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Hello, this revert is an example of a blind revert. Please don't do that anymore it is not productive. If you have some problems with a particular change, phrase or paragraph, you can highlight your issues on the talk page. Thanks. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 11:03, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
also added in the Li quote again, and made clear that that part was Kavan's opinion. I really don't see the problem with this stuff?-- Asdfg 12345 23:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
What was the Kavan sentence you put it? I couldn't detect a difference..?-- Asdfg 12345 23:35, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Regarding asdfg's most recent edits, I can hardly call "not cool, not wiki" as per here an even remotely useful edit summary, and frankly I do not believe that he is himself in the position to make such determinations in any event, for the reasons that have been stated repeatedly. Regarding the second and thankfully last in the most recent series of edits by that party, here, I see both reasons given as being, at best, insufficient. First, the sedtion about Kavan's study is obviously about Kavan's study, not "fact". Very few people familiar with most any academic studies come to the conclusion that all studies necessarily report factual information. That being the case, I have to see his addition there as being, basically, an attempt to weaken the material, possibly in accord with his frequently commented upon bias in this matter. And it should be noted that not all things frequently commented upon are fact, either. Regarding his second point, I cannot see how a statement of Li to his followers is even remotely relevant to a statement about what Kavan found in her study, uncless Kavan herself was a follower, which has not been discussed. It could, of course, in an unlikely way, be the case that the addition of the material could be seen as an attempt to persuade any individuals who are followers of Li to abide by his teachings, and that statement in particular, if they are ever asked to take part in such studies, but I doubt very many people at all would be paying so much attention to this article that such a possible attempt at persuasion would be effective. In any event, however, I cannot see how that quotation is even remotely relevant or appropriate to that section. John Carter ( talk) 00:06, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit conflict] You mean you don't see how the quote from Li is relevant? What he says is about how the practitioners should run the media, the way they should do it. Kavan's comment is about the same thing. How are they unrelated?
About the changes to the cult section, here is what was outright deleted:
The characterization of Falun Gong as a cult, however, is dismissed by leading researchers in the field. David Ownby argues that "The entire issue of the supposed cultic nature of Falun Gong was a red herring from the beginning, cleverly exploited by the Chinese state to blunt the appeal of Falun gong and the effectiveness of the group’s activities outside of China." [1] Ian Johnson also rejects the label, writing that it "put Falun Gong on the defensive, forcing it to prove its innocence, and cloaked the government's crackdown with the legitimacy of the West's anticult movement." [2] Practitioners of Falun Gong say they are engaged in merely a "spiritual discipline." According to the United States, State Department, whether or not a group is classified as a cult depends on the Chinese authorities and is "based on no discernible criteria other than the Government’s desire to maintain control." [3]
The majority of scholars who have done fieldwork with Falun Gong practitioners come to different conclusions than Singer and Kavan.
Journalists in China who used the cult label would be ensured continued media access, according to Gutmann.
Then there were other changes, like:
Can you please tell me why the information cited above was deleted? Secondly, can you tell me what was wrong with those changes (in numbers), and could you tell me why there was a need for outright reversion rather than incremental changes, or doing some modifications in a step-by-step way, like I did?
Just as a test, I'm going to put the Ownby/Johnson/USDOS stuff back, and see if it gets deleted. If it does, I think there might be an arbitration enforcement case afoot. Thanks.-- Asdfg 12345 01:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
[ec] by the way, I just want to suggest to Ohconfucius, Colipon and John, to take a step back and consider your conduct. I opened up a discussion about whether the cult label is fringe or not, presenting most of the sources we have available. Two of you refused to engage in the discussion, dismissing it. John said "no" then well PelleSmith took him to task, he changed the subject ceaselessly and eventually broke off the discussion. There is a long list of how different sources treat this issue, and it's clear that the cult label is a minority view. Now, information from the majority view--that Falun Gong is not a cult, and that the label was primarily a propaganda tool--has been repeatedly pulled from the pages with no real justification. Indeed, the discussion about this has been obfuscated again and again. This is just really unreasonable. Please see WP:DUE: "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." and "it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view, and that it is in fact a minority view" and "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors."
