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The image in question, Image:Cumface_color.png, does not accurately depict a facial. It depicts a woman drooling semen out of her mouth. I feel that the image would be best removed and replaced with a drawing of a facial. Joie de Vivre 14:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I have updated the article with a newer image. Image:Semfac01.png This is an image of my own creation, and is not based on copyrighted material. I feel this image is a more accurate representation of a facial. I presented the image as a textbook style illustration. -- Seedfeeder ( talk) 01:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
The woman in the current picture looks really unhappy. I find it quite disturbing and it's probably POV as it implies that facials are degrading and unhappy experiences for the receiving partner. Perhaps you should alter the image slightly so that she doesn't look so miserable? 79.70.76.187 ( talk) 03:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Great new picture. The woman in this seems to be enjoying herself, as one should be during sex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.156.40.226 ( talk) 00:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I cleaned this one up (bad, I know). The two sections that had nothing to do with facial "cum shots" were removed. They should be worked into the Semen article. Also, the multiple inline tags were awful; it's best to just use the template for now. I actually think this article should be merged with Cum shot, as it is just a subtype of that. DeeKenn ( talk) 23:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
All the same, the article is about semen on the face, which means that the material about its health benefits can be relevant—it constitutes the perspectives or even social impact of the topic and is part of why it is noteworthy enough to have a page on WP. The sex magick stuff is just weird though. I don't think it was referenced. If we can agree to look into a merger with the other three articles I mentioned rather than Cum shot, and instead merge that with Gokkun, then maybe we can move forward with this? So is "External Ejaculation" a good consolidating title? I'm open to suggestions. If DeeKenn and Veritas can express their opinions about this and if we end up in some sort of agreement about the mergers and information inclusion, my next step would be to seek consensus at Mammary intercourse because its talk page is actually active. clicketyclick yaketyyak 03:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
My edit should now be more clear. DeeKenn ( talk) 22:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't merge them ALL together. Merge Cum shot, Mammary intercourse, Pearl necklace (sexuality), and Bukkake together. But keep Facial (sex act) as its own separate article. The others are specific/pornorgraphic/group sex acts that should be merged together. Facial (sex act) is its own separate thing. Rustdiamonds ( talk) 15:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that Facial (sex act) works as its own article. I see no reason to merge it. CinnamonCowgirl ( talk) 17:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I mean honestly, is it really needed to have the majority (or any of it really) of this article be about Kobe Bryant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.97.195.231 ( talk) 07:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Through the process of deletions and edit/revert wars this article has been paired down to almost nothing. I am prepared to begin a major re-write of this article, any comments/help are more than welcome. I would like to present a fully NPOV, encyclopedic entry on this subject. -- SeedFeeder ( talk) 09:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I have performed a comprehensive edit of this article. I tried to construct an article that was more comprehensive than the previous version. The article is presented as NPOV as possible based on the delicate subject matter. Moving forward I hope for more constructive edits and additions, as apposed to deletions and revert wars.-- SeedFeeder ( talk) 08:06, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
After reading the below text it appears that there has been a consensus reached that the current picture is unacceptable. I am going to take it down in the hopes that if we feel we need a picture here that we find one of the woman smiling, as one often does during sex. DannyZ 12.156.40.226 ( talk) 01:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I fail to see any type of consensus reached on this page concerning the illustration. Please do not "auto revert" - DJ
No consensus was ever reached on the talk page about an image. The poster's threat of vandalism for deleting his illustration is completely out of line. It does not depict an actual facial, and moreover we need an actual picture. There are many photos out there, and we can do better than this. The interracial aspect of the illustration would needlessly incite many viewers--white and black alike. We don't need that right now. Vasbyt84 ( talk) 15:31, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the unhappy expression on the woman's face is much more likely to incite controversy than the interracial aspect. The unhappiness is disturbing and POV (see my comment above); I think that is what needs to be changed. Why should the interracial aspect be inciteful unless you're suggesting there's something wrong or degrading about interracial sex, which would be POV? 79.70.76.187 ( talk) 03:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, the unhappy expression is quite disturbing. There may be a niche market for domination porn, but it is certainly not a representative of the whole. This picture is clearly POV.
That being said.....are you telling me in this vast sea of teh internets we can't find a single woman that would be willing to allow their picture to be used? I think all it would take is just asking a porn star to use their image. Releasing a single image for public use, especially for wikipedia, shouldn't even but an issue.
Lastly, the interracial aspect of the picture is not needed. While it shouldn't even be a concern, this is still the real world. There are NO organized groups that oppose sexual relations between people of the same ethnic background. There ARE, however, organized groups that very much oppose sexual relations between people of different ethnic backgrounds. Because of this, choosing to show an inter-racial picture is either trying to be edgy, or trying to make a point....both of which are NPOV, and have no place on Wikipedia.
Heck, you can easily have someone argue that the reason the woman is unhappy in the picture is because it's a black man performing the facial. Remove the inter-racial aspect and this whole issue become moot.-- RaggTopp ( talk) 19:11, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I like the picture. Leave it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.60.77.248 ( talk) 06:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I also like the picture. Would you also mind if they were both black? Because it would then give the impression that only black people do this? 89.212.77.133 ( talk) 01:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Why do you even need a picture? Please explain what a cartoon of someone with cum in her eye adds to the article, except to make it more suitable for masturbating to? It's not even a very accurate depiction of the concept, unless you have a source for men's usually producing a bucketful of cum when they ejaculate. Grace Note ( talk) 06:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
For what purpose is this interracial? Undoubtedly, the interracial aspect is needless. In this context it diverts the attention away from that which it attempts to display, and it would be more useful to simply use a black couple to illustrate this example. It seems to send a sharp message to its audience that it need not send. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.191.16 ( talk) 04:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I think the IP was just wondering why, and did not mean it in a derogatory way (unlike the editors who responded with offensive remarks). Shows who the real racists are, eh? Matty ( talk) 02:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I removed the following links from the See also section: gokkun, oral sex, Pearl necklace, Snowballing, and Peter North (porn actor). They are all sexual acts that can be performed without a facial being involved. Peter North, though admittedly a prolific performer of facials, does not provide a reader with anymore insight into this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seedfeeder ( talk • contribs) 20:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I have updated the article with a new image that addresses some of the concerns expressed over the previous images. The previous image discussions on this page are about the files Cumfac-01.svg and Semfac01.png not the current image I added of Wiki-facial.png. -- SeedFeeder ( talk) 09:56, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Please see my comment above. How does this actually improve the article? I'm minded to remove it. Please give good reason for keeping it, beyond "there's no consensus", because the few editors who drive by this page will never constitute a consensus on anything. Grace Note ( talk) 06:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
As it stands, the majority of this discussion page does not revolve around the article (and its image) in its present state. The bulk of discussion on this page involves previous iterations of the article/image. I plan to archive this page within 72 hours of this post unless a reasonable objection is posted. Thank you. -- SeedFeeder ( talk) 09:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Previous discussions for the Facial(sex act) article have been archived, and can be accessed through the archive box displayed on this page. All future discussions should be posted below. Thank you. -- SeedFeeder ( talk) 19:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't agree with the current wording in the first sentence, calling "facial" a euphemism. That would imply 1) that there is something negative about the practice, and 2) that the name was actually chosen as a pun on the beauty treatment. Concerning the first point, it is certainly inappropriate for Wikipedia to make a judgment on a sexual practice enjoyed by many. Second, I contend that "facial" is a contraction of "facial ejaculation" (or similar), where facial is simply the adjective of the noun face.-- 137.138.4.30 ( talk) 12:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't anybody know how to stop the ejaculate hurting the eyes of the receiving partner? I know I have an interest in this and am sure others (both givers and receivers) will also have a keen interest in mitigating the pain, which makes me think if we could find out how one mitigates the pain from getting spunk in the eye the info would belong on here, pro bono publico. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.97.145.131 (
talk)
17:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Let me make myself clear - I SUGGEST that the experts who edit these articles find out how to mitigate the pain of spunk in the eye. I think milk might do it (works with tear-gas, apparently), but I've never plucked up the courage to try it. Therefore, since it will be innately usefull to wikipedia users, I request (and am happy to fill out any form of official request form required) that this article grows a section on how to mitigate the effects of getting sperm in the eye. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.200.43 ( talk) 02:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I find this sentence makes claims that can be misleading.
