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Archive 15 | ← | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
I have locked the page on the wrong version. Too many people are reverting without even bothering to acknowledge a discussion on this page, much less participate. The editors who are discussing above are expressing understandable frustration at being ignored, and good editors have already left the page. This is wrong. Jonathunder ( talk) 16:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Anyone mind if I change "British Nationality Act of 1983" to "British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983"? The latter is the name of the article, and anyway Acts of Parliament in the UK don't have "of" before the year. Nyttend ( talk) 00:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
In the Etymology section, "the Viscount" should be replaced with "Lord Falkland" or "the Viscount Falkland" per Wikipedia:WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage#References to peers. Surtsicna ( talk) 10:59, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
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I would add to the History paragraph the map file Malouines1783.jpg which shows the names used for the islands in the years before the Spanish take-over. Renaud OLGIATI ( talk) 22:39, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
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reindeers -> reindeer
It's a collective noun. — rybec 19:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
The UK can't even guarantee good government in its own country. How is it supposed to do it 5000 miles away? Surely there is a better way of wording this. Eckerslike ( talk) 20:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
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The reference to "good government" in the fourth sentence of the opening paragraph should be changed to "good governance" - as per the source cited in the article text. It is misleading - incorrect, in fact - to suggest that the UK is responsible for the "good government" of the islands, which is an issue of self-determination. It is responsible for protecting the institutions that allow good government - that is, it is responsible for the island's governance. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 07:55, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
existing:
In 2009, British prime minister [[Gordon Brown]] met with Argentine president [[Cristina Fernández de Kirchner]] and declared that there would be no talks over the future sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7969463.stm | title=No talks on Falklands, says Brown | publisher=BBC News | date=28 March 2009 |accessdate=24 August 2013}}</ref> As far as the United Kingdom and the Falkland Islands are concerned, no pending issue to resolve exists.{{sfn|Lansford|2012|p=1528}}<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/28/falkland-islands-sovereignty-argentina | author=Nicholas Watt| title=Falkland Islands sovereignty talks out of the question, says Gordon Brown | publisher=The Guardian | date=27 March 2009 |accessdate=24 August 2013}}</ref>
proposed:
In 2009, British prime minister [[Gordon Brown]] met with Argentine president [[Cristina Fernández de Kirchner]] and declared that there would be no talks over the future sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7969463.stm | title=No talks on Falklands, says Brown | publisher=BBC News | date=28 March 2009 |accessdate=24 August 2013}}</ref> Brown's position was that there were no pending issues to resolve concerning the Falkland Islands.{{sfn|Lansford|2012|p=1528}}<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/28/falkland-islands-sovereignty-argentina | author=Nicholas Watt| title=Falkland Islands sovereignty talks out of the question, says Gordon Brown | publisher=The Guardian | date=27 March 2009 |accessdate=24 August 2013}}</ref>
reason:
to make it obvious that the sentence is a statement the British viewpoint (current wording could be interpreted as meaning "there are no outstanding disputes" and as being said in the voice of Wikipedia) — rybec 03:58, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Instead of approaching the matter in circles, you could have simply pointed out your concern of placing the Falkland Islands at the same government level with the UK. Right?
Assuming that's the case, which does have a more justifiable logic behind it, an improved sentence I can propose is the following:
Because the problem is not with the structure of the sentence. Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 21:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I hadn't immediately noticed the second ambiguity. I mentioned it once it occurred to me. Here is another Web page explaining the two meanings of "as far as ... is concerned". — rybec 04:37, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
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current text:
As far as the United Kingdom and the Falkland Islands are concerned, no pending issue to resolve exists.
new text:
The UK's position is that, "in the absence of evidence that the [Falklanders] themselves [seek] a change", there are no pending issues to resolve concerning the Falkland Islands.
as discussed above. — rybec 19:11, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
The discussion about units seems to be settled. Perhaps it should be a good moment to request unprotection of the aticle (or at least just semi-protection), and go on. Cambalachero ( talk) 02:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Following on from the discussion further up the page I have a proposal to recommened as a compromise, appreciate if you indicate acceptance or opposition only here, so please dont continue the discussion here:
Units on Falklands-related articles shall be those recommended for non-scientific UK-related articles at WP:UNITS. Where any given unit is explicitly recommended or suggested by WP:UNITS for use in UK-related articles, Falklands-related articles will follow that recommendation or suggestion. No measure shall deviate from those measures without clear consensus, or where other parts of WP:UNITS take precedence.