A partial list of academic sources on the cult label has been presented, the overwhelming majority do not use cult as a way of characterising Falun Gong, and a good number explicitly reject it. If the information I added again is deleted, we'll see what happens.-- Asdfg 12345 01:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Update: how is adding sourced, mainstream views to wikipedia provocation? You need to play by the rules. Everything I'm doing is trying to make the page conform to the content policies. I just quoted them. You're refusing to engage in the bones of contention and instead accusing me of bad faith. Disappointing.-- Asdfg 12345 01:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
How is it a violation of WP:DUE, John? Please be specific.-- Asdfg 12345 01:38, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
And just so I'm not letting your other issues hang. Doing multiple edits: I actually thought this was easier and what people preferred. Ohconfucius edits like this. It makes it easier to know what each change was, because you see it with each edit summary. If making 10 changes, you don't have time to explain each one in a single edit summary. I try to keep one change per edit most of the time, just for transparency. If we have a consensus on the preferred editing approach, I'm happy to go along with what people prefer. The other thing, about seekign consensus: yes, I started a discussion about whether the cult label was a fringe theory or not. We know how that went. Several people refused to respond, a couple of others said it wasn't without explaining themselves properly, and apparently in the face of an overwhelming majority of sources which don't use the label or criticise it, opposed to two which uphold it... yes, I did seek consensus. Now I'm just adding sourced, mainstream material, and I believe that's what I'm supposed to do.-- Asdfg 12345 01:42, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Correction: those who refuse to participate in this 'fringe/not-fringe" issue are merely giving up on this round, having exhausted what they had to say about it previously, and being fed up with the ad nauseum self-flagellation. Ohconfucius ( talk) 01:55, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm pasting the discussion below, which I think is quite indicative of the current situation. Please take a look at it, John, and think about who is violating WP:DUE and who is being disruptive. By the way, we are now getting into mostly pointless meta-discussion. The real question is why the elephant in the room (the cult label being a minority view) is being constantly ignored?-- Asdfg 12345 02:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
dude, that's a bit unreasonable. You guys are refusing to engage in discussion about how the cult label is a minority view, even when it's proven to you that it is by the sheer number of sources supporting/ignoring/opposing it. Then, when I try to add in sourced, relevant information from impeccable sources, it's repeatedly deleted from the article. And the only reason I had to add it like that is because you guys wouldn't budge on how to frame the whole section, basically insisting on making a minority view the dominant interpretation. The whole thing is poor behaviour, in my view. If that paragraph is deleted again, I'm going to start an AE case.-- Asdfg 12345 01:12, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
How on earth is whether the cult label is a fringe theory or not irrelevant? This is precisely obfuscating discussion. It's a perfectly legitimate question. In assessing how to treat the topic in the articles, one of the main questions is its prevalence in the literature. If it's very clear that it's a minority view, then why isn't it being treated as such? I don't want to "sideline" the issue, I want the articles to conform to NPOV, and specifically, WP:DUE. The neutral point of view is derived from the literature on the subject, not from editor's brains. And WP:DUE discusses the majority/minority thing. How can you say that by refusing to discuss whether it's a minority view (same as fringe, essentially, and blindingly obvious by looking at the sources), that you are being reasonable? That's just wacky, don't you think? (and noting that the cult label is, in fact, a label, which is how the mainstream sources regard it--a label applied by the CCP to Falun Gong as a way of deligitimising the practice--also conforms to WP:DUE.) You seem to think that you decide what is neutral and what isn't. You don't. The sources decide that, and our debate should be grounded firmly in what they say. But when I try to take the discussion in that direction it's "irrelevant." What gives?-- Asdfg 12345 01:32, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
BTW, please do not take this personally. I don't understand why we can't just dispassionately look at the sources and policy, and just go from there. This just gets swept up in personal rubbish and the whole thing gets turned into something else. That's not what it's about. This is like solving a maths problem or playing chess. The raw material is there (sources), the policies are there, it's just like a jigsaw puzzle. Minimal creativity required. You just do the basic processing function of turning academic articles into summarised sentences, then line them all up in the article, along with some other stuff, like delinking dates. Really.-- Asdfg 12345 01:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
You know, I would really appreciate it if you laid off the personal stuff and just responded to what I'm writing about the content of the article, the sources, and the policy. I just want you to respond to that.-- Asdfg 12345 01:44, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
"sometimes a Wikipedia editor creates long-term problems by persistently editing a page or set of pages with information which is not verifiable through reliable sources or insisting on giving undue weight to a minority view." -- who is pushing minority views, again? It's not me.-- Asdfg 12345 01:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
This is also funny: "Does not engage in consensus building:
Who is doing this?-- Asdfg 12345 01:55, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I pull the plug on the fruitless discussion on my talk page, and it moves here within a flash. Ho hum... Ohconfucius ( talk) 02:01, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
(What's the point in copying this from a talkpage/private conversation? Personal war? Blackmail? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:02, 4 October 2009 (UTC))
To keep things germane, let me ask a final time: is the regarding Falun Gong a cult a minority view or not? I propose that it is, and I gave a long list of sources about it above. Does anyone disagree that it is a minority view? (note, the word has changed from "fringe" to "minority"--maybe this won't meet with such resistance). Can we get some views? for now, I'm going to do other stuff and will come back later. I'm feeling like this whole thing is a bit twilight-zoney. -- Asdfg 12345 02:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I submit that:
Can we discuss these points? I think it's just the most upfront and simple way to go about this. I know it's been brought up before, but this is just silly, to some extent, when David Ownby is repeatedly pulled out of the cult section, and the sources which clearly say that it's a fringe theory are pulled out. I'm adding Ownby and Johnson back now--it's clear that both of them are exemplary sources, and their statements on the topic are highly notable and warranted. Let's discuss the other aspects. Please remember that reliable sources are king here at wikipedia.-- Asdfg 12345 09:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
We'll find a far more sensible way of resolving this when we address the real issue: is it a fringe theory or not? This is the locus of debate, really. It was not actually resolved last time when PelleSmith began the discussion. Here's the link he compiled:
Use cult
Don't use cult
Reject the cult label
NOTE: Very often, actually, in all the cases above, a rejection of the cult label goes along with a statement that it is essentially a propaganda tool. I didn't put that in the sub-section name, just to keep things simple, but I'm noting it here.
