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Estimates of Falun Gong membership is extremely varied, and not what is currently being presented in the article. At the time of the crackdown in 1999, Falun Gong claimed 100 members (clearwisdom) while official state sources ranged from 30 to 80 million (People's daily). Post-crackdown numbers range anywhere from 2 million to Falun Gong's original claim of 100 million. The 2-million estimate can be reliably drawn from the number of regular Falun Gong practitioners who engage in "public" exercise and in proselytizing the "Fa", something they are required to do by Li. Therefore, it is safe to assume that the vast majority of Falun Gong practitioners are visible in public. 100 million would mean the number of FLG practitioners outnumber people living in Canada more than three-fold. Kavan estimates the number of Falun Gong practitioners in New Zealand (a FLG haven, out of just over 4 million people) to be a few hundred at best. The number for 100 million is simply not credible, given that Falun Gong claims to not have any organization and method of tracking members. NRMs are known to exaggerate membership, and my impression from scholarly works (especially Tong) is that as of 2009, a number like '100 million' is vastly exaggerated. Colipon+( Talk) 08:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Ohconf, you are blatantly distorting the facts. Nine Commentaries are way better than anything the communists made!-- FalunDafaDisciple ( talk) 18:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
That might sound like a stupid question, but David Onby indicates on page 4 of Falun Gong and the Future of China that there is "no consensus regarding the fundamental character of the group", and mentions as specific ideas put forward a "cultivation system", "heterodox cult", "spiritual movement", "new religious movement", and "a practice combining meditation and breathing exercises with a doctrine loosely rooted in Buddhist and Taoise teachings." Should the lede be adjusted to more clearly reflect that there is no clearly agreed upon definition of the nature of the group? John Carter ( talk) 15:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Another thing reverted here [1] is the estimate wording. Falun Gong has no membership, so nobody can claim any number of practitioners, the best that it can do is to estimate how many practitioners there are based statistics like this: [2]. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 10:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
“ | Falun Dafa guides people to cultivate their xinxing to be good people according to the characteristics of the universe, Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance, fundamentally eliminating illnesses, cleansing people's hearts, purifying their souls, and leading people on the path to returning to their original, true selves. Within seven years, Dafa had spread widely across China. More than one hundred million people practiced it. | ” |
Perhaps I am just being skeptical, but none of this chunk of text lends much credibility for an "estimate". It is a "claim" at best. One could even argue that within the context it is presented, it doesn't belong in the lede at all. Colipon+( Talk) 01:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
The cult section has been slowly unbalanced and turned POV. Editing has also left it downright misleading in parts. It now makes it appear that there the "cult" perspective on FG in academia is at least on par with the perspective that does not use the cult label which is grossly inaccurate. It also makes it seem like the reason for not using the label has more to do with politics than with scholarly veracity which is also innaccurate. Who calls them a cult other than Kavan (whose expertise has nothing to do with the classification of social groups) and Singer (whose theories are fringe)? To make matters worse the connection between Singer and the ACM has been categorically removed and now this misleading gem of a sentence appears
Scholars reject brainwashing theories, in total, and not simply those "of the Anti-cult movement". The reference I provided specifically mentions Singer and her colleagues, meaning Singer and other psychologists who promoted these theories. And why was Kavan removed at the end of the sentence as well? they do not use the term the way Singer and Kavan do. Didn't I make it abundantly clear that Kavan's definition of "cult" has no resemblance to academic definitions outside the anti-cult leaning academic fringe? As I've said before, as long as this kind of manipulation of balance exists there will always be edit warring because even the pro-FLG editors are pushing back against POV. And you know what, at least their POV is obvious, open and easy to identify. I'm not going to edit this entry again as I said above, but it would be nice to at least hear someone refute what I have said instead of just ignoring then subtly pushing this anti-cult POV into the entry. PelleSmith ( talk) 11:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Pelle, all I can suggest is just to stick around. Just take a detached approach, don't worry about the outcome, and focus on the process and on taking each step well. It's clear that there is manipulation and POV-pushing here, and I've even done this in the past, like cherry-picking quotes, thinking that this is a good idea because it agrees with my philosophical proclivities with regard to the subject, etc.. I refuse to do this anymore. Anyway, it's plain to see who is doing it and when, and through the process of discussion, dissecting edits, and so on, people's consistency and credibility gets revealed. Those trying to game the system long term will fail, and they'll get banned. My advice is to approach things in a detached way, just keep doing what you're doing. The other side of the coin is not to always first assume ideological motivations when people raise concerns that would appear to fit in with what their suspected proclivities are. It would be easier if we were non-emotional beings.-- Asdfg 12345 03:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Below I suggest listing scholars who use the "cult" label to describe Falun Gong and those that do not. More explicitly those who use other descriptors instead. After this it may be helpful to break out those who do not into those who explicitly disagree with the label in regards to Falun Gong and why. I have started this for you. In case there is any confusion I put the sources in parentheses when I found them on my own outside of what is in this entry so they could be verified. PelleSmith ( talk) 13:02, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Use cult
Don't use cult
On the flip side of the same coin, academics do not explicitly label Falun Gong a "cult" for a wide variety of reasons. One of the most important reasons is that "cult" carries with it extremely negative connotations, and another is that it would place these academics on par with the Chinese government, whose charges against Falun Gong are exaggerated and politically motivated. However, many academics who distance themselves from CCP views (including Ownby, Chan, Irons, Burgdoff, Rahn, etc) are critical of Falun Gong in its various aspects.