If we are to have a new consensus, I would like to ask that it be formally closed through WP:ANRFC. If the close is a consensus for the proposal, I would ask that the closer make it clear what exactly has been agreed (particularly with regards the geography question). I want to leave minimum possible avenue for any agreement to be gamed in the future. Kahastok talk 19:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
No offence, but MOS requires both metric and imperial units in this case. The only question is which goes first. That's why this is such a WP:LAME dispute. For what it's worth, I believe we want imperial first, but since both are going to be there, I really don't care very much. -- GRuban ( talk) 01:43, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Note: I have altered the shortcut WP:FALKLANDSUNITS so that it now points at Wikipedia:WikiProject_South_America/Falkland_Islands_work_group#Style_Preferences, which now refers to the statement in the above proposal that achieved consensus, with a link to a diff of the close. Kahastok talk 17:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
The source seems to no longer be properly functioning. Can anyone please provide an improved alternative? Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 18:51, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
As per concluding statements in #Weights and Measures Proposal, please remove the "dispute=flip" clause in the "convert" templates that contain the following text
Martinvl ( talk) 20:25, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
I think the article is ready for a GA review. Are there any outstanding issues that need discussion at this point? Also, could someone please provide me with a quote from the Reisman source that supports the sentence it cites (it's the only source I cannot access). Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 22:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
This article currently references the CIA Factbook in two different ways: via a printed copy and via an electronic copy. When the paper copy was produced, but were identical, but the electronic copy is updated from time to time, making it preferable. Why then was my edit, which consolidated all the CIA factbook citations into a standard format reverted? Martinvl ( talk) 13:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 11:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
I'll be glad to take this review. Let me start by commending everyone involved in this one. I've been reading the recent talk page discussions, and I'm impressed with how well editors are collaborating on what could have been a much more acrimonious discussion. I hope that can set the tone for this review as well.
So my impression is that the article is stable, and the parties involved feel that any neutrality issues have been resolved; if I'm wrong here, please let me know. With that as a starting point, I'll begin my own review. I'll start with a readthrough for prose/clarity/neutrality issues, and then later do a source and image review. I hope to get through the former today, but it could be any time in the next 1-3 days. Thanks to everybody who's worked to bring the article to this point! I'll look forward to reviewing it. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 11:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Okay, Marshal, here are some initial comments for you. This looks quite good so far--it seems neutral at first glance, the prose is strong, the sourcing is clear and seems to all be to reliable places. I made some tweaks as I went, most notably to reduce the link density of the article per WP:OVERLINK. This isn't a GA issue, though, and I'd encourage you revert me if you disagree. I also did some minor rewording for grammar, clarity, or in one case a minor redundancy ("flat plains terrain"). Issues I couldn't immediately fix are below:
Let me know your thoughts, and thanks again for your (and everybody else's!) work here. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 18:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Andres has mentioned a couple of times his dislike of what he calls the "inflammatory SPS pamphlet". I believe this issue can be addressed by removing the pamphlet (it doesn't seem to add anything important). However, aside from that, I believe matters are placed in a difficult stance when coming from a perspective that "a good historiographical summary won't be achieved" (based on that, Wikipedia could never have GA or FA class work on any controversial topic).-- MarshalN20 | Talk 15:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Okay, thanks to Marshal for resolving the initial prose points raised above, and thanks again to everybody who's worked to bring it to this point; it's clear that it's been a long haul. Over the next day or two I'll do a more thorough source review, particularly of the contentious history section. (I'll check images, too.) I'll also check some major encyclopedias for comparison to see how they summarize the dispute in a small space. Regardless of the pace at which I work, I'll leave this open until at least Nov 5 for any other concerned editors to chime in. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 13:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
(Unindent) Hi Khazar,
Navigating through as a reader and going through the comments, I am very surprised this article is even being considered for "Good Article" status. First off I'm sorry that I'm not too familiar with WP formatting, at least not to the degree that everyone else here is, but I hope this doesn't take away from the points I want to make.
Specifically, Khazar2, I hope that you can consider my comments as something from the point of view of a non-initiated wikipedia consumer with some familiarity in the issue being discussed, the history section, which I think is the main point of contention in the article and has, according to the history, repeatedly prevented the GA status being pursued or assign.
I have to be honest in my criticism of your reactions above, and hope that you go back, take the needed time and very carefully re-read and reconsider the input made by Andres Djordjalian above. Please don't take offence, but it seems to me that every time you responded to him you keep saying "dumb it down for me". To put it simply: he can't. No one can. You just have to take the time to read through it. Yes, it's a lot of work. A lot of notes to read. A lot of sources to look at. A lot of article talk pages to go through. And a lot of long comments, like mine here. But that's because it is a complex subject.
As I read your responses to him I hope that you realize the incredible amount of complexity and nuance that regards the Falklands issue in Anglo/Argentine relations. I truly hope that you are up to the task, but - and again, I don't mean to disrespect you in any way - it seems to me that, in the interest of accuracy, if you think it's too much to read through, perhaps you should recuse yourself and assign someone else to the review. That being said, here are the points I want to make.
I find it incredible that you don't see any neutrality issues. The mentioned tendentiousness of the article's history section is replete with pro-British bias in almost every sentence, through a combination of both overt and subtle inaccuracies that act together to cumulatively suggest to the reader that the Argentine POV is wrong or illegitimate while the British POV is right or legitimate. I think this violates the often cited "NPOV" rule.
Since you asked for specifics, I will give three specific examples, out of many MANY more I read and can't mention because I don't have all day:
As Andres said, "it adds up", and the picture it paints is clearly one which suggests that history records Britain did everything right for its title of sovereignty to be legitimate, while Argentina did everything wrong and so its claim to sovereignty must be illegitimate.