Another issue is, the "reject" category includes all those in the "don't use" category. I would think that an overwhelming majority of "don't use" compared to "use" would be enough to conclude that the "use" pile is fringe (particularly when the credentials are questionable, such as Singer, and when Kavan is trained as a media professor--the case against Kavan here is not as strong, but at the least, she carries far less weight than people like Ownby on this issue)-- Asdfg 12345 09:23, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Here, it says "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study."
On the WP:NPOV page there is some related language about WP:DUE, related to the fringe guideline:
Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.
Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors.
Is it clear by now that the cult label is a minority view, a fringe theory? I'm not asking whether there is a "debate," and "debate" isn't the metric wikipedia uses to evaluate arguments and sources. There's a "debate" between Darwinism and creationism--but one is certainly a fringe theory and the other not. There are also a bunch of other theories. The proponents of them call it a debate; the mainstream calls them fringe. What we're interested in here is the preponderance of the term in mainstream sources, and how it is treated in them. I'm showing that it's 1) not used by mainstream sources as a descriptor of Falun Gong, and 2) often rejected by mainstream sources as a propaganda tool. I believe this makes it clear that the cult label in relation to Falun Gong is a fringe theory. Any dispute?-- Asdfg 12345 09:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
[edit conflict] Just another point: It just dawned on me that the list of "don't use the cult label" is every academic article which is not in the first list. That's a tautology, obviously, but the point is that that "don't" list can already be considered to be maybe another couple of dozen names long, since it is only a very few, specific academic sources (like Kavan and Singer) which use the cult label with regard to Falun Gong seriously. -- Asdfg 12345 09:54, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Update: Thanks for your response, Seb. Would you like to elaborate on what you mean further? You seem to be suggesting that you disagree that the cult label is a fringe theory, but you don't explain why, or offer any sources in support. Please note that you are required to justify your stance with reliable sources.-- Asdfg 12345 09:54, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
We may be getting somewhere. You seek to dispute that the cult label is a fringe theory on the basis that the CCP was the first to use it, and promotes the term as a descriptor of Falun Gong? That's an unexpected argument. Just so things are clear, Ohconfucius, do you support this assessment? Seb, are you arguing that the CCP is a reliable source on Falun Gong, and on evaluating the cultic or non-cultic nature of religious beliefs and practices? Or are you saying that regardless of the reliability of the CCP as a source, the cult theory is not a fringe theory, simply because the CCP has an army and a police force? I'm not sure if I follow your exact argument. If you gave me some policy to chew on it might help. What you're saying seems odd to me right now...-- Asdfg 12345 10:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way, you may have linked the wrong policy. WP:N is specifically about what qualifies for an article. It's in the "nutshell" and the first sentence: Within Wikipedia, notability determines whether a topic merits its own article...-- Asdfg 12345 10:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Fine, if you're not disputing that it's a fringe theory then there's no dispute. The cult label is a fringe theory. It should then be treated in the article as such. This is about WP:DUE, which says things like "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." -- if you're admitting that the CCP is not a reliable source, that also makes sense. The real thing is how academics have taken up the cult label. And we see above how. If you are not really disputing that it's a minority view, there should be no problem amending the article's current condition to reflect this. Here's another: "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention overall as the majority view." -- there are more. It's all over there at WP:NPOV. Just to sum up, so the state of this discussion is perfectly clear:
My conclusion, based on the policy, sources, and lack of response, is that the cult label in referring to Falun Gong is a fringe theory. We all know that the article should reflect the preponderance of reliable sources on the subject, as NPOV and DUE make very clear. Now we also know, it would appear, how reliable sources treat the cult label with regard to Falun Gong. The article is quite far from reflecting this at the moment. I'll make some changes that I think will remedy this now. -- Asdfg 12345 11:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I have very serious difficulties not jumping to the conclusion that this whole discussion is some form of POV pushing. The use of the word is at least discussed significantly by the Chinese government, and by the sources independent of the government. The index in Ownby lists for "cults" pages 3-5, 19-20, 23-24, 43, 127, 161, 164, 168, 173, 176-182, 195, 223, 226, 229-230, and I can verify right off that most of the later items listed above deal specifically with the term as it applies to Falun Gong. I have no reason to believe that the word should be, in some form of censorship, excluded from the article. Exactly how much attention should be given to it, however, is another matter entirely. It is clearly among the most often used words used to describe Falun Gong by the government, however, and very reasonably should be included in the material describing the government's later reactions to Falun Gong. John Carter ( talk) 13:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
