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I recently got myself into hot water on this topic after clicking through my watchlist and seeing the current second paragraph being warred about. I fell down a rabbit hole, because it all seemed so strange (not merely the content itself, but the behavior around it). There is simply no doubt that this group's multiple media properties and performing arts companies as well as its views on sexuality and sexual identity are content suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. What I found so strange was the way it was insisted this content be included. The second paragraph is a case in point: at least two parts of it are not even accurate 1. (that FLG "administers" the media properties - that's not what the source says; my current read is that the relationship between FLG [and even what organizational form FLG takes] and these media seems rather more complex), and that 2. Shen Yun contains anti-LBGTQ messages. This is not in the New Yorker article. It says in passing that "apart from the... homophobia," but doesn't actually say where or whether there was homophobia in Shen Yun. This is presumably an error of the source. But even so. Why do not we also include what else she noted in passing, such as Shen Yun's extraordinary use of a gigantic face of Karl Marx in front of a red tide (presumably of blood!) Falun Gong's anti-communist rhetoric appears far more prominent than its opinions about homosexuality, which when I read their press office now they seem not particularly strident about: https://faluninfo.net/misconceptions-intolerant/ (do they lie because they know that discrimination against homosexuality is not tolerated in the West? I am curious to look at some ethnographies). In any case, I found the Karl Marx face just as, if not more striking. So why don't we put that in the second paragraph as well?
Or alternatively, why doesn't the page have a proper discussion of FLG-associated media entities, which includes an accurate representation of the precise nature of the relationship between FLG and the entities, and the other commercial and cultural initiatives?
I would suggest the discussion of these matters largely mirror how other religions are discussed on Wikipedia. I presume that the page on Catholicism notes that Catholics run newspapers and media companies (I can think of some, including some which have garnered controversy), the page on Islam notes that Muslims run newspapers (many I could also think of, several quite controversial) and so on. How are these relationships described? I suspect that Falun Gong-associated media entities are relatively more significant for Falun Gong, which is a new... religion... and they serve a function vis-a-vis the Chinese state actions against Falun Gong adherents in China - but I think that would make sense for the general approach. Without any benchmark for the appropriate way for a tertiary source to discuss something like this, what tethers the dispute? Indeed, why not make it the lead, and include Marx, anti-gay, anti-evolution, and every other thing we don't like that is associated with this group? There is a reason for it, and that reason relates to what encyclopedias are for and how they are supposed to read.
In the meantime, the second paragraph as it stands now is an embarrassment. It should just be removed. Put in some placeholder text about FLG adherents founding media and performing arts companies to spread their message, or whatever it may be. There's a way to write about this without either doing propaganda for or against the group, which is the entire point. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 13:50, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Let's tone down the rhetoric, shall we? I would like you to address the questions that I raised. These are all reasonable objections, which you have not addressed.
We can presumably agree, per WP:LEAD, that the lead section should summarize, from a neutral point of view, what the major features of a topic are, and that it should present facts in a manner that is intelligible and with appropriate relative emphasis or WP:WEIGHT. We determine that by surveying the best sources available to use, which in this case would include the books that have been written about Falun Gong, as well other sources such as human rights groups, think tanks, and news agencies. Do you agree? If so, and setting aside even the question of factual accuracy and neutrality, your edit clearly fails to adhere to these requirements. I'll give an example. The topic of organ harvesting from Falun Gong adherents has received substantial, renewed media attention in the last two or three years. Last year an expert tribunal, headed by a famed international jurist, found the Chinese party-state has sanctioned the large-scale killing of Falun Gong adherents for their organs. There are at least three books that deal extensively with this issue, along with several academic journal articles. In short, thousands of pages of reliably sourced material has been written about the issue of organ harvesting from Falun Gong adherents. By contrast, less than one full sentence has been written in a reliable source about Shen Yun's alleged anti-LGBQT messaging (whether the "homophobia" in question was even properly credited to Shen Yun is, as I said, unclear). And yet you have given this more prominence in this article than thousands upon thousands of pages written about organ harvesting. You have edit warred to enforce your position, over the justified objections of other editors. This is just such bizarre behaviour. TheBlueCanoe 18:52, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous, please stop trying to use wikipedia to push the agenda/view of your organization. WP:NOTHERE conduct like this will not be tolerated much longer. Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 18:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Eh, just coming back to this. So what is the actual reason for the second paragraph, as it stands now? It's still not clear to me. It seems clear that these forms of activism are an important part of the Falun Gong experience, but the inclusion of the anti-evolution thing here is bizarre (not only the content), and it's still not clear why it's all meant to go in the lead?? Why not say that Cate Blanchette watched the performance (just to pick a random pro-Falun talking point for argument's sake)? What is the point of all this?
I think an important question is whether or not the media and other organizations are actually administered centrally by the Falun Gong. From what I can tell so far, technically there is no such thing as a central Falun Gong organization, but I'm happy to be corrected. This would make relationship between these entities and this page a bit more complex.
I am getting quite curious about all this. For the editors who have more experience on the topic, apart from the fairly sensational media articles that keep getting quoted, what should I read and what scholars should I look at? I have done some drive-by stuff on this page from time to time, and my main interests lie elsewhere, but the acrimony has piqued my interest. It obviously does not seem a matter of reliable sources alone? Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 15:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Falun Gong has moralistic, socially conservative beliefs, preaching against homosexuality and sex out of wedlock.
— The Guardian
Among them, Li has railed against what he called the wickedness of homosexuality, feminism and popular music while holding that he is a god-like figure who can levitate and walk through walls. [...] Hurley, who wrote for The Epoch Times until he left in 2013, said he saw practitioners in leadership positions begin drawing harder and harder lines about acceptable political positions.
“Their views were always anti-abortion and homophobic, but there was more room for disagreements in the early days,” he said.