Lastly, even a cursory review of the article's history reveals it to be a "battleground" article, where contentious and deep-seated disputes between groups of established editors which many, many times have escalated to edit wars, noticeboards, rfc and even arbitration. The latest example of which has been so recent it can be read in this very talk page, a dispute over units of measurement that dates to the earliest days of this article. It's resolution, years and years and years after it first came up is the exception and not the rule, judging by all the disputes that happened after that still are pending.
By that I mean that historically, in this article, there have been countless accusations of pro-British POV original reserch, cherrypicking sources, fights about which sources make it into the article and which don't, etc. Here's a list of article talk page rows, I'm sure you will agree the tone of the editors hasn't changed that much at all when comparing the level of recent discourse to the level of discourse from years past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_132#Verification_source_citations_is_this_WP:OR_and_WP:SYN.3F http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_18#Neutral_Writing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_16#Vernet_established_an_Argentinian_settlement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_15#.22Britain_re-established_its_rule_in_1833.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_14#Discussion_moved_to_noticeboard http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Falkland_Islands&diff=prev&oldid=435349098#History_Section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_12#RfC:_USS_Lexington_paragraph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_10#IP_Edit_War_Threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_6#Respecting_while_rejecting_Argentine_claims http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_6#British_bias_and_edit_warring_and_POV_pushing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance/archive116 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AWikiquette_assistance/archive111#User_.22Wee_Curry_Monster.22_refuses_to_talk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FEnforcement%2FArchive77#Wee_Curry_Monster
I submit to you that this can't possibly be indicative of the type of collegial discourse indicative of a "good article". How many of these content disagreements over history can we honestly, truthfully say have been solved by consensus, rather than by admin involvement, blocking of editors, or simple exasperation and frustration on the part of editors who have stopped participating altogether?
I think, very few, if any.
Lastly...it occurs to me that this particular article is the perfect example for the enumerated attacks on the validity of Wikipedia as a source (just today, this article came out http://www.kernelmag.com/features/report/6570/who-hates-wikipedia/#), so much so that THIS VERY ARTICLE ITSELF has been reported on by the media ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rafael-fernandez-de-castro/wikipedia-seeks-historic-_b_1955336.html). Surely, there are many other controversial articles on WP, but none that I've heard of whose contentiousness merits their being reported on by major media outlets.
Respectfully, this article should not be given "Good Article" status. It does not even come close. Not while the blatant problems in the history section remain. I would suggest that the problems which prevented this article from achieving GA status still remain, as very few of those objections have been satiated to the satisfaction of the majority of editors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_15#GA_Status
Translated text from above-cited sources:
“I hereby name don David Jewett as Colonel of the Army in the service of the National Marines, with a directorial deployment ongoing, this 15th of January, 1820.
Matias Irigogyen Minister of War and Marines
“The Supreme Director of the United Provinces of South America, attentive to services rendered, hereby names David Jewett as Captain of the ship “La Heroina”, and John Adams as second commander, sailing in the capacity of War Frigate of the State, and directing him to take possession of the Malvinas Islands on behalf of the Supreme Government of the United Provinces and of the Nation to which they belong by natural law. Thusly be it communicated and published.
Jose Rondeau Supreme Director of the United Provinces 15 January, 1820” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.180.253 ( talk) 01:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
While a long-time single-purpose account and a new-to-the-article IP address have raised neutrality concerns, my source review suggests that the article represents its sources fairly and gives them weight comparable to other encyclopedic accounts of Falklands history. Requests for further detail would make sense for the "History of..." article, but not for this overview, and I don't believe that British claims are being presented in significantly greater detail than Argentine. If anything, I would suggest that much more detail be removed from this summary, rather than added, but I understand how the current editing environment makes that difficult.
One source appears possibly unreliable, but it merely identifies a painting in a caption, and has no bearing on this debate. The prose is correct and concise, the article stable, and the images appropriately licensed and captioned. While further refinement is likely possible, the article passes as a GA. Congratulations to all who have worked to bring it to this point! I know it's been a long road. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 02:40, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Since my understanding of Wikipedia's idea of neutrality is to let as many people talk to each other as possible and build a consensus, would it be worth it for bilingual users editing this page to look at the Spanish language version (and for those editing the Spanish language version to come look at the English version)? I took a stab at both, for example adding material from the English article about the newspapers and school systems from this article to the Spanish version, and a little about pre-columbian artifacts from the Spanish version to this one. The English contrib was reverted due to it not fitting WP guidelines about summaries, but my Spanish addition seems to be sticking.
I realize that this may open a bit of a war on contentious issue, but in the interests of all sides being well represented, it might be a fight worth having. What do you folks think? JpTiger ( talk) 06:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
At the very top of the Wikipedia Article, the Falkland Islands are described (in brackets) as 'Las Islas Malvinas'. Despite the BOT only having one official language and that language being English. This is an outrage. We do not tell people how to say 'China' in Korean, we do not tell people how to say 'United Kingdom' in French and we DO NOT tell people how to say 'Falkland Islands' in another foreign language. How ridiculous. No road signs, official documents, legislation, tourism related content or anything similar is ever printed in Spanish in the Falkland Islands. Their official language is English with their entire population speaking the language. The official name of a country or territory is printed in its official language(s) and the language of the Wikipedia Website it is on. So es.wikipedia.org may include 'Falklands' and 'Malvinas' but EN.wikipedia.org need only include ONE language: ENGLISH. To say 'Malvinas' is to say the Falkland Islands belong to a Spanish speaking country. Do they? No. Currently, they are under British control and whether you dispute the matter or not, they only have one language. So I request that this abomination is removed from this article or AT LEAST some proper talk is done on the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnxsmith ( talk • contribs) 09:38, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
It's understandable that the naming is a sensitive issue. However, we must look at it from a purely academic perspective. The name "Islas Malvinas" is the widely known other name of the archipelago in English. Not including it in the lead would be a serious omission, again from an academic context. Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 15:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
First point, Malvinas is not significantly used in English by normal people not connected to the Argentine claim or organisations of which Argentina is a member. The point has been discussed many times since the article was created, and nobody has ever provided evidence of such usage - which is why we do not present wordings involving Malvinas as English.
