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Just explaining this rv [1]. There are two matters at play, and I'll state my views on both. First is the deletion of what the Falun Gong believe. This is the oft-heard "truthfulness" etc. Believe it or not, that is what is in the doctrines and scriptures and is repeated regularly in the literature — so obviously that stuff has to say. We can personally not believe it, but we cannot delete it for that reason. The second is the Kavan addition. Firstly, the source is a conference paper which as anyone who has experience in academia would know, are not nearly equivalent to a peer reviewed paper. Secondly, we could debate her credentials — she is an NRM scholar, does not speak Chinese from what I can tell of her bio (a fairly significant deficit for a scholar who wishes to opine on a Chinese religion) — but I guess it's not necessary given the first problem. And thirdly, she didn't quite say what Bink said she said. Her interpretation of the quoted line is in question anyway. It may be helpful to compare Kavan's work to something like Penny and Ownby. There is a reason they are the leading scholars on this. Scholarship is not about simply dishing out one's opinions; and not every opinion that appears by anyone with a job to ever be published is suitable for us to quote. If it were, this page would be 10x longer than its current length.
As a general rule, we should prefer facts (or the closest we can get to them) over opinions. And if we are getting into opinions, which we always will, then they should be discussed thematically. For instance, the generic problem she is discussing is how the Falun Gong represent their beliefs. I'm actually not sure how much this comes up in the scholarship — but at the very least, extrapolating from a throwaway line that a non-Chinese speaking expert of somewhat dubious credential (at least versus actual experts) says in a conference paper... certainly does not do all the work we might wish, such as allowing us to delete what the core beliefs are and instead assert that the core beliefs are lies. Which the source does not even say. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 13:29, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
I spent my limited daily reading time today reviewing Kavan’s papers. Kavan’s essay, ”Friendly Fire: How Falun Gong Mistook Me For an Enemy"[12] was interesting and I ended up reading every word.
My conclusion: arguments about the reliability of this source aside, Binkersnet has not accurately represented the content of this essay.
This essay makes no claims about FG being “instructed to conduct psychological warfare”, contrary to Binksternet’s representation. The essay makes no claim about FG members acting under “instructions”. Much less does the essay support Binksternet’s overarching claim about such instructions originating from Li Hongzhi.
To be fair, the essay indicates (though not quite explicitly) that some members of FG use harmful psychological tactics on misidentified enemies. However, the essay, in the same breath, makes it clear that such tactics are not shared by all, and in fact, damage “the reputations of innocent members who genuinely embrace ‘truth, compassion and forbearance”. Kavan also speaks about her receiving messages from the Falun Dafa Association, where “the author apologised for members harassing me”. Finally Kavan does not rule out the possibility that many of these harmful tactics may originate from Falun Gong impersonators, though Kavan seems dubious about this.
If Binksternet’s claim is true, then the Falun Dafa Association must either be rebelling against Li Hongzhi, or Li has no control over the Association. Both contradicts Binksternet’s claims.
Crucially, Kavan’s essay ends with the following final thoughts: “the irony of the conflict is that scholars and practitioners have much in common. Both engage in mental challenges that require intense focus—practitioners in meditation and scholars in academic discovery. Both seek knowledge—for practitioners, spiritual revelations, and for academics, nuggets of information. Most important, both aim to be loyal to their values regardless of political influences, with practitioners upholding their right to religious freedom and scholars upholding their right to academic freedom.”
Here is my concern about editors presenting a lot of sources, and representing them without care. A lot of this misinformation finds its way into wikipedia, simply because other editors do not have the time to verify such claims. HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 14:46, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Is there are reason why we still have massive block quotes on the page? The LA Magazine article that is excerpted at great length does not even appear to exist. TheBlueCanoe 13:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
ABC News (Australia) recently published an article on Falun Gong, Dragon Springs, and Falun Gong extensions like The Epoch Times:
A few quotes:
I've seen the comments from Li regarding aliens and 'race-mixing' come up quite a few times now, but it is nowhere in the article. The same goes for Shen Yun's attitude toward medicine. Given the state of the article until it received scrutiny a few months ago, this is hardly a surprise, but Li espousing alien plots and racism is deeply fringe stuff, and notable.
Further, on the closeness between Falun Gong media entities and Trump campaign figures:
A group of editors entrenched on this page regularly attempts to downplay anything and remove anything found on this article that does not adhere to Falun Gong's narrative about itself, including discussion of Dragon Springs. Sections regarding Falun Gong's approach to medicine, race, homosexuality, and aliens are also relevant and should be in the article. :bloodofox: ( talk) 17:22, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
@
Horse Eye Jack,
Bstephens393,
Bloodofox,
Cleopatran Apocalypse,
TheBlueCanoe, and
Binksternet: Due to the continual edit warring, I have full protected the article until you all can assure myself or another administrator that all of you will play nicely with one another. Until that time, all edits to the article need a clear consensus here on this talk page. Once that happens, please use {{
Edit fully protected}}
to ask an administrator to implement the change. Further, everyone pinged here is placed under a
0RR for this article and will be notified of this sanction on their talk pages. --
Guerillero |
Parlez Moi 19:34, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
@
Guerillero:Might I suggest restoring the 02:34, 29 June 2020 version per
WP:STATUSQUO?
Here is that version:
[5]
Here is the diff from the current version:
[6]
Anyone who was involved in the edit war and thinks that we just protected
the wrong version might want to consider whether the 02:34, 29 June 2020 version is better. --
Guy Macon (
talk) 00:38, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Apologies if I'm repeating myself a bit here, because the last time I started this thread it was derailed. Over the last two months or so, changes have been made to the lede section that either were not discussed, or which failed to achieve consensus on this page. In my last edit, as before, I've tried to retain some of the new information that was aded where it had merit, but keeping in mind the principles of WP:WEIGHT, WP:LEDE, and WP:NPOV. I'll explain the rationale here:
I was looking through old versions of the article, and other reports about Falun Gong, and found some sources that we could use. Binksternet ( talk) 20:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
We should also mention Samuel Luo, an ex-Falun Gong member who exposed a lot of the group's inner workings on a website some time around 2003 or 2004 (I'm guessing.) The Press Telegram says Luo was hounded by Falun Gong who tried to suppress his website. SFGate reported the same thing, as did the San Diego Union Tribune. He's also in the New Yorker piece that we already cite. Roman scholar Leonardo Sacco cites Samuel Luo in his scholarly article "Is Falun Gong a Sect or a Religious Movement? A Comparative Approach?" published in 2011. Samuel Luo is part of the Falun Gong story. Binksternet ( talk) 20:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
One of the most important and common methods that cults use to control their followers can be called "exclusion of the outside world." Cult members are taught not to trust people outside of the group, including family members. This component of mind control is definitely found in the Falun Gong teachings. Falun Gong practitioners are made to distrust the moral thinking of non-practitioners who are called "ordinary people". This is done intentionally by master Li, who repeatedly teaches: "As a practitioner you cannot act according to the ordinary people‘s standards."(15) This manipulation technique not only isolates practitioners from non-practitioners, including family members and friends, but also creates a system where practitioners only share information with other practitioners. As a result, practitioners mutually reinforce each other‘s belief in the teachings, thereby eliminating any conflicting or alternative views.
Patsy Rahn's paper [13] which we already cite compares Falun Gong to previous religious sectarian rebellions in China, the most recent being Yiguandao. We should tell the reader about the extensive experience of sectarian revolt in China, which was not always damaging to the government, but was viewed suspiciously because of the great damage possible. Successive governments quashed every sectarian rebellion except the one led by Zhu Yuanzhang who overthrew the government in 1368 and established the Ming dynasty with himself on the throne. The Yiguandao sect was suppressed by the Qing government, the Nationalist Kuomintang and the Chinese Communist Party. All of these Chinese governments agreed that a religious sect with millions of followers was a dangerous entity to allow within China. Something about this, explicitly naming Yiguandao, should be in the article. At the very least we should cite Rahn in the first paragraph of the section "Causes" which is looking for a citation. Binksternet ( talk) 19:41, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
In 2012, the Atlantic ran a piece about the stability (or not) of the Chinese government. [14] They said that the Chinese Communist Party's crackdown of Falun Gong seems "less surprising" after considering that the Qing Dynasty succumbed to internal pressure from anti-Manchu secret societies (also to foreign pressure), and the Kuomintang succumbed to a movement from inside China (also war with Japan). Which explains the harsh defensive measures taken by the CCP in 1999, who were trying to prevent another internal movement taking over the government. Binksternet ( talk) 06:10, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Junker is cited in the article but he wrote another piece which would be very useful: "The Transnational Flow of Tactical Dispositions" (2014). Junker compares Minyun and Falun Gong tactics in their two very different forms of protest against the Chinese government. Among the interesting observations delivered by Junker are that the two groups have some overlap in membership, that Falun Gong was aware of the failure of Minyun tactics, and that the Falun Gong movement is both religious and political in aim. Junker says that the Falun Gong's practice of "clarifying truth" to outsiders is for spreading the group's story of persecution, not for recruiting. Junker calls Li Hongzhi a faith healer in the early years of Falun Gong. In 2019, Junker published another comparison of Minyun and Falun Gong: "Comparing Falun Gong and Minyun as Movements". We should incorporate some of this material. Binksternet ( talk) 19:14, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Falun Gong and "Falung Gong media" again in the news, this time for more pro-Trump shadow groups and in Romania, as reported by Reuters:
Source:
At this point, "Falun Gong media" seems to be the better phrase than "extensions". :bloodofox: ( talk) 23:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
I have downgrade the protection to extended confirmed protection and downgraded the consensus required restriction to "All edits to the article need a clear consensus on this talk page for the change if challenged" after the past month of full protection. Please let me know if you have any questions -- Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Please, under the Dragon Springs compound in Deerpark, New York section, add a {{Main|Dragon Springs}}
template and on the sentence "Falun Gong operates out of Dragon Springs, a 400-acre compound located in Deerpark, New York." link to the page
Dragon Springs.
