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Archived discussion:
No Tomanda, what I'm saying is that the suggested phenomena is quite rare, that there is little controvesy amongst pratitioners over whether or not to believe or agree with Mr. Li, and that it is thus not worth mentioning. If someone has practiced in a spirtual disciple like Falun Gong for 10 years, then I highly doubt that they would disagree with their teacher. I explained above, from my own experience, how common practitioners regard Mr. Li's words, but this form of relationship is not unique to Falun Gong nor is it necessarily cult-like. Do Christians question the Bible? Do Buddhists question the Dharma? Do Daoist disciples question their masters? If this is the criterion of mind control, then I think you've got a problem with just about every major religion or spiritual discipline. All of the abovementioned things that you told me to "think about" have related concepts in Christianity and other religions as well. So are you suggesting that all devout religious practitioners cannot think for themselves and thus victims of mind control? As for objectivity: This article is about Falun Gong. Falun Gong practitioners believe in Falun Gong. I think it's pretty obvious that practitioners will not disagree with what they believe in, and are thus more apt to include positive information. You, on the other hand, don't like Falun Gong and are clearly more apt to include critical information. We all have our biases, but that doesn't mean that we can't be objective or add to the objectivity of the article. Wikipedia articles become objective through the input of different people with different opinions, not through completely objective individuals. If you have an interest in something enough to spend the time to help edit its wiki article, then how can you not have biases and opinions?
The title of your post was "If you "believe everything Li says" what's the point of reporting "your own" beliefs about Falun Dafa in Wikipedia?" I said before that all practitioners interpret the teachings of Falun Gong according to their own understanding. Of course we will agree on fundamental things, such as whether or not Falun exist, but going past the fundamentals the teachings are broad and lend to many different interpretations and understandings. Besides, since when are editors suppost to report their own beliefs in Wikipedia? Mcconn 14:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
And I hope that some day you will recoginze the goodness and purity of Dafa. Perhaps "question" wasn't the right choice of words. "Disagree with" probably better expresses my meaning. Practitioners actually are always questioning the teachings, but not disagreeing with them. Questioning is encouraged and a major part of the practice. That's why Mr. Li spends so much time answering questions from practitioners at most of his lectures. Do you think Sakyamuni or Jesus's disciples disagreed with their teachers? No way. If you ask me I'd say that Falun Dafa's emphasis on principles rather than precepts and rules makes it far less restraining than Buddhism or Christianity. Moreover, when Jesus and Sakyamuni taught their practices they required their disciples to renounce everything in the world and go with them into the forest. That seems like a lot more control than Mr. Li has. For the record, I'm not against these religions at all, I'm just making a point. Mcconn 02:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
There is some controversy within the Falun Gong community concerning Li's teachings on homosexuality. [1]Some practitioners have stated that each practitioner speaks for himself concerning this issue, while others claim that Li's teachings are directed towards practitioners for personal guidance and self-cultivation, rather than to discriminate against or judge others. Most practitioners seem to agree with Li that homosexuality is not an inborn trait, but instead reflects deviations from the natural order that have occurred at the higher levels. These deviations are considered to be part of the cause of homosexuality and part of the need for Fa-rectification.
-- Samuel Luo 04:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I am moving Tomanada’s paragraph in Falun Gong and sexual orientation section to this page. The views of practitioners can not be verified and therefore should only be discussed in the discussion page. This shortens the length of the article and ensures the focus on Falun Gong belief system. -- Samuel Luo 04:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Yep, that's right. Getting a bunch of email spam from FLG lately. Getting more and more desperate, they are. -- Миборовский U| T| C| M| E| Chugoku Banzai! 23:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I hope that with the split, the main article can be a short, reliable, and detached description about Falun Gong, written for the curious outsider. I very much encourage everyone to add information about the finer points of FG's teachings, history, and persecution, but please do so in the appropriate new articles. Weel 12:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We must say no to this attempt to subvert the work of many editors over these long weeks. Claiming he has simply split the article, Weel has done a major re-write which obscures or deletes all together the content critical of the Falun Gong. Worse yet, Weel has actually deleted some of the discusssion content as well. For example, he carried over an edited version of Olaf's post, without also carrying over my response to Olaf's post. This is an outrageous violation of Wikipedia editing standards. -- Tomananda 18:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Your right that this should be discussed first, but I think since so much work has already been put in to split it that we shouldn't just revert it. At least give Weel a chance to defend it. I'm fairly impartial to the split, but if, after a bit of discussion, it seems like a good idea then perhaps we can use what weel has done as base. Mcconn 02:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
This issue has dragged on for quite a while, and the section is the subject of constant editing by myself and others. I just made a bunch of changes to the section that I have address here. I removed the ZFL II quote and the poem. The section is already full of quotes on the same issue and amidst all of the other quotes these two do very little to clarify Falun Gong's, or Mr. Li's, stance or belief on this issue. The ZFL II quote is a single sentence taken out of its context and is rather unclear to begin with. It addresses the mental state of homosexuality, which is similarly (although not identically) mentioned in the Frankfurt quote. The seriousness to which Mr. Li holds homosexuality in the poem is clearly indicated in the statement about gods targeting homosexuals if not for Fa-rectification. I am not going to comment on the intentions of some of the editors, but I will say that if your really want people to understand how Falun Dafa regards homosexuality then you might as well fill the page with everything that Mr. Li has ever written about cultivation, understanding others, compassion toward others, mankind's degredation, lust, sentimentality, etc. This to say that you can fill the page on everything Mr. Li has ever said about homosexuality (which we've pretty much done), but once it gets to a certain point it becomes just so out of context that there's no way it can be understood accurately. This is because Mr. Li speaks to practitioners at his lectures, people who he knows will understand his words within the context of the whole system. No matter how many individual quotes you include you will never present a clear picture as he words were never meant to be examined in this way. For tbe same reasons, I still am not happy with this section, even after my current edits. Maybe Tomanda will label this appologitics, that's his or her opinion, which is fine, but my intention is to help people understand Falun Dafa for what it is rather than for the interesting or shocking things Mr. Li has said. In my opinion, the only way to gain a fair understanding of Falun Gong is to read the teachings yourself, yet I realize that not everyone who wants to learn about Falun Gong is willing to do that. So I'm doing what I can to keep the article as fair and accurate as possible. Mcconn 17:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Tomananda 20:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Please refer to my post below on how I believe we should treat and speak with one another. It is simply not true that I'm uncomfortable with Mr. Li's teachings on homosexuality and I believe that I've made that clear. Yet, I am uncomfortable with these particular teachings being presented in a way that may misguide readers' understandings of thier role and context within Falun Gong. In my edit I gave the quotes more context and made the section more readable. If you think that any of my words were opinionated then please point them out so that others and myself can know. I explained above why I cut out two of the quotes. They don't add enough to the article at this point. We are writing an article here, rather than simply listing quotes. It has to be readable, clear, and to the point. I think my changes help that without taking away from the explaination. Also, the criticism quote at the end is hardly related. It begins by criticising Falun Gong's view on homosexuality, but then goes into into supposed "fear tactics". Those really have nothing to do with this section and take away from the focus. We must bear in mind that this is not an argumentative essay in which every point must be argued. These kinds of criticisms should only be inserted when they are very pertinent and inline with the topic. The focus should be on the information, not whether some people agree or disagree with it. I'm not saying that there should be no criticisms, I'm just commenting on their place. Also, the sentence "But with Fa-rectification, homosexuals are given the opportunity to renounce their sexual behavior (and presumably live a celibate life)" is fairly opinionated. It's not included in my edit because, through the arrangement of quotes and commments, it's explained in other, less opinionized ways. I understand that I can't quote a practitioner in the way that I did, and I will act on Tomanda's suggestion and try to find a suitable quote. Mcconn 20:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
In recent weeks the Falun Gong article has become quite chaotic. With lots of new material being added to the article there have been a lot of disagreements, which have in turn lead to incessant reverting. I don’t think any of us like to have our hard work reverted, and especially when feel that very little reason was given why. Some of the current editors here come from very different points of view, which makes it almost impossible for us to be able to agree on everything and be happy with it. At times we disagree and revert so much that it almost turns into a war. But I think we need to try harder to work together (I am not pointing any fingers by saying this, and do not hold myself exempt from this at all), so I think we all need to examine our editing practices.
Very few of our edits are explained on the talk page, which I think is a problem. Since there is such discord amongst us, I think it is necessary that we fully explain each edit we make on the talk page from now on. And if someone doesn’t like what you put in and chooses to revert or change it, they can explain why in the talk page rather than simply reverting and writing an insufficient one-sentence edit summary. When commenting on an edit in the talk page I think we should also thoroughly consider the other editors by trying to explain ourselves very clearly and in a way that is easy for everyone to understand. I don’t think that through doing this we will all be able to agree on everything or always come to a consensus on everything, but I think it will do a little to restore some order (which I think will make all of us happier).
We also need to re-examine how we look at and treat one another. Wikipedia’s simplified ruleset lists a few things that I believe some of us are lacking here. I’ve pasted a few summaries below and I encourage everyone to read them through. Primarily though, I think we need to work on mutual respect and assuming good faith. I think a lot of tension has come from not respecting each other or assuming bad or improper intentions.
Another thing, we do all have our opinions on Falun Gong, most of which are very strong, but we should each be careful in thinking we are right. Personally, on at least one occasion in the past I have made edits which I thought were very good, but were then replaced with material that I really disagreed with. Rather than reassessing my edit, I reverted it, believing that I was right. It was then reverted again of course and maybe one more time, but eventually I reassessed my edit and realized there were some problems and altered it. I think we need to keep this kind of mindset from the start though, rather than only after an revert war. When our changes are reverted, we need to truly consider why (trying our best to assume good faith) and reassess what we’ve done. Maybe it turns out that there’s nothing wrong with what you wrote and the reverter is misguided or doesn’t understand, well…, then take it to the talk page.
This is a lengthy post and all it’s I’ll say about this for now. I hope each editor will take it seriously and add their own thoughts and ideas about how to improve our working together.
A few things to consider:
Mcconn 19:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Mcconn: You amaze me! You write a long plea for cooperation and mutual respect. Then you go and revert a long-standing and much discussed section on Falun gong and sexual orientation to a new version you have recently written, effectively deleting my work and the work of others over these many weeks. The one standard of conduct you do not mention in your post above is this:
1. When editing, don't do so at the expense of other editors' work. Rather than deleting content of others you should add to it whenever possible.
Again I ask you to stop provoking this revert war. You are free to add content to this section. But when you delete important quotes from Li or the summary of Deng and Fang's opinions on Li's use of fear to indoctrinate people I or others will revert it because we must.
Homosexuals are singled out by Li for a special level of punishment and that fact alone calls for some commentary. Li also has made different pronouncements on what he considers to be the "cause" of homosexuality, its nature and it's consequences. All of this information deserves to be covered in this section. I'm sorry that Li's teachings on homosexuality don't fit neatly into a package to your liking. Li sometimes contradicts himself and sometimes says things that make others uncomfortable. But for you to pursue an endless revert war merely because you don't want this information to appear in Wikipedia is unacceptable. You've made a passionate plea for cooperation above and now is the time to put your words into action. -- Tomananda 21:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
1. Li's view (not the view of Gods) of the status of homosexuals as people. (eg: we have dark hearts turning demonic) and how Li and the God's think we are "filthy" and subject to elimination. 2. Li's view about the morality of homosexuality (one of the world's ten evils)and something that brings karma upon oneself. 3. Li's view of of the "causes" of homosexuality. Two examples: a) it's because we have a "dirty mental abnormality" (some kind of mental illness) and b) it's because we experienced "postnatally-formed bad things" 3. Li's view about the consequences of being a homosexual (we may suffer a particularly painful and slow elimination process) and a specific explanation of what might be required to avoid those consequences (presumably living a celebate life.) 4. Finally, some critical commentary on all the above, which I have provided by summarizing Deng and Fang. They situate Li's views on homosexuality into the larger context of what they consider fear tactics done by Li in order to indoctrinate and control people.
I agree with Mcconn that even though we differ in our opinion about the Falun Gong, we can still respect each other. A good way to show this respect is to give a justification for our editing, especially when deleting. The following is a list of sentences deleted from the introduction, justification is given in parenthesis.
1. In fact, the swastika is one of the oldest known symbols dating back 10,000 years, and it's frequently found on Hindu iconography, ancient Greek architecture and paintings, as well as ancient statues of the Buddha [1]. (This statement needs to be sourced)
2. The assembly was prompted by reports of violence and harassment inflicted upon practitioners by Chinese police in the city of Tianjin, as well as a ban on publishing Falun Dafa materials. (This statement needs to be sourced)
3. and the government's reaction to that particular incident was not sympathetic. (POV)
4. There being no concept of membership and only loose organization in Falun Gong practice, the actual number of practitioners is unknown. (This statement is not sourced and is not needed here)
5. However, The New York Times mentioned a figure of 70 million in at least two articles, both released 27th of April, 1999 - one of them written by Seth Faison and another by Joseph Kahn, who professed that "Beijing puts the tally of ... followers at 70 million" [3] [4]. According to the articles, this was the estimate of China's State Sports Administration. (Quoting from a secondary source which provides contradictory figures from the original source (the Chinese government) does not make sense.)