The top of WP:NCGN calls for "relevant foreign language names" (emphasis theirs) to be included. It seems to me that the Spanish-language name is clearly relevant to the topic, in a way the French-language name is not. I do not accept the claim that including the Spanish is non-neutral - on the contrary, including it goes a long way to demonstrating our neutrality on the sovereignty dispute. I note that our usage on this topic - described by WP:NCGN#Falkland Islands - is consistent with that of many external English-language sources, which treat "Falkland Islands" as primary but note "Islas Malvinas" because of the Argentine claim, particularly in articles related to the sovereignty dispute.
I note finally that the Falklands were a step away from ArbCom over exactly this point in 2005-6. No current editor was involved, but it's worth bringing it to people's attention. The consensus to include both has been stable ever since. I see no reason to change it. Kahastok talk 19:26, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Dear Marshal, congratulations for your sustained and successful effort in bringing this article to GA status! Your Half-Million Award is most deserved indeed. It is so kind of you to share it with other editors too (although my own contribution to this has been fairly minor). Best, Apcbg ( talk) 08:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
To whom this may concern,
Since I have not yet read an article/section on the concerned article explaining the reasons behind the pro-Britain/anti-Argentine results of past and recent Falkland Islands sovereignty referenda, I stumbled upon two online articles #REDIRECT[ [9]] and #REDIRECT[ [10]] written by Mr. John Wight and Ian Mount respectively, that seems to imply that the specific characteristics of Falkland Island's demographics might have something to do with the results of the aforementioned referenda. That is also the reason why I inserted the statement. Note that I worded the statement in such a way giving my insertion and its sources a benefit of doubt--thereby trying to comply as much as possible with Wikipedia's rules on neutrality
I hope this message gets read by the concerned editors and watchers, especially the editors, as I don't intend to start an edit war.
Sincerely yours,
Pcbyed ( talk) 19:20, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Then Cambalachero , Apcbg, Slatersteven, where do you suggest I relocate my insertion? I just find it interesting that immigrants make up half the population of the falklands...and perhaps other people may want to inquire about the effects of immigrants making up half the Falkland population one of the possible factors behind the referenda results
Pcbyed ( talk) 13:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
So, do you want me to add to my proposed insertion that demographics is still inconclusive with respect to the referenda's results? Otherwise, I'll just be placing my insertion on the main article of Falkland's demographics if you want...or I'll revert again if no one replies within the next 24 hours. Pcbyed ( talk) 16:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
So do I just leave you all alone then with respect to this article?
Then, ok, the article's all yours...though I decided to first research about my proposed insertion and when I'm already sure, I may just put in in the demographics or politics section of Falkland Islands/their resepctive main articles in the future, or on a new article discussing the reasons behind the results (or how demography, economic standing, etc. affect the Falkland results). But since Falklands is not really my line of interest (and I admit, I'm kinda lazy), I'll leave that task (of making the new article) for someone else interested to do so.
I would also want to give Mr. Langus the credit for directly and concretely pointing out what may be wrong in my insertion. Thank you for enlightening me.
An edit war averted. Good luck to you guys in maintaining the peace, such as Slatersteven, Kahastok, Cambalachero, EdJohnston, (whomever and wherever you are).