Hanif Al Husaini (
talk) 01:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
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Under the section about media outlets controlled by Fulan Gong, a new media outlet known as China Uncensored is gaining popularity and it is controlled by the religious movement. [15] [16] 173.79.246.41 ( talk) 00:42, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
{{
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template. Thank you very much for your suggestion!
P.I. Ellsworth
ed.
put'r there 21:33, 4 September 2020 (UTC)It seems to me that there also should be space dedicated to the criticism of elements of Falun Gong, such as the cult-like environment, the cult of personality of Li Hongzhi, the opposition to homosexuality, the opposition to Western evidence-based science and medicine, all of which are not mentioned at all in the article. One thing that is mentioned, but briefly, is its involvement with far-right political groups and media Eccekevin ( talk) 00:07, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Is [ https://en.falundafa.org/ [ the official website of Falun Gong? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 13:11, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Moscow,-Falun-Gong-banned-for-'religious-extremism'-51568.html -- 178.142.100.45 ( talk) 09:50, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Writing back in 2018, academic James R. Lewis discusses something numerous editors on this page have also noted over the past several months: Falun Gong's continued and aggressive influence on Falun Gong-related English Wikipedia entries, and how "relevant Wikipedia entries turn out to be little more than mouthpieces for the FLG point of view" (p. 81).
The source:
Lewis highlights Falun Gong's extensive internet presence, and how editors who have to date contributed to English Wikipedia entries associated with Falun Gong to the point where "Falun Gong followers and/or sympathizers de fact control the relevant pages on Wikipedia" (p. 80), and how this is particularly important for Falun Gong as an organization due to the SEO results of these entries and how the entries can influence other media entities. Leiws notes also how this fits in as part of Falun Gong's general media strategy, such as Falun Gong media like The Epoch Times, New Tang Dynasty, Sound of Hope Radio, and, as Lewis discusses, the Rachlin media group. Lewis reports that the Rachlin media group is the Falun Gong's de facto PR firm operated by Gail Rachlin, spokesperson for the Falun Dafa Information Centre. (p. 80). Lewis also discusses how Amnesty International apparently does not independently verify its reports from Falun Gong groups, accepting material directly from Falun Gong organizations as fact (p. 80).
Here's a quote that sums it up:
- FLG has thus been able to influence other media via its presence on the web, through its direct press releases, and through its own media. (p. 80)
Currently any comment or discussion left on this talk page gets met with the same group of accounts, who produce talking points as if on cue and fight tooth and nail to maintain a status quo that reads like any Falun Gong-related press release. This is very much in line with what Lewis describes (my bolding):
- The Falun Gong organization has been most successful at promoting itself to the world outside of mainland China as a peaceful exercise group being unfairly targeted by the Chinese government. As we have seen, this is partly the result of denying or downplaying the aspects of Li Hongzhi's teachings that are vengeful, belligerent, or violent. However, it also the result of a conscious media strategy that involves, on the one hand, creating its own media outlets, and, on the other hand, taking advantage of anti-PRC sentiments in Western media. (p. 76)
The presence and activities of Falun Gong editors has plagued these articles for a long time-including now—and not only do we need coverage of this in the article, but we need an immediate crack down on accounts pushing Falun Gong talking points. Enough is enough: It's time to block the Falun Gong PR accounts and build a reliable, neutral article on Falun Gong and related topics. :bloodofox: ( talk) 01:04, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, he is apparently a scholar. However, his support of Aum Shinrikyo that organized the famous Tokyo subway sarin attack gives me a pause. According to this, for example, J. Gordon Melton, one of the NRM specialists involved, shortlyafterwards concluded that Aum had in fact been involved in the attack and other crimes. Lewis, however, ... went so far as to publish an article that suggested that the Aum affair was “Japan’s Waco,”... In suggesting that Aum had been framed, Lewis outlined his hypothesis that it “was being made to play the role of scapegoat for the incompetence of the authorities at the highest levels of the Japanese government.". Therefore, I would not recommend using his views for sourcing anywhere in WP.
Hey! Looking through the article, I've noticed that the article uses static form references rather than the more broadly used citation templates ({{ Cite web}} etc). Since the citations are there, this isn't exactly super critical, but it's a reasonable thing to look at working on to make sure this article is maintainable and the references keep consistent with the broader citation system on English Wikipedia. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 09:44, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
The title text of the image of “Tang Yongjie” cites no sources. In addition, the remainder of the “Conversion program” section relies heavily on one source, and the copy should make this more clear (Perhaps by adding “James Tong details...” to the second through fourth paragraphs.) Mouthpity ( talk) 01:40, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Based on this, [1]
References
In Deutschland existiert eine Vielzahl an alternativen Nachrichten-Plattformen von Rechtsaußen. Der Reuters Institute Digital News Report 2019 nennt Junge Freiheit, Compact online, PI News und Epoch Times als Plattformen mit der häufigsten Nutzung (Newman 2019: 86).[In Germany there is a large number of alternative news platforms from the far-right. The Reuters Institute Digital News Report 2019 names Junge Freiheit, Compact online, PI News and Epoch Times as the platforms with the most frequent use (Newman 2019: 86).]
it seems rather clear that Falun Gong is also a far-right political movement, as opposed to merely a new religious movement. I think the article should specify this, stating that Falun Gong is a new religious movement whose political wing advocates far-right politics and conspiracy theories. So far the article is heavily biased against the Communist Party of China, while giving insufficient weight to the government's side and that of other Falun Gong critics. CapeVerdeWave ( talk) 13:39, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
This article comes across as somewhat biased in favor of Falun Gong. There should be a section describing the controversies and/or criticism of the organization if Wikipedia is to stay neutral. 1.53.33.50 ( talk) 15:50, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I agree with OP. Recently looked into Chinese traditional medicines including Tai Chi, Qigong and later Falun Gong in particular for quite some time now. Realised Falun Gong isn't just harmless fitness activities. Its leader is quite literally being regarded by the group as the "only one" that can save mankind according to even the leader's own words on his Time interview. It operates like a cult. http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html
So the intro of the Wikipedia article is questionable as it claims that Falun Gong is being opposed merely on political grounds and gives the impression that it is harmless. However from what I read, that's not even close to the case at all. The leader had encouraged others to not take modern medicine and to take his words that literally evil space aliens gave mankind all our modern technology in order to corrupt our souls. And that race mixing is also evil as well as taking modern medicine or trusting technology. And to also never trust the advice of any scientists or the government or basically anyone but only the leader and the leader alone. (Last 5 paragraphs in http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html )You cannot make this up. People have died from following such advice. https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-abc-is-right-that-falun-gong-teachings-are-dangerous/12538058
It's some petty messed up teachings regardless if you agree it is a cult or not. To claim in intro that Falun Gong is banned in China only because of its popularity, seems like a really oversimplified western centric reasoning that leaves out the fact that Falun Gong teachings are indeed dangerous. And given how dangerous and extremist some of Li's teachings are, it's responsible for Wikipedia to add in a "Detailed and proper" section for the controversies and/or criticism of the organization. Ironically there seems to be alot of (criticism section) on Chinese traditional medicines articles yet there is none for this article. Casualfoodie ( talk) 13:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Casualfoodie ( talk) 13:39, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
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I do not know the terminology or Grammer I plan to use,but I wanted to in the section on the Communist crackdown on Fulan Gong amongst the things CP of PRC has called it "counter-revolutionary" and "reactionary". Just to give more depth to the political rhetoric. SouthernGentleman00 ( talk) 05:23, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
I find this article to be too lengthy for the little amount of concrete information it gives. Especially when explaining its religious views and practices, going very abstract without compromising with a definition. I don't see a need to erase these, but at the very least there could be a decent overview of its practices and what constitutes moral behavior and action. I understand it might be hard if no sources address it in clear-cut terms, having to rely on the sect's self-introduction which, according to the body of text itself, is purposefully fuzzy and has members skirt around definitions to protect the movement. 2804:7F0:3989:4E4F:81FD:697C:3B08:68F ( talk) 18:30, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the categorization explains why the group doesn't qualify as a sect under one definition but fails to do so for the accusation of it being a cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:D104:5A00:6829:F14E:9BDC:FD2B ( talk) 23:32, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
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Delete the sentence that says “These principles have been repeated by Falun Gong members to outsiders as a tactic for evading deeper inquiry, and followers have been instructed by Li to lie about the practice” and delete the accompanying footnote 36.
