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Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 11:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
I'll be glad to take this review. Let me start by commending everyone involved in this one. I've been reading the recent talk page discussions, and I'm impressed with how well editors are collaborating on what could have been a much more acrimonious discussion. I hope that can set the tone for this review as well.
So my impression is that the article is stable, and the parties involved feel that any neutrality issues have been resolved; if I'm wrong here, please let me know. With that as a starting point, I'll begin my own review. I'll start with a readthrough for prose/clarity/neutrality issues, and then later do a source and image review. I hope to get through the former today, but it could be any time in the next 1-3 days. Thanks to everybody who's worked to bring the article to this point! I'll look forward to reviewing it. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 11:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Okay, Marshal, here are some initial comments for you. This looks quite good so far--it seems neutral at first glance, the prose is strong, the sourcing is clear and seems to all be to reliable places. I made some tweaks as I went, most notably to reduce the link density of the article per WP:OVERLINK. This isn't a GA issue, though, and I'd encourage you revert me if you disagree. I also did some minor rewording for grammar, clarity, or in one case a minor redundancy ("flat plains terrain"). Issues I couldn't immediately fix are below:
Let me know your thoughts, and thanks again for your (and everybody else's!) work here. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 18:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Andres has mentioned a couple of times his dislike of what he calls the "inflammatory SPS pamphlet". I believe this issue can be addressed by removing the pamphlet (it doesn't seem to add anything important). However, aside from that, I believe matters are placed in a difficult stance when coming from a perspective that "a good historiographical summary won't be achieved" (based on that, Wikipedia could never have GA or FA class work on any controversial topic).-- MarshalN20 | Talk 15:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Okay, thanks to Marshal for resolving the initial prose points raised above, and thanks again to everybody who's worked to bring it to this point; it's clear that it's been a long haul. Over the next day or two I'll do a more thorough source review, particularly of the contentious history section. (I'll check images, too.) I'll also check some major encyclopedias for comparison to see how they summarize the dispute in a small space. Regardless of the pace at which I work, I'll leave this open until at least Nov 5 for any other concerned editors to chime in. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 13:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
(Unindent) Hi Khazar,
Navigating through as a reader and going through the comments, I am very surprised this article is even being considered for "Good Article" status. First off I'm sorry that I'm not too familiar with WP formatting, at least not to the degree that everyone else here is, but I hope this doesn't take away from the points I want to make.
Specifically, Khazar2, I hope that you can consider my comments as something from the point of view of a non-initiated wikipedia consumer with some familiarity in the issue being discussed, the history section, which I think is the main point of contention in the article and has, according to the history, repeatedly prevented the GA status being pursued or assign.
I have to be honest in my criticism of your reactions above, and hope that you go back, take the needed time and very carefully re-read and reconsider the input made by Andres Djordjalian above. Please don't take offence, but it seems to me that every time you responded to him you keep saying "dumb it down for me". To put it simply: he can't. No one can. You just have to take the time to read through it. Yes, it's a lot of work. A lot of notes to read. A lot of sources to look at. A lot of article talk pages to go through. And a lot of long comments, like mine here. But that's because it is a complex subject.
As I read your responses to him I hope that you realize the incredible amount of complexity and nuance that regards the Falklands issue in Anglo/Argentine relations. I truly hope that you are up to the task, but - and again, I don't mean to disrespect you in any way - it seems to me that, in the interest of accuracy, if you think it's too much to read through, perhaps you should recuse yourself and assign someone else to the review. That being said, here are the points I want to make.
I find it incredible that you don't see any neutrality issues. The mentioned tendentiousness of the article's history section is replete with pro-British bias in almost every sentence, through a combination of both overt and subtle inaccuracies that act together to cumulatively suggest to the reader that the Argentine POV is wrong or illegitimate while the British POV is right or legitimate. I think this violates the often cited "NPOV" rule.
Since you asked for specifics, I will give three specific examples, out of many MANY more I read and can't mention because I don't have all day:
As Andres said, "it adds up", and the picture it paints is clearly one which suggests that history records Britain did everything right for its title of sovereignty to be legitimate, while Argentina did everything wrong and so its claim to sovereignty must be illegitimate.
