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I have started an RfC on this user's conduct. He has now again restored and deleted content that is going through tedious discussion above, even after being reverted. This kind of behaviour should not fly. More details are in the RfC. -- Asdfg 12345 01:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't raise the issue here if this were an isolated incident. I see that it is not exactly Falun Gong related pages alone that the user targets but material pertinent to human rights violations by the CCP. Here, for instance, the user blanks 12 paragraphs of well sourced and centrally relevant content with a sneaky comment "rv pov material." Here, again with no edit summary or talk comments, a paragraph disappears: [1]. And in this edit dated March 1st, several paragraphs are blanked with a similar comment - "pov cleanup." I believe this edit/blanking [2] would need more explanation than a "questionable sources removed" comment - and, hence, am restoring the content.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 14:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I seek explanation for the following three edits:
I assume the three edits were made by PCPP. I would appreciate an explanation of the changes in terminology and the deletions of some parts of the text. Thank you. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 14:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
By the way, I left a remark above asking for the sources for certain comments attributed to Ostergaard. I checked the pages referenced and could not find the material cited. As I brought one of those up twice, and several days ago, I think it is fair that the information now be removed until a source be found. I will make an edit to do that. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 03:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
A) The Burgdoff comment was placed right under Kavan's criticism of FLG, and is used in a sense to dismiss Kavan's claims. I've placed it in a more appropriate section with other comments more supportive of FLG. The FLG statement itself is a pointless addition used as a rhetoric, when in fact FLG's position has already been made in the introduction and leading paragraphs. The quote is excessive and the previous sentence already outlined his position
B) Per words to avoid, these terminology carries negative connections, and should be replaced or rephrased with more neutral words, unless they're actually quoted from the source.
C) Ditto -- PCPP ( talk) 05:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your explanation. I find the changes in "A" fairly reasonable. Regarding B and C, the words "propaganda" or "regime" don't appear among the words to avoid. That mostly appears to be reserved for other issues. I left a note on the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, and the message I get is that these words do not need to be strictly placed inside quotation marks whenever they appear, but they should not appear in the Wikipedia voice, and should be cited with a source attributed. I believe the section in question cites the relevant sources, and uses terms like "writes X" and "according to Y" when appropriate.-- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 15:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I have some questions about the page in its current form:
Thanks! ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 13:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
One small item: the source cited for this statement "Within the first month of the crackdown, 300-400 articles attacking Falun Gong appeared in each of the main state-run papers, while primetime television replayed alleged exposés on the group, with no divergent views aired in the media." is actually a Falun Gong member. I looked up his profile and he has published several articles extolling Falun Gong online [7]. I wonder whether using this as a source is appropriate. On the other hand, what he says is probably not disputed either. This may be a grey area.
Olaf, I have read some of the conflict surrounding this. It's too banal to read too much. You are no angel yourself, from what I can tell. I think our focus now should be on energetic discussion of the article rather than derogatory or other remarks about individuals. Wikipedia seems to have a latent tendency for the latter, whereas we should strive for the former. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 00:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I have renamed the "The 'cult' label" section to "Categorisation" and rewritten some parts of it. My reasons for doing so are to allow the debate to be more inclusive and broader. I have also noted some of the previous discussion above which appears to demonstrate how that label does not have currency among scholars dealing with Falun Gong (Ownby's also gives this impression). Rather than having a section devoted to debating something that is only one part of the wider issue of how Falun Gong is to be categorised, I thought it would be wise to simply expand the potential of that section. The variety of ways that Falun Gong has been categorised would then have a chance to be discussed. It is also an attempt to get away from the CCP/Falun Gong polemics of "cult/not-cult," and perhaps provide a more informed and meaningful discussion to the reader, rather than only directly competing views. Different things can be true at the same time. I was somewhat inspired by the essay on being bold: [8]; so I decided to try my hand. I would be very pleased to discuss how this section could be improved further, or to know if I have made a grave error. Olaf Stephanos, thank you for the note on "practitioners," I will consider adopting this term (I concede that Ownby and Tong seem to). Might you be too sensitive with regard to the word "proseltyzing," though? It may not have a specific source, but is this not what Falun Gong practitioners do? -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 03:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
What was the policy based reasoning behind using the word 'Resistance' as a section heading to describe Falun Gong's response to the actions of the gov of China ? This strikes me as an unusual approach in a wiki article. We don't normally accept one sides narrative and label things as resistance do we ? I'm thinking of other situations where an organization has been declared illegal by one or more governments and 'resists' according to their own narrative e.g. many terrorist groups. Would 'Response' be more neutral ? Sean.hoyland - talk 03:31, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Since the ban was issued in July, 1999, falun gong has kept up an underground campaign of resistance. Some followers have used the Internet to distribute messages protesting against the ban and trumpeting the virtues of their movement, which preaches ethical living and good health through meditation and breathing exercises.
The young Murdoch -- a college dropout, now CEO of his father's Hong Kong-based Star TV company -- gave an impressive, almost balletic, performance of the genuflectory arts last week at the Milken Institute. In words that astonished those gathered for the institute's annual business conference, James Murdoch, all of 28 years, lit into the Falun Gong religious resistance movement in China, describing it as a "dangerous" and "apocalyptic cult," which "clearly does not have the success of China at heart."
It leads one academic source to state that he wishes to examine Falun Gong in terms of a religious movement: that the "fanaticism" of practitioners is a resilient and resisting expression of faith inherent to the type of movement. "Its public expression reflects the urban and text based nature of the movement, which more or less prescribes this form of visible resistance.
