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The Fuck page mentions the "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" explanations as being 'folk etyomlogies'. But these sorts of explanations don't fit the description on the [[[Folk etymology]] page. It appears that the definition here needs to be broader.
I'm trying to make this terminology consistent wikipedia-wide, so I want to put a bit more emphasis here: A folk etymology is a correct explanation of a word or phrase's history; if it's popular but incorrect, it's fake or popular (which is a redirect to fake here).
Writing something like "an incorrect
folk etymology" should be a red flag that something is wrong. A folk etymology which is incorrect needs to not only be incorrect but also reference an incorrect etymology. But at that point it's probably better to emphasize that the etymology being talked about is wrong, and not get into details about what linguistic labels would apply to the wrong etymology were it correct.
—
mendel
☎ 02:35, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
I didn't do a great job of making the folk/fake distinction first time around, and a couple of people have pointed that out on my talk page, and I've replied on theirs, and so on, the end result being quite a bit of discussion on the distinction that is on various people's talk pages. To remedy that, I'm pulling out bits from a few of my replies here, so that discussion on the distinction can happen here instead of all over!
Having dug into this further, here's the key distinction, regardless of what I said above:
A fake etymology is an inaccurate account of the history of a word or phrase.
Folk etymology is the process in which a word or phrase's meaning changes because a fake etymology is widely believed to be correct.
Just so you don't think I'm making this all up, here's MWCD13's entry for "folk etymology":
OED2 doesn't give it a separate entry, but in this usage note in folk the gist is still there:
Columbia is a bit more liberal, but still clear:
I personally don't like the "and their results" part (that takes us back to "a folk etymology" again, which is just asking for further confusion), but it's clear there that there has to be a change for folk etymology to occur.
A couple more online references:
I think the reason it gets confusing is that the two terms resemble each other so closely — but they're really using "etymology" in two different senses. In "fake etymology", "etymology" means "an account of the history of a word or phrase"; in "folk etymology", "etymology" means "the way a word or phrase developed over time". To compare that to non-linguistic history, the former is like a book about how a war was won, while the latter was the actual winning of the war.
In other words, to say "cater-corner" refers to the way cats walk is a fake etymology, because, well, it's not true. But to say "kitty-corner" developed from "cater-corner" because many believed "cater-corner" to refer to the way cats walk is a description of an instance where the process called "folk etymology" occurred.
Folk etymology is something that happens to a word or phrase, and the end result is a modification; a fake etymology is a particular description of what happened to a word or phrase, where that description is incorrect but popularly held.
So, to determine whether folk etymology is involved, the first question to ask is "Did the word change?". If there was no change then there was no process by which the change occurred, so it's not folk etymology at work.
On the other hand, if there was change, then the question to ask is "Was the change based on an inaccurate understanding of the history of the word prior to the change?" If it was, then what happened was folk etymology.
As for popular etymology, I'm really not sure. I see references that use it in the "popularly-held belief" sense, and references that use it in the "folk-etymology process" sense. Perhaps it ought to just be avoided outright? — mendel ☎ 15:39, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
Despite the above, a request was entered to merge Fake into Folk etymology. I have removed the request-- the above reasoning is self-explanatory. Mwanner 21:24, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
it will be even more confusing if the pages are merged. The concepts overlap, but neither is a subset of the other. If a fake etymology evolves into a folk etymology, it will cease to be a fake etymology. So, yes, the articles should be clarified, but no, I do not think merging them will be helpful at this point. dab (ᛏ) 08:42, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As there has been no response to my comments of 8 May, can I take it you are all happy for me to move this article to Pseudo-Etymology, incorporate the material from "Fake etymology" and make both "Fake etymology" and "Folk etymology" into redirects? If not, you'd better say so. Silence is my mandate to go ahead. -- Doric Loon 19:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, we seem to have some degree of consensus here, so I shall make a start. The "to-do list" is 1. Start a new article on False etymology - I'll do that in the next hour; feed-back on the new article's talk page would be great. 2. Adapt THIS article ( Folk etymology) along the lines we have discussed; shouldn't be too problematic. 3. Put up a vfd on Fake etymology and move its useful material to the appropriate places in the other two. This last move might be more problematic, since there are people reading there who have not followed the discussion here (despite my encouragement to do so) and may object. So there may be an interim phase where we have a messy compromise. But we'll do our best. -- Doric Loon 12:27, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Hi Mendel, I was wondering why you hadn't taken part in this discussion, which has been going on for several months now. Looks like you were "away from your desk" or something. Pity, though, if you're going to take issue with me AFTER I made those changes when I did my best to thrash everything out with all interested parties before hand. But good to have your input nonetheless.