— NBC News
— MarkH21 talk 15:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)Ma, who faced intense pressure from the city's Chinese community not to vote for the resolution, also came under attack because of Falun Gong's antigay teachings
— Bay Area Reporter
@ Horse Eye Jack: [ Your edit] canceled a lot well sourced materials without a reasonable explanation, I have the following questions for you:
With respect to WP:BURDEN, a reminder that the lede section was very stable for years. It was substantially altered by Bloodofox beginning a few weeks ago. Legitimate concerns were raised regarding Bloodofox's edits with respect to WP:LEAD, WP:V, and WP:NPOV, including WP:WEIGHT. These concerns have been repeatedly raised, and never addressed. Instead, users have edit warred to enforce their preferred version, and repeatedly accused other editors of acting in bad faith. This is not a platform for activism, and it is not a battleground. The recent additions, which you folks appear to have been warring over, has the same problems as Bloodofox's earlier, contested additions, and I have reverted. TheBlueCanoe 21:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Let me say again that the 6 sources User:Bloodofox provided do not support the contents being added in. User:Bloodofox also deleted a lot of reliable sources that are not serving an activist’s narrative. I am listing them below:There are no shortage of sources on these topics. A handful of them are plastered all over this talk page. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
There seems to be a typo causing citation text to show up in the main article. In the Persecution section, Causes subsection, paragraph 3, there is nonsense at the end ",.ref name="ReidG">Reid, Graham (29 April–5 May 2006) "Nothing left to lose" Archived 30 September 2007 at the Wayback Machine, New Zealand Listener. Retrieved 6 July 2006.</ref>". I would fix it myself, but I don't have edit permissions. Astropiloto ( talk) 20:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
In the lead, The Epoch Times is described as promoting extreme-right politics. There are 3 sources provided: NYT, New Republic, and NBC. I checked these 3 articles one by one and found that both NYT and NBC mentioned "right-wing", only New Republic mentioned ET has in common with "extreme right-wing". I feel it is not a good idea to mislead that NYT and NBC associated the ET with extreme-right, so we should make it clear. The notability of New Republic is not as good as NYT and NBC, I suggest we move this reference to somewhere in the body. Precious Stone 14:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Due to ongoing edit warring, I full protected this page. -- Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I think this would help deal with the issues and bring in editors who haven't been involved with the article, but I don't have time to do it. It needs to be done in strict accordance with WP:RfC. Doug Weller talk 08:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
As far as I noticed, historically speaking, activists often came to do things forbidden in WP:SOAP. As WP:ARBFLG shows, 2 of them were indefinitely banned for this topic. Years back, another 2 anti FLG activist users I encountered were also banned for the topic. Activists can be easily identified, as they tend to add WP:OR contents or CCP related unreliable sources. They are not necessarily CCP followers though. BTW, users who try to prevent activism shouldn’t be called “disrupting” wiki pages, nor should they be labelled as FG followers or COI in an attempt to discredit them.
- Preventing vandalism by some activists on controversial topics, spent many of my edits. While other pages are not as controversial as these, there is no need for much talk or changes. The key for identifying activist is as WP:SOAP mentioned
I did not advocate my own opinions in the articles, but have rather accurately represented what reliable sources say which was not “deflected criticisms” of Falun Gong.“content hosted in Wikipedia is not for: Advocacy, propaganda. …You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your opinions.“
- I have confidence my edits were made while sticking to Wiki rules and under good faith. Again, I have never been and am not paid by anyone to make edits in Wikipedia.
I revisit this page after years to find it's like being in a time warp. The SPAs are still there pushing their propaganda, and fighting even the smallest attempts to steer the article away from their orthodoxy. Plus ça change. -- Ohc ¡digame! 15:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Seeing today's set of reversions and in an attempt to keep the article from descending into another bout of edit warring, I am imposing a 1 Revert Rule on the article as an Arbitration Enforcement action. -- Guerillero | Parlez Moi 16:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
In the current set of edits that were just made (and reverted) and in the ongoing discussions above, there are multiple open 'lines' of discussion and disagreement. I suggest that these been broken up and discussed separately, in multiple threads simultaneously. For example, one section could be about the lead. Discuss only what should be in the lead paragraph on the FLG's* involvement in media etc. Another section is about the section in the article where these issues are hashed out. And when editing, I suggest NUMBER YOUR EDITS and write a corresponding number on the page, so //that actual edit// can be discussed. It is completely unproductive and pointless to do reverts which are going to include like 20 contentious things. Break each of the contentious things up into 20 (or whatever) separate disputes, and hammer each one out, in the section which it corresponds to.
For example, maybe someone objects to the block excerpt from NBC because it's simply a WP:DUE issue; or objects to the point about the precise financial relationship between "Falun Gong" and those media companies being unclear (when, according to these scholarly works, it's actually quite clear); or objects to whatever else. Edit it as you see appropriate (delete, refactor, find a better source), NUMBER IT, start a discussion ABOUT THAT EDIT. Then the editing and discussion can be dynamic, multi-threaded, and consensus reached on each point of dispute separately.
I don't know if this is standard practice, and if anyone has a better idea, please suggest it, but that is how I propose we proceed. Please let me know if this suggestion is not clear.
*well, the article is not going to put it vaguely like that: "the FLG" is a shorthand we use. In most cases we would specify if it's "the teachings of FLG," or "people who practice FLG," or "an organization founded and primarily staffed by people who practice FLG," or whatever it may be. This is not a single organizational structure, but a practice spread across the world, where the individuals who practice it do things in order to gain social recognition (and in their religious goals, "saving people," if I have the terminology correct.) And yes, I have been reading David Ownby's book and three dissertations by anthropologists which we should be citing. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 15:24, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
I have been following this topic for awhile. My interest in this wiki page was piqued after reading the recent NBC piece accusing EpochTimes of "racism" and propagating conspiracy theory that the Chinese Communist Party manufactured COVID. NBC subsequently amended parts of this article and its title. For good reason--its piece on youtube garnered 3000 downvotes and 265 upvotes, a staggering 91.9% disapproval rating.
I am curious and would genuinely like to understand how and why this page is being thus organized. We know that this group has been on the receiving end of abject human rights atrocity in China. We know that this group has been subject to forced organ harvesting, which in the decision of the China Tribunal on Forced Organ Harvesting, has been taking place against a large number of member of this group for a substantial period of time. There is an article that described the cold genocide of Falun Gong.
I would genuinely like to know why, despite all these humanitarian crises, this wiki page decides to confer the top priority, and place the spotlight, on a quote from a report by a Los Angeles magazine describing Falun Gong as a conspiracy theorist cult obsessed with aliens, and on where some of their members live, how they have arranged relationships, and their zoning disputes.
Some of these assertions may well be true. But it confounds me they were given such preeminence, over and above an objective and partial account of this movement, its central teachings and belief system, its exercises, and its experience of abject human rights abuse. It reminds me of what happened during the era of Nazi Germany, whose press is obsessed with the Jewish conspiracy, such as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", when its people are being culled in the millions.