6. The CCP has burned and destroyed books and other materials about Falun Gong, and blocked access to internet resources about the topic. Several reported cases of illegal imprisonment and torture of practitioners have been reported. Treatment of Falun Gong practitioners has been regarded in the West as a major international human rights issue affecting freedom of religion and freedom of speech. (The ban of the Falun Gong is mentioned in the intro. this information belongs to government crackdown section)
Also, the sentence “According to a Chinese state-sponsored news report published six days after the persecution of Falun Gong officially began” in origins section is inappropriate. How would you like it if I added the following statement “According to the Falun Gong which is considered a deceptive cult by American cult experts” to all statements from the Epoch Times and the group?
We certainly should be very careful when quoting from Chinese media which is no doubt controlled by the government. If we can refute any information from the Chinese media by using other sources we should do so. But there is no justification to exclude reports merely because they come from the Chinese media.
-- Samuel Luo 19:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
- Mcconn: You are missing the point here. I have correctly summarized Li's teachings in the Switzerland speech concerning the painful and slow punishment homosexuals will go through. It's clear that Li does single out homosexuals for this punishment for not behaing as human beings. If there is another class of people Li has singled out in the same way, then by all means you should add that information to this section. But there is no justification for deleting this information.-- Tomananda 20:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Mcconn: Again, your point is irrelevant. The fact that other religions might engage in fear tactics does not mean we shouldn't report critical opinion about the fear tactics Li uses in the Falun Gong. The paragraph is biased because it represents the POV of critics, and that is ok. Your role is to add to the section some other commentary which counters that. Again, we should add to the edit, not just delete. Go back and look at the Cult section as a model.-- Tomananda 20:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Both movements use swastikas. We have long been living in an age whereby we can no longer claim that one hemisphere's use of the swastika is totally independent of and unconnected to that of the other. But the key similarity of both swastika-proud movements is an apparent credence in an ultimately racist dogma of racial purity. True, Falun Gong isn't advocating 'ethnic cleansing' (nor did the Nazis prior to empowerment, nor did they ever admit to its occurrence) - but to those in interracial marriages and families, its condemnation of same must appear to amount to some degree of unhelpful interference, if not persecution? It is all too obviously apparent that a frustrated Chinese electorate, denied the opportunity to form alternative political parties (including, presumably, an alternative communist party) has resorted to an ultimately flawed attempt to 'cock a snook' at the ageing hierarchy and assert itself. Tomananda (above) speaks of an 'endless revert war;' the same applies on this aspect of the topic. 'You win again, so easily' - but not the moral victory. Etaonsh 17:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
But by refocusing attention on ancient religion and away from modern history in your otherwise informative discourse on the symbols, you are merely reasserting the bias of one side in this ongoing contemporary Chinese struggle. Etaonsh 23:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Fire Star 00:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
No-one is disputing the symbol's ancient eastern religious provenance, so there is no need to keep rehearsing it bigtime. But I think we need to turn the whole argument on its head, and ask why Hitler chose such a symbol - surely to curry favour with what are de facto extreme right wing traditions of the East, while secretly exterminating Jews in Europe? Etaonsh 06:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
See: [ [2]]. Etaonsh 10:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Ideology of a group is much more important than its emblem. The symbol in question has been widely used by legitimate religious groups in the east, but many Falun Gong teachings, particularly those about race and homosexuality have not. -- Samuel Luo 01:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the symbol is not a surefire guarantee of extreme right wing ideology - after all, I am myself a current member of the Theosophical Society, which uses a fylfot at the top of its badge. On the other hand, I must admit to some ongoing uncertainty about its use, and am unable to absolve all other Theosophists of the association, particularly in the past and particularly in Germany's past. Etaonsh 06:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
"Without his personal intervention, they cannot be saved," doesn't that sound like a cult leader? -- Samuel Luo 03:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
There is a connection between Falun Gong and Nazism, but it is based on underlying social philopsophy, not symbols. Many people are unaware that early Nazism based its racial value system on the work of American and British academics working in a field called "eugenics." The idea that one race is superior to another, or that pure race people are superior to mixed race people derived directly from the eugenics movement popular in the US and Britain in the 1920's and 1930's (but going back as far as the 1880's). Researchers would trace entire family histories in order to determine characteristics that they consired indicative of degeneracy. In America, there were even some forced sterilizations justified by the eugenics movement. Every time Li uses the word "degenerated" and applies it to a class of human being he considers suitable for elimination in his Fa-rectification I think of those early eugenics fanatics. Admittedly, Hitler applied the theory of eugenics further than any American or British researcher ever contemplated. I am not suggesting that Li advocates the extermination of "degenerate" people in this world, but he certainly does predict the spiritual elimination of "degenerate" people as part of his Fa-rectification. The similarity between Li's teachings on the "weeding out" of people and the eugenics movement is unmistakable. The main difference is that the Western eugenics movement envisioned implementing their wacky ideas in the real world as a matter of social policy, while Li only thinks in terms of future eliminations in the spiritual world. Thus it's reasonable to consider Li's teaching of Fa-rectification as a bizarre kind of "spiritual eugenics." For further reading on this subject, get a copy of Edwin Black's War Against the Weak: Eugenics and America's Campaign to Create a Master Race -- Tomananda 07:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with and commend all of that, except for the phrase 'not symbols.' The clear truth of the matter is that most of us, East or West, who are cognizant of modern history and the use of symbols herein, would run a mile before agreeing to the use of swastikas/fylfots for our favorite social movement. The restrained people of contemporary China are politically somewhat in the unfortunate position indicated by the old saw 'Beggars can't be choosers.' Etaonsh 08:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion: Does anyone feel up to expanding the section on mixed-race people in the article to include a broader report on Li's racist teachings? Here are some quotes to get you started:
No Orientals in Jesus' Paradise (what happens to Chinese Christians when they die?) "I have also found no oriental people in Jesus’ paradise. It is very sad! People in modern times do not listen to the words of their Lord, and the oriental people do not listen to the Buddha’s teaching either. . . . I have also found no white people in a Buddha’s paradise in the past." Falun Dafa Lecture (Sydney, Australia), p.29.
No Place for Chinese People in the White Man's World "So whenever I meet with my disciples, I tell them this: make sure your children learn Chinese and don’t lose the characteristics of the yellow race. Since there is not place for you in the worlds of the white people, you will still return to the world of the yellow people." “Exposition of Falun Dafa in the New York Seminar” (March 22, 1997), p. 32.
White People are Too Dumb to Understand Li's Dafa "People of the white race have a different way of thinking from people of the yellow race, like us, so you should take their special traits into consideration. Don’t baffle them by using the very complicated ways of thinking and language. That would make them think: “this is too difficult” Falun Dafa Lecture at the First Conference in North America. (New York, March 29-30, 1998), p. 14. -- Tomananda 08:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Li also appears to be ethnocentric, even racist. He has proclaimed that all races and ethnicities originated in China in their first incarnation. Only in later, more degenerate incarnations were these Chinese people born as members of other races and ethnicities: “No matter which country you're in, you were first Chinese on this earth.” [3] He gives examples: “Today's Americans were people of the Great Ming dynasty… England was the Great Tang, France was the Great Qing, Italy was the Yuan, Australia was the Xia, Russia was the Zhou, Sweden was the Northern Song,…Japan was the Sui. In those times, people from each dynasty left China and reincarnated to places that didn't have the countries that are there now--they were still rugged wilderness.” [4]
-- Samuel Luo 23:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Removed the statement in paragraph 2 "There are connections between Nazism and Falun Gong." Gramatically and likely factually incorrect. Please cite sources when possible. Reinstate if this edit is in error.
-- JS
I apologize for being a little harsh in my editional comments. I've been away for a while, and now that I returned, I noticed that there had been a lot of dubious changes.
I think it's important to mention that at least two American journalists had also given the figure of 70 million practitioners and that the source for this number was State Sports Administration. Now somebody had formulated the first chapter as if Falun Gong was only trying to exaggerate.
I removed the selections from Li's biography. We have discussed it before. As far as I recall, Fire Star said that we cannot use it as a source, because it's no longer in print. It's hard to verify any selections.
Li has never said that non-practitioner homosexuals have to give up their behaviour or meet with ultimate punishment. I don't understand why you feel that you can include your own "presumptions" in the article. (..."and presumably live a celibate life"...)
Also, I hoped that my reminder about the Wikipedia policies would've had an effect. It didn't. People are still using unauthorized sources for making conclusive allegations (such as "Li's neighbors and brother-in-law have stated..."). Please keep in mind: this is a non-partisan encyclopedia article, not an "exposé"! It would be nice if you learned to report your own POV with a certain self-reflectivity. At a minimum you could say "According to [my eminent source], [X and Y] have stated...". But you can't use any source you please.
Regards, --- Olaf Stephanos 22:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The government has estimated the membership of Falun Gong in China at 2.1 million not 70 million. The New York Times reporters who used the high figure could have been misled by practitioners working in the government since this figure has only been claimed by the group. There were practitioners working in key positions in the government, note the following statement from a Wall Street Journal report. “Mr. Wang produces reams of information on Falun Dafa from files in his cramped office. As a researcher in the institute's (China Wushu Research Institute ) qi gong department, he is charged with writing the reports assessing Falun Dafa and other groups under investigation. And Mr. Wang is a devoted follower of Mr. Li.” [5]
I believe it is best to quote directly from the source, in this case the Chinese government. Quoting from an indirect source which provides contradicting figures from the source does not make sense. Don’t you agree? I have asked almost every practitioner I met since 1999 the whereabouts of 30 million practitioners outside of China claimed by Master Li and the group. Do you know where they are? Yes, I believe Falun Gong’s “70 million in China and 30 million outside of China” claim an exaggeration.
I can understand that a non-practitioner would want to exclude Li’s statements, but I can not understand why a practitioner would also want to delete his statements from the article. Are you ashamed of his claims or just want to conceal what he said? Li’s autobiography should stand. It was used to introduce the Master to the public from 1992 to 1999; many practitioners came to know Li from it.
I believe I have followed Wikipedia’s policy. The people quoted had socialized with Master Li and their accounts are all first person accounts. Also the ban of the Falun Gong is mentioned in the intro, all the extra stuff about the ban belongs to the Falun Gong persecution section.
How can you accuse me of not using the magic word “according to” when my sentence did start with it? -- Samuel Luo 01:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Olaf, but Li has most certainly said that homosexuals should give up their "bad behavior" in order to avoid whatever scary consequences he thinks will result from people loving other people of the same gender. Do you agree with that? And if you agree with that, then it's definitional to say that "giving up bad behavior" for a homosexual equates to "giving up sex" which equates to "living a celibate life." How can you with a straight face (no pun intended) say otherwise? You truly baffle me. Unless you can provide a more logical explanation for your challenge to my wording, that wording shall stand. I will do the revert now. -- Tomananda 23:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not.
Sure, Li has said that if you want to practice cultivation in Falun Dafa, you ought to give up homosexual behaviour. That would probably mean a celibate life for you. But how does this apply to society at large? Isn't it obvious that you, for instance, don't want to cultivate according to Li's teachings?
Li said in Los Angeles (25 February 2006): "They [= homosexuals] are sentient beings, so save them just like the other ordinary sentient beings. Save them if you can, and treat them just like anyone else. The more you regard them as a special group, the less you will be able to save them. Just save them as you would any other persons. Save them if you can. If you can't, then you can't." Basically, the fundamental criterion is whether you choose to support the persecution or not.
Falun Dafa is about principles for upright cultivation, not about issuing orders or commandments to anybody. Cultivation standards don't change according to what people wish or desire. But never has it been said that non-practitioner homosexuals should give up their behaviour by force or face terrible consequences. This is your interpretation, whereas I understand the meaning of Li's words differently: didn't he specifically claim that if he were not doing Fa-rectification, this would be an issue? --- Olaf Stephanos 23:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, we should report what Li has said, or what notable people have said about Li or FLG. We ourselves shouldn't argue the merits of Li's teachings directly, even here. I've been guilty of that in the past, too, as I myself, as a neigong teacher, think that what Li teaches technically doesn't match up with his claims for it (in that, he has a lot of company, unfortunately). But it is what it is, and his claims are what they are, so we should let the readers decide. I'd never mention that opinion in the article itself. Some of the things Li has said are provocative, especially to the groups he disavows, and if we report them we should also report what his published critics say relevant to those pronouncements, as we do in the article. -- Fire Star 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Just because we are concerned with having a fair and accurate representation of the teachings on homosexuality doesn’t mean that it’s central to the practice. This is a particular belief that can be fairly influential on people’s understanding or opinion of Falun Dafa, despite the fact that it’s not central. Regarding you sentence about homosexuals having to be celibate, it is your own understanding and as Миборовский pointed out there are other ways that it can be understood. But either way I really doubt that Mr. Li was suggesting a specific course of action for homosexuals at large, as he was addressing Falun Gong practitioners rather than mainstream society. In addition, Mr. Li rarely tells practitioners to take any specific actions. Instead, he usually explains a principle, or speaks in very broad terms, so that practitioners can interpret it according to their own understandings. And that’s what I think he’s doing here. You understand it one way, I understand it another. And there's often no specific “right” way that some of these things can be understood (although there are sometimes clearly wrong ways that they can be understood). That’s the idea. This is one reason why we, including myself, need to be very careful with how we incorporate quotes.
