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The intro is very long. I think the best way to trim it down to more reasonable length would be to remove a lot of the detail from the longest paragraph, the current fourth one, on post-1999 persecution of FG. Thoughts? Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 15:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Do we all agree that the persecution of Falun Gong by the Chinese Communist Party is notable enough that it should be mentioned in the lede? I'm pretty sure we all do, but against the background of current events, perhaps a show of hands would be best, after which we can discuss the size and length of that inclusion.
I was just wondering, but does this qualify as an academic source? --> [1] -- Edward130603 ( talk) 23:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Don't know whether the anti-Falun Gong propaganda website run by the Party is reliable in and of itself? Confucius didn't even dirty his hands with "Two Tales." ... -- Asdfg 12345 15:30, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I wish to pose a question to editors here about this segment:
My view on this matter is that the organ harvesting are rightly, only allegations, and many third-party sources have debunked much of the claims made by Kilgour-Matas. They have been sensationalized by Falun Gong media outlets and their importance vastly exaggerated. In addition, the use of circumstantial evidence on the report makes it inappropriate for us to "conclude" that this is fact, and readily present it as such in the intro.
Therefore, we have a few options. Add the counter-claims to the report, which I am against, or remove it from the lede and place it rightly under its own section, in its own article, or its sister article "persecution of FLG". Of course, as the consensus may be, we can also just keep the revision as is. Lend me your opinions. Colipon+( Talk) 17:37, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Question: What do you think should be done about the "Organ Harvesting" section in the lede? (Please answer with Counter-claim, Remove, shorten, or nothing)
2009 (UTC)
It's a notable topic, and its inclusion is not based on Simonm223's personal feelings about the credentials of the authors or the quality of their report.-- Asdfg 12345 17:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I was asked by Vassayana to review the article and dispute as an uninvolved editor. My approach on this has been to read the article itself without looking at the controversies on the talk page. I should say that my knowledge of Falun Gong is limited to some material from Amnesty, the odd sighting of a protest in various cities around the world and general knowledge. I do have some knowledge of religions and other sects and a general concern about cults and pseudo-science.
My overall conclusions is the article shows al the signs of having grown piecemeal though multiple additions and edit wars and is in need of a radical rewrite. I have noted my comments by section below, but overall I would recommend that a small group of uninvolved editors be asked to do a basic editing job on it, to produce a sandbox version for comment and thus create a fresh start (happy to be involved in that). In my experience (and I speak as a sinner here) when an article gets controversial, a lot of words and phrases become symbolic battle grounds and its difficult or impossible for those editors to really stand back. Of course its preferable for the existing active editors to do that, but I don't see any evidence that it is likely anytime soon
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Lede
Excessively long, some of the material is dubious or inappropriate, for instance:
The paragraphs on membership and the issues of torture and imprisonment should be moved to the body (section on persecution) with a single paragraph summary in the lede. The definition as a spiritual practice in the opening sentence is only supported by a newspaper article. Elsewhere the claims of the movement to be a new form of science would seem to argue for a different phrasing. The lede does not really summarise the history or properly set the context for later disputes with the government
Beliefs & teachings This section needs a radical rewrite. At the moment it reads as a series of statements from different scholars (including uncited claims such as “leading”). A lot of this section sounds like a sales document, rather than a summary of the movement. It could be easily reduced to about half its current length. The essence seems the mixture of ethics, science, mysticism, but it not fully differentiated from Qigong. Its not clear if FG is a sect or off branch on Qigon, or a whole new movement for which Qigong is one of the sources.
Theoretical Background This should be merged into Beliefs and Teaching. A summary of Qigong, in so far as it relates to FG could easily be an introductory paragraphs to the beliefs & teachings sections. There is no need for an elaboration of China’s experiments in science which belong elsewhere. Other sources for FG, such as the other Chinese Texts (the Tao etc) need citation to show that they were used, and any modifications or changes as a result (a generic reference has no real meaning other than as a claim)
Quigong & beyond As above, this needs to be split up between the history section (it originally surfaced in …) and beliefs & teaching where it has some good summary elements. The point that quigong may appear religious to western eyes is valid, but not relevant to a FG article (I could point to other
History, persecution and protest Beginnings needs to be summarised to about half the current length. Some of this material should be in an improved ledge (the origins in official practice and support from the government of China for example) The section on Ideological and social context is far too long. There is a lot of speculation as to the historical context which is hardly supported by references and where supported there are clear questions of weight. Most of the material relates to reasons for acceptance and “growth”, and there seems to be some confusion here between FG per se, and other religious and social movements in China. This could easily become one to two paragraphs. The section on Persecution contains material that should be in the history section, for example the ban itself (which does need a full quotation). The response of Li Hongzhi does not need to be quoted in full, and the speculation as to reasons (although cited) needs radical editing. In effet all of the first part of this section, down to methods of persecution needs to go, in shortened form, into the history section. A new section on persecution, can then take material from the lede (I think persecution is an OK term as it is cited but I am not sure it is a NPOV). There is a lot of repetition and verbiage in this section that looks as if it has grown willy nilly over the years. Organ farming should be a paragraph within the section on persecution. The protests section should also be incorporated into this section.
Reception
This seems to be a summary of academic and related writing about FG. We have the common practice on disputed articles of credentials being challenged etc. Overall this section just requires a new title and some tightening up but is informative and cited. -- Snowded TALK 20:38, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
What was the point of sticking a big box around this stuff??-- Asdfg 12345 17:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Below is my draft for a new section detailing the different ways in which the word cult has been used in relation to Falun Gong. I see it as going in place of the "reception" section since it basically covers the same turf in a more coherent way, and with less propensity for simply stating "these guys think its wonderful" and "these guys think it sucks". I am of curse open to suggestions of combining the reception section with this section in some way if that should be judged to be desirable. And suggestions for improvements are more than welcome.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A returning issue in relation to the Falun Gong is whether the movement should be classified as a cult or not. The opinions about this usage has varied from time to time and from one discursive frame to another. Adam Frank has identified several frames of discourse about Falun gong that each differ in the way they describe the movement and also in their choice to label or not to label the movement as a cult. Frank distinguishes the discursive frames of the western media, the Chinese media, an emerging scholarly tradition, the discourse of Human rights groups and a symptathetic practice based discourse.
The issue goes back to the rhetorics used by the PRC government when imposing the 1999 ban on Falun Gong. In their statements the Chinese government repeatedly classified them as a xiejiao, normally translated into English as an "evil cult"(Chan 2004, Irons 2003). The term has been used by the Chinese government since 1949 about groups classified as harmful to social stability.(Irons 2003) Arguing for the dangerousness of Falun Gong it asserted that Falun Gong mixed Qigong with superstition and doomsday fallacies, which threatened and damaged the physical and psychic health of the chinese people and the social stability of China.( [2]) The statements compared Falun Gong to the Branch Davidian and Aum Shinrikyo, both New Religious movements that had recently received large amounts of negative media attention.