It may be a truism to say that the representation of a topic must inevitably adopt a narrative, and different narrative forms, in turn, will produce different responses to the social practices involved in genocide: empathy and ownership, or revulsion, alienation, and dehumanization (Daniel Feierstein). The narrative I see that is being propagated now on this page, is a narrative of conspiracy and political radicalism, calculated to invoke revulsion and dehumanization against the victims of genocide.
The accuracy of these assertions of political radicalism, and conspiracy theories aside (I look forward to discuss this at another time), I'm all but certain that the current portrayal violates the standards on "article structure", "due and undue weight" and "balancing", by giving priority to a fringe aspect of this movement, over its central elements and experience.
Ultimately, I think it is an issue of basic human decency. I may stand corrected, but it seems to me that the forced organ harvesting on 5-6 figure scale is probably more important than a zoning dispute that some of these members have with their neighbours.
I am genuinely, and honestly curious about others think. Am I really alone or wrong in thinking this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HollerithPunchCard ( talk • contribs) — HollerithPunchCard ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Presumably Falun Gong/Dafa has some main corporation/association/charity (in USA)? Probably we should include official info on that "main" corporation, give it considerable weight (if it exists), and also find which other organizations are associated with Falun Dafa. Notrium ( talk) 03:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
The Junker source identifies the site at Dragon Springs as operating as a registered charity (presumably a 501(c)c?). If I understand correctly, that is not inconsistent with the claim that it's registered as a "church" or religious organization as well. There are also "Falun Dafa Associations" registered in probably dozens of international jurisdictions, so this isn't new. One question, however, is whether it makes sense to say that "Falun Gong" operates out of Deep Park, and this goes to the question of what Falun Gong means in this context. Is it a body of moral teachings and physical movements? If so, it is not "based" out of a geographical location. Is it a community of believer? The community is globally dispersed, there are legally registered Falun Dafa charities and not-for-profits in numerous jurisdictions, and most of it followers are in Mainland China. So the claim in the lede that Falun Gong is "based" out of Deer Park doesn't make sense. TheBlueCanoe 22:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Currently the "history" section discusses persecution by the Chinese government, only for it to simply drop off when the move to the United States—specifically to Dragon Springs—occurs in the early 2000s. While this once again emphasizes a variety of claims of persecution, this is not where the new religious movement's history ends, and it needs to pick up from there to discuss things like the new religious movement's move to its Dragon Springs headquarters in Deerpark, New York, as well as its political turn at around 2015-2016. There's about 20 years missing from the history section. :bloodofox: ( talk) 23:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
With all due respect, if there is an argument, make it. Bald and loaded assertions of disruption and whitewashing are not constructive HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 15:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Given the intense interest in questions of categorization, what do editors think of having a sub-section, in the area dealing with the anti-Falun Gong campaign, about the thinking around whether the Chinese government's actions against the Falun Gong should be considered a genocide?
Some of the relevant references on this issue might include:
It's also noted in Dictionary of Genocide (ABC-CLIO, 30 Nov 2007) by Paul R. Bartrop and Samuel Totten (a giant in the genocide studies field).
Note that the China Tribunal judgement, which makes extensive discussion of the genocide question, was rendered by a former war crimes prosecutor who prosecuted Slobodan Milošević. I can pull out some quotes from the above sources if that is helpful. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 08:25, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
HollerithPunchCard ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) made the following claim:
There is an (obviously unreliable) Falun Gong source that makes the same claim: [ https://faluninfo.net/forced-organ-harvesting-in-china-falun-gong/ ]
And it has made it into these Wikipedia articles:
There are some obvious problems with these claims, such as using [ http://organharvestinvestigation.net/] and The Weekly Standard as sources, but is there any credible evidence that these accusations against the Chinese government are true? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 11:14, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Organ harvesting:
Currently the article goes to some length to claim that the Falun Gong is "decentralized", often backed by non- WP:RS sources like falundafa.org, and says that the Chinese government claims otherwise. This is obviously dubious, particularly given the structure of the organization in 2020, and its coordinated political involvement with outreach efforts like The Epoch Times, propaganda arms like Shen Yun, and schools at the Dragon Springs compound. This section needs to be totally rewritten from more recent reliable sources. :bloodofox: ( talk) 23:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I think Binksternet is getting somewhere. However, assuming that the Falun Gong membership follows absolutely Li Hongzhi's words, this is a necessary, but not sufficient condition to make the claim of centralization. Centralization presupposes structure. It requires not just a locus of thought, but also a concentration of initiative, power and function. It is a basic presupposition of most, if not all religion, that the authority and validity of the founder's teachings/instructions are unconditional and self-evident within the sphere of that religion. Unconditional adherence is not, in and of itself, equivalent to centralization. HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 15:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Currently, the first section of this article following the lede is titled "Shen Yun, The Epoch Times, and political involvement.” It includes long excerpts of exclusively critical/one-sided news reporting on these two entities, with a fair bit of loaded language thrown in for good measure.
Editors defending this section have argue that the material is “well sourced,” and therefore should not be removed. Alas, WP:RS is not the only content policy on this encyclopedia. If it were, the encyclopedia would become a massive garbage heap of disjointed facts and statements. We are editors: our job is to curate, to select, to summarize, and to present information in a manner that is narratively coherent, digestible, and that represents a neutral point of view.
To that end, even if this entire section passes WP:RS (and it might not; I’ll leave that open for now), it most definitely fails to adhere to other content policies, notably WP:NPOV, WP:DUE. Here’s a non-exhaustive explanation of why:
I'll note that the addition of this material never gained consensus on the talk page. Editors have simply edit warred to keep it in, in various incarnations. The WP:BURDEN now rests with them to explain why it should be kept in this form. TheBlueCanoe 20:16, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm noting that Bloodofox has not responded to the objections raised above, but has instead a) doubled down on casting aspersions against other editors; and b) continued to perpetuate the same problems noted above by adding another lengthy, [16] out-of-order section at the top of the article body that gives undue prominence to the location of FLG's U.S. based of operations. Again, no problem including something about this in the article, but this presentation fails WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT again. I am going to condense both these sections and move to the relevant parts of the article. If Bloodofox wants to revert, I hope to see convincing responses to the above. TheBlueCanoe 23:52, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
I made a comment earlier today and realized that it might fit better in this discussion. I also realized that I'm not alone in my concern about prioritizing a number of block quotes portraying the fringe aspects of the movement (obsession of aliens, arranged relationships, zoning disputes) over the main introduction of the movement, such its central beliefs, teachings, practice, exercises, and its experience of human rights persecution. Assuming that these fringe aspects are true, they should be relegated to one of the back section, in a manner commensurate to their degree of importance in relation to the overall movement.
