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Should the article, specifically the section dealing with events that led to the suppression of the Falun Gong in the spring of 1999, note the alleged familial connection between two of Falun Gong’s leading opponents in this era? Two reliable sources (excerpted below) have noted this connection and the possible significance of it. The men are He Zuoxiu, a physisist and opponent of qigong, Chinese medicine, and pseudo-science; and Luo Gan, a high-ranking Chinese official with significant influence over the Ministry of Public Security. Both men were instrumental in the events that led to the suppression, and benefited personally from it. One proposal for what could be on the page is this:
As stated above, there are two reliable sources who note this connection. The first, anthropologist Noah Porter, did so in his MA thesis, which was later published as a book. Although only a Master’s dissertation, the work achieved considerable influence, and was well reviewed by more established experts on the field. Porter is not an expert on Chinese politics, however, and some editors expressed concern that Porter’s source on the family link are Falun Gong websites which, while not necessarily untrue, are not necessarily true either. This is a slightly redacted version of Porter’s synthesis of the events (emphasis added):
(In case it is not clear, the point is that Luo wanted to crack down on Falun Gong for years, but had no pretext. He Zuoxiu published the article in Tianjin, which set off a chain reaction that resulted in Falun Gong demonstrating in front of the Zhongnanhai government compound. That demonstration is widely viewed as the catalyst for the crackdown on Falun Gong. As Porter notes, Luo Gan seemed to have been pulling the strings in Tianjin and Zhongnanhai, and was as a result of these events, he was put in charge of the suppression of Falun Gong).
The second source that points out this connection is Ethan Gutmann, an investigative journalist who has written and published on Falun Gong for about a decade. Gutmann was in Beijing as the events of 1999 unfolded, and present at Zhongnanhai when the pivotal Falun Gong demonstration took place. He appears to have sources in the Chinese government, and conducted extensive interviews for his account of the events leading up to the suppression. Gutmann wrote a feature article in the National Review which analyzed the events of the Spring of 1999, essentially arguing that the Falun Gong were baited into protesting at Zhongnanhai, providing certain Communist Party leaders with a long-awaited excuse to launch a full suppression of the group. It cannot be so concisely excerpted, so I would advise reading the full article. [1] One key excerpt is here:
Editors who oppose the inclusion of the information on He and Luo’s family connection point out that Gutmann does not explain the source of this claim (to which I would say that journalistic articles like this one don’t have footnotes, but are fact-checked by discerning editorial boards).
I did research to see if any other sources (outside the Falun Gong context) have noted the family connection between He Zuoxiu and Luo Gan. There is virtually no information on Luo Gan’s wife. However, in the city of Yangzhou, the He family has a garden frequented by tourists where they display their family tree. According to multiple tourist accounts, the family tree indicates that one of He Zuoxiu’s relatives, He Zuozhi (probably a sister or cousin), is married to Luo Gan. This is not definitive proof, but it certainly helps to make the case that the family connection is real, and no evidence to the contrary has ever been presented.
So, we need to establish:
I hope I have presented the evidence here judiciously and have not left anything out. Sorry this is such a long RfC, but it's a complex issue. Homunculus ( duihua) 16:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I was actually discussing this with SilkTork on his/her talk page, and neglected to respond here. Silk raised a point, which I think has some merit, that highlighting the Zhongnanhai counter-narrative may be premature. If the narrative about the He / Luo relationship (and the significant of it) gains more ground in the relevant literature as being significant, then we are in a better position to assess its notability and relevance to the topic. For now, if we present the facts of these events in a straight-forward way, without the speculation on the significance of the familial connection, I think that should be satisfactory. Also, if ever a page is created dealing with the April 25 protest directly, that may be a more appropriate forum to explore the different interpretations of the event in greater detail. I'm not attached to any particular approach. Homunculus ( duihua) 23:48, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Do you really want this to be an RfC or is this some sort of "I want to intimidate my opponents so I post an RfC that no outsider will understand"? Seriously, if you want anyone other than the usual suspects to give comment, keep it simple... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
"may", "seems", "just might". And other sources don't claim any deliberate provocation. Other sources directly blame Falun Gong for escalating the situation [2] [3]. Another one says:
"Falundafa likely became the target of Chinese authorities in 1999. On April 25, 1999 around 10,000 Falundafa believers appeared outside the Chinese leadership's Zhongnanhai compound in Beijing. Contrary to general belief, this was not a protest against the Chinese Government. It was a request for legal recognition and defense against attacks made by a physics professor He Zuoxiu. Prof. He had made a second career as a debunker of what he regarded as pseudoscience and bogus beliefs. He wrote a critique of Falundafa in the April issue of Science and Technology for Youth, an obscure Chinese magazine. The Falundafa protest was in response to this (Eckholm, 2001)." [4].
I already heard of this guy before I saw him in Falun Gong articles. Back in 1994, He Zuoxiu was already a famous skeptic, forcing the Chinese government to make a public commitment against pseudoscience and superstition, see Hongcheng_Magic_Liquid. He appears as a skeptic in 1995 in Science [5] and in May 2006 in Nature [6] (I can't read the full article). There was nothing strange or abnormal about him giving a talk against Falun gong (which was becoming popular at the time, and had a good amount of superstitious explanations for qigong).