On that note I’ve been trying to rework the sexual orientation section again to make it more clear, and I’ve found that the Switzerland quote in particular is put forth in a way that doesn’t allow the reader to understand it objectively. Both excerpts are prescribed specific interpretations, which I personally don’t agree with. I’m going to keep working on it and will post it when I’ve come up with something that I think is clearer, provides broader context, and hopefully more objective. I'm about to make another post above in which I'll mention a few more things. Mcconn 16:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I apologize if this has already been pointed out. In the "Allegations of organ harvesting" section, it states "According to at least two witnesses interviewed by The Epoch Times, internal organs of living Falun Gong practitioners have been harvested and sold to the black market, and the bodies have been cremated in the hospital's boiler room. [6]" The two parts of the sentence—1. organs being harvested from living people and 2. their bodies being cremated—seem inconsistent. Further, while the source probably does include the statements backing up that section of the article, it would be better if the external link pointed to the specific article that back ups the statements or, if necessary, that multiple external links to specific articles be used. Theshibboleth 21:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Could someone please add a line or two to the intro that explains what the source of agitation is between Falun Gong and the Chinese government, why the two are at odds with each other? -- Xtreambar 00:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
this article seems to become a crap. What's all these pro-falun gong photos doing there? One or two photos is enough. And there should be one one or two anti photo as well.
I was reading the article after the incident involving Wenyi Wang and President Hu Jintao on April 20th, and while I see that it's a heavily edited entry, I think there should be some clarifications made in the introduction regarding the following statement: "Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999 for its illegal activities." I was initially confused by this statement, as there had been no mention of the group doing anything illegal; later, in section 9, Government Crackdown, it is stated that the practice of Falun Gong was made illegal in July of 1999. I believe an edit to mention after the aforementioned sentence is warranted -- unless I am misunderstanding the issue and there were indeed illegal acts which consisted of more than simply "the practice of Falun Gong." I'm not going to make the edit myself, as I don't understand the issue. -- Philodespotos 04:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the need expressed by Xtreambar but find that when I have attempted to meet it I have been overruled and blocked by Henry Flower. Anything which seriously undermines a 'consensus' that communist governments madly and irrationally oppress innocent activities is politically suppressed here, I find. My attempts at explanation are relegated here to the discussion page, e.g., [ [7]]. Etaonsh 10:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Despite my urge to point out how flawed the FLG deconstruction video is, I think I'll focus on some facts in the news media which were neglected. So I've added two links and brief descriptions under the Self Immolation Incident. -- Yenchin 20:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
It’s clear in the article that the house was a gift to Mr. Li and therefore does not reflect Mr. Li’s income or spending practices. Moreover, Mr. Li refused the house, which is clarified by the practitioner who bought the house in this letter ( http://cw83913.zhufa.org/emh/articles/1999/11/3/10767.html). The house which Mr. Li admitted to living in in the report was at least partially paid for by James Pang, which is clear in the quote “James Pang, who was among Mr. Li's first followers in the U.S. and helped rent the Queens apartment for Mr. Li.” Therefore none of this information reflects any notable financial or business aspects of Falun Gong. So I have removed it. Mcconn 15:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The caption below the Falun Emblem reads '...To Western eyes it resembles the swastika used by Nazi Germany...' To Western eyes, or to modern eyes? Etaonsh 15:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
But historically, the Guomintang (Chinese Nationalist Party) modelled itself on the Nazi Party in the thirties, undermined Chinese unity against the Japanese invaders by attacking the Communists, and were ultimately chased from China into Taiwan. What 'a lot of people are offended by' is not always an indication of historical realities. Etaonsh 21:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Buddhism has been around the Chinese for a long time. The paradigm thought of the swastika is that it stands for Buddhism. At best when it is shown in a Nazi way then people over there will think of it as a Nazi symbol. -- Yenchin 03:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Buddhism has indeed been around for a long time, as has the fylfot. But developments in modern history are and have been sufficient to significantly undermine the position of Buddhism in most of China, and the fylfot, in many people's minds throughout the world, as a useful, unambiguous symbol. Etaonsh 07:53, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
In the 1940s 8 million people were massacred under the swastika in the context of a World War which, following worldwide suffering and conflict, decided the future of the planet. Asian religionists and their apologists may question the contemporary relevance of these events, in which swastika symbolism had a prominent and ubiquitous presence. But you will never command universal respect with such an ostrich-like dismissiveness, which, in itself, indicates an extreme, conservative Weltanschaung which does you and your movements and religions little credit. Etaonsh 18:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Li seems indifferent to the Holocaust connection, which represents a weakness in his legendary defences, particularly when his movement presumes to expand to the West - it's not as tho we're talking about a bunch of unschooled Buddhists who've never ventured beyond their village, here. The Holocaust remains an issue here, which Falun Gong ignores at its peril. Etaonsh 20:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
The Holocaust and its sites are part of World Heritage now. 8 million is a number which cannot be ignored anywhere without implications of callousness. Intentional or not, the modern use of the swastika seems to bring not good look, but suspicions of Holocaust indifference, all too easily reinforced by evidence of continuing traditional cultural insensitivity and cruelty. Etaonsh 20:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
'In the States'?! It is as if you were writing in anticipation of my above obloquy. Etaonsh 20:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Your very language smacks of Holocaust indifference and cultural insensitivity. Buddhism was central to an era in which the children of the poor were emasculated in monasteries. 'Religious' revisionists seek to revisit the poor with the nightmares of the past. Etaonsh 06:24, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is way to big, we need to break up sections of it into seperate articles so that the main one isn't to large for people to read. For example, the Falun Gong view on Homosexuality could be taken out and made into a seperate article entirely. -- The Fading Light 4:22, 22 April 2006
Earlier today, I cleaned up the syntax in this section. An anonyous user pointlessly reverted it to the older version with clumsy syntax. "10 languages in press" is not standard English. As well, it's pointless to have the newspaper's name repeated twice in one sentence.
If you don't like the copy, edit it, don't revert it. This is an English-language Wikipedia and I'm only trying to work on the syntax here, not the content. Jeff Fenstermacher 22:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Whoever is removing Category:Falun Gong from the list of Falun Gong Categories, please stop it. -- The Fading Light 6:46, 22 April 2006
User Samuel Luo has blanked out the entire April 2006 Hu visit protests section. This is page-blanking vandalism. Numerous people contributed to that section, and it is not up to one person to summarily remove it because he doesn't like it. Jeff Fenstermacher 23:11, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of the article is to explore the origin and beliefs of the Falun Gong. This section talks about the activities of practitionrs therefore is out of focus. In order to keep the article short and focused, in my opinion, it should be removed. What do you think? -- Samuel Luo 23:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems that this rightfully belongs under the section on Beliefs and Teachings rather than on it's own. Anybody disagree and if so why? CovenantD 23:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
There has been wholesale vandalism in this article in the last 24 hours. At least 4 sections have been deleted in their entirety (Li as Savior, Demons, Englightenment and Claims to Historical Significance) and entire new sections have been added in their place. This is a violation of Wikipedia policy and is counter-productive to editing a good article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomananda ( talk • contribs)
-- Tomananda 08:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The article is very well done compared to the previous versions. All the content from previous versions are there in the article, in good context. Falun Dafa is Good and no matter how much you try to make it seem otherwise, the truth comes out. It is only natural. What do you think you can make up Falun Gong to be a bunch of un-related facts paragraps.. demons.. homosexuality.. ?? All the edits you were doing had been severly criticized by other editors. Your cant continue to engage in this form of vandalism. The content you are trying to introduce has been demonstrated,repeatedly, to be baseless and from untrustworthy sources. There is no justification on your part for ignoring all that. Yesterday when the article was being Vandalized terribly.. All text and images being removed ( in the version you want to revert to also, the quotes by US Congress.. American Institute of Psychiartry and Law, all have been removed..) That is vandalism. Not putting the teachigns as the teachings.
Why do you delete the information related to Organ Transplants like transcript of audio conversations? Cant you see they are critical? How could you, if you have a bit of conscience, want to help hide such atrocities? Dilip rajeev 10:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Concerning your assertion that Falun Dafa is good...if it were good it would be able to stand on its own feet and not depend on the bullying tactics of a band of Falun Gong practitioners. You're sneaky editing tactics do not defend the name of Dafa...they reveal Dafa to be a weak paranoid fantasy of Li Hongzhi who has gotten practioners all over the world to do his bidding. It's all about defending his ego and reputation. The bullying tactics so many Falun Gong practitioners are using to edit this Wikipedia article are not unlike the bullying tactics Li organized back in the old days in China, when publishing offices were put under siege for days and honest empolyees were fired because they had the nerve to criticize your master. Li Hongzhi: if you are so great, why don't you come out of hiding and allow yourself to be interviewed by the American press? Again, I have great sympathy for you and the other practitioners. I do not have sympathy for Li.
Dilip: This debate has gone on for more than a month and for a while I though we were making progress by compromising. Why have you become so agressive with your edits all of a sudden? -- Tomananda 10:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The article was in a terrible shape. Look at what was done to the article yesterday. All I have introduced are the central teachings of Falun Gong. And the content, needless to say, is un-disputable and UN-AVOIDABLE for an article like this. And all are sourced, contextual and very relevant to the article. I cant understand why anyone would make a huge issue out of it. Dilip rajeev 11:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
As I said in my last edit, at least 4 sections were deleted: Li as Savior, Demons, Englighenment and Claims to Historical Significance by practitioners such as Dilip or Mcconn or others. This is about practitioners dishonestly engaging in a major reorganization and deletion of whole sections of an article that has been worked on for many weeks without discussion or consensus. This is about the bullying tactics of the Falun Gong in general which can't stand to see it's own master's teachings reported in a balanced article on the Falun Gong. And it's about adding a great deal of self-promotional material which aims to obscure the core beliefs. I will do a separate posting requesting mediation right now. Fire Star and Mbovorofsy: do you agree?-- Tomananda 15:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
None of the factual material have been deleted. You had so absurdly presented those four sections as the teachings of Falun Dafa!!! Demons, homosexuality,.. what do yo uthink this is.. and on top of that if you go through the edits done a day back.. You can see how much you vandalized the article.
202.83.32.210 16:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Samuel Luo 18:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Fire Star, Tomananda, Samuel Luo, who are you people? personal attack removed? I read your writing, and it's like an exercise in irrationality. Will you three teach a class, maybe Fallacy 101? As I said before, God obviously didn't create all men equal. How sad. It still irks me that anyone would be as -- to actually equate Nazism with the ancient Swastika symbol. And I thought these were the worst arguments I had ever read, courtesy of Mr. Firestar and company. But now, I just see you people really are personal attack removed! Take a moment and look at your life. personal attack removed? I am so glad the White House event led me to this page. If it wasn't, and I never read this page, personal attack removed? . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.33.75.9 ( talk • contribs)
Get back to your desk, George - there's a war in progress. Etaonsh 11:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Please explain why so many photos showing scenes of meditation and lecturing are necessary.
I will say again this article is too large and either needs to be trimmed to a reasonable size or major sections need to be relocated and a link and a summary put in their place. CovenantD 19:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Looking both at the size of the article and the rather Herculean task of effectivly chopping the article down to size without destroying it's usefulness (not to mention protecting the articles from vandalizm) I would suggest that we create an offical Project:Falun Gong to organize and plan out how we are going to edit and improve all Wiki articles related to Falun Gong. But I'm not a good leader, and I'm not sure how many people would be willing to work on such a project, so it anyone willing to give it a shot? The Fading Light 7:16, 24 April 2006
It seems that we haven’t reached any form of consenses on the content from this article, therefore, upon Convenant’s request, I’m reposting the discussion here.
Samual wrote: Also, the sentence “According to a Chinese state-sponsored news report published six days after the persecution of Falun Gong officially began” in origins section is inappropriate. How would you like it if I added the following statement “According to the Falun Gong which is considered a deceptive cult by American cult experts” to all statements from the Epoch Times and the group?