Lastly, even a cursory review of the article's history reveals it to be a "battleground" article, where contentious and deep-seated disputes between groups of established editors which many, many times have escalated to edit wars, noticeboards, rfc and even arbitration. The latest example of which has been so recent it can be read in this very talk page, a dispute over units of measurement that dates to the earliest days of this article. It's resolution, years and years and years after it first came up is the exception and not the rule, judging by all the disputes that happened after that still are pending.
By that I mean that historically, in this article, there have been countless accusations of pro-British POV original reserch, cherrypicking sources, fights about which sources make it into the article and which don't, etc. Here's a list of article talk page rows, I'm sure you will agree the tone of the editors hasn't changed that much at all when comparing the level of recent discourse to the level of discourse from years past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_132#Verification_source_citations_is_this_WP:OR_and_WP:SYN.3F http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_18#Neutral_Writing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_16#Vernet_established_an_Argentinian_settlement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_15#.22Britain_re-established_its_rule_in_1833.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_14#Discussion_moved_to_noticeboard http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Falkland_Islands&diff=prev&oldid=435349098#History_Section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_12#RfC:_USS_Lexington_paragraph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_10#IP_Edit_War_Threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_6#Respecting_while_rejecting_Argentine_claims http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_6#British_bias_and_edit_warring_and_POV_pushing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance/archive116 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AWikiquette_assistance/archive111#User_.22Wee_Curry_Monster.22_refuses_to_talk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FEnforcement%2FArchive77#Wee_Curry_Monster
I submit to you that this can't possibly be indicative of the type of collegial discourse indicative of a "good article". How many of these content disagreements over history can we honestly, truthfully say have been solved by consensus, rather than by admin involvement, blocking of editors, or simple exasperation and frustration on the part of editors who have stopped participating altogether?
I think, very few, if any.
Lastly...it occurs to me that this particular article is the perfect example for the enumerated attacks on the validity of Wikipedia as a source (just today, this article came out http://www.kernelmag.com/features/report/6570/who-hates-wikipedia/#), so much so that THIS VERY ARTICLE ITSELF has been reported on by the media ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rafael-fernandez-de-castro/wikipedia-seeks-historic-_b_1955336.html). Surely, there are many other controversial articles on WP, but none that I've heard of whose contentiousness merits their being reported on by major media outlets.
Respectfully, this article should not be given "Good Article" status. It does not even come close. Not while the blatant problems in the history section remain. I would suggest that the problems which prevented this article from achieving GA status still remain, as very few of those objections have been satiated to the satisfaction of the majority of editors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_15#GA_Status
Translated text from above-cited sources:
“I hereby name don David Jewett as Colonel of the Army in the service of the National Marines, with a directorial deployment ongoing, this 15th of January, 1820.
Matias Irigogyen Minister of War and Marines
“The Supreme Director of the United Provinces of South America, attentive to services rendered, hereby names David Jewett as Captain of the ship “La Heroina”, and John Adams as second commander, sailing in the capacity of War Frigate of the State, and directing him to take possession of the Malvinas Islands on behalf of the Supreme Government of the United Provinces and of the Nation to which they belong by natural law. Thusly be it communicated and published.
Jose Rondeau Supreme Director of the United Provinces 15 January, 1820” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.180.253 ( talk) 01:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
While a long-time single-purpose account and a new-to-the-article IP address have raised neutrality concerns, my source review suggests that the article represents its sources fairly and gives them weight comparable to other encyclopedic accounts of Falklands history. Requests for further detail would make sense for the "History of..." article, but not for this overview, and I don't believe that British claims are being presented in significantly greater detail than Argentine. If anything, I would suggest that much more detail be removed from this summary, rather than added, but I understand how the current editing environment makes that difficult.
One source appears possibly unreliable, but it merely identifies a painting in a caption, and has no bearing on this debate. The prose is correct and concise, the article stable, and the images appropriately licensed and captioned. While further refinement is likely possible, the article passes as a GA. Congratulations to all who have worked to bring it to this point! I know it's been a long road. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 02:40, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 11:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
I'll be glad to take this review. Let me start by commending everyone involved in this one. I've been reading the recent talk page discussions, and I'm impressed with how well editors are collaborating on what could have been a much more acrimonious discussion. I hope that can set the tone for this review as well.