In retrospect, perhaps it was not appropriate to zoom in public debate on the "cult" question alone, but rather on the more broad question of Falun Gong's controversies in their entirety. To the average reader, a summary of who thinks Falun Gong is a cult and who does not does little to contextualize the views of Falun Gong's critics (i.e. academic criticism, not just negative criticism). It is for this reason that I propose the section be re-worked into smaller sections, renamed "Public debate", and if necessary, build an article for Criticism of Falun Gong. I realize that a section like this would lead to an uproar and POV wars, but it is not an excuse to not give Criticism of Falun Gong due weight in the articles. Colipon+( Talk) 18:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
It's unclear why a name like "criticism and controversies" would be more desireable than "reception." The first is negative, the latter is neither positive nor negative. If there were a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies, to maintain a neutral point of view, would there then also be a section called "agreements and praise"? Silly, right? Why the proclivity for argument and criticism rather than consensus and praise? I don't understand, I think it should just be called reception, which includes all points of view, and let's get on with life. The list of cult/non-cult academics is useful; there may be another list of academics which disavow the cultic label in terms of Falun Gong. I think it would be longer and of a higher quality than the pro-cult list. This, to me, shows that it is a minority view as defined by wikipedia policies.-- Asdfg 12345 03:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
made some changes. I really appreciate how there are these different streams of debate going on in these pages now. the pro-FLG pov is being cleaned up, which is good. let's be wary of going too far the other way though as a reaction. i will really do my best to put aside time each day to come and edit and participate in discussion. if there are issues with my recent edits, for example, let's discuss them. -- Asdfg 12345 04:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Just have to say that the constant removal of information about the persecution is really weird, even troubling. It's one of the most notable aspects of this topic, yet people constantly try to sideline it, all the while acknowledging that the persecution is real, apparently because they would not want to appear like CCP propagandists, but yet still forging ahead with edits that are inconsistent with this. Having no section here about the persecution, for example, is an example of this. I find it so disingenuous. It undermines the idea that we can have freewheeling and open discussion of all the issues on the pages. It's incredibly obvious that this is happening, and is a hugely notable aspect of the subject. I'm sure we could do some algorithms, searching through different media reports in large quantities and finding out how many have "persecution" and "torture" in them, for example. This would be an evidence-based way of establishing the notability and WP:DUEness of the various claims, taking it completely outside the scope of ideological stances. Who would be amenable to this sort of approach, in different circumstances? The only thing we'd have to discuss is the best ways to conduct the analyses and whta they should be. I could get a 10,000 source, 50meg html document and run some algorithms to compare how often different words appear, for example. I bet if I did this it would be clear the "persecution" turns up a whole lot. I'll put the section back later, and look at a lot of the other changes. I'm really pleased about some of the developments, but also concerned about others. The attempt to purge the pages of all reference to the persecution, for example, should be a big concern to anyone who upholds the principles of wikipedia, which most certainly does not cater to political censorship.-- Asdfg 12345 04:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
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help)I think Kavan's paper sums up the Falun Gong situation very succinctly and accurately. Although she may not have the same academic credentials as Ownby, large chunks of the paper is highly sourced and she only takes a more subjective stance towards the end. Colipon+( Talk) 16:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted everything to a better state. I'm sure that everyone except Ohconfucius will agree.-- FalunDafaDisciple ( talk) 19:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I saw there was a Photo of Falun Gong practitioners getting arrested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TiananmennBrutality.jpg in the article "People's Republic of China" and i thought that the photo would be more relevant here. But it got like immediately taken out again and after like a few months it also got taken out in the PRC article with the remark "Human rights: unnecessary and undesirable to use a propaganda photo to illustrate the article". And now i am like "WTF? why would this be called a propaganda photo?"
