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The FDA warned doctors against prescribing hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) and chloroquine for the treatment of the coronavirus except in hospitals and research studies. The FDA said it was aware of “serious heart problems” associated with the use of the drugs and researchers recently cut a chloroquine study short after patients developed irregular heart beats and nearly two dozen died. Scientists cited a “primary outcome” of death and said the findings should “serve to curb the exuberant use” of the drug. Trump, however, has regularly touted the drugs as a potential “game changer,” saying at one point: “What do you have to lose? I really think they should try it.”
See
X1\ ( talk) 09:46, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases recommends against using a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin for the treatment of COVID-19 patients because of potential toxicities. Trump, however, has suggested the combination might be helpful. [1]
The malaria drug widely touted by Trump showed no benefit – and more deaths – in a U.S. veterans study. About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too. [2]
Trump brushed off questions about hydroxychloroquine after weeks of touting the anti-malarial drug as a potential “game changer” against the advice of his own public health officials. On 21.April, a new government study suggested that the drug didn’t offer any benefit in fighting COVID-19 and that its use was correlated with more deaths. When asked about the study conducted by the V.A., Trump responded: “I don’t know of the report. Obviously, there have been some very good reports, and perhaps this one is not a good report. But we’ll be looking at it.”
X1\ ( talk) 10:02, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The director of the federal agency responsible for developing a coronavirus vaccine was removed after pressing for rigorous vetting of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to treat the coronavirus, which Trump has repeatedly embraced. Dr. Rick Bright cited “clashes with political leadership” as a reason for his abrupt dismissal as the director of the HHS's Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, as well as his resistance to “efforts to fund potentially dangerous drugs promoted by those with political connections.” Dr. Bright said that science, not “politics and cronyism” must lead the way, adding that he believed he was removed from his post because he insisted that “the billions of dollars allocated by Congress to address the COVID-19 pandemic” be put toward “safe and scientifically vetted solutions, and not in drugs, vaccines and other technologies that lack scientific merit.” He was assigned a narrower job at the National Institutes of Health.
X1\ ( talk) 09:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
X1\ ( talk) 10:23, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Trump ordered U.S. intelligence agencies to find out whether China and the World Health Organization initially hid what they knew about the coronavirus pandemic as it emerged. The White House sent a specific “tasking” to the National Security Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agency seeking information about the early days of the outbreak, specifically what the WHO knew about two research labs studying coronaviruses in Wuhan, China. The CIA received similar instructions. “Understanding the origins of the virus is important to help the world respond to this pandemic but also to inform rapid-response efforts to future infectious disease outbreaks,” a White House spokesperson said.
X1\ ( talk) 07:03, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
The Trump administration pressured U.S. intelligence agencies to provide evidence supporting White House claims that the coronavirus outbreak originated in state-run laboratory accident in China. Trump – without offering any evidence – said he had reason to believe that the outbreak originated from a lab in China, saying “we should have the answer to that in the not-so-distant future.” The Office of the Director of National Intelligence, however, reported that intelligence agencies concur “with the wide scientific consensus that the COVID-19 virus was not man-made or genetically modified.” The White House, meanwhile, have been exploring retaliatory measures against China, including suing for compensation, which would involve stripping China of “sovereign immunity” or cancelling debt obligations to China. WaPo, NYT, WSJ, AP, Politico, Guardian, Axios, ABC News, CNBC,
X1\ ( talk) 07:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
&/or at 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United States or ...? X1\ ( talk) 09:00, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Trump claimed that China’s handling of the coronavirus is proof that Beijing “will do anything they can” to make him lose his re-election bid in November, adding he believed China wants Joe Biden to win to ease the pressure on U.S.-China trade relations. Trump provided no evidence for why China would deliberately mishandle an outbreak that killed more than 4,600 of its citizens, but said he was considering ways of punishing Beijing. “I can do a lot,” Trump said, without going into detail. He added: “There are many things I can do.” China, meanwhile, rejected Trump’s assertion, saying they had “no interest” in interfering in internal U.S. affairs.
X1\ ( talk) 07:48, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Dr. Fauci, contradicting both Trump and Pompeo, said the best scientific evidence shows that the coronavirus did not originate in a Chinese laboratory. “If you look at the evolution of the virus in bats and what’s out there now,” Fauci said, the scientific evidence “is very, very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated.” Fauci added that he doesn’t subscribe to the theory that someone found the virus in the wild, brought it into a lab, and then allowed it to escape and spread to the rest of the world, saying “Everything about the stepwise evolution over time strongly indicates that [this virus] evolved in nature and then jumped species.” [3]
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: “We don’t know” where the coronavirus began, but “the weight of evidence is that it was natural and not man-made” and “that it was probably not intentional[ly]” released from a Chinese lab. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, however, insisted that “there is significant evidence that this came from the laboratory,” but conceded that “We don’t have certainty […] We’re all trying to figure out the right answer.” Dr. Anthony Fauci, the U.S. intelligence community, and the “ Five Eyes” international intelligence alliance have all said that the coronavirus “was not manmade or genetically modified,” suggesting that it “evolved in nature,” and likely originated in a Chinese wet market as a result of “natural human and animal interaction.” [4] [5] [6]
X1\ ( talk) 06:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
In context:
75% of Americans rated Dr. Fauci’s response to the coronavirus outbreak “excellent,” while 44% said the same of Trump. [7]
For context:
A four-page DHS intelligence report claims that the Chinese government “intentionally concealed the severity” and how contagious the coronavirus was from the world in early January in order to stock up on the medical supplies needed to respond to the virus. The report says Chinese leaders attempted to cover their tracks by “denying there were export restrictions and obfuscating and delaying provision of its trade data.” The report also says China refused to inform the WHO that the virus “was a contagion” and says its conclusions are based on the 95% probability that the changes in China’s imports and exports were outside of the normal range. Separately, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that there’s “enormous evidence” to support the theory that the coronavirus originated in the Wuhan Institute of Virology, not a nearby market. No evidence was offered by Pompeo to back up the assertion. While the Wuhan Institute of Virology was studying bat-borne coronaviruses at the time of the first known outbreak nearby, there has been no evidence showing it possessed the previously unknown strain. Trump, meanwhile, promised a “conclusive” report on the Chinese origins of the coronavirus outbreak. [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
X1\ ( talk) 05:12, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
There has been a ton of searching for "Obamagate" in the last few days. We have no good place for those searches to land. The term is currently a redirect, but there is no good target for it because (to the extent we even know what it is about) it seems to be about something we have no article for. There is a discussion about what to do with it here. Nobody seems to think it is ready for a separate article. I am proposing to add an "Obamagate" section to this article, one paragraph long, and then target the redirect here. My proposed section:
Sources
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Regardless of the outcome of the RfD, is it OK with people here if I add this? -- MelanieN ( talk) 22:41, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
These seem relevant: - [13] - [14] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exjerusalemite ( talk • contribs)
OK, taking into account the comments here and the additional sources people have provided, here's another version of what could be put into the article:
On May 10, 2020 - one day after former president Barack Obama criticized the Trump administration's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic [1] - Trump began tweeting about "Obamagate," accusing the former president of the "biggest political crime in American history, by far!" When asked what the crime was, he refused to reply, telling reporters "You know what the crime is. The crime is very obvious to everybody." [2] Trump's allies later suggested that the "crime" involved the FBI launching an investigation into incoming national security advisor Mike Flynn. That investigation was actually triggered by intelligence reports about Flynn's conversations with the Russian ambassador. The FBI interviewed Flynn four days after Trump took office; Flynn later pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI during that interview. [3] [4] Trump has continued to promote the term Obamagate; he has been vague about what he means by it but has said that "people should be going to jail for this stuff." [5] He suggested that Senator Lindsey Graham, chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, should call Obama to testify about the "crime", but Graham declined. [6]
Sources
- ^ Graham, David A. (May 15, 2020). "How to Understand 'Obamagate'". The Atlantic. Retrieved 18 May 2020.
- ^ Jankowicz, Mia (May 12, 2020). "Trump refused to explain the 'Obamagate' conspiracy he keeps promoting, saying it is 'very obvious to everybody'". Business Insider. Retrieved 16 May 2020.
- ^ "Trump allies push 'Obamagate,' but record fails to back them up". NBC News. May 14, 2020. Retrieved 18 May 2020.
- ^ Farivar, Masoo (May 15, 2020). "What is Obamagate?". Voice of America News. Retrieved 16 May 2020.
