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I'll start by saying I'm not an expert in these things. But I would have hoped to see a deeper discussion here.
The word "fact" definitely does not imply truth. Fowler (perhaps in Modern English Usage) had a nice example of a sentence showing this. It was something like
But WP not being a dictionary, we don't necessarily have to talk about all meanings of the word; we want to discuss the concept of fact, presumably as philosophers use it.
So what distinction do philosophers make between fact and truth? I don't know. I would have hoped to find out from this article.
My intuition would be something like the following: Truth is ontological, fact is epistemological. Truth is just about the way things are, whether we can find out or not. To say something is a fact, on the other hand, we should already have found out.
As an example, if I say it is true that Jimmy Hoffa is dead, according to the disquotational theory of truth, I am saying neither more nor less than Jimmy Hoffa is dead. I am allowed to say Jimmy Hoffa is dead without proof, just because it's what I think, taking on myself the risk of being wrong, and therefore I am allowed to say it is true that Jimmy Hoffa is dead under the same terms.
However if I say it is a fact that Jimmy Hoffa is dead, I am expected to have proof, or at least know in general terms where such proof might be found. -- Trovatore ( talk) 19:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
My normal response to this sort of argument is to point out that Wikipedia simply reflects what the sources say, and to suggest trying to find a source supporting your preferred wording. In this case, however, the source ( http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=fact ) says this:
I don't see that source actually supporting the "truths" mentioned in "Facts can refer to truths...". " The phrase "a concept whose truth can be proved" is close but subtly different.
I would also question why that particular dictionary. Why not http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fact, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact or http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 03:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
etc. However such metaphors are usually kept separate from literal meaning. 1Z ( talk) 14:47, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
The first paragraph upto the one that begins "My intuition" are what I have be thinking and arguing for. The only thing I can add is that, what we would have found out to conclude the fact could be an error; thus the fact ending up being false. A fact can therefore either be true or false. Vusi Dlamini ( talk) 04:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
It seems that a link to Truth has been added to the first sentence of this article. It seems weird to me that we'd have a circular definition like this, as Truth links to Fact in the first sentence as well. I propose removing altering that first sentence, or at least removing the recursive link. FrancoTheo ( talk) 17:48, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
I suggest that we reexamine the first sentence of this article as I feel it's not as precise as it could be. I would say that a "fact" is "an expression of information which describes something understood to be extant". For example, is it a "fact" that glass marbles are smooth? Well that would depend on how closely your viewpoint zooms in, would it not? And if the marble just sits there, and we say nothing about it, are there any "facts" about that marble? I would say, no there are not. There are attributes, and we can know them, but we only know them via the means of facts - and we can only correctly know them via the means of true facts. Is the Earth round? It certainly is, far more so than it's flat; but it's certainly not precisely round, is it? So would be it be a true fact to say that the Earth is round? If we use "round" in a general sense, yes; but not if we use it in a precisely true sense. For example, here's a reliable source https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/earth-round.html which calls the Earth an "irregularly shaped ellipsoid". Thus, my point from an editing suggestion perspective, is that we need to put a bit more effort into debating the first sentence in this article for the simple reason that it establishes a foundation, which due to it's limitations, is simply not true enough to properly introduce the subject of the article, which is our understanding of the word "fact". Tondelleo Schwarzkopf ( talk) 15:01, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as “true.” Truth in science, however, is never final and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow. https://ncse.ngo/definitions-fact-theory-and-law-scientific-work
Hey, all! We’ve currently got a conflict between the short article description and the first sentence of the lead and I want to run this by everyone before making any changes. The short description is: “Statement that is consistent with reality or can be proven with evidence.” The first sentence of the lead is: “A fact is an occurrence in the real world.”
The first sentence of the lead is more accurate (although I may want to come back to this sometime later, since it seems to be conflating facts, states of affairs, and events, which contemporary metaphysicians regard as separate, but related, ontological categories)—facts are components of reality itself.
The short description, however, is talking about propositions (I’m assuming this is what is meant by “statement”). Propositions are ABOUT facts, but are not themselves facts, and, per the standard Correspondence Theory of Truth, propositions are true iff they correspond to facts (consistency is an entirely separate notion, as any proposition that doesn’t conflict with the facts is consistent with them, but that doesn’t mean that the proposition corresponds to the facts). And then there’s the issue of proof (i.e., justification), which is confusing things further in the short description. Whether a proposition is fully justified is independent of whether the proposition is true, and, as noted, a true proposition is not the same thing as the fact that is described by the true proposition.