So my impression is that the article is stable, and the parties involved feel that any neutrality issues have been resolved; if I'm wrong here, please let me know. With that as a starting point, I'll begin my own review. I'll start with a readthrough for prose/clarity/neutrality issues, and then later do a source and image review. I hope to get through the former today, but it could be any time in the next 1-3 days. Thanks to everybody who's worked to bring the article to this point! I'll look forward to reviewing it. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 11:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Okay, Marshal, here are some initial comments for you. This looks quite good so far--it seems neutral at first glance, the prose is strong, the sourcing is clear and seems to all be to reliable places. I made some tweaks as I went, most notably to reduce the link density of the article per WP:OVERLINK. This isn't a GA issue, though, and I'd encourage you revert me if you disagree. I also did some minor rewording for grammar, clarity, or in one case a minor redundancy ("flat plains terrain"). Issues I couldn't immediately fix are below:
Let me know your thoughts, and thanks again for your (and everybody else's!) work here. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 18:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Andres has mentioned a couple of times his dislike of what he calls the "inflammatory SPS pamphlet". I believe this issue can be addressed by removing the pamphlet (it doesn't seem to add anything important). However, aside from that, I believe matters are placed in a difficult stance when coming from a perspective that "a good historiographical summary won't be achieved" (based on that, Wikipedia could never have GA or FA class work on any controversial topic).-- MarshalN20 | Talk 15:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Okay, thanks to Marshal for resolving the initial prose points raised above, and thanks again to everybody who's worked to bring it to this point; it's clear that it's been a long haul. Over the next day or two I'll do a more thorough source review, particularly of the contentious history section. (I'll check images, too.) I'll also check some major encyclopedias for comparison to see how they summarize the dispute in a small space. Regardless of the pace at which I work, I'll leave this open until at least Nov 5 for any other concerned editors to chime in. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 13:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
(Unindent) Hi Khazar,
Navigating through as a reader and going through the comments, I am very surprised this article is even being considered for "Good Article" status. First off I'm sorry that I'm not too familiar with WP formatting, at least not to the degree that everyone else here is, but I hope this doesn't take away from the points I want to make.
Specifically, Khazar2, I hope that you can consider my comments as something from the point of view of a non-initiated wikipedia consumer with some familiarity in the issue being discussed, the history section, which I think is the main point of contention in the article and has, according to the history, repeatedly prevented the GA status being pursued or assign.
I have to be honest in my criticism of your reactions above, and hope that you go back, take the needed time and very carefully re-read and reconsider the input made by Andres Djordjalian above. Please don't take offence, but it seems to me that every time you responded to him you keep saying "dumb it down for me". To put it simply: he can't. No one can. You just have to take the time to read through it. Yes, it's a lot of work. A lot of notes to read. A lot of sources to look at. A lot of article talk pages to go through. And a lot of long comments, like mine here. But that's because it is a complex subject.
As I read your responses to him I hope that you realize the incredible amount of complexity and nuance that regards the Falklands issue in Anglo/Argentine relations. I truly hope that you are up to the task, but - and again, I don't mean to disrespect you in any way - it seems to me that, in the interest of accuracy, if you think it's too much to read through, perhaps you should recuse yourself and assign someone else to the review. That being said, here are the points I want to make.
I find it incredible that you don't see any neutrality issues. The mentioned tendentiousness of the article's history section is replete with pro-British bias in almost every sentence, through a combination of both overt and subtle inaccuracies that act together to cumulatively suggest to the reader that the Argentine POV is wrong or illegitimate while the British POV is right or legitimate. I think this violates the often cited "NPOV" rule.
Since you asked for specifics, I will give three specific examples, out of many MANY more I read and can't mention because I don't have all day:
As Andres said, "it adds up", and the picture it paints is clearly one which suggests that history records Britain did everything right for its title of sovereignty to be legitimate, while Argentina did everything wrong and so its claim to sovereignty must be illegitimate.