- ^ Kaplan, Talia (May 17, 2020). "President Trump discusses bombshell revelations in Flynn case in exclusive interview with Maria Bartiromo". Fox News. Retrieved 18 May 2020.
- ^ Perez, Matt (May 15, 2020). "Trump Administration Struggles To Explain What's Criminal About 'Obamagate'". Forbes. Retrieved 18 May 2020.
Better? -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:48, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
However - I hate to say it but I’m afraid we may eventually need an article. Trump and the far-right have pressured Congress to promote this stuff from a meme to a full blown (conspiracy) theory worthy of congressional investigation, and Flynn’s lawyers are citing it in an effort to get his case dismissed. [15] [16] -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:24, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Discussion can be found here. Casprings ( talk) 16:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Trump contradicted nurses who said that some parts of the country were experiencing shortages of personal protective equipment (PPE), calling the supply of PPE “sporadic” but “manageable.” Trump shot back, “Sporadic for you, but not sporadic for a lot of other people,” adding that the country is “now loaded up” with a “tremendous supply to almost all places." Sophia Thomas is the president of the American Association of Nurse Practitioners, who works at the Daughters of Charity Health System in New Orleans. [1] [2]
In context:
See Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in the United States#HHS IG Christi Grimm outgoing, add? and Shortages related to the COVID-19 pandemic and Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in the United States/Archive 8#Shortages of ventilators and Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in the United States/Archive 7#Feds seizing medical supplies, add? and Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in the United States/Archive 7#push to end social distancing, add counter-argument example(s)? etc ...
X1\ ( talk) 03:18, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
lasting significance. X1\ ( talk) 08:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
References
If this is relevant, I'm not pro-Trump, I'm not American, and I don't know much about American politics either, but I wonder if this page fully complies with W:NPOV. Isn't it taken from biased news and doesn't it sound strongly anti-Trump? The current lead paragraph explicitly says that Trump has made numerous false statements instead of stating that someone thinks he did. The original lead looks much more neutral in my opinion.
The current lead says:
Donald Trump has made many false or misleading statements, including thousands during his presidency.
The original lead said:
Donald Trump, the President of the United States, has made a number of controversial statements which some observers have described as misleading. Others maintain that these statements are accurate, and that these claims are political bias.
I support rewriting the lead to something closer to the original one for the seek of neutrality. The rest of the article also needs rewriting. - Munmula ( talk), second account of Alumnum 03:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
[17] [18] The original lead did not even last 24 hours. It had no consensus, obviously. starship .paint ( talk) 09:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
NPOV tag added due to (1) the redirect of the "Obamagate" page to this page, and (2) this recent blog post by Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger, which appears to concern this page in particular: [19] Narssarssuaq ( talk) 19:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
I've removed the tag. (1) The redirect for the Obamagate page is being discussed here in an RfC, we're not going to keep the tag while the RfC runs. (2) If this is a problem with the first sentence, I'd suggest starting an RfC. (3) Are there any other specific issues about this article you would like to raise, @ Narssarssuaq and Alumnum:? starship .paint ( talk) 09:15, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Do we have such list ?? There are sources:
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link)Yug (talk) 11:06, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
I've started working on a draft. It's a complex article and will take a few days. -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:20, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Here it is: 2020 dismissal of inspectors general. Please feel free to add to and improve it. -- MelanieN ( talk) 04:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
I have been out a couple of weeks, and still attempting to catch-up, patience; so why was the section below removed?
On September 11, 2001 after at least one of the World Trade Center towers were destroyed, Trump gave a telephone interview with WWOR-TV in New York. He said: “ 40 Wall Street actually was the second-tallest building in downtown Manhattan, and it was actually, before the World Trade Center, was the tallest — and then, when they built the World Trade Center, it became known as the second tallest, and now it’s the tallest.” [1] Once the Twin Towers had collapsed, the 71-story Trump Building at 40 Wall Street was the second-tallest building still standing in Lower Manhattan, 25 feet shorter than the building at 70 Pine Street. [2]
At a Columbus, Ohio rally in November 2015, Trump said "I have a view -- a view in my apartment that was specifically aimed at the World Trade Center." He added "and I watched those people jump and I watched the second plane hit ... I saw the second plane hit the building and I said, 'Wow that's unbelievable." At the time, Trump lived in Trump Tower in midtown Manhattan, more than four miles away from where the World Trade Center towers once stood. [3]
X1\ ( talk) 09:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
References
"40 Wall Street actually was the second-tallest building in downtown Manhattan, and it was actually, before the World Trade Center, was the tallest — and then, when they built the World Trade Center, it became known as the second tallest," Trump said in the WWOR interview. "And now it's the tallest."
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In actuality, once the Twin Towers were decimated, the 71-story Trump Building at 40 Wall Street was the second-tallest building still standing in Lower Manhattan, according to the Washington Post. It was 25 feet shorter than the building at 70 Pine Street.
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This should be kept. More examples pre-presidency add temporal balance. starship .paint ( talk) 03:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
In the interest of neutrality, a comment needs to be added under the chart showing the number of COVID-19 cases and related comments by the President. The number of cases called out on the X-axis are directly related to how widespread testing is and are therefore subjective (i.e. the number of cases tested don't necessarily correlate to the actual number infected. Number of deaths with COVID as the primary or secondary cause of death would be a more easily verifiable data point.
Lastly, the Presidents comments are shown but needs to be balanced with what the leading medical experts were saying at the time (e.g. Dr. Fauci).
It's fine to list comments by the President as long as context is provided in the interest of neutrality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:401:4380:230:D00C:BE45:90CE:EBC ( talk) 20:00, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Changed to 7 days as this page is receiving a lot of attention lately. starship .paint ( talk) 09:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
This Wiki on the Veracity of statements by Donald Trump reads like a partisan political hit piece. The sources quoted are the "fact checkers" for the mainstream media. Almost all conservatives and many independents question the neutrality and accuracy of their judgments of veracity. I observe a clear leftist bias in what they consider true or not. In fact, to the extent that I wouldn't be surprised if political leanings were the primary factor in their judgment of veracity. This Wiki page ought to be taken down since it hasn't been verified by neutral observers. 19:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC) Jobardu ( talk)
This entire page is a disaster. The coronavirus section is a truly exceptional mess. How is saying "we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine" with regards to the coronavirus a lie? Does "we have it under control" mean "nobody is going to get the virus"? Who can objectively decide what "under control" is? Does it mean less than 1% of the population will get the virus and 0.03% will die from it? Does it mean the supply chains will not break down? How is "we are very close to a vaccine" a lie? What is "Close"? Some vaccines take years, if this one comes out within a year is it still a lie? How is saying the "curve is flattened" a lie? Wasn't the whole purpose not to overwhelm hospitals and the flattening of the curve referred to that? The "most testing per capita" "lie" uses an NPR article that shows the quote where Trump is clearly talking about testing per capita on a daily basis ("It's over 100,000 tests a day. And these are accurate tests, and they're moving rapidly, which is more than any other country in the world, both in terms of the raw number and also on a per capita basis, the most.") but then fact checks it against the total combined tests per capita, not daily. The "lie" about the mortality rate is the most obscene listing. How is personally saying your belief the mortality rate is lower because people may end up going to work and getting over without ever being tested a lie? This is especially egregious when you consider that this has all but been confirmed. A study found the US mortality rate is 1.3% ( https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-05-08/us-covid-19-death-rate-is-13-37-study-finds). The researcher also makes the same assertion as Trump's "lie" "The 1.3% rate calculation is based on cumulative deaths and detected cases across the United States, but it does not account for undetected cases, where a person is infected but shows few or no symptoms, according to researcher Anirban Basu. If those cases were added into the equation, the overall death rate might drop closer to 1%, Basu said."
I don't understand what the falsehood meant to be asserted in the Michael Flynn/Obamagate section is? What is the falsehood, that Trump thinks Obama did something illegal? Who cares? Is the fact he feels that way a lie?