I'm all for keeping the term technical, but I don't think that means what you think it means. Stop and think about the word "etymology". Whatever a "xxx etymology" is, it must be a kind of etymology. And an etymology is a theory about the source of a word. An etymology is not a linguistic process. It is an explanation. So from a purely logical point of view, I don't think your opinion makes sense.
However, much more important than that is to look at how linguists are actually using the word. (And it IS contemporary linguists I'm reading, not "everyone and his dog".) Fact is, the phrase is used in two situations. 1. to describe an etymological myth per se (Posh stands for Port Out Starbord Home). And 2. to describe the same thing when it results in a change in the word (Middle English speakers think berfrei has something to do with bells, so they alter it to belfry). The latter is much more interesting for linguists, so you'll hear it more often, but it's just wrong to say that the former is only used by the uneducated.
You want a source for this? Well, You just gave US one. The web links you just offered include the sentence: "Though one could define the linguistic term folk etymology broadly as 'any popular misconception about the origins of a word or phrase, esp. one resulting in modification', it would be best to divide it up into two separate senses." More or less my point, though on balance my instinct is to keep the senses linked.
Given that this is so, there are two possibilities. Either the phrase has two different meanings, which is confusing, or as I would see it, the two meanings are essentially the same. When we say that "berfrei changed to belfry by folk etymology" (the usual wording, also in your web links), I think most of us are understanding "folk etymology" as the trigger, not as the process. That way "folk etymology" means the same in both cases, and the process may follow from it or not. Now, you are welcome to take the other view and say that for you it means the process itself, but then you are going to have to deal both with an irritating confusion of meanings and I don't actually think you're helping anyone that way.
At any rate, the fact that you say your own experience has been that "everyone misunderstands" this and that you want to establish Wikipedia as the one place where your view is clearly presented does suggest that maybe you need to think again. -- Doric Loon 18:01, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Mendel, I was born wordy and got wordier. Didn't mean to startle you with my tome! I tend to think things out as I write them, which means that sometimes my humble point of view looks like more of a broadside than it was meant to. It does strike me, though, that on this issue of trigger versus process there may be more variation of useage than I was aware of. I'll pursue it a bit further and possibly add a note to that effect, though it won't be tonight.
What did you think of the new page false etymology? It's meant to be an anchor for these other ones. I would like to write a new piece on mediaeval etymology and possibly humanist etymology, though the latter will have to wait until my own research on the topic has been published, probably at the end of this year, otherwise I'll be done for putting original research on Wiki!
I've changed my mind, btw, about proposing fake etymology for deletion (mentioned above); that article could be very useful if we can focus it more on the political propaganda side of things. -- Doric Loon 19:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
"Chaise-lounge" isn't folk etymology, it's a typo pure and simple, at least according to the dictionaries I've consulted.
I'll add my name to the list of degreed linguists who have heard of "folk etymology", but never heard of "fake etymology". In some ways, this is not a surprise, as so-called "fake etymology" is not really a linguistic phenomenon; at best it is meta-linguistic. Just as astronomers have little to say about astrology, I doubt there is much to be found about "fake etymology" in linguistics sources, save for noting particular incorrect etymologies.
To my best understanding, and from reading the sources cited above, what we have here are two senses of the term "folk etymology": the technical sense that linguists use (corresponding to folk etymology) and its extension to a broader, common, non-technical usage (referring to so-called fake etymology).
To my mind, this situation is rather similar to the technical botanical meaning of fruit vs. its common (culinary) definition. And in the case of "fruit", I think it is handled appropriately -- the different senses of the term are explained in fruit. A new term is not invented for the less technically correct usage.
In line with WP:NOR, I would request that at least one reputable (and not wikipedia-derived) source be given for the usage of "fake etymology", as Wikipedia is not in the business of promulgating new ideas or inventing terms.