Hope to work with you on other articles, especially Philippine-related articles here in Wikipedia. :-)
Pcbyed ( talk) 12:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)Pcbyed
The result of the proposal was not moved per WP:SNOW. There aren't many cases where it's really appropriate to invoke SNOW for a same-day close, but it's pretty clear that this proposal doesn't "have a snowball's chance in hell" of succeeding. I'm not quite sure I understand the first IP's comment, but depending on its intent, there might not be a single editor supporting this. If it makes this any better for the nominator, I would definitely say there's consensus against this title; six more days of discussion won't change that. -- BDD ( talk) 22:17, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Falkland Islands → Falkland Islands (Malvinas) – Move requested per the discussion in the section immediately above this one. I have no personal position on this matter (so, to the closing admin, please do not count my request filing as a vote in favor or against the move). The rationale in favor is that sources in the literature use the heading "Falkland Islands (Malvinas)" as a neutral title, including organizations such as the United Nations & the CIA. The rationale against is that such a title is unusual for Wikipedia headings and also the fact that the term "Malvinas", in English, is a loaded term. MarshalN20 | Talk 02:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 |
I have locked the page on the wrong version. Too many people are reverting without even bothering to acknowledge a discussion on this page, much less participate. The editors who are discussing above are expressing understandable frustration at being ignored, and good editors have already left the page. This is wrong. Jonathunder ( talk) 16:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Anyone mind if I change "British Nationality Act of 1983" to "British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983"? The latter is the name of the article, and anyway Acts of Parliament in the UK don't have "of" before the year. Nyttend ( talk) 00:23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
In the Etymology section, "the Viscount" should be replaced with "Lord Falkland" or "the Viscount Falkland" per Wikipedia:WikiProject Peerage and Baronetage#References to peers. Surtsicna ( talk) 10:59, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
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I would add to the History paragraph the map file Malouines1783.jpg which shows the names used for the islands in the years before the Spanish take-over. Renaud OLGIATI ( talk) 22:39, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
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reindeers -> reindeer
It's a collective noun. — rybec 19:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
The UK can't even guarantee good government in its own country. How is it supposed to do it 5000 miles away? Surely there is a better way of wording this. Eckerslike ( talk) 20:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
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The reference to "good government" in the fourth sentence of the opening paragraph should be changed to "good governance" - as per the source cited in the article text. It is misleading - incorrect, in fact - to suggest that the UK is responsible for the "good government" of the islands, which is an issue of self-determination. It is responsible for protecting the institutions that allow good government - that is, it is responsible for the island's governance. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 07:55, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
existing:
In 2009, British prime minister [[Gordon Brown]] met with Argentine president [[Cristina Fernández de Kirchner]] and declared that there would be no talks over the future sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7969463.stm | title=No talks on Falklands, says Brown | publisher=BBC News | date=28 March 2009 |accessdate=24 August 2013}}</ref> As far as the United Kingdom and the Falkland Islands are concerned, no pending issue to resolve exists.{{sfn|Lansford|2012|p=1528}}<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/28/falkland-islands-sovereignty-argentina | author=Nicholas Watt| title=Falkland Islands sovereignty talks out of the question, says Gordon Brown | publisher=The Guardian | date=27 March 2009 |accessdate=24 August 2013}}</ref>
proposed:
In 2009, British prime minister [[Gordon Brown]] met with Argentine president [[Cristina Fernández de Kirchner]] and declared that there would be no talks over the future sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7969463.stm | title=No talks on Falklands, says Brown | publisher=BBC News | date=28 March 2009 |accessdate=24 August 2013}}</ref> Brown's position was that there were no pending issues to resolve concerning the Falkland Islands.{{sfn|Lansford|2012|p=1528}}<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/28/falkland-islands-sovereignty-argentina | author=Nicholas Watt| title=Falkland Islands sovereignty talks out of the question, says Gordon Brown | publisher=The Guardian | date=27 March 2009 |accessdate=24 August 2013}}</ref>
reason:
to make it obvious that the sentence is a statement the British viewpoint (current wording could be interpreted as meaning "there are no outstanding disputes" and as being said in the voice of Wikipedia) — rybec 03:58, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Instead of approaching the matter in circles, you could have simply pointed out your concern of placing the Falkland Islands at the same government level with the UK. Right?
Assuming that's the case, which does have a more justifiable logic behind it, an improved sentence I can propose is the following:
Because the problem is not with the structure of the sentence. Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 21:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I hadn't immediately noticed the second ambiguity. I mentioned it once it occurred to me. Here is another Web page explaining the two meanings of "as far as ... is concerned". — rybec 04:37, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
current text:
As far as the United Kingdom and the Falkland Islands are concerned, no pending issue to resolve exists.
new text:
The UK's position is that, "in the absence of evidence that the [Falklanders] themselves [seek] a change", there are no pending issues to resolve concerning the Falkland Islands.
as discussed above. — rybec 19:11, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
The discussion about units seems to be settled. Perhaps it should be a good moment to request unprotection of the aticle (or at least just semi-protection), and go on. Cambalachero ( talk) 02:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Following on from the discussion further up the page I have a proposal to recommened as a compromise, appreciate if you indicate acceptance or opposition only here, so please dont continue the discussion here:
Units on Falklands-related articles shall be those recommended for non-scientific UK-related articles at WP:UNITS. Where any given unit is explicitly recommended or suggested by WP:UNITS for use in UK-related articles, Falklands-related articles will follow that recommendation or suggestion. No measure shall deviate from those measures without clear consensus, or where other parts of WP:UNITS take precedence.
