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Seems like some of the N-fixing material, esp discussion of the Betulaceae, Casuarinaceae, Coriariaceae, Datiscaceae, Elaeagnaceae, Myricaceae, Rhamnaceae and Rosaceae should move to the biological nitrogen fixation page; seems a bit out of place to discuss other plant families on the Fabaceae page.
Regarding the Legume page (its talk page redirects here), there seems to be duplication of material. Maybe there should be a disambig statment at the top, then the rest of the page about the legume 'pod' and seeds. Fabaceae should be reserved for information of the plants. Onco p53 11:37, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
_Nelumbium_ belongs in the Nymphaceae and _Nymphaea_ in the Nymphaeceae. Neither is anything like a legume as you have shown it. I did like your pictures. Celia Ehrlich Cehrlich@cyberportal.net
Hi, since you seem to be someone that likes correct taxonomy, do you think that the entry for the Fabaceace should be changed to the Leguminosae, and the sub-famalies to the Caesalpinioideae, Mimosoideae and Papilionoideae, since this is the taxonomy currrently accepted world-wide (consistent with the International Legume Database and Information Service at least)? -- nixie 06:27, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Legume taxonomy has undergone an overhaul, and you will find that the worldwide the Family is the Leguminosae (its still called the Fabaceae in the US, but this is not in line with current taxonomy). The current taxonomy database is held here [1]. I think that the entry should reflect the taxonomy used worldwide. -holmespeta@yahoo.com
RESULTS:
From Article 18 of the ICBN ( [2]) (my emphasis):
Both are valid and either can legitimately be used; but Leguminosae is only 'on sufferance' so as not to offend traditionalists. The trend in nomenclature is toward standardisation of names, both to the -aceae ending and to specification of the type genus, which means Fabaceae is likely to become the standard in the future. The main problem with the old names is that they can be confused with other ranks because of their endings (e.g. old family Cruciferae, old order Coniferae). - MPF 23:01, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That sort of variation has to do with changes in rank. When legumes are treated as a family, they can be called either Fabaceae or Leguminosae, and the subgroup containing Vicia is treated as the subfamily Faboideae or Papilionoideae. The common classification by Cronquist, however, treated them as the order Fabales. In that case the subgroup containing Vicia becomes the family Fabaceae or Papilionaceae, and the name Leguminosae disappears.
This is a common problem with using genus-derived names. However, all the more recent higher-level systems seem to prefer them. In particular APG, the current best-guess taxonomy, consistently uses Fabaceae. As such, I think we should use it for the sake of consistency, unless there is a very definite case that Leguminosae should be preferred. I know there isn't such a case for some of the other traditional names; e.g. the name Compositae, though still used, has been largely displaced by Asteraceae. Josh
The state of taxonomy is a sick joke and a shame on the biological sciences. This article shows that. Who has a clue what the first paragraphs mean? Pliny 21:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Every peanut pod that I have ever seen is split along a seam. What am I missing here?
I linked here from the page on nuts. I would consider myself an amateur botanist (lots of study, plenty of interest, but never took a class), so I don't know enough to see the difference: why are legumes not nuts? Are legumes different from the fruit of a plant, or are they a type of fruit (like a nut or a drupe)? FoiledAgain 20:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
This article is in dire need of a section on legumes vs nuts.
Rm999
Is there any good reason why this page entirely overlooks the woody legume species? The page gives the impression that legumes only exist as herbaceous plants. That excludes the numerous woody leguminous species, many with significant ecomomic value.
Is there a reason for this?
Actually I got redirected to this talk page from the legume page, which does strongly give the impression that all legumes are herbaceous. It even goes so far as to say that all farmed legumes are either herbaceous pasture species or grain crops. Of course that overlooks that a great many farmed legume species are trees and shrubs. (PS thanks for the help with the E. chlorostachys article. You're quick, I hadn't even finished creating it. Are there any usernames not taken? 00:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I think you are still missing my point. The article says that the only farmed legumes are either herbaceous pasture species or pulses. This is simply incorrect. Numerous legume species are farmed, not just for timber but for for dyes (eg Indigofera), as forage trees (eg Leucaena, Albizia), for blooms (eg Lupinus,) and numerous other uses. It's kind of hard to understand why all those other farmed legumes are being excluded. It certainly gives a strong impression that legumes are all herbaceous and states outright that all farmed legumes are herbaceous.