Honestly, I am quite surprised that there is this much controversy over a straightforward religious group that is persecuted in China. It is almost like human rights and lives do not matter (at least not as much as whether these people have arranged relationships, whether they were informed that their visas expired, whether they have zoning disputes, and whether they believe in the existence of aliens). — Preceding unsigned comment added by HollerithPunchCard ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)— HollerithPunchCard ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I don't know or care the history of the editors involved in this discussion, my interest is in addressing the issues being discussed in line with Wikipedia's policies. While certain aspects of individual editors' edit histories could be concerning, that is not an argument to ignore valid points they're making. In particular, I don't see anyone in this current discussion advocating for "scrubbing" this article to push a viewpoint that doesn't belong, because at face value, the point is valid. As far as there are "sides" to the controversies in this article, this discussion makes it clear to me that if ideological editing is happening, it's likely not happening just from one side. This is why wikipedia has policies, let's please stick to those. Arathald ( talk) 20:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Without dwelling deeper at this time, it seems disingenuous to me that one camp (yes this are clearly camps here) would purport to champion free speech, and condemn censorship, and yet in the same vein call for wholesale topic banning against the alternative voice. One would think that censoring an expression, is lesser evil yet than taking the voice away from a person altogether. It seems that the interest here is less the merits of the subject matter, than victory by any means necessary, at all costs--please correct me if I'm wrong. Feel free to disagree, but I personally find this attitude morally reprehensible.
We are dealing with a unique subject matter here (although such uniqueness certainly does not exempt this topic from the standards of objectivity and truth, in fact, the converse is true). Discussions of a group's practice and belief is not the same as the description of, say, a lawn mower. Elementary principles of mutual respect, religious freedom and respect for diversity, means that insider perspectives should, at least, be accorded a minimum standard of respect, and allowed a reasonable degree of representation. In fact, contemporary social research has held that differences should not only be recognized--"insider expertise" should be privileged. As such, LGTBQ people are understood as having certain special knowledge or authority on queer issues, women on gender issues, racial and ethnic minorities on race issues, etc.
What I have observed so far on this page is quite the opposite. Internal perspectives on FG are being driven out, precisely on the basis that they are held by the FG community itself. Editors are being witch hunted, and scrutinized, not for the merits of their contributions, but for any possible or suspected association with FG. It is almost as if this community does not get to speak about their own beliefs and community. I find this contrived effort to marginalize the FG community on this page downright reprehensible. If you are to replace all mentions of "Falun Gong" on this page with say, "Jew" or "Islam", the average bystander would find the discussions on this page a shining example of antisemitism and islamophobia.
In a way, I'm not surprised. Since long, I have been trying to figure out why is no one speaking out on the gross human rights violations taking place against FG in China, including forced organ harvesting, despite the sheer gravity of the matter. I think I found my answer on this page. HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 00:58, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Never have I seen a wiki page fraught with such heated controversyYou've almost no experience with the site, then.
such inflammatory and toxic attacks hurled against one anotherPlease point to an example of a personal attack instead of making unevidenced accusations (which is a type of personal attack).
it seems disingenuous to me that one camp (yes this are clearly camps here) would purport to champion free speech, and condemn censorship, and yet in the same vein call for wholesale topic banning against the alternative voiceIt seems even more disingenous to lie about what one group of editors is saying. Some users have only called for topic bans of notably disruptive users who are removing any voice other that FG's -- it is hypocrisy for you to to not condemn pro-FG censorship in the same breath you accuse us of censorship with.
"insider expertise" should be privileged-- which is why we favor academic and journalistic sources that worked with the LGTBQ community over those that have not, and why we cite academic and journalistic sources that have actually studied FG over those going off of hearsay. The problem here is that some FG members don't like the conclusions drawn by those academic or journalistic sources because it doesn't fit with the narrative put out by Li Hongzhi.
Internal perspectives on FG are being driven out, precisely on the basis that they are held by the FG community itself.This false accusation is the sort of personal attack you accuse others of making.
Since long, I have been trying to figure out why is no one speaking out on the gross human rights violations taking place against FG in China, including forced organ harvesting, despite the sheer gravity of the matter.And now we know you haven't even read the article at all. No one is contesting the material in there, which rather disproves your accusation that the NPOV editors here are 'anti-FG'.
I am amazed at the kind of cognitive dissonance that someone has to contend with to churn out the kind of response given above. Throughout my contributions on this page, I have made every effort not to name names, and indeed, I have not named anyone in my comments. Most if not all of my comments are framed as general, impersonal observations. Yet, there are person(s) who immediately and spontaneously identify themselves with my observations. It is *almost* as if such persons are aware that they fit the descriptions I made.
Those who have seen my earlier comments would know that my concern surrounding the important human rights issues experienced by this group is not that they were not incorporated in the article, which is clearly a straw man. Rather, the concern was that they were not given due weight, as at one point, the article began with discussions of some New York compound, some zoning disputes, arranged relationships, issues about not being informed of Visa status, and discussions of belief in aliens--matters that appears absolutely peripheral to the central beliefs and experience of this movement.
Within a single response, I have been accused by this kind user of (i) cluttering the page with emotional propaganda, (ii) making false personal attacks, (iii) being disingenuous, (iv) lying and (v) being hypocritical. It is *almost* as if my observations about toxicity and bad faith on this page are true. HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 14:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
In or around the Dragon Springs compound exists at least two schools: Fei Tian College in Middletown and Fei Tian Academy of the Arts. Remarkably, the article makes no mention of either of these private schools. With very few exceptions, private schools that hold religious affiliation in the United States are either Christian or Jewish, and very rarely maintain association with new religious groups, which makes the existence of these schools notable and remarkable.
As sources that mention it note, the Dragon Springs compound is notoriously secretive, but it is obviously the new religious movement's headquarters in the US, as well as some of its extensions, like Shen Yun. Fei Tian Academy of the Arts has received less media coverage, but there are mentions of it more broadly.