If we are to have a new consensus, I would like to ask that it be formally closed through WP:ANRFC. If the close is a consensus for the proposal, I would ask that the closer make it clear what exactly has been agreed (particularly with regards the geography question). I want to leave minimum possible avenue for any agreement to be gamed in the future. Kahastok talk 19:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
No offence, but MOS requires both metric and imperial units in this case. The only question is which goes first. That's why this is such a WP:LAME dispute. For what it's worth, I believe we want imperial first, but since both are going to be there, I really don't care very much. -- GRuban ( talk) 01:43, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Note: I have altered the shortcut WP:FALKLANDSUNITS so that it now points at Wikipedia:WikiProject_South_America/Falkland_Islands_work_group#Style_Preferences, which now refers to the statement in the above proposal that achieved consensus, with a link to a diff of the close. Kahastok talk 17:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
The source seems to no longer be properly functioning. Can anyone please provide an improved alternative? Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 18:51, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
As per concluding statements in #Weights and Measures Proposal, please remove the "dispute=flip" clause in the "convert" templates that contain the following text
Martinvl ( talk) 20:25, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
I think the article is ready for a GA review. Are there any outstanding issues that need discussion at this point? Also, could someone please provide me with a quote from the Reisman source that supports the sentence it cites (it's the only source I cannot access). Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 22:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
This article currently references the CIA Factbook in two different ways: via a printed copy and via an electronic copy. When the paper copy was produced, but were identical, but the electronic copy is updated from time to time, making it preferable. Why then was my edit, which consolidated all the CIA factbook citations into a standard format reverted? Martinvl ( talk) 13:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 11:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
I'll be glad to take this review. Let me start by commending everyone involved in this one. I've been reading the recent talk page discussions, and I'm impressed with how well editors are collaborating on what could have been a much more acrimonious discussion. I hope that can set the tone for this review as well.
So my impression is that the article is stable, and the parties involved feel that any neutrality issues have been resolved; if I'm wrong here, please let me know. With that as a starting point, I'll begin my own review. I'll start with a readthrough for prose/clarity/neutrality issues, and then later do a source and image review. I hope to get through the former today, but it could be any time in the next 1-3 days. Thanks to everybody who's worked to bring the article to this point! I'll look forward to reviewing it. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 11:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Okay, Marshal, here are some initial comments for you. This looks quite good so far--it seems neutral at first glance, the prose is strong, the sourcing is clear and seems to all be to reliable places. I made some tweaks as I went, most notably to reduce the link density of the article per WP:OVERLINK. This isn't a GA issue, though, and I'd encourage you revert me if you disagree. I also did some minor rewording for grammar, clarity, or in one case a minor redundancy ("flat plains terrain"). Issues I couldn't immediately fix are below:
Let me know your thoughts, and thanks again for your (and everybody else's!) work here. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 18:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Andres has mentioned a couple of times his dislike of what he calls the "inflammatory SPS pamphlet". I believe this issue can be addressed by removing the pamphlet (it doesn't seem to add anything important). However, aside from that, I believe matters are placed in a difficult stance when coming from a perspective that "a good historiographical summary won't be achieved" (based on that, Wikipedia could never have GA or FA class work on any controversial topic).-- MarshalN20 | Talk 15:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Okay, thanks to Marshal for resolving the initial prose points raised above, and thanks again to everybody who's worked to bring it to this point; it's clear that it's been a long haul. Over the next day or two I'll do a more thorough source review, particularly of the contentious history section. (I'll check images, too.) I'll also check some major encyclopedias for comparison to see how they summarize the dispute in a small space. Regardless of the pace at which I work, I'll leave this open until at least Nov 5 for any other concerned editors to chime in. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 13:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
(Unindent) Hi Khazar,
Navigating through as a reader and going through the comments, I am very surprised this article is even being considered for "Good Article" status. First off I'm sorry that I'm not too familiar with WP formatting, at least not to the degree that everyone else here is, but I hope this doesn't take away from the points I want to make.
Specifically, Khazar2, I hope that you can consider my comments as something from the point of view of a non-initiated wikipedia consumer with some familiarity in the issue being discussed, the history section, which I think is the main point of contention in the article and has, according to the history, repeatedly prevented the GA status being pursued or assign.
I have to be honest in my criticism of your reactions above, and hope that you go back, take the needed time and very carefully re-read and reconsider the input made by Andres Djordjalian above. Please don't take offence, but it seems to me that every time you responded to him you keep saying "dumb it down for me". To put it simply: he can't. No one can. You just have to take the time to read through it. Yes, it's a lot of work. A lot of notes to read. A lot of sources to look at. A lot of article talk pages to go through. And a lot of long comments, like mine here. But that's because it is a complex subject.
As I read your responses to him I hope that you realize the incredible amount of complexity and nuance that regards the Falklands issue in Anglo/Argentine relations. I truly hope that you are up to the task, but - and again, I don't mean to disrespect you in any way - it seems to me that, in the interest of accuracy, if you think it's too much to read through, perhaps you should recuse yourself and assign someone else to the review. That being said, here are the points I want to make.
I find it incredible that you don't see any neutrality issues. The mentioned tendentiousness of the article's history section is replete with pro-British bias in almost every sentence, through a combination of both overt and subtle inaccuracies that act together to cumulatively suggest to the reader that the Argentine POV is wrong or illegitimate while the British POV is right or legitimate. I think this violates the often cited "NPOV" rule.
Since you asked for specifics, I will give three specific examples, out of many MANY more I read and can't mention because I don't have all day:
As Andres said, "it adds up", and the picture it paints is clearly one which suggests that history records Britain did everything right for its title of sovereignty to be legitimate, while Argentina did everything wrong and so its claim to sovereignty must be illegitimate.
Lastly, even a cursory review of the article's history reveals it to be a "battleground" article, where contentious and deep-seated disputes between groups of established editors which many, many times have escalated to edit wars, noticeboards, rfc and even arbitration. The latest example of which has been so recent it can be read in this very talk page, a dispute over units of measurement that dates to the earliest days of this article. It's resolution, years and years and years after it first came up is the exception and not the rule, judging by all the disputes that happened after that still are pending.
