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Does anyone have any evidence as to whether Kieran Crotty is the son (or other relative) of Patrick Crotty? Their dates of birth, and the fact that Patrick succeeded Kieran at the 1969 general election [1] suggests that this Fine Gael seat in Carlow-Kilkenny may have been kept with the family … but it would be nice to have some evidence. The two men were both Mayors of Kilkenny, but the list of mayors on the Kilkenny Borough Council website offers no comment about any family relationship. I have searched the Dáil proceedings for the whole of Kieran Crotty's tenure as TD for any reference to "father" in his speeches, but without success. -- BrownHairedGirl ( talk • contribs) 12:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Several people called Belton have been TDs and Senators over the years, mostly for Dublin North or Dublin North East (see Beltons in the Oireachtas members database. Does anyone have any verifiable information on any family relationships between them? -- BrownHairedGirl ( talk • contribs) 15:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Avril Doyle is a member of the Belton family. From Avril Doyle's webpage: http://www.avrildoyle.ie/profile.htm
"Avril Doyle's extensive political experience has deep roots in her own family history, going back to the foundation of the State. Her father, Dr. Dick Belton, was a member of Oireachtas Eireann as was her grandfather, Paddy Belton, who was also Lord Mayor of Dublin. Two of Avril Doyle's uncles, Jack and Paddy Belton, were also Lord Mayors of Dublin and members of the Oireachtas. Two cousins of hers, Luke and Louis Belton, have also been members of the Oireachtas.
I've been reading the obituaries of the recently deceased Louis Belton TD and trying to figure out how he was related to the other Belton members of the Oireachtas.
The Irish Times says: "A grand-uncle, Paddy Belton, was elected to the Dáil in 1927."
The Irish Independent says: "The dynasty began with his grandfather, Patrick Belton from Rathcline, who was elected a Fianna Fáil TD in 1927 for Dublin County."
This page previously showed that Louis was Patrick/Paddy's nephew.
Two of the three must be wrong, and my analysis of birth, marriage and death records suggests that all three are actually wrong!
Am I correct in thinking that Louis and the first Belton TD were only first cousins once removed?
This would mean that Louis was second cousin once removed to Avril Doyle, close enough for her to claim him as a "cousin" of unspecified degree.
Technically, Louis does not appear to even qualify for this page. I'll leave him on the list for now with a footnote in the hope that the newspapers may eventually correct their errors. At least it is good to know that our media makes its own errors instead of either publishing the truth or copying the errors on Wikipedia! Pwaldron ( talk) 03:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Are Patick Clohessy, Farmer, Limerick East, FF, 1957-69, born 1908 and Peadar Clohessy, b1934, Farmer, Limerck East, FF/PD, 1981-97 related? - Rye1967 22:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Are Ray MacSharry, FF, Sligo and Marc MacSharry FF Senator, 2002- related?-- Rye1967 09:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
ElectionsIreland mentions Osmond, Anthony, John, and William. I haven't been able to identify the realationships. Burke's Peerage should help, but it doesn't really. Any thoughts?? JXM 16:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The intro to the article mentions family members succeeding each other in the same seat. But we've extended the list well beyond that narrow definition. I think I'll rework the opening sentences to reflect the wider definition. JXM 16:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
What would you think about extending this back to Westminster? I think Conor Cruise O'Brien and Owen Sheehy Skeffington would be more suitable listed with David Sheehy than Seán MacEntee. William Quill 13:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Per the links guidelines, I'd like to suggest that we unlink all the FF and FG links, and replace them with a note at the top identifying the abbreviations used. The two parties could then be linked from that note. Any objections? If nobody minds, I'll make the change in the next few days, or whenever I can get to it. Mike Christie (talk) 13:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Mother & daughter, and PHP for ref. Red Hurley 12:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
There are now two entries for the Brady family, one under 'B' and one under 'K' each with differing data. Convention has been to keep all relatives together in one place, even when there is more than one surname, see Lemass/Haughey. I propose we move the 'Brady' family to the Kitt section since the scion, Philip Brady, is not notable enough to have had his own page created by now.-- Rye1967 08:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I've added Bob Aylward, father of Liam Aylward and Bobby Aylward. Info from Liam Aylward's website [4]. There is an Edward Aylward who served as a Sinn Fein TD for Carlow-Kilkenny (same constituency as Liam and Bobby) from 1921-22 (2nd Dáil). Anyone know if he is a relation of theirs? Snappy56 12:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Added his brothers-in-law. Red Hurley 09:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The following is indeed important, and correct:
... but stating directly in the article text is contrary to avoid self-references. (And could be seen as protesting too much, really: it's not as if most of this is has references.) Alai ( talk) 13:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Thought we should have the Connolly family included; no comments about nepotism please. Like the Pearse and Collins families, this suggests a pensionary system for the offspring of the 1916 rebels which lasted for decades. Red Hurley ( talk) 17:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyone have any sources on whether there was any relationship between two FF TDs for Longford-Westmeath
The only reference I have found so far is http://www.irishidentity.com/extras/people/stories/doris.htm ... which doesn't look to me like a reliable source. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 03:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Davitt/Hogan-O'Higgins: On 8 January 1930, Patrick Hogan (Cumann na nGaedhael) married Mona Davitt, née Farrell, widow of Dr. Michael Davitt, who was brother of Robert Davitt (see Weekly Irish Times, 18 January 1930). There are numerous ways of describing this relationship, but does it fit within the specific criteria for this page?