That sentence is false. Footnote 36 cites an article by Heather Kavan, which accuses Li Hongzhi of instructing followers to lie, but the lecture that her article cites and links to (Touring North America to Teach the Fa, 2002, https://falundafa.org/book/eng/na_lecture_tour.htm) contradicts her. The full paragraph in which Kavan claims Li instructed followers to lie reads as follows:
“What Dafa disciples are to do today is be responsible to Dafa. Don’t touch the things in everyday people’s society. When you clarify the truth don’t say high-level things; the main thing isn’t to have people understand what the high-level, profound Fa is. Well, people who are particularly good are an exception, and you can tell them about it. But when you clarify the truth to an average person, just tell him that we’re being persecuted and that we’re only doing exercises and trying to be good people, and they’ll be able to understand. After they learn about the truth, people will see all the propaganda for what it is, lies, and they’ll naturally see how despicable and evil it is. After people become aware they will be indignant: “How can a government act like a bunch of hoodlums? You’ve been persecuted so badly, and you’re persecuted just for trying to be good people.” Just use the simplest ideas when you talk to people. Not only will they be able to accept it and understand it, but they’ll also be less apt to misunderstand. You’ve cultivated for such a long time now, and your understanding of the Fa is quite deep. If you talk about your high-level understanding of the Fa, it will be hard for everyday people to understand, and it’s likely they will misunderstand; you have come to the high-level understanding you have today only after a long process of cultivation. You want people to immediately understand things at a level that high, but they won’t be able to, so don’t talk to them at too high a level. Even when you clarify the truth to religious people you shouldn’t talk at a high level. Just talk about the persecution we’ve suffered. If they don’t want to hear about other spiritual beliefs, we don’t talk to them about spiritual beliefs; tell them that we’re just doing exercises. It’s hard to save people nowadays. You have to explain things to them by following the logic of their attachments. For the sake of saving them, don’t create any obstacles for them.”
Nowhere in that passage did Li instruct followers to lie. Nor did he say anything close to that. Kavan quotes the "tell them we're just doing exercises" phrase out of context, by omitting the beginning of the sentence ("If they don't want to hear about other spiritual beliefs...") The gist of Li's comment would be more accurately characterized as “keep it simple,” which is not a dishonest sentiment. Kavan’s article misrepresented the source that she cited. Her misrepresentation should have no place in this Wikipedia article. JackUpdike ( talk) 05:26, 22 November 2021 (UTC) JackUpdike ( talk) 05:26, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 12:01, 22 November 2021 (UTC)in reality falun gong is cult. accept it or don't. In the "International Reception" section it doesn't mention the numerous sources proving that its a far right "hitlery" type movement making the creator of it look like a god. FizzoXD ( talk) 14:56, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Agree. This article (not sure if that's the correct term) has a clear bias towards Falun Gong, in my opinion. I feel like the "International Reception" section should have mentioned that many sources accept it is a cult, if not having separate cult accusations/controversy section. OffendedPerson ( talk) 02:45, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
I came here to say this, in the hopes that someone with more time and academic ability than me could fix it. Here's a decent source, for whoever feels up to it: https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-abc-is-right-that-falun-gong-teachings-are-dangerous/12538058. There are of course many more out there, it doesn't take long to find them. At the very least there needs to be a "Controversies" section, and a more even-handed explanation as to why they might be opposed by the government. 2601:18E:C300:1190:A0F8:E706:91E4:3D49 ( talk) 04:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Currently this article suffers from out of date sourcing, dubious sources, and the impact of Falun Gong adherents editing and censoring the article for several years. The primary goal during this period appears to have been to present Falun Gong as a victim in need of support, while hiding the actual structure and reality—such as Falun Gong's compound and centralization around its founder—wherever possible. The article, as it exists, is an absolutely mess, and reads like a propaganda leaflet more than a true account of the Falun Gong's history and reality. :bloodofox: ( talk) 04:48, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
There is a place showing biased view when using the word "lie". Its highly subjective for a neutral report. Taken humanely, the word is even offensive. 14.232.89.200 ( talk) 14:45, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
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In the introductory five paragraphs, I recommend moving the 5th paragraph up to follow the first paragraph. In other words, instead of following the initial facts with three paragraphs of history and one paragraph of its current extensions, political involvement, and ideological messaging, move that last paragraph to become the second paragraph.
I am a journalist and hold a Ph.D. in English from UC Berkeley. Most Wikpedia users will seek information after contact with Falun Gong through one of its extensions or through The Epoch Times. They may never read on to the fifth paragraph but leave while wading through current paragraphs 2, 3, and 4. The information in the fifth paragraph is more pertinent to the average person's curiosity. If still interested, they can read the history and then read the entire Wikipedia entry.
I attended a demonstration on Feb. 27 to support Ukraine and oppose Putin's aggression. Falun Gong members were there promoting endccp.com with elegant, color brochures. I see The Epoch Times every time I enter a grocery store. People who want information about Falun Gong and rely on Wikipedia deserve more than this intro that, as you note, presents FG "in a positive rather than neutral manner." Anne Linstatter ( talk) 21:22, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:07, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
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After this sentence: "Falun Gong's cosmology includes the belief that different ethnicities each have a correspondence to their own heavens, and that individuals of mixed race lose some aspect of this connection.[43]"
Please include the following: They believe that mixed-race children cannot go to heaven without Li's personal intervention due to this.
Source: [18] 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 00:58, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
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In the final paragraph of the "Categorization" section, it is stated that 'according to Schechter, Falun Gong does not satisfy the definition of a "sect" or "cult."', but the following sentences only provide arguments on how it is not a sect. I propose either removing the 'or "cult"' part, adding arguments against that label, or just rewording the first sentence so the paragraph is focused on the "sect" aspect and let someone else write the "cult" part later (we should probably also define who Schechter is too), "Although it is commonly referred to a "sect" in journalistic literature, according to journalist/filmmaker/professor (whichever one works the best here) Danny Schechter, the Falun Gong does not satisfy the definition of that label.
Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aye-I-Eye ( talk • contribs) 20:01, March 23, 2022 (UTC)
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After this sentence: "Falun Gong's cosmology includes the belief that different ethnicities each have a correspondence to their own heavens, and that individuals of mixed race lose some aspect of this connection.[43]"
Please include the following: They believe that mixed-race children cannot go to heaven without Li's personal intervention due to this.
Source: [19] 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 21:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Los Angeles Magazine retracted the article cited at fn. 34, “Inside the Shadowy World of Shen Yun and Its Secret Pro-Trump Ties,” after it was sued for defamation because the article was false, and a federal judge entered an injunction prohibiting it from further publishing the article: https://mynewsla.com/crime/2020/07/20/judge-orders-los-angeles-magazine-to-remove-article-from-website/. See U.S. District Court for Central District of California, Case No. 2:20-cv-04680-GW-JEM, at Docket No 19 (LA Magazine stipulating that it would publish a retraction notice concerning the article) and Docket No. 20 (court order enjoining further publication of the article).
The article cannot be considered a reliable source. It is not even a published source anymore. All references to it, including the long block quote included with the second paragraph of the “Political Involvement” section, should be deleted ASAP. JackUpdike ( talk) 01:51, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
The categorization section has a sentence calling Freedom House an obscure think tank. As think tanks go it is one of the bigger ones and the sentence reads as just attacking the source for supporting Falun Gong.
Would recommend a change to something more NPOV 2A02:C7C:4E2C:1900:1891:B07F:A6CE:CEDA ( talk) 13:52, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
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“The practice initially enjoyed support from Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officials, but by the mid-to-late 1990s the government increasingly viewed Falun Gong as a potential threat due to its size, independence and spiritual teachings.” A comma should be added before “and”. Speatle ( talk to me) please ping me when replying to something I said. 16:06, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Delete the sentence that says “These principles have been repeated by Falun Gong members to outsiders as a tactic for evading deeper inquiry, and followers have been instructed by Li to lie about the practice,” and delete the accompanying footnote 36.
