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while the official F-22 webpage says that the weights are "Not releasable," there are many very reasonable weight estimates by reliable sources. would it be acceptable to add said estimates and note their source? mnemonic 12:21, 2004 Jul 6 (UTC)
The official web site of US Air Force says that empty weight of F-22 is 40,000-pound class (approximately 18,000 kilograms) and not 31,670 lb (14,365 kg) as claimed in wiki article.
Actualy this has just been tested using microwaves. I made a box thing and was confirmed that the substance is in fact epoxy and graphite. I put down two radios in a box with sheet lead on the outside and sheet lead between them. That way they can,t communicate. Then I made a box that I had equiped with the tech. I then turned one radio to scan and transmitted and nothing came in on the other. If you see any flaws in this test please tell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.214.23.189 ( talk • contribs)
The F-22A may make use of Active Cancellation stealth systems where Radar waves are returned slightly out of phase, thus cancelling them out. 69.248.224.18 01:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Who are "They"?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.244.246.25 ( talk • contribs)
The first few paragraphs of the development section and procurement section seem to overlap, maybe we should consolidate some of that information?
I've heard that US wants to sell some F22s to Israel. Is there any sources for this? Should we include this in the article? 217.219.164.6 13:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Al-Jazeera reported that Rumsfield promised Israel during its last war on Lebanon, august 2006, that the US will eventually sell it Raptors 22, and that the US would even secure soft loans for Israel to buy those.. Needless to say, Israel is famus for accuriing US technology and then selling to US foes or country's not on USA's export list (Twaiwan for example).
Hey I'm going to edit the F-22 picture on the main header table, this picture is of two Raptors from the 27th FS after it went operational.
I don't think there should be a comparable aircraft section at the bottom of the article. The reason for this is there is nothing comparable to the F-22 flying today anywhere in the world- it truly is unique- nothing comes close to the combat performance of the F-22.-- Indian50 23:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Comprable aircraft? Maybe not. Ones the F-22 has to take seriously...definantly. The F-22 is not a panacea, and it is not just the technology of an aircraft that determines victory in battle. The F-22 may indeed be the greatest advance in fighter technology since the jet engine, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing else out there capable of competing on its level. No one knows how something performs until it goes into battle. Keep in mind the Air Force originally did not want the A-10, and expected it to take massive lossess. They were wrong. Meanwhile in Vietnam they thought the F-4 Phantom II would be unstoppable, they were wrong.
As far as comprable The F-22 is not the same kind of aircraft as the other next generation fighter. Notice the trend toward delta wings and forward canards appearing on most next generation aircraft but not the F-22. This layout is very much to improve dogfighting ability. But the F-22 is not meant to be a dofighter, it is designed to slip in fire its missiles, and leave without being detected. Only dogfighting with AIM-9's when necessary.
Klauth 05:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Who was that remark directed at? 24.217.29.51 22:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Well guys... here's my (a little ironic, sorry, couldn't resist, because I'm an "old european") comment: "two fighter aircraft take of from their base, meet and fight each other" is no realistic scenario. Fighters never come without support of AWACS (radar planes), satellites, ships, and / or ground support.
Stealth design and coating is not like a Star-Trek cloaking device. There is weather radar around, which can even track small clouds (so it eventually can also track F22 exhaust, unless the F22 exhaust also is stealth exhaust - just kidding!), and passive radar systems, which can detect stealth aircraft by detecting the disorder in electromagnetical background radiation caused by cellular phone systems, radio, satellites (GPS, TV, communication), radar etc., which is caused by the fact that stealth planes refract/absorb radiation. Of cause this requires a coupled network of "passive radar" stations, but as the stations do not emit any radiation, you cannot spot them (just in case there are people around who'd like to say "then the F22 flies around and takes out all those passive radar stations which it's super-high-range missiles before without being spotted! Hah!").
There are satellites overseeing the planet which can spot heat dissipation in real time and photograph a newspaper in your front lawn... and it's not only the US which actually has systems like that.
So any technically capable nation in the world can very probably detect an F22 in it's own airspace unless you destroy the whole communication infrastructure of that nation and/or the whole planet first.
Once the F22 is detected, there are missiles which can track it optically and/or by it's heat signature, as an F22 neither is optically invisible nor flies without creating heat.