I think the fact that this issue has been raised again and again by well-informed editors might be a signal that something is not quite right with fake etymology as a separate article with a neologistic name. -- Tabor 18:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
It wasn't my intention to propose that linguistics should change its terminology, but rather to establish what actually is the normal use. I stand by the assersion that MY usage and what I THINK I hear most of my colleagues saying is that a folk etymology (= a popular misconception of origins) sometimes causes a word changes its spelling/form/meaning or whatever as a kind of levelling to make the word conform to its supposed origins: the term folk etymology thus refers to the catalist, not the reaction it induces. That is not only the more logical use (which you rightly say is neither here nor there), but it is also what I hear linguists most commonly saying. The above quotes tend to support me on that - the OED certaily uses the phrase as I imagine it. However, if you read the above, you will see that as the discussion progressed (about June 05) I did come to realise that the other way of using the term also has its serious adherents, even if it is not best practice, and I am content to have this page note that there are two ways of using it. -- Doric Loon 09:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I would call the process "analogy". But of course what we most commonly hear is a phrase like "this word changed its meaning by folk etymology", in which the syntax does not make it clear whether "folk etymology" refers to process or trigger. I suspect that the term originally referred to the trigger and has come also to refer to the process because of the ambiguity of that construction. But as you say, since linguists are only interested in false etymologies when they produce results in the language itself, it comes to the same thing in the end, in most cases.
I don't think I would use the term folk etymology for classical or medieval attempts at linguistics. We have an article on medieval etymology, and I think that is something far more structured than the vague popular connections which lie behind what we are discussing here. Medieval etymology may not be of much interest to linguists, but it is crucial for many aspects of medieval literature, cultural history, theology... And if Isidor calls it etymology, I doubt if we can deny him the word. -- Doric Loon 23:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I saw that the article has changed dramatically this whole time and has swung between different definitions. So I myself tried searching for sources on the internet and basically I see the word used in the two distinct ways, as describing incorrect urban legend like etymologies, and describing words which changed because people didn't understand their etymologies (a much more rare but distinct usage). I think then the article should clearly state that the word is used in two distinct ways, and talk about both, instead of trying to synthesize the two meanings because its confusing that a word can mean two distinct things.
I cannot find any references that make the claim that "sweetheart" is derived from "sweetard", nor can I find any references to "sweetard" being an actual word. All the references that I have found state that "sweetheart" is simply a combination of "sweet" and "heart". In fact, dictionary.com states that is is from ME swete herte.
I have a theory that "eggplant" is derived from a misunderstanding of the Arabic badinjan (aubergine) as meaning bayd-el-jann (egg of the garden), though the word is actually derived from Sanskrit vatinganan (wind-producing). However, I have seen no support for this: has anyone any evidence for or against? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Just thought I'd say:) Hakluyt bean 02:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed this entry because petty is in fact derived from petit; if this counts as a folk etymology it is a very marginal case. — Tamfang 20:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
There really has been no succesful distinction between folk etymology and false etymology -- at most, it's a kind of venn-diagram thing, and going through Pyles and Algeo, Baugh & Cable, Millward, Partridge, McLaughlin and my own experience (I teach linguistics, but I know that's original research, so I don't put any weight on it) there is NO recognized, systematic distinction between these terms. Therefore, I propose (once again) merging the two topics (I'll cross post at the other). DavidOaks ( talk) 14:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR ( talk) 03:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Folk etymology → False etymology — no distinction in terms, overlap of subject, sources, examples — DavidOaks ( talk) 21:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions."This error has been perpetuated in the grizzly bear's scientific trinomial name: Ursus arctos horribilis" is a false statement made by an individual who clearly has no background in Latin.
In Latin, "horribilis" itself meanse "grizzled," therefore the trinomial nomenclature does in fact reference the bear's original name. I don't know the veracity of the rest of the reference, but I am positive that this one part is clearly wrong.
71.141.238.3 ( talk) 06:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the same article as False etymology, except for that article's enormous introduction; they even contained the same folk etymology about 'lantern' being derived from 'lanthorn', although I have changed that in Folk etymology. Anyway I suggest either the demolition of one of these articles or a furious differentiation; my preference being the first, since I'm more familiar with the term 'folk etymology'.