There actually thousands of picture like that (here are a example of a couple of hundred i found on a Falun Gong website http://photo.minghui.org/photo/Esitemap.htm) so there all propaganda? Why? Simply cause it's from a Falun Gong website? That's enough for categorically devaluing it as propaganda? So what they reenacted it all? Would be kinda hard to reenact it on Tiananmen square, wouldn't it? And the pictures of Labor camps there are fake too? You know they said the same thing about the holocaust... I am sorry but i am German an Germans tend to get pretty angry at remarks like that... (-:
BTW i am not the one who uploaded the picture or put it into the PRC article. -- Hoerth ( talk) 14:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Well most (not all but most) of the pictures where shot by Falun Gong Practitioners themselves - so i am pretty sure they are not gonna be against using them otherwise they wouldn't have put them on western internet anyway and put themselves in danger by having shot them. But of course i don't know them personally. There is only one picture on the Falun Gong website in which i do know the guy who shot it personally (and i know him very well and know that he is not opposed to it being posted on Wikipedia). It is this one: http://photo.minghui.org/photo/images/persecution_evidence/wuju/images/zhu_hang1_big.jpg http://photo.minghui.org/photo/images/persecution_evidence/wuju/images/zhu_hang2_big.jpg And this is the background storry: http://clearwisdom.net/emh/emhweekly/2005/12/11/2005-12-08-persecution.html#12 -- Hoerth ( talk) 16:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
@ Seb az86556: No you weren't the one who said "Human rights: unnecessary and undesirable to use a propaganda photo to illustrate the article". Ohconfucius said that when he removed the photo from the People's Republic of China page. But anyway I really don't care... I just thought the picture that i saw on the PRC article would be more appropriate here and i wanted to mention that if you guys want to have a picture relevent to the persecution that there is one where i know the background and have permission and that i could put up. That's all. -- Hoerth ( talk) 18:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
This bunch of unsubstantiated edits by HappyInGeneral ( talk · contribs) are disruptive to the great amount of progress that has been made so far by editors from all different walks of wiki who have dedicated time into this extremely contentious article. As such I will now revert it. If there are any grievances or issues arising from this please discuss. Colipon+( Talk) 22:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Is the category Category:Victims of Communist repressions in China really necessary?? It has one article - Falun Gong. Colipon+( Talk) 16:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Lets not blanket all these categories as "ridiculous" - if several notable topics come under the category, it might very well be deserving of an independent page. When we have categories as the ones here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Victims_of_political_repression , I see little reason why this one alone would become "ridiculous." Dilip rajeev ( talk) 05:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
A look into the background of professor Margaret Singer and it is clear that if she has an agenda, it is an anti-cult agenda, not a pro-Communist one. I removed the reference to Singer being "sympathetic to [the CCP's] goals". Even if there are some sources that paint Singer this way, inserting an awkward quote like this is highlights an undue connection between Singer and the Communists, which is not at all necessary given the context. If, perhaps, Singer was a Maoist herself or has notably supported CCP policies on other issues in the past, we can make this connection valid. But Singer has not demonstrated much of an explicit support for any anti-Falun Gong measures taken by the PRC government. She merely criticizes Falun Gong in its own right. Singer's Falun Gong writings have been noticeably less inflammatory than the CCP. This is the reason that even if this phrase or anything along the same vein is sourced, it is a poor representation of who Singer really is. Colipon+( Talk) 10:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
This is a good example of the type of discussion you should try to avoid regarding this topic. As John Carter points out, unless there is corroboration from reliable sources for the claim that Singer was pro-CCP we have no business putting it in an entry period. There is no need to get into this kind of mudslinging over such a simple issue. I wish I had been more clear headed myself when I commented earlier but the pro-CCP claim is a violation of WP:NOR. My advice is to stop attacking each other and move on to greener pastures. PelleSmith ( talk) 13:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. John Carter and PelleSmith make the points in clear terms and are the better voices of reason here. Moving on. Bedbug1122 ( talk) 19:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Having copyedited that article today I feel that the event has very notable and warrants inclusion in the main article. From looking at the different sources I get the impression that Chinese public opinion did not turn decisively against Falun Gong until the incident occurred in February 2001. It seems to have played a pivotal role in the Chinese government's media campaign against Falun Gong. Colipon+( Talk) 22:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, this may be a bit of a reach as well. We know that Li said karma was a substance physically found in the body. T his of course sounds to many westerners rather, well, odd. In Ownby's 2008 book, page 10, he states that during the qigong boom some well-known Chinese scientists claimed to have found the material existence of qi. Having this information included somewhere, probably the
qigong article, would probably be useful. It would maybe also help to reference it here, to establish that Li's claims are not unprecedented.
By the way, the PRC's record for science in this area is not exactly spotless. I know that in a collection of Skeptical Inquirer articles I read several years ago, as I remember a collection of Martin Gardner's pieces, there was one in which it reported how Chinese citizens were able to prove conclusively that they were able to identifiy hidden objects in sealed boxes. The fact that these psychics were allowed to take the boxes home with them at least overnight, and, in some cases, returned them physically damaged and with the seals open, was not of course something that the government saw fit to take into account in these studies.
John Carter (
talk) 17:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
The negative reporting bias is not isolated to Chinese Academia. In labs around the world research ethnics and the ego of individual researchers clash on a daily basis. Plus there is the very practical and well documented link between positive results and continued funding. The difference is, whereas in the west solid estimations can be made on the the rate of unreported failures due to its more transparent environment, in China, the added layer of government propaganda motivations make these figures hard to ascertain. Bedbug1122 ( talk) 23:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I have removed this series of POV edits by HappyInGeneral ( talk · contribs). I want to remind said user that this is not the first time such an edit has been attempted and it has been reverted multiple times by multiple users due to its selective quoting and POV nature. Please do not do it again, as it would certainly put your good faith into question. Colipon+( Talk) 22:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