The biggest problem with this entire article is that it is riddled with statements that are vague or opinion statements being classified as demonstrably false. IJoinedToCommentThis ( talk) 20:07, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Are you kidding me? The speed of your reply shows you clearly did not read a word I said. How about instead of the ad homonym personal attacks you consider what I actually wrote. The neutrality of this article has been disputed. I raised multiple concerns regarding the neutrality of the article based on the following: 1. Questioning how a vague opinion statement such as "we have it under control" can ever be interpreted as a false statement. This can never be proven right or wrong. There is no clear criteria laid out as to what "under control" is. 2. Pointing out how the article fact checking the lie about "the most tests per capita" uses quote regarding DAILY tests per capita and fact checks it by using data of combined tests per capita. 3. The "lie" about his personal belief (again, how can an opinion be a lie?) on the mortality rate percentage being confirmed by a medical study. 4. Highlighting that there is no basis for inclusion of "close to a vaccine" being a lie. Again, there is no criteria for what "close" is or is not. All accounts are showing that the vaccine is entering second and third stages of clinical trials at record rates. 5. Asking for clarification what the falsehood being asserted in the Obamagate section is if the entire section only deals with his opinions. IJoinedToCommentThis ( talk) 20:24, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
The only way the Covid-19 situation would be under control is if the gov't was aiming for it to spread throughout and kill significant portions of the populace
Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice.It does not appear to be contested among reliable sources that COVID-19 is not "under control" in the United States, and thus that claim is false. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 01:05, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
My point regarding the timing was not about the speed it takes to read the text itself, but the fact I included references to outside media (the NPR article, the mortality rate study) which clearly were not referenced, considered and replied to in a two minute window. The reply time indicated to me that the user was clearly not seeking to engage in a substantive discussion about the questions raised. It seems some users are more interested in disparaging anyone who questions the article's neutrality with personal attacks or by dismissing concerns without addressing substance. I would respectfully ask you to proceed in future discussion/debate with a professional attitude.
The issue at hand is not whether or not the level of death and infection in the United States is acceptable or a success/failure of the US government. It is a question as to whether or not a statement using vague terminology can be conclusively called false or misleading without one inevitably applying their own subjective standard to what "under control" is or is not. Even if we found some sort of reliable way to measure what standard can apply to "under control" is the statement considered false even if COVID-19 was "under control" the day the statement was made?
COVID-19 is an evolving matter. Your claim that mortality rates are something that "can not be a matter of belief" is flawed in this instance considering 1. the data regarding mortality was limited and subject to rapidly change at the time of the statement 2. the statement concerned projecting the true mortality rate of the virus when more information becomes available 3. the logic behind believing the true mortality rate was lower is currently being proven by the expanded universe of scientific evidence. If Trump had stated "the data says the mortality rate is 1%" this would be a verifiable lie. Claiming that while the limited data in an evolving situation of a brand new disease may say one thing now, assumptions about asymptomatic infections leading you to believe the true mortality rate is lower (a fact which now appears to have borne out to a larger, more reliable dataset) can not be an outright lie. If someone said "3% of the apples harvested this year are green. But there may be an entire orchard of apples we have not looked at yet and considering that, it will probably be closer to 1% by year's end" is that a verifiable lie or just a possibly flawed prediction which may or may not end up coming to fruition?
No one has addressed the potentially misleading fact check by NPR. Trump statement: "It's over 100,000 tests a day. And these are accurate tests, and they're moving rapidly, which is more than any other country in the world, both in terms of the raw number and also on a per capita basis, the most." Nowhere does this statement reference the total number of US tests or claim total tests are the most per capita. It is clearly in reference to the "100,000 tests a day" statement. Is there a reliable source that indicates that the figure of 100,000 tests a day is a false figure or not the most per capita on a rate of daily testing?
The article claims that on Feb. 25 that Trump comment "We’re very close to a vaccine" is false because "none was known to be near production." CNBC article from that day (Feb. 25, https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/25/us-health-officials-say-human-trials-on-coronavirus-vaccine-to-start-in-6-weeks.html) which references a vaccine heading towards human trials and quotes Fauci saying "“We are on time at least and maybe even a little bit better,” regarding vaccine. Boston Herald article from the same day also goes into further detail on the status of the vaccine: https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/02/25/cambridge-based-modernas-coronavirus-vaccine-shipped-to-nih-for-testing/# With this in mind, the statement "when none was known to be near production" is clearly false. IJoinedToCommentThis ( talk) 05:30, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
submitted a potential coronavirus vaccine for federal testing. Again, that's not production. starship .paint ( talk) 11:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
I realize I am a little late, but I would like to address the argument that Trump's claims about coronavirus are not falsifiable because they are subjective and non-specific:
The coronavirus section is a truly exceptional mess. How is saying "we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine" with regards to the coronavirus a lie? Does "we have it under control" mean "nobody is going to get the virus"? Who can objectively decide what "under control" is? Does it mean less than 1% of the population will get the virus and 0.03% will die from it? Does it mean the supply chains will not break down?
The president himself offered an objectively false claim that characterized exactly what he meant by having the virus "under control." On February 26th, President Trump said at a press conference:
...when you have 15 people [known to have the virus], and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.
I realize Trump's manner of speaking makes this quote sound like a hypothetical, but in context, it is very clear that he was making claims about the current state of affairs. The trajectory of new cases of COVID-19 in the United States would continue to increase after he made that statement. It has been months and we are still nowhere "close to zero" new cases. Bensonius ( talk) 18:10, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Casprings and InedibleHulk: You recently created (or at least edited) an item [21] about Trump's promotion of the claim that Joe Scarborough had something to do with the death of his staffer (note: not an intern), and in particular that her death was the reason he resigned (clearly disproven, since he had announced his resignation several months earlier). I would like to discuss whether we should even have this item. He only started pushing this in the past few days, as part of a war of words with Scarborough - although he had apparently he called attention to it as long ago as 2017. [22] My hesitation about including it is for several reasons: one, it does not have an article, as is the case for most of the items listed here (although we could pipe a link to Joe Scarborough#Resignation; I certainly am not suggesting that it deserves an article). Two, he has only started pushing it in the last few days and might drop it before it becomes a major enough story for inclusion. Three, our posting it here may be a BLP problem, by giving unwarranted publicity to this claim with its severely damaging effect on a living person (her widower). What do people think? -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:31, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Casprings: When you expanded this section you added two orphaned references, presumably because the material was taken from other articles. I found the reference "Pittman1" at the Scarborough article and filled it in. But I have been unable to find the orphaned reference called "politico1". Can you please fix this? Thanks. -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the Joe Scarborough murder conspiracy theory section does not present any more new information, and I don't see any purpose to the paragraph. Does anyone know of the purpose this paragraph serves? TheGEICOgecko ( talk) 00:32, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Trump's push to slow down testing is clearly an effort to cover the truth of the number of cases in America, and I believe it should be added in the article. However, I'm not entirely sure how to make the point that it's untruthful while still keeping the content encyclopedic, or whether or not this even needs to be explicitly expressed. Here is the paragraph I have on this so far. Does anyone have suggestions? Here is the source I used.
On June 20, at a rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Trump suggested that America should slow down testing. In response to the high number of tests, he said that "When you do testing to that extent, you’re going to find more people, you’re going to find more cases, so I said to my people, 'Slow the testing down, please.'" TheGEICOgecko ( talk) 00:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
This guy lied about where his Dad and Grandfather were born in his hit book? For real? Sorry, nothing productive to add. Just wanted to share my favorite lie. 96.231.144.224 ( talk) 23:59, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
During a speech at Mount Rushmore on 4 July Trump told a crowd the US "harnessed electricity, split the atom, and gave the world the telephone and the internet". The quote was then reposted by the official White House Twitter account.
"Americans harnessed electricity, split the atom, and gave the world the telephone and the internet. We settled the Wild West, won two World Wars, landed American Astronauts on the Moon—and one day soon, we will plant our flag on Mars!"
This received widespread criticism: Ernest Rutherford, the New Zealander, is widely credited for splitting the atom, although arguably his students Ernest Walton and John Cockcroft conducted the first physical "splitting" in the early 20th century, and neither were American. The inventor of the telephone, Alexander Graham Bell, was Scottish and invented the telephone while in Canada; he later became an American citizen several years after inventing the telephone. The claim that the USA "settled" the wild west was criticized for passing over details such as the treatment of Native Americans, who had already settled there prior to the USA's founding. Although America technically won the 2 world wars, the claim that "we won the world wars" seems to imply the USA had no help - in fact, it only joined WW1 in 1917, the year before the war ended, and the US also entered WW2 late. -- Orbhouse ( talk) 07:11, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
One thing I think this page could use more of is a statistical comparison of how much Trump lies compared to other presidents. There is a reputation that politicians lie in general, so does he lie more? The section "Fact Checking Trump" touches on this by quoting Fact Checkers and some fact checking sites, but these in my mind aren't entirely sufficient. For instance, my understanding of a lot of the fact checkers/sites mentioned is that some of them only evaluate the truthfulness of some facts (so it's not clear what the results would be if they evaluated all facts), and some don't have a comparison between Trump and other presidents. As an initial act to remedy this situation, at the least I think it would be good to add some text describing the results of this article which evaluated the amount of outright lies made by Trump vs Obama in a timeframe. This does not have the limits discussed above.
