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Does anyone really see any sort of substantive purpose to the existing hatnote? Why is it there? John Carter ( talk) 20:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Simon I would recommend that you read WP:Vandalism before you justify your reverts with that label, as you did here. Thanks. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 00:47, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Drive-by editing like ASDFG's is a form of vandalism. I will not address your textwalls point by point so stop asking me to. The archives address all points raised by the FLG partizans. No amount of wikilawyering changes the fact that ASDFG is vandalizing this article. It's clear to everybody except you. Perhaps your massive conflict of interest is preventing you from seeing it. Simonm223 ( talk) 14:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand the first note you wrote in parentheses, "that line in the article asserts their POV as fact."-- Asdfg 12345 08:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
The full quote is this:
"Over the next two years, Ms. Chen became an enthusiastic participant, rising at 4:30 a.m. to exercise for 90 minutes in a small dirt lot with half a dozen other practitioners. After a day running errands for her children and grandchildren, Ms. Chen spent evenings reading the works of Mr. Li, the group's founder, and discussing his ideas with fellow members. Those beliefs incorporate traditional morality – do good works, speak honestly, never be evasive – as well as some idiosyncratic notions, such as the existence of extraterrestrial life and separate-but-equal heavens for people of different races." [1] (emphasis added)
This was changed to:
Ian Johnson notes that Falun Gong beliefs "incorporate traditional morality... as well as some idiosyncratic notions, such as the existence of extraterrestrial life" and segregated heavens for people of different races.
You'll notice that the quote stops at "extraterrestrial life." Then the word "segregation" is added, and linked to " racial segregation." I don't know why someone cut the quote short and re-interpreted Johnson's meaning. It's unclear why there should be a need for this character of change. Paraphrasing and so forth is fine, but we should be careful not to inadvertently give a meaning to the quote that the writer did not already provide. Unless Johnson said that he believes Falun Gong teaches racial segregation, then putting it in like this may give a misleading impression to the reader. I won't comment on whether that was deliberate on the part of the editor who made that change. It's highly problematic to adopt this style of editing. Let's put it down to inexperience rather than malice. About other changes to the "controversies section": this is actually a "criticism" section, in the end. It only has negative views. Shall we balance them with positive views, or just leave it? And the other point I wanted to make is that you can't just decide what is a "controversial" teaching and what isn't. That area would be a mile long if we did it that way. A secondary source needs to make that evaluation.-- Asdfg 12345 02:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Oh goodness... you're too much, Simon. Whatever the case, those are Johnson's words. There's no need to break the quote and outlink to some other concept. It's misleading to the reader.-- Asdfg 12345 23:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Enric, the issue was whether the quote should be cut short and the words "separate but equal" changed to "segregate" with the wiki page on "racial segregation" linked. Please respond to whether you think that's appropriate or not. That's really what the dispute was about.-- Asdfg 12345 03:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I have been procrastinating but got some time now. I realised that for many diffs, there is no more immediate explanation than what's in the edit summary. But what's disputed further, we can discuss. I number and link there here anyway, so it's clear what's going on. Again, I request that each edit be dealt with separately, and that responses not be ad-hominem, but actually dealing with the straightforward question of wikipedia policy and sources. You can see how to easily set up the numbering system, or use your own way. Is this the best way of keeping track of the discussion? Anyway, we can try it like this. Would it be more helpful if I copied and pasted the edit summaries right here, so we can see? At the moment I just have two browsers on each side of the screen and can refer to them back and forth easily, but if the paper trail needs to be clearer, I am happy to oblige.
-- Asdfg 12345 15:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I just checked this diff and unfortunately it's not as clean cut as I tried to make it. I apologise if that is annoying to anyone. I don't think it will be hard to recognise that nothing much of the existing content has actually been changed, though. Only the minimum necessary to add more information. The real changes are additions. Over and out.-- Asdfg 12345 16:46, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
See here. Best Regards, -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 16:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I feel the current situation and sentiments are quite unfortunate, and even confusing. Why can't edits be discussed? Why can't we thrash out the issues based on sources and policy? Every change I made was clearly explained in the edit summary, and I made a space above. If you have a problem, please point it out, explain why, or undo that edit, or whatever. Use policy and sources to support your argument, rather than generalised accusations. Show rather than tell how my edits are problematic. I am more than willing to have that discussion, support my arguments with sources, and where I'm wrong admit it and go with the better formulation.-- Asdfg 12345 00:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
This request is bullshit. I won't even dignify it by commenting at ArbCom. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 03:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm.. it's a pretty watertight argument you have, Colipon. Avoids all the actual trouble of engaging in the issues at hand. I like working with other editors, and would like nothing more than to have a collaborative environment here. I don't know how to make that happen. I don't even know what I've done wrong. Edit the pages, it seems. I am sure you are aware that 80% of the Persecution of Falun Gong page, which was full of serious research from academic journals and major newspapers, was all gutted. Simply deleted right off the page, whole sections that were groundbreaking research (like Munro's on psychiatric abuse). But all I've done is balance things here (like adding "decentralisation" to the section about Falun Gong's apparently hyper strict organisation, and making clear the status of the cult claims in the mainstream) with mostly good sources, documenting everything in a very clear way. I don't know what more I can do. But if there is, please tell me. I would like that we could just get on with the actual work rather than all the finger pointing.-- Asdfg 12345 12:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Østergaard, Palmer, Ownby... these are just some of the names that need an apposition when first mentioned in the text. The general reader will ask "who's that?" Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 04:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
-- Asdfg 12345 07:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Per a motion at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment:
Imposition of discretionary sanctions
- The Falun Gong decision is modified as follows:
- (a) The article probation clause (remedy #1) is rescinded.
- (b) Standard discretionary sanctions ( Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) are authorized for " Falun Gong" and all closely related articles.