That sentence is false. Footnote 36 cites an article by Heather Kavan, which accuses Li Hongzhi of instructing followers to lie, but the lecture that her article cites and links to (Touring North America to Teach the Fa, 2002, https://falundafa.org/book/eng/na_lecture_tour.htm) contradicts Kavan. The full paragraph that Kavan quotes from reads as follows:
“What Dafa disciples are to do today is be responsible to Dafa. Don’t touch the things in everyday people’s society. When you clarify the truth don’t say high-level things; the main thing isn’t to have people understand what the high-level, profound Fa is. Well, people who are particularly good are an exception, and you can tell them about it. But when you clarify the truth to an average person, just tell him that we’re being persecuted and that we’re only doing exercises and trying to be good people, and they’ll be able to understand. After they learn about the truth, people will see all the propaganda for what it is, lies, and they’ll naturally see how despicable and evil it is. After people become aware they will be indignant: 'How can a government act like a bunch of hoodlums? You’ve been persecuted so badly, and you’re persecuted just for trying to be good people.' Just use the simplest ideas when you talk to people. Not only will they be able to accept it and understand it, but they’ll also be less apt to misunderstand. You’ve cultivated for such a long time now, and your understanding of the Fa is quite deep. If you talk about your high-level understanding of the Fa, it will be hard for everyday people to understand, and it’s likely they will misunderstand; you have come to the high-level understanding you have today only after a long process of cultivation. You want people to immediately understand things at a level that high, but they won’t be able to, so don’t talk to them at too high a level. Even when you clarify the truth to religious people you shouldn’t talk at a high level. Just talk about the persecution we’ve suffered. If they don’t want to hear about other spiritual beliefs, we don’t talk to them about spiritual beliefs; tell them that we’re just doing exercises. It’s hard to save people nowadays. You have to explain things to them by following the logic of their attachments. For the sake of saving them, don’t create any obstacles for them.”
Nowhere in that passage did Li instruct followers to lie. Nor did he say anything close to that. The gist of his comment would be more accurately characterized as “keep it simple,” which is hardly a dishonest sentiment. Kavan’s article grossly misrepresented Falun Gong teachings, and the source that she cited does not support her assertion at all. It is very unfair and misleading to include that false statement at the beginning of a section purporting to describe Falun Gong’s “central teachings.” JackUpdike ( talk) 03:47, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
[Report] of a statement by someone that seems out of character or against an interest they had previously defended—Falun Gong explicitly lists "truthfulness" as a principle. Since it concerns Li, who is a living person, it may be wise to err on the side of caution unless the claim is corroborated by other sources. Ipnsaepl28 ( talk) 15:21, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
This contested statement is currently in a very prominent position—right in the middle of a paragraph introducing Falun Gong's core beliefs. This seems to be problematic because (1) it breaks the flow of the paragraph and is followed by more description of the group's core beliefs that proceeds as though the intervening sentence didn't exist and (2) it is undue to give the statement such a prominent position when it is a claim or accusation made by two scholars rather than a broad consensus among reliable sources.
I believe this should be moved to the reception section. Per WP:CRIT, it is appropriate to use a reception/criticism section instead of interleaving criticisms in the rest of the article for articles about religions or viewpoints. Ipnsaepl28 ( talk) 02:01, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
define the topic, per due weight and other guidelines. Two scholars is not a lot, so the statement does not deserve to be placed right in the middle of the paragraph describing the Falun Gong's core teachings in a way that completely disrupts the flow of the paragraph. If the vast majority of scholars concluded the Falun Gong's practitioners were by and large mendacious, and were doing so at the behest of its founder, then it would be justified to put such a statement in a prominent position, but such a consensus among sources simply doesn't exist. Ipnsaepl28 ( talk) 03:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. In fact, I agreed with you that Kavan is a topic expert, and from the beginning of this conversation, my position has been based on the assumption that this is not fringe. Ipnsaepl28 ( talk) 17:34, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
This
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After this sentence: "Falun Gong's cosmology includes the belief that different ethnicities each have a correspondence to their own heavens, and that individuals of mixed race lose some aspect of this connection.[43]"
Please include the following: They believe that mixed-race children cannot go to heaven without Li's personal intervention due to this.
Source: [22] 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 13:26, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. You have requested this a number of times, and none of the nearly 1000 page watchers have implemented it. I suggest you try to convince people to include this, rather than opening a request every month or two.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 13:45, 10 July 2022 (UTC)Multiple testimonies by former FLG practitioners have either directly called the Falun Gong a cult or gave accounts that described Falun Gong to have cultic characteristics. A New York Times piece has described Shen Yun performances to also contain cultic characteristics. There are a wealth of opinion pieces on YouTube that describe the FLG as opinions, including ones from reputable sources critical of China. Therefore, acknowledging that parts of this article do deal with the characterization of FLG as a cult, I propose that the first sentence of the article be nevertheless changed to "Falun Gong has been variously described as a cult or a new religious movement" instead of "Falun Gong is a new religious movement" for NPOV and accuracy. Thank you. Cycw ( talk) 18:03, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
EDIT: Further sources. ABC opinion article on ex-Falun Gong practitioners (doesn't call FLG a cult), and that article writer's personal experience with Falun Gong, which does not call Falun Gong a cult but does state 'secretive' and 'controlling' aspects. An additional ABC article, detailing negative experiences in Falun Gong.
TypistMonkey ( talk) 05:51, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
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Please add Lewiston, New York: Edwin Mellen Press links to the notes/bibliography. Thanks Doodyalley ( talk) 14:15, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
"..the cycle of reincarnation, know in Buddhist tradition as samsara"
This is false. The Buddha did not teach reincarnation. Do not confuse this word with rebirth, which refers to something else. Different branches may have had disagreements on what part is being reborn, but, even then, why present something on Wikipedia as true when it is argued over. Even the article on Rebirth on this very website disagrees.
"Falun Gong differentiates itself from Buddhist monastic traditions in that it places great importance on participation in the secular world..."
There isn't a part of what the Buddha taught that is not secular.
The quote continues: "...Falun Gong practitioners are required to maintain regular jobs and family lives, to observe the laws of their respective governments, and are instructed not to distance themselves from society. An exception is made for Buddhist monks and nuns, who are permitted to continue a monastic lifestyle while practicing Falun Gong."
This does not "differentiate" itself from Buddhism. The Buddha taught for everyone, especially including the ordinary; or, people who maintain regular jobs and family lives. As much talk there is about the metaphysical side, many of his teachings were about family and society. It isn't hard to find this out. He did not say to "distance yourself" from society, he said very much the opposite. His teachings were meant to build societies.
There are many other references to how Falun Gong is similar to Buddhism, comparing its systems of meditation and practice, but then describing a different practice. This is fine because it's talking about Falun Gong, but it's very easy to assume that it's the case for Buddhist/Daoist as well because of its wording when it is not necessarily so, which falls under this theme of misinformation. If one of the goals is to deliver truth, fuzziness about what is what should be avoided.
Important example: "Central teachings" part talks about Karma, but it is a very different form from Falun Gong, then at the end technically claims it about Buddhism, but it is subtle wording: "...let go of 'attachments and desires' and suffer to repay karma. The ultimate goal of the practice is enlightenment or spiritual perfection (yuanman), and release from the cycle of reincarnation, known in Buddhist tradition as samsara"
Logically: "letting go of..." is "the practice". The goal of "the practice" is "known in Buddhism is called samsara", therefore Buddhist samsara derives from the practice of something from Falun Gong's karma. It doesn't directly say that the karma is the same, but it's very easy to confuse this when reading this. Buddhist Karma is not just only positive or negative, it literally translates to "action"; it's the nature of cause and effect by humans.
These aren't just my random opinions about it, either, you can easily find many things that claim opposite of these quotes. But, you don't have to, because no sources for any of these were provided in the first place. It may have had a source at the end of the sentence, but it would link to some unrelated website about Falun Gong: [67] Penny "The Religion of Falun Gong", [76] Porter "Falun Gong in the United States: An Ethnographic Study", .
These quotes should all be removed except the first part of the last. There isn't a good replacement for them.
It may not seem like these falsities about Buddhism aren't that important, that it doesn't matter, or it doesn't have an important effect, which would probably come from not seeing the big picture and purpose of each of these aspects of Buddhism, but they are spreading lies that disagree with the fundamental teachings of Buddhism. From the ones above (rebirth, secular, society), if you're curious, for being secular (or, being neutral, at least) the Buddha did not teach deities/images/idols/God because it disagrees with impermanence; they are permanent and powerful, except the world is changing: Buddha taught no such thing of permanence exists; they are idols to latch on to for comfort, all like self.