Esaucedog ( talk) 04:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
The article is an unreadable mess of accusations. Narssarssuaq ( talk) 08:20, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Do we cover this at all? It is primarily his supporters who are targeted by it, and because they believe his "fake news" attacks on the media, they have followed him into an information bubble limited to Fox News and extreme right-wing sources, thus leaving them ignorant of what the rest of the world and media internationally have to say that is corrective, IOW they remain deceived. Those who are not his supporters get their information from many sources, so they are not fooled by what he says. His supporters are his primary victims.
If anyone knows of good sources which cover this angle, I'd like to see them so we can cover it. -- Valjean ( talk) 15:34, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
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Bill lied to a grand jury and lost his right to practice law. Even the Supreme Court would not show up at his next state of the union address. The infamous blue dress had Bill’s DNA on it, which he denied that he deposited it there. My guess is that you who call Trump a liar, never were bothered by even these quite disturbing lies. The formal lie was a felony, a felony, yes a felony. So until you deal with this honestly with others, YOUR opinion can have no value. 70.114.99.225 ( talk) 10:04, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
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Experts: Disinformation poses greatest threat to the election
I suspect this would be useful on several articles. -- Valjean ( talk) 15:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
"While on Fox News, Trump contradicted the World Health Organization (WHO) estimate that the global mortality rate for SARS-2 coronavirus is 3.4%, calling it "a false number," and said his "hunch" is that the real figure is "way under 1%"." - Why is this left in, when we now know that the infection fatality rate is actually less than 1 percent (and apparently closer to 0.5 percent)? Drsruli ( talk) 19:15, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
(I could point out that "less than one percent" is closer to 1.5 percent than 3.4 percent is. However...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drsruli ( talk • contribs) 02:56, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/americas-frontline-doctors-scotus-press-conference-transcript
Drsruli ( talk) 02:47, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Here is a quote of the full context as reported in the nbc source: ""I think the 3.4 percent is really a false number — and this is just my hunch — but based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people that do this, because a lot of people will have this and it's very mild, they'll get better very rapidly. They don't even see a doctor. They don't even call a doctor. You never hear about those people," Trump said." That's a very clear description of Infection Fatality Rate from a layperson. (He's not a very technical person.) Drsruli ( talk) 02:49, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Plenty of stuff here:
Valjean ( talk) 20:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
References
Are there other cataloge of lies of other liers? That would be very handy!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.119.129.231 ( talk) 09:15, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
@ PackMecEng:, I don't understand where you think you have the high ground on this issue. Was it really necessary to put a D/S Alert on my talk page? Where are your manners? Isn't Wikipedia editing supposed to be a collaborative process? You don't like an edit involving a single sentence, which is a direct quote from the referenced article, that I made and you threaten me with arbitration. You are acting like a bully.
Based only upon your opining, you are taking umbrage with the direct quote, "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation". Are you a Trump apologist? When pressed, you find a "rule" in the Manual of Style that supports your position, sort of. Your rule is "first you do not start an article with a quote from an opinion section, partly because it is not in the body."
Seriously, "first you do not start an article with a quote from an opinion section." You made that up, that piece of guidance is not in the WP:MOSLEAD.
You think the following supports your argument: "if you look Morning Mix describes itself as "The Washington Post's Morning Mix blog covers stories from all over the nation and world." OK, it does that. What exactly is your point? What part of the "Morning Mix" is the problem?
Somehow you doubt the referenced article is from a reliable source. Are you telling me that the Washington Post is not a reliable source? What part of the article about Trump's lying is not reliable?
You object because the article included as part of the "Morning Mix" which for some reason or other the Washington Post calls it a "blog", but it isn't a blog. The article is a Washington Post article that is included in the "blog" section. The article isn't written as a blog, it is reporting, it provides fact after fact after fact. It is not an opinion piece or editorial. Go read it.
Here is the article, check it out:
Your opinion, as I have pointed out before, is not sufficient to merit authority to undo my edit. It is doubtful that the statement, "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation" is an opinion. It is a substantiated fact. The man lies and he lies about his lies. His lies have been tracked and counted. Trump is averaging more than 50 false or misleading claims a day. As of October 22, 2020, he had made 26,548 false or misleading claims. By today, it is pretty close to 30,000 false or misleading claims. 30,000 "falsehoods" seems like a pretty prodigious effort are spreading misinformation. (And I pause here thinking of the 344,0000 unnecessary COV-19 related deaths that were mainly due to Donald Trump lying to America.)
And since you wanted me to read the MoS, how about this "rule": "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable." Clearly, the sentence "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation" satisfies these requirements.
And you continue, "partly because it is not in the body." That is a pretty weak reason. Don't you realize that the entire article is about Donald Trump's serial mendaciousness? Everything that is written in the article is about Trump's propensity for being a liar and spreading misinformation? I think you are missing the obvious here.
It is annoying that to support your tenuous position you go full-bureaucrat and roll out a D/S Alert on my Talk Page and with a condescending attitude, you tell me "Finally please read up on WP:TRUTH & WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS." Gee, you left out WP:TENDENTIOUS.
And about "tendentious editing", it is defined as "a manner of editing that is partisan, biased, or skewed taken as a whole?" What in the single sentence about Trump spreading misinformation, "is a manner of editing that is partisan, biased, or skewed taken as a whole?" It is a simple statement of truth.
About WP:TRUTH, a "rule" is "material added to Wikipedia must have been published previously by a reliable source." I submit, as I have discussed, the article is from a reliable source.
About WP:TRUTH, the "rule" is "the absolute minimum standard for including information in Wikipedia is verifiability." It is pretty clear that the sentence "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation" is pregnant with its verifiability.
About WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Somehow I don't see any support for your argument here. Please explain what relationship the sentence "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation" has to the righting of great wrongs? What "wrong" is this sentence "righting". I think you are just throwing merde against the wall to see if some of it will stick.
About WP:TRUTH, the "rule" is "Editors may not add their own views to articles simply because they believe them to be correct, and may not remove sources' views from articles simply because they disagree with them." I will repeat, "editors. . .may may not remove sources' views from articles simply because they disagree with them." You have removed my edit only because for some obscure reason you disagree. You are unable to support your disagreement and can only cite generally WP:MOSLEAD, WP:TRUTH & WP:RGW. The irony is what you are doing is in general violation of these pieces of Wikipedia guidance.
I would appreciate your response to my parsing of your disagreement. I think you were wrong when you made [ undo of my edit].
Do you really think arbitration for this one sentence is necessary?
Osomite hablemos 08:12, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
those who believe unreliable sources, questioning peoples competencies is not helpful. No need to personalize disputes. PackMecEng ( talk) 18:24, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
@ PackMecEng:, at this point you have nothing new to add to the discussion. When you take the position that your previously discredited posts have a convincing argument as to your personal opinion, you have basically given up. You are only complaining about something you do not like. It is time to just give it up.
But let me add some discussion to my previous disagreement with your opinion.
Osomite hablemos 23:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
The word " falsity" means:
While the word " falsehood" can have one of two meanings:
In particular, "falsehood" can mean "a lie" rather than simply "a false statement" (the former indicates that there is also an intention to deceive). Because the meaning of the word "falsehood" carries the risk of being ambiguous to the typical reader, I propose that (1) any instance of the word "falsehood" that is intended to mean " lie" should be replaced with the word "lie" and (2) all other instances of the word "falsehood" be replaced with either "falsity" or (even better) "false statement". Mgkrupa 21:34, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Updated by adding (uncountable) and (countable), see also this dictionary so "falsehoods" (ending with "s") means "lies" and not just "false statements". Mgkrupa 21:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
"falsehood" trump
versus "falsity" trump
(91,300 versus 9,310 hits in my Google News test a few minutes ago). I can't remember ever hearing the word falsity on broadcasts at all. We must follow reliable sources rather than editorial hair-splitting. —
RCraig09 (
talk)
22:59, 16 January 2021 (UTC)Hi folks, here is an interesting new source which classify Trump's lies according to various criteria (most dangerous, most ridiculous, etc). There is some subjectivity in the judgment, but I wondered if people here thought it would make sens to add it to the article. MonsieurD ( talk) 16:19, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
The FDA warned doctors against prescribing hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) and chloroquine for the treatment of the coronavirus except in hospitals and research studies. The FDA said it was aware of “serious heart problems” associated with the use of the drugs and researchers recently cut a chloroquine study short after patients developed irregular heart beats and nearly two dozen died. Scientists cited a “primary outcome” of death and said the findings should “serve to curb the exuberant use” of the drug. Trump, however, has regularly touted the drugs as a potential “game changer,” saying at one point: “What do you have to lose? I really think they should try it.”