There is an online Davitt pedigree [5] but it is riddled with errors!
Pwaldron ( talk) 19:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
We don't seem to be representing the reality of dynasties very well.
By focusing on Oireachtas/MEP members, a consistency problem arises when an original family ancestor was a Westminster MP. For example, MPs head the current listings that start with Alfie Byrne or TP Gill, which contravenes the article's introduction.
Furthermore, to be useful, the entry for Redmonds should really start with John Edward Redmond (1806-1865) and include several other family members. Tim Healy and Maurice Healy are the MPs that should begin the O'Higgins list and, as noted above, MP Robert Davitt (son of MP Michael Davitt), is linked to Patrick Hogan.
Maybe, as Snappy56 noted almost two years ago, we should consider renaming the article.
jxm ( talk) 23:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no consensus to move page at this time, per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:29, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Families in the Oireachtas →
Families in Irish Politics — Should show political dynasties that started before Dail and show relations in local government. —
Lostexpectation (
talk) 04:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Dail family trees show clans who rule Ireland, Sunday Independent. Fianna Fail political dynasties, Sunday Independent. -- can dle • wicke 15:47, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
They are related but can anyone tell us when the spelling changed? Perhaps a typo repeated. Red Hurley ( talk) 13:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Here is a new angle - Kevin O'Higgins was the grandson of Timothy Daniel Sullivan and the nephew of Tim Healy, so in a day or so I propose moving the enormous O'Higgins clan under S for Sullivan. Any objections? Red Hurley ( talk) 07:22, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Henry Eustace Guinness, 8th Senate, no article yet, was the MD of Guinness Mahon in the 1940s. 86.42.215.68 ( talk) 13:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
There is conflicting evidence in the Irish Times archive and in various other online sources about the relationship between Patrick Hillery and Brian Hillery. The official biography of Patrick Hillery says that his only brother (Des) was born in 1921, suspiciously early to be the father of Brian, whose Wikipedia entry says he was born in 1937, although Brian is frequently described as Patrick's nephew (e.g. [8]). In any case, Brian's father was Thomas (Irish Times, 18 Apr 1970) and Patrick had an uncle Thomas (9 in 1901 census [9], 20 in 1911 census [10]). If these are the same Thomas Hillery, then Patrick and Brian should be noted here and in their individual articles as first cousins. Pwaldron ( talk) 13:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Should the rules for inclusion be altered to allow for the tiny number of families which have included both a member of the Oireachtas and a member of the House of Commons who either sat for a non-Irish constituency or sat after 1922? Henry McDevitt TD and his grandson Mark Reckless MP may even be the only such example. Does anyone know of other such cases? Pwaldron ( talk) 11:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Families in the Oireachtas/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have increased this article's importance from low to mid. I may be biased as the article's initial creator, bit it seems to me that it provides an important illustration of the importance of families in Irish politics. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 20:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 20:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Lisa Chambers is identified here as Frank Chambers' niece. However, Frank Chambers' own page explicitly states that Frank Chambers' daughter, Lisa, is not the Lisa Chambers who is currently (2023) a Fianna Fáil Senator: /info/en/?search=Frank_Chambers
Which is correct? Amunnelly ( talk) 10:34, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Does anyone have any evidence as to whether Kieran Crotty is the son (or other relative) of Patrick Crotty? Their dates of birth, and the fact that Patrick succeeded Kieran at the 1969 general election [1] suggests that this Fine Gael seat in Carlow-Kilkenny may have been kept with the family … but it would be nice to have some evidence. The two men were both Mayors of Kilkenny, but the list of mayors on the Kilkenny Borough Council website offers no comment about any family relationship. I have searched the Dáil proceedings for the whole of Kieran Crotty's tenure as TD for any reference to "father" in his speeches, but without success. -- BrownHairedGirl ( talk • contribs) 12:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Several people called Belton have been TDs and Senators over the years, mostly for Dublin North or Dublin North East (see Beltons in the Oireachtas members database. Does anyone have any verifiable information on any family relationships between them? -- BrownHairedGirl ( talk • contribs) 15:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Avril Doyle is a member of the Belton family. From Avril Doyle's webpage: http://www.avrildoyle.ie/profile.htm