The statement "The International Code of Botanical Nomenclature allows the use of Leguminosae as an equivalent botanical name to this larger family," is simply wrong. The language of the code, cited above, allows the use of Leguminosae for Fabaceae, period, with no requirement of a specific circumscription. I have changed the wording accordingly.-- Curtis Clark 19:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Taking away the following text may look like a large deletion, but I actually believe this material is already covered in the rest of the article or can be covered by a small amount of text elsewhere. In particular, the 3 (sub)families are discussed in the Subfamilies section. I added a sentence near the top of the article emphasizing that fabaceae can have two meanings. I have added the mention of which way APG and Cronquist go in the subfamily section (although with reservations - I'm not really sure it is important to mention this here). I have added a mention of the relevant article of the ICBN to a See also section (again, with reservations, because people who care about names generally know where to look, or can find it elsewhere in wikipedia).
I am motivated by a desire to focus on what is agreed knowledge/classification about these plants, not on naming controversies/differences (I seem to have been successful at this in spermatophyte for example). Kingdon 17:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure this image belongs here. Would it be more useful in the article about Faboideae? I think we probably need a better description of the flower of a Faboidea, by the way. If somebody can make SVGs or wants to clear the background I can provide the photo without any description. Aelwyn 11:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The images here are just random. The first is clearly labelled as an accacia (wattle), which it is. Unsuprisingly that means it is MYRTACIE (sp, sorry) family. Obiously not fabacaea then. That's the very first one. Oh look, the second one is wrong too. Somebod needs to clean these up. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
128.250.5.252 (
talk)
03:37, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
This edit from 2007 introduced references to "Chapphill 1994; Tucker & Douglas 1004; Doyle 1983; Doyle & al. 1997" and "J. J. Doyle & al. 2000 and references; Bruneau & al. 2001". These references persisted until earlier today despite the fact that I don't see any full cite (then or now). I've gone ahead and replaced them with some papers by Wojciechowsk (and coauthors) which do supply the given facts, but thought I should let people know, in case anyone wants to track them down or finds it interesting that this situation persisted as long as it did. Kingdon ( talk) 13:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Judd (see ref list) gives a figure of 257400 angiosperm species. Using their figures for the top 5 legume genera we get 4800 species out of 18000 for the entire family, so 26.67%. The top 5 legume genera amount to 1.86% of all angiosperm species. All legume species amount to about 7% of flowering plant species. Plantsurfer ( talk) 09:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Judd estimate is now a bit out of date and probably a bit low. The plant list has 304419 accepted names and probably that will come up to 320000 or more once they finish working through the tricky names. But probably the 18000 number is also low. The plant list has 24,505, so I think all legume species are probably about 8% of angiosperms based on current evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.171.174.18 ( talk) 04:18, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Today, I went ahead and merged
Pulse (legume) into
Legume article, with intention to consolidate all the (fragmentary) information about agricultural importance of legumes into one article. It is still far cry from even a C-quality article, but it has to start somewhere.
Now, there is a significant content (and editing effort) overlap with this article, and I think it should be addressed. I think there are two ways to proceed:
I would prefer the second approach, which would mostly involve moving contents of
Fabaceae#Economic and cultural importance into
Legume, and shortening it here. ("#Industrial uses" subsection is particularly apt). To my knowledge, such splitting is a common (but not universal) practice for commercially important plants. However, it is kind of complicated here, because of wide scope of both articles.
Thoughts?