Mcconn 05:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Mcconn yuo don't want to include info from the chinese media because you know what they say about Li is true. I came to this conclusion becasue practitioners like you keep deleting Li's own words, it suggests that you practitioners want to hide the truth. Editors on this page and our visitors are not babies and we don't need you to censor information for us. We don't need you to decide what information should be allowed. Reports from Chinese media should stay if those lies from FAlun Gong's mouth piece Epoch Times stays. -- Samuel Luo 07:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
A section like this shouldn't be weighted at the begininning of the article. However, if we broaden it under the heading "Organization and Financial Aspects" it may become more appropriate in this place. I think it would be better after the section on teachings though, since they are what Falun Gong is. Also, we should refrain from using the term "The Falun Gong". Practitioners do not recognize this title. We can instead use "Falun Gong" or "Falun Gong practitioners". In the case of this heading I don't it's necessary to use either, as in my suggestion. Mcconn 06:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Is Chinese Communism truly in a deadly struggle with Falun Gong, as we are led to believe, or is the similarity between Falun Gong's supremacist values and Chinese government abuses of Human Rights all too redolent of something else entirely? Etaonsh 12:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I feel that the promotion of an ideology of racist separate development smacks of a racism which is illegal here in Europe, let alone Communist China. I accept that Europe isn't always any more effective at enforcing such laws than the People's Republic - but can we 'call a spade a spade,' please? Etaonsh 12:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
"A Chinese Newspaper" is not a credible source. We must take into consideration the fact that there is Goverment Crackdown on Falun Gong and Media in Mainland China is tightly controlled by the state. Chinese Newspapers have made really absurd claims on Falun Gong.
Dilip rajeev 13:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
That is debatable, but at least you have left that assertion open to debate. When you recently reverted the Falun symbol caption back to 'no connection to Nazism' (a minority view here, IMHO) you didn't consult anybody, and left no comment.
If, as an Indian, you don't feel threatened by the Chinese racist supremacism implicit in Falun Gong, this suggests either irrationality or a bumptiousness never before observed in the Indian character. Or both. Etaonsh 14:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The wan is central to Indian Culture too. It is called Swastika here. It is found in ALL traditional Indian temples. Falun Dafa is cultivation practice and has nothing to do with any country. So many here in India practice it and it is popular through out the world. Many yoga experts consider Falun Gong a great practice. Dilip rajeev 14:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
And yet, despite all that, I read evidence in the article, totally undenied, that standard, fascistic views on topics like homosexuality and racial interbreeding are encouraged. Is this falacious, or just a part of the elephant you don't observe? Etaonsh 15:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Then why didn't somebody revert the bit that said that Li's philosophy opposes interracial marriage, in the interests of Wikipedian enlightenment? Or is there a China/India split on this? Etaonsh 18:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Tomananda 19:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
'Interracial people are a problem'? That statement, if accurately reported, is simply unacceptable in this crude form. 'The gods don't know what to do with them'? Likewise, altho it sounds like a clumsy way of stating that their mixed race creates problems for astrologers, who typically would assign a star sign/ruling planet/element to each race. I expect Li is, for once, in harmony with the CCP on the subject of homosexuality. 'Elimination' of evil or of the evil? Anti-communism? This wouldn't fit in here, where apolitical organisations are largely regulated and have to remain apolititical, for tax purposes. Etaonsh 19:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Fire Star,
There is so much vandalism on the article.. So much content has been deleted.. sections on awards deleted.. section saying epoch times is a publication of Falun Gong.. Many relevant pictures deleted( including self-immolation gif).. please allow me to fix a bit of the vandalism before the article is locked..
Dilip rajeev 14:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
l
The recent edit wars and resulting block are evidence that we editors aren't using this talk page enough before we make changes to a very controversial article. We can change that, if everybody is willing to work together.
I'd like to archive the talk page and try a fresh start, focusing on making the article the best it can be. We could start with discussing a basic outline, target size, and what to summarized and split off into their own articles. I'd like us to agree that NO changes are made to the article itself UNTIL we've reached 60% agreement on the edit (similar to the size needed for a merge or deletion). Anybody else interested in trying for a NPOV article of proper size? CovenantD 15:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to keep popping up here but I need to clear up a misunderstanding - I am not 'anti-FLG' as implied. I am prepared to countenance a truce with them on the basis that they show due understanding and appreciation of how their views and symbols have come across to those fully informed of matters political, and of modern history. At the moment we are at a level of discussion whereby the best I can expect in that regard is something along the lines of, 'Shucks! - is that fascism? We're sorry, we had no idea, we've been too busy practising our exercises/we've never been allowed to do politics, here.' Etaonsh 15:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
You sound a very busy individual, and perhaps therefore haven't had time to recognise that the problem here isn't just about the manji symbol, but the fact of its export to the West in conjunction with fascistic ideology. Also, there is something a touch personal about that comment, if I'm not mistaken, for all your academic pretensions. Etaonsh 17:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
If you, as someone involved in the field, so to speak, feel that 'tall claims' are an issue, to conceal such from the readership would hardly do us a service; especially if, as you imply, you have balancing compliments to contribute. Surely that is what neutrality is - to put both sides of an issue, however faintly appetising the result. But I suspect you aren't entirely neutral - you want to promote this type of activity and would, it appears, rather gloss over the 'embarrassing bits.' Given that Falun Gong has effectively presented the CCP with an appreciable, sizeable challenge to its political authority (massive demos, however 'peaceful,' are a show of strength and destructive potential) I don't see why you want to apply different standards between it and the (reportedly smaller) CCP. FLG has become political - asserting homophobia and Apartheid is few persons' idea of 'meditative exercise.' Your assertion re 'mainstream churches' is debatable - I understood that they all followed a principle of voluntary contributions? In an ideal world, a renunciation of the fascistic values associated with the swastika, coming direct from Li Hongzhi himself, would have averted hours wasted in revert war and debate here. However, it is hard to see this coming while he clings on to the usual homophobia and Apartheid, which, by what appears to be one of the most amazing coincidences in history, happens to be shared by his army of associates with shared interests in meditative exercise. Etaonsh 16:22, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
You say, 'in one statement you seem to regard practitioners as people of low intelligence or low understanding of the world around them.' I was being kind/diplomatic: the more likely explanation of those who promote fascistic ideology while denying it is that they are deliberately deceiving us. Not that I necessarily accept the view, which has been touted here, that all practitioners are, by some mystery, in accord - and would like to explore that unlikelihood, if we may, with their co-operation(?). Etaonsh 17:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Etanosh,
It is a Buddhist symbol. See Swastika See this page .. http://www.swastika-info.com/en/worldwide/asia/1110151045.html
"Some people have said, “This symbol looks like that thing Hitler had.” I can tell you that this symbol doesn’t have anything to do with any social clashes. Some people say that if the corner tilted to this side it would be Hitler’s thing. That’s not an issue, since it turns both ways. This symbol was widely known in the world 2,500 years ago, it was back in Shakyamuni’s time that they got to know it. It’s only been a few decades since the time of Hitler and World War II, and he stole this symbol for his own use. But the color of his was different from ours, it was black, and what’s more, its corner pointed upward and it stood on its end, it was vertical" -Zhuan Falun'
See http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm Also http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm
You see the swastika on many ancient Buddha Statues and pictures of Hindu Gods.
202.138.112.252 16:20, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes. It is also a Buddhist symbol. This is the difference between me and my detractors - I don't deny your truths, but you deny mine. Etaonsh 16:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
In the text accidently removed you raised out some points, to sum up:
1. "...in modern history terms, the swastika represents Nazi oppression. In Chinese terms, it represents a past in which the children of the poor were sold into Buddhist monasteries - oppression again"
2. Enter ' Falun Gong'...etc
3. Don't take it personally, as a personal attack on your motives, or, for a moment, think that anyone is moved by any suggestion that what I am saying here is somehow irrelevant to the topic.
-- Yenchin 05:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
There has been a lot of blatant vandalism. Self-Immolation Gif Deleted. Section on Awards Deleted,transcriptions of audio conversations on by WOIPFG deleted. And even a whole section Section saying Epoch Times is run by Falun Gong. Editors are requested to please protect the article from vandalism. Dilip rajeev 16:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
= 'Suicide is shameless.' How religious/meditationally focussed/right-thinking is that? Etaonsh 16:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Who said that?
Fire Star,
This is not about the edits. You mentioned the topic of Small and Great Heavenly circuits. I know that in most Qi Gong systems it is considered the highest level of practice. In Falun Gong within a few weeks of practice, most practitioners can objectively feel the rotations of the Great heavenly circuit and Maoyou heavenly circuit. I myself can. And remember that there is no mind-activity or imagination whatsoever in Falun Gong practice. It is not wise to reject something just because it is not in-line with out notions. It is un-necessary to accept or reject something when we understand it. Truth has nothing to do with we start believing or stop believing.
Opening of the heavenly circuits is just the first step in Falun Gong practice.If you can try the exercises, cultivate your mind-nature - you can verify that for yourself.. There is absolutely no need to believe or dis-believe what I say.
Remember that Master Da Liu, the master who introduced Tai Chi to North America said at the age of 95 that he asks ALL his students to learn Falun Gong.. Dilip rajeev 18:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Dilip
I don't understand all this stuff about 'Small and Great Heavenly circuits' and 'rotating Faluns/Gongs?' but I hope, for your sake, that it's true and meaningful. Above all it's not political rant. It reminds me of stuff I heard at astrology meetings before gradually learning to respect aspects of their hidden knowledge, without yet totally embracing the subject. Oh, and, for the record, they sometimes trip themselves up when they, sometimes unwittingly, perhaps, stray from their specialist topic into matters political. I hope that clarifies my position, and my desire for enlightenment in accordance with Wikipedia principles(?). Etaonsh 19:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
1. This statement “There is no concept of membership in Falun Gong” in the introduction is not sourced, shouldn’t it be included?
2. This statement “Li refused the house according to the practitioner who bought the house in this letter [11]. The house which Mr. Li admitted to living in in the report was at least partially paid for by James Pang, "who was among Mr. Li's first followers in the U.S. and helped rent the Queens apartment for Mr. Li" in the Financial and business aspects of the Falun Gong section is a personal statement from a practitioner published on Falun Gong website. Shouldn’t it be included?
3. It is very ironic that being a critic of the Falun Gong, I have been the one restoring Li’s statements repeatedly deleted by practitioners. Can practitioners stop concealing the Master’s teachings? -- Samuel Luo 18:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Samuel,
I was going through the edit History. I am sorry but Vandalism is the only word I can find to describe what you have been doing. We all have a POV but remember that this is an encyclopaedia article. You have repeatedly ignored discussion on the talk page. Repeatedly deleted content from the article including whole sections, The Tiananmen Square Video Gif( repeatedly - inspite of other editors asking you not to ); Content from Organ Transplants section, Deleted the whole awards and Recognitions section, New York times figure on the number of practitioners, relevant content from several sections and much more and ignored repeated requests from other editors to stop vandalizing the article. Please go through your own edits over the past three days.
Despite editors repeatedly pointing out that the Epoch Times is an Independent News Agency, You kept Introducing a section saying "Major Publications of Falun Gong" -- in which you say Epoch times is run by Falun Gong. The above mentioned are just a part of what you have deleted.
Dilip rajeev 18:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree but it is urgent that we restore the vandalized material, of which the above mentioned are but just a part. We need to be careful abou the source we use. Chinese newspapers have carried really absurd stories. We cant have them as a credible source. And whenever somebody puts a quote in editors are requested to look at the context in which it was said... Just look at the critical material section.. The quotes are so terribly out of context.. Then sobody who talks about a falun rotating in the "wrong direction"!!! SO absurd.. The books clearly say the falun rotates in both directions..
" When Falun rotates clockwise, it can automatically absorb energy from the universe. Rotating counter-clockwise, it can give off energy. Inward (clockwise) rotation offers self- salvation while outward (counter-clockwise) rotation offers salvation to others—this is a feature of our practice. Zhuan Falun, Lecture 5
Dilip rajeev 18:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Samuel Luo 19:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Samuel Luo 19:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
"No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee."
--- John Donne
Fnhddzs 20:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Right now a lot of the "critical info" against Falun Gong is sourced with western scholars, but in many cases those scholars are only quoting Communist Party sources. I have placed a question regarding this issue on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Can_a_POV_Source_be_presented_as_NPOV_if_a_neutral_person_quotes_it.3F and basically the response i got was: "Attribute the POV to those who hold it, present any opposing view points (attributing those view points as well), don't state or imply that any POV is right or wrong." and "Quotes inside another source should not be used: locate the original." So in an effort to give orignal sources i have finally obtained a copy of: Tong, James (September 2002). An Organizational Analysis of the Falun Gong: Structure, Communications, Financing. The China Quarterly" and so i know which original sources he uses for the relevant accusations and will therefore use those original sources in the article. This should be done with the other sources (that are not original sources) as well. -- Hoerth ( talk) 12:04, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
A thought: I think it's appropriate to find and present the context in which these things are being said. If there are academics or journalists writing how it was part of the CCP's propaganda campaign to portray Falun Gong as a highly organised, money-making institution, then that information would be relevant in presenting those claims. This is being responsible and helpful to the reader, to get a picture of what is going on. Of course, it wouldn't make sense if the primary sources being quoted were prior to 7/20. But if they were post-7/20 regime sources, and then you have scholars explaining how post-7/20 regime sources had X and Y strategy in portraying Falun Gong, as part of this wider campaign, then I think that's relevant--I doubt anyone would dispute that. That's one thought I had.-- Asdfg 12345 14:53, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
This is an archived discussion page. DO NOT EDIT THIS PAGE. Please go to the main talk page and join the discussion there.