In sum, Falun Gong represents not only a mass revolt against governmental control in the PRC, but also a resistance "with Chinese characteristics" against the dominant Western mode of "religious freedom." The Falun Gong debate calls into question international standards and the human-rights based ideology. Until the tension between religious belief and its manifestation can be satisfactorily resolved, we will continue to witness state manipulation of freedom of religion in order to subvert religious groups.
I think the term is explanatory, since it is a response of resistance. Could be wrong. -- Asdfg 12345 03:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
But I must then pose the rejoinder: if it could be shown that the Falun Gong's efforts in China are seen as legitimate by many reliable sources, then would the term be appropriate? I'm not about to spend time on finding that out, but as an intellectual exercise I am curious about whether it swings both ways. The secondary question is what would count as 'enough sources' to be able to assert that the Falun Gong's efforts were seen in this or that way. But it may be easier to just go with 'response.' The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 09:39, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
By the way, some recent news here. I'd suggest this is relevant for the page. -- Asdfg 12345 05:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
The following section has poor WP:V compliance as far as I can tell. I've fixed the "dangerous" ref and replaced the redundant "human" ref so that they both point at the same thing and to allow readers to access the HRW report and read it for themselves.
I'm not sure the report supports the first sentence. HRW don't use terminology like 'ruling elite' in their reports. There is a sentence on page 12 that says "According to a Falungong spokesman, until then “the government had been mostly supportive of us... Many top leaders seemed to support us.” That is not HRW speaking. The rest of the section has no refs. This seems like a problem.
Sean.hoyland - talk 11:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I added a source for the 'most persecuted' statement. I have left the other changes except one, because this isn't a subject I want to get into. I notice above that nothing was said in response to Asdfg12345's list of sources which use the term 'resistance'. The only other change I made was to rename the subheading 'persecution'. After looking at the background and RfC of the user who changed it, and noting there is an article titled 'Persecution of Falun Gong', I don't expect this to be problematic. If the individual in question disputes 'persecution' as a subheading, he or she should note such below. Zujine ( talk) 12:52, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
This will be my last input for now. No clear reason has been raised for why 'persecution' as a subheading is inadequate. Zujine ( talk) 01:01, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
My view is that the term is not controversial, and nor does it bow to political sensibilities; it merely reflects a common usage among scholars and HR researchers on this issue. It is clearly not the only term used, but there is currently a page of that title. Attempting to skirt around that fact with euphemistic expressions seems unnecessary.
I suspect this debate has been had a number of times before. Regarding the prevalence of the term, I would leave it to some other editors to assert. The real issue is a matter of what that page is called. While it's called 'persecution' I will support this article reflecting that. Apart from that, I mostly agree with Colipon's remarks. Zujine ( talk) 02:47, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I have a few remarks regarding the Controversies section. For starters, the sentence "The principal controversies are its views on homosexuality and inter-racial children, and its claims of superpowers" was referenced to [11] and [12]. However, neither of these sources say that those are the "principal controversies". The first gives some quotes from Li Hongzhi's teachings; the second talks about how some people perceived parts of Falun Gong's teachings as "homophobic". Neither explain how those beliefs fit into the corpus of teachings as whole, how relevant they are, or how significant they are.
The next paragraph begins "Quoting Li, the New York Times said...". Li, however, does not state this in that lecture. Rather than getting into the absurdities of matching sources, representing the view that Craig Smith's view is disputed, and all that jazz, this can be fixed by simply finding another source. Ownby can be used to represent Falun Gong's teachings on interraciality. This cuts right to the best source on the subject, while maintaining mention of it (which seems to have become highly important for certain editors). In that sense, I don't seek to delete it, but merely make it respectable and put it in context. The reader should be presented with something that actually explains what practitioners believe, rather than something that is aimed at playing to the reader's stereotypes and that deliberately makes use of inaccurate referencing.
Given that the sentence "The principal controversies..." is a synthesis, I will simply remove it. I don't think any meaning is lost by doing so, because the "controversies" are still represented, and it is implicit that they are controversial.
Secondly, I have replaced Craig Smith's assessment with Ownby's. David Ownby is a much better source, avoids the obvious inaccuracy, fixes the undue weight issue (Ownby devotes a single line to the interracial issue in a book of over 200 pages), and provides the context that was otherwise missing.
I'm looking forward to some constructive discussion. Thanks. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 23:33, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I added some information from three different reputable sources: Patricia Thornton, Mark Palmer, and Fewsmith & Wright. I'm looking forward to a good encyclopedic rewrite of these sections; I urge other editors to take part in it. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 00:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Fewsmith has been in the China studies game for a looong time, so he's a damn good source. I haven't read much of Wright, but I checked out a bibliography in a book and he has obvious credentials. Compared to some stuff in this document that has no sources at all, the above seems warranted - to me at least.
But after reading through this article and a few of the others, I think Colipon is spot on: there's too much detail on minor issues here already. But I don't agree that the insertions currently under discussion are about minor issues, or are too detailed. And Wright and Fewsmith are certainly not a "propaganda" source as Martin Rundvist says. Homunculus ( duihua) 15:25, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I tried to initiate discussion about these matters before, but nobody seemed to take it seriously enough.
Any comments? ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:25, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a placeholder for any and all discussion related to all the removals and summaries I just made. This had been discussed on a few of the related pages (like the history page), and I thought I'd just go ahead and do it. Sometimes I simply removed things for later use elsewhere; other times I just trimmed, summarised, or combined.