The soviets shot down a B2, the serbs shot down an F117A (with a russian missile), so I really don't think an F22 is invincible. It's both naive and supercilious to believe that.
You can compare any aircraft to any other if you define criteria and measures (like, for example, "which aircraft can crush more meters of reinforced concrete by crashing into it at top speed"). You can compare packages of aircraft/engines/radar/missiles etc. in defined situations.
But it doesn't lead anywhere, as 1) there always are upgrades available for anything, so a modified version of fighter plane X maybe superior to plane Y in situation Z, and 2), you may not be able to influence the scenario in which the fighter aircraft is needed if it happens to come up.
You may have recognized that the actual revision of the (probably initially assumed uncomparably superior by some) M1 Abrams is the M1A2 (upgraded twice), and the AH64 Apache already is built in it's fourth / fifth revision. Please answer the question: Why that?
The answer is: The other guys do not actually sleep or something, so if the F22 will ever become engaged in an actual battle against the air force of any competitor in aircraft design, I'd not bet too much on the F22's uncomparable superiority.
^ The soviets never shot down a B2. TwinTurboZ 04:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
^ I presume he mispoke and meant the Soviets shot down a U2. If the Soviets had shot down a B2, it would have been during WW3 which, as I'm still sitting here and alive, has not happened. MazNJ 08:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
So of course there are comparable aircrafts. -- 83.171.150.187 21:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The entire section (comparisons) looks like it's an add for lockheed or Boeing. I seems that the main "sources" to the section are one excercise and three quotes by three people of whom two can hardly be described as "Neutral" and the other is a 2004 quote by an air marshall speaking of the future. An air exercise in which aircrafts simulated other aircrafts in a simulated situation, simply says nothing about the F22 in comparison to other aircrafts.
Nobody here has any hardcore knowledge about how the aerodynamical properties of the F22 compares to other modern aircrafts. And hence the article shouldn't imply aerodynamical superiority, since the authors simply don't know. The same goes for the sensors, data processing cababilities and trust vectoring.
So for the sake of "objectivity" maybe "know-not"s should stop making comparisons that they do not have the necessary technical skill nor knowledge to make.
The F-22 foreign sales issue was settled today by Congress along with a multi year contract with Lockheed Martin.
I think someone should add this new development to the F-22 article, and perhaps the part about ANG F-15C's to the Eagle article.
Thanks
http://aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_defense_story.jsp?id=news/F2209176.xml
I have and will delete on sight any uncited comparison between this plane and others, for example:
Basing on maneuverability, F-22 is close to Mig-35, which has slighly higher 1.19 thrust/(loaded) weight ratio and more agile 2D-vectoring engines. However, aside of maneuverability, F-22 is more stealthy, can take twice as much of arming than Mig-35 and has supersonic cruise mode, which is more economic and helps against old types of missiles (that only lead by the heat of afterburners and thus may have less success rate in tracking F-22).
T/W is not the only benchmark of maneuverability and does not present a complete picture. Concluding anything about maneuverability from a single number is a gross WP:OR violation. Similarly, "more stealthy, twice as much armament, etc" are all uncited original research and do not belong in an encyclopedia. If you'd like to compare these aircraft, go write an essay or get a job at RAND. -- Mmx1 22:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm deleting that BBC commet because first and foremost it's bull and does not belong there. The F-22 has never ever gone up against a Eurofighter, and that comment about stealth aircraft not being able to maneuver is too general and unfounded, with respect to the F-22. I'll post a few Raptor video links if I find them.
I've read through the article and have found no "Weasel Words" at all, please stop making such accusations.
should the fact that australia was going to be buying the f-22 be added
-- Noshpit 00:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I am changing several F-22 specifications due to my calculations below.
The F-22 does not weight 40,000 lb empty it weights 31,670 lb. The 40K figure is an overestimate put out by the USAF on purpose to marginalize F-22 capabilities. The original Lockheed Martin goal was to have the YF-22 weight 30,000 lb, no they did not miss the mark by 10K.
Sources http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Stu/muddin/F-22.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-specs.htm http://www.airtoaircombat.com/detail.asp?id=9
Next, the F-22 does not carry 25,000 lb of internal fuel, again that's just an estimate, the ture figure is 20,650 lb according to an official USAF safety DOC ( Technical Order 00-105E-9) See page 15. The Link is below.
http://www.0x4d.net/files/AF1/R11%20Segment%2012.pdf
Total fuel minus the four external fuel tanks is 20,650 lb.