See
X1\ ( talk) 09:46, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases recommends against using a combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin for the treatment of COVID-19 patients because of potential toxicities. Trump, however, has suggested the combination might be helpful. [1]
The malaria drug widely touted by Trump showed no benefit – and more deaths – in a U.S. veterans study. About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too. [2]
Trump brushed off questions about hydroxychloroquine after weeks of touting the anti-malarial drug as a potential “game changer” against the advice of his own public health officials. On 21.April, a new government study suggested that the drug didn’t offer any benefit in fighting COVID-19 and that its use was correlated with more deaths. When asked about the study conducted by the V.A., Trump responded: “I don’t know of the report. Obviously, there have been some very good reports, and perhaps this one is not a good report. But we’ll be looking at it.”
X1\ ( talk) 10:02, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The director of the federal agency responsible for developing a coronavirus vaccine was removed after pressing for rigorous vetting of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to treat the coronavirus, which Trump has repeatedly embraced. Dr. Rick Bright cited “clashes with political leadership” as a reason for his abrupt dismissal as the director of the HHS's Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, as well as his resistance to “efforts to fund potentially dangerous drugs promoted by those with political connections.” Dr. Bright said that science, not “politics and cronyism” must lead the way, adding that he believed he was removed from his post because he insisted that “the billions of dollars allocated by Congress to address the COVID-19 pandemic” be put toward “safe and scientifically vetted solutions, and not in drugs, vaccines and other technologies that lack scientific merit.” He was assigned a narrower job at the National Institutes of Health.
X1\ ( talk) 09:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
X1\ ( talk) 10:23, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Trump ordered U.S. intelligence agencies to find out whether China and the World Health Organization initially hid what they knew about the coronavirus pandemic as it emerged. The White House sent a specific “tasking” to the National Security Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agency seeking information about the early days of the outbreak, specifically what the WHO knew about two research labs studying coronaviruses in Wuhan, China. The CIA received similar instructions. “Understanding the origins of the virus is important to help the world respond to this pandemic but also to inform rapid-response efforts to future infectious disease outbreaks,” a White House spokesperson said.
X1\ ( talk) 07:03, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
The Trump administration pressured U.S. intelligence agencies to provide evidence supporting White House claims that the coronavirus outbreak originated in state-run laboratory accident in China. Trump – without offering any evidence – said he had reason to believe that the outbreak originated from a lab in China, saying “we should have the answer to that in the not-so-distant future.” The Office of the Director of National Intelligence, however, reported that intelligence agencies concur “with the wide scientific consensus that the COVID-19 virus was not man-made or genetically modified.” The White House, meanwhile, have been exploring retaliatory measures against China, including suing for compensation, which would involve stripping China of “sovereign immunity” or cancelling debt obligations to China. WaPo, NYT, WSJ, AP, Politico, Guardian, Axios, ABC News, CNBC,
X1\ ( talk) 07:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
&/or at 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United States or ...? X1\ ( talk) 09:00, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Trump claimed that China’s handling of the coronavirus is proof that Beijing “will do anything they can” to make him lose his re-election bid in November, adding he believed China wants Joe Biden to win to ease the pressure on U.S.-China trade relations. Trump provided no evidence for why China would deliberately mishandle an outbreak that killed more than 4,600 of its citizens, but said he was considering ways of punishing Beijing. “I can do a lot,” Trump said, without going into detail. He added: “There are many things I can do.” China, meanwhile, rejected Trump’s assertion, saying they had “no interest” in interfering in internal U.S. affairs.
X1\ ( talk) 07:48, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Dr. Fauci, contradicting both Trump and Pompeo, said the best scientific evidence shows that the coronavirus did not originate in a Chinese laboratory. “If you look at the evolution of the virus in bats and what’s out there now,” Fauci said, the scientific evidence “is very, very strongly leaning toward this could not have been artificially or deliberately manipulated.” Fauci added that he doesn’t subscribe to the theory that someone found the virus in the wild, brought it into a lab, and then allowed it to escape and spread to the rest of the world, saying “Everything about the stepwise evolution over time strongly indicates that [this virus] evolved in nature and then jumped species.” [3]
The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: “We don’t know” where the coronavirus began, but “the weight of evidence is that it was natural and not man-made” and “that it was probably not intentional[ly]” released from a Chinese lab. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, however, insisted that “there is significant evidence that this came from the laboratory,” but conceded that “We don’t have certainty […] We’re all trying to figure out the right answer.” Dr. Anthony Fauci, the U.S. intelligence community, and the “ Five Eyes” international intelligence alliance have all said that the coronavirus “was not manmade or genetically modified,” suggesting that it “evolved in nature,” and likely originated in a Chinese wet market as a result of “natural human and animal interaction.” [4] [5] [6]
X1\ ( talk) 06:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
In context:
75% of Americans rated Dr. Fauci’s response to the coronavirus outbreak “excellent,” while 44% said the same of Trump. [7]
For context:
A four-page DHS intelligence report claims that the Chinese government “intentionally concealed the severity” and how contagious the coronavirus was from the world in early January in order to stock up on the medical supplies needed to respond to the virus. The report says Chinese leaders attempted to cover their tracks by “denying there were export restrictions and obfuscating and delaying provision of its trade data.” The report also says China refused to inform the WHO that the virus “was a contagion” and says its conclusions are based on the 95% probability that the changes in China’s imports and exports were outside of the normal range. Separately, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that there’s “enormous evidence” to support the theory that the coronavirus originated in the Wuhan Institute of Virology, not a nearby market. No evidence was offered by Pompeo to back up the assertion. While the Wuhan Institute of Virology was studying bat-borne coronaviruses at the time of the first known outbreak nearby, there has been no evidence showing it possessed the previously unknown strain. Trump, meanwhile, promised a “conclusive” report on the Chinese origins of the coronavirus outbreak. [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
X1\ ( talk) 05:12, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
There has been a ton of searching for "Obamagate" in the last few days. We have no good place for those searches to land. The term is currently a redirect, but there is no good target for it because (to the extent we even know what it is about) it seems to be about something we have no article for. There is a discussion about what to do with it here. Nobody seems to think it is ready for a separate article. I am proposing to add an "Obamagate" section to this article, one paragraph long, and then target the redirect here. My proposed section:
Sources
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Regardless of the outcome of the RfD, is it OK with people here if I add this? -- MelanieN ( talk) 22:41, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
These seem relevant: - [13] - [14] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exjerusalemite ( talk • contribs)
OK, taking into account the comments here and the additional sources people have provided, here's another version of what could be put into the article:
On May 10, 2020 - one day after former president Barack Obama criticized the Trump administration's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic [1] - Trump began tweeting about "Obamagate," accusing the former president of the "biggest political crime in American history, by far!" When asked what the crime was, he refused to reply, telling reporters "You know what the crime is. The crime is very obvious to everybody." [2] Trump's allies later suggested that the "crime" involved the FBI launching an investigation into incoming national security advisor Mike Flynn. That investigation was actually triggered by intelligence reports about Flynn's conversations with the Russian ambassador. The FBI interviewed Flynn four days after Trump took office; Flynn later pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI during that interview. [3] [4] Trump has continued to promote the term Obamagate; he has been vague about what he means by it but has said that "people should be going to jail for this stuff." [5] He suggested that Senator Lindsey Graham, chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, should call Obama to testify about the "crime", but Graham declined. [6]
Sources
- ^ Graham, David A. (May 15, 2020). "How to Understand 'Obamagate'". The Atlantic. Retrieved 18 May 2020.
- ^ Jankowicz, Mia (May 12, 2020). "Trump refused to explain the 'Obamagate' conspiracy he keeps promoting, saying it is 'very obvious to everybody'". Business Insider. Retrieved 16 May 2020.
- ^ "Trump allies push 'Obamagate,' but record fails to back them up". NBC News. May 14, 2020. Retrieved 18 May 2020.
- ^ Farivar, Masoo (May 15, 2020). "What is Obamagate?". Voice of America News. Retrieved 16 May 2020.
- ^ Kaplan, Talia (May 17, 2020). "President Trump discusses bombshell revelations in Flynn case in exclusive interview with Maria Bartiromo". Fox News. Retrieved 18 May 2020.