By that I mean that historically, in this article, there have been countless accusations of pro-British POV original reserch, cherrypicking sources, fights about which sources make it into the article and which don't, etc. Here's a list of article talk page rows, I'm sure you will agree the tone of the editors hasn't changed that much at all when comparing the level of recent discourse to the level of discourse from years past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_132#Verification_source_citations_is_this_WP:OR_and_WP:SYN.3F http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_18#Neutral_Writing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_16#Vernet_established_an_Argentinian_settlement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_15#.22Britain_re-established_its_rule_in_1833.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_14#Discussion_moved_to_noticeboard http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Falkland_Islands&diff=prev&oldid=435349098#History_Section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_12#RfC:_USS_Lexington_paragraph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_10#IP_Edit_War_Threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_6#Respecting_while_rejecting_Argentine_claims http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_6#British_bias_and_edit_warring_and_POV_pushing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance/archive116 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AWikiquette_assistance/archive111#User_.22Wee_Curry_Monster.22_refuses_to_talk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FEnforcement%2FArchive77#Wee_Curry_Monster
I submit to you that this can't possibly be indicative of the type of collegial discourse indicative of a "good article". How many of these content disagreements over history can we honestly, truthfully say have been solved by consensus, rather than by admin involvement, blocking of editors, or simple exasperation and frustration on the part of editors who have stopped participating altogether?
I think, very few, if any.
Lastly...it occurs to me that this particular article is the perfect example for the enumerated attacks on the validity of Wikipedia as a source (just today, this article came out http://www.kernelmag.com/features/report/6570/who-hates-wikipedia/#), so much so that THIS VERY ARTICLE ITSELF has been reported on by the media ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rafael-fernandez-de-castro/wikipedia-seeks-historic-_b_1955336.html). Surely, there are many other controversial articles on WP, but none that I've heard of whose contentiousness merits their being reported on by major media outlets.
Respectfully, this article should not be given "Good Article" status. It does not even come close. Not while the blatant problems in the history section remain. I would suggest that the problems which prevented this article from achieving GA status still remain, as very few of those objections have been satiated to the satisfaction of the majority of editors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falkland_Islands/Archive_15#GA_Status
Translated text from above-cited sources:
“I hereby name don David Jewett as Colonel of the Army in the service of the National Marines, with a directorial deployment ongoing, this 15th of January, 1820.
Matias Irigogyen Minister of War and Marines
“The Supreme Director of the United Provinces of South America, attentive to services rendered, hereby names David Jewett as Captain of the ship “La Heroina”, and John Adams as second commander, sailing in the capacity of War Frigate of the State, and directing him to take possession of the Malvinas Islands on behalf of the Supreme Government of the United Provinces and of the Nation to which they belong by natural law. Thusly be it communicated and published.
Jose Rondeau Supreme Director of the United Provinces 15 January, 1820” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.180.253 ( talk) 01:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
While a long-time single-purpose account and a new-to-the-article IP address have raised neutrality concerns, my source review suggests that the article represents its sources fairly and gives them weight comparable to other encyclopedic accounts of Falklands history. Requests for further detail would make sense for the "History of..." article, but not for this overview, and I don't believe that British claims are being presented in significantly greater detail than Argentine. If anything, I would suggest that much more detail be removed from this summary, rather than added, but I understand how the current editing environment makes that difficult.
One source appears possibly unreliable, but it merely identifies a painting in a caption, and has no bearing on this debate. The prose is correct and concise, the article stable, and the images appropriately licensed and captioned. While further refinement is likely possible, the article passes as a GA. Congratulations to all who have worked to bring it to this point! I know it's been a long road. -- Khazar2 ( talk) 02:40, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Since my understanding of Wikipedia's idea of neutrality is to let as many people talk to each other as possible and build a consensus, would it be worth it for bilingual users editing this page to look at the Spanish language version (and for those editing the Spanish language version to come look at the English version)? I took a stab at both, for example adding material from the English article about the newspapers and school systems from this article to the Spanish version, and a little about pre-columbian artifacts from the Spanish version to this one. The English contrib was reverted due to it not fitting WP guidelines about summaries, but my Spanish addition seems to be sticking.