I've looked at other pages about Buddhism on Wikipedia, and there are a lot of problems, but I can't go through each on my own. This will probably be my only suggested edit, but just know there's a big problem with this here, and this is with basic facts about Buddhism, not even something that requires any devoted research to learn. Branboyer ( talk) 18:25, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
I don’t understand how an organization can be categorized as completely decentralized, while describing just how much absolute power and say the leader has on the organization. Even if their stated form of organization is one of decentralization, this shouldn’t just be taken at face value. 47.229.173.53 ( talk) 14:01, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
Falun gong is described as a "new religion". I believe it should be described as " cultivation practice". 2603:7081:3703:369C:2D91:E26F:BF0C:378B ( talk) 10:12, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 |
Just explaining this rv [1]. There are two matters at play, and I'll state my views on both. First is the deletion of what the Falun Gong believe. This is the oft-heard "truthfulness" etc. Believe it or not, that is what is in the doctrines and scriptures and is repeated regularly in the literature — so obviously that stuff has to say. We can personally not believe it, but we cannot delete it for that reason. The second is the Kavan addition. Firstly, the source is a conference paper which as anyone who has experience in academia would know, are not nearly equivalent to a peer reviewed paper. Secondly, we could debate her credentials — she is an NRM scholar, does not speak Chinese from what I can tell of her bio (a fairly significant deficit for a scholar who wishes to opine on a Chinese religion) — but I guess it's not necessary given the first problem. And thirdly, she didn't quite say what Bink said she said. Her interpretation of the quoted line is in question anyway. It may be helpful to compare Kavan's work to something like Penny and Ownby. There is a reason they are the leading scholars on this. Scholarship is not about simply dishing out one's opinions; and not every opinion that appears by anyone with a job to ever be published is suitable for us to quote. If it were, this page would be 10x longer than its current length.
As a general rule, we should prefer facts (or the closest we can get to them) over opinions. And if we are getting into opinions, which we always will, then they should be discussed thematically. For instance, the generic problem she is discussing is how the Falun Gong represent their beliefs. I'm actually not sure how much this comes up in the scholarship — but at the very least, extrapolating from a throwaway line that a non-Chinese speaking expert of somewhat dubious credential (at least versus actual experts) says in a conference paper... certainly does not do all the work we might wish, such as allowing us to delete what the core beliefs are and instead assert that the core beliefs are lies. Which the source does not even say. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 13:29, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
I spent my limited daily reading time today reviewing Kavan’s papers. Kavan’s essay, ”Friendly Fire: How Falun Gong Mistook Me For an Enemy"[12] was interesting and I ended up reading every word.
My conclusion: arguments about the reliability of this source aside, Binkersnet has not accurately represented the content of this essay.
This essay makes no claims about FG being “instructed to conduct psychological warfare”, contrary to Binksternet’s representation. The essay makes no claim about FG members acting under “instructions”. Much less does the essay support Binksternet’s overarching claim about such instructions originating from Li Hongzhi.
To be fair, the essay indicates (though not quite explicitly) that some members of FG use harmful psychological tactics on misidentified enemies. However, the essay, in the same breath, makes it clear that such tactics are not shared by all, and in fact, damage “the reputations of innocent members who genuinely embrace ‘truth, compassion and forbearance”. Kavan also speaks about her receiving messages from the Falun Dafa Association, where “the author apologised for members harassing me”. Finally Kavan does not rule out the possibility that many of these harmful tactics may originate from Falun Gong impersonators, though Kavan seems dubious about this.
If Binksternet’s claim is true, then the Falun Dafa Association must either be rebelling against Li Hongzhi, or Li has no control over the Association. Both contradicts Binksternet’s claims.
Crucially, Kavan’s essay ends with the following final thoughts: “the irony of the conflict is that scholars and practitioners have much in common. Both engage in mental challenges that require intense focus—practitioners in meditation and scholars in academic discovery. Both seek knowledge—for practitioners, spiritual revelations, and for academics, nuggets of information. Most important, both aim to be loyal to their values regardless of political influences, with practitioners upholding their right to religious freedom and scholars upholding their right to academic freedom.”
Here is my concern about editors presenting a lot of sources, and representing them without care. A lot of this misinformation finds its way into wikipedia, simply because other editors do not have the time to verify such claims. HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 14:46, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Is there are reason why we still have massive block quotes on the page? The LA Magazine article that is excerpted at great length does not even appear to exist. TheBlueCanoe 13:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
ABC News (Australia) recently published an article on Falun Gong, Dragon Springs, and Falun Gong extensions like The Epoch Times:
A few quotes:
I've seen the comments from Li regarding aliens and 'race-mixing' come up quite a few times now, but it is nowhere in the article. The same goes for Shen Yun's attitude toward medicine. Given the state of the article until it received scrutiny a few months ago, this is hardly a surprise, but Li espousing alien plots and racism is deeply fringe stuff, and notable.
Further, on the closeness between Falun Gong media entities and Trump campaign figures:
A group of editors entrenched on this page regularly attempts to downplay anything and remove anything found on this article that does not adhere to Falun Gong's narrative about itself, including discussion of Dragon Springs. Sections regarding Falun Gong's approach to medicine, race, homosexuality, and aliens are also relevant and should be in the article. :bloodofox: ( talk) 17:22, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
@
Horse Eye Jack,
Bstephens393,
Bloodofox,
Cleopatran Apocalypse,
TheBlueCanoe, and
Binksternet: Due to the continual edit warring, I have full protected the article until you all can assure myself or another administrator that all of you will play nicely with one another. Until that time, all edits to the article need a clear consensus here on this talk page. Once that happens, please use {{
Edit fully protected}}
to ask an administrator to implement the change. Further, everyone pinged here is placed under a
0RR for this article and will be notified of this sanction on their talk pages. --
Guerillero |
Parlez Moi 19:34, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
@
Guerillero:Might I suggest restoring the 02:34, 29 June 2020 version per
WP:STATUSQUO?
Here is that version:
[5]
Here is the diff from the current version:
[6]
Anyone who was involved in the edit war and thinks that we just protected
the wrong version might want to consider whether the 02:34, 29 June 2020 version is better. --
Guy Macon (
talk) 00:38, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Apologies if I'm repeating myself a bit here, because the last time I started this thread it was derailed. Over the last two months or so, changes have been made to the lede section that either were not discussed, or which failed to achieve consensus on this page. In my last edit, as before, I've tried to retain some of the new information that was aded where it had merit, but keeping in mind the principles of WP:WEIGHT, WP:LEDE, and WP:NPOV. I'll explain the rationale here:
I was looking through old versions of the article, and other reports about Falun Gong, and found some sources that we could use. Binksternet ( talk) 20:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
We should also mention Samuel Luo, an ex-Falun Gong member who exposed a lot of the group's inner workings on a website some time around 2003 or 2004 (I'm guessing.) The Press Telegram says Luo was hounded by Falun Gong who tried to suppress his website. SFGate reported the same thing, as did the San Diego Union Tribune. He's also in the New Yorker piece that we already cite. Roman scholar Leonardo Sacco cites Samuel Luo in his scholarly article "Is Falun Gong a Sect or a Religious Movement? A Comparative Approach?" published in 2011. Samuel Luo is part of the Falun Gong story. Binksternet ( talk) 20:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
One of the most important and common methods that cults use to control their followers can be called "exclusion of the outside world." Cult members are taught not to trust people outside of the group, including family members. This component of mind control is definitely found in the Falun Gong teachings. Falun Gong practitioners are made to distrust the moral thinking of non-practitioners who are called "ordinary people". This is done intentionally by master Li, who repeatedly teaches: "As a practitioner you cannot act according to the ordinary people‘s standards."(15) This manipulation technique not only isolates practitioners from non-practitioners, including family members and friends, but also creates a system where practitioners only share information with other practitioners. As a result, practitioners mutually reinforce each other‘s belief in the teachings, thereby eliminating any conflicting or alternative views.
Patsy Rahn's paper [13] which we already cite compares Falun Gong to previous religious sectarian rebellions in China, the most recent being Yiguandao. We should tell the reader about the extensive experience of sectarian revolt in China, which was not always damaging to the government, but was viewed suspiciously because of the great damage possible. Successive governments quashed every sectarian rebellion except the one led by Zhu Yuanzhang who overthrew the government in 1368 and established the Ming dynasty with himself on the throne. The Yiguandao sect was suppressed by the Qing government, the Nationalist Kuomintang and the Chinese Communist Party. All of these Chinese governments agreed that a religious sect with millions of followers was a dangerous entity to allow within China. Something about this, explicitly naming Yiguandao, should be in the article. At the very least we should cite Rahn in the first paragraph of the section "Causes" which is looking for a citation. Binksternet ( talk) 19:41, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
In 2012, the Atlantic ran a piece about the stability (or not) of the Chinese government. [14] They said that the Chinese Communist Party's crackdown of Falun Gong seems "less surprising" after considering that the Qing Dynasty succumbed to internal pressure from anti-Manchu secret societies (also to foreign pressure), and the Kuomintang succumbed to a movement from inside China (also war with Japan). Which explains the harsh defensive measures taken by the CCP in 1999, who were trying to prevent another internal movement taking over the government. Binksternet ( talk) 06:10, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Junker is cited in the article but he wrote another piece which would be very useful: "The Transnational Flow of Tactical Dispositions" (2014). Junker compares Minyun and Falun Gong tactics in their two very different forms of protest against the Chinese government. Among the interesting observations delivered by Junker are that the two groups have some overlap in membership, that Falun Gong was aware of the failure of Minyun tactics, and that the Falun Gong movement is both religious and political in aim. Junker says that the Falun Gong's practice of "clarifying truth" to outsiders is for spreading the group's story of persecution, not for recruiting. Junker calls Li Hongzhi a faith healer in the early years of Falun Gong. In 2019, Junker published another comparison of Minyun and Falun Gong: "Comparing Falun Gong and Minyun as Movements". We should incorporate some of this material. Binksternet ( talk) 19:14, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Falun Gong and "Falung Gong media" again in the news, this time for more pro-Trump shadow groups and in Romania, as reported by Reuters:
Source:
At this point, "Falun Gong media" seems to be the better phrase than "extensions". :bloodofox: ( talk) 23:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
I have downgrade the protection to extended confirmed protection and downgraded the consensus required restriction to "All edits to the article need a clear consensus on this talk page for the change if challenged" after the past month of full protection. Please let me know if you have any questions -- Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Please, under the Dragon Springs compound in Deerpark, New York section, add a {{Main|Dragon Springs}}
template and on the sentence "Falun Gong operates out of Dragon Springs, a 400-acre compound located in Deerpark, New York." link to the page
Dragon Springs.