Please remove this as speculations from less than a handful of sources, that are not supported on any actual fact. We are not going to add every conspiracy theory. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 11:12, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
But leaving aside the question of this alternative narrative, does anyone dispute that the relationship between He and Luo exists? One might disagree with what it means, or think that conspiracy theories are out of place, but it is a fact, is it not? I previously had some concerns, but the stuff from Yangzhou (and the lack of contrary evidence) put those to rest. If we don’t include the short paragraph expounding on the importance of the relationship, at a minimum I think it would be fine to note, when introducing Luo Gan, that he is related through marriage to He Zuoxiu. Given the facts, readers can come to their own conclusions.—Zujine| talk 14:48, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
This RfC is unlikely to draw much more constructive comment. As far as I can tell, no one who weighed in took the time to read the sources or analyse them. To recap this and the preceding discussion, there were a couple initial concerns that were raised about inclusion of the He/Luo connection and accompanying theory. Namely, concern about the authenticity and sourcing of the claim, the use of the Zhao article as a source for the claim, and the statement of the connection as unqualified fact. The first of these concerns has been resolved through reference to other sources (outside the Falungong context) which assert the family relationship. The second and third points were addressed early on in edits by The Sound And The Fury. There do not appear to be any further, objective problems, but only normative interpretations. About the inclusion of the collusion theory, I pointed out that this is actually a question of balance, and that Gutmann and Porter are prominent sources on Falungong whose views represent a notable perspective. No one responded to those points. I don't think that inclusion needs to be long. Can I propose that we just adopt the wording presented at the start of this RfC? It's short, well supported by the sources, and is almost certainly an improvement to what's now in the article. That way we can wrap this up. —Zujine| talk 14:52, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
If I may summarize. After two RFCs, Respected administrators User John Carter and User Silktork, as well as User IRWolfie, User AgadaUrbanit, and User Enric Naval, in addition to myself and User OhConfucius, all have voiced their opinions that the He-Luo connection does not belong. Apparently this still does not satisfy the users that continue to push for its inclusion. So in light of that, it should be clear that the references (no matter how 'diluted') must be removed. If this still does not satisfy users pushing for the reference's inclusion, then I think I have exhausted what needs to be said here. Colipon+( Talk) 19:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
There's a notice on top of this page that singles out User:Samuel Luo "and his sockpuppets" as being banned from editing this article. But Samuel is not the only one who has been sanctioned as a result of the arbitration case, even indefinitely, and it's a general Wikipedia policy that block-evading sockpuppets are banned from editing articles. Since the last time a suspected sockpuppet of Samuel Luo edited was in December 2007, I think this notice is outdated, not very useful, and should be removed. Shrigley ( talk) 00:25, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
No critics? A NRM like Scientology in China could be no controversies? Lots need to be added. The elimination, rejection, or even some disgust is not only coming from the suppression of the Chinese goverment.-- WWbread ( Open Your Mouth?) 02:56, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
[edit conflict] I just removed recent good faith additions by an editor because they relied on primary sources or no sources and didn't seem to establish notability for the claims. Can we get some good journalism or scholarship on this? I noticed these were imported from the Chinese version. The graffiti on bank notes is rather interesting--I hadn't seen this development--but it would be a good idea to have something more solid about where this fits into the broader anti-CPC scheme. UPDATE: Not a question of criticism or not, simply good sourcing etc. please take a look at wp:npov and wp:rs. Let's not get mean about things. The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 03:01, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
This article is a pretty good start, but it is still far from WP:GA pages like Plan 9 from Bell Labs. There is still a quality gap to cover. I would like to explain more clearly the placement of {{ Multiple issues}} tag for this page, with intention to encourage editors to improve the article.
I am restoring the tag to allow collaborative resolution of outstanding issues. I would request not to remove the tag again till those multiple issues are resolved via discussed consensus on this talk page. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 22:13, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
This is... unusual. Tagged because not GA? Let's look at these issues. 1) some guy writes that the article is propaganda, based on disagreeing with the stuff about organ harvesting etc.? It's unclear of the points he raised which specifically are at play. If there are substantive issues of missing or problematic content, then specifically point out which and explain in detail. The reference here is unclear. 2) is because there's one blog post by an expert on the subject, one of among four references. The source is still there (Ethan Gutmann, "How many harvested?", March 10, 2011.) but the point is already made with CQ Researcher, it appears, so we could probably easily delete that. Is this a substantive issue? 3) this discussion, which you started, is above. The last thing Hom writes is " If you have a clear, specific objection, please share it and propose an alternative." You didn't answer. This is so weird. The only specific course of action in all this would be to remove the Gutmann blog. On 1) and 3) there's nothing really to do. The tagging now is obviously just an unsubtle way to make a WP:point. You're welcome to delete the Gutmann blog reference, if you insist. Other editors may see some reason for it to stay. The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 23:21, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
If you think that a statement of fact that is supported by the Associated Press, three New York Times articles, and the U.S. World and News Report is "self-published," then you don't understand what self-published means. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Homunculus ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Agada, the tags you added were discussed. They were found to be inapplicable; the concerns you pointed to have either already been resolved, or never existed. There is consensus that the tags you added should be removed. You are the lone dissenter, yet your dissent seems to be based solely on a misunderstanding of WP:SPS or WP:NOR (namely, your belief that a fact attributed to the New York Times and Associated Press is somehow self-published or original research).