The movement itself of course denies being an "evil cult" and in fact denies being a religion at all, preferring to characterize it self as a "practice system" (source)
When the movement first attracted the attention of western media, largely through the chinese governments statements, it was widely described by the word cult. Often the term was combined with descriptions of Falun Gong practices that have been characterised as "vague exoticism"(Frank 2004:241). Media mogul Rupert Murdoch, echoed the Chinese government when he described Falun gong as a "dangerous" and "apocalyptic cult" that "clearly does not have China's succes at heart".(Frank 2004:243) Similar statements have also been common in the Chinese media's treatment of Falun Gong.(Frank 243-44) Western media however quickly changed this usage to less loaded terms.(Kipnis 2001)
Falun Gong has also attracted the attention of cult-watching groups in China and in the west. Cult-watch groups usually apply a negative definition of the word cult particularly defining it as groups that use "brainwashing" techniques and generally assert strong control of the personal lives of their indvidual members. Controversial psychologist Margaret Singer, who works for cult-watching groups in the US and has worked particularly on "brainwashing" phenomena and "deprogramming" of ex-cult members (Lewis 2004), has characterized Falun Gong as a cult, and mentioned that she has been approached by concerned family members of Falun Gong practicioners. [1] Commenting on the general insistence of Cult Watching groups to classify most New Religious Movements as brainwashing cults, sociologists such as Eileen Barker have argued that labelling people as cultists serve little other purpose than to dehumanize certain groups in society, which may in turn lead to violence.(Barker 145)
In sociology the term cult has been subject to varied attempts at definition. At times it has been proposed that cults distinguish themselves by being culturally novel, that is by being culturally new phenomena, not drawing from the larger cultural historical background of their host society.(Bainbridge 1997) Whether or not Falun Gong qualifies as a cult on that account has been questioned, and it comes down to the importance assigned to Falun Gong's roots in the general Qigong tradition. Some scholars have stressed the movements ties to the Qigong tradition (Ownby 2008:163, Zhao, [2]) whereas others (Irons 2003) have stressed the syncretic combination of different philosophical traditions resultingly construing Falun Gong as a completely new phenomenon in China. At other times a cult has been defined as being characterised by a focus on the individual rather than the collective, or by having fuzzy membership boundaries, or a charismatic leader. In this way the question of whether or not Falun Gong qualifies as a cult depends on the definition used. For example, Chan (2004) uses the definition of cult as a new religious movement that focuses on the individual experience of the encounter with the sacred more than on collective worship, and that is less demanding of their members than sects, and more tolerant of other religions, that has a strong charismatic leadership and fuzzy membership boundaries. Based on these criteria she concludes that from a sociological perspective Falun Gong is neither a cult nor a sect, but a New Religious Movement with Cult-like characteristics.(Chan 2004:682)
For the sake of objectivity, however, many scholars choose to avoid the term cult altogether, arguing that "the term cult is useless, and should be avoided because of the confusion between the historic meaning of the term and current pejorative use"(Richardson 1993, Bainbridge 1997:24) Often academic studies choose to employ less loaded terminology like "spiritual movement" or "new religious movement" when describing Falun Gong, both to avoid the negative connations of the word cult and because the movement does not fit easily into standard definitions of the cult category.(Frank 292) Another reason scholars sometimes avoid the word cult is its possible, unintended political ramifications: By classifying certain religious movements as cults or sects rather than religions, governments may be able to deny them the special privileges and legal protection that are normally offered to religious denominations. [3] Or they may even, as in the case of the Chinese government's relation to Falun Gong, use the classification as a justification for agressively persecuting a religious movement's members. (Edelman & Richardson 2003:321)
This is a very good write-up. Very well sourced and examines the subject from a neutral perspective without resorting to the chronic wiki issue of "she said this but here's why she is wrong". With a few mechanical fixes I think it definitely belongs in the article once the edit protection is lifted. Good work, Maunus. Colipon+( Talk) 02:24, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Excellent work, Maunus. Let's get this into the article ASAP. Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 10:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
It's not bad, but a reference to the Edelman/Richardson article that we've discussed extensively is more than relevant for this kind of treatise. It is mentioned in the sources, but not made use of in the body text. Also, David Ownby's views should be mentioned here, as long as we choose which quote to use. Ownby says in the preface of his book Falun Gong and the Future of China: "The entire issue of the supposed cultic nature of Falun Gong was a red herring from the beginning, cleverly exploited by the Chinese state to blunt the appeal of Falun Gong and the effectiveness of the group's activities outside of China." (p. ix) Apparently he considers this issue so important that he advices his readers about it before they even start reading the rest of the book. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 12:17, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Should the section perhaps mention, in relation to China's treatment of Falun Gong, that the sanctions have been applied retroactively? To me, that's a serious breach of natural law (if that's the term), but it might get too wordy if we start including too much of China's specific actions into THIS section of the article. Oh, and Five stars! :) Edelman & Richardson in Journal of Church and State make some good points on the Chinese adoption of western cult definitions into their vocabulary of oppression, but looking at how Olaf already attempted to bring these arguments to light, I think it must be better to put such an exposition in the relevant subpage rather than on the main. Hm. I think I've said this a few times already. PerEdman ( talk) 16:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for this, Maunus, a good start; I can think of some obvious changes etc., and it seems to me there are some prominent academic views on the subject that are left out, but this is quite useful. Seems a good copy for the Reception of Falun Gong article.-- Asdfg 12345 16:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I have gone bold and put this here: /New. :) Hope no one disagrees for easing the work. Colipon+( Talk) 23:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I think that the threads that have Agree, Dissagree, Comments style entries are the most relevant to working toward consensus (personally I even feel that all other threads are redundant), so I think that these threads deserve to be tracked more closely. For this I created the following table. Feel free to update it and to add to it from all Falun Gong related pages and archives.
Section | Summary of topic's discussed | Outcome |
---|---|---|
Talk:Falun Gong#Your views please |
|
Ongoing |
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion/Falun Gong work group#People: Critics of Falun Gong | Should there be something similar to Category:Critics of religions or philosophies? | Needs input |
Talk:Falun Gong#Mentioning the persecution in the lede? | Should persecution be mentioned in the lead? | Consensus, answer is Yes |
Talk:Persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China#Requested move | Should the page title be renamed to Policies of the People's Republic of China concerning Falun Gong? | Consensus, answer is No |
Also perhaps this table might warrant a special place on the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Religion/Falun_Gong_work_group workspace, please suggest the best location for it. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 05:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
In an article like this many of the sources that will be used are inherently non neutral. For example the sources published by Falun Gong itself. Or adversely the sources published by its detractors such as the Chinese state. However non-neutral sources can be used as long as they are used with the greatest care. It is a basic mistake to think that a reliable source is just a reliable source. Some sources are reliable for certain claims while they are unreliable for others.