Archived discussion:
No Tomanda, what I'm saying is that the suggested phenomena is quite rare, that there is little controvesy amongst pratitioners over whether or not to believe or agree with Mr. Li, and that it is thus not worth mentioning. If someone has practiced in a spirtual disciple like Falun Gong for 10 years, then I highly doubt that they would disagree with their teacher. I explained above, from my own experience, how common practitioners regard Mr. Li's words, but this form of relationship is not unique to Falun Gong nor is it necessarily cult-like. Do Christians question the Bible? Do Buddhists question the Dharma? Do Daoist disciples question their masters? If this is the criterion of mind control, then I think you've got a problem with just about every major religion or spiritual discipline. All of the abovementioned things that you told me to "think about" have related concepts in Christianity and other religions as well. So are you suggesting that all devout religious practitioners cannot think for themselves and thus victims of mind control? As for objectivity: This article is about Falun Gong. Falun Gong practitioners believe in Falun Gong. I think it's pretty obvious that practitioners will not disagree with what they believe in, and are thus more apt to include positive information. You, on the other hand, don't like Falun Gong and are clearly more apt to include critical information. We all have our biases, but that doesn't mean that we can't be objective or add to the objectivity of the article. Wikipedia articles become objective through the input of different people with different opinions, not through completely objective individuals. If you have an interest in something enough to spend the time to help edit its wiki article, then how can you not have biases and opinions?
The title of your post was "If you "believe everything Li says" what's the point of reporting "your own" beliefs about Falun Dafa in Wikipedia?" I said before that all practitioners interpret the teachings of Falun Gong according to their own understanding. Of course we will agree on fundamental things, such as whether or not Falun exist, but going past the fundamentals the teachings are broad and lend to many different interpretations and understandings. Besides, since when are editors suppost to report their own beliefs in Wikipedia? Mcconn 14:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
And I hope that some day you will recoginze the goodness and purity of Dafa. Perhaps "question" wasn't the right choice of words. "Disagree with" probably better expresses my meaning. Practitioners actually are always questioning the teachings, but not disagreeing with them. Questioning is encouraged and a major part of the practice. That's why Mr. Li spends so much time answering questions from practitioners at most of his lectures. Do you think Sakyamuni or Jesus's disciples disagreed with their teachers? No way. If you ask me I'd say that Falun Dafa's emphasis on principles rather than precepts and rules makes it far less restraining than Buddhism or Christianity. Moreover, when Jesus and Sakyamuni taught their practices they required their disciples to renounce everything in the world and go with them into the forest. That seems like a lot more control than Mr. Li has. For the record, I'm not against these religions at all, I'm just making a point. Mcconn 02:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
There is some controversy within the Falun Gong community concerning Li's teachings on homosexuality. [1]Some practitioners have stated that each practitioner speaks for himself concerning this issue, while others claim that Li's teachings are directed towards practitioners for personal guidance and self-cultivation, rather than to discriminate against or judge others. Most practitioners seem to agree with Li that homosexuality is not an inborn trait, but instead reflects deviations from the natural order that have occurred at the higher levels. These deviations are considered to be part of the cause of homosexuality and part of the need for Fa-rectification.
-- Samuel Luo 04:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I am moving Tomanada’s paragraph in Falun Gong and sexual orientation section to this page. The views of practitioners can not be verified and therefore should only be discussed in the discussion page. This shortens the length of the article and ensures the focus on Falun Gong belief system. -- Samuel Luo 04:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Yep, that's right. Getting a bunch of email spam from FLG lately. Getting more and more desperate, they are. -- Миборовский U| T| C| M| E| Chugoku Banzai! 23:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I hope that with the split, the main article can be a short, reliable, and detached description about Falun Gong, written for the curious outsider. I very much encourage everyone to add information about the finer points of FG's teachings, history, and persecution, but please do so in the appropriate new articles. Weel 12:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
We must say no to this attempt to subvert the work of many editors over these long weeks. Claiming he has simply split the article, Weel has done a major re-write which obscures or deletes all together the content critical of the Falun Gong. Worse yet, Weel has actually deleted some of the discusssion content as well. For example, he carried over an edited version of Olaf's post, without also carrying over my response to Olaf's post. This is an outrageous violation of Wikipedia editing standards. -- Tomananda 18:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Your right that this should be discussed first, but I think since so much work has already been put in to split it that we shouldn't just revert it. At least give Weel a chance to defend it. I'm fairly impartial to the split, but if, after a bit of discussion, it seems like a good idea then perhaps we can use what weel has done as base. Mcconn 02:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
This issue has dragged on for quite a while, and the section is the subject of constant editing by myself and others. I just made a bunch of changes to the section that I have address here. I removed the ZFL II quote and the poem. The section is already full of quotes on the same issue and amidst all of the other quotes these two do very little to clarify Falun Gong's, or Mr. Li's, stance or belief on this issue. The ZFL II quote is a single sentence taken out of its context and is rather unclear to begin with. It addresses the mental state of homosexuality, which is similarly (although not identically) mentioned in the Frankfurt quote. The seriousness to which Mr. Li holds homosexuality in the poem is clearly indicated in the statement about gods targeting homosexuals if not for Fa-rectification. I am not going to comment on the intentions of some of the editors, but I will say that if your really want people to understand how Falun Dafa regards homosexuality then you might as well fill the page with everything that Mr. Li has ever written about cultivation, understanding others, compassion toward others, mankind's degredation, lust, sentimentality, etc. This to say that you can fill the page on everything Mr. Li has ever said about homosexuality (which we've pretty much done), but once it gets to a certain point it becomes just so out of context that there's no way it can be understood accurately. This is because Mr. Li speaks to practitioners at his lectures, people who he knows will understand his words within the context of the whole system. No matter how many individual quotes you include you will never present a clear picture as he words were never meant to be examined in this way. For tbe same reasons, I still am not happy with this section, even after my current edits. Maybe Tomanda will label this appologitics, that's his or her opinion, which is fine, but my intention is to help people understand Falun Dafa for what it is rather than for the interesting or shocking things Mr. Li has said. In my opinion, the only way to gain a fair understanding of Falun Gong is to read the teachings yourself, yet I realize that not everyone who wants to learn about Falun Gong is willing to do that. So I'm doing what I can to keep the article as fair and accurate as possible. Mcconn 17:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Tomananda 20:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Please refer to my post below on how I believe we should treat and speak with one another. It is simply not true that I'm uncomfortable with Mr. Li's teachings on homosexuality and I believe that I've made that clear. Yet, I am uncomfortable with these particular teachings being presented in a way that may misguide readers' understandings of thier role and context within Falun Gong. In my edit I gave the quotes more context and made the section more readable. If you think that any of my words were opinionated then please point them out so that others and myself can know. I explained above why I cut out two of the quotes. They don't add enough to the article at this point. We are writing an article here, rather than simply listing quotes. It has to be readable, clear, and to the point. I think my changes help that without taking away from the explaination. Also, the criticism quote at the end is hardly related. It begins by criticising Falun Gong's view on homosexuality, but then goes into into supposed "fear tactics". Those really have nothing to do with this section and take away from the focus. We must bear in mind that this is not an argumentative essay in which every point must be argued. These kinds of criticisms should only be inserted when they are very pertinent and inline with the topic. The focus should be on the information, not whether some people agree or disagree with it. I'm not saying that there should be no criticisms, I'm just commenting on their place. Also, the sentence "But with Fa-rectification, homosexuals are given the opportunity to renounce their sexual behavior (and presumably live a celibate life)" is fairly opinionated. It's not included in my edit because, through the arrangement of quotes and commments, it's explained in other, less opinionized ways. I understand that I can't quote a practitioner in the way that I did, and I will act on Tomanda's suggestion and try to find a suitable quote. Mcconn 20:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
In recent weeks the Falun Gong article has become quite chaotic. With lots of new material being added to the article there have been a lot of disagreements, which have in turn lead to incessant reverting. I don’t think any of us like to have our hard work reverted, and especially when feel that very little reason was given why. Some of the current editors here come from very different points of view, which makes it almost impossible for us to be able to agree on everything and be happy with it. At times we disagree and revert so much that it almost turns into a war. But I think we need to try harder to work together (I am not pointing any fingers by saying this, and do not hold myself exempt from this at all), so I think we all need to examine our editing practices.
Very few of our edits are explained on the talk page, which I think is a problem. Since there is such discord amongst us, I think it is necessary that we fully explain each edit we make on the talk page from now on. And if someone doesn’t like what you put in and chooses to revert or change it, they can explain why in the talk page rather than simply reverting and writing an insufficient one-sentence edit summary. When commenting on an edit in the talk page I think we should also thoroughly consider the other editors by trying to explain ourselves very clearly and in a way that is easy for everyone to understand. I don’t think that through doing this we will all be able to agree on everything or always come to a consensus on everything, but I think it will do a little to restore some order (which I think will make all of us happier).
We also need to re-examine how we look at and treat one another. Wikipedia’s simplified ruleset lists a few things that I believe some of us are lacking here. I’ve pasted a few summaries below and I encourage everyone to read them through. Primarily though, I think we need to work on mutual respect and assuming good faith. I think a lot of tension has come from not respecting each other or assuming bad or improper intentions.
Another thing, we do all have our opinions on Falun Gong, most of which are very strong, but we should each be careful in thinking we are right. Personally, on at least one occasion in the past I have made edits which I thought were very good, but were then replaced with material that I really disagreed with. Rather than reassessing my edit, I reverted it, believing that I was right. It was then reverted again of course and maybe one more time, but eventually I reassessed my edit and realized there were some problems and altered it. I think we need to keep this kind of mindset from the start though, rather than only after an revert war. When our changes are reverted, we need to truly consider why (trying our best to assume good faith) and reassess what we’ve done. Maybe it turns out that there’s nothing wrong with what you wrote and the reverter is misguided or doesn’t understand, well…, then take it to the talk page.
This is a lengthy post and all it’s I’ll say about this for now. I hope each editor will take it seriously and add their own thoughts and ideas about how to improve our working together.
A few things to consider:
Mcconn 19:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Mcconn: You amaze me! You write a long plea for cooperation and mutual respect. Then you go and revert a long-standing and much discussed section on Falun gong and sexual orientation to a new version you have recently written, effectively deleting my work and the work of others over these many weeks. The one standard of conduct you do not mention in your post above is this:
1. When editing, don't do so at the expense of other editors' work. Rather than deleting content of others you should add to it whenever possible.
Again I ask you to stop provoking this revert war. You are free to add content to this section. But when you delete important quotes from Li or the summary of Deng and Fang's opinions on Li's use of fear to indoctrinate people I or others will revert it because we must.
Homosexuals are singled out by Li for a special level of punishment and that fact alone calls for some commentary. Li also has made different pronouncements on what he considers to be the "cause" of homosexuality, its nature and it's consequences. All of this information deserves to be covered in this section. I'm sorry that Li's teachings on homosexuality don't fit neatly into a package to your liking. Li sometimes contradicts himself and sometimes says things that make others uncomfortable. But for you to pursue an endless revert war merely because you don't want this information to appear in Wikipedia is unacceptable. You've made a passionate plea for cooperation above and now is the time to put your words into action. -- Tomananda 21:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
1. Li's view (not the view of Gods) of the status of homosexuals as people. (eg: we have dark hearts turning demonic) and how Li and the God's think we are "filthy" and subject to elimination. 2. Li's view about the morality of homosexuality (one of the world's ten evils)and something that brings karma upon oneself. 3. Li's view of of the "causes" of homosexuality. Two examples: a) it's because we have a "dirty mental abnormality" (some kind of mental illness) and b) it's because we experienced "postnatally-formed bad things" 3. Li's view about the consequences of being a homosexual (we may suffer a particularly painful and slow elimination process) and a specific explanation of what might be required to avoid those consequences (presumably living a celebate life.) 4. Finally, some critical commentary on all the above, which I have provided by summarizing Deng and Fang. They situate Li's views on homosexuality into the larger context of what they consider fear tactics done by Li in order to indoctrinate and control people.
I agree with Mcconn that even though we differ in our opinion about the Falun Gong, we can still respect each other. A good way to show this respect is to give a justification for our editing, especially when deleting. The following is a list of sentences deleted from the introduction, justification is given in parenthesis.
1. In fact, the swastika is one of the oldest known symbols dating back 10,000 years, and it's frequently found on Hindu iconography, ancient Greek architecture and paintings, as well as ancient statues of the Buddha [1]. (This statement needs to be sourced)
2. The assembly was prompted by reports of violence and harassment inflicted upon practitioners by Chinese police in the city of Tianjin, as well as a ban on publishing Falun Dafa materials. (This statement needs to be sourced)
3. and the government's reaction to that particular incident was not sympathetic. (POV)
4. There being no concept of membership and only loose organization in Falun Gong practice, the actual number of practitioners is unknown. (This statement is not sourced and is not needed here)
5. However, The New York Times mentioned a figure of 70 million in at least two articles, both released 27th of April, 1999 - one of them written by Seth Faison and another by Joseph Kahn, who professed that "Beijing puts the tally of ... followers at 70 million" [3] [4]. According to the articles, this was the estimate of China's State Sports Administration. (Quoting from a secondary source which provides contradictory figures from the original source (the Chinese government) does not make sense.)