Previously I have provided tedious explanations for each change, but in this case will opt for a less structured one: I just thought it would help. There was a lot of specific information about issues that aren't very important, and a great deal of verbosity, elaboration, and repetition. If the page is too long it becomes unhelpful to readers. If anyone misses anything let's discuss the value of it here. The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 13:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I object to some of the recent changes by PCPP. Here's why:
✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 22:40, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
To Zujine, I find it pretty hypoccritical for my edits to be singled out when I only changed several wordings. You seemed to have no problem with Olaf himself adding the material in the first place, especially this edit, where he claimed to have "fixed" the leads's "partisan wording" [13], amongst others [14]. -- PCPP ( talk) 15:09, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
IMHO, Chinese government is more neutral than Chinese Communist Party. It is also more accurate.-- Edward130603 ( talk) 14:10, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
This requires an objective analysis of sources. When the protest is described, how is it most commonly described? peaceful? silent? Or perhaps without an adjective. There may be other factors. Assertions without basis may bring trouble, as Sean_hoyland notes.
David Palmer uses 'peaceful' three times to describe Falungong protests in his book:
David Ownby uses it four times:
David Palmer uses "silent" once to describe the protest:
David Ownby uses "silent" three times:
This brief search of two sources indicates that 'peaceful' is used more commonly than 'silent' to characterise Falungong's Zhongnanhai protest. For a more definitive answer further research would be required. Based on the above I would suggest the word on Wikipedia be 'peaceful.' Regarding CCP/Chinese government, David Palmer uses 'CCP' 78 times, 'party' 176 times, 'regime' 22 times, and 'Chinese government' 4 times. Surprisingly, David Ownby uses 'Chinese government' 43 times, 'regime' 20 times, 'party' (as in 'Chinese Communist Party') 102 times, and the acronym 'CCP' only once. From this, I would suggest using CCP or 'Party'. I would also note that I have read dozens of books on Chinese politics, and CCP is the default term. Homunculus ( duihua) 13:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Human Rights in Contemporary China By R. Randle Edwards, Louis Henkin, Andrew J. Nathan
CCP: 11
Communist party: 40
Party: 75
Government: over 100
People's republic of china: 27
PRC: 42
A search for the term "China" would not be possible here because of the false positives.
The discourse of human rights in China: historical and ideological perspectives By Robert Weatherley
Chinese government: 55
Communist party: 11
Party: 46
PRC: 32
CCP: 21
China, the United Nations, and human rights: the limits of compliance By Ann E. Kent
Communist party: 15
Party: 55
CCP: 9
PRC: 17
people's republic of china: 46
Chinese government: over 100
Bridging the global divide on human rights: a Canada-China dialogue By Errol Mendes, Anik Lalonde-Roussy
communist party: 35
CCP:2
PRC:5
people's republic of china: 13
Chinese government: 57
Party: 71
Falun Gong's challenge to China: spiritual practice or "evil cult"? : a ... By Danny Schechter
Chinese government: over 100 times
CCP:22
Communist party: 59
Party: 88
PRC: 9
people's republic of china: 19
"Party" alone would reasonably generate a good amount of false positives, as would "governement" by itself. It appears that CCP is not the default. Per above, I would strongly recommend Chinese government or China.-- Edward130603 ( talk) 23:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
But if we wanted to be precise, and I think we do want that, it would be more precise to say that the Party, or the CCP, made the decision to persecute Falun Gong. The propaganda campaign at the beginning of the persecution also makes it clear that this was a very 'personal' issue for the CCP, if it could be put that way. Falun Gong was said to have explicitly challenged the CCP, and it received a clear and sharp response ("Falun Gong is a political force opposed to the Communist Party of China and the central government" [15]) . In the CCP's own lexicon, often the persecution is referred to as a struggle between the Party and Falun Gong. I think that Edward130603 and PCPP's concern is that by using CCP it may seem somehow biased, or delegitimising to the CCP. I don't think that is the case.
The distinction between the party/government is partly borne out by, for example, the notes of Ken Lieberthal, who writes (p. 158 of the first edition of 'Governing China': "...the Chinese system is divided into three nationwide bureaucratic hierarchies--the party, the government, and the military.")
In Saich's 2003 'Governance and Politics of China', p. 112, we are told: "The reforms have changed the role of the CCP in significant ways even as it retains its all-powerful role in the system and is willing to crush any potential opposition. This was shown most clearly in the crushing of the student-led demonstrations of 1989..." It is this same impetus of challenge and response behind the crushing of Falun Gong. That is an attitude particular to the Chinese Communist Party, and using the term 'government' would be quite diffuse.
Another example is David Shambaugh's book 'China's Communist Party: atrophy and adaptation'. This is among the most recent scholarship from among the most distinguished of China scholars. From what I can tell, the term 'Chinese government' appears 45 times [16], and CCP appears 100 times [17]. Shambaugh is also quite explicit in addressing the fact that the CCP is a Leninist party that penetrates and dominates society (p. 127). Thus, the aspect that states this, without overstating it, is important for newcomers to the whole discussion of contemporary China and its political rifts. Using a term like 'China' or 'Chinese government' obscures the fact that China is still very much run by a Communist Party, adopting a Leninist organisational structure, that makes all the important decisions. And in particular, when it comes to something of such political sensitivity and significance as the repression of the Falun Gong, the CCP was firmly in charge, the decision coming directly from the Standing Committee. The government then carried out those executive orders, through the education system, the policing system, in state-owned enterprises, and everywhere else that Falun Gong was to be rooted out.