Mild cases of semen allergy can often be overcome by repeated exposure to seminal fluid.[30]
The reference on PUBMED/MEDLINE only states "Therapeutic options include allergen avoidance by use of condoms and attempts at desensitization."
So all it says is that desensitization is a therapeutic option i.e. an attempt at a cure, but there is no mention of the severity of the case or what the success rate is so the "can often be overcome" is basically a false claim. Also, desensitization is a controlled medical procedure and is not just any kind of "repeated exposure". I don't think anyone would tell someone with a cat allergy to go play with cats to get rid of the allergy.
Maybe it should be changed to something like: Treatment options for semen allergy include avoiding exposure by use of condoms and attempts at desensitization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.6.248.190 ( talk) 18:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
I read the discussions about the images in the archive page 3. Some people commented that they didn't like that the SemFac01 illustration shows an obviously saddened woman and I agree, she does not look like she is enjoying the experience at all. The other illustration, Wiki-Facial, is a much better illustration in my opinion because the woman appears to be enjoying the experience. Furthermore there is no need for two illustrations accomplishing the same thing, perhaps we can try to reach a concensus on which image is favored, and remove the one not favored? Dionyseus ( talk) 02:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Why does the picture have to show cum in her eye? A think its a bit much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.34.24 ( talk) 07:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I am going to repeat a comment from the third archive, which I think is important: "Why do you even need a picture? Please explain what a cartoon of someone with cum in her eye adds to the article, except to make it more suitable for masturbating to? It's not even a very accurate depiction of the concept, unless you have a source for men's usually producing a bucketful of cum when they ejaculate. Grace Note" There is absolutely no way that this image is necessary. A description of a facial should be more than enough (although more than a few lines is much more than enough anyway) to understand what it is - how hard is it to imagine? It is not only an unnecessary image, it is an INACCURATE image as noted by Grace Note, and so has LESS 'encyclopedic' value than plain old photographic smut. And moreover, the only value editors seem to derive from it is debating how inaccurately it depicts enjoyment of the act!! Enjoyment by whom? White males and the horny sluts that service them, apparently! Could this article be any more sexist and degrading to women? Not unless it explicitly called women cumdumpsters. Ah, but it has pictures that say EXACTLY THAT.
These images are unnecessary, uninformative, and above all demeaning towards women. They are obscene and I nominate that they be deleted at once. Alas, I fear that 'SeedFeeder' or some other aptly named persona will disagree, and will offer proof that Wikipedia has no standards that cannot be brought low by horny men and their basest drives. Ickbug49 ( talk) 06:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
to all the self important feminazis.....especially Ickbug
Shut up you little cumdumpster.......sorry I could not resist, You really need to take a pill and realize that most women who hold still for a facial are getting some kind of enjoyment out of it. wether the pics degrade women or not is not the point. The point, its an accurate depiction of what a womans face looks like with cum on it. I dont find the cum over dramatic, some men cum ALOT plain and simple. and as for the pictures value as stroke material....are you an absolute idiot? there are a BILLION other sites...free sites on the web to look at much better porn. Now take a safety pin and pop that big bubble on top of your shoulders you call a head and CHILL OUT.
So, no more images, even home-made pictures? Vacki ( talk) 23:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia does seem to be becoming increasingly censored actually, thus we now have an illustration rather than an actual picture. So thanks to people like you Wikipedia is starting to ignore its own pillars. -- 86.24.23.84 ( talk) 15:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
(Added RFC tag here to accelerate this slow-moving discussion and gain broader input) The Pearl necklace (sexuality) article is not extensive enough to warrant a separate page. I propose we merge it here, as it's a sub-category of facial. If/when its content grows large enough, it can always be split back off into a separate article. I realize this has survived a couple of AfDs, but I'd really like eveyone to think of this article as any other, subject to our practices regarding the extensiveness of content that generally warrants separate articles, as opposed to responding as though this were an attempt to censor the material. I'm all for keeping the content, and am not the least bit interested in hiding it; there's just not enough here for a separate article. Equazcion (talk) 23:14, 23 Feb 2010 (UTC)
This article appears to contain both gender and racial biases. We need to create a gallery depicting all gender and race combinations, or select a single race and depict all gender combinations (yes a female ejaculation is possible). 130.56.89.88 ( talk) 22:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I think it may be time to archive the talk page as we have discussions going back to the early part of 2009. Better yet would be adding an appropriate archiving bot. Any thoughts before proceeding with a manual archive or adding the bot? --Surv1v4l1st ( Talk| Contribs) 17:34, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Why do we have two illustrations of a man ejaculating on a woman, and none of a man ejaculating on a man? Can't we rectify this? 98.238.188.211 ( talk) 19:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
You claim to attempt to represent the majority with these images, yet they both depict interracial couples. Why is that? -- 173.3.154.230 ( talk) 04:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
There are several problems with this section. First of all, it's pretty peripheral to the subject at hand and it's something of a "coatrack" to put it in here. If it's a notable phenomena it should maybe be spun off into its own short article.
Is it notable? Well, to start, this doesn't seem likely, given that semen is quite unlike any face lotion I've ever heard of. It's sticky and it dries into a film rather than than being absorbed by the skin. This doesn't prove anything, and you never know what other people like, but I think it would be reasonable to require an especially high burden of proof to overcome this common-sense objection. So let's look at the content and the refs.
It's a short section, three sentences. The last two sentences are about animal sperm, which we'll get to in a moment. The remaining sentence is:
The Gurley Brown statement isn't properly referenced; the article says its from an interview, but this Slate article indicates its from her book I'm Wild Again. Be that as it may, we can assume that she said it or wrote it. But Helen Gurley Brown is not an academic or researcher or qualified sociologist any kind of respected social analyst. She's a celebrity, a self-promoter, and the former editor of Cosmopolitan which is a popular magazine but not journalistically respected. The cover of the book in question is blurbed with the quotes "Hilarous!" and "Outrageous!" and the Slate article describes here as "...making the media rounds to flog her new memoir". The suspicion that she made this statement solely to gain notoriety and sell books has to be high. This is not a good ref for supporting that this is an actual practice.
The other refs are
So this is not a well-supported sentence and has to go.
The other two sentences of the section are:
While I'm sure that this is an interesting experience for the fish, it really doesn't have anything to do with the subject of this article, which is about jizzing on somebody's kisser, so I also deleted this material. Herostratus ( talk) 00:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Since it was never established that this is a real-life sexual activity (I'm not doubting that it is, only that it's not necessarily notable as such, and definitely not referenced with sufficient rigor), I rewrote the lead to indicate that this is a term of pornography, and moved the article from "Facial (sex act)" to "Facial (pornography)". Herostratus ( talk) 00:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
There are plenty of articles with maybe a not perfect page name (to some), but they have all been decided by consensus in the proper way. I would suggest that any intended page move should go through the requested move process, and allow all users seven days to come to a consensus (or not). Ronhjones (Talk) 21:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
OK, here is the current status: the lead sentence is "A facial is a term for the sexual activity in which a man ejaculates semen onto the face of one or more sexual partners", and there is a one reference for this. Let's look at the reference. It is page 194 of a 2006 book, Sex for Dummies by Ruth Westheimer and Pierre Lehu, published by Wiley. (Except its not published by Wiley. According to Amazon, it is published by an entity named " For Dummies", which is an arm of Wiley.)
OK, let's look at the authors. Ruth Westheimer is known as "Doctor Ruth"; she's neither a medical doctor nor a Ph.D., but she does have a master's from the New School and and Ed.D., and post-doctoral work in human sexuality at New York-Presbyterian Hospital under Helen Singer Kaplan, a distinguished sex expert. There's no indication that she's worked as a therapist, researcher, or professor. She is mainly known as a media personality - she's had a radio show, appeared on pop albums and as a spokesman in commercials for shampoos and cars and that sort of thing, but there's no indication of serious work beyond her post-doctoral studies, although she has written several popular books. She is famous. It looks like she's somewhat to the south of Joyce Brothers, who is at least a real doctor. (All info taken from her Wikipedia article.)