Here's a report on the school from 2017 to start with, but there are various other mentions of it, and Fei Tian College seems to hold CHEA accreditation via the New York State Board of Regents ( see also NYcollegesorg), but I can't find any information from the U.S. Department of Education on its status otherwise. The college also has a Twitter account. One of its two posts is an Epoch Times promotional piece, of course. I'll build a section on the topic and add it. :bloodofox: ( talk) 00:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | → | Archive 47 |
I recently got myself into hot water on this topic after clicking through my watchlist and seeing the current second paragraph being warred about. I fell down a rabbit hole, because it all seemed so strange (not merely the content itself, but the behavior around it). There is simply no doubt that this group's multiple media properties and performing arts companies as well as its views on sexuality and sexual identity are content suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. What I found so strange was the way it was insisted this content be included. The second paragraph is a case in point: at least two parts of it are not even accurate 1. (that FLG "administers" the media properties - that's not what the source says; my current read is that the relationship between FLG [and even what organizational form FLG takes] and these media seems rather more complex), and that 2. Shen Yun contains anti-LBGTQ messages. This is not in the New Yorker article. It says in passing that "apart from the... homophobia," but doesn't actually say where or whether there was homophobia in Shen Yun. This is presumably an error of the source. But even so. Why do not we also include what else she noted in passing, such as Shen Yun's extraordinary use of a gigantic face of Karl Marx in front of a red tide (presumably of blood!) Falun Gong's anti-communist rhetoric appears far more prominent than its opinions about homosexuality, which when I read their press office now they seem not particularly strident about: https://faluninfo.net/misconceptions-intolerant/ (do they lie because they know that discrimination against homosexuality is not tolerated in the West? I am curious to look at some ethnographies). In any case, I found the Karl Marx face just as, if not more striking. So why don't we put that in the second paragraph as well?
Or alternatively, why doesn't the page have a proper discussion of FLG-associated media entities, which includes an accurate representation of the precise nature of the relationship between FLG and the entities, and the other commercial and cultural initiatives?
I would suggest the discussion of these matters largely mirror how other religions are discussed on Wikipedia. I presume that the page on Catholicism notes that Catholics run newspapers and media companies (I can think of some, including some which have garnered controversy), the page on Islam notes that Muslims run newspapers (many I could also think of, several quite controversial) and so on. How are these relationships described? I suspect that Falun Gong-associated media entities are relatively more significant for Falun Gong, which is a new... religion... and they serve a function vis-a-vis the Chinese state actions against Falun Gong adherents in China - but I think that would make sense for the general approach. Without any benchmark for the appropriate way for a tertiary source to discuss something like this, what tethers the dispute? Indeed, why not make it the lead, and include Marx, anti-gay, anti-evolution, and every other thing we don't like that is associated with this group? There is a reason for it, and that reason relates to what encyclopedias are for and how they are supposed to read.
In the meantime, the second paragraph as it stands now is an embarrassment. It should just be removed. Put in some placeholder text about FLG adherents founding media and performing arts companies to spread their message, or whatever it may be. There's a way to write about this without either doing propaganda for or against the group, which is the entire point. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 13:50, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Let's tone down the rhetoric, shall we? I would like you to address the questions that I raised. These are all reasonable objections, which you have not addressed.
We can presumably agree, per WP:LEAD, that the lead section should summarize, from a neutral point of view, what the major features of a topic are, and that it should present facts in a manner that is intelligible and with appropriate relative emphasis or WP:WEIGHT. We determine that by surveying the best sources available to use, which in this case would include the books that have been written about Falun Gong, as well other sources such as human rights groups, think tanks, and news agencies. Do you agree? If so, and setting aside even the question of factual accuracy and neutrality, your edit clearly fails to adhere to these requirements. I'll give an example. The topic of organ harvesting from Falun Gong adherents has received substantial, renewed media attention in the last two or three years. Last year an expert tribunal, headed by a famed international jurist, found the Chinese party-state has sanctioned the large-scale killing of Falun Gong adherents for their organs. There are at least three books that deal extensively with this issue, along with several academic journal articles. In short, thousands of pages of reliably sourced material has been written about the issue of organ harvesting from Falun Gong adherents. By contrast, less than one full sentence has been written in a reliable source about Shen Yun's alleged anti-LGBQT messaging (whether the "homophobia" in question was even properly credited to Shen Yun is, as I said, unclear). And yet you have given this more prominence in this article than thousands upon thousands of pages written about organ harvesting. You have edit warred to enforce your position, over the justified objections of other editors. This is just such bizarre behaviour. TheBlueCanoe 18:52, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous, please stop trying to use wikipedia to push the agenda/view of your organization. WP:NOTHERE conduct like this will not be tolerated much longer. Horse Eye Jack ( talk) 18:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Eh, just coming back to this. So what is the actual reason for the second paragraph, as it stands now? It's still not clear to me. It seems clear that these forms of activism are an important part of the Falun Gong experience, but the inclusion of the anti-evolution thing here is bizarre (not only the content), and it's still not clear why it's all meant to go in the lead?? Why not say that Cate Blanchette watched the performance (just to pick a random pro-Falun talking point for argument's sake)? What is the point of all this?
I think an important question is whether or not the media and other organizations are actually administered centrally by the Falun Gong. From what I can tell so far, technically there is no such thing as a central Falun Gong organization, but I'm happy to be corrected. This would make relationship between these entities and this page a bit more complex.
I am getting quite curious about all this. For the editors who have more experience on the topic, apart from the fairly sensational media articles that keep getting quoted, what should I read and what scholars should I look at? I have done some drive-by stuff on this page from time to time, and my main interests lie elsewhere, but the acrimony has piqued my interest. It obviously does not seem a matter of reliable sources alone? Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 15:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Falun Gong has moralistic, socially conservative beliefs, preaching against homosexuality and sex out of wedlock.
— The Guardian
Among them, Li has railed against what he called the wickedness of homosexuality, feminism and popular music while holding that he is a god-like figure who can levitate and walk through walls. [...] Hurley, who wrote for The Epoch Times until he left in 2013, said he saw practitioners in leadership positions begin drawing harder and harder lines about acceptable political positions.
“Their views were always anti-abortion and homophobic, but there was more room for disagreements in the early days,” he said.