Lastly, even a cursory review of the article's history reveals it to be a "battleground" article, where contentious and deep-seated disputes between groups of established editors which many, many times have escalated to edit wars, noticeboards, rfc and even arbitration. The latest example of which has been so recent it can be read in this very talk page, a dispute over units of measurement that dates to the earliest days of this article. It's resolution, years and years and years after it first came up is the exception and not the rule, judging by all the disputes that happened after that still are pending.
By that I mean that historically, in this article, there have been countless accusations of pro-British POV original reserch, cherrypicking sources, fights about which sources make it into the article and which don't, etc. Here's a list of article talk page rows, I'm sure you will agree the tone of the editors hasn't changed that much at all when comparing the level of recent discourse to the level of discourse from years past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_132#Verification_source_citations_is_this_WP:OR_and_WP:SYN.3F http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_18#Neutral_Writing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_16#Vernet_established_an_Argentinian_settlement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_15#.22Britain_re-established_its_rule_in_1833.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_14#Discussion_moved_to_noticeboard http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Falkland_Islands&diff=prev&oldid=435349098#History_Section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_12#RfC:_USS_Lexington_paragraph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_10#IP_Edit_War_Threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_6#Respecting_while_rejecting_Argentine_claims http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_6#British_bias_and_edit_warring_and_POV_pushing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance/archive116 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AWikiquette_assistance/archive111#User_.22Wee_Curry_Monster.22_refuses_to_talk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FEnforcement%2FArchive77#Wee_Curry_Monster
I submit to you that this can't possibly be indicative of the type of collegial discourse indicative of a "good article". How many of these content disagreements over history can we honestly, truthfully say have been solved by consensus, rather than by admin involvement, blocking of editors, or simple exasperation and frustration on the part of editors who have stopped participating altogether?
I think, very few, if any.
Lastly...it occurs to me that this particular article is the perfect example for the enumerated attacks on the validity of Wikipedia as a source (just today, this article came out http://www.kernelmag.com/features/report/6570/who-hates-wikipedia/#), so much so that THIS VERY ARTICLE ITSELF has been reported on by the media ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rafael-fernandez-de-castro/wikipedia-seeks-historic-_b_1955336.html). Surely, there are many other controversial articles on WP, but none that I've heard of whose contentiousness merits their being reported on by major media outlets.
Respectfully, this article should not be given "Good Article" status. It does not even come close. Not while the blatant problems in the history section remain. I would suggest that the problems which prevented this article from achieving GA status still remain, as very few of those objections have been satiated to the satisfaction of the majority of editors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_15#GA_Status
Translated text from above-cited sources:
“I hereby name don David Jewett as Colonel of the Army in the service of the National Marines, with a directorial deployment ongoing, this 15th of January, 1820.
Matias Irigogyen Minister of War and Marines
“The Supreme Director of the United Provinces of South America, attentive to services rendered, hereby names David Jewett as Captain of the ship “La Heroina”, and John Adams as second commander, sailing in the capacity of War Frigate of the State, and directing him to take possession of the Malvinas Islands on behalf of the Supreme Government of the United Provinces and of the Nation to which they belong by natural law. Thusly be it communicated and published.
Jose Rondeau Supreme Director of the United Provinces 15 January, 1820” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.180.253 ( talk) 01:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
While a long-time single-purpose account and a new-to-the-article IP address have raised neutrality concerns, my source review suggests that the article represents its sources fairly and gives them weight comparable to other encyclopedic accounts of Falklands history. Requests for further detail would make sense for the "History of..." article, but not for this overview, and I don't believe that British claims are being presented in significantly greater detail than Argentine. If anything, I would suggest that much more detail be removed from this summary, rather than added, but I understand how the current editing environment makes that difficult.
One source appears possibly unreliable, but it merely identifies a painting in a caption, and has no bearing on this debate. The prose is correct and concise, the article stable, and the images appropriately licensed and captioned. While further refinement is likely possible, the article passes as a GA. Congratulations to all who have worked to bring it to this point! I know it's been a long road. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 02:40, 6 November 2013 (UTC)