These may seem like minor distinctions, but they’re hugely important in metaphysics and epistemology. Facts are not propositions, justified propositions are not true propositions. I can give a bunch of cites to intro metaphysics and epistemology texts if anyone needs. The SEP’s articles on these issues do a great job, already, though.
Before I propose anything re: an update to the short description, are these any questions about these distinctions or about anything else I’ve said? I think all of our great philosophically trained editors will be on-board here, but just making sure. Thanksforhelping ( talk) 01:47, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
From Cambridge English Dictionary: "something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information"
From Dictionary.com:
From Lexico: "A thing that is known or proved to be true." The present "A fact is an occurrence in the real world" is both wrong and unsuported. There are arguably facts that are not about the real world, such as that Vader was Luke's father. I sugest "A fact is something that is true". Banno ( talk) 21:57, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
I’ve made a modification to the first sentence of the lead to match both our cited sources and academic understanding of facts and truth. The lead previously said that facts are things that are true. According to the cites and academic opinion, propositions, not facts, are the bearers of truth-values, and so it is propositions (and, secondarily, sentences, inscriptions, utterances, etc.) that can be true/false, not facts. Facts are what MAKE propositions true, but facts themselves cannot be true. I’m happy to discuss this, although I don’t anticipate an issue, since the RS do not claim that facts are bearers of truth-values. ThanksForHelping ( talk) 21:43, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
"First-link" game is when you click the first link of an article. I have no other name for it, but almost all editors must have heard that when you click the first link of a majority of pages it ends up at the philosophy page.
I am not sure if this is considered vandalism or was intentionally done, or if I am having a personal epistemological crisis, but at the very least I suppose it deserves a section on the talk page. I am unsure of a solution for this.
The path in question is from Fact > Truth Value [links from 'True-False evaluation'] > Logic > Reason > Consciousness > Sentience > Feeling I am a Leaf ( talk) 20:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Fact article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 31 days |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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For the Wikipedia template for marking articles the need verification (showing as "Citation needed") see {{ fact}}. |
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This page has archives. Sections older than 31 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
I'll start by saying I'm not an expert in these things. But I would have hoped to see a deeper discussion here.
The word "fact" definitely does not imply truth. Fowler (perhaps in Modern English Usage) had a nice example of a sentence showing this. It was something like
But WP not being a dictionary, we don't necessarily have to talk about all meanings of the word; we want to discuss the concept of fact, presumably as philosophers use it.
So what distinction do philosophers make between fact and truth? I don't know. I would have hoped to find out from this article.
My intuition would be something like the following: Truth is ontological, fact is epistemological. Truth is just about the way things are, whether we can find out or not. To say something is a fact, on the other hand, we should already have found out.
As an example, if I say it is true that Jimmy Hoffa is dead, according to the disquotational theory of truth, I am saying neither more nor less than Jimmy Hoffa is dead. I am allowed to say Jimmy Hoffa is dead without proof, just because it's what I think, taking on myself the risk of being wrong, and therefore I am allowed to say it is true that Jimmy Hoffa is dead under the same terms.
However if I say it is a fact that Jimmy Hoffa is dead, I am expected to have proof, or at least know in general terms where such proof might be found. -- Trovatore ( talk) 19:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
My normal response to this sort of argument is to point out that Wikipedia simply reflects what the sources say, and to suggest trying to find a source supporting your preferred wording. In this case, however, the source ( http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=fact ) says this:
I don't see that source actually supporting the "truths" mentioned in "Facts can refer to truths...". " The phrase "a concept whose truth can be proved" is close but subtly different.