Thus, I think CCP/the Party is more precise language, and more suitable to addressing the decision to defame and persecute Falun Gong. In other places, it may be more appropriate to use 'Chinese government', depending on what was being discussed.
I might also note that I think the level of disputation happening here is surprising to me. Simple terms like persecution, regime, propaganda, Party etc. are routinely challenged, even though they are routinely (though, indeed, not singularly) used by scholars of Chinese politics and of the Chinese Communist Party. On the one hand, I suppose it's good to make sure Wikipedia is carrying forward the highest standards of scholarship. On the other, in some of these disputes one must wonder whether it's a waste of time to wring hands over these issues, and precisely whose interest is being served by changing these commonly accepted terms into ones considered more palatable by some - not that of the readers, in my estimate. But changing the discussion from 'the CCP persecuting Falun Gong' to 'the Chinese government banning Falun Gong' is a significant one, so I have given my input on why I think it is important that the debate stay centered on the proper terminology and mode of discourse to refer to the actors and actions in this conflagration. The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 03:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I have read TheSound's greatly informative piece on how to distinguish the CCP and the government. Strictly speaking in a Communist state, there is not that much difference. Most party organs have parallel bodies in the state. Thus the term "party-state". However, I am not certain that in the intro "The CCP banned..." is appropriate. The ban came on orders from Jiang, apparently, and was undoubtedly carried out by legislative and executive government authorities - i.e. the State Council, the NPC, etc. The suppression afterwards was more or less carried out through the party apparatus - as party members had to "Pledge" to get rid of Falun Gong - while ordinary members of government (who were not party members) did not have this requirement (to my knowledge). Thus I have modified one reference to the CCP in the lead. I am not certain that the "CCP declared Falun Gong to be a cult" to be appropriate either. Again, this 'declaration', to my knowledge, came out of government documents, not CCP documents. Colipon+( Talk) 14:06, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm just going to copy some instances here to show that this is not inconsistent with sources, as claimed. I just want to tackle that claim head on. My overall point has been that it is one of the words used, and it's the word that has been chosen by the wikipedia community to describe it, as shown by the page with that name, named that way for years. And here's some evidence from the sources (some are just randomly taken from that other page, a lot from JN466). The following is presented messily, and I apologise for that. This isn't a scientific analysis, but I just need to quickly dispel the idea that the word is inconsistent with the sources. It is one of a number of acceptable terms. It has been the word used for the page for a long time. The persecution is acknowledged and regarded as such by third parties, and is not a mere set of allegations from Falun Gong. -- Asdfg 12345 08:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
There are literally hundreds of third-party news sources using the term. Examples:
A Google scholar search:
Persecution yielded 1250 results
Crackdown yielded 1360 results
Suppression yielded 1350 results
So there is no definite concensus on the usage of the term. Falun Gong and its umbrella organizations such as the WOIPFG and CIPFG uses the term "persecution" exclusively, while the Chinese government refers to it as "取缔" which means ban.-- PCPP ( talk) 10:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Some words may be used to label a group from an outside perspective, even though these words are used in accordance with a dictionary definition...Such terms, even when accurate, often convey to readers an implied viewpoint: that of outsiders looking in and labeling as they see it. The fact that a term is accepted "outside" but not "inside" is a good indicator that it may not be neutral...There are at least three ways to deal with this: attribute the term to reliable sources; replace the label with information; or use a more neutral term.
-- PCPP ( talk) 11:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Some of the abuses that Falun Gong practitioners have been subject to in Mainland China are widely documented by third-party groups, especially human rights organizations. These should be presented in the article and given its due weight. I am curious to know, however, that since the initial crackdown of Falun Gong, how much more of this "persecution" is actually directed against Falun Gong in specific, and how much of it is directed against all qigong groups, all the groups that are considered 'heretical sects', or all the groups that oppose the Chinese gov't in general. Organ Harvesting is a case in point. You had two clueless Canadian politicians commissioned by Falun Gong going to "investigate" the allegations, and then Falun Gong jumping on it as a "third party corroboration" that the organ harvesting is occurring on a grand scale, and targeted specifically to Falun Gong. If this is not an "allegation", I don't know what is. Even Harry Wu, an expert on organ harvesting, and the first one to bring light to the issue and lambaste the Chinese government, severely criticized the Kilgour-Matas Reports.