It's a notable label, that's not in question. I just want to get a consensus on whether it's fringe or not. It's fine that we take it to another forum if we're at a deadlock, but the question I've raised is actually a very simple, very straightforward one, and we can establish an objective metric for weighing it up. It's actually got nothing to do with preexisting bias in favor of Falun Gong. By saying that you are effectively painting yourself into a corner. Apparently, then, PelleSmith must have a pro-Falun Gong bias, simply because he's suggesting that the cult label in terms of Falun Gong is a fringe theory in academia? (the label, by the way, is a fringe theory in general. In terms of Falun Gong it is doubly problematic, given its uptake in communist propaganda.) Anyway, you've said you think it's not a minority viewpoint, so that gives some way for a start to the discussion. Since it's fairly important to make clear how the cult label will be treated in this article, if we cannot agree to how it will be treated on this page--and agreement for how it should be treated on this page is unrelated to how we personally feel about it--then sure, let's take it to another forum and get other people to decide for us, so we can get on with it. It's good to bring these issues out and just get things real clear.-- Asdfg 12345 20:18, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm not even sure what the problem is. The labeling of the group as a cult is both 1) notable because of the Chinese government's political rhetoric while being 2) fringe/minority in the academy. As long as the "cult" label is used contextually in the entry there is absolutely no problem with it being there. Does anyone object to the current version? I believe this is a more accurate reflection of the "cult" issue with a couple of minor exceptions. The Frank reference could go back in to neutralize it a tad, but it really does seem at this point that academic consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of not using the word at all and we should reflect this more clearly than it was in the version I scaled down a while ago. PelleSmith ( talk) 17:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can see, a balanced treatment of the cult issue now goes something like this:
We also notice that the following was removed:
I have no more energy to run these circular arguments. ASDFG's edit summary was misleading, and makes it seem like a 'consensus' was reached at the talk page, when really he is just inserting content favourable to FLG and removing content that criticizes it. This is absolutely unacceptable. Colipon+( Talk) 18:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way, Ohconfucius, please be sure to give your stance about whether it's a fringe theory or not.-- Asdfg 12345 20:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Don't know where to ask this, but why do we have the Cheris Shun-ching Chan reference? On the surface, Chan seems to use an entirely different definition of "cult" and doesn't seem that relevant. Dan ( talk) 02:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Quick question, if Singer/Chen/Kavan is notable and reliable enough here, even though they are sustaining a fringe view per scholars, then how is it that the following source: " According to the United States, State Department, whether or not a group is classified as a cult depends on the Chinese authorities and is "based on no discernible criteria other than the Government’s desire to maintain control." [3] " is being reverted for the third time now? -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 16:41, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
How on earth does this distort the original meaning of the source? I don't understand what you mean. Did you read the original source? I'm restoring it, and I'll assume it was just a momentary lapse of judgement.--
Asdfg
12345
17:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
did you follow the link? It's on the USDOS website. The statement was def made under the aegis of the USDOS, as far as it appears. Contrary evidence welcome. It should be linked though, and you can take a look. I don't know what grounds there would be for disqualifying this source?-- Asdfg 12345 19:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, you could make it more visible like so. Now, the quote comes from a State Department official testifying before a House Subcommittee, apparently to explain for them the policy of the State Department. (Almost immediately after the quote we see: In light of these problems, the Department of State has taken various steps to promote increased respect in China for international human rights standards and democratic principles, according to Birkle.) I don't know if you want to call that the USDOS position, but it has more legal significance than an official government press release and I doubt China considered it the view of a private citizen. It clearly belongs in the article. Dan ( talk) 01:32, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
This is some of the material I can most quickly find regaring this matter, of course, at this point, all from Ownby, as that is the source I have most readily at hand.
Still working on finding other relevant information. Not all of the above might be particularly useful, but I thought it all at least worth bringing before everyone. Give me some time to finish tagging and assessing for the UAE and I'll see if I can find any more in Ownby, or in the Chiang book which I can try to mine for information as well.
John Carter (
talk)
16:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
John, can you state which book these quotes are from? Colipon+( Talk) 20:42, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Kavan uses a definition for "cult" in her work that includes mind control techniques in it as an aspect of such groups. Mind contol theories are fringe in the relevant disciplines (sociology and psychology). Suggesting that they may not be fringe in other disciplines is entirely irrelevant. Specific disciplines claim expertise in specific areas of study and other disciplines have no purchase on such expertise. This brings me to the point I tried raising some time ago: why is a communications professor sporting a fringe theory on "cults" being used in a discussion about how to classify a social group? Her fieldwork methods may be sound and the information she has gathered on this group is valuable but these facts are quite seperate from the cult label issue and I mean that both ways. Her emperical research is in no way invalidated by this nor does the strength of that research change how out of her element she is when classiying social groups. PelleSmith ( talk) 23:40, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Without comment on whether or not "cult" should be mentioned in the lead please answer the following question so we can move on: Is using the cult label to describe Falun Gong a fringe position in scholarship? PelleSmith ( talk) 12:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
A friendly reminder, the question above is: Is using the cult label to describe Falun Gong a fringe position in scholarship?