Pierre Lehu doesn't have an article and I can't find much on him. He appears as co-author on several of Westheimer's books and one surmises that he's Westheimer's ghoswriter.
The publisher, For Dummies, I don't know. They have a Wikipedia article which doesn't tell you much. They're not a publisher of academic or scholarly works. I don't know what their reputation is for rigorous fact-checking and editorial standards. But naming your publishing house "For Dummies" does not scream "serious academic or journalistic publisher". They were bought out in 2001 by John Wiley & Sons, which is a serious scholarly publisher. How much control Wiley exerts over For Dummies to bring the line up to scholarly standards I don't know. "Not much" would be my guess.
OK, so what (for whatever it may be worth) does the book say? It's on Google Books, but page 194 isn't available. It's not available through my library network (which is always one of the problems with citing low-quality sources). A search on the term "facial" in Google Books does show (besides some uses of the term which don't apply to this article, such as "facial hair" etc.) this snippet, which is indeed from page 194: "The porn industry has introduced a new facet to oral sex, the facial, where the man ejaculates onto his partner's face. In my opinion, this is humiliating..." and the snippet ends there.
OK.
As I said, I'm not saying that no one has ever done this outside of a porn movie. What I am saying that there is no data and no indication of notability.
This is a highly contentious question and we need to source this as well as a BLP or an article on Israeli-Palestinian issues or that sort of thing, so we need to stick to the letter of {{WP:V]] in this case. So per WP:V, what we would like to see is a scholarly work in a respected peer-reviewed journal, such as a survey or study indicating that that this is prevalent in X percent of the population or something. Failing that, material from respected mainstream media sources with a reputation for vetting facts and exercising strong editorial control, such as the New York Times or The Economist or whatever would probably be acceptable. Or perhaps a serious book from an respected publisher by an established expert who has hard data. And, per WP:V, not much else would be acceptable.
Instead, we get a book by a media personality from a publisher of books such as 15-Minute Workout For Dummies and Cake Decorating for Dummies and so forth. And even then, what do we have? Again with the porn industry: "The porn industry has introduced a new facet to oral sex...".
So this source is completely unacceptable, and consequently I've removed it and the passage it supports. And would you people please stop using sources like this. Herostratus ( talk) 16:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
We have already gone over this. It is in archive three. There is not a new consensus even though an IP choses to ignore it. So my reasoning (although it does not change the lack of consensus for removal) is that two images are neccassary to show it in two lights. 1 is derogatory and one is fun. Neither hits Florida laws and both add value and NPOV. Cptnono ( talk) 06:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
As a black male I find one of the images used for this article noticeably racist. The second image with the black man ejaculating on the white girl is the image in question. While I can understand the authors need to show NPOV, any sexual image with two partners showing one of the partners in discomfort/sadness should be same race to avoid any potential racism. Please someone change the image with the unhappy girl to have both partners as the same race or have them displaced in a non-race fashion (EX: stone figurines, portrait of just a woman's face with ejaculate on it) to remedy this potential contrasted racism. Also while not directly related I wish to point out this article could use a picture of a male giving another male a facial and/or a female squirting on a males face (if that would be relevant to the article) 130.49.142.155 ( talk) 15:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)phDalbert
I agree with Dalbert. I have modified the original image to only show the woman experiencing the facial with limited racial overtones. Keep up the good work everyone! 173.188.2.174 ( talk) 17:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Cptnono I don't think people find the interracial sex an issue. I feel that people find issue with the negative connotation that is directly tied to the dark skinned (presumably an individual of African decent) with the recipient of the facial having a unhappy face. This issue can be fixed by eliminating the man completely or as I think would be more constructive to change the photo to a gay or transgender type facial with the "pitcher" being female. It is somewhat redundant to have two facial (man to women). While they do display the NPOV well they lack diversity. I only wish I was a good enough artist to draw an image to replace the second one :/ 108.32.13.59 ( talk) 21:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
It looks like WP:CAPTION was disregarded with this edit. [2] Cptnono ( talk) 03:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
(←) To continue "What do you want your audience to notice in the image, and why?" Kenilworth Terrace ( talk) 22:15, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Unnecessary amount of pictures on this article. Currently the article shows two pictures that are basically the same. One should be deleted for fear of redundancy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.1.66.170 ( talk) 03:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
ha thanks for moving my comment. How do I comment correctly with a signature? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.1.66.170 ( talk) 03:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
In the "Cultural perceptions" section, the "In society" subsection begins "The frequency at which facials are performed amongst the general public is unknown...". And nothing in the section improves on this. There is some material which could be called "original research", except that it's not even research, it's just straight-out speculation. This section has absolutely nothing to say and needs to be removed.
There are three refs in the section (it looks like four, but two are to the same source). They are:
However, I don't think that this is a particularly useful or well-supported statement, so I removed the section in its entirety, Herostratus ( talk) 15:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
I disagree with the removal of prevalence information. Saying that not much is known, with a ref, is superior to saying nothing. By the way, Slade cites Cindy Patton for that info [3]; he doesn't posit it himself:
“ | Patton [...] notes also that heterosexual men rarely imitate the behavior they see in films in their own sexual lives, despite lots of anecdotal testimony to the contrary. "Clearly", says Patton, "few heterosexual men engage in this practice in real life." | ” |
You can read Patton's bio here I think she's sufficiently qualified that we can cite her opinion on this with attribution, lacking more substantial evidence. Tijfo098 ( talk) 13:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Also, User:Cptnono said below on this talk page that The Kinsey Institute new report on sex has something to say about this, but Google books won't let me see that page in my neck of the woods. Tijfo098 ( talk) 13:12, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
I gather from reading the discussion that most folks think there are duplicate images or offensive images etc., but the artist has a bias in having her pictures on the article. Despite continual feedback the only response is "make your own." I will say that replacing the images is not the only solution. Removing them entirely is an option. Just because an artist wants her pictures up does not mean they ought to be. I am suggesting that the images be removed if the community has suggested that but the artist is biased toward her own art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Interstate295revisited ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Since reverting to combat vandalism has come up: I continue to support reverts to any edit that highlights race. [4] It is not necessary and has even been mocked by IPs on this talk page and racist terms ave been inserte dpreviousley (do I really need ot provide a diff). So to make sur everything is covered in my argument for the complete and understood validation of this comment: 1) we do not need to highlight race since it is not the subject 2) we do not need to highlight one race over another and anyone who does is obviously trolling 3) We all want to fight vandalism. Cptnono ( talk) 05:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Using the captions to the two images to describe the women as "black-haired" and "brown-haired" is just an enlightening as describing one of the women as "unsmiling". There is no rationale for such an asinine caption. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 05:59, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
I have noticed over the years that facials are a lot more common in pornography than they used to be. Anybody know why that is? Was hoping maybe this article would shed some light on the subject. I remember porn in the 80s would sometimes end in a facial if the woman was performing oral sex or giving the guy a hand job, but usually he would just pull out and shoot from whatever position they were in. Now days, it seems like almost every single scene ends in a facial (which I consider to be quite unfortunate), where the two performers have to do some crazy gymnastics to get in position before the guy ejaculates, or the scene just randomly switches to the guy jerking off in the woman's face for no apparent reason. Did we one day decide as a society that pretty much all porn should end this way, and I just missed the memo? Do people find this sort of thing to be more authentic? I've had sex with a lot of different women, and have never came on their face, nor have I ever wanted to. Guess I just don't understand the fascination, or how and why it became so popular in porn. 70.114.146.78 ( talk) 05:01, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I agree. The second picture should be removed. It is humiliating for females! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joanakestlar ( talk • contribs) 14:09, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Boy, we really did need those illustrations. I don't think anyone could have understood the article with not one, but two racist, offensive, and pointless images. -- 173.3.154.230 ( talk) 04:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
lmao they white dick cums on the girl and she's happy, they black dick cums on the girl and she's sad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meanstrade ( talk • contribs) 01:59, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
(moved to correct location) OK, this may seem childish or trivial, but if you look at the pictures, the one with the two white people shows the woman apparently enjoying herself, while in the case of the interracial couple, she clearly is distraught. I'm not one to nitpick edgy content, but in this case, that definitely looks racist. ProudlyAnon ( talk) 01:15, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Cptnono must have made the images, for no rational argument seems to persuade her that the community disagrees. We can't be married to every change we make, we must work as a group, and Cptnono seems to prefer showing off her art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Interstate295revisited ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the submissiveness of the photo could indicate that the woman might be willingly used as a bottom like in BDSM. --The Educated 13:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brow276 ( talk • contribs)
Unnecessary amount of pictures on this article. Currently the article shows two pictures that are basically the same. One should be deleted for fear of redundancy. Either that or why not add 50 cartooned pictures of sexual facials? Just use one at the top please.