- This modification does not affect any actions previously taken under the article probation clause; these actions shall remain in force.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,
Tiptoety
talk 07:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I do not agree with "At the time of the Zhongnanhai Incident, Falun Gong had evolved to become a *politicized* and highly mobilized form of social dissent.* How is it politicized? It didn't have a political agenda, nor did it intend to change the Chinese governements policy, nor did it claim to have any political aspirations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.164.172.113 ( talk) 08:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
We should make sure the article represents the full spectrum of views on this topic, also in accordance with their prevalence in the literature.-- Asdfg 12345 01:24, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
i miss two realisations, or perhaps 3 in the article. the first is that falun gong, with it's traditional-like (chinese) eastern concept of a deserving(..) 'soul'(karma) , practice and meditation, and attention for cultural practices (music massage i think, etc.) is not very special of original (since it attracts a lot of attention the chinese government then certainly has a right to check consistency and practice), the second is that his residence in new york appears to make him promote materialist and for the followers potentially very dangerous (except dumb) value's, i think it is rather obvious this is enough to show the chinese the affiliation of the founder with new york is not a very fertile one. next we had our own falun gong campaign in poche magazines and glossys etc here (or at least i saw a single example), wich is fortunately not a great succes, because it is not very helpfull if people start adhering to the idea that luxury's like music, culture, social exercise or spiritual development mean people in china are repressed. therefore it could also be interesting and most amusing to get an overview what this wild (heterodox) and if i am not mistaken rather luxurious movement achieved in usia. you have a heap of ppl with a lot of bias against china that are 'quite falun-gonged'? are they efficiently operated in china unfriendly movements, or do they more often end up in therapy? perhaps they just quit the practice soon and have no lasting effects? or do they have loads of dala and fa? 24.132.171.225 ( talk) 18:27, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Someone has gone and subscribed my email address to a Falun Gong newsletter called "Falun Gong Human Rights Working Group" :-/ It seems that they have searched my name in google to find my email. Anyone else had the same experience? -- Enric Naval ( talk) 06:22, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I saw this in the lead just now. I would suggest that those words be removed. (No, I didn't attempt to remove them editing through an IP account). Two reasons for this are that the accusation or label originated with the CCP and is the CCP's calling-card, if you will, in describing Falun Gong. The label is mostly related to the CCP's "view" of Falun Gong. Another reason is that it's simply untrue that "many academics" use this term to classify or label Falun Gong. In fact, many academics reject the label. If editors were committed to NPOV, I think they would actually note that in the lead. Here's a list of academics' stance on the cult label (credit goes to PelleSmith for compiling this list. I think he left these pages when he got sick of the rampant anti-Falun Gong POV-pushing).-- Asdfg 12345 23:42, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Note: I thought it needed a more subtle gradation, since The Economist and Madsen don't say the same kinds of things as Ownby and Johnson; the latter are explicit repudiations, the former a bit more equivocal.-- Asdfg 12345 00:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Use cult
Don't use cult
Don't accept the cult label
Reject the cult label
From the article :
One follower believed that it will bring "some sudden change that will be good for good people, but bad for bad people."[33]
I can see it's sourced and I guess this is what's left as a compromise after a long debate, but it is now emptied from any meaning. One random (and a bit childish one at that) voice in a movement of millions doesn't fit in an encyclopedia, feels awkward and knocks out of reading rhythm. I don't even know why it's in the controversies section. Needs to be rephrased or deleted. Fearfulleader ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:16, 31 January 2010 (UTC).
It's the result of a mentality that seeks to paint Falun Gong as an illegitimate belief system, make it sound dumb, hard to understand, and if possible, even devious. Why don't you delete that part yourself?-- Asdfg 12345 12:56, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Neutrality doesn't always lead to interest, as it is now it's just a random quote. Furthermore, I don't understand how a part of a belief system could be used as controversy about it, only describing the views of outsiders toward this particular belief can be controversial. Especially when most of the big religions have some degree of Apocalypticism. I tweaked a bit the sentence but I still think it should be deleted altogether Fearfulleader ( talk)
Enric, this edit seems rather cynical, to say the least. Is the purpose of an encyclopedia to make a certain group look crazy, stupid, or heartless? That's what you do when you make edits like that. That's not telling us much about the group, it's not seeking to inform or educate the reader about what these people believe; no encyclopedia would do that kind of thing. These articles should present things in context and try to elucidate whatever the subject is, not be a reflection of the biases of the editors. I would suggest that commentary on the teachings be put in a section about the teachings, and that it should also be much more intelligent, informative, and nuanced. Kavan is not an expert on Chinese religion, she's a communications researcher; so she is probably not a reliable source on Falun Gong's teachings anyway. Even the most basic thing, of presenting her opinion as her opinion, rather than as a "fact" about what Falun Gong practitioners believe, has not been observed. There are issues of reliable sources, undue weight, original research, and neutral point of view here. I suggest seeing what actual experts of Chinese religion, like Ownby or Penny say about Falun Gong's beliefs. They are qualified to comment on the subject, and their words carry far more weight than Kavan's. Wikipedia articles aren't supposed to be "hit pieces." It would be just as simple to make a section called "non-controversial teachings" and fill that up; or one called "peaceful teachings" and fill that up with rosy quotes about Falun Gong's pacifistic and "Gandhian" philosophy. Interesting that that's not happening.-- Asdfg 12345 01:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I have significantly altered the lede section of this article to more clearly represent the content of the article and describe Falun Gong from a more neutral perspective. Please be bold in editing if any other editors see I have made mistakes or overlooked something. I have also taken off the tag for "Unbalanced Viewpoints" as there seems to be no real existing discussion on this issue. Colipon+( Talk) 23:20, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Comments ( current revision):
|archivedate=
and |archiveurl=
parameters of the citation template, and to keep the original url in |url=
).That's all, rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 15:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The Controversy section should not belong under the "Beliefs and teachings" heading. This "Reception" heading can include the Controversy section as well a Advocacy section from various sources to help illustrate the contrasting views.
-- Mavlo ( talk) 04:49, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I just popped by this article to find out about the group, and I thought it was confusing to find a reception section separate from history. The spirit of this re-write seems helpful enough, but not the label or placing. (1) Two label suggestions: "Reception" and "Advocacy" (that is, the meanings of the words, not the content of the sections per se) suggest something that belongs in the history section. Maybe just a section (I think after, not before, the history section?) on "Criticisms" followed by "Reactions/Responses" to them? (2) Organization: bring the 'cult label' discussion into the criticisms/controversy? I know the word 'cult' itself is ambiguous, but as it's introduced with regard to Falun Gong it seems - from this article - to have been clearly intended to be pejorative.