No such user (
talk)
11:05, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Fabaceae article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
To-do list for Fabaceae:
|
This article contains a translation of Fabaceae from es.wikipedia. |
Seems like some of the N-fixing material, esp discussion of the Betulaceae, Casuarinaceae, Coriariaceae, Datiscaceae, Elaeagnaceae, Myricaceae, Rhamnaceae and Rosaceae should move to the biological nitrogen fixation page; seems a bit out of place to discuss other plant families on the Fabaceae page.
Regarding the Legume page (its talk page redirects here), there seems to be duplication of material. Maybe there should be a disambig statment at the top, then the rest of the page about the legume 'pod' and seeds. Fabaceae should be reserved for information of the plants. Onco p53 11:37, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
_Nelumbium_ belongs in the Nymphaceae and _Nymphaea_ in the Nymphaeceae. Neither is anything like a legume as you have shown it. I did like your pictures. Celia Ehrlich Cehrlich@cyberportal.net
Hi, since you seem to be someone that likes correct taxonomy, do you think that the entry for the Fabaceace should be changed to the Leguminosae, and the sub-famalies to the Caesalpinioideae, Mimosoideae and Papilionoideae, since this is the taxonomy currrently accepted world-wide (consistent with the International Legume Database and Information Service at least)? -- nixie 06:27, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Legume taxonomy has undergone an overhaul, and you will find that the worldwide the Family is the Leguminosae (its still called the Fabaceae in the US, but this is not in line with current taxonomy). The current taxonomy database is held here [1]. I think that the entry should reflect the taxonomy used worldwide. -holmespeta@yahoo.com
RESULTS:
From Article 18 of the ICBN ( [2]) (my emphasis):
Both are valid and either can legitimately be used; but Leguminosae is only 'on sufferance' so as not to offend traditionalists. The trend in nomenclature is toward standardisation of names, both to the -aceae ending and to specification of the type genus, which means Fabaceae is likely to become the standard in the future. The main problem with the old names is that they can be confused with other ranks because of their endings (e.g. old family Cruciferae, old order Coniferae). - MPF 23:01, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That sort of variation has to do with changes in rank. When legumes are treated as a family, they can be called either Fabaceae or Leguminosae, and the subgroup containing Vicia is treated as the subfamily Faboideae or Papilionoideae. The common classification by Cronquist, however, treated them as the order Fabales. In that case the subgroup containing Vicia becomes the family Fabaceae or Papilionaceae, and the name Leguminosae disappears.
This is a common problem with using genus-derived names. However, all the more recent higher-level systems seem to prefer them. In particular APG, the current best-guess taxonomy, consistently uses Fabaceae. As such, I think we should use it for the sake of consistency, unless there is a very definite case that Leguminosae should be preferred. I know there isn't such a case for some of the other traditional names; e.g. the name Compositae, though still used, has been largely displaced by Asteraceae. Josh
The state of taxonomy is a sick joke and a shame on the biological sciences. This article shows that. Who has a clue what the first paragraphs mean? Pliny 21:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Every peanut pod that I have ever seen is split along a seam. What am I missing here?
I linked here from the page on nuts. I would consider myself an amateur botanist (lots of study, plenty of interest, but never took a class), so I don't know enough to see the difference: why are legumes not nuts? Are legumes different from the fruit of a plant, or are they a type of fruit (like a nut or a drupe)? FoiledAgain 20:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
This article is in dire need of a section on legumes vs nuts.
Rm999
Is there any good reason why this page entirely overlooks the woody legume species? The page gives the impression that legumes only exist as herbaceous plants. That excludes the numerous woody leguminous species, many with significant ecomomic value.
Is there a reason for this?