— NBC News
— MarkH21 talk 15:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)Ma, who faced intense pressure from the city's Chinese community not to vote for the resolution, also came under attack because of Falun Gong's antigay teachings
— Bay Area Reporter
@ Horse Eye Jack: [ Your edit] canceled a lot well sourced materials without a reasonable explanation, I have the following questions for you:
With respect to WP:BURDEN, a reminder that the lede section was very stable for years. It was substantially altered by Bloodofox beginning a few weeks ago. Legitimate concerns were raised regarding Bloodofox's edits with respect to WP:LEAD, WP:V, and WP:NPOV, including WP:WEIGHT. These concerns have been repeatedly raised, and never addressed. Instead, users have edit warred to enforce their preferred version, and repeatedly accused other editors of acting in bad faith. This is not a platform for activism, and it is not a battleground. The recent additions, which you folks appear to have been warring over, has the same problems as Bloodofox's earlier, contested additions, and I have reverted. TheBlueCanoe 21:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Let me say again that the 6 sources User:Bloodofox provided do not support the contents being added in. User:Bloodofox also deleted a lot of reliable sources that are not serving an activist’s narrative. I am listing them below:There are no shortage of sources on these topics. A handful of them are plastered all over this talk page. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
There seems to be a typo causing citation text to show up in the main article. In the Persecution section, Causes subsection, paragraph 3, there is nonsense at the end ",.ref name="ReidG">Reid, Graham (29 April–5 May 2006) "Nothing left to lose" Archived 30 September 2007 at the Wayback Machine, New Zealand Listener. Retrieved 6 July 2006.</ref>". I would fix it myself, but I don't have edit permissions. Astropiloto ( talk) 20:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
In the lead, The Epoch Times is described as promoting extreme-right politics. There are 3 sources provided: NYT, New Republic, and NBC. I checked these 3 articles one by one and found that both NYT and NBC mentioned "right-wing", only New Republic mentioned ET has in common with "extreme right-wing". I feel it is not a good idea to mislead that NYT and NBC associated the ET with extreme-right, so we should make it clear. The notability of New Republic is not as good as NYT and NBC, I suggest we move this reference to somewhere in the body. Precious Stone 14:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Due to ongoing edit warring, I full protected this page. -- Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I think this would help deal with the issues and bring in editors who haven't been involved with the article, but I don't have time to do it. It needs to be done in strict accordance with WP:RfC. Doug Weller talk 08:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
As far as I noticed, historically speaking, activists often came to do things forbidden in WP:SOAP. As WP:ARBFLG shows, 2 of them were indefinitely banned for this topic. Years back, another 2 anti FLG activist users I encountered were also banned for the topic. Activists can be easily identified, as they tend to add WP:OR contents or CCP related unreliable sources. They are not necessarily CCP followers though. BTW, users who try to prevent activism shouldn’t be called “disrupting” wiki pages, nor should they be labelled as FG followers or COI in an attempt to discredit them.
- Preventing vandalism by some activists on controversial topics, spent many of my edits. While other pages are not as controversial as these, there is no need for much talk or changes. The key for identifying activist is as WP:SOAP mentioned
I did not advocate my own opinions in the articles, but have rather accurately represented what reliable sources say which was not “deflected criticisms” of Falun Gong.“content hosted in Wikipedia is not for: Advocacy, propaganda. …You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your opinions.“
- I have confidence my edits were made while sticking to Wiki rules and under good faith. Again, I have never been and am not paid by anyone to make edits in Wikipedia.
I revisit this page after years to find it's like being in a time warp. The SPAs are still there pushing their propaganda, and fighting even the smallest attempts to steer the article away from their orthodoxy. Plus ça change. -- Ohc ¡digame! 15:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Seeing today's set of reversions and in an attempt to keep the article from descending into another bout of edit warring, I am imposing a 1 Revert Rule on the article as an Arbitration Enforcement action. -- Guerillero | Parlez Moi 16:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
In the current set of edits that were just made (and reverted) and in the ongoing discussions above, there are multiple open 'lines' of discussion and disagreement. I suggest that these been broken up and discussed separately, in multiple threads simultaneously. For example, one section could be about the lead. Discuss only what should be in the lead paragraph on the FLG's* involvement in media etc. Another section is about the section in the article where these issues are hashed out. And when editing, I suggest NUMBER YOUR EDITS and write a corresponding number on the page, so //that actual edit// can be discussed. It is completely unproductive and pointless to do reverts which are going to include like 20 contentious things. Break each of the contentious things up into 20 (or whatever) separate disputes, and hammer each one out, in the section which it corresponds to.
For example, maybe someone objects to the block excerpt from NBC because it's simply a WP:DUE issue; or objects to the point about the precise financial relationship between "Falun Gong" and those media companies being unclear (when, according to these scholarly works, it's actually quite clear); or objects to whatever else. Edit it as you see appropriate (delete, refactor, find a better source), NUMBER IT, start a discussion ABOUT THAT EDIT. Then the editing and discussion can be dynamic, multi-threaded, and consensus reached on each point of dispute separately.
I don't know if this is standard practice, and if anyone has a better idea, please suggest it, but that is how I propose we proceed. Please let me know if this suggestion is not clear.
*well, the article is not going to put it vaguely like that: "the FLG" is a shorthand we use. In most cases we would specify if it's "the teachings of FLG," or "people who practice FLG," or "an organization founded and primarily staffed by people who practice FLG," or whatever it may be. This is not a single organizational structure, but a practice spread across the world, where the individuals who practice it do things in order to gain social recognition (and in their religious goals, "saving people," if I have the terminology correct.) And yes, I have been reading David Ownby's book and three dissertations by anthropologists which we should be citing. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 15:24, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
I have been following this topic for awhile. My interest in this wiki page was piqued after reading the recent NBC piece accusing EpochTimes of "racism" and propagating conspiracy theory that the Chinese Communist Party manufactured COVID. NBC subsequently amended parts of this article and its title. For good reason--its piece on youtube garnered 3000 downvotes and 265 upvotes, a staggering 91.9% disapproval rating.
I am curious and would genuinely like to understand how and why this page is being thus organized. We know that this group has been on the receiving end of abject human rights atrocity in China. We know that this group has been subject to forced organ harvesting, which in the decision of the China Tribunal on Forced Organ Harvesting, has been taking place against a large number of member of this group for a substantial period of time. There is an article that described the cold genocide of Falun Gong.
I would genuinely like to know why, despite all these humanitarian crises, this wiki page decides to confer the top priority, and place the spotlight, on a quote from a report by a Los Angeles magazine describing Falun Gong as a conspiracy theorist cult obsessed with aliens, and on where some of their members live, how they have arranged relationships, and their zoning disputes.
Some of these assertions may well be true. But it confounds me they were given such preeminence, over and above an objective and partial account of this movement, its central teachings and belief system, its exercises, and its experience of abject human rights abuse. It reminds me of what happened during the era of Nazi Germany, whose press is obsessed with the Jewish conspiracy, such as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", when its people are being culled in the millions.