On another note, there is no policy that dictates the use of tags. The essay WP:TAGGING does state, however, that "Anyone who sees a tag, but does not see the purported problem with the article and does not see any detailed complaint on the talk page, may remove the tag." More importantly, the essay suggests that in cases of a disagreement, editors should attempt to discuss calmly and in good faith. On multiple discussion threads, myself and others have politely and repeatedly asked you yet to identify the content issues you object to. You have responded to attempts at collaboration with escalating sarcasm, tag-bombing, and threats. I will state again: if you have a clear, specific objection or suggestion, you are welcome to share it. I am confident that any and all legitimate, constructive suggestions for the page can be considered. Homunculus ( duihua) 13:20, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
This article may be not neutral because some opinions of Chinese government are ignored. In addition, the fact that Falun gong organization involved in Chinese politics and damage the Chinese society should also be mentioned in the article.-- A20120312 ( talk) 16:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I see that an article for Chen Fuzhao was created and speedily deleted. If there isn't going to be a separate article, does he merit a mention here ? Coverage in the Chinese media can certainly be included here to give the Chinese government's side of the story and there are also these sources
I'm not very familiar with the media coverage of Chen Fuzhao in China but given that the government cited him in a letter to the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and said "In May this year Falun Gong practitioner Chen Fuzhao, of Chanan County, Zhejiang Province, misled by Li Hongzhi, put poison in the food of some beggars, leading to the deaths of 16 of them and one Buddhist", I assume they are employing the case as part of their campaign, which may be notable. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I was skeptical initially on inclusion, but Sean brought here 3 high quality major news reliable sources: BBC, Time Magazine and Reuters. Probably we could mention Chen Fuzhao in couple of sentences, while attributing carefully the information. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 19:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
I hope that observers of this page do not think that comments like those above represent an acceptable form of engagement on Wikipedia. To the contrary:
Note that User:AnAimlessRoad has been indefinitely banned from the site for abusing talk pages in this way. User 91.63.202.190 has also been blocked.—Zujine| talk 05:10, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
First three of total four paragraphs rely on the primary source: Li Hongzhi, Zhuan Falun. So I tagged the section. I would suggest to re-source using secondary references. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 21:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Agada, can you explain these changes? [12] I missed some primary sources in my last round of edits. I could fix those too if you pointed them out specifically. It's not super pressing, though; the presence of some primary sources, used sparingly to describe themselves, does not violate policy. You've gone and stripped them out of various sections of the article where, I believe, they were used appropriately to begin with.
In addition, you have removed all references to Zhuan Falun, even when the statements were clearly quoting Zhuan Falun, and there were other secondary sources used. Why did you feel this was necessary? You seem to believe that Wikipedia policy forbids the presence of primary sources, even when supported by others. This isn't the case.
You also requested quotations for every single item within 'teachings' where it wasn't provided in the reference. Why would you do that? I provided quotations within some of the references when they contained particularly short, quotable excerpts. Sometimes the issues are described in the course of paragraphs or several paragraphs. Sometimes I just didn't feel like adding a quote for everything. Are you going to require that every single thing in the article contains the quotation within the reference? I just don't understand what you're trying to do. If there is a particular item that you're not sure about, you can ask me on the talk page to give you a quotation.
In addition, you removed a very salient, germane image by saying it was unrelated. You also replaced an image that had been removed, noting in edit summary that removal hadn't been explained. Removal actually was explained. The image illustrated a sub-topic of Falun Gong—a 'Tuidang' protest in Hong Kong. The caption was also full of grammatical and spelling errors.
You also removed a large paragraph of densely sourced material about Falun Gong's demography in the 1990s. You said this was original synthesis. Could you explain why? This paragraph was proposed to you months ago. I asked repeatedly for your feedback on it before putting on the page. You have never explained where you think the problem is. Homunculus ( duihua) 12:21, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
The page of the reference should be noted as a matter of course, in the citation. Homunculus is under no obligation to provide you with a copy of the pages from the books if that is what you are suggesting. I'm not sure what scenario is being imagined, that he scan them and email them to you? That would probably violate copyright law. Verify them by buying them or going to a major library in your city.
On to the primary source policy. Here are some lines from it Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources:
Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages... A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source.
I think it's a good idea to make sure this section has better sources. But deleting the line [13] "Falun Gong exercises can be practiced individually or in group settings, and can be performed for varying lengths of time in accordance with the needs and abilities of the individual practitioner." seems a bit strange, doesn't it? This is not a controversial claim (i.e., it is true of many activities.) Nor have the reasons that no primary sources be used in a section that is about Falun Gong's teachings been properly discussed. I can see the need for controversial claims or unique interpretations, but for straightforward facts like that above, what is the problem with a primary citation?
Thus, the wholesale removal of these primary sources appears to me inappropriate. And I also note AU's removal of the figures, among all these deleting actions: [14].
Numbered below are the actions I am going to take. If there are any points disputed, use the number to refer to it and explain why. No particular order.
Attention:
Wikipedia's
Reliable Sources guideline demands that articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted
primary-source material for themselves.Articles should be based on reliable secondary sources. Wikipedians should not rely on, or try to interpret the content or importance of, primary sources, such as the websites of the Sai Baba movement or its critics. |
I've noticed following editnotice on Sathya Sai Baba page, maybe we could substitute in that message Sai Baba with Li Hongzhi/Falun Gong and utilize this message here. Just a thought. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 15:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Yes. I know. The page does include quotes from Li Hongzhi. The quotes selected are those that are also quoted in high quality secondary sources, which is why they now have both the primary and secondary sources attached to them. I did not want this section to get cluttered with in-text citations to this or that scholar; instead it is a more or less unadulterated representation of the moral precepts and understandings that all the major scholars agree compose Falun Gong's core beliefs. In select cases where the secondary sources quote Li, I incorporated some of those quotes. As to the use of faluninfo, clearwisdom, and clearharmony, I recommend that the latter two should be treated as primary sources. Faluninfo is in a slightly different category (I tend to think of it as the equivalent of the International Campaign for Tibet); it is frequently cited in academic works (so is clearwisdom, actually, but cautiously), and by NGOs, human rights groups, and governments. I'm pretty sure it's what David Ownby was referring to when he spoke of Falun Gong publications that are generally considered trustworthy in these communities. I still think that this source should be used sparingly, and in-text citations can be provided when circumstances call for it. As to the other two, Wikipedia permits the use of primary sources as sources about themselves, but they should be used with all the caveats that normally apply to primary sources. From the lists you provided, it appears that these sources almost never appear on Wikipedia pages (though there are a number of talk page links to clearwisdom). What is the value of this exercise? Homunculus ( duihua) 00:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. You may remove any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source. Whether and how quickly removal should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step.[2] Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. It has always been good practice to try to find and cite supporting sources yourself. Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living people; you should also be aware of how the BLP policy applies to groups.[3]