Good points. With regard to the cult label, in the context of Falun Gong I think it is able to be shown that the vast majority of reliable sources place this term, as it was used against Falun Gong, in the context of the persecution/anti-Falun Gong propaganda campaign. I will get some sources on this later, but I think there are few writers who discuss this outside that context. If that is the case, I would think that wikipedia should reflect this and include the cult section as a sub-section to one about the propaganda/media campaign. Looking at the list of academic sources which adopt/reject the label, this also seems to be the case. This logic may be faulty though; if so please point out how.-- Asdfg 12345 07:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Why was the Reception section removed? Why was the Controversy section placed back in Beliefs and teachings? Please explain.-- Mavlo ( talk) 03:24, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
There's no reason to have a "reception" section in an article like this. Reception is for movies, books, plays, etc. It sounds almost belittling to have a section on FLG's "reception". "Controversy" is just fine, because controversy is what it is. And in the current revision, the Controversy subsection is under "Public debate", which is also fine with me. rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 15:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
In hes five months as a registered user on Wikipedia so far, Mavlo has acted as an unabashed pro-Falun Gong Single Purpose Account. Myself and many others are quite relieved that we have recently managed to rid these articles of both pro-FG and anti-FG SPAs. Therefore I would suggest that Mavlo invest hes wiki time, which is in itself of course very welcome, in a wider thematic range of articles and leave the FG ones alone. Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 08:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
This was removed from the article by Colipon: Gutmann argues that because He Zuoxiu is related to the head of public security, Luo Gan, and the journal he wrote the critical article in answers to the state, it was "a signal and trial of the party's designs." Considering themselves "targeted," Falun Gong could "keep quiet - and probably get crushed..." or "stand up - and still probably get crushed." [2]
Perhaps the second part doesn't make sense given the context once you delete 1). The point is that there is more than one narrative of the lead-up to the persecution, and by rights they should both be presented here. Regarding 2, here are the three sources on this issue:
"It was at that point that a physicist published an article in a Tianjin Normal University journal portraying Falun Gong as a dangerous cult. China isn't the West, and these things aren't random: The physicist, He Zuoxiu, is the brother-in-law of Luo Gan, at that time the head of public security, and the Tianjin Normal University journal answers to the state. The article was a flare in the night sky, a signal and trial of the party's designs." (Gutmann). "He Zuoxiu, a scientist and one of Luo Gan's relatives, perhaps partially motivated by how Li Hongzhi calls modern science limited, seems to have intentionally provoked Falun Gong... Things could not have worked out better for the two if they had planned it — which, it appears, they just might have." (Porter). "A number of factors were involved in the souring relations among Falun Gong and the Chinese state and the news media, including ... lobbying efforts on the part of Li’s qigong opponents and scientists-cum-ideologues with political motives and affiliations with competing central Party leaders..." (Zhao) Emphasis added
About your points, I've never heard that sources need to present evidence for the things they assert or opine. Don't get me wrong, it would be great if they all did, but no article I've seen has operated on that basis--especially this one. Just for example: does He Zuoxiu present evidence for his claims about Falun Gong? (more on his remarks in a second). Ownby does not, as far as I am aware make a comment about this. But nor is it a requirement that every comment or opinion be shared by a variety of scholars for it to be included. Many views are held by a very small minority, but still warrant inclusion (the cult label springs to mind). Some analyses are wholly unique to a particular academic, and are still included. On many occasions, the broad facts are not disputed, but each commentator is adding their own shade. It's unclear why this shade should be excluded while others are promoted. Are you applying the same standards to this information as you would to the information you seek to include? It's unclear to me.
Regarding the He Zuoxiu remark about Falun Gong, you may consider balancing it with: "According to Falun Gong, the cases He cited as evidence of the dangers of Falun Gong were erroneous, since the people who had been supposedly harmed were not even Falun Gong practitioners." which is in Ownby's recent book p. 169. Full quote: "According to Falun Gong practitioners who watched the program, the cases that He cited as evidence of the dangers of Falun Gong were erroneous; the people who had been supposedly harmed were not even Falun Gong practtiioners, they said.... [and just for fun] The BTV station must be considered the rough equivalent of the People's Daily as a mouthpiece for state policy and propaganda." -- which was earlier trimmed then deleted. I look forward to understanding your objection to the Gutmann source further. Please let me know if there is something unsatisfactory about my response.-- Asdfg 12345 10:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
As for Falun Gong denying that He's cases were practitioners... well... Falun Gong similarly denied that the self-immolators were practitioners. The article attributes He's opinions to He. This is neutral, balanced, and easily presentable. It should not attribute He's opinions to some party-state machine when there is no evidence to do so, nor is it absolutely obliged to add on a "refutation" from Falun Gong for every negative point against it. Colipon+( Talk) 16:05, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I can't help but feel that these paragraphs of 'discussion' are a type of bait to shift the burden away from Asdfg himself and onto the users that disagree with him. He introduced the passage, numerous editors have expressed reasoned opinions on why it should not be in the article, yet he continues to insist on it through roundabout ways, even after he has been topic-banned. I will reiterate again that this issue has been addressed many times, thus I will not be going into point-by-point rebuttals. Colipon+( Talk) 18:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Finally left note on NPOV board. -- Asdfg 12345 02:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello. I have an idea for the "cult label" section: it is to separate the aspects of the use of the cult label that relate to the Chinese government and put those in the section that deals with the views of the Chinese government. Then in the section of "public debate," include the various characterisations of Falun Gong by media and scholars, including the cult label, and basic analysis of how Falun Gong has been discussed in the public domain. This has some good textual support, including a journal article I came across recently. Adam Frank's book chapter also takes a "discourse analysis" type approach to the issue; in fact, there are several. It would mean that the aspects of response/counter-response to government propaganda could be addressed separately from how Falun Gong has been taken up by Western media and academics. The two are of course related, but by treating them separately the article will allow further exploration of both those views. An explanation of intersections and influences in both those fields would be helpful. That's my thought. I'll make some changes now and the editors can share ideas. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 14:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding this: "Western media's response was initially similar to that of the anti-cult movement,[120] but later used less loaded terms to describe the movement.[121]" I cannot find the first part in the source. Could anyone point me to the page? This may be wrongly attributed. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 15:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I have encountered some sourcing irregularities in the text. There are several places where a source is cited, but where what is written in the article does not appear in the citation. I will make some changes and leave notes here. It took a bit of time to go through these. This is a subject I know something about, having read David Ownby, James Tong, and David Palmer's relatively recent texts; but there are of course intricacies and intricacies. I will make the changes and provide some clear reasons here. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 16:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding the following, in each case I have checked the sources in question and explained below any issues I found. I make these changes (mostly deletions, actually) on the proviso that if my research turns out to be mistaken, someone will be able to fix it just as easily and we'll all have learned something. I haven't checked all the sources carefully yet.