Hanif Al Husaini (
talk) 01:20, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Falun Gong has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under the section about media outlets controlled by Fulan Gong, a new media outlet known as China Uncensored is gaining popularity and it is controlled by the religious movement. [15] [16] 173.79.246.41 ( talk) 00:42, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
{{
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template. Thank you very much for your suggestion!
P.I. Ellsworth
ed.
put'r there 21:33, 4 September 2020 (UTC)It seems to me that there also should be space dedicated to the criticism of elements of Falun Gong, such as the cult-like environment, the cult of personality of Li Hongzhi, the opposition to homosexuality, the opposition to Western evidence-based science and medicine, all of which are not mentioned at all in the article. One thing that is mentioned, but briefly, is its involvement with far-right political groups and media Eccekevin ( talk) 00:07, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Is [ https://en.falundafa.org/ [ the official website of Falun Gong? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 13:11, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Moscow,-Falun-Gong-banned-for-'religious-extremism'-51568.html -- 178.142.100.45 ( talk) 09:50, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Writing back in 2018, academic James R. Lewis discusses something numerous editors on this page have also noted over the past several months: Falun Gong's continued and aggressive influence on Falun Gong-related English Wikipedia entries, and how "relevant Wikipedia entries turn out to be little more than mouthpieces for the FLG point of view" (p. 81).
The source:
Lewis highlights Falun Gong's extensive internet presence, and how editors who have to date contributed to English Wikipedia entries associated with Falun Gong to the point where "Falun Gong followers and/or sympathizers de fact control the relevant pages on Wikipedia" (p. 80), and how this is particularly important for Falun Gong as an organization due to the SEO results of these entries and how the entries can influence other media entities. Leiws notes also how this fits in as part of Falun Gong's general media strategy, such as Falun Gong media like The Epoch Times, New Tang Dynasty, Sound of Hope Radio, and, as Lewis discusses, the Rachlin media group. Lewis reports that the Rachlin media group is the Falun Gong's de facto PR firm operated by Gail Rachlin, spokesperson for the Falun Dafa Information Centre. (p. 80). Lewis also discusses how Amnesty International apparently does not independently verify its reports from Falun Gong groups, accepting material directly from Falun Gong organizations as fact (p. 80).
Here's a quote that sums it up:
- FLG has thus been able to influence other media via its presence on the web, through its direct press releases, and through its own media. (p. 80)
Currently any comment or discussion left on this talk page gets met with the same group of accounts, who produce talking points as if on cue and fight tooth and nail to maintain a status quo that reads like any Falun Gong-related press release. This is very much in line with what Lewis describes (my bolding):
- The Falun Gong organization has been most successful at promoting itself to the world outside of mainland China as a peaceful exercise group being unfairly targeted by the Chinese government. As we have seen, this is partly the result of denying or downplaying the aspects of Li Hongzhi's teachings that are vengeful, belligerent, or violent. However, it also the result of a conscious media strategy that involves, on the one hand, creating its own media outlets, and, on the other hand, taking advantage of anti-PRC sentiments in Western media. (p. 76)
The presence and activities of Falun Gong editors has plagued these articles for a long time-including now—and not only do we need coverage of this in the article, but we need an immediate crack down on accounts pushing Falun Gong talking points. Enough is enough: It's time to block the Falun Gong PR accounts and build a reliable, neutral article on Falun Gong and related topics. :bloodofox: ( talk) 01:04, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, he is apparently a scholar. However, his support of Aum Shinrikyo that organized the famous Tokyo subway sarin attack gives me a pause. According to this, for example, J. Gordon Melton, one of the NRM specialists involved, shortlyafterwards concluded that Aum had in fact been involved in the attack and other crimes. Lewis, however, ... went so far as to publish an article that suggested that the Aum affair was “Japan’s Waco,”... In suggesting that Aum had been framed, Lewis outlined his hypothesis that it “was being made to play the role of scapegoat for the incompetence of the authorities at the highest levels of the Japanese government.". Therefore, I would not recommend using his views for sourcing anywhere in WP.
Hey! Looking through the article, I've noticed that the article uses static form references rather than the more broadly used citation templates ({{ Cite web}} etc). Since the citations are there, this isn't exactly super critical, but it's a reasonable thing to look at working on to make sure this article is maintainable and the references keep consistent with the broader citation system on English Wikipedia. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 09:44, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
The title text of the image of “Tang Yongjie” cites no sources. In addition, the remainder of the “Conversion program” section relies heavily on one source, and the copy should make this more clear (Perhaps by adding “James Tong details...” to the second through fourth paragraphs.) Mouthpity ( talk) 01:40, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Based on this, [1]
References
In Deutschland existiert eine Vielzahl an alternativen Nachrichten-Plattformen von Rechtsaußen. Der Reuters Institute Digital News Report 2019 nennt Junge Freiheit, Compact online, PI News und Epoch Times als Plattformen mit der häufigsten Nutzung (Newman 2019: 86).[In Germany there is a large number of alternative news platforms from the far-right. The Reuters Institute Digital News Report 2019 names Junge Freiheit, Compact online, PI News and Epoch Times as the platforms with the most frequent use (Newman 2019: 86).]
it seems rather clear that Falun Gong is also a far-right political movement, as opposed to merely a new religious movement. I think the article should specify this, stating that Falun Gong is a new religious movement whose political wing advocates far-right politics and conspiracy theories. So far the article is heavily biased against the Communist Party of China, while giving insufficient weight to the government's side and that of other Falun Gong critics. CapeVerdeWave ( talk) 13:39, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
This article comes across as somewhat biased in favor of Falun Gong. There should be a section describing the controversies and/or criticism of the organization if Wikipedia is to stay neutral. 1.53.33.50 ( talk) 15:50, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I agree with OP. Recently looked into Chinese traditional medicines including Tai Chi, Qigong and later Falun Gong in particular for quite some time now. Realised Falun Gong isn't just harmless fitness activities. Its leader is quite literally being regarded by the group as the "only one" that can save mankind according to even the leader's own words on his Time interview. It operates like a cult. http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html
So the intro of the Wikipedia article is questionable as it claims that Falun Gong is being opposed merely on political grounds and gives the impression that it is harmless. However from what I read, that's not even close to the case at all. The leader had encouraged others to not take modern medicine and to take his words that literally evil space aliens gave mankind all our modern technology in order to corrupt our souls. And that race mixing is also evil as well as taking modern medicine or trusting technology. And to also never trust the advice of any scientists or the government or basically anyone but only the leader and the leader alone. (Last 5 paragraphs in http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html )You cannot make this up. People have died from following such advice. https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-abc-is-right-that-falun-gong-teachings-are-dangerous/12538058
It's some petty messed up teachings regardless if you agree it is a cult or not. To claim in intro that Falun Gong is banned in China only because of its popularity, seems like a really oversimplified western centric reasoning that leaves out the fact that Falun Gong teachings are indeed dangerous. And given how dangerous and extremist some of Li's teachings are, it's responsible for Wikipedia to add in a "Detailed and proper" section for the controversies and/or criticism of the organization. Ironically there seems to be alot of (criticism section) on Chinese traditional medicines articles yet there is none for this article. Casualfoodie ( talk) 13:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Casualfoodie ( talk) 13:39, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
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I do not know the terminology or Grammer I plan to use,but I wanted to in the section on the Communist crackdown on Fulan Gong amongst the things CP of PRC has called it "counter-revolutionary" and "reactionary". Just to give more depth to the political rhetoric. SouthernGentleman00 ( talk) 05:23, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
I find this article to be too lengthy for the little amount of concrete information it gives. Especially when explaining its religious views and practices, going very abstract without compromising with a definition. I don't see a need to erase these, but at the very least there could be a decent overview of its practices and what constitutes moral behavior and action. I understand it might be hard if no sources address it in clear-cut terms, having to rely on the sect's self-introduction which, according to the body of text itself, is purposefully fuzzy and has members skirt around definitions to protect the movement. 2804:7F0:3989:4E4F:81FD:697C:3B08:68F ( talk) 18:30, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the categorization explains why the group doesn't qualify as a sect under one definition but fails to do so for the accusation of it being a cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:D104:5A00:6829:F14E:9BDC:FD2B ( talk) 23:32, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
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Delete the sentence that says “These principles have been repeated by Falun Gong members to outsiders as a tactic for evading deeper inquiry, and followers have been instructed by Li to lie about the practice” and delete the accompanying footnote 36.