In the 'classification' section, I saw that an editor removed [22] a discussion of whether falungong meets the definition of a 'sect.' The edit summary suggested content violated WP:PARAPHRASE, but I don't see how. WP:PARAPHRASE is meant to prevent subtle copyright violations that take the form of very close paraphrasing. The deleted content didn't seem to have that problem. It was unsourced, but sources could easily be found and added. On a related note, I think this section could also use an expanded discussion of the 'religion' classification, especially in terms of the Chinese conceptualisation of religion (I think Penny and Ownby have written on this. I'll try to find what I'm thinking of).—Zujine| talk 05:18, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
The question remains as to how many Falun Gong practitioners were persecuted to death. I have a gut feeling that the number is around 800-1000 from July 1999 until now. Also, the claim that half of all people sentenced to reeducation through labor are FLG practitioners are without solid evidence. Why are there so few sympathizers of the FLG movement inside mainland China from the Tiananmen incident in 2001 to the Bo Xilai incident this year? I wonder that given all the people released from RTL throughout the years, the number of sympathizers should ideally be quite high, especially in today's Weibo/Twitter era. Yet even mainstream dissidents in China have rarely spoken out on behalf of the FLG movement. The fact that there is a dramatic reduction in the number of FLG practitioners in mainland China might not pinpoint to an actual reduction. It could be that there is only a dramatic reduction in the number of FLG practitioners in PUBLIC in mainland China. For people accusing of me of trying to whitewash a crime, well, I am not defending the CPC persecution of FLG or any of its other crimes. For this matter, I am only trying to objectively determine the true death toll related to FLG in China. It is just too obvious that the 5-figures number is wrong. Now I am throwing into doubt the 4-figures number. Is it possible to find ANY source out there that agrees with my number? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.244.24.47 ( talk) 10:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
First, I added the Falun Gong portal at the bottom; I don't know why it wouldn't be there and many of those pages are not referenced elsewhere in this article. If someone reverts, please explain, I'd like to understand the reasoning so I do not make the same mistake again. Second, I came to this page for information about the claims of organ harvesting, one of the most important issues surrounding this organization, true or not. It is the main topic of many of the external references and covered in other articles on WP not linked to from this one, but not mentioned here. Why not? Also, after posting this, will I be banned from entering the PRC? 65.217.137.4 ( talk) 22:21, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
here from gao zhisheng page but regarding organ harvesting im not sure why we would haev ALLEGATIONS rather than FACTS about sthing so serious? i read the policy and wikipedia said it should be VERIFIABLE and such claims are difficult to verify if not impossible. not saying i dont believe it. just sayin' Happy monsoon day
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Falun Gong's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "ctvJuly06":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC) um so how do we fix this error?
confusing part
Falun Gong has been described as highly centralized in the sense that neither spiritual nor practical authority is dispersed; local branches and assistants are afforded no special rights or titles; "assistants" or volunteer "contact persons" do not hold authority over other practitioners, regardless of how long they have practiced Falun Gong.[94][95]
1)what is the connection between these two things i.e. highly centralized in the sense that neither spiritual nor practical authority is dispersed and then the part about local branches and assistants. these seem unrelated. 2)what is the source for highly centralized it seems made up or contradicts things id read elsewhere about the group. ne1 care to explain or i may change this. i thought there was not actually a centralized organization at all. Happy monsoon day —Preceding undated comment added 00:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
yeah no problem i can access journal articles and stuff. im actually familiar with the group and the struggle in china so ill check out burgdoff and fix this part up [at some point not sure when but soonish] Happy monsoon day —Preceding undated comment added 01:58, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
delled this sentence with no source Surveys in China from the 1990s found that between 23% - 40% of practitioners held university degrees at the college or graduate level—several times higher than the general population. citation needed Happy monsoon day
The discussion on citations brought up a good point. I'd like to take on a the task of cleaning up all the references and standardising the format. I'll do a deeper review and discuss further, but I wanted to give a heads up so that there isn't a duplication of efforts. It will be a tedious task so I don't want anyone to waste time. —Zujine| talk 06:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
The article that showed US embassies had visited the alleged camp on two occasions was removed at some point. I've added back in. Feel free to make a better edit if you like. Bobby fletcher ( talk) 23:37, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
After reading this article, I think it's really good that this article include many academic references. However, I think something like opinion of Chinese opinion is ignored. When the article tells that Chinese government stops Falun Gong in China, the article didn't include the reason about why Chinese government did this. In fact, the Chinese government announced that Falun Gong did some illegal things. But this didn't be written. This may give people the opinion that the Chinese government stops it just because of tight relationship between the government and Falun Gong. This is unfair and is harmful to the neutrality. I think this kind of information should be included. I'm new in English Wikipedia and English is not my native language. So I think it may be better to start a discussion with everyone. Welcome to join it!-- A20120312 ( talk) 11:06, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
This article seems to do what a lot of articles seem to do when it comes to Marxism-Leninism, etc, in that it doesn't really separate the actual ideology itself from the post-Mao government's warping of it. The Deng legacy's authoritarianism and capitalism is counter to socialism and Marxism-Leninism. 96.41.152.155 ( talk) 01:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
The onus of showing notability is on the editor wishing to add information. If "Fazhengnian" is notable, please provide some detailed academic discussion on it - not vague references to Ghits. If there is some thorough academic discussion on the topic, like there is about everything else on this page, then I think we're fine. Primary sources are not the basis for establishing notability. TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 15:28, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
can someone help me out on the photos here. i notice the photo of ethan gutmann a researcher was recently deleted; it was a photograph that was taken by epoch times. woudl not that newspaper simply give us the photographs if they knew they could be useful and illustrative of the subject on wikipedia? if so can anyone point me in the direction I go about that? I would be happy to email them to request for them to sign over the rights to public domain or something creative commons. has anyone tried this? Happy monsoon day 20:35, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 |
Should the article, specifically the section dealing with events that led to the suppression of the Falun Gong in the spring of 1999, note the alleged familial connection between two of Falun Gong’s leading opponents in this era? Two reliable sources (excerpted below) have noted this connection and the possible significance of it. The men are He Zuoxiu, a physisist and opponent of qigong, Chinese medicine, and pseudo-science; and Luo Gan, a high-ranking Chinese official with significant influence over the Ministry of Public Security. Both men were instrumental in the events that led to the suppression, and benefited personally from it. One proposal for what could be on the page is this:
As stated above, there are two reliable sources who note this connection. The first, anthropologist Noah Porter, did so in his MA thesis, which was later published as a book. Although only a Master’s dissertation, the work achieved considerable influence, and was well reviewed by more established experts on the field. Porter is not an expert on Chinese politics, however, and some editors expressed concern that Porter’s source on the family link are Falun Gong websites which, while not necessarily untrue, are not necessarily true either. This is a slightly redacted version of Porter’s synthesis of the events (emphasis added):
(In case it is not clear, the point is that Luo wanted to crack down on Falun Gong for years, but had no pretext. He Zuoxiu published the article in Tianjin, which set off a chain reaction that resulted in Falun Gong demonstrating in front of the Zhongnanhai government compound. That demonstration is widely viewed as the catalyst for the crackdown on Falun Gong. As Porter notes, Luo Gan seemed to have been pulling the strings in Tianjin and Zhongnanhai, and was as a result of these events, he was put in charge of the suppression of Falun Gong).