Heather Kavan has a good piece detailing Falun Gong's deception tactics in its media outlets - outlining how it has managed its public relations war against the Chinese government. One of Kavan's points, which is echoed by Human Rights Watch, is that there is no doubt Falun Gong practitioners are being treated badly by the Chinese government, and subject to a wide range of abuses. But the scale and the magnitude of these abuses have been vastly exaggerated or twisted by Falun Gong to earn itself legitimacy amongst Western governments and people. Another reason for the Falun Gong 'counter-propaganda' is because the group has been slandered badly by the Chinese government, and, because it belongs to a similar culture of discourse, attacks the Chinese government back with even more slander. Both Kavan and HRW are careful in saying that they endorse neither Falun Gong nor the Chinese government's story, but conclude that regardless of what kind of deceptive products have come out of these media wars, people should not be persecuted just because they have a different belief system. These views of Kavan and Human Rights Watch sum up my position as well. Colipon+( Talk) 14:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 |
I have started an RfC on this user's conduct. He has now again restored and deleted content that is going through tedious discussion above, even after being reverted. This kind of behaviour should not fly. More details are in the RfC. -- Asdfg 12345 01:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't raise the issue here if this were an isolated incident. I see that it is not exactly Falun Gong related pages alone that the user targets but material pertinent to human rights violations by the CCP. Here, for instance, the user blanks 12 paragraphs of well sourced and centrally relevant content with a sneaky comment "rv pov material." Here, again with no edit summary or talk comments, a paragraph disappears: [1]. And in this edit dated March 1st, several paragraphs are blanked with a similar comment - "pov cleanup." I believe this edit/blanking [2] would need more explanation than a "questionable sources removed" comment - and, hence, am restoring the content.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 14:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I seek explanation for the following three edits:
I assume the three edits were made by PCPP. I would appreciate an explanation of the changes in terminology and the deletions of some parts of the text. Thank you. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 14:24, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
By the way, I left a remark above asking for the sources for certain comments attributed to Ostergaard. I checked the pages referenced and could not find the material cited. As I brought one of those up twice, and several days ago, I think it is fair that the information now be removed until a source be found. I will make an edit to do that. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 03:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
A) The Burgdoff comment was placed right under Kavan's criticism of FLG, and is used in a sense to dismiss Kavan's claims. I've placed it in a more appropriate section with other comments more supportive of FLG. The FLG statement itself is a pointless addition used as a rhetoric, when in fact FLG's position has already been made in the introduction and leading paragraphs. The quote is excessive and the previous sentence already outlined his position
B) Per words to avoid, these terminology carries negative connections, and should be replaced or rephrased with more neutral words, unless they're actually quoted from the source.
C) Ditto -- PCPP ( talk) 05:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your explanation. I find the changes in "A" fairly reasonable. Regarding B and C, the words "propaganda" or "regime" don't appear among the words to avoid. That mostly appears to be reserved for other issues. I left a note on the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard, and the message I get is that these words do not need to be strictly placed inside quotation marks whenever they appear, but they should not appear in the Wikipedia voice, and should be cited with a source attributed. I believe the section in question cites the relevant sources, and uses terms like "writes X" and "according to Y" when appropriate.-- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 15:08, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
I have some questions about the page in its current form:
Thanks! ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 13:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
One small item: the source cited for this statement "Within the first month of the crackdown, 300-400 articles attacking Falun Gong appeared in each of the main state-run papers, while primetime television replayed alleged exposés on the group, with no divergent views aired in the media." is actually a Falun Gong member. I looked up his profile and he has published several articles extolling Falun Gong online [7]. I wonder whether using this as a source is appropriate. On the other hand, what he says is probably not disputed either. This may be a grey area.
Olaf, I have read some of the conflict surrounding this. It's too banal to read too much. You are no angel yourself, from what I can tell. I think our focus now should be on energetic discussion of the article rather than derogatory or other remarks about individuals. Wikipedia seems to have a latent tendency for the latter, whereas we should strive for the former. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 00:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I have renamed the "The 'cult' label" section to "Categorisation" and rewritten some parts of it. My reasons for doing so are to allow the debate to be more inclusive and broader. I have also noted some of the previous discussion above which appears to demonstrate how that label does not have currency among scholars dealing with Falun Gong (Ownby's also gives this impression). Rather than having a section devoted to debating something that is only one part of the wider issue of how Falun Gong is to be categorised, I thought it would be wise to simply expand the potential of that section. The variety of ways that Falun Gong has been categorised would then have a chance to be discussed. It is also an attempt to get away from the CCP/Falun Gong polemics of "cult/not-cult," and perhaps provide a more informed and meaningful discussion to the reader, rather than only directly competing views. Different things can be true at the same time. I was somewhat inspired by the essay on being bold: [8]; so I decided to try my hand. I would be very pleased to discuss how this section could be improved further, or to know if I have made a grave error. Olaf Stephanos, thank you for the note on "practitioners," I will consider adopting this term (I concede that Ownby and Tong seem to). Might you be too sensitive with regard to the word "proseltyzing," though? It may not have a specific source, but is this not what Falun Gong practitioners do? -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 03:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
What was the policy based reasoning behind using the word 'Resistance' as a section heading to describe Falun Gong's response to the actions of the gov of China ? This strikes me as an unusual approach in a wiki article. We don't normally accept one sides narrative and label things as resistance do we ? I'm thinking of other situations where an organization has been declared illegal by one or more governments and 'resists' according to their own narrative e.g. many terrorist groups. Would 'Response' be more neutral ? Sean.hoyland - talk 03:31, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Since the ban was issued in July, 1999, falun gong has kept up an underground campaign of resistance. Some followers have used the Internet to distribute messages protesting against the ban and trumpeting the virtues of their movement, which preaches ethical living and good health through meditation and breathing exercises.
The young Murdoch -- a college dropout, now CEO of his father's Hong Kong-based Star TV company -- gave an impressive, almost balletic, performance of the genuflectory arts last week at the Milken Institute. In words that astonished those gathered for the institute's annual business conference, James Murdoch, all of 28 years, lit into the Falun Gong religious resistance movement in China, describing it as a "dangerous" and "apocalyptic cult," which "clearly does not have the success of China at heart."
It leads one academic source to state that he wishes to examine Falun Gong in terms of a religious movement: that the "fanaticism" of practitioners is a resilient and resisting expression of faith inherent to the type of movement. "Its public expression reflects the urban and text based nature of the movement, which more or less prescribes this form of visible resistance.