I have been working with dispute resolution and maintaining neutrality at the articles about Jehovah's Witnesses which presents most of the same challenges that this article has - mostly partisan sources for example. In fact in my opinion there are only two completely neutral sources about Jehovah's Witnesses, both written by sociologists of religion. But even those have certain problems. The first was written nearly fourty years ago - obviously a lot of what can be said about JW has changed since. The other presents certain errors in its description of JW history which can be shown to be simple mistakes made because the writer is a sociologist not a historian. Obviously we did not discard those sources but instead use them for to source claims within their area of expertise, JW in the seventies and JW current sociology. Other, partisan, sources are publshed by the JW-society itself, clearly not neutral. But still they are useful when we want to make claims about JW's beliefs - since they are the one's who can actually express those beliefs precisely. Other Partisan sources are written by ex-JW's and should not be used to make claims that JW is such and such, but rather to show how and by whom they have been criticized and for what. Using partisan sources requires making it clear in the text that this view comes from a partisan source and which side. E.g. "Jehovah's Witnesses believe/claim/sustain" if the source is JW's own. Or "Ex-JW's have criticised/claimed/stated" if the source is ex-JW.
Now, what has this got to do with this article. Well, we have the same source problems, partisan sources form several camps and a few neutral sources (I count Ownby as such) that are not broad enough to be used to source every issue of Falun Gong activity. The solution in my opinion is the same. We can use Falun Gong's own publications to source the falun gong view. We can use the chinese state to source the chinese state view. and we can use Margaret Singer to source the Margaret Singer view. When I state that it is important to clarify to the reader that the Margaret Singer view is controversial this is because I think fewer readers will have sufficient background knowledge to realize that she is also writing from a partisan perspective and not from a neutral academic perspective unless we clarify that. Margaret Singer's view does not represent the views of the wider academical establishment within Psychology or Sociology of Religion (although there was a time when they probably did) and this should be clear to the reader.
I find it a bit odd to have a separate article about Academical views of Falun Gong - to me the main thing that is supposed to be an encyclopedia is the academical view, since to me the academical view is the one that is closest to be neutral, objective and decriptive. This is not always the case though, and Margaet Singer is an example of an academic that crossed from being a neutral observer into being a passionate partisan for a cause. We should never forget that in order to achieve neutrality we have to weigh and analyse sources to find out which statements they can support. And we should help the reader identify the sources so that she can also do such an evaluation for herself. ·Maunus·ƛ· 14:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Maunus, I agree with you 100 %, and hope you will be able to take part in developing these articles in the long term. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Olaf. Maunus, please stay here for the long run! Colipon+( Talk) 17:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Reading the past discussions I have noticed that there has been some debate about whether and how the word "cult" should be introduced in the text. Here I will briefly give the rationale for my perspective on th word. The word basically has two usages: a specialised usage used mostly within the academic discipline of socilogy of religion and a laymans use. the problem is that these two usages are partially opposite and that using the word "cult" with out defining which of the two meanings is used may lead to serious misundertsandings. Within sociology of religion a cult is usually defined as a religious group that defines it self as something new rather than a return to somethng original, it also usually centers its beliefs around the individual rather than the collective and usually it does not have strict boundaries for membership nor do they make many demands of their followers, they are often centered around a charismatic leader, a cult in this sense is opposed to a sect which is authoritarian, maintains strict boundries between itself and the outside world and often defines itself as returning to some original truth. The sociological usage is purely neutral and describes a certain kind of socio-religious organization - falun Gong does fall rather well within the sociological definition of a cult, but we would need a good reliable source to mentio that in the text. In the laymans usage cult corresponds better to the sociological concept sect because it holds elements of authoritarianism such as brainwashing and members living in isolation from society. Another aspect of laymans usage is that it is purely negative and often used simply to label any minority religion that is disliked by the larger community. This means that if we are to use the word cult it must be made painstakingly clear to the reader which of the two definitions are used. And frankly I don't think the fact that someone has used the laymans definition to describe Falun Gong is notable - pretty much any new religion gets to be called a cult at some point by people who dislike it. Christianity was also once called a cult. ·Maunus·ƛ· 15:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I, too, am an uninvolved infrequent editor of Wikipedia articles and would agree that the entire article needs to be rewritten possibly with view froms both sides: pro-cult and pro-spiritual group sides. There also needs to be a mention of the unique promotional strategies that FG employs that I do not see in other organizations. Other than street-side demonstrations where they hand out pamphlets and videotapes emphasizing their prosecution, I have noticed that FG has been active in inserting themselves in parades around the world. They have been in Independence Day parades in various cities around the United States including the one in Washington, DC, and Philadelphia, PA. I have seen articles where they have been barred from parades due to their political nature.( [5])( [6]) There also many cases in which FG organizes cultural performances, but does not advertise their involvement.( [7]) ( [8])FG has also been active establishing College chapters. I also find it confusing when there is no mention of The Epoch Times as being set up by FG practitioners and that a great deal of pro-FG articles floating around the internet are from this paper.
In regards to the contrary opinion, there does not seem to be any mention of the more wacky aspects of FG. There is no mention of homophobia and the negative sentiments towards interracial people promoted by the founder.( [9]) There is no mention of how their founder thinks that earth is being gradually infiltrated by aliens and that he is the only one who sees them. ( [10])There is also no mention of how the practitioners believe that they can fly, become invisible and walk through walls.( [11]) There is also no mention of how, like Christian Scientists, FG practitioners believe that FG cures people of medical illness and natural ailments. ( [12])
There are some articles at http://www.cultnews.com/?p=2346 that voice the pro-cult point of view that may be helpful in the overhaul of the article and http://www.religioustolerance.org/falungong1.htm that also discuss contrary opinon. User:theleike ( User talk:addition) 00:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
theleike+( Talk) 23:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
There is some legitimate debate as to whether or not teachings on homosexuality and interracial marriage deserve mention in the article. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts. My view is that "wacky beliefs" like the 20,000-old nuclear reactor in Africa is not worthy of inclusion. Colipon+( Talk) 23:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
This book is actually available to subscribers at the Gale Virtual Reference Library here, for those who have access I guess. The book itself was published by Macmillan, but it's on the Gale Library. Go figure. Anyway, it contains some information which I don't find in the article yet, and which I assume should have to be mentioned at some point. Items in quotations are in fact quotations from that source. It should be noted that what follows is not intended to be taken as a complete review of the content of that article, although it is reasonable to expect that wherever possible and not otherwise contraindicated by subsequent reliable sources or not otherwise sourceable all the information could reasonably be included. Certainly, other information regarding the oppression of Falun Gong was included, but I am not sure whether previous discussion may have already decided to place that material in other articles, for instance. John Carter ( talk) 21:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Source citation:Ownby, David. "Falun Gong." Encyclopedia of Religion. Ed. Lindsay Jones. Vol. 5. 2nd ed. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2005. 2978-2981. Gale Virtual Reference Library. Gale.