The second source that points out this connection is Ethan Gutmann, an investigative journalist who has written and published on Falun Gong for about a decade. Gutmann was in Beijing as the events of 1999 unfolded, and present at Zhongnanhai when the pivotal Falun Gong demonstration took place. He appears to have sources in the Chinese government, and conducted extensive interviews for his account of the events leading up to the suppression. Gutmann wrote a feature article in the National Review which analyzed the events of the Spring of 1999, essentially arguing that the Falun Gong were baited into protesting at Zhongnanhai, providing certain Communist Party leaders with a long-awaited excuse to launch a full suppression of the group. It cannot be so concisely excerpted, so I would advise reading the full article. [1] One key excerpt is here:
Editors who oppose the inclusion of the information on He and Luo’s family connection point out that Gutmann does not explain the source of this claim (to which I would say that journalistic articles like this one don’t have footnotes, but are fact-checked by discerning editorial boards).
I did research to see if any other sources (outside the Falun Gong context) have noted the family connection between He Zuoxiu and Luo Gan. There is virtually no information on Luo Gan’s wife. However, in the city of Yangzhou, the He family has a garden frequented by tourists where they display their family tree. According to multiple tourist accounts, the family tree indicates that one of He Zuoxiu’s relatives, He Zuozhi (probably a sister or cousin), is married to Luo Gan. This is not definitive proof, but it certainly helps to make the case that the family connection is real, and no evidence to the contrary has ever been presented.
So, we need to establish:
I hope I have presented the evidence here judiciously and have not left anything out. Sorry this is such a long RfC, but it's a complex issue. Homunculus ( duihua) 16:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I was actually discussing this with SilkTork on his/her talk page, and neglected to respond here. Silk raised a point, which I think has some merit, that highlighting the Zhongnanhai counter-narrative may be premature. If the narrative about the He / Luo relationship (and the significant of it) gains more ground in the relevant literature as being significant, then we are in a better position to assess its notability and relevance to the topic. For now, if we present the facts of these events in a straight-forward way, without the speculation on the significance of the familial connection, I think that should be satisfactory. Also, if ever a page is created dealing with the April 25 protest directly, that may be a more appropriate forum to explore the different interpretations of the event in greater detail. I'm not attached to any particular approach. Homunculus ( duihua) 23:48, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Do you really want this to be an RfC or is this some sort of "I want to intimidate my opponents so I post an RfC that no outsider will understand"? Seriously, if you want anyone other than the usual suspects to give comment, keep it simple... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
"may", "seems", "just might". And other sources don't claim any deliberate provocation. Other sources directly blame Falun Gong for escalating the situation [2] [3]. Another one says:
"Falundafa likely became the target of Chinese authorities in 1999. On April 25, 1999 around 10,000 Falundafa believers appeared outside the Chinese leadership's Zhongnanhai compound in Beijing. Contrary to general belief, this was not a protest against the Chinese Government. It was a request for legal recognition and defense against attacks made by a physics professor He Zuoxiu. Prof. He had made a second career as a debunker of what he regarded as pseudoscience and bogus beliefs. He wrote a critique of Falundafa in the April issue of Science and Technology for Youth, an obscure Chinese magazine. The Falundafa protest was in response to this (Eckholm, 2001)." [4].
I already heard of this guy before I saw him in Falun Gong articles. Back in 1994, He Zuoxiu was already a famous skeptic, forcing the Chinese government to make a public commitment against pseudoscience and superstition, see Hongcheng_Magic_Liquid. He appears as a skeptic in 1995 in Science [5] and in May 2006 in Nature [6] (I can't read the full article). There was nothing strange or abnormal about him giving a talk against Falun gong (which was becoming popular at the time, and had a good amount of superstitious explanations for qigong).