It may be a truism to say that the representation of a topic must inevitably adopt a narrative, and different narrative forms, in turn, will produce different responses to the social practices involved in genocide: empathy and ownership, or revulsion, alienation, and dehumanization (Daniel Feierstein). The narrative I see that is being propagated now on this page, is a narrative of conspiracy and political radicalism, calculated to invoke revulsion and dehumanization against the victims of genocide.
The accuracy of these assertions of political radicalism, and conspiracy theories aside (I look forward to discuss this at another time), I'm all but certain that the current portrayal violates the standards on "article structure", "due and undue weight" and "balancing", by giving priority to a fringe aspect of this movement, over its central elements and experience.
Ultimately, I think it is an issue of basic human decency. I may stand corrected, but it seems to me that the forced organ harvesting on 5-6 figure scale is probably more important than a zoning dispute that some of these members have with their neighbours.
I am genuinely, and honestly curious about others think. Am I really alone or wrong in thinking this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HollerithPunchCard ( talk • contribs) — HollerithPunchCard ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Presumably Falun Gong/Dafa has some main corporation/association/charity (in USA)? Probably we should include official info on that "main" corporation, give it considerable weight (if it exists), and also find which other organizations are associated with Falun Dafa. Notrium ( talk) 03:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
The Junker source identifies the site at Dragon Springs as operating as a registered charity (presumably a 501(c)c?). If I understand correctly, that is not inconsistent with the claim that it's registered as a "church" or religious organization as well. There are also "Falun Dafa Associations" registered in probably dozens of international jurisdictions, so this isn't new. One question, however, is whether it makes sense to say that "Falun Gong" operates out of Deep Park, and this goes to the question of what Falun Gong means in this context. Is it a body of moral teachings and physical movements? If so, it is not "based" out of a geographical location. Is it a community of believer? The community is globally dispersed, there are legally registered Falun Dafa charities and not-for-profits in numerous jurisdictions, and most of it followers are in Mainland China. So the claim in the lede that Falun Gong is "based" out of Deer Park doesn't make sense. TheBlueCanoe 22:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Currently the "history" section discusses persecution by the Chinese government, only for it to simply drop off when the move to the United States—specifically to Dragon Springs—occurs in the early 2000s. While this once again emphasizes a variety of claims of persecution, this is not where the new religious movement's history ends, and it needs to pick up from there to discuss things like the new religious movement's move to its Dragon Springs headquarters in Deerpark, New York, as well as its political turn at around 2015-2016. There's about 20 years missing from the history section. :bloodofox: ( talk) 23:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
With all due respect, if there is an argument, make it. Bald and loaded assertions of disruption and whitewashing are not constructive HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 15:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Given the intense interest in questions of categorization, what do editors think of having a sub-section, in the area dealing with the anti-Falun Gong campaign, about the thinking around whether the Chinese government's actions against the Falun Gong should be considered a genocide?
Some of the relevant references on this issue might include:
It's also noted in Dictionary of Genocide (ABC-CLIO, 30 Nov 2007) by Paul R. Bartrop and Samuel Totten (a giant in the genocide studies field).
Note that the China Tribunal judgement, which makes extensive discussion of the genocide question, was rendered by a former war crimes prosecutor who prosecuted Slobodan Milošević. I can pull out some quotes from the above sources if that is helpful. Cleopatran Apocalypse ( talk) 08:25, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
HollerithPunchCard ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) made the following claim:
There is an (obviously unreliable) Falun Gong source that makes the same claim: [ https://faluninfo.net/forced-organ-harvesting-in-china-falun-gong/ ]
And it has made it into these Wikipedia articles:
There are some obvious problems with these claims, such as using [ http://organharvestinvestigation.net/] and The Weekly Standard as sources, but is there any credible evidence that these accusations against the Chinese government are true? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 11:14, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
From Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Organ harvesting:
Currently the article goes to some length to claim that the Falun Gong is "decentralized", often backed by non- WP:RS sources like falundafa.org, and says that the Chinese government claims otherwise. This is obviously dubious, particularly given the structure of the organization in 2020, and its coordinated political involvement with outreach efforts like The Epoch Times, propaganda arms like Shen Yun, and schools at the Dragon Springs compound. This section needs to be totally rewritten from more recent reliable sources. :bloodofox: ( talk) 23:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I think Binksternet is getting somewhere. However, assuming that the Falun Gong membership follows absolutely Li Hongzhi's words, this is a necessary, but not sufficient condition to make the claim of centralization. Centralization presupposes structure. It requires not just a locus of thought, but also a concentration of initiative, power and function. It is a basic presupposition of most, if not all religion, that the authority and validity of the founder's teachings/instructions are unconditional and self-evident within the sphere of that religion. Unconditional adherence is not, in and of itself, equivalent to centralization. HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 15:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Currently, the first section of this article following the lede is titled "Shen Yun, The Epoch Times, and political involvement.” It includes long excerpts of exclusively critical/one-sided news reporting on these two entities, with a fair bit of loaded language thrown in for good measure.
Editors defending this section have argue that the material is “well sourced,” and therefore should not be removed. Alas, WP:RS is not the only content policy on this encyclopedia. If it were, the encyclopedia would become a massive garbage heap of disjointed facts and statements. We are editors: our job is to curate, to select, to summarize, and to present information in a manner that is narratively coherent, digestible, and that represents a neutral point of view.
To that end, even if this entire section passes WP:RS (and it might not; I’ll leave that open for now), it most definitely fails to adhere to other content policies, notably WP:NPOV, WP:DUE. Here’s a non-exhaustive explanation of why:
I'll note that the addition of this material never gained consensus on the talk page. Editors have simply edit warred to keep it in, in various incarnations. The WP:BURDEN now rests with them to explain why it should be kept in this form. TheBlueCanoe 20:16, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm noting that Bloodofox has not responded to the objections raised above, but has instead a) doubled down on casting aspersions against other editors; and b) continued to perpetuate the same problems noted above by adding another lengthy, [16] out-of-order section at the top of the article body that gives undue prominence to the location of FLG's U.S. based of operations. Again, no problem including something about this in the article, but this presentation fails WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT again. I am going to condense both these sections and move to the relevant parts of the article. If Bloodofox wants to revert, I hope to see convincing responses to the above. TheBlueCanoe 23:52, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
I made a comment earlier today and realized that it might fit better in this discussion. I also realized that I'm not alone in my concern about prioritizing a number of block quotes portraying the fringe aspects of the movement (obsession of aliens, arranged relationships, zoning disputes) over the main introduction of the movement, such its central beliefs, teachings, practice, exercises, and its experience of human rights persecution. Assuming that these fringe aspects are true, they should be relegated to one of the back section, in a manner commensurate to their degree of importance in relation to the overall movement.