i came here from dramatica, i saw those pics there and was like "omg is that for realz", and am happy to see that yes, it is for real. thanks to artist(s), i had the lulz 91.204.237.181 ( talk) 11:16, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
I removed the second image as it serves no purpose. However, it was added back in with a comment saying that the "consensus" was to have two images for "balance". I cannot see that discussion or consensus anywhere here on the Talk page. I can only see that I am not the only one to believe that the second image serves no purpose as it is nearly identical to the first image (though it seems to illustrate a larger quantity of semen). I recommend the second image is removed, but am not going to get into pointless debates on here, nor bother removing the image again myself. I simply edit Wikipedia occasionally when I see mistaken or irrelevant content. I strongly believe in Wikipedia's potential as a useful online encyclopaedia. Having two images on this article seems pointless. Why did the artist even draw two near identical pictures in the first place? I have seen no other article on Wikipedia that uses two near-identical images like this. An image should uniquely illustrate one unique piece of information. That is done by the first image. Why is a second image necessary? - 12:25 17 June 2011 (GMT) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.2.181.72 ( talk)
I agree. Only one picture should be used. Otherwise it just makes the article smutty. I suggest using the one where both the penis and the girl appear happy as happy sex acts are less open to negative perspectives related to any potential racial undertones one may perceive (though i do not perceive any from either photo)
108.17.109.131 ( talk) 00:36, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
I deleted the lower picture of the facial with the unhappy girl. There seems to be consensus on too many pictures in this article after reading the discussion page in full. If anyone feels this was a rash decision please revert the image back into the article but post here why you think we need more descriptive images for this short article.
108.17.109.131 ( talk) 00:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
So, this single page manages to sum up most of what's wrong with Wikipedia. Let's take a look, shall we? The problem is the images (well, one of them, I don't even know where to begin with the rest of the page). There are two images here, each portraying the subject of the article. They are almost completely identical. Therefore, the logical assumption is that one of the images is completely redundant, and needs to be removed. Of course, it doesn't end there. It just so happens that the ONLY difference between the two images is 1. the race of one of the participants and 2. the reaction of the other. Basically, the difference is you make the male in one picture black, and suddenly the female has a terrified expression. Cool, so one of the images is racist. Could it be racist to interpret it that way? Well, no, because the ONLY difference is, again, the race of the male, which makes the reason for the change in reaction obvious. More importantly, is it okay to portray the subject in such a light that makes it seem non-consensual?
Obviously, as all the other entries on this talk page will attest to, that second image NEEDS TO BE DELETED. But for a second, lets forget the horrible connotations arisen from the combination of these images. Let's say that the second image was something that actually illustrated something or, at the very least, was identical. Or maybe the woman in the second picture has some sort of muscular disorder, and she's trying her damnedest to smile. Fair enough, but why two? Is wikipedia trying to become some sort of pornographic gallery? No, really, I looked. Just for fun, I checked out some of the other articles on human sexuality. Now, I'm asexual myself, and as a former defender of wikipedia, I'm certainly not going to come out and say images illustrating sexual acts are just out of line. Of course that's ridiculous, it's supposed to be an encyclopedia... right? But, looking at some of these other pages... I mean... wow. Do you really need 5 images for missionary position? Or three for hogtie? As a matter of fact, I've seen that model before. She's from an... australian? I think australian paysite that specializes in bdsm sort of stuff. There was a video she had on youtube but, near as I can remember, it got taken down. So, you're illustrating an article with three images, at least one from a professional porn site that youtube saw as explicit enough to take down just a sample?
By keeping the second image up, your article tells the world that not only is wikipedia racist, but their primary concern with articles on human sexuality is not to educate, but rather to post whole galleries of redundant images just to get off on. But it doesn't have to be like this, wikipedia, oh no. You COULD change. Every last smurfing comment on this talk page says the same thing with one loud unified voice: TAKE THE SECOND IMAGE DOWN. Someone grows some balls and really does delete it. What then? Do we rejoice? Has wikipedia reclaimed it's fast fading integrity? No. It is treated as VANDALISM and the change is reverted.
Lastly, I want to bring up a very important factor in how I even managed to find this train-wreck of an article. I was linked here from a COMEDY SITE. Ecyclopedia Dramatica has a hilarious animated gif that displays the none-to-subtle and outright vulgar display of racism that I thought, surely, not even wikipedia would sink to. So what if they still argue about birds being dinosaurs as if it were the 1920's or some nonsense. They certainly wouldn't display something so outlandish and horrible. The way it's presented in the article I linked, of course, plays it for laughs, because it's so obnoxiously blatant it couldn't possibly be true. Imagine my surprise when I followed THEIR link to find that, yes, the parody of wikipedia is simply THE EXACT SAME CONTENT AS THE SOURCE.
You have a choice, wikipedia. You can either delete the image and act like any of the more reputable wiki's I've seen, or you can remain the butt of a joke so offensive that you've slipped into some bizarre Sarah Palin territory where the parody and the original are the exact same thing.
Haha, no one's even going to read this. Cultistofvertigo ( talk) 02:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Total newcomer to this article, i'm quite sexually liberated etc. but I do think the pictures are a bit of a joke. I was quite surprised and amused to see them, but there is really no need, esp. not for the 2nd one. 2.103.41.112 ( talk) 02:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Why are these images still up? I see no evidence from the talk page that anyone aside from Cptnono supports this "consensus". We have only the repeated, abject denial that the second image might conceivably be viewed as racist and humiliating. Wikipedia is not censored, but
Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available.
Perhaps the first image is useful for people who have never heard of this act. But does anyone seriously argue that omission of the second image would make the article "less informative, relevant, or accurate"; i.e. that readers are unable to imagine a woman frowning and with more semen on her face having seen the first image? Perhaps we should add yet more "educational" images featuring surprised, frightened, and angry women as well. ( lws ( talk) 17:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC))
Any chance that we can have an image of a man being on the receiving end? Just trying to keep it gender equal =) SarahStierch ( talk) 18:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
There's this text at the top of the page:
Mind you, there's already an editnotice template placed on the article, so this text is redundant. But, really, "act of vandalism"? That's a bit over the top. Editors are entitled to make edits that they think in good faith will improve the Wikipedia per WP:BRD without being told in advance that this is "vandalism". Vandalism is pretty serious offense and we want to be careful slinging that term around.
In addition, "consensus has been reached" is probably not a good construction since consensus changes and isn't set in stone.