Please remove this as speculations from less than a handful of sources, that are not supported on any actual fact. We are not going to add every conspiracy theory. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 11:12, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
But leaving aside the question of this alternative narrative, does anyone dispute that the relationship between He and Luo exists? One might disagree with what it means, or think that conspiracy theories are out of place, but it is a fact, is it not? I previously had some concerns, but the stuff from Yangzhou (and the lack of contrary evidence) put those to rest. If we don’t include the short paragraph expounding on the importance of the relationship, at a minimum I think it would be fine to note, when introducing Luo Gan, that he is related through marriage to He Zuoxiu. Given the facts, readers can come to their own conclusions.—Zujine| talk 14:48, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
This RfC is unlikely to draw much more constructive comment. As far as I can tell, no one who weighed in took the time to read the sources or analyse them. To recap this and the preceding discussion, there were a couple initial concerns that were raised about inclusion of the He/Luo connection and accompanying theory. Namely, concern about the authenticity and sourcing of the claim, the use of the Zhao article as a source for the claim, and the statement of the connection as unqualified fact. The first of these concerns has been resolved through reference to other sources (outside the Falungong context) which assert the family relationship. The second and third points were addressed early on in edits by The Sound And The Fury. There do not appear to be any further, objective problems, but only normative interpretations. About the inclusion of the collusion theory, I pointed out that this is actually a question of balance, and that Gutmann and Porter are prominent sources on Falungong whose views represent a notable perspective. No one responded to those points. I don't think that inclusion needs to be long. Can I propose that we just adopt the wording presented at the start of this RfC? It's short, well supported by the sources, and is almost certainly an improvement to what's now in the article. That way we can wrap this up. —Zujine| talk 14:52, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
If I may summarize. After two RFCs, Respected administrators User John Carter and User Silktork, as well as User IRWolfie, User AgadaUrbanit, and User Enric Naval, in addition to myself and User OhConfucius, all have voiced their opinions that the He-Luo connection does not belong. Apparently this still does not satisfy the users that continue to push for its inclusion. So in light of that, it should be clear that the references (no matter how 'diluted') must be removed. If this still does not satisfy users pushing for the reference's inclusion, then I think I have exhausted what needs to be said here. Colipon+( Talk) 19:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
There's a notice on top of this page that singles out User:Samuel Luo "and his sockpuppets" as being banned from editing this article. But Samuel is not the only one who has been sanctioned as a result of the arbitration case, even indefinitely, and it's a general Wikipedia policy that block-evading sockpuppets are banned from editing articles. Since the last time a suspected sockpuppet of Samuel Luo edited was in December 2007, I think this notice is outdated, not very useful, and should be removed. Shrigley ( talk) 00:25, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
No critics? A NRM like Scientology in China could be no controversies? Lots need to be added. The elimination, rejection, or even some disgust is not only coming from the suppression of the Chinese goverment.-- WWbread ( Open Your Mouth?) 02:56, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
[edit conflict] I just removed recent good faith additions by an editor because they relied on primary sources or no sources and didn't seem to establish notability for the claims. Can we get some good journalism or scholarship on this? I noticed these were imported from the Chinese version. The graffiti on bank notes is rather interesting--I hadn't seen this development--but it would be a good idea to have something more solid about where this fits into the broader anti-CPC scheme. UPDATE: Not a question of criticism or not, simply good sourcing etc. please take a look at wp:npov and wp:rs. Let's not get mean about things. The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 03:01, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
This article is a pretty good start, but it is still far from WP:GA pages like Plan 9 from Bell Labs. There is still a quality gap to cover. I would like to explain more clearly the placement of {{ Multiple issues}} tag for this page, with intention to encourage editors to improve the article.
I am restoring the tag to allow collaborative resolution of outstanding issues. I would request not to remove the tag again till those multiple issues are resolved via discussed consensus on this talk page. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 22:13, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
This is... unusual. Tagged because not GA? Let's look at these issues. 1) some guy writes that the article is propaganda, based on disagreeing with the stuff about organ harvesting etc.? It's unclear of the points he raised which specifically are at play. If there are substantive issues of missing or problematic content, then specifically point out which and explain in detail. The reference here is unclear. 2) is because there's one blog post by an expert on the subject, one of among four references. The source is still there (Ethan Gutmann, "How many harvested?", March 10, 2011.) but the point is already made with CQ Researcher, it appears, so we could probably easily delete that. Is this a substantive issue? 3) this discussion, which you started, is above. The last thing Hom writes is " If you have a clear, specific objection, please share it and propose an alternative." You didn't answer. This is so weird. The only specific course of action in all this would be to remove the Gutmann blog. On 1) and 3) there's nothing really to do. The tagging now is obviously just an unsubtle way to make a WP:point. You're welcome to delete the Gutmann blog reference, if you insist. Other editors may see some reason for it to stay. The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 23:21, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
If you think that a statement of fact that is supported by the Associated Press, three New York Times articles, and the U.S. World and News Report is "self-published," then you don't understand what self-published means. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Homunculus ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
Agada, the tags you added were discussed. They were found to be inapplicable; the concerns you pointed to have either already been resolved, or never existed. There is consensus that the tags you added should be removed. You are the lone dissenter, yet your dissent seems to be based solely on a misunderstanding of WP:SPS or WP:NOR (namely, your belief that a fact attributed to the New York Times and Associated Press is somehow self-published or original research).