In sum, Falun Gong represents not only a mass revolt against governmental control in the PRC, but also a resistance "with Chinese characteristics" against the dominant Western mode of "religious freedom." The Falun Gong debate calls into question international standards and the human-rights based ideology. Until the tension between religious belief and its manifestation can be satisfactorily resolved, we will continue to witness state manipulation of freedom of religion in order to subvert religious groups.
I think the term is explanatory, since it is a response of resistance. Could be wrong. -- Asdfg 12345 03:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
But I must then pose the rejoinder: if it could be shown that the Falun Gong's efforts in China are seen as legitimate by many reliable sources, then would the term be appropriate? I'm not about to spend time on finding that out, but as an intellectual exercise I am curious about whether it swings both ways. The secondary question is what would count as 'enough sources' to be able to assert that the Falun Gong's efforts were seen in this or that way. But it may be easier to just go with 'response.' The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 09:39, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
By the way, some recent news here. I'd suggest this is relevant for the page. -- Asdfg 12345 05:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
The following section has poor WP:V compliance as far as I can tell. I've fixed the "dangerous" ref and replaced the redundant "human" ref so that they both point at the same thing and to allow readers to access the HRW report and read it for themselves.
I'm not sure the report supports the first sentence. HRW don't use terminology like 'ruling elite' in their reports. There is a sentence on page 12 that says "According to a Falungong spokesman, until then “the government had been mostly supportive of us... Many top leaders seemed to support us.” That is not HRW speaking. The rest of the section has no refs. This seems like a problem.
Sean.hoyland - talk 11:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I added a source for the 'most persecuted' statement. I have left the other changes except one, because this isn't a subject I want to get into. I notice above that nothing was said in response to Asdfg12345's list of sources which use the term 'resistance'. The only other change I made was to rename the subheading 'persecution'. After looking at the background and RfC of the user who changed it, and noting there is an article titled 'Persecution of Falun Gong', I don't expect this to be problematic. If the individual in question disputes 'persecution' as a subheading, he or she should note such below. Zujine ( talk) 12:52, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
This will be my last input for now. No clear reason has been raised for why 'persecution' as a subheading is inadequate. Zujine ( talk) 01:01, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
My view is that the term is not controversial, and nor does it bow to political sensibilities; it merely reflects a common usage among scholars and HR researchers on this issue. It is clearly not the only term used, but there is currently a page of that title. Attempting to skirt around that fact with euphemistic expressions seems unnecessary.
I suspect this debate has been had a number of times before. Regarding the prevalence of the term, I would leave it to some other editors to assert. The real issue is a matter of what that page is called. While it's called 'persecution' I will support this article reflecting that. Apart from that, I mostly agree with Colipon's remarks. Zujine ( talk) 02:47, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I have a few remarks regarding the Controversies section. For starters, the sentence "The principal controversies are its views on homosexuality and inter-racial children, and its claims of superpowers" was referenced to [11] and [12]. However, neither of these sources say that those are the "principal controversies". The first gives some quotes from Li Hongzhi's teachings; the second talks about how some people perceived parts of Falun Gong's teachings as "homophobic". Neither explain how those beliefs fit into the corpus of teachings as whole, how relevant they are, or how significant they are.
The next paragraph begins "Quoting Li, the New York Times said...". Li, however, does not state this in that lecture. Rather than getting into the absurdities of matching sources, representing the view that Craig Smith's view is disputed, and all that jazz, this can be fixed by simply finding another source. Ownby can be used to represent Falun Gong's teachings on interraciality. This cuts right to the best source on the subject, while maintaining mention of it (which seems to have become highly important for certain editors). In that sense, I don't seek to delete it, but merely make it respectable and put it in context. The reader should be presented with something that actually explains what practitioners believe, rather than something that is aimed at playing to the reader's stereotypes and that deliberately makes use of inaccurate referencing.
Given that the sentence "The principal controversies..." is a synthesis, I will simply remove it. I don't think any meaning is lost by doing so, because the "controversies" are still represented, and it is implicit that they are controversial.
Secondly, I have replaced Craig Smith's assessment with Ownby's. David Ownby is a much better source, avoids the obvious inaccuracy, fixes the undue weight issue (Ownby devotes a single line to the interracial issue in a book of over 200 pages), and provides the context that was otherwise missing.
I'm looking forward to some constructive discussion. Thanks. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 23:33, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I added some information from three different reputable sources: Patricia Thornton, Mark Palmer, and Fewsmith & Wright. I'm looking forward to a good encyclopedic rewrite of these sections; I urge other editors to take part in it. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 00:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Fewsmith has been in the China studies game for a looong time, so he's a damn good source. I haven't read much of Wright, but I checked out a bibliography in a book and he has obvious credentials. Compared to some stuff in this document that has no sources at all, the above seems warranted - to me at least.
But after reading through this article and a few of the others, I think Colipon is spot on: there's too much detail on minor issues here already. But I don't agree that the insertions currently under discussion are about minor issues, or are too detailed. And Wright and Fewsmith are certainly not a "propaganda" source as Martin Rundvist says. Homunculus ( duihua) 15:25, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I tried to initiate discussion about these matters before, but nobody seemed to take it seriously enough.
Any comments? ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:25, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
This is a placeholder for any and all discussion related to all the removals and summaries I just made. This had been discussed on a few of the related pages (like the history page), and I thought I'd just go ahead and do it. Sometimes I simply removed things for later use elsewhere; other times I just trimmed, summarised, or combined.