6. The CCP has burned and destroyed books and other materials about Falun Gong, and blocked access to internet resources about the topic. Several reported cases of illegal imprisonment and torture of practitioners have been reported. Treatment of Falun Gong practitioners has been regarded in the West as a major international human rights issue affecting freedom of religion and freedom of speech. (The ban of the Falun Gong is mentioned in the intro. this information belongs to government crackdown section)
Also, the sentence “According to a Chinese state-sponsored news report published six days after the persecution of Falun Gong officially began” in origins section is inappropriate. How would you like it if I added the following statement “According to the Falun Gong which is considered a deceptive cult by American cult experts” to all statements from the Epoch Times and the group?
We certainly should be very careful when quoting from Chinese media which is no doubt controlled by the government. If we can refute any information from the Chinese media by using other sources we should do so. But there is no justification to exclude reports merely because they come from the Chinese media.
-- Samuel Luo 19:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
- Mcconn: You are missing the point here. I have correctly summarized Li's teachings in the Switzerland speech concerning the painful and slow punishment homosexuals will go through. It's clear that Li does single out homosexuals for this punishment for not behaing as human beings. If there is another class of people Li has singled out in the same way, then by all means you should add that information to this section. But there is no justification for deleting this information.-- Tomananda 20:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Mcconn: Again, your point is irrelevant. The fact that other religions might engage in fear tactics does not mean we shouldn't report critical opinion about the fear tactics Li uses in the Falun Gong. The paragraph is biased because it represents the POV of critics, and that is ok. Your role is to add to the section some other commentary which counters that. Again, we should add to the edit, not just delete. Go back and look at the Cult section as a model.-- Tomananda 20:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Both movements use swastikas. We have long been living in an age whereby we can no longer claim that one hemisphere's use of the swastika is totally independent of and unconnected to that of the other. But the key similarity of both swastika-proud movements is an apparent credence in an ultimately racist dogma of racial purity. True, Falun Gong isn't advocating 'ethnic cleansing' (nor did the Nazis prior to empowerment, nor did they ever admit to its occurrence) - but to those in interracial marriages and families, its condemnation of same must appear to amount to some degree of unhelpful interference, if not persecution? It is all too obviously apparent that a frustrated Chinese electorate, denied the opportunity to form alternative political parties (including, presumably, an alternative communist party) has resorted to an ultimately flawed attempt to 'cock a snook' at the ageing hierarchy and assert itself. Tomananda (above) speaks of an 'endless revert war;' the same applies on this aspect of the topic. 'You win again, so easily' - but not the moral victory. Etaonsh 17:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
But by refocusing attention on ancient religion and away from modern history in your otherwise informative discourse on the symbols, you are merely reasserting the bias of one side in this ongoing contemporary Chinese struggle. Etaonsh 23:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Fire Star 00:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
No-one is disputing the symbol's ancient eastern religious provenance, so there is no need to keep rehearsing it bigtime. But I think we need to turn the whole argument on its head, and ask why Hitler chose such a symbol - surely to curry favour with what are de facto extreme right wing traditions of the East, while secretly exterminating Jews in Europe? Etaonsh 06:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
See: [ [2]]. Etaonsh 10:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Ideology of a group is much more important than its emblem. The symbol in question has been widely used by legitimate religious groups in the east, but many Falun Gong teachings, particularly those about race and homosexuality have not. -- Samuel Luo 01:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the symbol is not a surefire guarantee of extreme right wing ideology - after all, I am myself a current member of the Theosophical Society, which uses a fylfot at the top of its badge. On the other hand, I must admit to some ongoing uncertainty about its use, and am unable to absolve all other Theosophists of the association, particularly in the past and particularly in Germany's past. Etaonsh 06:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
"Without his personal intervention, they cannot be saved," doesn't that sound like a cult leader? -- Samuel Luo 03:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
There is a connection between Falun Gong and Nazism, but it is based on underlying social philopsophy, not symbols. Many people are unaware that early Nazism based its racial value system on the work of American and British academics working in a field called "eugenics." The idea that one race is superior to another, or that pure race people are superior to mixed race people derived directly from the eugenics movement popular in the US and Britain in the 1920's and 1930's (but going back as far as the 1880's). Researchers would trace entire family histories in order to determine characteristics that they consired indicative of degeneracy. In America, there were even some forced sterilizations justified by the eugenics movement. Every time Li uses the word "degenerated" and applies it to a class of human being he considers suitable for elimination in his Fa-rectification I think of those early eugenics fanatics. Admittedly, Hitler applied the theory of eugenics further than any American or British researcher ever contemplated. I am not suggesting that Li advocates the extermination of "degenerate" people in this world, but he certainly does predict the spiritual elimination of "degenerate" people as part of his Fa-rectification. The similarity between Li's teachings on the "weeding out" of people and the eugenics movement is unmistakable. The main difference is that the Western eugenics movement envisioned implementing their wacky ideas in the real world as a matter of social policy, while Li only thinks in terms of future eliminations in the spiritual world. Thus it's reasonable to consider Li's teaching of Fa-rectification as a bizarre kind of "spiritual eugenics." For further reading on this subject, get a copy of Edwin Black's War Against the Weak: Eugenics and America's Campaign to Create a Master Race -- Tomananda 07:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with and commend all of that, except for the phrase 'not symbols.' The clear truth of the matter is that most of us, East or West, who are cognizant of modern history and the use of symbols herein, would run a mile before agreeing to the use of swastikas/fylfots for our favorite social movement. The restrained people of contemporary China are politically somewhat in the unfortunate position indicated by the old saw 'Beggars can't be choosers.' Etaonsh 08:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion: Does anyone feel up to expanding the section on mixed-race people in the article to include a broader report on Li's racist teachings? Here are some quotes to get you started:
No Orientals in Jesus' Paradise (what happens to Chinese Christians when they die?) "I have also found no oriental people in Jesus’ paradise. It is very sad! People in modern times do not listen to the words of their Lord, and the oriental people do not listen to the Buddha’s teaching either. . . . I have also found no white people in a Buddha’s paradise in the past." Falun Dafa Lecture (Sydney, Australia), p.29.
No Place for Chinese People in the White Man's World "So whenever I meet with my disciples, I tell them this: make sure your children learn Chinese and don’t lose the characteristics of the yellow race. Since there is not place for you in the worlds of the white people, you will still return to the world of the yellow people." “Exposition of Falun Dafa in the New York Seminar” (March 22, 1997), p. 32.
White People are Too Dumb to Understand Li's Dafa "People of the white race have a different way of thinking from people of the yellow race, like us, so you should take their special traits into consideration. Don’t baffle them by using the very complicated ways of thinking and language. That would make them think: “this is too difficult” Falun Dafa Lecture at the First Conference in North America. (New York, March 29-30, 1998), p. 14. -- Tomananda 08:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Li also appears to be ethnocentric, even racist. He has proclaimed that all races and ethnicities originated in China in their first incarnation. Only in later, more degenerate incarnations were these Chinese people born as members of other races and ethnicities: “No matter which country you're in, you were first Chinese on this earth.” [3] He gives examples: “Today's Americans were people of the Great Ming dynasty… England was the Great Tang, France was the Great Qing, Italy was the Yuan, Australia was the Xia, Russia was the Zhou, Sweden was the Northern Song,…Japan was the Sui. In those times, people from each dynasty left China and reincarnated to places that didn't have the countries that are there now--they were still rugged wilderness.” [4]
-- Samuel Luo 23:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Removed the statement in paragraph 2 "There are connections between Nazism and Falun Gong." Gramatically and likely factually incorrect. Please cite sources when possible. Reinstate if this edit is in error.
-- JS
I apologize for being a little harsh in my editional comments. I've been away for a while, and now that I returned, I noticed that there had been a lot of dubious changes.
I think it's important to mention that at least two American journalists had also given the figure of 70 million practitioners and that the source for this number was State Sports Administration. Now somebody had formulated the first chapter as if Falun Gong was only trying to exaggerate.
I removed the selections from Li's biography. We have discussed it before. As far as I recall, Fire Star said that we cannot use it as a source, because it's no longer in print. It's hard to verify any selections.
Li has never said that non-practitioner homosexuals have to give up their behaviour or meet with ultimate punishment. I don't understand why you feel that you can include your own "presumptions" in the article. (..."and presumably live a celibate life"...)
Also, I hoped that my reminder about the Wikipedia policies would've had an effect. It didn't. People are still using unauthorized sources for making conclusive allegations (such as "Li's neighbors and brother-in-law have stated..."). Please keep in mind: this is a non-partisan encyclopedia article, not an "exposé"! It would be nice if you learned to report your own POV with a certain self-reflectivity. At a minimum you could say "According to [my eminent source], [X and Y] have stated...". But you can't use any source you please.
Regards, --- Olaf Stephanos 22:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The government has estimated the membership of Falun Gong in China at 2.1 million not 70 million. The New York Times reporters who used the high figure could have been misled by practitioners working in the government since this figure has only been claimed by the group. There were practitioners working in key positions in the government, note the following statement from a Wall Street Journal report. “Mr. Wang produces reams of information on Falun Dafa from files in his cramped office. As a researcher in the institute's (China Wushu Research Institute ) qi gong department, he is charged with writing the reports assessing Falun Dafa and other groups under investigation. And Mr. Wang is a devoted follower of Mr. Li.” [5]
I believe it is best to quote directly from the source, in this case the Chinese government. Quoting from an indirect source which provides contradicting figures from the source does not make sense. Don’t you agree? I have asked almost every practitioner I met since 1999 the whereabouts of 30 million practitioners outside of China claimed by Master Li and the group. Do you know where they are? Yes, I believe Falun Gong’s “70 million in China and 30 million outside of China” claim an exaggeration.
I can understand that a non-practitioner would want to exclude Li’s statements, but I can not understand why a practitioner would also want to delete his statements from the article. Are you ashamed of his claims or just want to conceal what he said? Li’s autobiography should stand. It was used to introduce the Master to the public from 1992 to 1999; many practitioners came to know Li from it.
I believe I have followed Wikipedia’s policy. The people quoted had socialized with Master Li and their accounts are all first person accounts. Also the ban of the Falun Gong is mentioned in the intro, all the extra stuff about the ban belongs to the Falun Gong persecution section.
How can you accuse me of not using the magic word “according to” when my sentence did start with it? -- Samuel Luo 01:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, Olaf, but Li has most certainly said that homosexuals should give up their "bad behavior" in order to avoid whatever scary consequences he thinks will result from people loving other people of the same gender. Do you agree with that? And if you agree with that, then it's definitional to say that "giving up bad behavior" for a homosexual equates to "giving up sex" which equates to "living a celibate life." How can you with a straight face (no pun intended) say otherwise? You truly baffle me. Unless you can provide a more logical explanation for your challenge to my wording, that wording shall stand. I will do the revert now. -- Tomananda 23:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not.
Sure, Li has said that if you want to practice cultivation in Falun Dafa, you ought to give up homosexual behaviour. That would probably mean a celibate life for you. But how does this apply to society at large? Isn't it obvious that you, for instance, don't want to cultivate according to Li's teachings?
Li said in Los Angeles (25 February 2006): "They [= homosexuals] are sentient beings, so save them just like the other ordinary sentient beings. Save them if you can, and treat them just like anyone else. The more you regard them as a special group, the less you will be able to save them. Just save them as you would any other persons. Save them if you can. If you can't, then you can't." Basically, the fundamental criterion is whether you choose to support the persecution or not.
Falun Dafa is about principles for upright cultivation, not about issuing orders or commandments to anybody. Cultivation standards don't change according to what people wish or desire. But never has it been said that non-practitioner homosexuals should give up their behaviour by force or face terrible consequences. This is your interpretation, whereas I understand the meaning of Li's words differently: didn't he specifically claim that if he were not doing Fa-rectification, this would be an issue? --- Olaf Stephanos 23:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, we should report what Li has said, or what notable people have said about Li or FLG. We ourselves shouldn't argue the merits of Li's teachings directly, even here. I've been guilty of that in the past, too, as I myself, as a neigong teacher, think that what Li teaches technically doesn't match up with his claims for it (in that, he has a lot of company, unfortunately). But it is what it is, and his claims are what they are, so we should let the readers decide. I'd never mention that opinion in the article itself. Some of the things Li has said are provocative, especially to the groups he disavows, and if we report them we should also report what his published critics say relevant to those pronouncements, as we do in the article. -- Fire Star 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Just because we are concerned with having a fair and accurate representation of the teachings on homosexuality doesn’t mean that it’s central to the practice. This is a particular belief that can be fairly influential on people’s understanding or opinion of Falun Dafa, despite the fact that it’s not central. Regarding you sentence about homosexuals having to be celibate, it is your own understanding and as Миборовский pointed out there are other ways that it can be understood. But either way I really doubt that Mr. Li was suggesting a specific course of action for homosexuals at large, as he was addressing Falun Gong practitioners rather than mainstream society. In addition, Mr. Li rarely tells practitioners to take any specific actions. Instead, he usually explains a principle, or speaks in very broad terms, so that practitioners can interpret it according to their own understandings. And that’s what I think he’s doing here. You understand it one way, I understand it another. And there's often no specific “right” way that some of these things can be understood (although there are sometimes clearly wrong ways that they can be understood). That’s the idea. This is one reason why we, including myself, need to be very careful with how we incorporate quotes.