ClockwerkMao ( talk) 19:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Although the discussion here was unanimously against the move, someone went and moved Folk etymology to False etymology. You can comment about returning to the status quo ante on the talk page for the article currently called False etymology. μηδείς ( talk) 01:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I have re-expanded this to article status per the unopposed suggestion of Bkonrad in the requested move which made this title a redirect: [6].
The material suffers a lack of reliable sources, and consists of editorial synthesis, and if not rapidly improved, should likely be deleted. μηδείς ( talk) 03:38, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Recreating a content fork because you think it should be deleted is a terrible idea. Either create an article by establishing that it should exist, or else just don't create it. -- dab (𒁳) 08:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Given that it has been suggested at the talk for Volksetymologie that this article be moved to popular etymology, let me express my opposition. Popular etymologies that happen to be true are simply called etymologies, and there already exists an article for that subject. μηδείς ( talk) 16:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
According to WP:RS we need sources to back up challenged claims. The claim that someone has attributed a false etymology to 'snob' is such a claim, whether or not the etymology itself is false. Please don't remove tags asking for references. μηδείς ( talk) 02:07, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't believe that it is the place of Wikipedia to expand confusion, much less to sow it with assumed authority.
In the end, perhaps all related articles would indeed be better folded into subsections of an overarching article such as pseudo-etymology. Until then, there are certainly steps that can be taken to fight the nonsense.
Confusion is supported from the very beginning(s)—
How can a typical WP user NOT be misled by this??
My recommendation: for the sake of initial clarity, push all of this "a.k.a." garbage back as far as possible!! I believe it ought to be well into the main body of the article, but certainly no further forward than the final paragraph of the lede.
And also put MUCH clearer effort into distinguishing "also sometimes called" from "often erroneously referred to as" terminology. Do this early, and at least allude to it three or four times in the article.
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
15:25, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
For details, see: Gold, David L. 2020. Ghost Meanings Created by Dictionaries: The Case of Dickens’s Use of the Word theatricals. Dickens Quarterly. Vol. 37. No. 3. September. Pp. 226-236.
In all likelihood you can get a free copy at davidlgold.com S. Valkemirer ( talk) 14:42, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
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The Fuck page mentions the "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" explanations as being 'folk etyomlogies'. But these sorts of explanations don't fit the description on the [[[Folk etymology]] page. It appears that the definition here needs to be broader.
I'm trying to make this terminology consistent wikipedia-wide, so I want to put a bit more emphasis here: A folk etymology is a correct explanation of a word or phrase's history; if it's popular but incorrect, it's fake or popular (which is a redirect to fake here).
Writing something like "an incorrect
folk etymology" should be a red flag that something is wrong. A folk etymology which is incorrect needs to not only be incorrect but also reference an incorrect etymology. But at that point it's probably better to emphasize that the etymology being talked about is wrong, and not get into details about what linguistic labels would apply to the wrong etymology were it correct.
—
mendel
☎ 02:35, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
I didn't do a great job of making the folk/fake distinction first time around, and a couple of people have pointed that out on my talk page, and I've replied on theirs, and so on, the end result being quite a bit of discussion on the distinction that is on various people's talk pages. To remedy that, I'm pulling out bits from a few of my replies here, so that discussion on the distinction can happen here instead of all over!
Having dug into this further, here's the key distinction, regardless of what I said above:
A fake etymology is an inaccurate account of the history of a word or phrase.
Folk etymology is the process in which a word or phrase's meaning changes because a fake etymology is widely believed to be correct.
Just so you don't think I'm making this all up, here's MWCD13's entry for "folk etymology":
OED2 doesn't give it a separate entry, but in this usage note in folk the gist is still there:
Columbia is a bit more liberal, but still clear:
I personally don't like the "and their results" part (that takes us back to "a folk etymology" again, which is just asking for further confusion), but it's clear there that there has to be a change for folk etymology to occur.
A couple more online references:
I think the reason it gets confusing is that the two terms resemble each other so closely — but they're really using "etymology" in two different senses. In "fake etymology", "etymology" means "an account of the history of a word or phrase"; in "folk etymology", "etymology" means "the way a word or phrase developed over time". To compare that to non-linguistic history, the former is like a book about how a war was won, while the latter was the actual winning of the war.