This discussion is becoming entangled. Please create a section for each issue and in that section discuss that issue, otherwise in the end it will not be possible to evaluate what was answered and what was not and anybody can claim that the question was repeated ad nauseum. No honest editor should want this to happen again. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 07:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
This is not a vote, it is a simple question about how people perceive scholarly consensus to fall on the use of cult to describe the group. I see absolutely not legitimate reason not to answer yes or no, besides either not having enough information to answer the question (which ought not to be the case given the prior discussion) or affirmatively believing that there is no scholarly consensus. I also implore you all to simply get this over with so you can move on to more fruitful endeavors. Please also keep in mind that the inclusion of the clearly notable use of the label by entities outside of the academy is not in danger of being wikilayered out because of an affirmation of scholarly consensus. Accurately reflecting what sources say should be the simple solution to both problems. PelleSmith ( talk) 14:44, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Happy and John, this discussion seems irrelevant. Let's get clear on what the consensus in scholarship is. At the moment it's looking very much like the cult label is a fringe theory. Any problem there?--
Asdfg
12345
19:39, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi John, a few questions:
-- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 07:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Ownbyfuture
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hello, this revert is an example of a blind revert. Please don't do that anymore it is not productive. If you have some problems with a particular change, phrase or paragraph, you can highlight your issues on the talk page. Thanks. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 11:03, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
also added in the Li quote again, and made clear that that part was Kavan's opinion. I really don't see the problem with this stuff?-- Asdfg 12345 23:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
What was the Kavan sentence you put it? I couldn't detect a difference..?-- Asdfg 12345 23:35, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Regarding asdfg's most recent edits, I can hardly call "not cool, not wiki" as per here an even remotely useful edit summary, and frankly I do not believe that he is himself in the position to make such determinations in any event, for the reasons that have been stated repeatedly. Regarding the second and thankfully last in the most recent series of edits by that party, here, I see both reasons given as being, at best, insufficient. First, the sedtion about Kavan's study is obviously about Kavan's study, not "fact". Very few people familiar with most any academic studies come to the conclusion that all studies necessarily report factual information. That being the case, I have to see his addition there as being, basically, an attempt to weaken the material, possibly in accord with his frequently commented upon bias in this matter. And it should be noted that not all things frequently commented upon are fact, either. Regarding his second point, I cannot see how a statement of Li to his followers is even remotely relevant to a statement about what Kavan found in her study, uncless Kavan herself was a follower, which has not been discussed. It could, of course, in an unlikely way, be the case that the addition of the material could be seen as an attempt to persuade any individuals who are followers of Li to abide by his teachings, and that statement in particular, if they are ever asked to take part in such studies, but I doubt very many people at all would be paying so much attention to this article that such a possible attempt at persuasion would be effective. In any event, however, I cannot see how that quotation is even remotely relevant or appropriate to that section. John Carter ( talk) 00:06, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
[edit conflict] You mean you don't see how the quote from Li is relevant? What he says is about how the practitioners should run the media, the way they should do it. Kavan's comment is about the same thing. How are they unrelated?
About the changes to the cult section, here is what was outright deleted:
The characterization of Falun Gong as a cult, however, is dismissed by leading researchers in the field. David Ownby argues that "The entire issue of the supposed cultic nature of Falun Gong was a red herring from the beginning, cleverly exploited by the Chinese state to blunt the appeal of Falun gong and the effectiveness of the group’s activities outside of China." [1] Ian Johnson also rejects the label, writing that it "put Falun Gong on the defensive, forcing it to prove its innocence, and cloaked the government's crackdown with the legitimacy of the West's anticult movement." [2] Practitioners of Falun Gong say they are engaged in merely a "spiritual discipline." According to the United States, State Department, whether or not a group is classified as a cult depends on the Chinese authorities and is "based on no discernible criteria other than the Government’s desire to maintain control." [3]
The majority of scholars who have done fieldwork with Falun Gong practitioners come to different conclusions than Singer and Kavan.
Journalists in China who used the cult label would be ensured continued media access, according to Gutmann.
Then there were other changes, like:
Can you please tell me why the information cited above was deleted? Secondly, can you tell me what was wrong with those changes (in numbers), and could you tell me why there was a need for outright reversion rather than incremental changes, or doing some modifications in a step-by-step way, like I did?
Just as a test, I'm going to put the Ownby/Johnson/USDOS stuff back, and see if it gets deleted. If it does, I think there might be an arbitration enforcement case afoot. Thanks.-- Asdfg 12345 01:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
[ec] by the way, I just want to suggest to Ohconfucius, Colipon and John, to take a step back and consider your conduct. I opened up a discussion about whether the cult label is fringe or not, presenting most of the sources we have available. Two of you refused to engage in the discussion, dismissing it. John said "no" then well PelleSmith took him to task, he changed the subject ceaselessly and eventually broke off the discussion. There is a long list of how different sources treat this issue, and it's clear that the cult label is a minority view. Now, information from the majority view--that Falun Gong is not a cult, and that the label was primarily a propaganda tool--has been repeatedly pulled from the pages with no real justification. Indeed, the discussion about this has been obfuscated again and again. This is just really unreasonable. Please see WP:DUE: "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." and "it should always be clear which parts of the text describe the minority view, and that it is in fact a minority view" and "Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors."