Thanks for your friendly note. The links you sent are eye-openers. It is clearly a subject that arouses emotions and has the potential to polarise debate. The first link you provided seems to explain why, a couple of years ago when I visited the page briefly, it read something like a Falun Gong pamphlet. I suppose it's natural for situations like that to evolve on Wikipedia. I am still in the midst of discussing how to include some potentially "controversial" information about the role of sado-masochism in Michel Foucault's life and work; from this I can see how proponents of the subjects of articles may want certain issues brushed aside. I am pleased to see the inclusion in the current article of Falun Gong's more seemingly eccentric beliefs. Progress toward open engagement with those issues has obviously been made. For my part, I do not want to get involved in any polemics on this subject. I was reading the article and began checking the references, and noticed the irregularities. I haven't finished going through them, and will just do a bit each day. Below are some more findings and explanation of changes. If this meticulous approach is not welcomed, I guess I'll take my business elsewhere and let the polemicists battle it out.
Regarding Nan's criticism of Falun Gong, I did check both Palmer and Ownby and it is not noted. As I say, they do note his criticism of qigong, however, and the violent repercussions toward him because of it. The articles linked from the Nan page are interesting, but if his criticism of Falun Gong specifically has not been noted by major scholars, I'm not sure how notable it can be said to be. The articles linked on that page are friendly to Nan, but those I checked are a bit vague on the details of the criticism itself. At the least, his early FLG criticism seems to have gone under the radar, while those news items appear situated in the post July 20, 1999 context. Perhaps it would do to note it more briefly. The Buddhist criticism of Falun Gong, on the other hand, seems to have legs. Benjamin Penny devotes an article to it, and Palmer a miniature sub-section. It was presented inaccurately in the article though. This took quite some time to sift through. Below are my changes for that and other aspects (I am about to make them).
One final thing is, one editor made two edits that removed information that had recently been added, and also added back the information I removed--removed after showing how it did not correspond to the citations. But that user made no discussion here, so I don't understand this dynamic. The material I removed was clearly not consistent with the stated source. And the material added appears to have been to good sources. I think an explanation would be appropriate. I left a note on that user's discussion page. I find it odd, but I'm not stressed... yet! -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 16:26, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Colipon, thank you for your note on Chinese names. I do not know why I thought that Sima Nan's last name was Nan; that is slightly embarrassing. I said I would continue to comb the citations, and here are some more findings and explanations for some edits that I will make in a moment.
I may list some other changes that I think would be appropriate for this page at a later time. I am finding this level of source scrutiny and meticulousness a good intellectual challenge; getting down to these details is what good scholarship is all about. It is also mentally taxing, so I will take a short break from this page after these edits. First, I will reiterate some elements in the page that currently need to be verified:
Though not an academic text, Schechter's has been an influential one. (In light of that, I must admit that it is unclear why Ostergaard's analysis is the most cited on the page; he obviously presents an "alternative" narrative, as you rightly point out, but the way he is used does not appear to reflect this.) In most cases, however, this should not be overly significant. We should present facts, as far as possible, and keeps things clear of spin. When Schechter gives his cosy opinion of Falun Gong, it can be made clear that it's his opinion, and if it's shown to be wrong by other sources, it can be excluded or moved to a footnote. This is standard practice. That this page would represent a largely Western narrative is perfectly natural, and exactly what a mainstream, English language Encyclopedia should provide. The overwhelming majority of all the factual information is available in multiple sources, is largely undisputed, and often it seems that the only thing that differs are matters of interpretation. When matters of fact differ, all major views should be noted. In constructing the central narrative, we should look at how mainstream sources construct the central narrative. The points of differing interpretation are largely footnotes to the facts, rather than prisms through which facts (I do not mean "truths") are presented.
A good example is the line in this document that says "For Palmer, the Tianjin protest was another sign of Falun Gong's "militancy"; for Gutmann, it was because "refuting lies" is a central part of Falun Gong's moral system." First we are given what happened, then a note on what it means according to X and Y. As regards Sima Nan, whatever the case about his criticism of Falun Gong, it seems clear that it received notability only in the post-7/20 context; in the major sources his criticism is not noted at all. If there was no 7/20, perhaps he would not have made a splash. Whatever the case, we can only go with what we have. I do not think we should re-present information in secondary sources much outside the discursive frame in which it was presented in those sources; dealing with primary sources requires greater care. That would leave the door open to hard-to-resolve disputes, because who is to say in which context certain things be framed? It is better to keep to the sources themselves in providing the frame. I believe that existing Wikipedia policy already clarifies how to manage these issues, and that broadly speaking they are the requirements of any unbiased scholarship. I have another thought after reading the neutral point of view policy page again, outlined below. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 03:51, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Another point I will change in a moment relates to the "controversies" section. I think that the way it is structured now gives too much prominence to the views which "advocate" Falun Gong's way, in how those remarks have been given their own subsection. I believe that information should be integrated into the Controversies, because they are really just part of the controversies. According to the policy on Article Structure [27], this is advisable, too: "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure, such as a back-and-forth dialogue between proponents and opponents." So I will integrate the text. If there is a problem with this, please advise. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 04:15, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
I am in agreement for the most part. I cannot give a lengthy reply as I am quite busy, but it seems like you are working towards NPOV in a very diligent and dedicated fashion. When I have more time I will look more into sourcing myself, but I will message you if I do. Colipon+( Talk) 04:53, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Also, another source you can look into is Human Rights Watch. Even though you'd expect a human rights organization to produce reports that are extremely sympathetic to Falun Gong, the report by HRW was surprisingly balanced - rejecting many Falun Gong claims while also calling on the Chinese government to stop its abuses. Colipon+( Talk) 05:00, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Ownbyfuture
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | → | Archive 35 |
Does anyone really see any sort of substantive purpose to the existing hatnote? Why is it there? John Carter ( talk) 20:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Simon I would recommend that you read WP:Vandalism before you justify your reverts with that label, as you did here. Thanks. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 00:47, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Drive-by editing like ASDFG's is a form of vandalism. I will not address your textwalls point by point so stop asking me to. The archives address all points raised by the FLG partizans. No amount of wikilawyering changes the fact that ASDFG is vandalizing this article. It's clear to everybody except you. Perhaps your massive conflict of interest is preventing you from seeing it. Simonm223 ( talk) 14:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand the first note you wrote in parentheses, "that line in the article asserts their POV as fact."-- Asdfg 12345 08:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
The full quote is this:
"Over the next two years, Ms. Chen became an enthusiastic participant, rising at 4:30 a.m. to exercise for 90 minutes in a small dirt lot with half a dozen other practitioners. After a day running errands for her children and grandchildren, Ms. Chen spent evenings reading the works of Mr. Li, the group's founder, and discussing his ideas with fellow members. Those beliefs incorporate traditional morality – do good works, speak honestly, never be evasive – as well as some idiosyncratic notions, such as the existence of extraterrestrial life and separate-but-equal heavens for people of different races." [1] (emphasis added)
This was changed to:
Ian Johnson notes that Falun Gong beliefs "incorporate traditional morality... as well as some idiosyncratic notions, such as the existence of extraterrestrial life" and segregated heavens for people of different races.