In other words, to say "cater-corner" refers to the way cats walk is a fake etymology, because, well, it's not true. But to say "kitty-corner" developed from "cater-corner" because many believed "cater-corner" to refer to the way cats walk is a description of an instance where the process called "folk etymology" occurred.
Folk etymology is something that happens to a word or phrase, and the end result is a modification; a fake etymology is a particular description of what happened to a word or phrase, where that description is incorrect but popularly held.
So, to determine whether folk etymology is involved, the first question to ask is "Did the word change?". If there was no change then there was no process by which the change occurred, so it's not folk etymology at work.
On the other hand, if there was change, then the question to ask is "Was the change based on an inaccurate understanding of the history of the word prior to the change?" If it was, then what happened was folk etymology.
As for popular etymology, I'm really not sure. I see references that use it in the "popularly-held belief" sense, and references that use it in the "folk-etymology process" sense. Perhaps it ought to just be avoided outright? — mendel ☎ 15:39, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
Despite the above, a request was entered to merge Fake into Folk etymology. I have removed the request-- the above reasoning is self-explanatory. Mwanner 21:24, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
it will be even more confusing if the pages are merged. The concepts overlap, but neither is a subset of the other. If a fake etymology evolves into a folk etymology, it will cease to be a fake etymology. So, yes, the articles should be clarified, but no, I do not think merging them will be helpful at this point. dab (ᛏ) 08:42, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As there has been no response to my comments of 8 May, can I take it you are all happy for me to move this article to Pseudo-Etymology, incorporate the material from "Fake etymology" and make both "Fake etymology" and "Folk etymology" into redirects? If not, you'd better say so. Silence is my mandate to go ahead. -- Doric Loon 19:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, we seem to have some degree of consensus here, so I shall make a start. The "to-do list" is 1. Start a new article on False etymology - I'll do that in the next hour; feed-back on the new article's talk page would be great. 2. Adapt THIS article ( Folk etymology) along the lines we have discussed; shouldn't be too problematic. 3. Put up a vfd on Fake etymology and move its useful material to the appropriate places in the other two. This last move might be more problematic, since there are people reading there who have not followed the discussion here (despite my encouragement to do so) and may object. So there may be an interim phase where we have a messy compromise. But we'll do our best. -- Doric Loon 12:27, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Hi Mendel, I was wondering why you hadn't taken part in this discussion, which has been going on for several months now. Looks like you were "away from your desk" or something. Pity, though, if you're going to take issue with me AFTER I made those changes when I did my best to thrash everything out with all interested parties before hand. But good to have your input nonetheless.
I'm all for keeping the term technical, but I don't think that means what you think it means. Stop and think about the word "etymology". Whatever a "xxx etymology" is, it must be a kind of etymology. And an etymology is a theory about the source of a word. An etymology is not a linguistic process. It is an explanation. So from a purely logical point of view, I don't think your opinion makes sense.
However, much more important than that is to look at how linguists are actually using the word. (And it IS contemporary linguists I'm reading, not "everyone and his dog".) Fact is, the phrase is used in two situations. 1. to describe an etymological myth per se (Posh stands for Port Out Starbord Home). And 2. to describe the same thing when it results in a change in the word (Middle English speakers think berfrei has something to do with bells, so they alter it to belfry). The latter is much more interesting for linguists, so you'll hear it more often, but it's just wrong to say that the former is only used by the uneducated.
You want a source for this? Well, You just gave US one. The web links you just offered include the sentence: "Though one could define the linguistic term folk etymology broadly as 'any popular misconception about the origins of a word or phrase, esp. one resulting in modification', it would be best to divide it up into two separate senses." More or less my point, though on balance my instinct is to keep the senses linked.
Given that this is so, there are two possibilities. Either the phrase has two different meanings, which is confusing, or as I would see it, the two meanings are essentially the same. When we say that "berfrei changed to belfry by folk etymology" (the usual wording, also in your web links), I think most of us are understanding "folk etymology" as the trigger, not as the process. That way "folk etymology" means the same in both cases, and the process may follow from it or not. Now, you are welcome to take the other view and say that for you it means the process itself, but then you are going to have to deal both with an irritating confusion of meanings and I don't actually think you're helping anyone that way.