Great, appreciate the efforts.-- Asdfg 12345 18:23, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I have read the quote/foonote, but to me, it does seem somewhat misleading to use the word "theological". Strictly speaking theology implies that followers believe in a God/deity (θεός/"theos"), which is what I think most people would understand. I find nothing of that in the article. How reliable is this quote? (ABC?) Seb az86556 ( talk) 03:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Is this edit here necessary? What do third-party and mediators think? Is it necessary to put an entire paragraph discrediting the American Anti-Cult movement, when 1) it's already in the "Academic reception" article and 2) it is a direct response to the cult-related statements of the ACM and aimed at discrediting it? Colipon+( Talk) 04:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
"But not all courts have accepted the premise that cults impose mind control. For instance, in United States v. Fishman, a California federal court excluded proffered testimony by experts, including that of Dr. Singer, because the Court was not convinced that the application of coercive persuasion theory to religious cults was widely accepted in the medical community (...) The Fishman court recognized the historical underpinnings of the theory of coercive persuasion as having its beginnings in studies of American prisoners of war during the Korean conflict in the 1950s. (...) Nonetheless, the Fishman court did not accept the coercive persuasion theory in the context of cults. In addition, courts are reluctant to embrace the application of coercive persuasion theory to cults for reasons of freedom of religion under the federal and state Constitutions. (...) There are substantial hurdles to overcome in prosecuting cult-rape--such as courts’ emphasis on the use of force, despite the victim’s mental vulnerabilities (...) Nevertheless, law is always evolving and as more cult-rape cases are brought, perhaps changes beneficial to victims will occur." [15]
Those who have taken time to research this topic must be aware by now that Falun Gong is not considered a "cult" in mainstream academia ( Ownby, Schechter, Penny, Kilgour Matas, Amnesty Reports, US Congress Resolutions, Congressional Reports - all address how the label is merely a manufactured tool of repression ).[ "by no means a cult", according to Ownby; "The best way to describe Falun Gong is as a cultivation system. Cultivation systems have been a feature of Chinese life for at least 2500 years " according to Penny, etc.] And I believe I can safely assume experienced editors here would have no trouble accepting the mainstream view on the topic.
User:theleike ( talk) 22:47, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
And this Singer stuff - I believe I can say, without fear of mistake, is fringe.
I am of the opinion a significant portion of the reception/academic views section ought not to be wasted for the sake of presenting and then countering a fringe view. Instead, we ought to give more attention to Falun Gong's reception in mainstream academia. We could look into many sources by experts in the field for this matter. And reception by academia certainly goes far beyond the refutation of an engineered 'cult' label.
My point being: Lets break out of this - 1. present a fringe view 2. use up a paragraph to counter it - style of editing and just directly convey to the reader the mainstream's perspective. Regarding the 'cult' label: its origin ( 3 months into the persecution when legislation was created to outlaw "cults" and retroactively applied to Falun Gong - effectively "legalizing" the persecutory campaign through use of the label ), academic perspectives on the label, etc., could be discussed in detail and with appropriate background and context, in the sub-article.
Also, presenting a fringe view to the reader without proper context is, in my opinion, to be avoided, if possible. We can't just present a fringe view as if it were something that has standing in the academic community. And if such a view has no standing, the question then is why would it be relevant enough to be presented without explanation, context or background.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 16:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
The reason I reverted http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Falun_Gong&oldid=306632489 is that it put more text by Penny in a strange place: Penny is mentioned already at the start of the section, why he reappears further down in the text is confusing, especially when the reason for the edit was "sequencing". PerEdman ( talk) 17:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Reason of the edit was not reordering alone. I thought the summary made it clear. It was also to expand a bit on the perspective conveyed by Penny. The start of the section merely says Penny has commented on the matter. I don't understand why it is a "strange place" to present an academic perspective from Penny - could you kindly clarify? I am restoring the material and will make things clearer in my edit summary.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 17:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Dilip's reshuffle directed my attention to something funny. You have to read 2/3 of the extremely long article before you learn that anyone in the world considers FG to be a cult. This is currently mentioned for the first time when a person denying this characterisation is quoted. I think it should be mentioned in one of the first paragraphs that FG is considered a cult. Anyone got a suggestion for whom we should quote on this matter? Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 17:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Mrund, I beg to differ with you on your blanket characterization of Falun Gong as a "controversial movement." What is this "controversial movement" term meant to covey there in the lead? Isn't it in direct conflict the majority of recent scholarship? Why exactly do you prefer the term with vague connotations to say, The "peaceful and nonviolent form of personal belief and practice with millions of adherents in the People's Republic of China" ( House Concurrent Resolution 188 ) or "The traditional system of self-cultivation" ( Penny, Ownby, etc. ), or The "spiritual way of living" ( World Book Encyclopaedia, 2002)?
Such vague characterization is not only misleading but the connotations carried by it are in conflict with mainstream scholarship. Dilip rajeev ( talk) 20:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
It becomes really symbolic when we begin debating about where to place a few paragraphs, to show the extent of how far this subtle POV-pushing can go. Colipon+( Talk) 20:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Also, saying that Falun Gong is "controversial" is clearly quite reasonable. David Ownby writes: "Falun Gong is undoubtedly controversial" to begin a dissertation that is endlessly cited in these pages. Olaf has read this document, but insists that "controversial movement" be left out. Looks like to me like an all-out attempt to just censor anything that would portray Falun Gong in a bad light, or even a slightly negative characterization is frowned upon by these users. Colipon+( Talk) 21:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
(Unindent)
Based on WP:AGF this must be a mistaken attribution.-- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 08:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
We need to make a decision on whether or not to leave the paragraphs in the article. It seems neither Eric Naval nor PerEdman want to keep it in there (Mrund also said Singer's criticism belongs to the article on Singer, not on the FLG article). Olaf's justification and the defence of asdfg and dilip is unreasonable. The content is seen elsewhere, not to mention its sole purpose here is to discredit the ACM (discredit any sources critical of Falun Gong) so criticism can't stay alone. I propose the paragraph be removed or the content restructured by a third-party user to reflect NPOV. Colipon+( Talk) 23:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I would also like to bring to attention the fact that David Ownby is quoted endlessly on this article but the fact that he says "Falun Gong without a doubt controversial" somehow never makes it onto the article. Ownby also says Li Hongzhi is a "obscure former clerk" and "trumpet player" on the very first page of his essay. [19] Thoughts? I suggest we insert the "without a doubt controversial" line in the Ownby section of "reception". There's an on-going attempt to hide this and only show Ownby's "positive reflections" of Falun Gong. Colipon+( Talk) 23:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
1. Do you agree that Edelman/Richardson belongs in the "academic views" article, not here?
2. Do you agree that Margaret Singer's credentials having been questioned belongs at the Margaret Singer's article, not the Falun Gong article?
3. Do you agree that David Ownby's writing that "Falun Gong is without a doubt controversial" belongs in the article?
STRONGLY STRONGLY OPPOSE. Falun Dafa cannot be presented that way. It is not controversial at all! Falun Gong is not that way at all.--FalunGong Disciple —Preceding unsigned comment added by FalunGongDisciple ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
lattin
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).pennyharrold
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The intro is very long. I think the best way to trim it down to more reasonable length would be to remove a lot of the detail from the longest paragraph, the current fourth one, on post-1999 persecution of FG. Thoughts? Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 15:32, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Do we all agree that the persecution of Falun Gong by the Chinese Communist Party is notable enough that it should be mentioned in the lede? I'm pretty sure we all do, but against the background of current events, perhaps a show of hands would be best, after which we can discuss the size and length of that inclusion.