Honestly, I am quite surprised that there is this much controversy over a straightforward religious group that is persecuted in China. It is almost like human rights and lives do not matter (at least not as much as whether these people have arranged relationships, whether they were informed that their visas expired, whether they have zoning disputes, and whether they believe in the existence of aliens). — Preceding unsigned comment added by HollerithPunchCard ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)— HollerithPunchCard ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
I don't know or care the history of the editors involved in this discussion, my interest is in addressing the issues being discussed in line with Wikipedia's policies. While certain aspects of individual editors' edit histories could be concerning, that is not an argument to ignore valid points they're making. In particular, I don't see anyone in this current discussion advocating for "scrubbing" this article to push a viewpoint that doesn't belong, because at face value, the point is valid. As far as there are "sides" to the controversies in this article, this discussion makes it clear to me that if ideological editing is happening, it's likely not happening just from one side. This is why wikipedia has policies, let's please stick to those. Arathald ( talk) 20:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Without dwelling deeper at this time, it seems disingenuous to me that one camp (yes this are clearly camps here) would purport to champion free speech, and condemn censorship, and yet in the same vein call for wholesale topic banning against the alternative voice. One would think that censoring an expression, is lesser evil yet than taking the voice away from a person altogether. It seems that the interest here is less the merits of the subject matter, than victory by any means necessary, at all costs--please correct me if I'm wrong. Feel free to disagree, but I personally find this attitude morally reprehensible.
We are dealing with a unique subject matter here (although such uniqueness certainly does not exempt this topic from the standards of objectivity and truth, in fact, the converse is true). Discussions of a group's practice and belief is not the same as the description of, say, a lawn mower. Elementary principles of mutual respect, religious freedom and respect for diversity, means that insider perspectives should, at least, be accorded a minimum standard of respect, and allowed a reasonable degree of representation. In fact, contemporary social research has held that differences should not only be recognized--"insider expertise" should be privileged. As such, LGTBQ people are understood as having certain special knowledge or authority on queer issues, women on gender issues, racial and ethnic minorities on race issues, etc.
What I have observed so far on this page is quite the opposite. Internal perspectives on FG are being driven out, precisely on the basis that they are held by the FG community itself. Editors are being witch hunted, and scrutinized, not for the merits of their contributions, but for any possible or suspected association with FG. It is almost as if this community does not get to speak about their own beliefs and community. I find this contrived effort to marginalize the FG community on this page downright reprehensible. If you are to replace all mentions of "Falun Gong" on this page with say, "Jew" or "Islam", the average bystander would find the discussions on this page a shining example of antisemitism and islamophobia.
In a way, I'm not surprised. Since long, I have been trying to figure out why is no one speaking out on the gross human rights violations taking place against FG in China, including forced organ harvesting, despite the sheer gravity of the matter. I think I found my answer on this page. HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 00:58, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
Never have I seen a wiki page fraught with such heated controversyYou've almost no experience with the site, then.
such inflammatory and toxic attacks hurled against one anotherPlease point to an example of a personal attack instead of making unevidenced accusations (which is a type of personal attack).
it seems disingenuous to me that one camp (yes this are clearly camps here) would purport to champion free speech, and condemn censorship, and yet in the same vein call for wholesale topic banning against the alternative voiceIt seems even more disingenous to lie about what one group of editors is saying. Some users have only called for topic bans of notably disruptive users who are removing any voice other that FG's -- it is hypocrisy for you to to not condemn pro-FG censorship in the same breath you accuse us of censorship with.
"insider expertise" should be privileged-- which is why we favor academic and journalistic sources that worked with the LGTBQ community over those that have not, and why we cite academic and journalistic sources that have actually studied FG over those going off of hearsay. The problem here is that some FG members don't like the conclusions drawn by those academic or journalistic sources because it doesn't fit with the narrative put out by Li Hongzhi.
Internal perspectives on FG are being driven out, precisely on the basis that they are held by the FG community itself.This false accusation is the sort of personal attack you accuse others of making.
Since long, I have been trying to figure out why is no one speaking out on the gross human rights violations taking place against FG in China, including forced organ harvesting, despite the sheer gravity of the matter.And now we know you haven't even read the article at all. No one is contesting the material in there, which rather disproves your accusation that the NPOV editors here are 'anti-FG'.
I am amazed at the kind of cognitive dissonance that someone has to contend with to churn out the kind of response given above. Throughout my contributions on this page, I have made every effort not to name names, and indeed, I have not named anyone in my comments. Most if not all of my comments are framed as general, impersonal observations. Yet, there are person(s) who immediately and spontaneously identify themselves with my observations. It is *almost* as if such persons are aware that they fit the descriptions I made.
Those who have seen my earlier comments would know that my concern surrounding the important human rights issues experienced by this group is not that they were not incorporated in the article, which is clearly a straw man. Rather, the concern was that they were not given due weight, as at one point, the article began with discussions of some New York compound, some zoning disputes, arranged relationships, issues about not being informed of Visa status, and discussions of belief in aliens--matters that appears absolutely peripheral to the central beliefs and experience of this movement.
Within a single response, I have been accused by this kind user of (i) cluttering the page with emotional propaganda, (ii) making false personal attacks, (iii) being disingenuous, (iv) lying and (v) being hypocritical. It is *almost* as if my observations about toxicity and bad faith on this page are true. HollerithPunchCard ( talk) 14:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
In or around the Dragon Springs compound exists at least two schools: Fei Tian College in Middletown and Fei Tian Academy of the Arts. Remarkably, the article makes no mention of either of these private schools. With very few exceptions, private schools that hold religious affiliation in the United States are either Christian or Jewish, and very rarely maintain association with new religious groups, which makes the existence of these schools notable and remarkable.
As sources that mention it note, the Dragon Springs compound is notoriously secretive, but it is obviously the new religious movement's headquarters in the US, as well as some of its extensions, like Shen Yun. Fei Tian Academy of the Arts has received less media coverage, but there are mentions of it more broadly.
Here's a report on the school from 2017 to start with, but there are various other mentions of it, and Fei Tian College seems to hold CHEA accreditation via the New York State Board of Regents ( see also NYcollegesorg), but I can't find any information from the U.S. Department of Education on its status otherwise. The college also has a Twitter account. One of its two posts is an Epoch Times promotional piece, of course. I'll build a section on the topic and add it. :bloodofox: ( talk) 00:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)