A partial list of academic sources on the cult label has been presented, the overwhelming majority do not use cult as a way of characterising Falun Gong, and a good number explicitly reject it. If the information I added again is deleted, we'll see what happens.-- Asdfg 12345 01:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Update: how is adding sourced, mainstream views to wikipedia provocation? You need to play by the rules. Everything I'm doing is trying to make the page conform to the content policies. I just quoted them. You're refusing to engage in the bones of contention and instead accusing me of bad faith. Disappointing.-- Asdfg 12345 01:23, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
How is it a violation of WP:DUE, John? Please be specific.-- Asdfg 12345 01:38, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
And just so I'm not letting your other issues hang. Doing multiple edits: I actually thought this was easier and what people preferred. Ohconfucius edits like this. It makes it easier to know what each change was, because you see it with each edit summary. If making 10 changes, you don't have time to explain each one in a single edit summary. I try to keep one change per edit most of the time, just for transparency. If we have a consensus on the preferred editing approach, I'm happy to go along with what people prefer. The other thing, about seekign consensus: yes, I started a discussion about whether the cult label was a fringe theory or not. We know how that went. Several people refused to respond, a couple of others said it wasn't without explaining themselves properly, and apparently in the face of an overwhelming majority of sources which don't use the label or criticise it, opposed to two which uphold it... yes, I did seek consensus. Now I'm just adding sourced, mainstream material, and I believe that's what I'm supposed to do.-- Asdfg 12345 01:42, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Correction: those who refuse to participate in this 'fringe/not-fringe" issue are merely giving up on this round, having exhausted what they had to say about it previously, and being fed up with the ad nauseum self-flagellation. Ohconfucius ( talk) 01:55, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm pasting the discussion below, which I think is quite indicative of the current situation. Please take a look at it, John, and think about who is violating WP:DUE and who is being disruptive. By the way, we are now getting into mostly pointless meta-discussion. The real question is why the elephant in the room (the cult label being a minority view) is being constantly ignored?-- Asdfg 12345 02:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
dude, that's a bit unreasonable. You guys are refusing to engage in discussion about how the cult label is a minority view, even when it's proven to you that it is by the sheer number of sources supporting/ignoring/opposing it. Then, when I try to add in sourced, relevant information from impeccable sources, it's repeatedly deleted from the article. And the only reason I had to add it like that is because you guys wouldn't budge on how to frame the whole section, basically insisting on making a minority view the dominant interpretation. The whole thing is poor behaviour, in my view. If that paragraph is deleted again, I'm going to start an AE case.-- Asdfg 12345 01:12, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
How on earth is whether the cult label is a fringe theory or not irrelevant? This is precisely obfuscating discussion. It's a perfectly legitimate question. In assessing how to treat the topic in the articles, one of the main questions is its prevalence in the literature. If it's very clear that it's a minority view, then why isn't it being treated as such? I don't want to "sideline" the issue, I want the articles to conform to NPOV, and specifically, WP:DUE. The neutral point of view is derived from the literature on the subject, not from editor's brains. And WP:DUE discusses the majority/minority thing. How can you say that by refusing to discuss whether it's a minority view (same as fringe, essentially, and blindingly obvious by looking at the sources), that you are being reasonable? That's just wacky, don't you think? (and noting that the cult label is, in fact, a label, which is how the mainstream sources regard it--a label applied by the CCP to Falun Gong as a way of deligitimising the practice--also conforms to WP:DUE.) You seem to think that you decide what is neutral and what isn't. You don't. The sources decide that, and our debate should be grounded firmly in what they say. But when I try to take the discussion in that direction it's "irrelevant." What gives?-- Asdfg 12345 01:32, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
BTW, please do not take this personally. I don't understand why we can't just dispassionately look at the sources and policy, and just go from there. This just gets swept up in personal rubbish and the whole thing gets turned into something else. That's not what it's about. This is like solving a maths problem or playing chess. The raw material is there (sources), the policies are there, it's just like a jigsaw puzzle. Minimal creativity required. You just do the basic processing function of turning academic articles into summarised sentences, then line them all up in the article, along with some other stuff, like delinking dates. Really.-- Asdfg 12345 01:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
You know, I would really appreciate it if you laid off the personal stuff and just responded to what I'm writing about the content of the article, the sources, and the policy. I just want you to respond to that.-- Asdfg 12345 01:44, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
"sometimes a Wikipedia editor creates long-term problems by persistently editing a page or set of pages with information which is not verifiable through reliable sources or insisting on giving undue weight to a minority view." -- who is pushing minority views, again? It's not me.-- Asdfg 12345 01:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
This is also funny: "Does not engage in consensus building:
Who is doing this?-- Asdfg 12345 01:55, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I pull the plug on the fruitless discussion on my talk page, and it moves here within a flash. Ho hum... Ohconfucius ( talk) 02:01, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
(What's the point in copying this from a talkpage/private conversation? Personal war? Blackmail? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 02:02, 4 October 2009 (UTC))
To keep things germane, let me ask a final time: is the regarding Falun Gong a cult a minority view or not? I propose that it is, and I gave a long list of sources about it above. Does anyone disagree that it is a minority view? (note, the word has changed from "fringe" to "minority"--maybe this won't meet with such resistance). Can we get some views? for now, I'm going to do other stuff and will come back later. I'm feeling like this whole thing is a bit twilight-zoney. -- Asdfg 12345 02:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I submit that:
Can we discuss these points? I think it's just the most upfront and simple way to go about this. I know it's been brought up before, but this is just silly, to some extent, when David Ownby is repeatedly pulled out of the cult section, and the sources which clearly say that it's a fringe theory are pulled out. I'm adding Ownby and Johnson back now--it's clear that both of them are exemplary sources, and their statements on the topic are highly notable and warranted. Let's discuss the other aspects. Please remember that reliable sources are king here at wikipedia.-- Asdfg 12345 09:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
We'll find a far more sensible way of resolving this when we address the real issue: is it a fringe theory or not? This is the locus of debate, really. It was not actually resolved last time when PelleSmith began the discussion. Here's the link he compiled:
Use cult
Don't use cult
Reject the cult label
NOTE: Very often, actually, in all the cases above, a rejection of the cult label goes along with a statement that it is essentially a propaganda tool. I didn't put that in the sub-section name, just to keep things simple, but I'm noting it here.