That was a central piece of information sourced to the Amnesty International added to the article, and supported by a detailed citation - what is "POV" about it? The material is centrally relevant in that section as well. Could you please expand on why you label it "POV"? Am interested in knowing. Dilip rajeev ( talk) 19:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
In addition, the tone of said addition sounded more like a lecture than an article-section. I do not think we should assume that all readers of wikipedia are dumb sheep that need to be told what/how to think. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 22:47, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I also have a problem with the repeated insertion and unsourced reference to the Nazi swastika. I am not aware that FLG has ever been under attack for its use of the symbol, and I would say that such paranoia is completely unwarranted. What is more, the infobox is the last place such commentary should be. Ohconfucius ( talk) 06:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
The conjecturing in the last 2 sentences do seem inappropriate, but I'm not sure the Amnesty International ref isn't relevant to show the classification differences in China. Bedbug1122 ( talk) 19:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Question: Since you reverted again, can you please explain in detail how is a something that is reliably sourced from Amnesty.org and American.gov is less WP:N = WP:RELEVANT, WP:NPOV here then "Chan 2004", "Irons, Edward. 2003", "Kaven"? Thank you! -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 16:59, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
If the page on persecution of FLG is semi-protected, why is the main article free for new users and IP users to edit? This makes very little sense to me, especially in light of recent vandalism by sockpuppets of FalunGongDisciple. Colipon+( Talk) 18:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
I think there should be a good place where the swastika can be explained. Otherwise visually this symbol can be confused with the Nazi symbol, see here: [7]. I'll get more research on this, but as I talked with people that was their first confusion. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 11:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello Simon,
I see that you reverted this edit the point of that edit was to remove duplicate content in refs and merge it under the same refid. Could you please merge them as you see fit? Thank you! -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 16:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Could we exchange views on the value of Kavan's inclusion here? So far the only way I've seen it explained is that it's a good criticism of Falun Gong. I understood that the purpose of the section was to explain what reliable sources have to say about the cult label with relation to Falun Gong. Kavan is one proponent of the fringe theory that Falun Gong is a cult, and that it's doctrine and founder are manipulative. A similar sort of metric to the one above could be applied here. She appears to be one of two scholars who hold this view. Every other takes Falun Gong at face value: a free set of teachings, more or less. "Manupilative" is also a vague word in this context, and unfortunately Kavan never explains how it is that Falun Gong doctrine is manipulative, or what it means to have a manipulative doctrine. Does she mean that Falun Gong doctrine is untrue, but claims to be true, so it therefore manipulates people into believing it? Just guessing, not sure. I have read her study more than once, btw. For a view like this, which is without peers, how does its inclusion sit with WP:DUE? DUE calls for not representing minority views as though they were majority views--but not explaining that a view is minority, readers may mistakenly think that it's widely held. Perhaps, if we include her note, we could also have a sentence which explains that this view is not held by mainstream academics, and that most see Falun Gong as a (presumably non-manipulative) set of beliefs and teachings. We can use some language from Ownby or Penny. Falun Gong isn't the only group who regards Falun Gong as a "practice system." Most scholars of Falun Gong also believe that. As a temporary measure I just included Kohn's remarks about Falun Gong; Kohn is much more qualified than Kavan to comment on such issues. If everyone is happy, we can either remove Kavan, or include a couple of sentences to put her views in the context of most academic views on the subject.-- Asdfg 12345 20:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Okay, the explanations are understandable. Keep in mind, however, that Kavan is expressing a fringe theory, and what she says should be taken on that basis. If you are saying that she has a different stance from Singer, then that makes her the only academic to hold her views--I had thought she was birds of a feather with Margaret, which at least gave them safety in numbers. It's unclear, then, why each academic gets a sentence to spout their personal theory, when DUE clearly explains that mainstream views should be explained more prominently. Two things remain: that minority views are not being presented as minority views; and that majority views are continually being pulled out of the article. Let me read what's been written above.-- Asdfg 12345 16:46, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
But we don't need to resort to this vague armwaving of what we feel "lay-observers" believe when we have access to the academic sources available. Let's just go with what we can. The data is imperfect, but it's pretty good. We have access to just about most things academics have said about Falun Gong. Part of it is listed above. I don't understand the continual deferral of the question. It just seems like it's so obvious this is a fringe theory but no one wants to admit it. -- Asdfg 12345 18:05, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
This bunch of edits make it seem awfully obvious that Asdfg12345 ( talk · contribs) has made it his mission on this page to whitewash the article of critical content, and has done so now for about three years. Whenever there is reliably sourced critical content, he resorts to firebombing the section with content singing praise for Falun Gong. His paranoia of erasing all content with a hint of criticism on Falun Gong is perhaps best represented through this edit summary. Note that all of his edits dealt with sections that contain criticism of FLG. As these edits so obviously fail WP:NPOV, I would like to revert to an earlier revision. However, reverting specific edits is no longer possible because of intervening edits. As you can see, this is severely discouraging and it would seem to be a mistake to waste my valuable hours on trying to fight Falun Gong adherents editing Falun Gong articles. As I am running out of energy here with all of these bullshit circular discussions, WP:AE would seem like the best path now. Colipon+( Talk) 17:49, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Have I violated any wikipedia content policies? Anyone is free to edit these pages. There are guidelines for how to do so. I don't believe I've violated any of them. I've made very, very few edits to these pages over the last couple of months. Nor have I characterised your or Ohconfucius's, or anyone elses edits, the converse of how you describe mine. We have our own perspectives on this issue, and this comes through in how we edit the pages. The key is to engage in proper discussion, cite our sources, cite policy, and just be rational, fair, and assume good faith. You are free to make modifications to my modifications. Wikipedia is an ongoing, evolving thing. No one version is absolute or the best. It's all a process. Feel free to make a positive and constructive contribution to the article--that's all I'm trying to do.-- Asdfg 12345 18:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry? What is problematic about what I wrote?-- Asdfg 12345 18:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