You'll notice that the quote stops at "extraterrestrial life." Then the word "segregation" is added, and linked to " racial segregation." I don't know why someone cut the quote short and re-interpreted Johnson's meaning. It's unclear why there should be a need for this character of change. Paraphrasing and so forth is fine, but we should be careful not to inadvertently give a meaning to the quote that the writer did not already provide. Unless Johnson said that he believes Falun Gong teaches racial segregation, then putting it in like this may give a misleading impression to the reader. I won't comment on whether that was deliberate on the part of the editor who made that change. It's highly problematic to adopt this style of editing. Let's put it down to inexperience rather than malice. About other changes to the "controversies section": this is actually a "criticism" section, in the end. It only has negative views. Shall we balance them with positive views, or just leave it? And the other point I wanted to make is that you can't just decide what is a "controversial" teaching and what isn't. That area would be a mile long if we did it that way. A secondary source needs to make that evaluation.-- Asdfg 12345 02:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Oh goodness... you're too much, Simon. Whatever the case, those are Johnson's words. There's no need to break the quote and outlink to some other concept. It's misleading to the reader.-- Asdfg 12345 23:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Enric, the issue was whether the quote should be cut short and the words "separate but equal" changed to "segregate" with the wiki page on "racial segregation" linked. Please respond to whether you think that's appropriate or not. That's really what the dispute was about.-- Asdfg 12345 03:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I have been procrastinating but got some time now. I realised that for many diffs, there is no more immediate explanation than what's in the edit summary. But what's disputed further, we can discuss. I number and link there here anyway, so it's clear what's going on. Again, I request that each edit be dealt with separately, and that responses not be ad-hominem, but actually dealing with the straightforward question of wikipedia policy and sources. You can see how to easily set up the numbering system, or use your own way. Is this the best way of keeping track of the discussion? Anyway, we can try it like this. Would it be more helpful if I copied and pasted the edit summaries right here, so we can see? At the moment I just have two browsers on each side of the screen and can refer to them back and forth easily, but if the paper trail needs to be clearer, I am happy to oblige.
-- Asdfg 12345 15:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I just checked this diff and unfortunately it's not as clean cut as I tried to make it. I apologise if that is annoying to anyone. I don't think it will be hard to recognise that nothing much of the existing content has actually been changed, though. Only the minimum necessary to add more information. The real changes are additions. Over and out.-- Asdfg 12345 16:46, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
See here. Best Regards, -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 16:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I feel the current situation and sentiments are quite unfortunate, and even confusing. Why can't edits be discussed? Why can't we thrash out the issues based on sources and policy? Every change I made was clearly explained in the edit summary, and I made a space above. If you have a problem, please point it out, explain why, or undo that edit, or whatever. Use policy and sources to support your argument, rather than generalised accusations. Show rather than tell how my edits are problematic. I am more than willing to have that discussion, support my arguments with sources, and where I'm wrong admit it and go with the better formulation.-- Asdfg 12345 00:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
This request is bullshit. I won't even dignify it by commenting at ArbCom. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 03:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm.. it's a pretty watertight argument you have, Colipon. Avoids all the actual trouble of engaging in the issues at hand. I like working with other editors, and would like nothing more than to have a collaborative environment here. I don't know how to make that happen. I don't even know what I've done wrong. Edit the pages, it seems. I am sure you are aware that 80% of the Persecution of Falun Gong page, which was full of serious research from academic journals and major newspapers, was all gutted. Simply deleted right off the page, whole sections that were groundbreaking research (like Munro's on psychiatric abuse). But all I've done is balance things here (like adding "decentralisation" to the section about Falun Gong's apparently hyper strict organisation, and making clear the status of the cult claims in the mainstream) with mostly good sources, documenting everything in a very clear way. I don't know what more I can do. But if there is, please tell me. I would like that we could just get on with the actual work rather than all the finger pointing.-- Asdfg 12345 12:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Østergaard, Palmer, Ownby... these are just some of the names that need an apposition when first mentioned in the text. The general reader will ask "who's that?" Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 04:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
-- Asdfg 12345 07:35, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Per a motion at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment:
Imposition of discretionary sanctions
- The Falun Gong decision is modified as follows:
- (a) The article probation clause (remedy #1) is rescinded.
- (b) Standard discretionary sanctions ( Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions) are authorized for " Falun Gong" and all closely related articles.