I was just wondering, but does this qualify as an academic source? --> [1] -- Edward130603 ( talk) 23:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Don't know whether the anti-Falun Gong propaganda website run by the Party is reliable in and of itself? Confucius didn't even dirty his hands with "Two Tales." ... -- Asdfg 12345 15:30, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I wish to pose a question to editors here about this segment:
My view on this matter is that the organ harvesting are rightly, only allegations, and many third-party sources have debunked much of the claims made by Kilgour-Matas. They have been sensationalized by Falun Gong media outlets and their importance vastly exaggerated. In addition, the use of circumstantial evidence on the report makes it inappropriate for us to "conclude" that this is fact, and readily present it as such in the intro.
Therefore, we have a few options. Add the counter-claims to the report, which I am against, or remove it from the lede and place it rightly under its own section, in its own article, or its sister article "persecution of FLG". Of course, as the consensus may be, we can also just keep the revision as is. Lend me your opinions. Colipon+( Talk) 17:37, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Question: What do you think should be done about the "Organ Harvesting" section in the lede? (Please answer with Counter-claim, Remove, shorten, or nothing)
2009 (UTC)
It's a notable topic, and its inclusion is not based on Simonm223's personal feelings about the credentials of the authors or the quality of their report.-- Asdfg 12345 17:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I was asked by Vassayana to review the article and dispute as an uninvolved editor. My approach on this has been to read the article itself without looking at the controversies on the talk page. I should say that my knowledge of Falun Gong is limited to some material from Amnesty, the odd sighting of a protest in various cities around the world and general knowledge. I do have some knowledge of religions and other sects and a general concern about cults and pseudo-science.
My overall conclusions is the article shows al the signs of having grown piecemeal though multiple additions and edit wars and is in need of a radical rewrite. I have noted my comments by section below, but overall I would recommend that a small group of uninvolved editors be asked to do a basic editing job on it, to produce a sandbox version for comment and thus create a fresh start (happy to be involved in that). In my experience (and I speak as a sinner here) when an article gets controversial, a lot of words and phrases become symbolic battle grounds and its difficult or impossible for those editors to really stand back. Of course its preferable for the existing active editors to do that, but I don't see any evidence that it is likely anytime soon
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Lede
Excessively long, some of the material is dubious or inappropriate, for instance:
The paragraphs on membership and the issues of torture and imprisonment should be moved to the body (section on persecution) with a single paragraph summary in the lede. The definition as a spiritual practice in the opening sentence is only supported by a newspaper article. Elsewhere the claims of the movement to be a new form of science would seem to argue for a different phrasing. The lede does not really summarise the history or properly set the context for later disputes with the government
Beliefs & teachings This section needs a radical rewrite. At the moment it reads as a series of statements from different scholars (including uncited claims such as “leading”). A lot of this section sounds like a sales document, rather than a summary of the movement. It could be easily reduced to about half its current length. The essence seems the mixture of ethics, science, mysticism, but it not fully differentiated from Qigong. Its not clear if FG is a sect or off branch on Qigon, or a whole new movement for which Qigong is one of the sources.
Theoretical Background This should be merged into Beliefs and Teaching. A summary of Qigong, in so far as it relates to FG could easily be an introductory paragraphs to the beliefs & teachings sections. There is no need for an elaboration of China’s experiments in science which belong elsewhere. Other sources for FG, such as the other Chinese Texts (the Tao etc) need citation to show that they were used, and any modifications or changes as a result (a generic reference has no real meaning other than as a claim)
Quigong & beyond As above, this needs to be split up between the history section (it originally surfaced in …) and beliefs & teaching where it has some good summary elements. The point that quigong may appear religious to western eyes is valid, but not relevant to a FG article (I could point to other
History, persecution and protest Beginnings needs to be summarised to about half the current length. Some of this material should be in an improved ledge (the origins in official practice and support from the government of China for example) The section on Ideological and social context is far too long. There is a lot of speculation as to the historical context which is hardly supported by references and where supported there are clear questions of weight. Most of the material relates to reasons for acceptance and “growth”, and there seems to be some confusion here between FG per se, and other religious and social movements in China. This could easily become one to two paragraphs. The section on Persecution contains material that should be in the history section, for example the ban itself (which does need a full quotation). The response of Li Hongzhi does not need to be quoted in full, and the speculation as to reasons (although cited) needs radical editing. In effet all of the first part of this section, down to methods of persecution needs to go, in shortened form, into the history section. A new section on persecution, can then take material from the lede (I think persecution is an OK term as it is cited but I am not sure it is a NPOV). There is a lot of repetition and verbiage in this section that looks as if it has grown willy nilly over the years. Organ farming should be a paragraph within the section on persecution. The protests section should also be incorporated into this section.
Reception
This seems to be a summary of academic and related writing about FG. We have the common practice on disputed articles of credentials being challenged etc. Overall this section just requires a new title and some tightening up but is informative and cited. -- Snowded TALK 20:38, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
What was the point of sticking a big box around this stuff??-- Asdfg 12345 17:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Below is my draft for a new section detailing the different ways in which the word cult has been used in relation to Falun Gong. I see it as going in place of the "reception" section since it basically covers the same turf in a more coherent way, and with less propensity for simply stating "these guys think its wonderful" and "these guys think it sucks". I am of curse open to suggestions of combining the reception section with this section in some way if that should be judged to be desirable. And suggestions for improvements are more than welcome.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A returning issue in relation to the Falun Gong is whether the movement should be classified as a cult or not. The opinions about this usage has varied from time to time and from one discursive frame to another. Adam Frank has identified several frames of discourse about Falun gong that each differ in the way they describe the movement and also in their choice to label or not to label the movement as a cult. Frank distinguishes the discursive frames of the western media, the Chinese media, an emerging scholarly tradition, the discourse of Human rights groups and a symptathetic practice based discourse.
The issue goes back to the rhetorics used by the PRC government when imposing the 1999 ban on Falun Gong. In their statements the Chinese government repeatedly classified them as a xiejiao, normally translated into English as an "evil cult"(Chan 2004, Irons 2003). The term has been used by the Chinese government since 1949 about groups classified as harmful to social stability.(Irons 2003) Arguing for the dangerousness of Falun Gong it asserted that Falun Gong mixed Qigong with superstition and doomsday fallacies, which threatened and damaged the physical and psychic health of the chinese people and the social stability of China.( [2]) The statements compared Falun Gong to the Branch Davidian and Aum Shinrikyo, both New Religious movements that had recently received large amounts of negative media attention.