- ^ Perez, Matt (May 15, 2020). "Trump Administration Struggles To Explain What's Criminal About 'Obamagate'". Forbes. Retrieved 18 May 2020.
Better? -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:48, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
However - I hate to say it but I’m afraid we may eventually need an article. Trump and the far-right have pressured Congress to promote this stuff from a meme to a full blown (conspiracy) theory worthy of congressional investigation, and Flynn’s lawyers are citing it in an effort to get his case dismissed. [15] [16] -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:24, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Discussion can be found here. Casprings ( talk) 16:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Trump contradicted nurses who said that some parts of the country were experiencing shortages of personal protective equipment (PPE), calling the supply of PPE “sporadic” but “manageable.” Trump shot back, “Sporadic for you, but not sporadic for a lot of other people,” adding that the country is “now loaded up” with a “tremendous supply to almost all places." Sophia Thomas is the president of the American Association of Nurse Practitioners, who works at the Daughters of Charity Health System in New Orleans. [1] [2]
In context:
See Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in the United States#HHS IG Christi Grimm outgoing, add? and Shortages related to the COVID-19 pandemic and Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in the United States/Archive 8#Shortages of ventilators and Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in the United States/Archive 7#Feds seizing medical supplies, add? and Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in the United States/Archive 7#push to end social distancing, add counter-argument example(s)? etc ...
X1\ ( talk) 03:18, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
lasting significance. X1\ ( talk) 08:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
References
If this is relevant, I'm not pro-Trump, I'm not American, and I don't know much about American politics either, but I wonder if this page fully complies with W:NPOV. Isn't it taken from biased news and doesn't it sound strongly anti-Trump? The current lead paragraph explicitly says that Trump has made numerous false statements instead of stating that someone thinks he did. The original lead looks much more neutral in my opinion.
The current lead says:
Donald Trump has made many false or misleading statements, including thousands during his presidency.
The original lead said:
Donald Trump, the President of the United States, has made a number of controversial statements which some observers have described as misleading. Others maintain that these statements are accurate, and that these claims are political bias.
I support rewriting the lead to something closer to the original one for the seek of neutrality. The rest of the article also needs rewriting. - Munmula ( talk), second account of Alumnum 03:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
[17] [18] The original lead did not even last 24 hours. It had no consensus, obviously. starship .paint ( talk) 09:10, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
NPOV tag added due to (1) the redirect of the "Obamagate" page to this page, and (2) this recent blog post by Wikipedia co-founder Larry Sanger, which appears to concern this page in particular: [19] Narssarssuaq ( talk) 19:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
I've removed the tag. (1) The redirect for the Obamagate page is being discussed here in an RfC, we're not going to keep the tag while the RfC runs. (2) If this is a problem with the first sentence, I'd suggest starting an RfC. (3) Are there any other specific issues about this article you would like to raise, @ Narssarssuaq and Alumnum:? starship .paint ( talk) 09:15, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Do we have such list ?? There are sources:
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)Yug (talk) 11:06, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
I've started working on a draft. It's a complex article and will take a few days. -- MelanieN ( talk) 00:20, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Here it is: 2020 dismissal of inspectors general. Please feel free to add to and improve it. -- MelanieN ( talk) 04:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
I have been out a couple of weeks, and still attempting to catch-up, patience; so why was the section below removed?
On September 11, 2001 after at least one of the World Trade Center towers were destroyed, Trump gave a telephone interview with WWOR-TV in New York. He said: “ 40 Wall Street actually was the second-tallest building in downtown Manhattan, and it was actually, before the World Trade Center, was the tallest — and then, when they built the World Trade Center, it became known as the second tallest, and now it’s the tallest.” [1] Once the Twin Towers had collapsed, the 71-story Trump Building at 40 Wall Street was the second-tallest building still standing in Lower Manhattan, 25 feet shorter than the building at 70 Pine Street. [2]
At a Columbus, Ohio rally in November 2015, Trump said "I have a view -- a view in my apartment that was specifically aimed at the World Trade Center." He added "and I watched those people jump and I watched the second plane hit ... I saw the second plane hit the building and I said, 'Wow that's unbelievable." At the time, Trump lived in Trump Tower in midtown Manhattan, more than four miles away from where the World Trade Center towers once stood. [3]
X1\ ( talk) 09:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
References
"40 Wall Street actually was the second-tallest building in downtown Manhattan, and it was actually, before the World Trade Center, was the tallest — and then, when they built the World Trade Center, it became known as the second tallest," Trump said in the WWOR interview. "And now it's the tallest."
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timestamp mismatch; December 22, 2019 suggested (
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In actuality, once the Twin Towers were decimated, the 71-story Trump Building at 40 Wall Street was the second-tallest building still standing in Lower Manhattan, according to the Washington Post. It was 25 feet shorter than the building at 70 Pine Street.
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is malformed: timestamp (
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This should be kept. More examples pre-presidency add temporal balance. starship .paint ( talk) 03:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
In the interest of neutrality, a comment needs to be added under the chart showing the number of COVID-19 cases and related comments by the President. The number of cases called out on the X-axis are directly related to how widespread testing is and are therefore subjective (i.e. the number of cases tested don't necessarily correlate to the actual number infected. Number of deaths with COVID as the primary or secondary cause of death would be a more easily verifiable data point.
Lastly, the Presidents comments are shown but needs to be balanced with what the leading medical experts were saying at the time (e.g. Dr. Fauci).
It's fine to list comments by the President as long as context is provided in the interest of neutrality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:401:4380:230:D00C:BE45:90CE:EBC ( talk) 20:00, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Changed to 7 days as this page is receiving a lot of attention lately. starship .paint ( talk) 09:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
This Wiki on the Veracity of statements by Donald Trump reads like a partisan political hit piece. The sources quoted are the "fact checkers" for the mainstream media. Almost all conservatives and many independents question the neutrality and accuracy of their judgments of veracity. I observe a clear leftist bias in what they consider true or not. In fact, to the extent that I wouldn't be surprised if political leanings were the primary factor in their judgment of veracity. This Wiki page ought to be taken down since it hasn't been verified by neutral observers. 19:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC) Jobardu ( talk)
This entire page is a disaster. The coronavirus section is a truly exceptional mess. How is saying "we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine" with regards to the coronavirus a lie? Does "we have it under control" mean "nobody is going to get the virus"? Who can objectively decide what "under control" is? Does it mean less than 1% of the population will get the virus and 0.03% will die from it? Does it mean the supply chains will not break down? How is "we are very close to a vaccine" a lie? What is "Close"? Some vaccines take years, if this one comes out within a year is it still a lie? How is saying the "curve is flattened" a lie? Wasn't the whole purpose not to overwhelm hospitals and the flattening of the curve referred to that? The "most testing per capita" "lie" uses an NPR article that shows the quote where Trump is clearly talking about testing per capita on a daily basis ("It's over 100,000 tests a day. And these are accurate tests, and they're moving rapidly, which is more than any other country in the world, both in terms of the raw number and also on a per capita basis, the most.") but then fact checks it against the total combined tests per capita, not daily. The "lie" about the mortality rate is the most obscene listing. How is personally saying your belief the mortality rate is lower because people may end up going to work and getting over without ever being tested a lie? This is especially egregious when you consider that this has all but been confirmed. A study found the US mortality rate is 1.3% ( https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-05-08/us-covid-19-death-rate-is-13-37-study-finds). The researcher also makes the same assertion as Trump's "lie" "The 1.3% rate calculation is based on cumulative deaths and detected cases across the United States, but it does not account for undetected cases, where a person is infected but shows few or no symptoms, according to researcher Anirban Basu. If those cases were added into the equation, the overall death rate might drop closer to 1%, Basu said."
I don't understand what the falsehood meant to be asserted in the Michael Flynn/Obamagate section is? What is the falsehood, that Trump thinks Obama did something illegal? Who cares? Is the fact he feels that way a lie?