I would also question why that particular dictionary. Why not http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fact, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact or http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact? -- Guy Macon ( talk) 03:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
etc. However such metaphors are usually kept separate from literal meaning. 1Z ( talk) 14:47, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
The first paragraph upto the one that begins "My intuition" are what I have be thinking and arguing for. The only thing I can add is that, what we would have found out to conclude the fact could be an error; thus the fact ending up being false. A fact can therefore either be true or false. Vusi Dlamini ( talk) 04:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
It seems that a link to Truth has been added to the first sentence of this article. It seems weird to me that we'd have a circular definition like this, as Truth links to Fact in the first sentence as well. I propose removing altering that first sentence, or at least removing the recursive link. FrancoTheo ( talk) 17:48, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
I suggest that we reexamine the first sentence of this article as I feel it's not as precise as it could be. I would say that a "fact" is "an expression of information which describes something understood to be extant". For example, is it a "fact" that glass marbles are smooth? Well that would depend on how closely your viewpoint zooms in, would it not? And if the marble just sits there, and we say nothing about it, are there any "facts" about that marble? I would say, no there are not. There are attributes, and we can know them, but we only know them via the means of facts - and we can only correctly know them via the means of true facts. Is the Earth round? It certainly is, far more so than it's flat; but it's certainly not precisely round, is it? So would be it be a true fact to say that the Earth is round? If we use "round" in a general sense, yes; but not if we use it in a precisely true sense. For example, here's a reliable source https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/earth-round.html which calls the Earth an "irregularly shaped ellipsoid". Thus, my point from an editing suggestion perspective, is that we need to put a bit more effort into debating the first sentence in this article for the simple reason that it establishes a foundation, which due to it's limitations, is simply not true enough to properly introduce the subject of the article, which is our understanding of the word "fact". Tondelleo Schwarzkopf ( talk) 15:01, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as “true.” Truth in science, however, is never final and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow. https://ncse.ngo/definitions-fact-theory-and-law-scientific-work
Hey, all! We’ve currently got a conflict between the short article description and the first sentence of the lead and I want to run this by everyone before making any changes. The short description is: “Statement that is consistent with reality or can be proven with evidence.” The first sentence of the lead is: “A fact is an occurrence in the real world.”
The first sentence of the lead is more accurate (although I may want to come back to this sometime later, since it seems to be conflating facts, states of affairs, and events, which contemporary metaphysicians regard as separate, but related, ontological categories)—facts are components of reality itself.
The short description, however, is talking about propositions (I’m assuming this is what is meant by “statement”). Propositions are ABOUT facts, but are not themselves facts, and, per the standard Correspondence Theory of Truth, propositions are true iff they correspond to facts (consistency is an entirely separate notion, as any proposition that doesn’t conflict with the facts is consistent with them, but that doesn’t mean that the proposition corresponds to the facts). And then there’s the issue of proof (i.e., justification), which is confusing things further in the short description. Whether a proposition is fully justified is independent of whether the proposition is true, and, as noted, a true proposition is not the same thing as the fact that is described by the true proposition.
These may seem like minor distinctions, but they’re hugely important in metaphysics and epistemology. Facts are not propositions, justified propositions are not true propositions. I can give a bunch of cites to intro metaphysics and epistemology texts if anyone needs. The SEP’s articles on these issues do a great job, already, though.
Before I propose anything re: an update to the short description, are these any questions about these distinctions or about anything else I’ve said? I think all of our great philosophically trained editors will be on-board here, but just making sure. Thanksforhelping ( talk) 01:47, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
From Cambridge English Dictionary: "something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information"
From Dictionary.com:
From Lexico: "A thing that is known or proved to be true." The present "A fact is an occurrence in the real world" is both wrong and unsuported. There are arguably facts that are not about the real world, such as that Vader was Luke's father. I sugest "A fact is something that is true". Banno ( talk) 21:57, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
I’ve made a modification to the first sentence of the lead to match both our cited sources and academic understanding of facts and truth. The lead previously said that facts are things that are true. According to the cites and academic opinion, propositions, not facts, are the bearers of truth-values, and so it is propositions (and, secondarily, sentences, inscriptions, utterances, etc.) that can be true/false, not facts. Facts are what MAKE propositions true, but facts themselves cannot be true. I’m happy to discuss this, although I don’t anticipate an issue, since the RS do not claim that facts are bearers of truth-values. ThanksForHelping ( talk) 21:43, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
"First-link" game is when you click the first link of an article. I have no other name for it, but almost all editors must have heard that when you click the first link of a majority of pages it ends up at the philosophy page.
I am not sure if this is considered vandalism or was intentionally done, or if I am having a personal epistemological crisis, but at the very least I suppose it deserves a section on the talk page. I am unsure of a solution for this.
The path in question is from Fact > Truth Value [links from 'True-False evaluation'] > Logic > Reason > Consciousness > Sentience > Feeling I am a Leaf ( talk) 20:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)