I realize that this may open a bit of a war on contentious issue, but in the interests of all sides being well represented, it might be a fight worth having. What do you folks think? JpTiger ( talk) 06:16, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
At the very top of the Wikipedia Article, the Falkland Islands are described (in brackets) as 'Las Islas Malvinas'. Despite the BOT only having one official language and that language being English. This is an outrage. We do not tell people how to say 'China' in Korean, we do not tell people how to say 'United Kingdom' in French and we DO NOT tell people how to say 'Falkland Islands' in another foreign language. How ridiculous. No road signs, official documents, legislation, tourism related content or anything similar is ever printed in Spanish in the Falkland Islands. Their official language is English with their entire population speaking the language. The official name of a country or territory is printed in its official language(s) and the language of the Wikipedia Website it is on. So es.wikipedia.org may include 'Falklands' and 'Malvinas' but EN.wikipedia.org need only include ONE language: ENGLISH. To say 'Malvinas' is to say the Falkland Islands belong to a Spanish speaking country. Do they? No. Currently, they are under British control and whether you dispute the matter or not, they only have one language. So I request that this abomination is removed from this article or AT LEAST some proper talk is done on the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnxsmith ( talk • contribs) 09:38, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
It's understandable that the naming is a sensitive issue. However, we must look at it from a purely academic perspective. The name "Islas Malvinas" is the widely known other name of the archipelago in English. Not including it in the lead would be a serious omission, again from an academic context. Regards.-- MarshalN20 | Talk 15:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
First point, Malvinas is not significantly used in English by normal people not connected to the Argentine claim or organisations of which Argentina is a member. The point has been discussed many times since the article was created, and nobody has ever provided evidence of such usage - which is why we do not present wordings involving Malvinas as English.
The top of WP:NCGN calls for "relevant foreign language names" (emphasis theirs) to be included. It seems to me that the Spanish-language name is clearly relevant to the topic, in a way the French-language name is not. I do not accept the claim that including the Spanish is non-neutral - on the contrary, including it goes a long way to demonstrating our neutrality on the sovereignty dispute. I note that our usage on this topic - described by WP:NCGN#Falkland Islands - is consistent with that of many external English-language sources, which treat "Falkland Islands" as primary but note "Islas Malvinas" because of the Argentine claim, particularly in articles related to the sovereignty dispute.
I note finally that the Falklands were a step away from ArbCom over exactly this point in 2005-6. No current editor was involved, but it's worth bringing it to people's attention. The consensus to include both has been stable ever since. I see no reason to change it. Kahastok talk 19:26, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Dear Marshal, congratulations for your sustained and successful effort in bringing this article to GA status! Your Half-Million Award is most deserved indeed. It is so kind of you to share it with other editors too (although my own contribution to this has been fairly minor). Best, Apcbg ( talk) 08:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
To whom this may concern,
Since I have not yet read an article/section on the concerned article explaining the reasons behind the pro-Britain/anti-Argentine results of past and recent Falkland Islands sovereignty referenda, I stumbled upon two online articles #REDIRECT[ [9]] and #REDIRECT[ [10]] written by Mr. John Wight and Ian Mount respectively, that seems to imply that the specific characteristics of Falkland Island's demographics might have something to do with the results of the aforementioned referenda. That is also the reason why I inserted the statement. Note that I worded the statement in such a way giving my insertion and its sources a benefit of doubt--thereby trying to comply as much as possible with Wikipedia's rules on neutrality
I hope this message gets read by the concerned editors and watchers, especially the editors, as I don't intend to start an edit war.
Sincerely yours,
Pcbyed ( talk) 19:20, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Then Cambalachero , Apcbg, Slatersteven, where do you suggest I relocate my insertion? I just find it interesting that immigrants make up half the population of the falklands...and perhaps other people may want to inquire about the effects of immigrants making up half the Falkland population one of the possible factors behind the referenda results
Pcbyed ( talk) 13:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
So, do you want me to add to my proposed insertion that demographics is still inconclusive with respect to the referenda's results? Otherwise, I'll just be placing my insertion on the main article of Falkland's demographics if you want...or I'll revert again if no one replies within the next 24 hours. Pcbyed ( talk) 16:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
So do I just leave you all alone then with respect to this article?
Then, ok, the article's all yours...though I decided to first research about my proposed insertion and when I'm already sure, I may just put in in the demographics or politics section of Falkland Islands/their resepctive main articles in the future, or on a new article discussing the reasons behind the results (or how demography, economic standing, etc. affect the Falkland results). But since Falklands is not really my line of interest (and I admit, I'm kinda lazy), I'll leave that task (of making the new article) for someone else interested to do so.
I would also want to give Mr. Langus the credit for directly and concretely pointing out what may be wrong in my insertion. Thank you for enlightening me.
An edit war averted. Good luck to you guys in maintaining the peace, such as Slatersteven, Kahastok, Cambalachero, EdJohnston, (whomever and wherever you are).
Hope to work with you on other articles, especially Philippine-related articles here in Wikipedia. :-)
Pcbyed ( talk) 12:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)Pcbyed
The result of the proposal was not moved per WP:SNOW. There aren't many cases where it's really appropriate to invoke SNOW for a same-day close, but it's pretty clear that this proposal doesn't "have a snowball's chance in hell" of succeeding. I'm not quite sure I understand the first IP's comment, but depending on its intent, there might not be a single editor supporting this. If it makes this any better for the nominator, I would definitely say there's consensus against this title; six more days of discussion won't change that. -- BDD ( talk) 22:17, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Falkland Islands → Falkland Islands (Malvinas) – Move requested per the discussion in the section immediately above this one. I have no personal position on this matter (so, to the closing admin, please do not count my request filing as a vote in favor or against the move). The rationale in favor is that sources in the literature use the heading "Falkland Islands (Malvinas)" as a neutral title, including organizations such as the United Nations & the CIA. The rationale against is that such a title is unusual for Wikipedia headings and also the fact that the term "Malvinas", in English, is a loaded term. MarshalN20 | Talk 02:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)