On another note, there is no policy that dictates the use of tags. The essay WP:TAGGING does state, however, that "Anyone who sees a tag, but does not see the purported problem with the article and does not see any detailed complaint on the talk page, may remove the tag." More importantly, the essay suggests that in cases of a disagreement, editors should attempt to discuss calmly and in good faith. On multiple discussion threads, myself and others have politely and repeatedly asked you yet to identify the content issues you object to. You have responded to attempts at collaboration with escalating sarcasm, tag-bombing, and threats. I will state again: if you have a clear, specific objection or suggestion, you are welcome to share it. I am confident that any and all legitimate, constructive suggestions for the page can be considered. Homunculus ( duihua) 13:20, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
This article may be not neutral because some opinions of Chinese government are ignored. In addition, the fact that Falun gong organization involved in Chinese politics and damage the Chinese society should also be mentioned in the article.-- A20120312 ( talk) 16:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I see that an article for Chen Fuzhao was created and speedily deleted. If there isn't going to be a separate article, does he merit a mention here ? Coverage in the Chinese media can certainly be included here to give the Chinese government's side of the story and there are also these sources
I'm not very familiar with the media coverage of Chen Fuzhao in China but given that the government cited him in a letter to the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and said "In May this year Falun Gong practitioner Chen Fuzhao, of Chanan County, Zhejiang Province, misled by Li Hongzhi, put poison in the food of some beggars, leading to the deaths of 16 of them and one Buddhist", I assume they are employing the case as part of their campaign, which may be notable. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I was skeptical initially on inclusion, but Sean brought here 3 high quality major news reliable sources: BBC, Time Magazine and Reuters. Probably we could mention Chen Fuzhao in couple of sentences, while attributing carefully the information. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 19:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
I hope that observers of this page do not think that comments like those above represent an acceptable form of engagement on Wikipedia. To the contrary:
Note that User:AnAimlessRoad has been indefinitely banned from the site for abusing talk pages in this way. User 91.63.202.190 has also been blocked.—Zujine| talk 05:10, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
First three of total four paragraphs rely on the primary source: Li Hongzhi, Zhuan Falun. So I tagged the section. I would suggest to re-source using secondary references. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 21:29, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Agada, can you explain these changes? [12] I missed some primary sources in my last round of edits. I could fix those too if you pointed them out specifically. It's not super pressing, though; the presence of some primary sources, used sparingly to describe themselves, does not violate policy. You've gone and stripped them out of various sections of the article where, I believe, they were used appropriately to begin with.
In addition, you have removed all references to Zhuan Falun, even when the statements were clearly quoting Zhuan Falun, and there were other secondary sources used. Why did you feel this was necessary? You seem to believe that Wikipedia policy forbids the presence of primary sources, even when supported by others. This isn't the case.
You also requested quotations for every single item within 'teachings' where it wasn't provided in the reference. Why would you do that? I provided quotations within some of the references when they contained particularly short, quotable excerpts. Sometimes the issues are described in the course of paragraphs or several paragraphs. Sometimes I just didn't feel like adding a quote for everything. Are you going to require that every single thing in the article contains the quotation within the reference? I just don't understand what you're trying to do. If there is a particular item that you're not sure about, you can ask me on the talk page to give you a quotation.
In addition, you removed a very salient, germane image by saying it was unrelated. You also replaced an image that had been removed, noting in edit summary that removal hadn't been explained. Removal actually was explained. The image illustrated a sub-topic of Falun Gong—a 'Tuidang' protest in Hong Kong. The caption was also full of grammatical and spelling errors.
You also removed a large paragraph of densely sourced material about Falun Gong's demography in the 1990s. You said this was original synthesis. Could you explain why? This paragraph was proposed to you months ago. I asked repeatedly for your feedback on it before putting on the page. You have never explained where you think the problem is. Homunculus ( duihua) 12:21, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
The page of the reference should be noted as a matter of course, in the citation. Homunculus is under no obligation to provide you with a copy of the pages from the books if that is what you are suggesting. I'm not sure what scenario is being imagined, that he scan them and email them to you? That would probably violate copyright law. Verify them by buying them or going to a major library in your city.
On to the primary source policy. Here are some lines from it Wikipedia:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources:
Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages... A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source.
I think it's a good idea to make sure this section has better sources. But deleting the line [13] "Falun Gong exercises can be practiced individually or in group settings, and can be performed for varying lengths of time in accordance with the needs and abilities of the individual practitioner." seems a bit strange, doesn't it? This is not a controversial claim (i.e., it is true of many activities.) Nor have the reasons that no primary sources be used in a section that is about Falun Gong's teachings been properly discussed. I can see the need for controversial claims or unique interpretations, but for straightforward facts like that above, what is the problem with a primary citation?
Thus, the wholesale removal of these primary sources appears to me inappropriate. And I also note AU's removal of the figures, among all these deleting actions: [14].
Numbered below are the actions I am going to take. If there are any points disputed, use the number to refer to it and explain why. No particular order.
Attention:
Wikipedia's
Reliable Sources guideline demands that articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted
primary-source material for themselves.Articles should be based on reliable secondary sources. Wikipedians should not rely on, or try to interpret the content or importance of, primary sources, such as the websites of the Sai Baba movement or its critics. |
I've noticed following editnotice on Sathya Sai Baba page, maybe we could substitute in that message Sai Baba with Li Hongzhi/Falun Gong and utilize this message here. Just a thought. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 15:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Yes. I know. The page does include quotes from Li Hongzhi. The quotes selected are those that are also quoted in high quality secondary sources, which is why they now have both the primary and secondary sources attached to them. I did not want this section to get cluttered with in-text citations to this or that scholar; instead it is a more or less unadulterated representation of the moral precepts and understandings that all the major scholars agree compose Falun Gong's core beliefs. In select cases where the secondary sources quote Li, I incorporated some of those quotes. As to the use of faluninfo, clearwisdom, and clearharmony, I recommend that the latter two should be treated as primary sources. Faluninfo is in a slightly different category (I tend to think of it as the equivalent of the International Campaign for Tibet); it is frequently cited in academic works (so is clearwisdom, actually, but cautiously), and by NGOs, human rights groups, and governments. I'm pretty sure it's what David Ownby was referring to when he spoke of Falun Gong publications that are generally considered trustworthy in these communities. I still think that this source should be used sparingly, and in-text citations can be provided when circumstances call for it. As to the other two, Wikipedia permits the use of primary sources as sources about themselves, but they should be used with all the caveats that normally apply to primary sources. From the lists you provided, it appears that these sources almost never appear on Wikipedia pages (though there are a number of talk page links to clearwisdom). What is the value of this exercise? Homunculus ( duihua) 00:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. You may remove any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source. Whether and how quickly removal should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step.[2] Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. It has always been good practice to try to find and cite supporting sources yourself. Do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living people; you should also be aware of how the BLP policy applies to groups.[3]