At any rate, the fact that you say your own experience has been that "everyone misunderstands" this and that you want to establish Wikipedia as the one place where your view is clearly presented does suggest that maybe you need to think again. -- Doric Loon 18:01, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Mendel, I was born wordy and got wordier. Didn't mean to startle you with my tome! I tend to think things out as I write them, which means that sometimes my humble point of view looks like more of a broadside than it was meant to. It does strike me, though, that on this issue of trigger versus process there may be more variation of useage than I was aware of. I'll pursue it a bit further and possibly add a note to that effect, though it won't be tonight.
What did you think of the new page false etymology? It's meant to be an anchor for these other ones. I would like to write a new piece on mediaeval etymology and possibly humanist etymology, though the latter will have to wait until my own research on the topic has been published, probably at the end of this year, otherwise I'll be done for putting original research on Wiki!
I've changed my mind, btw, about proposing fake etymology for deletion (mentioned above); that article could be very useful if we can focus it more on the political propaganda side of things. -- Doric Loon 19:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
"Chaise-lounge" isn't folk etymology, it's a typo pure and simple, at least according to the dictionaries I've consulted.
I'll add my name to the list of degreed linguists who have heard of "folk etymology", but never heard of "fake etymology". In some ways, this is not a surprise, as so-called "fake etymology" is not really a linguistic phenomenon; at best it is meta-linguistic. Just as astronomers have little to say about astrology, I doubt there is much to be found about "fake etymology" in linguistics sources, save for noting particular incorrect etymologies.
To my best understanding, and from reading the sources cited above, what we have here are two senses of the term "folk etymology": the technical sense that linguists use (corresponding to folk etymology) and its extension to a broader, common, non-technical usage (referring to so-called fake etymology).
To my mind, this situation is rather similar to the technical botanical meaning of fruit vs. its common (culinary) definition. And in the case of "fruit", I think it is handled appropriately -- the different senses of the term are explained in fruit. A new term is not invented for the less technically correct usage.
In line with WP:NOR, I would request that at least one reputable (and not wikipedia-derived) source be given for the usage of "fake etymology", as Wikipedia is not in the business of promulgating new ideas or inventing terms.
I think the fact that this issue has been raised again and again by well-informed editors might be a signal that something is not quite right with fake etymology as a separate article with a neologistic name. -- Tabor 18:10, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
It wasn't my intention to propose that linguistics should change its terminology, but rather to establish what actually is the normal use. I stand by the assersion that MY usage and what I THINK I hear most of my colleagues saying is that a folk etymology (= a popular misconception of origins) sometimes causes a word changes its spelling/form/meaning or whatever as a kind of levelling to make the word conform to its supposed origins: the term folk etymology thus refers to the catalist, not the reaction it induces. That is not only the more logical use (which you rightly say is neither here nor there), but it is also what I hear linguists most commonly saying. The above quotes tend to support me on that - the OED certaily uses the phrase as I imagine it. However, if you read the above, you will see that as the discussion progressed (about June 05) I did come to realise that the other way of using the term also has its serious adherents, even if it is not best practice, and I am content to have this page note that there are two ways of using it. -- Doric Loon 09:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I would call the process "analogy". But of course what we most commonly hear is a phrase like "this word changed its meaning by folk etymology", in which the syntax does not make it clear whether "folk etymology" refers to process or trigger. I suspect that the term originally referred to the trigger and has come also to refer to the process because of the ambiguity of that construction. But as you say, since linguists are only interested in false etymologies when they produce results in the language itself, it comes to the same thing in the end, in most cases.
I don't think I would use the term folk etymology for classical or medieval attempts at linguistics. We have an article on medieval etymology, and I think that is something far more structured than the vague popular connections which lie behind what we are discussing here. Medieval etymology may not be of much interest to linguists, but it is crucial for many aspects of medieval literature, cultural history, theology... And if Isidor calls it etymology, I doubt if we can deny him the word. -- Doric Loon 23:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
I saw that the article has changed dramatically this whole time and has swung between different definitions. So I myself tried searching for sources on the internet and basically I see the word used in the two distinct ways, as describing incorrect urban legend like etymologies, and describing words which changed because people didn't understand their etymologies (a much more rare but distinct usage). I think then the article should clearly state that the word is used in two distinct ways, and talk about both, instead of trying to synthesize the two meanings because its confusing that a word can mean two distinct things.