Another issue is, the "reject" category includes all those in the "don't use" category. I would think that an overwhelming majority of "don't use" compared to "use" would be enough to conclude that the "use" pile is fringe (particularly when the credentials are questionable, such as Singer, and when Kavan is trained as a media professor--the case against Kavan here is not as strong, but at the least, she carries far less weight than people like Ownby on this issue)-- Asdfg 12345 09:23, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Here, it says "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study."
On the WP:NPOV page there is some related language about WP:DUE, related to the fringe guideline:
Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.
Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors.
Is it clear by now that the cult label is a minority view, a fringe theory? I'm not asking whether there is a "debate," and "debate" isn't the metric wikipedia uses to evaluate arguments and sources. There's a "debate" between Darwinism and creationism--but one is certainly a fringe theory and the other not. There are also a bunch of other theories. The proponents of them call it a debate; the mainstream calls them fringe. What we're interested in here is the preponderance of the term in mainstream sources, and how it is treated in them. I'm showing that it's 1) not used by mainstream sources as a descriptor of Falun Gong, and 2) often rejected by mainstream sources as a propaganda tool. I believe this makes it clear that the cult label in relation to Falun Gong is a fringe theory. Any dispute?-- Asdfg 12345 09:44, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
[edit conflict] Just another point: It just dawned on me that the list of "don't use the cult label" is every academic article which is not in the first list. That's a tautology, obviously, but the point is that that "don't" list can already be considered to be maybe another couple of dozen names long, since it is only a very few, specific academic sources (like Kavan and Singer) which use the cult label with regard to Falun Gong seriously. -- Asdfg 12345 09:54, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Update: Thanks for your response, Seb. Would you like to elaborate on what you mean further? You seem to be suggesting that you disagree that the cult label is a fringe theory, but you don't explain why, or offer any sources in support. Please note that you are required to justify your stance with reliable sources.-- Asdfg 12345 09:54, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
We may be getting somewhere. You seek to dispute that the cult label is a fringe theory on the basis that the CCP was the first to use it, and promotes the term as a descriptor of Falun Gong? That's an unexpected argument. Just so things are clear, Ohconfucius, do you support this assessment? Seb, are you arguing that the CCP is a reliable source on Falun Gong, and on evaluating the cultic or non-cultic nature of religious beliefs and practices? Or are you saying that regardless of the reliability of the CCP as a source, the cult theory is not a fringe theory, simply because the CCP has an army and a police force? I'm not sure if I follow your exact argument. If you gave me some policy to chew on it might help. What you're saying seems odd to me right now...-- Asdfg 12345 10:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way, you may have linked the wrong policy. WP:N is specifically about what qualifies for an article. It's in the "nutshell" and the first sentence: Within Wikipedia, notability determines whether a topic merits its own article...-- Asdfg 12345 10:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Fine, if you're not disputing that it's a fringe theory then there's no dispute. The cult label is a fringe theory. It should then be treated in the article as such. This is about WP:DUE, which says things like "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." -- if you're admitting that the CCP is not a reliable source, that also makes sense. The real thing is how academics have taken up the cult label. And we see above how. If you are not really disputing that it's a minority view, there should be no problem amending the article's current condition to reflect this. Here's another: "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention overall as the majority view." -- there are more. It's all over there at WP:NPOV. Just to sum up, so the state of this discussion is perfectly clear:
My conclusion, based on the policy, sources, and lack of response, is that the cult label in referring to Falun Gong is a fringe theory. We all know that the article should reflect the preponderance of reliable sources on the subject, as NPOV and DUE make very clear. Now we also know, it would appear, how reliable sources treat the cult label with regard to Falun Gong. The article is quite far from reflecting this at the moment. I'll make some changes that I think will remedy this now. -- Asdfg 12345 11:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I have very serious difficulties not jumping to the conclusion that this whole discussion is some form of POV pushing. The use of the word is at least discussed significantly by the Chinese government, and by the sources independent of the government. The index in Ownby lists for "cults" pages 3-5, 19-20, 23-24, 43, 127, 161, 164, 168, 173, 176-182, 195, 223, 226, 229-230, and I can verify right off that most of the later items listed above deal specifically with the term as it applies to Falun Gong. I have no reason to believe that the word should be, in some form of censorship, excluded from the article. Exactly how much attention should be given to it, however, is another matter entirely. It is clearly among the most often used words used to describe Falun Gong by the government, however, and very reasonably should be included in the material describing the government's later reactions to Falun Gong. John Carter ( talk) 13:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
It's a notable label, that's not in question. I just want to get a consensus on whether it's fringe or not. It's fine that we take it to another forum if we're at a deadlock, but the question I've raised is actually a very simple, very straightforward one, and we can establish an objective metric for weighing it up. It's actually got nothing to do with preexisting bias in favor of Falun Gong. By saying that you are effectively painting yourself into a corner. Apparently, then, PelleSmith must have a pro-Falun Gong bias, simply because he's suggesting that the cult label in terms of Falun Gong is a fringe theory in academia? (the label, by the way, is a fringe theory in general. In terms of Falun Gong it is doubly problematic, given its uptake in communist propaganda.) Anyway, you've said you think it's not a minority viewpoint, so that gives some way for a start to the discussion. Since it's fairly important to make clear how the cult label will be treated in this article, if we cannot agree to how it will be treated on this page--and agreement for how it should be treated on this page is unrelated to how we personally feel about it--then sure, let's take it to another forum and get other people to decide for us, so we can get on with it. It's good to bring these issues out and just get things real clear.-- Asdfg 12345 20:18, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm not even sure what the problem is. The labeling of the group as a cult is both 1) notable because of the Chinese government's political rhetoric while being 2) fringe/minority in the academy. As long as the "cult" label is used contextually in the entry there is absolutely no problem with it being there. Does anyone object to the current version? I believe this is a more accurate reflection of the "cult" issue with a couple of minor exceptions. The Frank reference could go back in to neutralize it a tad, but it really does seem at this point that academic consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of not using the word at all and we should reflect this more clearly than it was in the version I scaled down a while ago. PelleSmith ( talk) 17:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