That sentence is false. Footnote 36 cites an article by Heather Kavan, which accuses Li Hongzhi of instructing followers to lie, but the lecture that her article cites and links to (Touring North America to Teach the Fa, 2002, https://falundafa.org/book/eng/na_lecture_tour.htm) contradicts her. The full paragraph in which Kavan claims Li instructed followers to lie reads as follows:
“What Dafa disciples are to do today is be responsible to Dafa. Don’t touch the things in everyday people’s society. When you clarify the truth don’t say high-level things; the main thing isn’t to have people understand what the high-level, profound Fa is. Well, people who are particularly good are an exception, and you can tell them about it. But when you clarify the truth to an average person, just tell him that we’re being persecuted and that we’re only doing exercises and trying to be good people, and they’ll be able to understand. After they learn about the truth, people will see all the propaganda for what it is, lies, and they’ll naturally see how despicable and evil it is. After people become aware they will be indignant: “How can a government act like a bunch of hoodlums? You’ve been persecuted so badly, and you’re persecuted just for trying to be good people.” Just use the simplest ideas when you talk to people. Not only will they be able to accept it and understand it, but they’ll also be less apt to misunderstand. You’ve cultivated for such a long time now, and your understanding of the Fa is quite deep. If you talk about your high-level understanding of the Fa, it will be hard for everyday people to understand, and it’s likely they will misunderstand; you have come to the high-level understanding you have today only after a long process of cultivation. You want people to immediately understand things at a level that high, but they won’t be able to, so don’t talk to them at too high a level. Even when you clarify the truth to religious people you shouldn’t talk at a high level. Just talk about the persecution we’ve suffered. If they don’t want to hear about other spiritual beliefs, we don’t talk to them about spiritual beliefs; tell them that we’re just doing exercises. It’s hard to save people nowadays. You have to explain things to them by following the logic of their attachments. For the sake of saving them, don’t create any obstacles for them.”
Nowhere in that passage did Li instruct followers to lie. Nor did he say anything close to that. Kavan quotes the "tell them we're just doing exercises" phrase out of context, by omitting the beginning of the sentence ("If they don't want to hear about other spiritual beliefs...") The gist of Li's comment would be more accurately characterized as “keep it simple,” which is not a dishonest sentiment. Kavan’s article misrepresented the source that she cited. Her misrepresentation should have no place in this Wikipedia article. JackUpdike ( talk) 05:26, 22 November 2021 (UTC) JackUpdike ( talk) 05:26, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 12:01, 22 November 2021 (UTC)in reality falun gong is cult. accept it or don't. In the "International Reception" section it doesn't mention the numerous sources proving that its a far right "hitlery" type movement making the creator of it look like a god. FizzoXD ( talk) 14:56, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Agree. This article (not sure if that's the correct term) has a clear bias towards Falun Gong, in my opinion. I feel like the "International Reception" section should have mentioned that many sources accept it is a cult, if not having separate cult accusations/controversy section. OffendedPerson ( talk) 02:45, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
I came here to say this, in the hopes that someone with more time and academic ability than me could fix it. Here's a decent source, for whoever feels up to it: https://www.abc.net.au/religion/the-abc-is-right-that-falun-gong-teachings-are-dangerous/12538058. There are of course many more out there, it doesn't take long to find them. At the very least there needs to be a "Controversies" section, and a more even-handed explanation as to why they might be opposed by the government. 2601:18E:C300:1190:A0F8:E706:91E4:3D49 ( talk) 04:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Currently this article suffers from out of date sourcing, dubious sources, and the impact of Falun Gong adherents editing and censoring the article for several years. The primary goal during this period appears to have been to present Falun Gong as a victim in need of support, while hiding the actual structure and reality—such as Falun Gong's compound and centralization around its founder—wherever possible. The article, as it exists, is an absolutely mess, and reads like a propaganda leaflet more than a true account of the Falun Gong's history and reality. :bloodofox: ( talk) 04:48, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
There is a place showing biased view when using the word "lie". Its highly subjective for a neutral report. Taken humanely, the word is even offensive. 14.232.89.200 ( talk) 14:45, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
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In the introductory five paragraphs, I recommend moving the 5th paragraph up to follow the first paragraph. In other words, instead of following the initial facts with three paragraphs of history and one paragraph of its current extensions, political involvement, and ideological messaging, move that last paragraph to become the second paragraph.
I am a journalist and hold a Ph.D. in English from UC Berkeley. Most Wikpedia users will seek information after contact with Falun Gong through one of its extensions or through The Epoch Times. They may never read on to the fifth paragraph but leave while wading through current paragraphs 2, 3, and 4. The information in the fifth paragraph is more pertinent to the average person's curiosity. If still interested, they can read the history and then read the entire Wikipedia entry.
I attended a demonstration on Feb. 27 to support Ukraine and oppose Putin's aggression. Falun Gong members were there promoting endccp.com with elegant, color brochures. I see The Epoch Times every time I enter a grocery store. People who want information about Falun Gong and rely on Wikipedia deserve more than this intro that, as you note, presents FG "in a positive rather than neutral manner." Anne Linstatter ( talk) 21:22, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:07, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
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After this sentence: "Falun Gong's cosmology includes the belief that different ethnicities each have a correspondence to their own heavens, and that individuals of mixed race lose some aspect of this connection.[43]"
Please include the following: They believe that mixed-race children cannot go to heaven without Li's personal intervention due to this.
Source: [18] 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 00:58, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
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In the final paragraph of the "Categorization" section, it is stated that 'according to Schechter, Falun Gong does not satisfy the definition of a "sect" or "cult."', but the following sentences only provide arguments on how it is not a sect. I propose either removing the 'or "cult"' part, adding arguments against that label, or just rewording the first sentence so the paragraph is focused on the "sect" aspect and let someone else write the "cult" part later (we should probably also define who Schechter is too), "Although it is commonly referred to a "sect" in journalistic literature, according to journalist/filmmaker/professor (whichever one works the best here) Danny Schechter, the Falun Gong does not satisfy the definition of that label.
Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aye-I-Eye ( talk • contribs) 20:01, March 23, 2022 (UTC)
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After this sentence: "Falun Gong's cosmology includes the belief that different ethnicities each have a correspondence to their own heavens, and that individuals of mixed race lose some aspect of this connection.[43]"
Please include the following: They believe that mixed-race children cannot go to heaven without Li's personal intervention due to this.
Source: [19] 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 21:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Los Angeles Magazine retracted the article cited at fn. 34, “Inside the Shadowy World of Shen Yun and Its Secret Pro-Trump Ties,” after it was sued for defamation because the article was false, and a federal judge entered an injunction prohibiting it from further publishing the article: https://mynewsla.com/crime/2020/07/20/judge-orders-los-angeles-magazine-to-remove-article-from-website/. See U.S. District Court for Central District of California, Case No. 2:20-cv-04680-GW-JEM, at Docket No 19 (LA Magazine stipulating that it would publish a retraction notice concerning the article) and Docket No. 20 (court order enjoining further publication of the article).
The article cannot be considered a reliable source. It is not even a published source anymore. All references to it, including the long block quote included with the second paragraph of the “Political Involvement” section, should be deleted ASAP. JackUpdike ( talk) 01:51, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
The categorization section has a sentence calling Freedom House an obscure think tank. As think tanks go it is one of the bigger ones and the sentence reads as just attacking the source for supporting Falun Gong.
Would recommend a change to something more NPOV 2A02:C7C:4E2C:1900:1891:B07F:A6CE:CEDA ( talk) 13:52, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
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“The practice initially enjoyed support from Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officials, but by the mid-to-late 1990s the government increasingly viewed Falun Gong as a potential threat due to its size, independence and spiritual teachings.” A comma should be added before “and”. Speatle ( talk to me) please ping me when replying to something I said. 16:06, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Delete the sentence that says “These principles have been repeated by Falun Gong members to outsiders as a tactic for evading deeper inquiry, and followers have been instructed by Li to lie about the practice,” and delete the accompanying footnote 36.