- This modification does not affect any actions previously taken under the article probation clause; these actions shall remain in force.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,
Tiptoety
talk 07:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I do not agree with "At the time of the Zhongnanhai Incident, Falun Gong had evolved to become a *politicized* and highly mobilized form of social dissent.* How is it politicized? It didn't have a political agenda, nor did it intend to change the Chinese governements policy, nor did it claim to have any political aspirations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.164.172.113 ( talk) 08:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
We should make sure the article represents the full spectrum of views on this topic, also in accordance with their prevalence in the literature.-- Asdfg 12345 01:24, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
i miss two realisations, or perhaps 3 in the article. the first is that falun gong, with it's traditional-like (chinese) eastern concept of a deserving(..) 'soul'(karma) , practice and meditation, and attention for cultural practices (music massage i think, etc.) is not very special of original (since it attracts a lot of attention the chinese government then certainly has a right to check consistency and practice), the second is that his residence in new york appears to make him promote materialist and for the followers potentially very dangerous (except dumb) value's, i think it is rather obvious this is enough to show the chinese the affiliation of the founder with new york is not a very fertile one. next we had our own falun gong campaign in poche magazines and glossys etc here (or at least i saw a single example), wich is fortunately not a great succes, because it is not very helpfull if people start adhering to the idea that luxury's like music, culture, social exercise or spiritual development mean people in china are repressed. therefore it could also be interesting and most amusing to get an overview what this wild (heterodox) and if i am not mistaken rather luxurious movement achieved in usia. you have a heap of ppl with a lot of bias against china that are 'quite falun-gonged'? are they efficiently operated in china unfriendly movements, or do they more often end up in therapy? perhaps they just quit the practice soon and have no lasting effects? or do they have loads of dala and fa? 24.132.171.225 ( talk) 18:27, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Someone has gone and subscribed my email address to a Falun Gong newsletter called "Falun Gong Human Rights Working Group" :-/ It seems that they have searched my name in google to find my email. Anyone else had the same experience? -- Enric Naval ( talk) 06:22, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I saw this in the lead just now. I would suggest that those words be removed. (No, I didn't attempt to remove them editing through an IP account). Two reasons for this are that the accusation or label originated with the CCP and is the CCP's calling-card, if you will, in describing Falun Gong. The label is mostly related to the CCP's "view" of Falun Gong. Another reason is that it's simply untrue that "many academics" use this term to classify or label Falun Gong. In fact, many academics reject the label. If editors were committed to NPOV, I think they would actually note that in the lead. Here's a list of academics' stance on the cult label (credit goes to PelleSmith for compiling this list. I think he left these pages when he got sick of the rampant anti-Falun Gong POV-pushing).-- Asdfg 12345 23:42, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Note: I thought it needed a more subtle gradation, since The Economist and Madsen don't say the same kinds of things as Ownby and Johnson; the latter are explicit repudiations, the former a bit more equivocal.-- Asdfg 12345 00:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Use cult
Don't use cult
Don't accept the cult label
Reject the cult label
From the article :
One follower believed that it will bring "some sudden change that will be good for good people, but bad for bad people."[33]
I can see it's sourced and I guess this is what's left as a compromise after a long debate, but it is now emptied from any meaning. One random (and a bit childish one at that) voice in a movement of millions doesn't fit in an encyclopedia, feels awkward and knocks out of reading rhythm. I don't even know why it's in the controversies section. Needs to be rephrased or deleted. Fearfulleader ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:16, 31 January 2010 (UTC).
It's the result of a mentality that seeks to paint Falun Gong as an illegitimate belief system, make it sound dumb, hard to understand, and if possible, even devious. Why don't you delete that part yourself?-- Asdfg 12345 12:56, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Neutrality doesn't always lead to interest, as it is now it's just a random quote. Furthermore, I don't understand how a part of a belief system could be used as controversy about it, only describing the views of outsiders toward this particular belief can be controversial. Especially when most of the big religions have some degree of Apocalypticism. I tweaked a bit the sentence but I still think it should be deleted altogether Fearfulleader ( talk)
Enric, this edit seems rather cynical, to say the least. Is the purpose of an encyclopedia to make a certain group look crazy, stupid, or heartless? That's what you do when you make edits like that. That's not telling us much about the group, it's not seeking to inform or educate the reader about what these people believe; no encyclopedia would do that kind of thing. These articles should present things in context and try to elucidate whatever the subject is, not be a reflection of the biases of the editors. I would suggest that commentary on the teachings be put in a section about the teachings, and that it should also be much more intelligent, informative, and nuanced. Kavan is not an expert on Chinese religion, she's a communications researcher; so she is probably not a reliable source on Falun Gong's teachings anyway. Even the most basic thing, of presenting her opinion as her opinion, rather than as a "fact" about what Falun Gong practitioners believe, has not been observed. There are issues of reliable sources, undue weight, original research, and neutral point of view here. I suggest seeing what actual experts of Chinese religion, like Ownby or Penny say about Falun Gong's beliefs. They are qualified to comment on the subject, and their words carry far more weight than Kavan's. Wikipedia articles aren't supposed to be "hit pieces." It would be just as simple to make a section called "non-controversial teachings" and fill that up; or one called "peaceful teachings" and fill that up with rosy quotes about Falun Gong's pacifistic and "Gandhian" philosophy. Interesting that that's not happening.-- Asdfg 12345 01:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I have significantly altered the lede section of this article to more clearly represent the content of the article and describe Falun Gong from a more neutral perspective. Please be bold in editing if any other editors see I have made mistakes or overlooked something. I have also taken off the tag for "Unbalanced Viewpoints" as there seems to be no real existing discussion on this issue. Colipon+( Talk) 23:20, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Comments ( current revision):
|archivedate=
and |archiveurl=
parameters of the citation template, and to keep the original url in |url=
).That's all, rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 15:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The Controversy section should not belong under the "Beliefs and teachings" heading. This "Reception" heading can include the Controversy section as well a Advocacy section from various sources to help illustrate the contrasting views.
-- Mavlo ( talk) 04:49, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
I just popped by this article to find out about the group, and I thought it was confusing to find a reception section separate from history. The spirit of this re-write seems helpful enough, but not the label or placing. (1) Two label suggestions: "Reception" and "Advocacy" (that is, the meanings of the words, not the content of the sections per se) suggest something that belongs in the history section. Maybe just a section (I think after, not before, the history section?) on "Criticisms" followed by "Reactions/Responses" to them? (2) Organization: bring the 'cult label' discussion into the criticisms/controversy? I know the word 'cult' itself is ambiguous, but as it's introduced with regard to Falun Gong it seems - from this article - to have been clearly intended to be pejorative.