btw, about the image complaint, I think that's fair enough. Ohconfucius removes images based on his impression that they are promotional; I think it's fair to remove them based on their giving a misleading impression to the reader--particularly when an image in that section isn't even particularly conducive to the reader understanding it. -- Asdfg 12345 18:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
It wasn't meant to be a personal comment, dude, I was trying to draw a reasonable parallel that is understandable for people.-- Asdfg 12345 14:49, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Great, another trail of destruction to the hard work of a very diverse group of editors over the past few months. I don't even know what to say. Colipon+( Talk) 22:13, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Estimates of Falun Gong membership is extremely varied, and not what is currently being presented in the article. At the time of the crackdown in 1999, Falun Gong claimed 100 members (clearwisdom) while official state sources ranged from 30 to 80 million (People's daily). Post-crackdown numbers range anywhere from 2 million to Falun Gong's original claim of 100 million. The 2-million estimate can be reliably drawn from the number of regular Falun Gong practitioners who engage in "public" exercise and in proselytizing the "Fa", something they are required to do by Li. Therefore, it is safe to assume that the vast majority of Falun Gong practitioners are visible in public. 100 million would mean the number of FLG practitioners outnumber people living in Canada more than three-fold. Kavan estimates the number of Falun Gong practitioners in New Zealand (a FLG haven, out of just over 4 million people) to be a few hundred at best. The number for 100 million is simply not credible, given that Falun Gong claims to not have any organization and method of tracking members. NRMs are known to exaggerate membership, and my impression from scholarly works (especially Tong) is that as of 2009, a number like '100 million' is vastly exaggerated. Colipon+( Talk) 08:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Ohconf, you are blatantly distorting the facts. Nine Commentaries are way better than anything the communists made!-- FalunDafaDisciple ( talk) 18:53, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
That might sound like a stupid question, but David Onby indicates on page 4 of Falun Gong and the Future of China that there is "no consensus regarding the fundamental character of the group", and mentions as specific ideas put forward a "cultivation system", "heterodox cult", "spiritual movement", "new religious movement", and "a practice combining meditation and breathing exercises with a doctrine loosely rooted in Buddhist and Taoise teachings." Should the lede be adjusted to more clearly reflect that there is no clearly agreed upon definition of the nature of the group? John Carter ( talk) 15:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Another thing reverted here [1] is the estimate wording. Falun Gong has no membership, so nobody can claim any number of practitioners, the best that it can do is to estimate how many practitioners there are based statistics like this: [2]. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 10:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
“ | Falun Dafa guides people to cultivate their xinxing to be good people according to the characteristics of the universe, Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance, fundamentally eliminating illnesses, cleansing people's hearts, purifying their souls, and leading people on the path to returning to their original, true selves. Within seven years, Dafa had spread widely across China. More than one hundred million people practiced it. | ” |
Perhaps I am just being skeptical, but none of this chunk of text lends much credibility for an "estimate". It is a "claim" at best. One could even argue that within the context it is presented, it doesn't belong in the lede at all. Colipon+( Talk) 01:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
The cult section has been slowly unbalanced and turned POV. Editing has also left it downright misleading in parts. It now makes it appear that there the "cult" perspective on FG in academia is at least on par with the perspective that does not use the cult label which is grossly inaccurate. It also makes it seem like the reason for not using the label has more to do with politics than with scholarly veracity which is also innaccurate. Who calls them a cult other than Kavan (whose expertise has nothing to do with the classification of social groups) and Singer (whose theories are fringe)? To make matters worse the connection between Singer and the ACM has been categorically removed and now this misleading gem of a sentence appears
Scholars reject brainwashing theories, in total, and not simply those "of the Anti-cult movement". The reference I provided specifically mentions Singer and her colleagues, meaning Singer and other psychologists who promoted these theories. And why was Kavan removed at the end of the sentence as well? they do not use the term the way Singer and Kavan do. Didn't I make it abundantly clear that Kavan's definition of "cult" has no resemblance to academic definitions outside the anti-cult leaning academic fringe? As I've said before, as long as this kind of manipulation of balance exists there will always be edit warring because even the pro-FLG editors are pushing back against POV. And you know what, at least their POV is obvious, open and easy to identify. I'm not going to edit this entry again as I said above, but it would be nice to at least hear someone refute what I have said instead of just ignoring then subtly pushing this anti-cult POV into the entry. PelleSmith ( talk) 11:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Pelle, all I can suggest is just to stick around. Just take a detached approach, don't worry about the outcome, and focus on the process and on taking each step well. It's clear that there is manipulation and POV-pushing here, and I've even done this in the past, like cherry-picking quotes, thinking that this is a good idea because it agrees with my philosophical proclivities with regard to the subject, etc.. I refuse to do this anymore. Anyway, it's plain to see who is doing it and when, and through the process of discussion, dissecting edits, and so on, people's consistency and credibility gets revealed. Those trying to game the system long term will fail, and they'll get banned. My advice is to approach things in a detached way, just keep doing what you're doing. The other side of the coin is not to always first assume ideological motivations when people raise concerns that would appear to fit in with what their suspected proclivities are. It would be easier if we were non-emotional beings.-- Asdfg 12345 03:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Below I suggest listing scholars who use the "cult" label to describe Falun Gong and those that do not. More explicitly those who use other descriptors instead. After this it may be helpful to break out those who do not into those who explicitly disagree with the label in regards to Falun Gong and why. I have started this for you. In case there is any confusion I put the sources in parentheses when I found them on my own outside of what is in this entry so they could be verified. PelleSmith ( talk) 13:02, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Use cult
Don't use cult
On the flip side of the same coin, academics do not explicitly label Falun Gong a "cult" for a wide variety of reasons. One of the most important reasons is that "cult" carries with it extremely negative connotations, and another is that it would place these academics on par with the Chinese government, whose charges against Falun Gong are exaggerated and politically motivated. However, many academics who distance themselves from CCP views (including Ownby, Chan, Irons, Burgdoff, Rahn, etc) are critical of Falun Gong in its various aspects.