The movement itself of course denies being an "evil cult" and in fact denies being a religion at all, preferring to characterize it self as a "practice system" (source)
When the movement first attracted the attention of western media, largely through the chinese governments statements, it was widely described by the word cult. Often the term was combined with descriptions of Falun Gong practices that have been characterised as "vague exoticism"(Frank 2004:241). Media mogul Rupert Murdoch, echoed the Chinese government when he described Falun gong as a "dangerous" and "apocalyptic cult" that "clearly does not have China's succes at heart".(Frank 2004:243) Similar statements have also been common in the Chinese media's treatment of Falun Gong.(Frank 243-44) Western media however quickly changed this usage to less loaded terms.(Kipnis 2001)
Falun Gong has also attracted the attention of cult-watching groups in China and in the west. Cult-watch groups usually apply a negative definition of the word cult particularly defining it as groups that use "brainwashing" techniques and generally assert strong control of the personal lives of their indvidual members. Controversial psychologist Margaret Singer, who works for cult-watching groups in the US and has worked particularly on "brainwashing" phenomena and "deprogramming" of ex-cult members (Lewis 2004), has characterized Falun Gong as a cult, and mentioned that she has been approached by concerned family members of Falun Gong practicioners. [1] Commenting on the general insistence of Cult Watching groups to classify most New Religious Movements as brainwashing cults, sociologists such as Eileen Barker have argued that labelling people as cultists serve little other purpose than to dehumanize certain groups in society, which may in turn lead to violence.(Barker 145)
In sociology the term cult has been subject to varied attempts at definition. At times it has been proposed that cults distinguish themselves by being culturally novel, that is by being culturally new phenomena, not drawing from the larger cultural historical background of their host society.(Bainbridge 1997) Whether or not Falun Gong qualifies as a cult on that account has been questioned, and it comes down to the importance assigned to Falun Gong's roots in the general Qigong tradition. Some scholars have stressed the movements ties to the Qigong tradition (Ownby 2008:163, Zhao, [2]) whereas others (Irons 2003) have stressed the syncretic combination of different philosophical traditions resultingly construing Falun Gong as a completely new phenomenon in China. At other times a cult has been defined as being characterised by a focus on the individual rather than the collective, or by having fuzzy membership boundaries, or a charismatic leader. In this way the question of whether or not Falun Gong qualifies as a cult depends on the definition used. For example, Chan (2004) uses the definition of cult as a new religious movement that focuses on the individual experience of the encounter with the sacred more than on collective worship, and that is less demanding of their members than sects, and more tolerant of other religions, that has a strong charismatic leadership and fuzzy membership boundaries. Based on these criteria she concludes that from a sociological perspective Falun Gong is neither a cult nor a sect, but a New Religious Movement with Cult-like characteristics.(Chan 2004:682)
For the sake of objectivity, however, many scholars choose to avoid the term cult altogether, arguing that "the term cult is useless, and should be avoided because of the confusion between the historic meaning of the term and current pejorative use"(Richardson 1993, Bainbridge 1997:24) Often academic studies choose to employ less loaded terminology like "spiritual movement" or "new religious movement" when describing Falun Gong, both to avoid the negative connations of the word cult and because the movement does not fit easily into standard definitions of the cult category.(Frank 292) Another reason scholars sometimes avoid the word cult is its possible, unintended political ramifications: By classifying certain religious movements as cults or sects rather than religions, governments may be able to deny them the special privileges and legal protection that are normally offered to religious denominations. [3] Or they may even, as in the case of the Chinese government's relation to Falun Gong, use the classification as a justification for agressively persecuting a religious movement's members. (Edelman & Richardson 2003:321)
This is a very good write-up. Very well sourced and examines the subject from a neutral perspective without resorting to the chronic wiki issue of "she said this but here's why she is wrong". With a few mechanical fixes I think it definitely belongs in the article once the edit protection is lifted. Good work, Maunus. Colipon+( Talk) 02:24, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Excellent work, Maunus. Let's get this into the article ASAP. Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 10:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
It's not bad, but a reference to the Edelman/Richardson article that we've discussed extensively is more than relevant for this kind of treatise. It is mentioned in the sources, but not made use of in the body text. Also, David Ownby's views should be mentioned here, as long as we choose which quote to use. Ownby says in the preface of his book Falun Gong and the Future of China: "The entire issue of the supposed cultic nature of Falun Gong was a red herring from the beginning, cleverly exploited by the Chinese state to blunt the appeal of Falun Gong and the effectiveness of the group's activities outside of China." (p. ix) Apparently he considers this issue so important that he advices his readers about it before they even start reading the rest of the book. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 12:17, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Should the section perhaps mention, in relation to China's treatment of Falun Gong, that the sanctions have been applied retroactively? To me, that's a serious breach of natural law (if that's the term), but it might get too wordy if we start including too much of China's specific actions into THIS section of the article. Oh, and Five stars! :) Edelman & Richardson in Journal of Church and State make some good points on the Chinese adoption of western cult definitions into their vocabulary of oppression, but looking at how Olaf already attempted to bring these arguments to light, I think it must be better to put such an exposition in the relevant subpage rather than on the main. Hm. I think I've said this a few times already. PerEdman ( talk) 16:11, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for this, Maunus, a good start; I can think of some obvious changes etc., and it seems to me there are some prominent academic views on the subject that are left out, but this is quite useful. Seems a good copy for the Reception of Falun Gong article.-- Asdfg 12345 16:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I have gone bold and put this here: /New. :) Hope no one disagrees for easing the work. Colipon+( Talk) 23:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I think that the threads that have Agree, Dissagree, Comments style entries are the most relevant to working toward consensus (personally I even feel that all other threads are redundant), so I think that these threads deserve to be tracked more closely. For this I created the following table. Feel free to update it and to add to it from all Falun Gong related pages and archives.
Section | Summary of topic's discussed | Outcome |
---|---|---|
Talk:Falun Gong#Your views please |
|
Ongoing |
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion/Falun Gong work group#People: Critics of Falun Gong | Should there be something similar to Category:Critics of religions or philosophies? | Needs input |
Talk:Falun Gong#Mentioning the persecution in the lede? | Should persecution be mentioned in the lead? | Consensus, answer is Yes |
Talk:Persecution of Falun Gong in the People's Republic of China#Requested move | Should the page title be renamed to Policies of the People's Republic of China concerning Falun Gong? | Consensus, answer is No |
Also perhaps this table might warrant a special place on the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Religion/Falun_Gong_work_group workspace, please suggest the best location for it. -- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 05:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
In an article like this many of the sources that will be used are inherently non neutral. For example the sources published by Falun Gong itself. Or adversely the sources published by its detractors such as the Chinese state. However non-neutral sources can be used as long as they are used with the greatest care. It is a basic mistake to think that a reliable source is just a reliable source. Some sources are reliable for certain claims while they are unreliable for others.
