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There are indications that Noli once used the name "Mavromati". See these Google results. Alas they're all in Albanian, which I can't read. Is there any Albanian who can determine the nature of this name, i.e. when and why he adopted it and dropped it again? 84.172.243.39 21:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
-
CarbonLifeForm 22:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Mavromati was probably his original family name. He was known in the Greek community of Alexandria under this name, which means that possibly someone from Greece who knew him better introduced him as a teacher to the community. Here is some info I found in a Greek site, taken from the book “Η Αίγυπτος των Ελλήνων» (The Egypt of the Greeks), by Manolis Gialourakis, 2006,
[1] :
In Egypt there was a flourishing Greek community of Cypriots, North Epirotes and others in
Shibin El Kom. This community established a Greek school where the young Theophanes Mavromatis was employed as a teacher after the departure of the previous teacher, Aristides Foutrides (
Aristides Phoutrides) to USA where he became Prof. of Classical Philoogy in Harvard and Yale.
Mavromatis was born either in Komotene (Thrace) or in Euboea and had Greek education. The book says that his mother was Greek, but his surname indicates that his father was also Greek.
While teaching in Shibin El Kom, he attempted to apply Albanian nationalistic propaganda to pupils. Their parents complained and was asked to leave from his first year as a teacher. He moved to the
Beni Suef Greek community school where he did the same and was asked again to leave after the first year. Then he moved to USA were he became a priest and was promoted rapidly to … “Bishop of Albania”!
Based in Boston he issued an Albanian news paper. It is there that he changed his name to Noli. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Euzen (
talk •
contribs) 19:07, 18 April 2012
That source is writing THEOFAN STILIAN NOLI , AND NOT MAVROMATI ... It can be thaaaaat simple . I am glad i helped all of you . Now please stop vandalizing the article claiming sources that show the exact opposite of what you claim them to be . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.170.170 ( talk) 17:53, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The link of the Albanian page on Fan Noli states that his surname was indeed Mavromati (black eye - in Greek), which can also be found on Albanian pages over the internet like this: http://koha.net/?id=8&arkiva=1&l=147149 " ... Këto tipare të staturës, Theofan Mavromati djalosh ... " — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vlad tepes 999 ( talk • contribs) 13:52, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Image:Fannoli.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 02:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:Fannoli.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 06:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Apart from this guy and Makarios III, does anyone know of anyone else who combined these things as Orthodox Christians. Are they unique? Eugene-elgato ( talk) 09:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Two users ( User:Gaius Claudius Nero and User:Aigest) deleted ( diff 1 and diff 2) referenced information about Noli's work on Skanderbeg. The explanations they provided were: "completely unnecessary" (Gaius Claudius Nero) and "irrelevant to the subject" (Aigest).
I believe that it is obvious that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is very relevant for Fan S. Noli and necessary to be presented in the article:
I think that based on the above presented arguments it is obvious that information about dissertation of Fan S. Noli is not "irrelevant to the subject" nor "completely unnecessary".
If you Gaius Claudius Nero and Aigest still believe that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is:
please provide some arguments.
If you don't provide arguments for your claims that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is "irrelevant to the subject" and "completely unnecessary" within reasonable period of time, I will conclude that we reached consensus that Noli's dissertation on Skanderbeg is not irrelevant to the Noli nor completely unnecessary and based on such consensus I will return referenced information you removed from the article.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
There is nothing funny about your removal of well referenced information about dissertation of Noli I added to this article. You should apology to me for false accusation for Wikihounding. I don't watch you, I watch this page. Please don't accuse me for malice without any reason and don't delete my cited additions.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
To emphasize the flaws in Noli's dissertation -- without providing a source to support that these flaws were or have been a significant point of interest, or that they were a repeating theme throughout Noli's life -- would be a matter of undue weight; one could equally argue that, because Noli fled Albania to avoid execution, he was a "criminal" (because only criminals are sentenced, right?. To mention that Biemmi's work served as the (or 'a'? Would it have been Noli's sole source?) basis for Noli's dissertation is relevant in our article on Biemmi, and it would be equally relevant in our article on Noli's dissertation (if we had one, which we don't -- you're free to write it!).
That said, it's not unreasonable to mention that the subject of his dissertation was Skanderbeg, which I propose as a compromise: "In 1945, Fan S. Noli received a doctor's degree in history from Boston University, writing a dissertation on Skanderbeg". How many sources were there in the dissertation, and of those, how many were subsequently found to have been flawed, and to what extent did this affect the overall idea of the dissertation? Answer: it doesn't honestly matter within the context of this article, just like it doesn't honestly matter to talk about how, when Noli was eight years old, he was cruel to a younger child, or how even after he became a priest, he still had lustful thoughts about women. DS ( talk) 15:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
There is an attempt to remove assertion referenced with work of Gregory C. Ference, historian who works for Salisbury University and who is specialized in "East Asian/East European history, Habsburgs". If there is any valid reason to remove this assertion it should be explained at this talk page. Until such explanation is given, this assertion will be restored. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, it happens quite a lot in Balkan topics that the same person can be found in different sources in a number of ethnicities. Fan Noli has just four different sources; others have much more (Mother Teresa for example). In order not to get into fringe theories, we should look up the reliability of these sources. It is clear that this article was POV-pushed in this part, as the Albanian 'posibility' of his ethnicity was not even written as a 'possibility' while a number of sources of course say he was Albanian. So, I had to add that. About the three other sources, I have to question their reliability.