On that note I’ve been trying to rework the sexual orientation section again to make it more clear, and I’ve found that the Switzerland quote in particular is put forth in a way that doesn’t allow the reader to understand it objectively. Both excerpts are prescribed specific interpretations, which I personally don’t agree with. I’m going to keep working on it and will post it when I’ve come up with something that I think is clearer, provides broader context, and hopefully more objective. I'm about to make another post above in which I'll mention a few more things. Mcconn 16:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I apologize if this has already been pointed out. In the "Allegations of organ harvesting" section, it states "According to at least two witnesses interviewed by The Epoch Times, internal organs of living Falun Gong practitioners have been harvested and sold to the black market, and the bodies have been cremated in the hospital's boiler room. [6]" The two parts of the sentence—1. organs being harvested from living people and 2. their bodies being cremated—seem inconsistent. Further, while the source probably does include the statements backing up that section of the article, it would be better if the external link pointed to the specific article that back ups the statements or, if necessary, that multiple external links to specific articles be used. Theshibboleth 21:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Could someone please add a line or two to the intro that explains what the source of agitation is between Falun Gong and the Chinese government, why the two are at odds with each other? -- Xtreambar 00:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
this article seems to become a crap. What's all these pro-falun gong photos doing there? One or two photos is enough. And there should be one one or two anti photo as well.
I was reading the article after the incident involving Wenyi Wang and President Hu Jintao on April 20th, and while I see that it's a heavily edited entry, I think there should be some clarifications made in the introduction regarding the following statement: "Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999 for its illegal activities." I was initially confused by this statement, as there had been no mention of the group doing anything illegal; later, in section 9, Government Crackdown, it is stated that the practice of Falun Gong was made illegal in July of 1999. I believe an edit to mention after the aforementioned sentence is warranted -- unless I am misunderstanding the issue and there were indeed illegal acts which consisted of more than simply "the practice of Falun Gong." I'm not going to make the edit myself, as I don't understand the issue. -- Philodespotos 04:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the need expressed by Xtreambar but find that when I have attempted to meet it I have been overruled and blocked by Henry Flower. Anything which seriously undermines a 'consensus' that communist governments madly and irrationally oppress innocent activities is politically suppressed here, I find. My attempts at explanation are relegated here to the discussion page, e.g., [ [7]]. Etaonsh 10:04, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Despite my urge to point out how flawed the FLG deconstruction video is, I think I'll focus on some facts in the news media which were neglected. So I've added two links and brief descriptions under the Self Immolation Incident. -- Yenchin 20:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
It’s clear in the article that the house was a gift to Mr. Li and therefore does not reflect Mr. Li’s income or spending practices. Moreover, Mr. Li refused the house, which is clarified by the practitioner who bought the house in this letter ( http://cw83913.zhufa.org/emh/articles/1999/11/3/10767.html). The house which Mr. Li admitted to living in in the report was at least partially paid for by James Pang, which is clear in the quote “James Pang, who was among Mr. Li's first followers in the U.S. and helped rent the Queens apartment for Mr. Li.” Therefore none of this information reflects any notable financial or business aspects of Falun Gong. So I have removed it. Mcconn 15:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The caption below the Falun Emblem reads '...To Western eyes it resembles the swastika used by Nazi Germany...' To Western eyes, or to modern eyes? Etaonsh 15:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
But historically, the Guomintang (Chinese Nationalist Party) modelled itself on the Nazi Party in the thirties, undermined Chinese unity against the Japanese invaders by attacking the Communists, and were ultimately chased from China into Taiwan. What 'a lot of people are offended by' is not always an indication of historical realities. Etaonsh 21:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Buddhism has been around the Chinese for a long time. The paradigm thought of the swastika is that it stands for Buddhism. At best when it is shown in a Nazi way then people over there will think of it as a Nazi symbol. -- Yenchin 03:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Buddhism has indeed been around for a long time, as has the fylfot. But developments in modern history are and have been sufficient to significantly undermine the position of Buddhism in most of China, and the fylfot, in many people's minds throughout the world, as a useful, unambiguous symbol. Etaonsh 07:53, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
In the 1940s 8 million people were massacred under the swastika in the context of a World War which, following worldwide suffering and conflict, decided the future of the planet. Asian religionists and their apologists may question the contemporary relevance of these events, in which swastika symbolism had a prominent and ubiquitous presence. But you will never command universal respect with such an ostrich-like dismissiveness, which, in itself, indicates an extreme, conservative Weltanschaung which does you and your movements and religions little credit. Etaonsh 18:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Li seems indifferent to the Holocaust connection, which represents a weakness in his legendary defences, particularly when his movement presumes to expand to the West - it's not as tho we're talking about a bunch of unschooled Buddhists who've never ventured beyond their village, here. The Holocaust remains an issue here, which Falun Gong ignores at its peril. Etaonsh 20:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
The Holocaust and its sites are part of World Heritage now. 8 million is a number which cannot be ignored anywhere without implications of callousness. Intentional or not, the modern use of the swastika seems to bring not good look, but suspicions of Holocaust indifference, all too easily reinforced by evidence of continuing traditional cultural insensitivity and cruelty. Etaonsh 20:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
'In the States'?! It is as if you were writing in anticipation of my above obloquy. Etaonsh 20:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Your very language smacks of Holocaust indifference and cultural insensitivity. Buddhism was central to an era in which the children of the poor were emasculated in monasteries. 'Religious' revisionists seek to revisit the poor with the nightmares of the past. Etaonsh 06:24, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is way to big, we need to break up sections of it into seperate articles so that the main one isn't to large for people to read. For example, the Falun Gong view on Homosexuality could be taken out and made into a seperate article entirely. -- The Fading Light 4:22, 22 April 2006
Earlier today, I cleaned up the syntax in this section. An anonyous user pointlessly reverted it to the older version with clumsy syntax. "10 languages in press" is not standard English. As well, it's pointless to have the newspaper's name repeated twice in one sentence.
If you don't like the copy, edit it, don't revert it. This is an English-language Wikipedia and I'm only trying to work on the syntax here, not the content. Jeff Fenstermacher 22:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Whoever is removing Category:Falun Gong from the list of Falun Gong Categories, please stop it. -- The Fading Light 6:46, 22 April 2006
User Samuel Luo has blanked out the entire April 2006 Hu visit protests section. This is page-blanking vandalism. Numerous people contributed to that section, and it is not up to one person to summarily remove it because he doesn't like it. Jeff Fenstermacher 23:11, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of the article is to explore the origin and beliefs of the Falun Gong. This section talks about the activities of practitionrs therefore is out of focus. In order to keep the article short and focused, in my opinion, it should be removed. What do you think? -- Samuel Luo 23:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
It seems that this rightfully belongs under the section on Beliefs and Teachings rather than on it's own. Anybody disagree and if so why? CovenantD 23:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
There has been wholesale vandalism in this article in the last 24 hours. At least 4 sections have been deleted in their entirety (Li as Savior, Demons, Englightenment and Claims to Historical Significance) and entire new sections have been added in their place. This is a violation of Wikipedia policy and is counter-productive to editing a good article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomananda ( talk • contribs)
-- Tomananda 08:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The article is very well done compared to the previous versions. All the content from previous versions are there in the article, in good context. Falun Dafa is Good and no matter how much you try to make it seem otherwise, the truth comes out. It is only natural. What do you think you can make up Falun Gong to be a bunch of un-related facts paragraps.. demons.. homosexuality.. ?? All the edits you were doing had been severly criticized by other editors. Your cant continue to engage in this form of vandalism. The content you are trying to introduce has been demonstrated,repeatedly, to be baseless and from untrustworthy sources. There is no justification on your part for ignoring all that. Yesterday when the article was being Vandalized terribly.. All text and images being removed ( in the version you want to revert to also, the quotes by US Congress.. American Institute of Psychiartry and Law, all have been removed..) That is vandalism. Not putting the teachigns as the teachings.
Why do you delete the information related to Organ Transplants like transcript of audio conversations? Cant you see they are critical? How could you, if you have a bit of conscience, want to help hide such atrocities? Dilip rajeev 10:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Concerning your assertion that Falun Dafa is good...if it were good it would be able to stand on its own feet and not depend on the bullying tactics of a band of Falun Gong practitioners. You're sneaky editing tactics do not defend the name of Dafa...they reveal Dafa to be a weak paranoid fantasy of Li Hongzhi who has gotten practioners all over the world to do his bidding. It's all about defending his ego and reputation. The bullying tactics so many Falun Gong practitioners are using to edit this Wikipedia article are not unlike the bullying tactics Li organized back in the old days in China, when publishing offices were put under siege for days and honest empolyees were fired because they had the nerve to criticize your master. Li Hongzhi: if you are so great, why don't you come out of hiding and allow yourself to be interviewed by the American press? Again, I have great sympathy for you and the other practitioners. I do not have sympathy for Li.
Dilip: This debate has gone on for more than a month and for a while I though we were making progress by compromising. Why have you become so agressive with your edits all of a sudden? -- Tomananda 10:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
The article was in a terrible shape. Look at what was done to the article yesterday. All I have introduced are the central teachings of Falun Gong. And the content, needless to say, is un-disputable and UN-AVOIDABLE for an article like this. And all are sourced, contextual and very relevant to the article. I cant understand why anyone would make a huge issue out of it. Dilip rajeev 11:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
As I said in my last edit, at least 4 sections were deleted: Li as Savior, Demons, Englighenment and Claims to Historical Significance by practitioners such as Dilip or Mcconn or others. This is about practitioners dishonestly engaging in a major reorganization and deletion of whole sections of an article that has been worked on for many weeks without discussion or consensus. This is about the bullying tactics of the Falun Gong in general which can't stand to see it's own master's teachings reported in a balanced article on the Falun Gong. And it's about adding a great deal of self-promotional material which aims to obscure the core beliefs. I will do a separate posting requesting mediation right now. Fire Star and Mbovorofsy: do you agree?-- Tomananda 15:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
None of the factual material have been deleted. You had so absurdly presented those four sections as the teachings of Falun Dafa!!! Demons, homosexuality,.. what do yo uthink this is.. and on top of that if you go through the edits done a day back.. You can see how much you vandalized the article.
202.83.32.210 16:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Samuel Luo 18:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Fire Star, Tomananda, Samuel Luo, who are you people? personal attack removed? I read your writing, and it's like an exercise in irrationality. Will you three teach a class, maybe Fallacy 101? As I said before, God obviously didn't create all men equal. How sad. It still irks me that anyone would be as -- to actually equate Nazism with the ancient Swastika symbol. And I thought these were the worst arguments I had ever read, courtesy of Mr. Firestar and company. But now, I just see you people really are personal attack removed! Take a moment and look at your life. personal attack removed? I am so glad the White House event led me to this page. If it wasn't, and I never read this page, personal attack removed? . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.33.75.9 ( talk • contribs)
Get back to your desk, George - there's a war in progress. Etaonsh 11:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Please explain why so many photos showing scenes of meditation and lecturing are necessary.
I will say again this article is too large and either needs to be trimmed to a reasonable size or major sections need to be relocated and a link and a summary put in their place. CovenantD 19:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Looking both at the size of the article and the rather Herculean task of effectivly chopping the article down to size without destroying it's usefulness (not to mention protecting the articles from vandalizm) I would suggest that we create an offical Project:Falun Gong to organize and plan out how we are going to edit and improve all Wiki articles related to Falun Gong. But I'm not a good leader, and I'm not sure how many people would be willing to work on such a project, so it anyone willing to give it a shot? The Fading Light 7:16, 24 April 2006
It seems that we haven’t reached any form of consenses on the content from this article, therefore, upon Convenant’s request, I’m reposting the discussion here.
Samual wrote: Also, the sentence “According to a Chinese state-sponsored news report published six days after the persecution of Falun Gong officially began” in origins section is inappropriate. How would you like it if I added the following statement “According to the Falun Gong which is considered a deceptive cult by American cult experts” to all statements from the Epoch Times and the group?