"Avril Doyle's extensive political experience has deep roots in her own family history, going back to the foundation of the State. Her father, Dr. Dick Belton, was a member of Oireachtas Eireann as was her grandfather, Paddy Belton, who was also Lord Mayor of Dublin. Two of Avril Doyle's uncles, Jack and Paddy Belton, were also Lord Mayors of Dublin and members of the Oireachtas. Two cousins of hers, Luke and Louis Belton, have also been members of the Oireachtas.
I've been reading the obituaries of the recently deceased Louis Belton TD and trying to figure out how he was related to the other Belton members of the Oireachtas.
The Irish Times says: "A grand-uncle, Paddy Belton, was elected to the Dáil in 1927."
The Irish Independent says: "The dynasty began with his grandfather, Patrick Belton from Rathcline, who was elected a Fianna Fáil TD in 1927 for Dublin County."
This page previously showed that Louis was Patrick/Paddy's nephew.
Two of the three must be wrong, and my analysis of birth, marriage and death records suggests that all three are actually wrong!
Am I correct in thinking that Louis and the first Belton TD were only first cousins once removed?
This would mean that Louis was second cousin once removed to Avril Doyle, close enough for her to claim him as a "cousin" of unspecified degree.
Technically, Louis does not appear to even qualify for this page. I'll leave him on the list for now with a footnote in the hope that the newspapers may eventually correct their errors. At least it is good to know that our media makes its own errors instead of either publishing the truth or copying the errors on Wikipedia! Pwaldron ( talk) 03:11, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Are Patick Clohessy, Farmer, Limerick East, FF, 1957-69, born 1908 and Peadar Clohessy, b1934, Farmer, Limerck East, FF/PD, 1981-97 related? - Rye1967 22:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Are Ray MacSharry, FF, Sligo and Marc MacSharry FF Senator, 2002- related?-- Rye1967 09:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
ElectionsIreland mentions Osmond, Anthony, John, and William. I haven't been able to identify the realationships. Burke's Peerage should help, but it doesn't really. Any thoughts?? JXM 16:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The intro to the article mentions family members succeeding each other in the same seat. But we've extended the list well beyond that narrow definition. I think I'll rework the opening sentences to reflect the wider definition. JXM 16:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
What would you think about extending this back to Westminster? I think Conor Cruise O'Brien and Owen Sheehy Skeffington would be more suitable listed with David Sheehy than Seán MacEntee. William Quill 13:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Per the links guidelines, I'd like to suggest that we unlink all the FF and FG links, and replace them with a note at the top identifying the abbreviations used. The two parties could then be linked from that note. Any objections? If nobody minds, I'll make the change in the next few days, or whenever I can get to it. Mike Christie (talk) 13:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Mother & daughter, and PHP for ref. Red Hurley 12:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
There are now two entries for the Brady family, one under 'B' and one under 'K' each with differing data. Convention has been to keep all relatives together in one place, even when there is more than one surname, see Lemass/Haughey. I propose we move the 'Brady' family to the Kitt section since the scion, Philip Brady, is not notable enough to have had his own page created by now.-- Rye1967 08:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I've added Bob Aylward, father of Liam Aylward and Bobby Aylward. Info from Liam Aylward's website [4]. There is an Edward Aylward who served as a Sinn Fein TD for Carlow-Kilkenny (same constituency as Liam and Bobby) from 1921-22 (2nd Dáil). Anyone know if he is a relation of theirs? Snappy56 12:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Added his brothers-in-law. Red Hurley 09:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
The following is indeed important, and correct:
... but stating directly in the article text is contrary to avoid self-references. (And could be seen as protesting too much, really: it's not as if most of this is has references.) Alai ( talk) 13:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Thought we should have the Connolly family included; no comments about nepotism please. Like the Pearse and Collins families, this suggests a pensionary system for the offspring of the 1916 rebels which lasted for decades. Red Hurley ( talk) 17:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyone have any sources on whether there was any relationship between two FF TDs for Longford-Westmeath
The only reference I have found so far is http://www.irishidentity.com/extras/people/stories/doris.htm ... which doesn't look to me like a reliable source. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 03:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Davitt/Hogan-O'Higgins: On 8 January 1930, Patrick Hogan (Cumann na nGaedhael) married Mona Davitt, née Farrell, widow of Dr. Michael Davitt, who was brother of Robert Davitt (see Weekly Irish Times, 18 January 1930). There are numerous ways of describing this relationship, but does it fit within the specific criteria for this page?