I have been working with dispute resolution and maintaining neutrality at the articles about Jehovah's Witnesses which presents most of the same challenges that this article has - mostly partisan sources for example. In fact in my opinion there are only two completely neutral sources about Jehovah's Witnesses, both written by sociologists of religion. But even those have certain problems. The first was written nearly fourty years ago - obviously a lot of what can be said about JW has changed since. The other presents certain errors in its description of JW history which can be shown to be simple mistakes made because the writer is a sociologist not a historian. Obviously we did not discard those sources but instead use them for to source claims within their area of expertise, JW in the seventies and JW current sociology. Other, partisan, sources are publshed by the JW-society itself, clearly not neutral. But still they are useful when we want to make claims about JW's beliefs - since they are the one's who can actually express those beliefs precisely. Other Partisan sources are written by ex-JW's and should not be used to make claims that JW is such and such, but rather to show how and by whom they have been criticized and for what. Using partisan sources requires making it clear in the text that this view comes from a partisan source and which side. E.g. "Jehovah's Witnesses believe/claim/sustain" if the source is JW's own. Or "Ex-JW's have criticised/claimed/stated" if the source is ex-JW.
Now, what has this got to do with this article. Well, we have the same source problems, partisan sources form several camps and a few neutral sources (I count Ownby as such) that are not broad enough to be used to source every issue of Falun Gong activity. The solution in my opinion is the same. We can use Falun Gong's own publications to source the falun gong view. We can use the chinese state to source the chinese state view. and we can use Margaret Singer to source the Margaret Singer view. When I state that it is important to clarify to the reader that the Margaret Singer view is controversial this is because I think fewer readers will have sufficient background knowledge to realize that she is also writing from a partisan perspective and not from a neutral academic perspective unless we clarify that. Margaret Singer's view does not represent the views of the wider academical establishment within Psychology or Sociology of Religion (although there was a time when they probably did) and this should be clear to the reader.
I find it a bit odd to have a separate article about Academical views of Falun Gong - to me the main thing that is supposed to be an encyclopedia is the academical view, since to me the academical view is the one that is closest to be neutral, objective and decriptive. This is not always the case though, and Margaet Singer is an example of an academic that crossed from being a neutral observer into being a passionate partisan for a cause. We should never forget that in order to achieve neutrality we have to weigh and analyse sources to find out which statements they can support. And we should help the reader identify the sources so that she can also do such an evaluation for herself. ·Maunus·ƛ· 14:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Maunus, I agree with you 100 %, and hope you will be able to take part in developing these articles in the long term. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 16:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Olaf. Maunus, please stay here for the long run! Colipon+( Talk) 17:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Reading the past discussions I have noticed that there has been some debate about whether and how the word "cult" should be introduced in the text. Here I will briefly give the rationale for my perspective on th word. The word basically has two usages: a specialised usage used mostly within the academic discipline of socilogy of religion and a laymans use. the problem is that these two usages are partially opposite and that using the word "cult" with out defining which of the two meanings is used may lead to serious misundertsandings. Within sociology of religion a cult is usually defined as a religious group that defines it self as something new rather than a return to somethng original, it also usually centers its beliefs around the individual rather than the collective and usually it does not have strict boundaries for membership nor do they make many demands of their followers, they are often centered around a charismatic leader, a cult in this sense is opposed to a sect which is authoritarian, maintains strict boundries between itself and the outside world and often defines itself as returning to some original truth. The sociological usage is purely neutral and describes a certain kind of socio-religious organization - falun Gong does fall rather well within the sociological definition of a cult, but we would need a good reliable source to mentio that in the text. In the laymans usage cult corresponds better to the sociological concept sect because it holds elements of authoritarianism such as brainwashing and members living in isolation from society. Another aspect of laymans usage is that it is purely negative and often used simply to label any minority religion that is disliked by the larger community. This means that if we are to use the word cult it must be made painstakingly clear to the reader which of the two definitions are used. And frankly I don't think the fact that someone has used the laymans definition to describe Falun Gong is notable - pretty much any new religion gets to be called a cult at some point by people who dislike it. Christianity was also once called a cult. ·Maunus·ƛ· 15:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
I, too, am an uninvolved infrequent editor of Wikipedia articles and would agree that the entire article needs to be rewritten possibly with view froms both sides: pro-cult and pro-spiritual group sides. There also needs to be a mention of the unique promotional strategies that FG employs that I do not see in other organizations. Other than street-side demonstrations where they hand out pamphlets and videotapes emphasizing their prosecution, I have noticed that FG has been active in inserting themselves in parades around the world. They have been in Independence Day parades in various cities around the United States including the one in Washington, DC, and Philadelphia, PA. I have seen articles where they have been barred from parades due to their political nature.( [5])( [6]) There also many cases in which FG organizes cultural performances, but does not advertise their involvement.( [7]) ( [8])FG has also been active establishing College chapters. I also find it confusing when there is no mention of The Epoch Times as being set up by FG practitioners and that a great deal of pro-FG articles floating around the internet are from this paper.
In regards to the contrary opinion, there does not seem to be any mention of the more wacky aspects of FG. There is no mention of homophobia and the negative sentiments towards interracial people promoted by the founder.( [9]) There is no mention of how their founder thinks that earth is being gradually infiltrated by aliens and that he is the only one who sees them. ( [10])There is also no mention of how the practitioners believe that they can fly, become invisible and walk through walls.( [11]) There is also no mention of how, like Christian Scientists, FG practitioners believe that FG cures people of medical illness and natural ailments. ( [12])
There are some articles at http://www.cultnews.com/?p=2346 that voice the pro-cult point of view that may be helpful in the overhaul of the article and http://www.religioustolerance.org/falungong1.htm that also discuss contrary opinon. User:theleike ( User talk:addition) 00:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
theleike+( Talk) 23:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
There is some legitimate debate as to whether or not teachings on homosexuality and interracial marriage deserve mention in the article. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts. My view is that "wacky beliefs" like the 20,000-old nuclear reactor in Africa is not worthy of inclusion. Colipon+( Talk) 23:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
This book is actually available to subscribers at the Gale Virtual Reference Library here, for those who have access I guess. The book itself was published by Macmillan, but it's on the Gale Library. Go figure. Anyway, it contains some information which I don't find in the article yet, and which I assume should have to be mentioned at some point. Items in quotations are in fact quotations from that source. It should be noted that what follows is not intended to be taken as a complete review of the content of that article, although it is reasonable to expect that wherever possible and not otherwise contraindicated by subsequent reliable sources or not otherwise sourceable all the information could reasonably be included. Certainly, other information regarding the oppression of Falun Gong was included, but I am not sure whether previous discussion may have already decided to place that material in other articles, for instance. John Carter ( talk) 21:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Source citation:Ownby, David. "Falun Gong." Encyclopedia of Religion. Ed. Lindsay Jones. Vol. 5. 2nd ed. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2005. 2978-2981. Gale Virtual Reference Library. Gale.