The biggest problem with this entire article is that it is riddled with statements that are vague or opinion statements being classified as demonstrably false. IJoinedToCommentThis ( talk) 20:07, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Are you kidding me? The speed of your reply shows you clearly did not read a word I said. How about instead of the ad homonym personal attacks you consider what I actually wrote. The neutrality of this article has been disputed. I raised multiple concerns regarding the neutrality of the article based on the following: 1. Questioning how a vague opinion statement such as "we have it under control" can ever be interpreted as a false statement. This can never be proven right or wrong. There is no clear criteria laid out as to what "under control" is. 2. Pointing out how the article fact checking the lie about "the most tests per capita" uses quote regarding DAILY tests per capita and fact checks it by using data of combined tests per capita. 3. The "lie" about his personal belief (again, how can an opinion be a lie?) on the mortality rate percentage being confirmed by a medical study. 4. Highlighting that there is no basis for inclusion of "close to a vaccine" being a lie. Again, there is no criteria for what "close" is or is not. All accounts are showing that the vaccine is entering second and third stages of clinical trials at record rates. 5. Asking for clarification what the falsehood being asserted in the Obamagate section is if the entire section only deals with his opinions. IJoinedToCommentThis ( talk) 20:24, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
The only way the Covid-19 situation would be under control is if the gov't was aiming for it to spread throughout and kill significant portions of the populace
Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice.It does not appear to be contested among reliable sources that COVID-19 is not "under control" in the United States, and thus that claim is false. NorthBySouthBaranof ( talk) 01:05, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
My point regarding the timing was not about the speed it takes to read the text itself, but the fact I included references to outside media (the NPR article, the mortality rate study) which clearly were not referenced, considered and replied to in a two minute window. The reply time indicated to me that the user was clearly not seeking to engage in a substantive discussion about the questions raised. It seems some users are more interested in disparaging anyone who questions the article's neutrality with personal attacks or by dismissing concerns without addressing substance. I would respectfully ask you to proceed in future discussion/debate with a professional attitude.
The issue at hand is not whether or not the level of death and infection in the United States is acceptable or a success/failure of the US government. It is a question as to whether or not a statement using vague terminology can be conclusively called false or misleading without one inevitably applying their own subjective standard to what "under control" is or is not. Even if we found some sort of reliable way to measure what standard can apply to "under control" is the statement considered false even if COVID-19 was "under control" the day the statement was made?
COVID-19 is an evolving matter. Your claim that mortality rates are something that "can not be a matter of belief" is flawed in this instance considering 1. the data regarding mortality was limited and subject to rapidly change at the time of the statement 2. the statement concerned projecting the true mortality rate of the virus when more information becomes available 3. the logic behind believing the true mortality rate was lower is currently being proven by the expanded universe of scientific evidence. If Trump had stated "the data says the mortality rate is 1%" this would be a verifiable lie. Claiming that while the limited data in an evolving situation of a brand new disease may say one thing now, assumptions about asymptomatic infections leading you to believe the true mortality rate is lower (a fact which now appears to have borne out to a larger, more reliable dataset) can not be an outright lie. If someone said "3% of the apples harvested this year are green. But there may be an entire orchard of apples we have not looked at yet and considering that, it will probably be closer to 1% by year's end" is that a verifiable lie or just a possibly flawed prediction which may or may not end up coming to fruition?
No one has addressed the potentially misleading fact check by NPR. Trump statement: "It's over 100,000 tests a day. And these are accurate tests, and they're moving rapidly, which is more than any other country in the world, both in terms of the raw number and also on a per capita basis, the most." Nowhere does this statement reference the total number of US tests or claim total tests are the most per capita. It is clearly in reference to the "100,000 tests a day" statement. Is there a reliable source that indicates that the figure of 100,000 tests a day is a false figure or not the most per capita on a rate of daily testing?
The article claims that on Feb. 25 that Trump comment "We’re very close to a vaccine" is false because "none was known to be near production." CNBC article from that day (Feb. 25, https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/25/us-health-officials-say-human-trials-on-coronavirus-vaccine-to-start-in-6-weeks.html) which references a vaccine heading towards human trials and quotes Fauci saying "“We are on time at least and maybe even a little bit better,” regarding vaccine. Boston Herald article from the same day also goes into further detail on the status of the vaccine: https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/02/25/cambridge-based-modernas-coronavirus-vaccine-shipped-to-nih-for-testing/# With this in mind, the statement "when none was known to be near production" is clearly false. IJoinedToCommentThis ( talk) 05:30, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
submitted a potential coronavirus vaccine for federal testing. Again, that's not production. starship .paint ( talk) 11:37, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
I realize I am a little late, but I would like to address the argument that Trump's claims about coronavirus are not falsifiable because they are subjective and non-specific:
The coronavirus section is a truly exceptional mess. How is saying "we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine" with regards to the coronavirus a lie? Does "we have it under control" mean "nobody is going to get the virus"? Who can objectively decide what "under control" is? Does it mean less than 1% of the population will get the virus and 0.03% will die from it? Does it mean the supply chains will not break down?
The president himself offered an objectively false claim that characterized exactly what he meant by having the virus "under control." On February 26th, President Trump said at a press conference:
...when you have 15 people [known to have the virus], and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.
I realize Trump's manner of speaking makes this quote sound like a hypothetical, but in context, it is very clear that he was making claims about the current state of affairs. The trajectory of new cases of COVID-19 in the United States would continue to increase after he made that statement. It has been months and we are still nowhere "close to zero" new cases. Bensonius ( talk) 18:10, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Casprings and InedibleHulk: You recently created (or at least edited) an item [21] about Trump's promotion of the claim that Joe Scarborough had something to do with the death of his staffer (note: not an intern), and in particular that her death was the reason he resigned (clearly disproven, since he had announced his resignation several months earlier). I would like to discuss whether we should even have this item. He only started pushing this in the past few days, as part of a war of words with Scarborough - although he had apparently he called attention to it as long ago as 2017. [22] My hesitation about including it is for several reasons: one, it does not have an article, as is the case for most of the items listed here (although we could pipe a link to Joe Scarborough#Resignation; I certainly am not suggesting that it deserves an article). Two, he has only started pushing it in the last few days and might drop it before it becomes a major enough story for inclusion. Three, our posting it here may be a BLP problem, by giving unwarranted publicity to this claim with its severely damaging effect on a living person (her widower). What do people think? -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:31, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Casprings: When you expanded this section you added two orphaned references, presumably because the material was taken from other articles. I found the reference "Pittman1" at the Scarborough article and filled it in. But I have been unable to find the orphaned reference called "politico1". Can you please fix this? Thanks. -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the Joe Scarborough murder conspiracy theory section does not present any more new information, and I don't see any purpose to the paragraph. Does anyone know of the purpose this paragraph serves? TheGEICOgecko ( talk) 00:32, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Trump's push to slow down testing is clearly an effort to cover the truth of the number of cases in America, and I believe it should be added in the article. However, I'm not entirely sure how to make the point that it's untruthful while still keeping the content encyclopedic, or whether or not this even needs to be explicitly expressed. Here is the paragraph I have on this so far. Does anyone have suggestions? Here is the source I used.
On June 20, at a rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Trump suggested that America should slow down testing. In response to the high number of tests, he said that "When you do testing to that extent, you’re going to find more people, you’re going to find more cases, so I said to my people, 'Slow the testing down, please.'" TheGEICOgecko ( talk) 00:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
This guy lied about where his Dad and Grandfather were born in his hit book? For real? Sorry, nothing productive to add. Just wanted to share my favorite lie. 96.231.144.224 ( talk) 23:59, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
During a speech at Mount Rushmore on 4 July Trump told a crowd the US "harnessed electricity, split the atom, and gave the world the telephone and the internet". The quote was then reposted by the official White House Twitter account.
"Americans harnessed electricity, split the atom, and gave the world the telephone and the internet. We settled the Wild West, won two World Wars, landed American Astronauts on the Moon—and one day soon, we will plant our flag on Mars!"
This received widespread criticism: Ernest Rutherford, the New Zealander, is widely credited for splitting the atom, although arguably his students Ernest Walton and John Cockcroft conducted the first physical "splitting" in the early 20th century, and neither were American. The inventor of the telephone, Alexander Graham Bell, was Scottish and invented the telephone while in Canada; he later became an American citizen several years after inventing the telephone. The claim that the USA "settled" the wild west was criticized for passing over details such as the treatment of Native Americans, who had already settled there prior to the USA's founding. Although America technically won the 2 world wars, the claim that "we won the world wars" seems to imply the USA had no help - in fact, it only joined WW1 in 1917, the year before the war ended, and the US also entered WW2 late. -- Orbhouse ( talk) 07:11, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
One thing I think this page could use more of is a statistical comparison of how much Trump lies compared to other presidents. There is a reputation that politicians lie in general, so does he lie more? The section "Fact Checking Trump" touches on this by quoting Fact Checkers and some fact checking sites, but these in my mind aren't entirely sufficient. For instance, my understanding of a lot of the fact checkers/sites mentioned is that some of them only evaluate the truthfulness of some facts (so it's not clear what the results would be if they evaluated all facts), and some don't have a comparison between Trump and other presidents. As an initial act to remedy this situation, at the least I think it would be good to add some text describing the results of this article which evaluated the amount of outright lies made by Trump vs Obama in a timeframe. This does not have the limits discussed above.