Good points. With regard to the cult label, in the context of Falun Gong I think it is able to be shown that the vast majority of reliable sources place this term, as it was used against Falun Gong, in the context of the persecution/anti-Falun Gong propaganda campaign. I will get some sources on this later, but I think there are few writers who discuss this outside that context. If that is the case, I would think that wikipedia should reflect this and include the cult section as a sub-section to one about the propaganda/media campaign. Looking at the list of academic sources which adopt/reject the label, this also seems to be the case. This logic may be faulty though; if so please point out how.-- Asdfg 12345 07:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Why was the Reception section removed? Why was the Controversy section placed back in Beliefs and teachings? Please explain.-- Mavlo ( talk) 03:24, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
There's no reason to have a "reception" section in an article like this. Reception is for movies, books, plays, etc. It sounds almost belittling to have a section on FLG's "reception". "Controversy" is just fine, because controversy is what it is. And in the current revision, the Controversy subsection is under "Public debate", which is also fine with me. rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 15:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
In hes five months as a registered user on Wikipedia so far, Mavlo has acted as an unabashed pro-Falun Gong Single Purpose Account. Myself and many others are quite relieved that we have recently managed to rid these articles of both pro-FG and anti-FG SPAs. Therefore I would suggest that Mavlo invest hes wiki time, which is in itself of course very welcome, in a wider thematic range of articles and leave the FG ones alone. Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 08:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
This was removed from the article by Colipon: Gutmann argues that because He Zuoxiu is related to the head of public security, Luo Gan, and the journal he wrote the critical article in answers to the state, it was "a signal and trial of the party's designs." Considering themselves "targeted," Falun Gong could "keep quiet - and probably get crushed..." or "stand up - and still probably get crushed." [2]
Perhaps the second part doesn't make sense given the context once you delete 1). The point is that there is more than one narrative of the lead-up to the persecution, and by rights they should both be presented here. Regarding 2, here are the three sources on this issue:
"It was at that point that a physicist published an article in a Tianjin Normal University journal portraying Falun Gong as a dangerous cult. China isn't the West, and these things aren't random: The physicist, He Zuoxiu, is the brother-in-law of Luo Gan, at that time the head of public security, and the Tianjin Normal University journal answers to the state. The article was a flare in the night sky, a signal and trial of the party's designs." (Gutmann). "He Zuoxiu, a scientist and one of Luo Gan's relatives, perhaps partially motivated by how Li Hongzhi calls modern science limited, seems to have intentionally provoked Falun Gong... Things could not have worked out better for the two if they had planned it — which, it appears, they just might have." (Porter). "A number of factors were involved in the souring relations among Falun Gong and the Chinese state and the news media, including ... lobbying efforts on the part of Li’s qigong opponents and scientists-cum-ideologues with political motives and affiliations with competing central Party leaders..." (Zhao) Emphasis added
About your points, I've never heard that sources need to present evidence for the things they assert or opine. Don't get me wrong, it would be great if they all did, but no article I've seen has operated on that basis--especially this one. Just for example: does He Zuoxiu present evidence for his claims about Falun Gong? (more on his remarks in a second). Ownby does not, as far as I am aware make a comment about this. But nor is it a requirement that every comment or opinion be shared by a variety of scholars for it to be included. Many views are held by a very small minority, but still warrant inclusion (the cult label springs to mind). Some analyses are wholly unique to a particular academic, and are still included. On many occasions, the broad facts are not disputed, but each commentator is adding their own shade. It's unclear why this shade should be excluded while others are promoted. Are you applying the same standards to this information as you would to the information you seek to include? It's unclear to me.
Regarding the He Zuoxiu remark about Falun Gong, you may consider balancing it with: "According to Falun Gong, the cases He cited as evidence of the dangers of Falun Gong were erroneous, since the people who had been supposedly harmed were not even Falun Gong practitioners." which is in Ownby's recent book p. 169. Full quote: "According to Falun Gong practitioners who watched the program, the cases that He cited as evidence of the dangers of Falun Gong were erroneous; the people who had been supposedly harmed were not even Falun Gong practtiioners, they said.... [and just for fun] The BTV station must be considered the rough equivalent of the People's Daily as a mouthpiece for state policy and propaganda." -- which was earlier trimmed then deleted. I look forward to understanding your objection to the Gutmann source further. Please let me know if there is something unsatisfactory about my response.-- Asdfg 12345 10:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
As for Falun Gong denying that He's cases were practitioners... well... Falun Gong similarly denied that the self-immolators were practitioners. The article attributes He's opinions to He. This is neutral, balanced, and easily presentable. It should not attribute He's opinions to some party-state machine when there is no evidence to do so, nor is it absolutely obliged to add on a "refutation" from Falun Gong for every negative point against it. Colipon+( Talk) 16:05, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
I can't help but feel that these paragraphs of 'discussion' are a type of bait to shift the burden away from Asdfg himself and onto the users that disagree with him. He introduced the passage, numerous editors have expressed reasoned opinions on why it should not be in the article, yet he continues to insist on it through roundabout ways, even after he has been topic-banned. I will reiterate again that this issue has been addressed many times, thus I will not be going into point-by-point rebuttals. Colipon+( Talk) 18:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Finally left note on NPOV board. -- Asdfg 12345 02:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello. I have an idea for the "cult label" section: it is to separate the aspects of the use of the cult label that relate to the Chinese government and put those in the section that deals with the views of the Chinese government. Then in the section of "public debate," include the various characterisations of Falun Gong by media and scholars, including the cult label, and basic analysis of how Falun Gong has been discussed in the public domain. This has some good textual support, including a journal article I came across recently. Adam Frank's book chapter also takes a "discourse analysis" type approach to the issue; in fact, there are several. It would mean that the aspects of response/counter-response to government propaganda could be addressed separately from how Falun Gong has been taken up by Western media and academics. The two are of course related, but by treating them separately the article will allow further exploration of both those views. An explanation of intersections and influences in both those fields would be helpful. That's my thought. I'll make some changes now and the editors can share ideas. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 14:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding this: "Western media's response was initially similar to that of the anti-cult movement,[120] but later used less loaded terms to describe the movement.[121]" I cannot find the first part in the source. Could anyone point me to the page? This may be wrongly attributed. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 15:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I have encountered some sourcing irregularities in the text. There are several places where a source is cited, but where what is written in the article does not appear in the citation. I will make some changes and leave notes here. It took a bit of time to go through these. This is a subject I know something about, having read David Ownby, James Tong, and David Palmer's relatively recent texts; but there are of course intricacies and intricacies. I will make the changes and provide some clear reasons here. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 16:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Regarding the following, in each case I have checked the sources in question and explained below any issues I found. I make these changes (mostly deletions, actually) on the proviso that if my research turns out to be mistaken, someone will be able to fix it just as easily and we'll all have learned something. I haven't checked all the sources carefully yet.