As far as I can see, a balanced treatment of the cult issue now goes something like this:
We also notice that the following was removed:
I have no more energy to run these circular arguments. ASDFG's edit summary was misleading, and makes it seem like a 'consensus' was reached at the talk page, when really he is just inserting content favourable to FLG and removing content that criticizes it. This is absolutely unacceptable. Colipon+( Talk) 18:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way, Ohconfucius, please be sure to give your stance about whether it's a fringe theory or not.-- Asdfg 12345 20:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Don't know where to ask this, but why do we have the Cheris Shun-ching Chan reference? On the surface, Chan seems to use an entirely different definition of "cult" and doesn't seem that relevant. Dan ( talk) 02:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Quick question, if Singer/Chen/Kavan is notable and reliable enough here, even though they are sustaining a fringe view per scholars, then how is it that the following source: " According to the United States, State Department, whether or not a group is classified as a cult depends on the Chinese authorities and is "based on no discernible criteria other than the Government’s desire to maintain control." [3] " is being reverted for the third time now? -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 16:41, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
How on earth does this distort the original meaning of the source? I don't understand what you mean. Did you read the original source? I'm restoring it, and I'll assume it was just a momentary lapse of judgement.--
Asdfg
12345
17:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
did you follow the link? It's on the USDOS website. The statement was def made under the aegis of the USDOS, as far as it appears. Contrary evidence welcome. It should be linked though, and you can take a look. I don't know what grounds there would be for disqualifying this source?-- Asdfg 12345 19:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, you could make it more visible like so. Now, the quote comes from a State Department official testifying before a House Subcommittee, apparently to explain for them the policy of the State Department. (Almost immediately after the quote we see: In light of these problems, the Department of State has taken various steps to promote increased respect in China for international human rights standards and democratic principles, according to Birkle.) I don't know if you want to call that the USDOS position, but it has more legal significance than an official government press release and I doubt China considered it the view of a private citizen. It clearly belongs in the article. Dan ( talk) 01:32, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
This is some of the material I can most quickly find regaring this matter, of course, at this point, all from Ownby, as that is the source I have most readily at hand.
Still working on finding other relevant information. Not all of the above might be particularly useful, but I thought it all at least worth bringing before everyone. Give me some time to finish tagging and assessing for the UAE and I'll see if I can find any more in Ownby, or in the Chiang book which I can try to mine for information as well.
John Carter (
talk)
16:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
John, can you state which book these quotes are from? Colipon+( Talk) 20:42, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Kavan uses a definition for "cult" in her work that includes mind control techniques in it as an aspect of such groups. Mind contol theories are fringe in the relevant disciplines (sociology and psychology). Suggesting that they may not be fringe in other disciplines is entirely irrelevant. Specific disciplines claim expertise in specific areas of study and other disciplines have no purchase on such expertise. This brings me to the point I tried raising some time ago: why is a communications professor sporting a fringe theory on "cults" being used in a discussion about how to classify a social group? Her fieldwork methods may be sound and the information she has gathered on this group is valuable but these facts are quite seperate from the cult label issue and I mean that both ways. Her emperical research is in no way invalidated by this nor does the strength of that research change how out of her element she is when classiying social groups. PelleSmith ( talk) 23:40, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Without comment on whether or not "cult" should be mentioned in the lead please answer the following question so we can move on: Is using the cult label to describe Falun Gong a fringe position in scholarship? PelleSmith ( talk) 12:27, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
A friendly reminder, the question above is: Is using the cult label to describe Falun Gong a fringe position in scholarship?
This discussion is becoming entangled. Please create a section for each issue and in that section discuss that issue, otherwise in the end it will not be possible to evaluate what was answered and what was not and anybody can claim that the question was repeated ad nauseum. No honest editor should want this to happen again. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 07:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
This is not a vote, it is a simple question about how people perceive scholarly consensus to fall on the use of cult to describe the group. I see absolutely not legitimate reason not to answer yes or no, besides either not having enough information to answer the question (which ought not to be the case given the prior discussion) or affirmatively believing that there is no scholarly consensus. I also implore you all to simply get this over with so you can move on to more fruitful endeavors. Please also keep in mind that the inclusion of the clearly notable use of the label by entities outside of the academy is not in danger of being wikilayered out because of an affirmation of scholarly consensus. Accurately reflecting what sources say should be the simple solution to both problems. PelleSmith ( talk) 14:44, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Happy and John, this discussion seems irrelevant. Let's get clear on what the consensus in scholarship is. At the moment it's looking very much like the cult label is a fringe theory. Any problem there?--
Asdfg
12345
19:39, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi John, a few questions:
-- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 07:47, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Ownbyfuture
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).