It's probably not a good idea for editors to remove the images without checking on the talk page first. It'd just be contentious and waste everyone's time. So "Please discuss any image changes on this article's discussion page before editing" is OK, although redundant with the editnotice. At any rate, either the entire passage should be deleted, or if not that then the first two sentences removed, or certainly at rate we shouldn't be preemptively accusing editors of vandalism. Herostratus ( talk) 06:42, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Should these two articles be merged? The Cum shot article is essentially the same as this one. Unless someone would like to expand either or both articles, I would recommend we merge them. Any thoughts? Who Is Christopher? ( talk) 19:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The image in question, Image:Cumface_color.png, does not accurately depict a facial. It depicts a woman drooling semen out of her mouth. I feel that the image would be best removed and replaced with a drawing of a facial. Joie de Vivre 14:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I have updated the article with a newer image. Image:Semfac01.png This is an image of my own creation, and is not based on copyrighted material. I feel this image is a more accurate representation of a facial. I presented the image as a textbook style illustration. -- Seedfeeder ( talk) 01:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
The woman in the current picture looks really unhappy. I find it quite disturbing and it's probably POV as it implies that facials are degrading and unhappy experiences for the receiving partner. Perhaps you should alter the image slightly so that she doesn't look so miserable? 79.70.76.187 ( talk) 03:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Great new picture. The woman in this seems to be enjoying herself, as one should be during sex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.156.40.226 ( talk) 00:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I cleaned this one up (bad, I know). The two sections that had nothing to do with facial "cum shots" were removed. They should be worked into the Semen article. Also, the multiple inline tags were awful; it's best to just use the template for now. I actually think this article should be merged with Cum shot, as it is just a subtype of that. DeeKenn ( talk) 23:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
All the same, the article is about semen on the face, which means that the material about its health benefits can be relevant—it constitutes the perspectives or even social impact of the topic and is part of why it is noteworthy enough to have a page on WP. The sex magick stuff is just weird though. I don't think it was referenced. If we can agree to look into a merger with the other three articles I mentioned rather than Cum shot, and instead merge that with Gokkun, then maybe we can move forward with this? So is "External Ejaculation" a good consolidating title? I'm open to suggestions. If DeeKenn and Veritas can express their opinions about this and if we end up in some sort of agreement about the mergers and information inclusion, my next step would be to seek consensus at Mammary intercourse because its talk page is actually active. clicketyclick yaketyyak 03:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
My edit should now be more clear. DeeKenn ( talk) 22:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Don't merge them ALL together. Merge Cum shot, Mammary intercourse, Pearl necklace (sexuality), and Bukkake together. But keep Facial (sex act) as its own separate article. The others are specific/pornorgraphic/group sex acts that should be merged together. Facial (sex act) is its own separate thing. Rustdiamonds ( talk) 15:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that Facial (sex act) works as its own article. I see no reason to merge it. CinnamonCowgirl ( talk) 17:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I mean honestly, is it really needed to have the majority (or any of it really) of this article be about Kobe Bryant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.97.195.231 ( talk) 07:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Through the process of deletions and edit/revert wars this article has been paired down to almost nothing. I am prepared to begin a major re-write of this article, any comments/help are more than welcome. I would like to present a fully NPOV, encyclopedic entry on this subject. -- SeedFeeder ( talk) 09:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
I have performed a comprehensive edit of this article. I tried to construct an article that was more comprehensive than the previous version. The article is presented as NPOV as possible based on the delicate subject matter. Moving forward I hope for more constructive edits and additions, as apposed to deletions and revert wars.-- SeedFeeder ( talk) 08:06, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
After reading the below text it appears that there has been a consensus reached that the current picture is unacceptable. I am going to take it down in the hopes that if we feel we need a picture here that we find one of the woman smiling, as one often does during sex. DannyZ 12.156.40.226 ( talk) 01:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I fail to see any type of consensus reached on this page concerning the illustration. Please do not "auto revert" - DJ
No consensus was ever reached on the talk page about an image. The poster's threat of vandalism for deleting his illustration is completely out of line. It does not depict an actual facial, and moreover we need an actual picture. There are many photos out there, and we can do better than this. The interracial aspect of the illustration would needlessly incite many viewers--white and black alike. We don't need that right now. Vasbyt84 ( talk) 15:31, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I think the unhappy expression on the woman's face is much more likely to incite controversy than the interracial aspect. The unhappiness is disturbing and POV (see my comment above); I think that is what needs to be changed. Why should the interracial aspect be inciteful unless you're suggesting there's something wrong or degrading about interracial sex, which would be POV? 79.70.76.187 ( talk) 03:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, the unhappy expression is quite disturbing. There may be a niche market for domination porn, but it is certainly not a representative of the whole. This picture is clearly POV.
That being said.....are you telling me in this vast sea of teh internets we can't find a single woman that would be willing to allow their picture to be used? I think all it would take is just asking a porn star to use their image. Releasing a single image for public use, especially for wikipedia, shouldn't even but an issue.
Lastly, the interracial aspect of the picture is not needed. While it shouldn't even be a concern, this is still the real world. There are NO organized groups that oppose sexual relations between people of the same ethnic background. There ARE, however, organized groups that very much oppose sexual relations between people of different ethnic backgrounds. Because of this, choosing to show an inter-racial picture is either trying to be edgy, or trying to make a point....both of which are NPOV, and have no place on Wikipedia.
Heck, you can easily have someone argue that the reason the woman is unhappy in the picture is because it's a black man performing the facial. Remove the inter-racial aspect and this whole issue become moot.-- RaggTopp ( talk) 19:11, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
I like the picture. Leave it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.60.77.248 ( talk) 06:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
I also like the picture. Would you also mind if they were both black? Because it would then give the impression that only black people do this? 89.212.77.133 ( talk) 01:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Why do you even need a picture? Please explain what a cartoon of someone with cum in her eye adds to the article, except to make it more suitable for masturbating to? It's not even a very accurate depiction of the concept, unless you have a source for men's usually producing a bucketful of cum when they ejaculate. Grace Note ( talk) 06:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
For what purpose is this interracial? Undoubtedly, the interracial aspect is needless. In this context it diverts the attention away from that which it attempts to display, and it would be more useful to simply use a black couple to illustrate this example. It seems to send a sharp message to its audience that it need not send. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.191.16 ( talk) 04:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I think the IP was just wondering why, and did not mean it in a derogatory way (unlike the editors who responded with offensive remarks). Shows who the real racists are, eh? Matty ( talk) 02:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I removed the following links from the See also section: gokkun, oral sex, Pearl necklace, Snowballing, and Peter North (porn actor). They are all sexual acts that can be performed without a facial being involved. Peter North, though admittedly a prolific performer of facials, does not provide a reader with anymore insight into this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seedfeeder ( talk • contribs) 20:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I have updated the article with a new image that addresses some of the concerns expressed over the previous images. The previous image discussions on this page are about the files Cumfac-01.svg and Semfac01.png not the current image I added of Wiki-facial.png. -- SeedFeeder ( talk) 09:56, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Please see my comment above. How does this actually improve the article? I'm minded to remove it. Please give good reason for keeping it, beyond "there's no consensus", because the few editors who drive by this page will never constitute a consensus on anything. Grace Note ( talk) 06:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
As it stands, the majority of this discussion page does not revolve around the article (and its image) in its present state. The bulk of discussion on this page involves previous iterations of the article/image. I plan to archive this page within 72 hours of this post unless a reasonable objection is posted. Thank you. -- SeedFeeder ( talk) 09:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Previous discussions for the Facial(sex act) article have been archived, and can be accessed through the archive box displayed on this page. All future discussions should be posted below. Thank you. -- SeedFeeder ( talk) 19:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't agree with the current wording in the first sentence, calling "facial" a euphemism. That would imply 1) that there is something negative about the practice, and 2) that the name was actually chosen as a pun on the beauty treatment. Concerning the first point, it is certainly inappropriate for Wikipedia to make a judgment on a sexual practice enjoyed by many. Second, I contend that "facial" is a contraction of "facial ejaculation" (or similar), where facial is simply the adjective of the noun face.-- 137.138.4.30 ( talk) 12:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't anybody know how to stop the ejaculate hurting the eyes of the receiving partner? I know I have an interest in this and am sure others (both givers and receivers) will also have a keen interest in mitigating the pain, which makes me think if we could find out how one mitigates the pain from getting spunk in the eye the info would belong on here, pro bono publico. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.97.145.131 (
talk)
17:23, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Let me make myself clear - I SUGGEST that the experts who edit these articles find out how to mitigate the pain of spunk in the eye. I think milk might do it (works with tear-gas, apparently), but I've never plucked up the courage to try it. Therefore, since it will be innately usefull to wikipedia users, I request (and am happy to fill out any form of official request form required) that this article grows a section on how to mitigate the effects of getting sperm in the eye. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.200.43 ( talk) 02:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I find this sentence makes claims that can be misleading.