In retrospect, perhaps it was not appropriate to zoom in public debate on the "cult" question alone, but rather on the more broad question of Falun Gong's controversies in their entirety. To the average reader, a summary of who thinks Falun Gong is a cult and who does not does little to contextualize the views of Falun Gong's critics (i.e. academic criticism, not just negative criticism). It is for this reason that I propose the section be re-worked into smaller sections, renamed "Public debate", and if necessary, build an article for Criticism of Falun Gong. I realize that a section like this would lead to an uproar and POV wars, but it is not an excuse to not give Criticism of Falun Gong due weight in the articles. Colipon+( Talk) 18:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
It's unclear why a name like "criticism and controversies" would be more desireable than "reception." The first is negative, the latter is neither positive nor negative. If there were a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies, to maintain a neutral point of view, would there then also be a section called "agreements and praise"? Silly, right? Why the proclivity for argument and criticism rather than consensus and praise? I don't understand, I think it should just be called reception, which includes all points of view, and let's get on with life. The list of cult/non-cult academics is useful; there may be another list of academics which disavow the cultic label in terms of Falun Gong. I think it would be longer and of a higher quality than the pro-cult list. This, to me, shows that it is a minority view as defined by wikipedia policies.-- Asdfg 12345 03:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
made some changes. I really appreciate how there are these different streams of debate going on in these pages now. the pro-FLG pov is being cleaned up, which is good. let's be wary of going too far the other way though as a reaction. i will really do my best to put aside time each day to come and edit and participate in discussion. if there are issues with my recent edits, for example, let's discuss them. -- Asdfg 12345 04:08, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Just have to say that the constant removal of information about the persecution is really weird, even troubling. It's one of the most notable aspects of this topic, yet people constantly try to sideline it, all the while acknowledging that the persecution is real, apparently because they would not want to appear like CCP propagandists, but yet still forging ahead with edits that are inconsistent with this. Having no section here about the persecution, for example, is an example of this. I find it so disingenuous. It undermines the idea that we can have freewheeling and open discussion of all the issues on the pages. It's incredibly obvious that this is happening, and is a hugely notable aspect of the subject. I'm sure we could do some algorithms, searching through different media reports in large quantities and finding out how many have "persecution" and "torture" in them, for example. This would be an evidence-based way of establishing the notability and WP:DUEness of the various claims, taking it completely outside the scope of ideological stances. Who would be amenable to this sort of approach, in different circumstances? The only thing we'd have to discuss is the best ways to conduct the analyses and whta they should be. I could get a 10,000 source, 50meg html document and run some algorithms to compare how often different words appear, for example. I bet if I did this it would be clear the "persecution" turns up a whole lot. I'll put the section back later, and look at a lot of the other changes. I'm really pleased about some of the developments, but also concerned about others. The attempt to purge the pages of all reference to the persecution, for example, should be a big concern to anyone who upholds the principles of wikipedia, which most certainly does not cater to political censorship.-- Asdfg 12345 04:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
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help)I think Kavan's paper sums up the Falun Gong situation very succinctly and accurately. Although she may not have the same academic credentials as Ownby, large chunks of the paper is highly sourced and she only takes a more subjective stance towards the end. Colipon+( Talk) 16:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted everything to a better state. I'm sure that everyone except Ohconfucius will agree.-- FalunDafaDisciple ( talk) 19:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
I saw there was a Photo of Falun Gong practitioners getting arrested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TiananmennBrutality.jpg in the article "People's Republic of China" and i thought that the photo would be more relevant here. But it got like immediately taken out again and after like a few months it also got taken out in the PRC article with the remark "Human rights: unnecessary and undesirable to use a propaganda photo to illustrate the article". And now i am like "WTF? why would this be called a propaganda photo?"
There actually thousands of picture like that (here are a example of a couple of hundred i found on a Falun Gong website http://photo.minghui.org/photo/Esitemap.htm) so there all propaganda? Why? Simply cause it's from a Falun Gong website? That's enough for categorically devaluing it as propaganda? So what they reenacted it all? Would be kinda hard to reenact it on Tiananmen square, wouldn't it? And the pictures of Labor camps there are fake too? You know they said the same thing about the holocaust... I am sorry but i am German an Germans tend to get pretty angry at remarks like that... (-:
BTW i am not the one who uploaded the picture or put it into the PRC article. -- Hoerth ( talk) 14:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Well most (not all but most) of the pictures where shot by Falun Gong Practitioners themselves - so i am pretty sure they are not gonna be against using them otherwise they wouldn't have put them on western internet anyway and put themselves in danger by having shot them. But of course i don't know them personally. There is only one picture on the Falun Gong website in which i do know the guy who shot it personally (and i know him very well and know that he is not opposed to it being posted on Wikipedia). It is this one: http://photo.minghui.org/photo/images/persecution_evidence/wuju/images/zhu_hang1_big.jpg http://photo.minghui.org/photo/images/persecution_evidence/wuju/images/zhu_hang2_big.jpg And this is the background storry: http://clearwisdom.net/emh/emhweekly/2005/12/11/2005-12-08-persecution.html#12 -- Hoerth ( talk) 16:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
@ Seb az86556: No you weren't the one who said "Human rights: unnecessary and undesirable to use a propaganda photo to illustrate the article". Ohconfucius said that when he removed the photo from the People's Republic of China page. But anyway I really don't care... I just thought the picture that i saw on the PRC article would be more appropriate here and i wanted to mention that if you guys want to have a picture relevent to the persecution that there is one where i know the background and have permission and that i could put up. That's all. -- Hoerth ( talk) 18:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