Esaucedog ( talk) 04:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
The article is an unreadable mess of accusations. Narssarssuaq ( talk) 08:20, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Do we cover this at all? It is primarily his supporters who are targeted by it, and because they believe his "fake news" attacks on the media, they have followed him into an information bubble limited to Fox News and extreme right-wing sources, thus leaving them ignorant of what the rest of the world and media internationally have to say that is corrective, IOW they remain deceived. Those who are not his supporters get their information from many sources, so they are not fooled by what he says. His supporters are his primary victims.
If anyone knows of good sources which cover this angle, I'd like to see them so we can cover it. -- Valjean ( talk) 15:34, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
Off topic |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Bill lied to a grand jury and lost his right to practice law. Even the Supreme Court would not show up at his next state of the union address. The infamous blue dress had Bill’s DNA on it, which he denied that he deposited it there. My guess is that you who call Trump a liar, never were bothered by even these quite disturbing lies. The formal lie was a felony, a felony, yes a felony. So until you deal with this honestly with others, YOUR opinion can have no value. 70.114.99.225 ( talk) 10:04, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
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Experts: Disinformation poses greatest threat to the election
I suspect this would be useful on several articles. -- Valjean ( talk) 15:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
"While on Fox News, Trump contradicted the World Health Organization (WHO) estimate that the global mortality rate for SARS-2 coronavirus is 3.4%, calling it "a false number," and said his "hunch" is that the real figure is "way under 1%"." - Why is this left in, when we now know that the infection fatality rate is actually less than 1 percent (and apparently closer to 0.5 percent)? Drsruli ( talk) 19:15, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
(I could point out that "less than one percent" is closer to 1.5 percent than 3.4 percent is. However...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drsruli ( talk • contribs) 02:56, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/americas-frontline-doctors-scotus-press-conference-transcript
Drsruli ( talk) 02:47, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Here is a quote of the full context as reported in the nbc source: ""I think the 3.4 percent is really a false number — and this is just my hunch — but based on a lot of conversations with a lot of people that do this, because a lot of people will have this and it's very mild, they'll get better very rapidly. They don't even see a doctor. They don't even call a doctor. You never hear about those people," Trump said." That's a very clear description of Infection Fatality Rate from a layperson. (He's not a very technical person.) Drsruli ( talk) 02:49, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Plenty of stuff here:
Valjean ( talk) 20:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
References
Are there other cataloge of lies of other liers? That would be very handy!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.119.129.231 ( talk) 09:15, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
@ PackMecEng:, I don't understand where you think you have the high ground on this issue. Was it really necessary to put a D/S Alert on my talk page? Where are your manners? Isn't Wikipedia editing supposed to be a collaborative process? You don't like an edit involving a single sentence, which is a direct quote from the referenced article, that I made and you threaten me with arbitration. You are acting like a bully.
Based only upon your opining, you are taking umbrage with the direct quote, "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation". Are you a Trump apologist? When pressed, you find a "rule" in the Manual of Style that supports your position, sort of. Your rule is "first you do not start an article with a quote from an opinion section, partly because it is not in the body."
Seriously, "first you do not start an article with a quote from an opinion section." You made that up, that piece of guidance is not in the WP:MOSLEAD.
You think the following supports your argument: "if you look Morning Mix describes itself as "The Washington Post's Morning Mix blog covers stories from all over the nation and world." OK, it does that. What exactly is your point? What part of the "Morning Mix" is the problem?
Somehow you doubt the referenced article is from a reliable source. Are you telling me that the Washington Post is not a reliable source? What part of the article about Trump's lying is not reliable?
You object because the article included as part of the "Morning Mix" which for some reason or other the Washington Post calls it a "blog", but it isn't a blog. The article is a Washington Post article that is included in the "blog" section. The article isn't written as a blog, it is reporting, it provides fact after fact after fact. It is not an opinion piece or editorial. Go read it.
Here is the article, check it out:
Your opinion, as I have pointed out before, is not sufficient to merit authority to undo my edit. It is doubtful that the statement, "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation" is an opinion. It is a substantiated fact. The man lies and he lies about his lies. His lies have been tracked and counted. Trump is averaging more than 50 false or misleading claims a day. As of October 22, 2020, he had made 26,548 false or misleading claims. By today, it is pretty close to 30,000 false or misleading claims. 30,000 "falsehoods" seems like a pretty prodigious effort are spreading misinformation. (And I pause here thinking of the 344,0000 unnecessary COV-19 related deaths that were mainly due to Donald Trump lying to America.)
And since you wanted me to read the MoS, how about this "rule": "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable." Clearly, the sentence "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation" satisfies these requirements.
And you continue, "partly because it is not in the body." That is a pretty weak reason. Don't you realize that the entire article is about Donald Trump's serial mendaciousness? Everything that is written in the article is about Trump's propensity for being a liar and spreading misinformation? I think you are missing the obvious here.
It is annoying that to support your tenuous position you go full-bureaucrat and roll out a D/S Alert on my Talk Page and with a condescending attitude, you tell me "Finally please read up on WP:TRUTH & WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS." Gee, you left out WP:TENDENTIOUS.
And about "tendentious editing", it is defined as "a manner of editing that is partisan, biased, or skewed taken as a whole?" What in the single sentence about Trump spreading misinformation, "is a manner of editing that is partisan, biased, or skewed taken as a whole?" It is a simple statement of truth.
About WP:TRUTH, a "rule" is "material added to Wikipedia must have been published previously by a reliable source." I submit, as I have discussed, the article is from a reliable source.
About WP:TRUTH, the "rule" is "the absolute minimum standard for including information in Wikipedia is verifiability." It is pretty clear that the sentence "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation" is pregnant with its verifiability.
About WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Somehow I don't see any support for your argument here. Please explain what relationship the sentence "Donald Trump has been a prodigious spreader of misinformation" has to the righting of great wrongs? What "wrong" is this sentence "righting". I think you are just throwing merde against the wall to see if some of it will stick.
About WP:TRUTH, the "rule" is "Editors may not add their own views to articles simply because they believe them to be correct, and may not remove sources' views from articles simply because they disagree with them." I will repeat, "editors. . .may may not remove sources' views from articles simply because they disagree with them." You have removed my edit only because for some obscure reason you disagree. You are unable to support your disagreement and can only cite generally WP:MOSLEAD, WP:TRUTH & WP:RGW. The irony is what you are doing is in general violation of these pieces of Wikipedia guidance.
I would appreciate your response to my parsing of your disagreement. I think you were wrong when you made [ undo of my edit].
Do you really think arbitration for this one sentence is necessary?
Osomite hablemos 08:12, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
those who believe unreliable sources, questioning peoples competencies is not helpful. No need to personalize disputes. PackMecEng ( talk) 18:24, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
@ PackMecEng:, at this point you have nothing new to add to the discussion. When you take the position that your previously discredited posts have a convincing argument as to your personal opinion, you have basically given up. You are only complaining about something you do not like. It is time to just give it up.
But let me add some discussion to my previous disagreement with your opinion.
Osomite hablemos 23:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
The word " falsity" means:
While the word " falsehood" can have one of two meanings:
In particular, "falsehood" can mean "a lie" rather than simply "a false statement" (the former indicates that there is also an intention to deceive). Because the meaning of the word "falsehood" carries the risk of being ambiguous to the typical reader, I propose that (1) any instance of the word "falsehood" that is intended to mean " lie" should be replaced with the word "lie" and (2) all other instances of the word "falsehood" be replaced with either "falsity" or (even better) "false statement". Mgkrupa 21:34, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
Updated by adding (uncountable) and (countable), see also this dictionary so "falsehoods" (ending with "s") means "lies" and not just "false statements". Mgkrupa 21:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
"falsehood" trump
versus "falsity" trump
(91,300 versus 9,310 hits in my Google News test a few minutes ago). I can't remember ever hearing the word falsity on broadcasts at all. We must follow reliable sources rather than editorial hair-splitting. —
RCraig09 (
talk)
22:59, 16 January 2021 (UTC)Hi folks, here is an interesting new source which classify Trump's lies according to various criteria (most dangerous, most ridiculous, etc). There is some subjectivity in the judgment, but I wondered if people here thought it would make sens to add it to the article. MonsieurD ( talk) 16:19, 16 January 2021 (UTC)