Mild cases of semen allergy can often be overcome by repeated exposure to seminal fluid.[30]
The reference on PUBMED/MEDLINE only states "Therapeutic options include allergen avoidance by use of condoms and attempts at desensitization."
So all it says is that desensitization is a therapeutic option i.e. an attempt at a cure, but there is no mention of the severity of the case or what the success rate is so the "can often be overcome" is basically a false claim. Also, desensitization is a controlled medical procedure and is not just any kind of "repeated exposure". I don't think anyone would tell someone with a cat allergy to go play with cats to get rid of the allergy.
Maybe it should be changed to something like: Treatment options for semen allergy include avoiding exposure by use of condoms and attempts at desensitization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.6.248.190 ( talk) 18:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
I read the discussions about the images in the archive page 3. Some people commented that they didn't like that the SemFac01 illustration shows an obviously saddened woman and I agree, she does not look like she is enjoying the experience at all. The other illustration, Wiki-Facial, is a much better illustration in my opinion because the woman appears to be enjoying the experience. Furthermore there is no need for two illustrations accomplishing the same thing, perhaps we can try to reach a concensus on which image is favored, and remove the one not favored? Dionyseus ( talk) 02:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Why does the picture have to show cum in her eye? A think its a bit much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.194.34.24 ( talk) 07:56, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
I am going to repeat a comment from the third archive, which I think is important: "Why do you even need a picture? Please explain what a cartoon of someone with cum in her eye adds to the article, except to make it more suitable for masturbating to? It's not even a very accurate depiction of the concept, unless you have a source for men's usually producing a bucketful of cum when they ejaculate. Grace Note" There is absolutely no way that this image is necessary. A description of a facial should be more than enough (although more than a few lines is much more than enough anyway) to understand what it is - how hard is it to imagine? It is not only an unnecessary image, it is an INACCURATE image as noted by Grace Note, and so has LESS 'encyclopedic' value than plain old photographic smut. And moreover, the only value editors seem to derive from it is debating how inaccurately it depicts enjoyment of the act!! Enjoyment by whom? White males and the horny sluts that service them, apparently! Could this article be any more sexist and degrading to women? Not unless it explicitly called women cumdumpsters. Ah, but it has pictures that say EXACTLY THAT.
These images are unnecessary, uninformative, and above all demeaning towards women. They are obscene and I nominate that they be deleted at once. Alas, I fear that 'SeedFeeder' or some other aptly named persona will disagree, and will offer proof that Wikipedia has no standards that cannot be brought low by horny men and their basest drives. Ickbug49 ( talk) 06:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
to all the self important feminazis.....especially Ickbug
Shut up you little cumdumpster.......sorry I could not resist, You really need to take a pill and realize that most women who hold still for a facial are getting some kind of enjoyment out of it. wether the pics degrade women or not is not the point. The point, its an accurate depiction of what a womans face looks like with cum on it. I dont find the cum over dramatic, some men cum ALOT plain and simple. and as for the pictures value as stroke material....are you an absolute idiot? there are a BILLION other sites...free sites on the web to look at much better porn. Now take a safety pin and pop that big bubble on top of your shoulders you call a head and CHILL OUT.
So, no more images, even home-made pictures? Vacki ( talk) 23:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia does seem to be becoming increasingly censored actually, thus we now have an illustration rather than an actual picture. So thanks to people like you Wikipedia is starting to ignore its own pillars. -- 86.24.23.84 ( talk) 15:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
(Added RFC tag here to accelerate this slow-moving discussion and gain broader input) The Pearl necklace (sexuality) article is not extensive enough to warrant a separate page. I propose we merge it here, as it's a sub-category of facial. If/when its content grows large enough, it can always be split back off into a separate article. I realize this has survived a couple of AfDs, but I'd really like eveyone to think of this article as any other, subject to our practices regarding the extensiveness of content that generally warrants separate articles, as opposed to responding as though this were an attempt to censor the material. I'm all for keeping the content, and am not the least bit interested in hiding it; there's just not enough here for a separate article. Equazcion (talk) 23:14, 23 Feb 2010 (UTC)
This article appears to contain both gender and racial biases. We need to create a gallery depicting all gender and race combinations, or select a single race and depict all gender combinations (yes a female ejaculation is possible). 130.56.89.88 ( talk) 22:11, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I think it may be time to archive the talk page as we have discussions going back to the early part of 2009. Better yet would be adding an appropriate archiving bot. Any thoughts before proceeding with a manual archive or adding the bot? --Surv1v4l1st ( Talk| Contribs) 17:34, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Why do we have two illustrations of a man ejaculating on a woman, and none of a man ejaculating on a man? Can't we rectify this? 98.238.188.211 ( talk) 19:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
You claim to attempt to represent the majority with these images, yet they both depict interracial couples. Why is that? -- 173.3.154.230 ( talk) 04:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
There are several problems with this section. First of all, it's pretty peripheral to the subject at hand and it's something of a "coatrack" to put it in here. If it's a notable phenomena it should maybe be spun off into its own short article.
Is it notable? Well, to start, this doesn't seem likely, given that semen is quite unlike any face lotion I've ever heard of. It's sticky and it dries into a film rather than than being absorbed by the skin. This doesn't prove anything, and you never know what other people like, but I think it would be reasonable to require an especially high burden of proof to overcome this common-sense objection. So let's look at the content and the refs.
It's a short section, three sentences. The last two sentences are about animal sperm, which we'll get to in a moment. The remaining sentence is:
The Gurley Brown statement isn't properly referenced; the article says its from an interview, but this Slate article indicates its from her book I'm Wild Again. Be that as it may, we can assume that she said it or wrote it. But Helen Gurley Brown is not an academic or researcher or qualified sociologist any kind of respected social analyst. She's a celebrity, a self-promoter, and the former editor of Cosmopolitan which is a popular magazine but not journalistically respected. The cover of the book in question is blurbed with the quotes "Hilarous!" and "Outrageous!" and the Slate article describes here as "...making the media rounds to flog her new memoir". The suspicion that she made this statement solely to gain notoriety and sell books has to be high. This is not a good ref for supporting that this is an actual practice.
The other refs are
So this is not a well-supported sentence and has to go.
The other two sentences of the section are:
While I'm sure that this is an interesting experience for the fish, it really doesn't have anything to do with the subject of this article, which is about jizzing on somebody's kisser, so I also deleted this material. Herostratus ( talk) 00:27, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Since it was never established that this is a real-life sexual activity (I'm not doubting that it is, only that it's not necessarily notable as such, and definitely not referenced with sufficient rigor), I rewrote the lead to indicate that this is a term of pornography, and moved the article from "Facial (sex act)" to "Facial (pornography)". Herostratus ( talk) 00:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
There are plenty of articles with maybe a not perfect page name (to some), but they have all been decided by consensus in the proper way. I would suggest that any intended page move should go through the requested move process, and allow all users seven days to come to a consensus (or not). Ronhjones (Talk) 21:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
OK, here is the current status: the lead sentence is "A facial is a term for the sexual activity in which a man ejaculates semen onto the face of one or more sexual partners", and there is a one reference for this. Let's look at the reference. It is page 194 of a 2006 book, Sex for Dummies by Ruth Westheimer and Pierre Lehu, published by Wiley. (Except its not published by Wiley. According to Amazon, it is published by an entity named " For Dummies", which is an arm of Wiley.)
OK, let's look at the authors. Ruth Westheimer is known as "Doctor Ruth"; she's neither a medical doctor nor a Ph.D., but she does have a master's from the New School and and Ed.D., and post-doctoral work in human sexuality at New York-Presbyterian Hospital under Helen Singer Kaplan, a distinguished sex expert. There's no indication that she's worked as a therapist, researcher, or professor. She is mainly known as a media personality - she's had a radio show, appeared on pop albums and as a spokesman in commercials for shampoos and cars and that sort of thing, but there's no indication of serious work beyond her post-doctoral studies, although she has written several popular books. She is famous. It looks like she's somewhat to the south of Joyce Brothers, who is at least a real doctor. (All info taken from her Wikipedia article.)