This bunch of unsubstantiated edits by HappyInGeneral ( talk · contribs) are disruptive to the great amount of progress that has been made so far by editors from all different walks of wiki who have dedicated time into this extremely contentious article. As such I will now revert it. If there are any grievances or issues arising from this please discuss. Colipon+( Talk) 22:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Is the category Category:Victims of Communist repressions in China really necessary?? It has one article - Falun Gong. Colipon+( Talk) 16:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Lets not blanket all these categories as "ridiculous" - if several notable topics come under the category, it might very well be deserving of an independent page. When we have categories as the ones here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Victims_of_political_repression , I see little reason why this one alone would become "ridiculous." Dilip rajeev ( talk) 05:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
A look into the background of professor Margaret Singer and it is clear that if she has an agenda, it is an anti-cult agenda, not a pro-Communist one. I removed the reference to Singer being "sympathetic to [the CCP's] goals". Even if there are some sources that paint Singer this way, inserting an awkward quote like this is highlights an undue connection between Singer and the Communists, which is not at all necessary given the context. If, perhaps, Singer was a Maoist herself or has notably supported CCP policies on other issues in the past, we can make this connection valid. But Singer has not demonstrated much of an explicit support for any anti-Falun Gong measures taken by the PRC government. She merely criticizes Falun Gong in its own right. Singer's Falun Gong writings have been noticeably less inflammatory than the CCP. This is the reason that even if this phrase or anything along the same vein is sourced, it is a poor representation of who Singer really is. Colipon+( Talk) 10:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
This is a good example of the type of discussion you should try to avoid regarding this topic. As John Carter points out, unless there is corroboration from reliable sources for the claim that Singer was pro-CCP we have no business putting it in an entry period. There is no need to get into this kind of mudslinging over such a simple issue. I wish I had been more clear headed myself when I commented earlier but the pro-CCP claim is a violation of WP:NOR. My advice is to stop attacking each other and move on to greener pastures. PelleSmith ( talk) 13:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. John Carter and PelleSmith make the points in clear terms and are the better voices of reason here. Moving on. Bedbug1122 ( talk) 19:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Having copyedited that article today I feel that the event has very notable and warrants inclusion in the main article. From looking at the different sources I get the impression that Chinese public opinion did not turn decisively against Falun Gong until the incident occurred in February 2001. It seems to have played a pivotal role in the Chinese government's media campaign against Falun Gong. Colipon+( Talk) 22:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, this may be a bit of a reach as well. We know that Li said karma was a substance physically found in the body. T his of course sounds to many westerners rather, well, odd. In Ownby's 2008 book, page 10, he states that during the qigong boom some well-known Chinese scientists claimed to have found the material existence of qi. Having this information included somewhere, probably the
qigong article, would probably be useful. It would maybe also help to reference it here, to establish that Li's claims are not unprecedented.
By the way, the PRC's record for science in this area is not exactly spotless. I know that in a collection of Skeptical Inquirer articles I read several years ago, as I remember a collection of Martin Gardner's pieces, there was one in which it reported how Chinese citizens were able to prove conclusively that they were able to identifiy hidden objects in sealed boxes. The fact that these psychics were allowed to take the boxes home with them at least overnight, and, in some cases, returned them physically damaged and with the seals open, was not of course something that the government saw fit to take into account in these studies.
John Carter (
talk) 17:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
The negative reporting bias is not isolated to Chinese Academia. In labs around the world research ethnics and the ego of individual researchers clash on a daily basis. Plus there is the very practical and well documented link between positive results and continued funding. The difference is, whereas in the west solid estimations can be made on the the rate of unreported failures due to its more transparent environment, in China, the added layer of government propaganda motivations make these figures hard to ascertain. Bedbug1122 ( talk) 23:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
I have removed this series of POV edits by HappyInGeneral ( talk · contribs). I want to remind said user that this is not the first time such an edit has been attempted and it has been reverted multiple times by multiple users due to its selective quoting and POV nature. Please do not do it again, as it would certainly put your good faith into question. Colipon+( Talk) 22:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
That was a central piece of information sourced to the Amnesty International added to the article, and supported by a detailed citation - what is "POV" about it? The material is centrally relevant in that section as well. Could you please expand on why you label it "POV"? Am interested in knowing. Dilip rajeev ( talk) 19:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
In addition, the tone of said addition sounded more like a lecture than an article-section. I do not think we should assume that all readers of wikipedia are dumb sheep that need to be told what/how to think. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 22:47, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I also have a problem with the repeated insertion and unsourced reference to the Nazi swastika. I am not aware that FLG has ever been under attack for its use of the symbol, and I would say that such paranoia is completely unwarranted. What is more, the infobox is the last place such commentary should be. Ohconfucius ( talk) 06:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
The conjecturing in the last 2 sentences do seem inappropriate, but I'm not sure the Amnesty International ref isn't relevant to show the classification differences in China. Bedbug1122 ( talk) 19:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Question: Since you reverted again, can you please explain in detail how is a something that is reliably sourced from Amnesty.org and American.gov is less WP:N = WP:RELEVANT, WP:NPOV here then "Chan 2004", "Irons, Edward. 2003", "Kaven"? Thank you! -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 16:59, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