That sentence is false. Footnote 36 cites an article by Heather Kavan, which accuses Li Hongzhi of instructing followers to lie, but the lecture that her article cites and links to (Touring North America to Teach the Fa, 2002, https://falundafa.org/book/eng/na_lecture_tour.htm) contradicts Kavan. The full paragraph that Kavan quotes from reads as follows:
“What Dafa disciples are to do today is be responsible to Dafa. Don’t touch the things in everyday people’s society. When you clarify the truth don’t say high-level things; the main thing isn’t to have people understand what the high-level, profound Fa is. Well, people who are particularly good are an exception, and you can tell them about it. But when you clarify the truth to an average person, just tell him that we’re being persecuted and that we’re only doing exercises and trying to be good people, and they’ll be able to understand. After they learn about the truth, people will see all the propaganda for what it is, lies, and they’ll naturally see how despicable and evil it is. After people become aware they will be indignant: 'How can a government act like a bunch of hoodlums? You’ve been persecuted so badly, and you’re persecuted just for trying to be good people.' Just use the simplest ideas when you talk to people. Not only will they be able to accept it and understand it, but they’ll also be less apt to misunderstand. You’ve cultivated for such a long time now, and your understanding of the Fa is quite deep. If you talk about your high-level understanding of the Fa, it will be hard for everyday people to understand, and it’s likely they will misunderstand; you have come to the high-level understanding you have today only after a long process of cultivation. You want people to immediately understand things at a level that high, but they won’t be able to, so don’t talk to them at too high a level. Even when you clarify the truth to religious people you shouldn’t talk at a high level. Just talk about the persecution we’ve suffered. If they don’t want to hear about other spiritual beliefs, we don’t talk to them about spiritual beliefs; tell them that we’re just doing exercises. It’s hard to save people nowadays. You have to explain things to them by following the logic of their attachments. For the sake of saving them, don’t create any obstacles for them.”
Nowhere in that passage did Li instruct followers to lie. Nor did he say anything close to that. The gist of his comment would be more accurately characterized as “keep it simple,” which is hardly a dishonest sentiment. Kavan’s article grossly misrepresented Falun Gong teachings, and the source that she cited does not support her assertion at all. It is very unfair and misleading to include that false statement at the beginning of a section purporting to describe Falun Gong’s “central teachings.” JackUpdike ( talk) 03:47, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
[Report] of a statement by someone that seems out of character or against an interest they had previously defended—Falun Gong explicitly lists "truthfulness" as a principle. Since it concerns Li, who is a living person, it may be wise to err on the side of caution unless the claim is corroborated by other sources. Ipnsaepl28 ( talk) 15:21, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
This contested statement is currently in a very prominent position—right in the middle of a paragraph introducing Falun Gong's core beliefs. This seems to be problematic because (1) it breaks the flow of the paragraph and is followed by more description of the group's core beliefs that proceeds as though the intervening sentence didn't exist and (2) it is undue to give the statement such a prominent position when it is a claim or accusation made by two scholars rather than a broad consensus among reliable sources.
I believe this should be moved to the reception section. Per WP:CRIT, it is appropriate to use a reception/criticism section instead of interleaving criticisms in the rest of the article for articles about religions or viewpoints. Ipnsaepl28 ( talk) 02:01, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
define the topic, per due weight and other guidelines. Two scholars is not a lot, so the statement does not deserve to be placed right in the middle of the paragraph describing the Falun Gong's core teachings in a way that completely disrupts the flow of the paragraph. If the vast majority of scholars concluded the Falun Gong's practitioners were by and large mendacious, and were doing so at the behest of its founder, then it would be justified to put such a statement in a prominent position, but such a consensus among sources simply doesn't exist. Ipnsaepl28 ( talk) 03:57, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. In fact, I agreed with you that Kavan is a topic expert, and from the beginning of this conversation, my position has been based on the assumption that this is not fringe. Ipnsaepl28 ( talk) 17:34, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
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Falun Gong has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
After this sentence: "Falun Gong's cosmology includes the belief that different ethnicities each have a correspondence to their own heavens, and that individuals of mixed race lose some aspect of this connection.[43]"
Please include the following: They believe that mixed-race children cannot go to heaven without Li's personal intervention due to this.
Source: [22] 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 13:26, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
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template. You have requested this a number of times, and none of the nearly 1000 page watchers have implemented it. I suggest you try to convince people to include this, rather than opening a request every month or two.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 13:45, 10 July 2022 (UTC)Multiple testimonies by former FLG practitioners have either directly called the Falun Gong a cult or gave accounts that described Falun Gong to have cultic characteristics. A New York Times piece has described Shen Yun performances to also contain cultic characteristics. There are a wealth of opinion pieces on YouTube that describe the FLG as opinions, including ones from reputable sources critical of China. Therefore, acknowledging that parts of this article do deal with the characterization of FLG as a cult, I propose that the first sentence of the article be nevertheless changed to "Falun Gong has been variously described as a cult or a new religious movement" instead of "Falun Gong is a new religious movement" for NPOV and accuracy. Thank you. Cycw ( talk) 18:03, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
EDIT: Further sources. ABC opinion article on ex-Falun Gong practitioners (doesn't call FLG a cult), and that article writer's personal experience with Falun Gong, which does not call Falun Gong a cult but does state 'secretive' and 'controlling' aspects. An additional ABC article, detailing negative experiences in Falun Gong.
TypistMonkey ( talk) 05:51, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
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Please add Lewiston, New York: Edwin Mellen Press links to the notes/bibliography. Thanks Doodyalley ( talk) 14:15, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
"..the cycle of reincarnation, know in Buddhist tradition as samsara"
This is false. The Buddha did not teach reincarnation. Do not confuse this word with rebirth, which refers to something else. Different branches may have had disagreements on what part is being reborn, but, even then, why present something on Wikipedia as true when it is argued over. Even the article on Rebirth on this very website disagrees.
"Falun Gong differentiates itself from Buddhist monastic traditions in that it places great importance on participation in the secular world..."
There isn't a part of what the Buddha taught that is not secular.
The quote continues: "...Falun Gong practitioners are required to maintain regular jobs and family lives, to observe the laws of their respective governments, and are instructed not to distance themselves from society. An exception is made for Buddhist monks and nuns, who are permitted to continue a monastic lifestyle while practicing Falun Gong."
This does not "differentiate" itself from Buddhism. The Buddha taught for everyone, especially including the ordinary; or, people who maintain regular jobs and family lives. As much talk there is about the metaphysical side, many of his teachings were about family and society. It isn't hard to find this out. He did not say to "distance yourself" from society, he said very much the opposite. His teachings were meant to build societies.
There are many other references to how Falun Gong is similar to Buddhism, comparing its systems of meditation and practice, but then describing a different practice. This is fine because it's talking about Falun Gong, but it's very easy to assume that it's the case for Buddhist/Daoist as well because of its wording when it is not necessarily so, which falls under this theme of misinformation. If one of the goals is to deliver truth, fuzziness about what is what should be avoided.
Important example: "Central teachings" part talks about Karma, but it is a very different form from Falun Gong, then at the end technically claims it about Buddhism, but it is subtle wording: "...let go of 'attachments and desires' and suffer to repay karma. The ultimate goal of the practice is enlightenment or spiritual perfection (yuanman), and release from the cycle of reincarnation, known in Buddhist tradition as samsara"
Logically: "letting go of..." is "the practice". The goal of "the practice" is "known in Buddhism is called samsara", therefore Buddhist samsara derives from the practice of something from Falun Gong's karma. It doesn't directly say that the karma is the same, but it's very easy to confuse this when reading this. Buddhist Karma is not just only positive or negative, it literally translates to "action"; it's the nature of cause and effect by humans.
These aren't just my random opinions about it, either, you can easily find many things that claim opposite of these quotes. But, you don't have to, because no sources for any of these were provided in the first place. It may have had a source at the end of the sentence, but it would link to some unrelated website about Falun Gong: [67] Penny "The Religion of Falun Gong", [76] Porter "Falun Gong in the United States: An Ethnographic Study", .
These quotes should all be removed except the first part of the last. There isn't a good replacement for them.
It may not seem like these falsities about Buddhism aren't that important, that it doesn't matter, or it doesn't have an important effect, which would probably come from not seeing the big picture and purpose of each of these aspects of Buddhism, but they are spreading lies that disagree with the fundamental teachings of Buddhism. From the ones above (rebirth, secular, society), if you're curious, for being secular (or, being neutral, at least) the Buddha did not teach deities/images/idols/God because it disagrees with impermanence; they are permanent and powerful, except the world is changing: Buddha taught no such thing of permanence exists; they are idols to latch on to for comfort, all like self.
I've looked at other pages about Buddhism on Wikipedia, and there are a lot of problems, but I can't go through each on my own. This will probably be my only suggested edit, but just know there's a big problem with this here, and this is with basic facts about Buddhism, not even something that requires any devoted research to learn. Branboyer ( talk) 18:25, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
I don’t understand how an organization can be categorized as completely decentralized, while describing just how much absolute power and say the leader has on the organization. Even if their stated form of organization is one of decentralization, this shouldn’t just be taken at face value. 47.229.173.53 ( talk) 14:01, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
Falun gong is described as a "new religion". I believe it should be described as " cultivation practice". 2603:7081:3703:369C:2D91:E26F:BF0C:378B ( talk) 10:12, 26 October 2022 (UTC)