Previously I have provided tedious explanations for each change, but in this case will opt for a less structured one: I just thought it would help. There was a lot of specific information about issues that aren't very important, and a great deal of verbosity, elaboration, and repetition. If the page is too long it becomes unhelpful to readers. If anyone misses anything let's discuss the value of it here. The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 13:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I object to some of the recent changes by PCPP. Here's why:
✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 22:40, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
To Zujine, I find it pretty hypoccritical for my edits to be singled out when I only changed several wordings. You seemed to have no problem with Olaf himself adding the material in the first place, especially this edit, where he claimed to have "fixed" the leads's "partisan wording" [13], amongst others [14]. -- PCPP ( talk) 15:09, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
IMHO, Chinese government is more neutral than Chinese Communist Party. It is also more accurate.-- Edward130603 ( talk) 14:10, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
This requires an objective analysis of sources. When the protest is described, how is it most commonly described? peaceful? silent? Or perhaps without an adjective. There may be other factors. Assertions without basis may bring trouble, as Sean_hoyland notes.
David Palmer uses 'peaceful' three times to describe Falungong protests in his book:
David Ownby uses it four times:
David Palmer uses "silent" once to describe the protest:
David Ownby uses "silent" three times:
This brief search of two sources indicates that 'peaceful' is used more commonly than 'silent' to characterise Falungong's Zhongnanhai protest. For a more definitive answer further research would be required. Based on the above I would suggest the word on Wikipedia be 'peaceful.' Regarding CCP/Chinese government, David Palmer uses 'CCP' 78 times, 'party' 176 times, 'regime' 22 times, and 'Chinese government' 4 times. Surprisingly, David Ownby uses 'Chinese government' 43 times, 'regime' 20 times, 'party' (as in 'Chinese Communist Party') 102 times, and the acronym 'CCP' only once. From this, I would suggest using CCP or 'Party'. I would also note that I have read dozens of books on Chinese politics, and CCP is the default term. Homunculus ( duihua) 13:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Human Rights in Contemporary China By R. Randle Edwards, Louis Henkin, Andrew J. Nathan
CCP: 11
Communist party: 40
Party: 75
Government: over 100
People's republic of china: 27
PRC: 42
A search for the term "China" would not be possible here because of the false positives.
The discourse of human rights in China: historical and ideological perspectives By Robert Weatherley
Chinese government: 55
Communist party: 11
Party: 46
PRC: 32
CCP: 21
China, the United Nations, and human rights: the limits of compliance By Ann E. Kent
Communist party: 15
Party: 55
CCP: 9
PRC: 17
people's republic of china: 46
Chinese government: over 100
Bridging the global divide on human rights: a Canada-China dialogue By Errol Mendes, Anik Lalonde-Roussy
communist party: 35
CCP:2
PRC:5
people's republic of china: 13
Chinese government: 57
Party: 71
Falun Gong's challenge to China: spiritual practice or "evil cult"? : a ... By Danny Schechter
Chinese government: over 100 times
CCP:22
Communist party: 59
Party: 88
PRC: 9
people's republic of china: 19
"Party" alone would reasonably generate a good amount of false positives, as would "governement" by itself. It appears that CCP is not the default. Per above, I would strongly recommend Chinese government or China.-- Edward130603 ( talk) 23:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
But if we wanted to be precise, and I think we do want that, it would be more precise to say that the Party, or the CCP, made the decision to persecute Falun Gong. The propaganda campaign at the beginning of the persecution also makes it clear that this was a very 'personal' issue for the CCP, if it could be put that way. Falun Gong was said to have explicitly challenged the CCP, and it received a clear and sharp response ("Falun Gong is a political force opposed to the Communist Party of China and the central government" [15]) . In the CCP's own lexicon, often the persecution is referred to as a struggle between the Party and Falun Gong. I think that Edward130603 and PCPP's concern is that by using CCP it may seem somehow biased, or delegitimising to the CCP. I don't think that is the case.
The distinction between the party/government is partly borne out by, for example, the notes of Ken Lieberthal, who writes (p. 158 of the first edition of 'Governing China': "...the Chinese system is divided into three nationwide bureaucratic hierarchies--the party, the government, and the military.")
In Saich's 2003 'Governance and Politics of China', p. 112, we are told: "The reforms have changed the role of the CCP in significant ways even as it retains its all-powerful role in the system and is willing to crush any potential opposition. This was shown most clearly in the crushing of the student-led demonstrations of 1989..." It is this same impetus of challenge and response behind the crushing of Falun Gong. That is an attitude particular to the Chinese Communist Party, and using the term 'government' would be quite diffuse.
Another example is David Shambaugh's book 'China's Communist Party: atrophy and adaptation'. This is among the most recent scholarship from among the most distinguished of China scholars. From what I can tell, the term 'Chinese government' appears 45 times [16], and CCP appears 100 times [17]. Shambaugh is also quite explicit in addressing the fact that the CCP is a Leninist party that penetrates and dominates society (p. 127). Thus, the aspect that states this, without overstating it, is important for newcomers to the whole discussion of contemporary China and its political rifts. Using a term like 'China' or 'Chinese government' obscures the fact that China is still very much run by a Communist Party, adopting a Leninist organisational structure, that makes all the important decisions. And in particular, when it comes to something of such political sensitivity and significance as the repression of the Falun Gong, the CCP was firmly in charge, the decision coming directly from the Standing Committee. The government then carried out those executive orders, through the education system, the policing system, in state-owned enterprises, and everywhere else that Falun Gong was to be rooted out.