Actually I got redirected to this talk page from the legume page, which does strongly give the impression that all legumes are herbaceous. It even goes so far as to say that all farmed legumes are either herbaceous pasture species or grain crops. Of course that overlooks that a great many farmed legume species are trees and shrubs. (PS thanks for the help with the E. chlorostachys article. You're quick, I hadn't even finished creating it. Are there any usernames not taken? 00:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I think you are still missing my point. The article says that the only farmed legumes are either herbaceous pasture species or pulses. This is simply incorrect. Numerous legume species are farmed, not just for timber but for for dyes (eg Indigofera), as forage trees (eg Leucaena, Albizia), for blooms (eg Lupinus,) and numerous other uses. It's kind of hard to understand why all those other farmed legumes are being excluded. It certainly gives a strong impression that legumes are all herbaceous and states outright that all farmed legumes are herbaceous.
The statement "The International Code of Botanical Nomenclature allows the use of Leguminosae as an equivalent botanical name to this larger family," is simply wrong. The language of the code, cited above, allows the use of Leguminosae for Fabaceae, period, with no requirement of a specific circumscription. I have changed the wording accordingly.-- Curtis Clark 19:08, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Taking away the following text may look like a large deletion, but I actually believe this material is already covered in the rest of the article or can be covered by a small amount of text elsewhere. In particular, the 3 (sub)families are discussed in the Subfamilies section. I added a sentence near the top of the article emphasizing that fabaceae can have two meanings. I have added the mention of which way APG and Cronquist go in the subfamily section (although with reservations - I'm not really sure it is important to mention this here). I have added a mention of the relevant article of the ICBN to a See also section (again, with reservations, because people who care about names generally know where to look, or can find it elsewhere in wikipedia).
I am motivated by a desire to focus on what is agreed knowledge/classification about these plants, not on naming controversies/differences (I seem to have been successful at this in spermatophyte for example). Kingdon 17:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure this image belongs here. Would it be more useful in the article about Faboideae? I think we probably need a better description of the flower of a Faboidea, by the way. If somebody can make SVGs or wants to clear the background I can provide the photo without any description. Aelwyn 11:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The images here are just random. The first is clearly labelled as an accacia (wattle), which it is. Unsuprisingly that means it is MYRTACIE (sp, sorry) family. Obiously not fabacaea then. That's the very first one. Oh look, the second one is wrong too. Somebod needs to clean these up. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
128.250.5.252 (
talk)
03:37, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
This edit from 2007 introduced references to "Chapphill 1994; Tucker & Douglas 1004; Doyle 1983; Doyle & al. 1997" and "J. J. Doyle & al. 2000 and references; Bruneau & al. 2001". These references persisted until earlier today despite the fact that I don't see any full cite (then or now). I've gone ahead and replaced them with some papers by Wojciechowsk (and coauthors) which do supply the given facts, but thought I should let people know, in case anyone wants to track them down or finds it interesting that this situation persisted as long as it did. Kingdon ( talk) 13:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Judd (see ref list) gives a figure of 257400 angiosperm species. Using their figures for the top 5 legume genera we get 4800 species out of 18000 for the entire family, so 26.67%. The top 5 legume genera amount to 1.86% of all angiosperm species. All legume species amount to about 7% of flowering plant species. Plantsurfer ( talk) 09:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Judd estimate is now a bit out of date and probably a bit low. The plant list has 304419 accepted names and probably that will come up to 320000 or more once they finish working through the tricky names. But probably the 18000 number is also low. The plant list has 24,505, so I think all legume species are probably about 8% of angiosperms based on current evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.171.174.18 ( talk) 04:18, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Today, I went ahead and merged
Pulse (legume) into
Legume article, with intention to consolidate all the (fragmentary) information about agricultural importance of legumes into one article. It is still far cry from even a C-quality article, but it has to start somewhere.
Now, there is a significant content (and editing effort) overlap with this article, and I think it should be addressed. I think there are two ways to proceed:
I would prefer the second approach, which would mostly involve moving contents of
Fabaceae#Economic and cultural importance into
Legume, and shortening it here. ("#Industrial uses" subsection is particularly apt). To my knowledge, such splitting is a common (but not universal) practice for commercially important plants. However, it is kind of complicated here, because of wide scope of both articles.
Thoughts?
No such user (
talk)
11:05, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
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