Great, appreciate the efforts.-- Asdfg 12345 18:23, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I have read the quote/foonote, but to me, it does seem somewhat misleading to use the word "theological". Strictly speaking theology implies that followers believe in a God/deity (θεός/"theos"), which is what I think most people would understand. I find nothing of that in the article. How reliable is this quote? (ABC?) Seb az86556 ( talk) 03:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Is this edit here necessary? What do third-party and mediators think? Is it necessary to put an entire paragraph discrediting the American Anti-Cult movement, when 1) it's already in the "Academic reception" article and 2) it is a direct response to the cult-related statements of the ACM and aimed at discrediting it? Colipon+( Talk) 04:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
"But not all courts have accepted the premise that cults impose mind control. For instance, in United States v. Fishman, a California federal court excluded proffered testimony by experts, including that of Dr. Singer, because the Court was not convinced that the application of coercive persuasion theory to religious cults was widely accepted in the medical community (...) The Fishman court recognized the historical underpinnings of the theory of coercive persuasion as having its beginnings in studies of American prisoners of war during the Korean conflict in the 1950s. (...) Nonetheless, the Fishman court did not accept the coercive persuasion theory in the context of cults. In addition, courts are reluctant to embrace the application of coercive persuasion theory to cults for reasons of freedom of religion under the federal and state Constitutions. (...) There are substantial hurdles to overcome in prosecuting cult-rape--such as courts’ emphasis on the use of force, despite the victim’s mental vulnerabilities (...) Nevertheless, law is always evolving and as more cult-rape cases are brought, perhaps changes beneficial to victims will occur." [15]
Those who have taken time to research this topic must be aware by now that Falun Gong is not considered a "cult" in mainstream academia ( Ownby, Schechter, Penny, Kilgour Matas, Amnesty Reports, US Congress Resolutions, Congressional Reports - all address how the label is merely a manufactured tool of repression ).[ "by no means a cult", according to Ownby; "The best way to describe Falun Gong is as a cultivation system. Cultivation systems have been a feature of Chinese life for at least 2500 years " according to Penny, etc.] And I believe I can safely assume experienced editors here would have no trouble accepting the mainstream view on the topic.
User:theleike ( talk) 22:47, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
And this Singer stuff - I believe I can say, without fear of mistake, is fringe.
I am of the opinion a significant portion of the reception/academic views section ought not to be wasted for the sake of presenting and then countering a fringe view. Instead, we ought to give more attention to Falun Gong's reception in mainstream academia. We could look into many sources by experts in the field for this matter. And reception by academia certainly goes far beyond the refutation of an engineered 'cult' label.
My point being: Lets break out of this - 1. present a fringe view 2. use up a paragraph to counter it - style of editing and just directly convey to the reader the mainstream's perspective. Regarding the 'cult' label: its origin ( 3 months into the persecution when legislation was created to outlaw "cults" and retroactively applied to Falun Gong - effectively "legalizing" the persecutory campaign through use of the label ), academic perspectives on the label, etc., could be discussed in detail and with appropriate background and context, in the sub-article.
Also, presenting a fringe view to the reader without proper context is, in my opinion, to be avoided, if possible. We can't just present a fringe view as if it were something that has standing in the academic community. And if such a view has no standing, the question then is why would it be relevant enough to be presented without explanation, context or background.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 16:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
The reason I reverted http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Falun_Gong&oldid=306632489 is that it put more text by Penny in a strange place: Penny is mentioned already at the start of the section, why he reappears further down in the text is confusing, especially when the reason for the edit was "sequencing". PerEdman ( talk) 17:16, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Reason of the edit was not reordering alone. I thought the summary made it clear. It was also to expand a bit on the perspective conveyed by Penny. The start of the section merely says Penny has commented on the matter. I don't understand why it is a "strange place" to present an academic perspective from Penny - could you kindly clarify? I am restoring the material and will make things clearer in my edit summary.
Dilip rajeev ( talk) 17:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Dilip's reshuffle directed my attention to something funny. You have to read 2/3 of the extremely long article before you learn that anyone in the world considers FG to be a cult. This is currently mentioned for the first time when a person denying this characterisation is quoted. I think it should be mentioned in one of the first paragraphs that FG is considered a cult. Anyone got a suggestion for whom we should quote on this matter? Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 17:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Mrund, I beg to differ with you on your blanket characterization of Falun Gong as a "controversial movement." What is this "controversial movement" term meant to covey there in the lead? Isn't it in direct conflict the majority of recent scholarship? Why exactly do you prefer the term with vague connotations to say, The "peaceful and nonviolent form of personal belief and practice with millions of adherents in the People's Republic of China" ( House Concurrent Resolution 188 ) or "The traditional system of self-cultivation" ( Penny, Ownby, etc. ), or The "spiritual way of living" ( World Book Encyclopaedia, 2002)?
Such vague characterization is not only misleading but the connotations carried by it are in conflict with mainstream scholarship. Dilip rajeev ( talk) 20:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
It becomes really symbolic when we begin debating about where to place a few paragraphs, to show the extent of how far this subtle POV-pushing can go. Colipon+( Talk) 20:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Also, saying that Falun Gong is "controversial" is clearly quite reasonable. David Ownby writes: "Falun Gong is undoubtedly controversial" to begin a dissertation that is endlessly cited in these pages. Olaf has read this document, but insists that "controversial movement" be left out. Looks like to me like an all-out attempt to just censor anything that would portray Falun Gong in a bad light, or even a slightly negative characterization is frowned upon by these users. Colipon+( Talk) 21:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
(Unindent)
Based on WP:AGF this must be a mistaken attribution.-- HappyInGeneral ( talk) 08:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
We need to make a decision on whether or not to leave the paragraphs in the article. It seems neither Eric Naval nor PerEdman want to keep it in there (Mrund also said Singer's criticism belongs to the article on Singer, not on the FLG article). Olaf's justification and the defence of asdfg and dilip is unreasonable. The content is seen elsewhere, not to mention its sole purpose here is to discredit the ACM (discredit any sources critical of Falun Gong) so criticism can't stay alone. I propose the paragraph be removed or the content restructured by a third-party user to reflect NPOV. Colipon+( Talk) 23:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
I would also like to bring to attention the fact that David Ownby is quoted endlessly on this article but the fact that he says "Falun Gong without a doubt controversial" somehow never makes it onto the article. Ownby also says Li Hongzhi is a "obscure former clerk" and "trumpet player" on the very first page of his essay. [19] Thoughts? I suggest we insert the "without a doubt controversial" line in the Ownby section of "reception". There's an on-going attempt to hide this and only show Ownby's "positive reflections" of Falun Gong. Colipon+( Talk) 23:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
1. Do you agree that Edelman/Richardson belongs in the "academic views" article, not here?
2. Do you agree that Margaret Singer's credentials having been questioned belongs at the Margaret Singer's article, not the Falun Gong article?
3. Do you agree that David Ownby's writing that "Falun Gong is without a doubt controversial" belongs in the article?
STRONGLY STRONGLY OPPOSE. Falun Dafa cannot be presented that way. It is not controversial at all! Falun Gong is not that way at all.--FalunGong Disciple —Preceding unsigned comment added by FalunGongDisciple ( talk • contribs) 15:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
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