In the 'classification' section, I saw that an editor removed [22] a discussion of whether falungong meets the definition of a 'sect.' The edit summary suggested content violated WP:PARAPHRASE, but I don't see how. WP:PARAPHRASE is meant to prevent subtle copyright violations that take the form of very close paraphrasing. The deleted content didn't seem to have that problem. It was unsourced, but sources could easily be found and added. On a related note, I think this section could also use an expanded discussion of the 'religion' classification, especially in terms of the Chinese conceptualisation of religion (I think Penny and Ownby have written on this. I'll try to find what I'm thinking of).—Zujine| talk 05:18, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
The question remains as to how many Falun Gong practitioners were persecuted to death. I have a gut feeling that the number is around 800-1000 from July 1999 until now. Also, the claim that half of all people sentenced to reeducation through labor are FLG practitioners are without solid evidence. Why are there so few sympathizers of the FLG movement inside mainland China from the Tiananmen incident in 2001 to the Bo Xilai incident this year? I wonder that given all the people released from RTL throughout the years, the number of sympathizers should ideally be quite high, especially in today's Weibo/Twitter era. Yet even mainstream dissidents in China have rarely spoken out on behalf of the FLG movement. The fact that there is a dramatic reduction in the number of FLG practitioners in mainland China might not pinpoint to an actual reduction. It could be that there is only a dramatic reduction in the number of FLG practitioners in PUBLIC in mainland China. For people accusing of me of trying to whitewash a crime, well, I am not defending the CPC persecution of FLG or any of its other crimes. For this matter, I am only trying to objectively determine the true death toll related to FLG in China. It is just too obvious that the 5-figures number is wrong. Now I am throwing into doubt the 4-figures number. Is it possible to find ANY source out there that agrees with my number? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.244.24.47 ( talk) 10:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
First, I added the Falun Gong portal at the bottom; I don't know why it wouldn't be there and many of those pages are not referenced elsewhere in this article. If someone reverts, please explain, I'd like to understand the reasoning so I do not make the same mistake again. Second, I came to this page for information about the claims of organ harvesting, one of the most important issues surrounding this organization, true or not. It is the main topic of many of the external references and covered in other articles on WP not linked to from this one, but not mentioned here. Why not? Also, after posting this, will I be banned from entering the PRC? 65.217.137.4 ( talk) 22:21, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
here from gao zhisheng page but regarding organ harvesting im not sure why we would haev ALLEGATIONS rather than FACTS about sthing so serious? i read the policy and wikipedia said it should be VERIFIABLE and such claims are difficult to verify if not impossible. not saying i dont believe it. just sayin' Happy monsoon day
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Falun Gong's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "ctvJuly06":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC) um so how do we fix this error?
confusing part
Falun Gong has been described as highly centralized in the sense that neither spiritual nor practical authority is dispersed; local branches and assistants are afforded no special rights or titles; "assistants" or volunteer "contact persons" do not hold authority over other practitioners, regardless of how long they have practiced Falun Gong.[94][95]
1)what is the connection between these two things i.e. highly centralized in the sense that neither spiritual nor practical authority is dispersed and then the part about local branches and assistants. these seem unrelated. 2)what is the source for highly centralized it seems made up or contradicts things id read elsewhere about the group. ne1 care to explain or i may change this. i thought there was not actually a centralized organization at all. Happy monsoon day —Preceding undated comment added 00:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
yeah no problem i can access journal articles and stuff. im actually familiar with the group and the struggle in china so ill check out burgdoff and fix this part up [at some point not sure when but soonish] Happy monsoon day —Preceding undated comment added 01:58, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
delled this sentence with no source Surveys in China from the 1990s found that between 23% - 40% of practitioners held university degrees at the college or graduate level—several times higher than the general population. citation needed Happy monsoon day
The discussion on citations brought up a good point. I'd like to take on a the task of cleaning up all the references and standardising the format. I'll do a deeper review and discuss further, but I wanted to give a heads up so that there isn't a duplication of efforts. It will be a tedious task so I don't want anyone to waste time. —Zujine| talk 06:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
The article that showed US embassies had visited the alleged camp on two occasions was removed at some point. I've added back in. Feel free to make a better edit if you like. Bobby fletcher ( talk) 23:37, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
After reading this article, I think it's really good that this article include many academic references. However, I think something like opinion of Chinese opinion is ignored. When the article tells that Chinese government stops Falun Gong in China, the article didn't include the reason about why Chinese government did this. In fact, the Chinese government announced that Falun Gong did some illegal things. But this didn't be written. This may give people the opinion that the Chinese government stops it just because of tight relationship between the government and Falun Gong. This is unfair and is harmful to the neutrality. I think this kind of information should be included. I'm new in English Wikipedia and English is not my native language. So I think it may be better to start a discussion with everyone. Welcome to join it!-- A20120312 ( talk) 11:06, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
This article seems to do what a lot of articles seem to do when it comes to Marxism-Leninism, etc, in that it doesn't really separate the actual ideology itself from the post-Mao government's warping of it. The Deng legacy's authoritarianism and capitalism is counter to socialism and Marxism-Leninism. 96.41.152.155 ( talk) 01:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
The onus of showing notability is on the editor wishing to add information. If "Fazhengnian" is notable, please provide some detailed academic discussion on it - not vague references to Ghits. If there is some thorough academic discussion on the topic, like there is about everything else on this page, then I think we're fine. Primary sources are not the basis for establishing notability. TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 15:28, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
can someone help me out on the photos here. i notice the photo of ethan gutmann a researcher was recently deleted; it was a photograph that was taken by epoch times. woudl not that newspaper simply give us the photographs if they knew they could be useful and illustrative of the subject on wikipedia? if so can anyone point me in the direction I go about that? I would be happy to email them to request for them to sign over the rights to public domain or something creative commons. has anyone tried this? Happy monsoon day 20:35, 14 September 2012 (UTC)