Thanks for your friendly note. The links you sent are eye-openers. It is clearly a subject that arouses emotions and has the potential to polarise debate. The first link you provided seems to explain why, a couple of years ago when I visited the page briefly, it read something like a Falun Gong pamphlet. I suppose it's natural for situations like that to evolve on Wikipedia. I am still in the midst of discussing how to include some potentially "controversial" information about the role of sado-masochism in Michel Foucault's life and work; from this I can see how proponents of the subjects of articles may want certain issues brushed aside. I am pleased to see the inclusion in the current article of Falun Gong's more seemingly eccentric beliefs. Progress toward open engagement with those issues has obviously been made. For my part, I do not want to get involved in any polemics on this subject. I was reading the article and began checking the references, and noticed the irregularities. I haven't finished going through them, and will just do a bit each day. Below are some more findings and explanation of changes. If this meticulous approach is not welcomed, I guess I'll take my business elsewhere and let the polemicists battle it out.
Regarding Nan's criticism of Falun Gong, I did check both Palmer and Ownby and it is not noted. As I say, they do note his criticism of qigong, however, and the violent repercussions toward him because of it. The articles linked from the Nan page are interesting, but if his criticism of Falun Gong specifically has not been noted by major scholars, I'm not sure how notable it can be said to be. The articles linked on that page are friendly to Nan, but those I checked are a bit vague on the details of the criticism itself. At the least, his early FLG criticism seems to have gone under the radar, while those news items appear situated in the post July 20, 1999 context. Perhaps it would do to note it more briefly. The Buddhist criticism of Falun Gong, on the other hand, seems to have legs. Benjamin Penny devotes an article to it, and Palmer a miniature sub-section. It was presented inaccurately in the article though. This took quite some time to sift through. Below are my changes for that and other aspects (I am about to make them).
One final thing is, one editor made two edits that removed information that had recently been added, and also added back the information I removed--removed after showing how it did not correspond to the citations. But that user made no discussion here, so I don't understand this dynamic. The material I removed was clearly not consistent with the stated source. And the material added appears to have been to good sources. I think an explanation would be appropriate. I left a note on that user's discussion page. I find it odd, but I'm not stressed... yet! -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 16:26, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Colipon, thank you for your note on Chinese names. I do not know why I thought that Sima Nan's last name was Nan; that is slightly embarrassing. I said I would continue to comb the citations, and here are some more findings and explanations for some edits that I will make in a moment.
I may list some other changes that I think would be appropriate for this page at a later time. I am finding this level of source scrutiny and meticulousness a good intellectual challenge; getting down to these details is what good scholarship is all about. It is also mentally taxing, so I will take a short break from this page after these edits. First, I will reiterate some elements in the page that currently need to be verified:
Though not an academic text, Schechter's has been an influential one. (In light of that, I must admit that it is unclear why Ostergaard's analysis is the most cited on the page; he obviously presents an "alternative" narrative, as you rightly point out, but the way he is used does not appear to reflect this.) In most cases, however, this should not be overly significant. We should present facts, as far as possible, and keeps things clear of spin. When Schechter gives his cosy opinion of Falun Gong, it can be made clear that it's his opinion, and if it's shown to be wrong by other sources, it can be excluded or moved to a footnote. This is standard practice. That this page would represent a largely Western narrative is perfectly natural, and exactly what a mainstream, English language Encyclopedia should provide. The overwhelming majority of all the factual information is available in multiple sources, is largely undisputed, and often it seems that the only thing that differs are matters of interpretation. When matters of fact differ, all major views should be noted. In constructing the central narrative, we should look at how mainstream sources construct the central narrative. The points of differing interpretation are largely footnotes to the facts, rather than prisms through which facts (I do not mean "truths") are presented.
A good example is the line in this document that says "For Palmer, the Tianjin protest was another sign of Falun Gong's "militancy"; for Gutmann, it was because "refuting lies" is a central part of Falun Gong's moral system." First we are given what happened, then a note on what it means according to X and Y. As regards Sima Nan, whatever the case about his criticism of Falun Gong, it seems clear that it received notability only in the post-7/20 context; in the major sources his criticism is not noted at all. If there was no 7/20, perhaps he would not have made a splash. Whatever the case, we can only go with what we have. I do not think we should re-present information in secondary sources much outside the discursive frame in which it was presented in those sources; dealing with primary sources requires greater care. That would leave the door open to hard-to-resolve disputes, because who is to say in which context certain things be framed? It is better to keep to the sources themselves in providing the frame. I believe that existing Wikipedia policy already clarifies how to manage these issues, and that broadly speaking they are the requirements of any unbiased scholarship. I have another thought after reading the neutral point of view policy page again, outlined below. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 03:51, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Another point I will change in a moment relates to the "controversies" section. I think that the way it is structured now gives too much prominence to the views which "advocate" Falun Gong's way, in how those remarks have been given their own subsection. I believe that information should be integrated into the Controversies, because they are really just part of the controversies. According to the policy on Article Structure [27], this is advisable, too: "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure, such as a back-and-forth dialogue between proponents and opponents." So I will integrate the text. If there is a problem with this, please advise. -- TheSoundAndTheFury ( talk) 04:15, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
I am in agreement for the most part. I cannot give a lengthy reply as I am quite busy, but it seems like you are working towards NPOV in a very diligent and dedicated fashion. When I have more time I will look more into sourcing myself, but I will message you if I do. Colipon+( Talk) 04:53, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Also, another source you can look into is Human Rights Watch. Even though you'd expect a human rights organization to produce reports that are extremely sympathetic to Falun Gong, the report by HRW was surprisingly balanced - rejecting many Falun Gong claims while also calling on the Chinese government to stop its abuses. Colipon+( Talk) 05:00, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Ownbyfuture
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).