1.
Athene; we have no author at all, we have no idea if it is a fictional, non-fictionl, historic, or whatever kind of book.
2.
Binder tells to us that Noli reputedly is of Vlach descent and just mentions him in a sentence, that goes on "and in the early years after World War II a number of Albanian Vlachs were elected to the ruling Communist Party's central committee. Tito's Yugoslavia also had a foreign minister, Koca Popovic, of Vlach ancestry, but he distanced himself from his wealthy origins and, indeed, the Yugoslav League of Communists did all it could to expropriate and marginalize previously prominent Vlach families.". It is clear that he himself does not base this alleged thesis on anything and thats why he says reputedly. Thus, I highly question this citation.
3.
Naval Review. This one is easier, we all will agree I think that a book written in 1928, when even Noli was young, fails to meet
WP:RS.
If in Balkans cases we are not careful in RS than every article would become rediculous. So, I guess, we would agree on this. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 09:09, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, USA and Britain are experts in producing "experts" on other people's history, nationality and politics. To remain in topic, I requested the quotation about Noli's family. It seems that Greek authors who are in better position to know the local affairs and languages (some may had met Noli personally), do not claim that they know much about his family. Untill someone (including Elsie) finds any family certificate stating that Noli's parents were Albanians, let us leave all sources equally presented, without question-marks. Maybe we can add something like "Sources are disagreeing ...". We have the case of an emerging personal national consciousness, possibly with some assistance from abroad.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 07:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Fan S. Noli. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Since there is no doubt that the name Theofanis Stylianos Mavromatis is Greek (it's cited), which happens to be the birth name of the subject, it should be also presented in the original form in the way Fan Noli wrote it down (when he attended Greek education and while was a Greek teacher). Alexikoua ( talk) 04:48, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
On the other hand I can name various occasions where ahistorical scripts are not only unnecessary but also ahistorical (modern Albanian name forms in 18th-19th Arvanite personalities for example). Alexikoua ( talk) 19:36, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There are indications that Noli once used the name "Mavromati". See these Google results. Alas they're all in Albanian, which I can't read. Is there any Albanian who can determine the nature of this name, i.e. when and why he adopted it and dropped it again? 84.172.243.39 21:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
-
CarbonLifeForm 22:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Mavromati was probably his original family name. He was known in the Greek community of Alexandria under this name, which means that possibly someone from Greece who knew him better introduced him as a teacher to the community. Here is some info I found in a Greek site, taken from the book “Η Αίγυπτος των Ελλήνων» (The Egypt of the Greeks), by Manolis Gialourakis, 2006,
[1] :
In Egypt there was a flourishing Greek community of Cypriots, North Epirotes and others in
Shibin El Kom. This community established a Greek school where the young Theophanes Mavromatis was employed as a teacher after the departure of the previous teacher, Aristides Foutrides (
Aristides Phoutrides) to USA where he became Prof. of Classical Philoogy in Harvard and Yale.
Mavromatis was born either in Komotene (Thrace) or in Euboea and had Greek education. The book says that his mother was Greek, but his surname indicates that his father was also Greek.
While teaching in Shibin El Kom, he attempted to apply Albanian nationalistic propaganda to pupils. Their parents complained and was asked to leave from his first year as a teacher. He moved to the
Beni Suef Greek community school where he did the same and was asked again to leave after the first year. Then he moved to USA were he became a priest and was promoted rapidly to … “Bishop of Albania”!
Based in Boston he issued an Albanian news paper. It is there that he changed his name to Noli. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Euzen (
talk •
contribs) 19:07, 18 April 2012
That source is writing THEOFAN STILIAN NOLI , AND NOT MAVROMATI ... It can be thaaaaat simple . I am glad i helped all of you . Now please stop vandalizing the article claiming sources that show the exact opposite of what you claim them to be . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.170.170 ( talk) 17:53, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The link of the Albanian page on Fan Noli states that his surname was indeed Mavromati (black eye - in Greek), which can also be found on Albanian pages over the internet like this: http://koha.net/?id=8&arkiva=1&l=147149 " ... Këto tipare të staturës, Theofan Mavromati djalosh ... " — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vlad tepes 999 ( talk • contribs) 13:52, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Image:Fannoli.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 02:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:Fannoli.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 06:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Apart from this guy and Makarios III, does anyone know of anyone else who combined these things as Orthodox Christians. Are they unique? Eugene-elgato ( talk) 09:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Two users ( User:Gaius Claudius Nero and User:Aigest) deleted ( diff 1 and diff 2) referenced information about Noli's work on Skanderbeg. The explanations they provided were: "completely unnecessary" (Gaius Claudius Nero) and "irrelevant to the subject" (Aigest).