There is an online Davitt pedigree [5] but it is riddled with errors!
Pwaldron ( talk) 19:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
We don't seem to be representing the reality of dynasties very well.
By focusing on Oireachtas/MEP members, a consistency problem arises when an original family ancestor was a Westminster MP. For example, MPs head the current listings that start with Alfie Byrne or TP Gill, which contravenes the article's introduction.
Furthermore, to be useful, the entry for Redmonds should really start with John Edward Redmond (1806-1865) and include several other family members. Tim Healy and Maurice Healy are the MPs that should begin the O'Higgins list and, as noted above, MP Robert Davitt (son of MP Michael Davitt), is linked to Patrick Hogan.
Maybe, as Snappy56 noted almost two years ago, we should consider renaming the article.
jxm ( talk) 23:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was no consensus to move page at this time, per discussion below. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:29, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Families in the Oireachtas →
Families in Irish Politics — Should show political dynasties that started before Dail and show relations in local government. —
Lostexpectation (
talk) 04:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Dail family trees show clans who rule Ireland, Sunday Independent. Fianna Fail political dynasties, Sunday Independent. -- can dle • wicke 15:47, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
They are related but can anyone tell us when the spelling changed? Perhaps a typo repeated. Red Hurley ( talk) 13:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Here is a new angle - Kevin O'Higgins was the grandson of Timothy Daniel Sullivan and the nephew of Tim Healy, so in a day or so I propose moving the enormous O'Higgins clan under S for Sullivan. Any objections? Red Hurley ( talk) 07:22, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Henry Eustace Guinness, 8th Senate, no article yet, was the MD of Guinness Mahon in the 1940s. 86.42.215.68 ( talk) 13:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
There is conflicting evidence in the Irish Times archive and in various other online sources about the relationship between Patrick Hillery and Brian Hillery. The official biography of Patrick Hillery says that his only brother (Des) was born in 1921, suspiciously early to be the father of Brian, whose Wikipedia entry says he was born in 1937, although Brian is frequently described as Patrick's nephew (e.g. [8]). In any case, Brian's father was Thomas (Irish Times, 18 Apr 1970) and Patrick had an uncle Thomas (9 in 1901 census [9], 20 in 1911 census [10]). If these are the same Thomas Hillery, then Patrick and Brian should be noted here and in their individual articles as first cousins. Pwaldron ( talk) 13:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Should the rules for inclusion be altered to allow for the tiny number of families which have included both a member of the Oireachtas and a member of the House of Commons who either sat for a non-Irish constituency or sat after 1922? Henry McDevitt TD and his grandson Mark Reckless MP may even be the only such example. Does anyone know of other such cases? Pwaldron ( talk) 11:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Families in the Oireachtas/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
I have increased this article's importance from low to mid. I may be biased as the article's initial creator, bit it seems to me that it provides an important illustration of the importance of families in Irish politics. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 20:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 20:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Lisa Chambers is identified here as Frank Chambers' niece. However, Frank Chambers' own page explicitly states that Frank Chambers' daughter, Lisa, is not the Lisa Chambers who is currently (2023) a Fianna Fáil Senator: /info/en/?search=Frank_Chambers
Which is correct? Amunnelly ( talk) 10:34, 27 September 2023 (UTC)