If the page on persecution of FLG is semi-protected, why is the main article free for new users and IP users to edit? This makes very little sense to me, especially in light of recent vandalism by sockpuppets of FalunGongDisciple. Colipon+( Talk) 18:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
I think there should be a good place where the swastika can be explained. Otherwise visually this symbol can be confused with the Nazi symbol, see here: [7]. I'll get more research on this, but as I talked with people that was their first confusion. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 11:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello Simon,
I see that you reverted this edit the point of that edit was to remove duplicate content in refs and merge it under the same refid. Could you please merge them as you see fit? Thank you! -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 16:42, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Could we exchange views on the value of Kavan's inclusion here? So far the only way I've seen it explained is that it's a good criticism of Falun Gong. I understood that the purpose of the section was to explain what reliable sources have to say about the cult label with relation to Falun Gong. Kavan is one proponent of the fringe theory that Falun Gong is a cult, and that it's doctrine and founder are manipulative. A similar sort of metric to the one above could be applied here. She appears to be one of two scholars who hold this view. Every other takes Falun Gong at face value: a free set of teachings, more or less. "Manupilative" is also a vague word in this context, and unfortunately Kavan never explains how it is that Falun Gong doctrine is manipulative, or what it means to have a manipulative doctrine. Does she mean that Falun Gong doctrine is untrue, but claims to be true, so it therefore manipulates people into believing it? Just guessing, not sure. I have read her study more than once, btw. For a view like this, which is without peers, how does its inclusion sit with WP:DUE? DUE calls for not representing minority views as though they were majority views--but not explaining that a view is minority, readers may mistakenly think that it's widely held. Perhaps, if we include her note, we could also have a sentence which explains that this view is not held by mainstream academics, and that most see Falun Gong as a (presumably non-manipulative) set of beliefs and teachings. We can use some language from Ownby or Penny. Falun Gong isn't the only group who regards Falun Gong as a "practice system." Most scholars of Falun Gong also believe that. As a temporary measure I just included Kohn's remarks about Falun Gong; Kohn is much more qualified than Kavan to comment on such issues. If everyone is happy, we can either remove Kavan, or include a couple of sentences to put her views in the context of most academic views on the subject.-- Asdfg 12345 20:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Okay, the explanations are understandable. Keep in mind, however, that Kavan is expressing a fringe theory, and what she says should be taken on that basis. If you are saying that she has a different stance from Singer, then that makes her the only academic to hold her views--I had thought she was birds of a feather with Margaret, which at least gave them safety in numbers. It's unclear, then, why each academic gets a sentence to spout their personal theory, when DUE clearly explains that mainstream views should be explained more prominently. Two things remain: that minority views are not being presented as minority views; and that majority views are continually being pulled out of the article. Let me read what's been written above.-- Asdfg 12345 16:46, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
But we don't need to resort to this vague armwaving of what we feel "lay-observers" believe when we have access to the academic sources available. Let's just go with what we can. The data is imperfect, but it's pretty good. We have access to just about most things academics have said about Falun Gong. Part of it is listed above. I don't understand the continual deferral of the question. It just seems like it's so obvious this is a fringe theory but no one wants to admit it. -- Asdfg 12345 18:05, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
This bunch of edits make it seem awfully obvious that Asdfg12345 ( talk · contribs) has made it his mission on this page to whitewash the article of critical content, and has done so now for about three years. Whenever there is reliably sourced critical content, he resorts to firebombing the section with content singing praise for Falun Gong. His paranoia of erasing all content with a hint of criticism on Falun Gong is perhaps best represented through this edit summary. Note that all of his edits dealt with sections that contain criticism of FLG. As these edits so obviously fail WP:NPOV, I would like to revert to an earlier revision. However, reverting specific edits is no longer possible because of intervening edits. As you can see, this is severely discouraging and it would seem to be a mistake to waste my valuable hours on trying to fight Falun Gong adherents editing Falun Gong articles. As I am running out of energy here with all of these bullshit circular discussions, WP:AE would seem like the best path now. Colipon+( Talk) 17:49, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Have I violated any wikipedia content policies? Anyone is free to edit these pages. There are guidelines for how to do so. I don't believe I've violated any of them. I've made very, very few edits to these pages over the last couple of months. Nor have I characterised your or Ohconfucius's, or anyone elses edits, the converse of how you describe mine. We have our own perspectives on this issue, and this comes through in how we edit the pages. The key is to engage in proper discussion, cite our sources, cite policy, and just be rational, fair, and assume good faith. You are free to make modifications to my modifications. Wikipedia is an ongoing, evolving thing. No one version is absolute or the best. It's all a process. Feel free to make a positive and constructive contribution to the article--that's all I'm trying to do.-- Asdfg 12345 18:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry? What is problematic about what I wrote?-- Asdfg 12345 18:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
btw, about the image complaint, I think that's fair enough. Ohconfucius removes images based on his impression that they are promotional; I think it's fair to remove them based on their giving a misleading impression to the reader--particularly when an image in that section isn't even particularly conducive to the reader understanding it. -- Asdfg 12345 18:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
It wasn't meant to be a personal comment, dude, I was trying to draw a reasonable parallel that is understandable for people.-- Asdfg 12345 14:49, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Great, another trail of destruction to the hard work of a very diverse group of editors over the past few months. I don't even know what to say. Colipon+( Talk) 22:13, 3 October 2009 (UTC)