Pierre Lehu doesn't have an article and I can't find much on him. He appears as co-author on several of Westheimer's books and one surmises that he's Westheimer's ghoswriter.
The publisher, For Dummies, I don't know. They have a Wikipedia article which doesn't tell you much. They're not a publisher of academic or scholarly works. I don't know what their reputation is for rigorous fact-checking and editorial standards. But naming your publishing house "For Dummies" does not scream "serious academic or journalistic publisher". They were bought out in 2001 by John Wiley & Sons, which is a serious scholarly publisher. How much control Wiley exerts over For Dummies to bring the line up to scholarly standards I don't know. "Not much" would be my guess.
OK, so what (for whatever it may be worth) does the book say? It's on Google Books, but page 194 isn't available. It's not available through my library network (which is always one of the problems with citing low-quality sources). A search on the term "facial" in Google Books does show (besides some uses of the term which don't apply to this article, such as "facial hair" etc.) this snippet, which is indeed from page 194: "The porn industry has introduced a new facet to oral sex, the facial, where the man ejaculates onto his partner's face. In my opinion, this is humiliating..." and the snippet ends there.
OK.
As I said, I'm not saying that no one has ever done this outside of a porn movie. What I am saying that there is no data and no indication of notability.
This is a highly contentious question and we need to source this as well as a BLP or an article on Israeli-Palestinian issues or that sort of thing, so we need to stick to the letter of {{WP:V]] in this case. So per WP:V, what we would like to see is a scholarly work in a respected peer-reviewed journal, such as a survey or study indicating that that this is prevalent in X percent of the population or something. Failing that, material from respected mainstream media sources with a reputation for vetting facts and exercising strong editorial control, such as the New York Times or The Economist or whatever would probably be acceptable. Or perhaps a serious book from an respected publisher by an established expert who has hard data. And, per WP:V, not much else would be acceptable.
Instead, we get a book by a media personality from a publisher of books such as 15-Minute Workout For Dummies and Cake Decorating for Dummies and so forth. And even then, what do we have? Again with the porn industry: "The porn industry has introduced a new facet to oral sex...".
So this source is completely unacceptable, and consequently I've removed it and the passage it supports. And would you people please stop using sources like this. Herostratus ( talk) 16:22, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
We have already gone over this. It is in archive three. There is not a new consensus even though an IP choses to ignore it. So my reasoning (although it does not change the lack of consensus for removal) is that two images are neccassary to show it in two lights. 1 is derogatory and one is fun. Neither hits Florida laws and both add value and NPOV. Cptnono ( talk) 06:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
As a black male I find one of the images used for this article noticeably racist. The second image with the black man ejaculating on the white girl is the image in question. While I can understand the authors need to show NPOV, any sexual image with two partners showing one of the partners in discomfort/sadness should be same race to avoid any potential racism. Please someone change the image with the unhappy girl to have both partners as the same race or have them displaced in a non-race fashion (EX: stone figurines, portrait of just a woman's face with ejaculate on it) to remedy this potential contrasted racism. Also while not directly related I wish to point out this article could use a picture of a male giving another male a facial and/or a female squirting on a males face (if that would be relevant to the article) 130.49.142.155 ( talk) 15:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)phDalbert
I agree with Dalbert. I have modified the original image to only show the woman experiencing the facial with limited racial overtones. Keep up the good work everyone! 173.188.2.174 ( talk) 17:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Cptnono I don't think people find the interracial sex an issue. I feel that people find issue with the negative connotation that is directly tied to the dark skinned (presumably an individual of African decent) with the recipient of the facial having a unhappy face. This issue can be fixed by eliminating the man completely or as I think would be more constructive to change the photo to a gay or transgender type facial with the "pitcher" being female. It is somewhat redundant to have two facial (man to women). While they do display the NPOV well they lack diversity. I only wish I was a good enough artist to draw an image to replace the second one :/ 108.32.13.59 ( talk) 21:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
It looks like WP:CAPTION was disregarded with this edit. [2] Cptnono ( talk) 03:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
(←) To continue "What do you want your audience to notice in the image, and why?" Kenilworth Terrace ( talk) 22:15, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Unnecessary amount of pictures on this article. Currently the article shows two pictures that are basically the same. One should be deleted for fear of redundancy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.1.66.170 ( talk) 03:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
ha thanks for moving my comment. How do I comment correctly with a signature? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.1.66.170 ( talk) 03:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
In the "Cultural perceptions" section, the "In society" subsection begins "The frequency at which facials are performed amongst the general public is unknown...". And nothing in the section improves on this. There is some material which could be called "original research", except that it's not even research, it's just straight-out speculation. This section has absolutely nothing to say and needs to be removed.
There are three refs in the section (it looks like four, but two are to the same source). They are:
However, I don't think that this is a particularly useful or well-supported statement, so I removed the section in its entirety, Herostratus ( talk) 15:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
I disagree with the removal of prevalence information. Saying that not much is known, with a ref, is superior to saying nothing. By the way, Slade cites Cindy Patton for that info [3]; he doesn't posit it himself:
“ | Patton [...] notes also that heterosexual men rarely imitate the behavior they see in films in their own sexual lives, despite lots of anecdotal testimony to the contrary. "Clearly", says Patton, "few heterosexual men engage in this practice in real life." | ” |
You can read Patton's bio here I think she's sufficiently qualified that we can cite her opinion on this with attribution, lacking more substantial evidence. Tijfo098 ( talk) 13:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Also, User:Cptnono said below on this talk page that The Kinsey Institute new report on sex has something to say about this, but Google books won't let me see that page in my neck of the woods. Tijfo098 ( talk) 13:12, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
I gather from reading the discussion that most folks think there are duplicate images or offensive images etc., but the artist has a bias in having her pictures on the article. Despite continual feedback the only response is "make your own." I will say that replacing the images is not the only solution. Removing them entirely is an option. Just because an artist wants her pictures up does not mean they ought to be. I am suggesting that the images be removed if the community has suggested that but the artist is biased toward her own art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Interstate295revisited ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
Since reverting to combat vandalism has come up: I continue to support reverts to any edit that highlights race. [4] It is not necessary and has even been mocked by IPs on this talk page and racist terms ave been inserte dpreviousley (do I really need ot provide a diff). So to make sur everything is covered in my argument for the complete and understood validation of this comment: 1) we do not need to highlight race since it is not the subject 2) we do not need to highlight one race over another and anyone who does is obviously trolling 3) We all want to fight vandalism. Cptnono ( talk) 05:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Using the captions to the two images to describe the women as "black-haired" and "brown-haired" is just an enlightening as describing one of the women as "unsmiling". There is no rationale for such an asinine caption. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 05:59, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
I have noticed over the years that facials are a lot more common in pornography than they used to be. Anybody know why that is? Was hoping maybe this article would shed some light on the subject. I remember porn in the 80s would sometimes end in a facial if the woman was performing oral sex or giving the guy a hand job, but usually he would just pull out and shoot from whatever position they were in. Now days, it seems like almost every single scene ends in a facial (which I consider to be quite unfortunate), where the two performers have to do some crazy gymnastics to get in position before the guy ejaculates, or the scene just randomly switches to the guy jerking off in the woman's face for no apparent reason. Did we one day decide as a society that pretty much all porn should end this way, and I just missed the memo? Do people find this sort of thing to be more authentic? I've had sex with a lot of different women, and have never came on their face, nor have I ever wanted to. Guess I just don't understand the fascination, or how and why it became so popular in porn. 70.114.146.78 ( talk) 05:01, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I agree. The second picture should be removed. It is humiliating for females! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joanakestlar ( talk • contribs) 14:09, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Boy, we really did need those illustrations. I don't think anyone could have understood the article with not one, but two racist, offensive, and pointless images. -- 173.3.154.230 ( talk) 04:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
lmao they white dick cums on the girl and she's happy, they black dick cums on the girl and she's sad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meanstrade ( talk • contribs) 01:59, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
(moved to correct location) OK, this may seem childish or trivial, but if you look at the pictures, the one with the two white people shows the woman apparently enjoying herself, while in the case of the interracial couple, she clearly is distraught. I'm not one to nitpick edgy content, but in this case, that definitely looks racist. ProudlyAnon ( talk) 01:15, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Cptnono must have made the images, for no rational argument seems to persuade her that the community disagrees. We can't be married to every change we make, we must work as a group, and Cptnono seems to prefer showing off her art. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Interstate295revisited ( talk • contribs) 19:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the submissiveness of the photo could indicate that the woman might be willingly used as a bottom like in BDSM. --The Educated 13:45, 10 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brow276 ( talk • contribs)
Unnecessary amount of pictures on this article. Currently the article shows two pictures that are basically the same. One should be deleted for fear of redundancy. Either that or why not add 50 cartooned pictures of sexual facials? Just use one at the top please.