Mcconn 05:28, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Mcconn yuo don't want to include info from the chinese media because you know what they say about Li is true. I came to this conclusion becasue practitioners like you keep deleting Li's own words, it suggests that you practitioners want to hide the truth. Editors on this page and our visitors are not babies and we don't need you to censor information for us. We don't need you to decide what information should be allowed. Reports from Chinese media should stay if those lies from FAlun Gong's mouth piece Epoch Times stays. -- Samuel Luo 07:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
A section like this shouldn't be weighted at the begininning of the article. However, if we broaden it under the heading "Organization and Financial Aspects" it may become more appropriate in this place. I think it would be better after the section on teachings though, since they are what Falun Gong is. Also, we should refrain from using the term "The Falun Gong". Practitioners do not recognize this title. We can instead use "Falun Gong" or "Falun Gong practitioners". In the case of this heading I don't it's necessary to use either, as in my suggestion. Mcconn 06:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Is Chinese Communism truly in a deadly struggle with Falun Gong, as we are led to believe, or is the similarity between Falun Gong's supremacist values and Chinese government abuses of Human Rights all too redolent of something else entirely? Etaonsh 12:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I feel that the promotion of an ideology of racist separate development smacks of a racism which is illegal here in Europe, let alone Communist China. I accept that Europe isn't always any more effective at enforcing such laws than the People's Republic - but can we 'call a spade a spade,' please? Etaonsh 12:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
"A Chinese Newspaper" is not a credible source. We must take into consideration the fact that there is Goverment Crackdown on Falun Gong and Media in Mainland China is tightly controlled by the state. Chinese Newspapers have made really absurd claims on Falun Gong.
Dilip rajeev 13:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
That is debatable, but at least you have left that assertion open to debate. When you recently reverted the Falun symbol caption back to 'no connection to Nazism' (a minority view here, IMHO) you didn't consult anybody, and left no comment.
If, as an Indian, you don't feel threatened by the Chinese racist supremacism implicit in Falun Gong, this suggests either irrationality or a bumptiousness never before observed in the Indian character. Or both. Etaonsh 14:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The wan is central to Indian Culture too. It is called Swastika here. It is found in ALL traditional Indian temples. Falun Dafa is cultivation practice and has nothing to do with any country. So many here in India practice it and it is popular through out the world. Many yoga experts consider Falun Gong a great practice. Dilip rajeev 14:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
And yet, despite all that, I read evidence in the article, totally undenied, that standard, fascistic views on topics like homosexuality and racial interbreeding are encouraged. Is this falacious, or just a part of the elephant you don't observe? Etaonsh 15:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Then why didn't somebody revert the bit that said that Li's philosophy opposes interracial marriage, in the interests of Wikipedian enlightenment? Or is there a China/India split on this? Etaonsh 18:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Tomananda 19:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
'Interracial people are a problem'? That statement, if accurately reported, is simply unacceptable in this crude form. 'The gods don't know what to do with them'? Likewise, altho it sounds like a clumsy way of stating that their mixed race creates problems for astrologers, who typically would assign a star sign/ruling planet/element to each race. I expect Li is, for once, in harmony with the CCP on the subject of homosexuality. 'Elimination' of evil or of the evil? Anti-communism? This wouldn't fit in here, where apolitical organisations are largely regulated and have to remain apolititical, for tax purposes. Etaonsh 19:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Fire Star,
There is so much vandalism on the article.. So much content has been deleted.. sections on awards deleted.. section saying epoch times is a publication of Falun Gong.. Many relevant pictures deleted( including self-immolation gif).. please allow me to fix a bit of the vandalism before the article is locked..
Dilip rajeev 14:51, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
l
The recent edit wars and resulting block are evidence that we editors aren't using this talk page enough before we make changes to a very controversial article. We can change that, if everybody is willing to work together.
I'd like to archive the talk page and try a fresh start, focusing on making the article the best it can be. We could start with discussing a basic outline, target size, and what to summarized and split off into their own articles. I'd like us to agree that NO changes are made to the article itself UNTIL we've reached 60% agreement on the edit (similar to the size needed for a merge or deletion). Anybody else interested in trying for a NPOV article of proper size? CovenantD 15:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to keep popping up here but I need to clear up a misunderstanding - I am not 'anti-FLG' as implied. I am prepared to countenance a truce with them on the basis that they show due understanding and appreciation of how their views and symbols have come across to those fully informed of matters political, and of modern history. At the moment we are at a level of discussion whereby the best I can expect in that regard is something along the lines of, 'Shucks! - is that fascism? We're sorry, we had no idea, we've been too busy practising our exercises/we've never been allowed to do politics, here.' Etaonsh 15:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
You sound a very busy individual, and perhaps therefore haven't had time to recognise that the problem here isn't just about the manji symbol, but the fact of its export to the West in conjunction with fascistic ideology. Also, there is something a touch personal about that comment, if I'm not mistaken, for all your academic pretensions. Etaonsh 17:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
If you, as someone involved in the field, so to speak, feel that 'tall claims' are an issue, to conceal such from the readership would hardly do us a service; especially if, as you imply, you have balancing compliments to contribute. Surely that is what neutrality is - to put both sides of an issue, however faintly appetising the result. But I suspect you aren't entirely neutral - you want to promote this type of activity and would, it appears, rather gloss over the 'embarrassing bits.' Given that Falun Gong has effectively presented the CCP with an appreciable, sizeable challenge to its political authority (massive demos, however 'peaceful,' are a show of strength and destructive potential) I don't see why you want to apply different standards between it and the (reportedly smaller) CCP. FLG has become political - asserting homophobia and Apartheid is few persons' idea of 'meditative exercise.' Your assertion re 'mainstream churches' is debatable - I understood that they all followed a principle of voluntary contributions? In an ideal world, a renunciation of the fascistic values associated with the swastika, coming direct from Li Hongzhi himself, would have averted hours wasted in revert war and debate here. However, it is hard to see this coming while he clings on to the usual homophobia and Apartheid, which, by what appears to be one of the most amazing coincidences in history, happens to be shared by his army of associates with shared interests in meditative exercise. Etaonsh 16:22, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
You say, 'in one statement you seem to regard practitioners as people of low intelligence or low understanding of the world around them.' I was being kind/diplomatic: the more likely explanation of those who promote fascistic ideology while denying it is that they are deliberately deceiving us. Not that I necessarily accept the view, which has been touted here, that all practitioners are, by some mystery, in accord - and would like to explore that unlikelihood, if we may, with their co-operation(?). Etaonsh 17:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Etanosh,
It is a Buddhist symbol. See Swastika See this page .. http://www.swastika-info.com/en/worldwide/asia/1110151045.html
"Some people have said, “This symbol looks like that thing Hitler had.” I can tell you that this symbol doesn’t have anything to do with any social clashes. Some people say that if the corner tilted to this side it would be Hitler’s thing. That’s not an issue, since it turns both ways. This symbol was widely known in the world 2,500 years ago, it was back in Shakyamuni’s time that they got to know it. It’s only been a few decades since the time of Hitler and World War II, and he stole this symbol for his own use. But the color of his was different from ours, it was black, and what’s more, its corner pointed upward and it stood on its end, it was vertical" -Zhuan Falun'
See http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm Also http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm
You see the swastika on many ancient Buddha Statues and pictures of Hindu Gods.
202.138.112.252 16:20, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes. It is also a Buddhist symbol. This is the difference between me and my detractors - I don't deny your truths, but you deny mine. Etaonsh 16:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
In the text accidently removed you raised out some points, to sum up:
1. "...in modern history terms, the swastika represents Nazi oppression. In Chinese terms, it represents a past in which the children of the poor were sold into Buddhist monasteries - oppression again"
2. Enter ' Falun Gong'...etc
3. Don't take it personally, as a personal attack on your motives, or, for a moment, think that anyone is moved by any suggestion that what I am saying here is somehow irrelevant to the topic.
-- Yenchin 05:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
There has been a lot of blatant vandalism. Self-Immolation Gif Deleted. Section on Awards Deleted,transcriptions of audio conversations on by WOIPFG deleted. And even a whole section Section saying Epoch Times is run by Falun Gong. Editors are requested to please protect the article from vandalism. Dilip rajeev 16:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
= 'Suicide is shameless.' How religious/meditationally focussed/right-thinking is that? Etaonsh 16:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Who said that?
Fire Star,
This is not about the edits. You mentioned the topic of Small and Great Heavenly circuits. I know that in most Qi Gong systems it is considered the highest level of practice. In Falun Gong within a few weeks of practice, most practitioners can objectively feel the rotations of the Great heavenly circuit and Maoyou heavenly circuit. I myself can. And remember that there is no mind-activity or imagination whatsoever in Falun Gong practice. It is not wise to reject something just because it is not in-line with out notions. It is un-necessary to accept or reject something when we understand it. Truth has nothing to do with we start believing or stop believing.
Opening of the heavenly circuits is just the first step in Falun Gong practice.If you can try the exercises, cultivate your mind-nature - you can verify that for yourself.. There is absolutely no need to believe or dis-believe what I say.
Remember that Master Da Liu, the master who introduced Tai Chi to North America said at the age of 95 that he asks ALL his students to learn Falun Gong.. Dilip rajeev 18:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Dilip
I don't understand all this stuff about 'Small and Great Heavenly circuits' and 'rotating Faluns/Gongs?' but I hope, for your sake, that it's true and meaningful. Above all it's not political rant. It reminds me of stuff I heard at astrology meetings before gradually learning to respect aspects of their hidden knowledge, without yet totally embracing the subject. Oh, and, for the record, they sometimes trip themselves up when they, sometimes unwittingly, perhaps, stray from their specialist topic into matters political. I hope that clarifies my position, and my desire for enlightenment in accordance with Wikipedia principles(?). Etaonsh 19:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
1. This statement “There is no concept of membership in Falun Gong” in the introduction is not sourced, shouldn’t it be included?
2. This statement “Li refused the house according to the practitioner who bought the house in this letter [11]. The house which Mr. Li admitted to living in in the report was at least partially paid for by James Pang, "who was among Mr. Li's first followers in the U.S. and helped rent the Queens apartment for Mr. Li" in the Financial and business aspects of the Falun Gong section is a personal statement from a practitioner published on Falun Gong website. Shouldn’t it be included?
3. It is very ironic that being a critic of the Falun Gong, I have been the one restoring Li’s statements repeatedly deleted by practitioners. Can practitioners stop concealing the Master’s teachings? -- Samuel Luo 18:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Samuel,
I was going through the edit History. I am sorry but Vandalism is the only word I can find to describe what you have been doing. We all have a POV but remember that this is an encyclopaedia article. You have repeatedly ignored discussion on the talk page. Repeatedly deleted content from the article including whole sections, The Tiananmen Square Video Gif( repeatedly - inspite of other editors asking you not to ); Content from Organ Transplants section, Deleted the whole awards and Recognitions section, New York times figure on the number of practitioners, relevant content from several sections and much more and ignored repeated requests from other editors to stop vandalizing the article. Please go through your own edits over the past three days.
Despite editors repeatedly pointing out that the Epoch Times is an Independent News Agency, You kept Introducing a section saying "Major Publications of Falun Gong" -- in which you say Epoch times is run by Falun Gong. The above mentioned are just a part of what you have deleted.
Dilip rajeev 18:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree but it is urgent that we restore the vandalized material, of which the above mentioned are but just a part. We need to be careful abou the source we use. Chinese newspapers have carried really absurd stories. We cant have them as a credible source. And whenever somebody puts a quote in editors are requested to look at the context in which it was said... Just look at the critical material section.. The quotes are so terribly out of context.. Then sobody who talks about a falun rotating in the "wrong direction"!!! SO absurd.. The books clearly say the falun rotates in both directions..
" When Falun rotates clockwise, it can automatically absorb energy from the universe. Rotating counter-clockwise, it can give off energy. Inward (clockwise) rotation offers self- salvation while outward (counter-clockwise) rotation offers salvation to others—this is a feature of our practice. Zhuan Falun, Lecture 5
Dilip rajeev 18:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Samuel Luo 19:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
-- Samuel Luo 19:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
"No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee."
--- John Donne
Fnhddzs 20:03, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Right now a lot of the "critical info" against Falun Gong is sourced with western scholars, but in many cases those scholars are only quoting Communist Party sources. I have placed a question regarding this issue on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Can_a_POV_Source_be_presented_as_NPOV_if_a_neutral_person_quotes_it.3F and basically the response i got was: "Attribute the POV to those who hold it, present any opposing view points (attributing those view points as well), don't state or imply that any POV is right or wrong." and "Quotes inside another source should not be used: locate the original." So in an effort to give orignal sources i have finally obtained a copy of: Tong, James (September 2002). An Organizational Analysis of the Falun Gong: Structure, Communications, Financing. The China Quarterly" and so i know which original sources he uses for the relevant accusations and will therefore use those original sources in the article. This should be done with the other sources (that are not original sources) as well. -- Hoerth ( talk) 12:04, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
A thought: I think it's appropriate to find and present the context in which these things are being said. If there are academics or journalists writing how it was part of the CCP's propaganda campaign to portray Falun Gong as a highly organised, money-making institution, then that information would be relevant in presenting those claims. This is being responsible and helpful to the reader, to get a picture of what is going on. Of course, it wouldn't make sense if the primary sources being quoted were prior to 7/20. But if they were post-7/20 regime sources, and then you have scholars explaining how post-7/20 regime sources had X and Y strategy in portraying Falun Gong, as part of this wider campaign, then I think that's relevant--I doubt anyone would dispute that. That's one thought I had.-- Asdfg 12345 14:53, 4 January 2010 (UTC)