I believe that it is obvious that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is very relevant for Fan S. Noli and necessary to be presented in the article:
I think that based on the above presented arguments it is obvious that information about dissertation of Fan S. Noli is not "irrelevant to the subject" nor "completely unnecessary".
If you Gaius Claudius Nero and Aigest still believe that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is:
please provide some arguments.
If you don't provide arguments for your claims that dissertation of Fan S. Noli is "irrelevant to the subject" and "completely unnecessary" within reasonable period of time, I will conclude that we reached consensus that Noli's dissertation on Skanderbeg is not irrelevant to the Noli nor completely unnecessary and based on such consensus I will return referenced information you removed from the article.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 13:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
There is nothing funny about your removal of well referenced information about dissertation of Noli I added to this article. You should apology to me for false accusation for Wikihounding. I don't watch you, I watch this page. Please don't accuse me for malice without any reason and don't delete my cited additions.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 17:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
To emphasize the flaws in Noli's dissertation -- without providing a source to support that these flaws were or have been a significant point of interest, or that they were a repeating theme throughout Noli's life -- would be a matter of undue weight; one could equally argue that, because Noli fled Albania to avoid execution, he was a "criminal" (because only criminals are sentenced, right?. To mention that Biemmi's work served as the (or 'a'? Would it have been Noli's sole source?) basis for Noli's dissertation is relevant in our article on Biemmi, and it would be equally relevant in our article on Noli's dissertation (if we had one, which we don't -- you're free to write it!).
That said, it's not unreasonable to mention that the subject of his dissertation was Skanderbeg, which I propose as a compromise: "In 1945, Fan S. Noli received a doctor's degree in history from Boston University, writing a dissertation on Skanderbeg". How many sources were there in the dissertation, and of those, how many were subsequently found to have been flawed, and to what extent did this affect the overall idea of the dissertation? Answer: it doesn't honestly matter within the context of this article, just like it doesn't honestly matter to talk about how, when Noli was eight years old, he was cruel to a younger child, or how even after he became a priest, he still had lustful thoughts about women. DS ( talk) 15:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
There is an attempt to remove assertion referenced with work of Gregory C. Ference, historian who works for Salisbury University and who is specialized in "East Asian/East European history, Habsburgs". If there is any valid reason to remove this assertion it should be explained at this talk page. Until such explanation is given, this assertion will be restored. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, it happens quite a lot in Balkan topics that the same person can be found in different sources in a number of ethnicities. Fan Noli has just four different sources; others have much more (Mother Teresa for example). In order not to get into fringe theories, we should look up the reliability of these sources. It is clear that this article was POV-pushed in this part, as the Albanian 'posibility' of his ethnicity was not even written as a 'possibility' while a number of sources of course say he was Albanian. So, I had to add that. About the three other sources, I have to question their reliability.
1.
Athene; we have no author at all, we have no idea if it is a fictional, non-fictionl, historic, or whatever kind of book.
2.
Binder tells to us that Noli reputedly is of Vlach descent and just mentions him in a sentence, that goes on "and in the early years after World War II a number of Albanian Vlachs were elected to the ruling Communist Party's central committee. Tito's Yugoslavia also had a foreign minister, Koca Popovic, of Vlach ancestry, but he distanced himself from his wealthy origins and, indeed, the Yugoslav League of Communists did all it could to expropriate and marginalize previously prominent Vlach families.". It is clear that he himself does not base this alleged thesis on anything and thats why he says reputedly. Thus, I highly question this citation.
3.
Naval Review. This one is easier, we all will agree I think that a book written in 1928, when even Noli was young, fails to meet
WP:RS.
If in Balkans cases we are not careful in RS than every article would become rediculous. So, I guess, we would agree on this. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 09:09, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, USA and Britain are experts in producing "experts" on other people's history, nationality and politics. To remain in topic, I requested the quotation about Noli's family. It seems that Greek authors who are in better position to know the local affairs and languages (some may had met Noli personally), do not claim that they know much about his family. Untill someone (including Elsie) finds any family certificate stating that Noli's parents were Albanians, let us leave all sources equally presented, without question-marks. Maybe we can add something like "Sources are disagreeing ...". We have the case of an emerging personal national consciousness, possibly with some assistance from abroad.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 07:50, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Fan S. Noli. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:09, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
Since there is no doubt that the name Theofanis Stylianos Mavromatis is Greek (it's cited), which happens to be the birth name of the subject, it should be also presented in the original form in the way Fan Noli wrote it down (when he attended Greek education and while was a Greek teacher). Alexikoua ( talk) 04:48, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
On the other hand I can name various occasions where ahistorical scripts are not only unnecessary but also ahistorical (modern Albanian name forms in 18th-19th Arvanite personalities for example). Alexikoua ( talk) 19:36, 12 July 2023 (UTC)