i came here from dramatica, i saw those pics there and was like "omg is that for realz", and am happy to see that yes, it is for real. thanks to artist(s), i had the lulz 91.204.237.181 ( talk) 11:16, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
I removed the second image as it serves no purpose. However, it was added back in with a comment saying that the "consensus" was to have two images for "balance". I cannot see that discussion or consensus anywhere here on the Talk page. I can only see that I am not the only one to believe that the second image serves no purpose as it is nearly identical to the first image (though it seems to illustrate a larger quantity of semen). I recommend the second image is removed, but am not going to get into pointless debates on here, nor bother removing the image again myself. I simply edit Wikipedia occasionally when I see mistaken or irrelevant content. I strongly believe in Wikipedia's potential as a useful online encyclopaedia. Having two images on this article seems pointless. Why did the artist even draw two near identical pictures in the first place? I have seen no other article on Wikipedia that uses two near-identical images like this. An image should uniquely illustrate one unique piece of information. That is done by the first image. Why is a second image necessary? - 12:25 17 June 2011 (GMT) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.2.181.72 ( talk)
I agree. Only one picture should be used. Otherwise it just makes the article smutty. I suggest using the one where both the penis and the girl appear happy as happy sex acts are less open to negative perspectives related to any potential racial undertones one may perceive (though i do not perceive any from either photo)
108.17.109.131 ( talk) 00:36, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
I deleted the lower picture of the facial with the unhappy girl. There seems to be consensus on too many pictures in this article after reading the discussion page in full. If anyone feels this was a rash decision please revert the image back into the article but post here why you think we need more descriptive images for this short article.
108.17.109.131 ( talk) 00:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
So, this single page manages to sum up most of what's wrong with Wikipedia. Let's take a look, shall we? The problem is the images (well, one of them, I don't even know where to begin with the rest of the page). There are two images here, each portraying the subject of the article. They are almost completely identical. Therefore, the logical assumption is that one of the images is completely redundant, and needs to be removed. Of course, it doesn't end there. It just so happens that the ONLY difference between the two images is 1. the race of one of the participants and 2. the reaction of the other. Basically, the difference is you make the male in one picture black, and suddenly the female has a terrified expression. Cool, so one of the images is racist. Could it be racist to interpret it that way? Well, no, because the ONLY difference is, again, the race of the male, which makes the reason for the change in reaction obvious. More importantly, is it okay to portray the subject in such a light that makes it seem non-consensual?
Obviously, as all the other entries on this talk page will attest to, that second image NEEDS TO BE DELETED. But for a second, lets forget the horrible connotations arisen from the combination of these images. Let's say that the second image was something that actually illustrated something or, at the very least, was identical. Or maybe the woman in the second picture has some sort of muscular disorder, and she's trying her damnedest to smile. Fair enough, but why two? Is wikipedia trying to become some sort of pornographic gallery? No, really, I looked. Just for fun, I checked out some of the other articles on human sexuality. Now, I'm asexual myself, and as a former defender of wikipedia, I'm certainly not going to come out and say images illustrating sexual acts are just out of line. Of course that's ridiculous, it's supposed to be an encyclopedia... right? But, looking at some of these other pages... I mean... wow. Do you really need 5 images for missionary position? Or three for hogtie? As a matter of fact, I've seen that model before. She's from an... australian? I think australian paysite that specializes in bdsm sort of stuff. There was a video she had on youtube but, near as I can remember, it got taken down. So, you're illustrating an article with three images, at least one from a professional porn site that youtube saw as explicit enough to take down just a sample?
By keeping the second image up, your article tells the world that not only is wikipedia racist, but their primary concern with articles on human sexuality is not to educate, but rather to post whole galleries of redundant images just to get off on. But it doesn't have to be like this, wikipedia, oh no. You COULD change. Every last smurfing comment on this talk page says the same thing with one loud unified voice: TAKE THE SECOND IMAGE DOWN. Someone grows some balls and really does delete it. What then? Do we rejoice? Has wikipedia reclaimed it's fast fading integrity? No. It is treated as VANDALISM and the change is reverted.
Lastly, I want to bring up a very important factor in how I even managed to find this train-wreck of an article. I was linked here from a COMEDY SITE. Ecyclopedia Dramatica has a hilarious animated gif that displays the none-to-subtle and outright vulgar display of racism that I thought, surely, not even wikipedia would sink to. So what if they still argue about birds being dinosaurs as if it were the 1920's or some nonsense. They certainly wouldn't display something so outlandish and horrible. The way it's presented in the article I linked, of course, plays it for laughs, because it's so obnoxiously blatant it couldn't possibly be true. Imagine my surprise when I followed THEIR link to find that, yes, the parody of wikipedia is simply THE EXACT SAME CONTENT AS THE SOURCE.
You have a choice, wikipedia. You can either delete the image and act like any of the more reputable wiki's I've seen, or you can remain the butt of a joke so offensive that you've slipped into some bizarre Sarah Palin territory where the parody and the original are the exact same thing.
Haha, no one's even going to read this. Cultistofvertigo ( talk) 02:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Total newcomer to this article, i'm quite sexually liberated etc. but I do think the pictures are a bit of a joke. I was quite surprised and amused to see them, but there is really no need, esp. not for the 2nd one. 2.103.41.112 ( talk) 02:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Why are these images still up? I see no evidence from the talk page that anyone aside from Cptnono supports this "consensus". We have only the repeated, abject denial that the second image might conceivably be viewed as racist and humiliating. Wikipedia is not censored, but
Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available.
Perhaps the first image is useful for people who have never heard of this act. But does anyone seriously argue that omission of the second image would make the article "less informative, relevant, or accurate"; i.e. that readers are unable to imagine a woman frowning and with more semen on her face having seen the first image? Perhaps we should add yet more "educational" images featuring surprised, frightened, and angry women as well. ( lws ( talk) 17:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC))
Any chance that we can have an image of a man being on the receiving end? Just trying to keep it gender equal =) SarahStierch ( talk) 18:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
There's this text at the top of the page:
Mind you, there's already an editnotice template placed on the article, so this text is redundant. But, really, "act of vandalism"? That's a bit over the top. Editors are entitled to make edits that they think in good faith will improve the Wikipedia per WP:BRD without being told in advance that this is "vandalism". Vandalism is pretty serious offense and we want to be careful slinging that term around.
In addition, "consensus has been reached" is probably not a good construction since consensus changes and isn't set in stone.
It's probably not a good idea for editors to remove the images without checking on the talk page first. It'd just be contentious and waste everyone's time. So "Please discuss any image changes on this article's discussion page before editing" is OK, although redundant with the editnotice. At any rate, either the entire passage should be deleted, or if not that then the first two sentences removed, or certainly at rate we shouldn't be preemptively accusing editors of vandalism. Herostratus ( talk) 06:42, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Should these two articles be merged? The Cum shot article is essentially the same as this one. Unless someone would like to expand either or both articles, I would recommend we merge them. Any thoughts? Who Is Christopher? ( talk) 19:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)