Thus, I think CCP/the Party is more precise language, and more suitable to addressing the decision to defame and persecute Falun Gong. In other places, it may be more appropriate to use 'Chinese government', depending on what was being discussed.
I might also note that I think the level of disputation happening here is surprising to me. Simple terms like persecution, regime, propaganda, Party etc. are routinely challenged, even though they are routinely (though, indeed, not singularly) used by scholars of Chinese politics and of the Chinese Communist Party. On the one hand, I suppose it's good to make sure Wikipedia is carrying forward the highest standards of scholarship. On the other, in some of these disputes one must wonder whether it's a waste of time to wring hands over these issues, and precisely whose interest is being served by changing these commonly accepted terms into ones considered more palatable by some - not that of the readers, in my estimate. But changing the discussion from 'the CCP persecuting Falun Gong' to 'the Chinese government banning Falun Gong' is a significant one, so I have given my input on why I think it is important that the debate stay centered on the proper terminology and mode of discourse to refer to the actors and actions in this conflagration. The Sound and the Fury ( talk) 03:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I have read TheSound's greatly informative piece on how to distinguish the CCP and the government. Strictly speaking in a Communist state, there is not that much difference. Most party organs have parallel bodies in the state. Thus the term "party-state". However, I am not certain that in the intro "The CCP banned..." is appropriate. The ban came on orders from Jiang, apparently, and was undoubtedly carried out by legislative and executive government authorities - i.e. the State Council, the NPC, etc. The suppression afterwards was more or less carried out through the party apparatus - as party members had to "Pledge" to get rid of Falun Gong - while ordinary members of government (who were not party members) did not have this requirement (to my knowledge). Thus I have modified one reference to the CCP in the lead. I am not certain that the "CCP declared Falun Gong to be a cult" to be appropriate either. Again, this 'declaration', to my knowledge, came out of government documents, not CCP documents. Colipon+( Talk) 14:06, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm just going to copy some instances here to show that this is not inconsistent with sources, as claimed. I just want to tackle that claim head on. My overall point has been that it is one of the words used, and it's the word that has been chosen by the wikipedia community to describe it, as shown by the page with that name, named that way for years. And here's some evidence from the sources (some are just randomly taken from that other page, a lot from JN466). The following is presented messily, and I apologise for that. This isn't a scientific analysis, but I just need to quickly dispel the idea that the word is inconsistent with the sources. It is one of a number of acceptable terms. It has been the word used for the page for a long time. The persecution is acknowledged and regarded as such by third parties, and is not a mere set of allegations from Falun Gong. -- Asdfg 12345 08:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
There are literally hundreds of third-party news sources using the term. Examples:
A Google scholar search:
Persecution yielded 1250 results
Crackdown yielded 1360 results
Suppression yielded 1350 results
So there is no definite concensus on the usage of the term. Falun Gong and its umbrella organizations such as the WOIPFG and CIPFG uses the term "persecution" exclusively, while the Chinese government refers to it as "取缔" which means ban.-- PCPP ( talk) 10:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Some words may be used to label a group from an outside perspective, even though these words are used in accordance with a dictionary definition...Such terms, even when accurate, often convey to readers an implied viewpoint: that of outsiders looking in and labeling as they see it. The fact that a term is accepted "outside" but not "inside" is a good indicator that it may not be neutral...There are at least three ways to deal with this: attribute the term to reliable sources; replace the label with information; or use a more neutral term.
-- PCPP ( talk) 11:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Some of the abuses that Falun Gong practitioners have been subject to in Mainland China are widely documented by third-party groups, especially human rights organizations. These should be presented in the article and given its due weight. I am curious to know, however, that since the initial crackdown of Falun Gong, how much more of this "persecution" is actually directed against Falun Gong in specific, and how much of it is directed against all qigong groups, all the groups that are considered 'heretical sects', or all the groups that oppose the Chinese gov't in general. Organ Harvesting is a case in point. You had two clueless Canadian politicians commissioned by Falun Gong going to "investigate" the allegations, and then Falun Gong jumping on it as a "third party corroboration" that the organ harvesting is occurring on a grand scale, and targeted specifically to Falun Gong. If this is not an "allegation", I don't know what is. Even Harry Wu, an expert on organ harvesting, and the first one to bring light to the issue and lambaste the Chinese government, severely criticized the Kilgour-Matas Reports.
Heather Kavan has a good piece detailing Falun Gong's deception tactics in its media outlets - outlining how it has managed its public relations war against the Chinese government. One of Kavan's points, which is echoed by Human Rights Watch, is that there is no doubt Falun Gong practitioners are being treated badly by the Chinese government, and subject to a wide range of abuses. But the scale and the magnitude of these abuses have been vastly exaggerated or twisted by Falun Gong to earn itself legitimacy amongst Western governments and people. Another reason for the Falun Gong 'counter-propaganda' is because the group has been slandered badly by the Chinese government, and, because it belongs to a similar culture of discourse, attacks the Chinese government back with even more slander. Both Kavan and HRW are careful in saying that they endorse neither Falun Gong nor the Chinese government's story, but conclude that regardless of what kind of deceptive products have come out of these media wars, people should not be persecuted just because they have a different belief system. These views of Kavan and Human Rights Watch sum up my position as well. Colipon+( Talk) 14:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)