I cannot find any references that make the claim that "sweetheart" is derived from "sweetard", nor can I find any references to "sweetard" being an actual word. All the references that I have found state that "sweetheart" is simply a combination of "sweet" and "heart". In fact, dictionary.com states that is is from ME swete herte.
I have a theory that "eggplant" is derived from a misunderstanding of the Arabic badinjan (aubergine) as meaning bayd-el-jann (egg of the garden), though the word is actually derived from Sanskrit vatinganan (wind-producing). However, I have seen no support for this: has anyone any evidence for or against? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 15:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Just thought I'd say:) Hakluyt bean 02:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed this entry because petty is in fact derived from petit; if this counts as a folk etymology it is a very marginal case. — Tamfang 20:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
There really has been no succesful distinction between folk etymology and false etymology -- at most, it's a kind of venn-diagram thing, and going through Pyles and Algeo, Baugh & Cable, Millward, Partridge, McLaughlin and my own experience (I teach linguistics, but I know that's original research, so I don't put any weight on it) there is NO recognized, systematic distinction between these terms. Therefore, I propose (once again) merging the two topics (I'll cross post at the other). DavidOaks ( talk) 14:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR ( talk) 03:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Folk etymology → False etymology — no distinction in terms, overlap of subject, sources, examples — DavidOaks ( talk) 21:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions."This error has been perpetuated in the grizzly bear's scientific trinomial name: Ursus arctos horribilis" is a false statement made by an individual who clearly has no background in Latin.
In Latin, "horribilis" itself meanse "grizzled," therefore the trinomial nomenclature does in fact reference the bear's original name. I don't know the veracity of the rest of the reference, but I am positive that this one part is clearly wrong.
71.141.238.3 ( talk) 06:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the same article as False etymology, except for that article's enormous introduction; they even contained the same folk etymology about 'lantern' being derived from 'lanthorn', although I have changed that in Folk etymology. Anyway I suggest either the demolition of one of these articles or a furious differentiation; my preference being the first, since I'm more familiar with the term 'folk etymology'.
ClockwerkMao ( talk) 19:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
Although the discussion here was unanimously against the move, someone went and moved Folk etymology to False etymology. You can comment about returning to the status quo ante on the talk page for the article currently called False etymology. μηδείς ( talk) 01:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
I have re-expanded this to article status per the unopposed suggestion of Bkonrad in the requested move which made this title a redirect: [6].
The material suffers a lack of reliable sources, and consists of editorial synthesis, and if not rapidly improved, should likely be deleted. μηδείς ( talk) 03:38, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Recreating a content fork because you think it should be deleted is a terrible idea. Either create an article by establishing that it should exist, or else just don't create it. -- dab (𒁳) 08:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Given that it has been suggested at the talk for Volksetymologie that this article be moved to popular etymology, let me express my opposition. Popular etymologies that happen to be true are simply called etymologies, and there already exists an article for that subject. μηδείς ( talk) 16:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
According to WP:RS we need sources to back up challenged claims. The claim that someone has attributed a false etymology to 'snob' is such a claim, whether or not the etymology itself is false. Please don't remove tags asking for references. μηδείς ( talk) 02:07, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't believe that it is the place of Wikipedia to expand confusion, much less to sow it with assumed authority.
In the end, perhaps all related articles would indeed be better folded into subsections of an overarching article such as pseudo-etymology. Until then, there are certainly steps that can be taken to fight the nonsense.
Confusion is supported from the very beginning(s)—
How can a typical WP user NOT be misled by this??
My recommendation: for the sake of initial clarity, push all of this "a.k.a." garbage back as far as possible!! I believe it ought to be well into the main body of the article, but certainly no further forward than the final paragraph of the lede.
And also put MUCH clearer effort into distinguishing "also sometimes called" from "often erroneously referred to as" terminology. Do this early, and at least allude to it three or four times in the article.
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
15:25, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
For details, see: Gold, David L. 2020. Ghost Meanings Created by Dictionaries: The Case of Dickens’s Use of the Word theatricals. Dickens Quarterly. Vol. 37. No. 3. September. Pp. 226-236.
In all likelihood you can get a free copy at davidlgold.com S. Valkemirer ( talk) 14:42, 6 June 2021 (UTC)