The F-22 carries the M61A2 gun with 480 20mm rounds for its cannon, the entire system weights 648 pounds. The gun weight 202 lb, feed mechanism weights 176 lb and the ammunition weights 270 lb. The gun and feed mechanism are included in all aircraft produced so they are already part of the empty weight figure, only the ammunition is added on later.
(My Opinion - They need to add more ammo for that gun - The air force always pays dearly when undestimating the dogfighting role - and this thing costs way too much for such mistakes.)
Source http://www.gdatp.com/Products/PDFs/F-22A.pdf
A normal pilot (average weight 180 lb) and all his flight support systems will weight a total of around 250 lb.
The AIM-120C weighs 356 lb, the F-22A carries six internally, so 6 x 356 lb equals 2,136 lb.
http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/rms/documents/content/cms01_054563.pdf
The AIM-9X weights 188 lb, the F-22A carries two internally, so 2 x 188 equals 376 lb.
http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms01_054518.pdf
Now we can truly know the takeoff weight of the F-22A Raptor with a standard air to air load out.
31,670 lb + 20,650 lb , + 270 lb, + 250 lb, + 2,136 lb, + 376 lb = 55,352 lb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.158.30.36 ( talk • contribs)
Does anyone mind if I add an internal fuel category in the specifications area?
Someone here obviously has an issue with the F-22. That Comparisons Section describes the F-22 as "The World's Most Effective Fighter" some people have a problem with that statement. Need I remind everyone that it is simply an opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. If you don't like the F-22, then don't read this article. -- RaptorR3d.
- Anyone who has a problem with that statement is either being "neutral" for the sake of it or they have their head stuck in in the sand, in either case I recommend this article for ALL.
F-22 Dominates
- I'm fine with that, For I also support the F-22. -- RaptorR3d.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2006/articles/jul_06/alaska/index.html
- Very well then; let's just leave it as that and it should settle this debate. -- RaptorR3d.
I made a few minor changes to the article; I hope nobody minds. Anyhow, I believe it needs some severe restructuring. Mainly, I believe that the outline of the various sections probably needs to be rethought. Does anyone have any ideas? — Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 20:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone think of a way that we could utilize this image from this page? It's obviously a Lockheed image. I'd like to find a way to use it under {{ fair use}} or {{ promotional}}. What does everyone think? It's certainly more appropriate than this image which is currently in use (but is better than nothing.) — Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 06:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Somebody heared somerhing about it && —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.168.163.233 ( talk) 11:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
This page might have the potential for a GA rating on the quality scale. It has seen improvements so in my opinion, it could be put up one level. -- 24.6.160.190
The Stealth section is elliptical at best. It features vague examples of what the F-22 isn't, followed by negative assertions about other stealth aircraft without reference or support. Bias is evident throughout - "plagued by deployment problems..." would be improved by "maintenance heavy". There is no actual information about the stealth of the aircraft, or how the F-22 responds to issues raised about the B-2 or F-117. The entire section is taken from an aviation fan-zine, and struggles from lack of any real meat in the source material. I say this section should be scrapped until actual non-classified content about the stealth of this aircraft is referenced. Comparisons of the stealth capability and design approach to other stealth- and non-stealth aircraft would be welcome. As the F-22 is a "low-observable" stealth fighter aircraft, I would think that this is a section of high importance, and the abysmal dearth of content here limits the quality of the whole article severely. -- Metaxis 23:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I deleted specific RCS claims from the article because no source was provided. If somebody can provided a sourced estimate for the RCS, that would be kind of good...-- Robert Merkel 03:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Being deployed to Okinawa... Worthy of mention? Dunno. -- MyrddinEmrys 05:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/02/14/212102/pictures-navigational-software-glitch-forces-lockheed-martin-f-22-raptors-back-to-hawaii.html http://english.people.com.cn/200702/18/eng20070218_350967.html slashdot story http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/02/11/us_delays_f_22_raptor_fighters_arrival_in_japan/ Gadgetgeez
I added a source that indicated multiple computer failures coincident with crossing the international date line. -- Duk 18:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Does the F-22 have any video camera electronics in its underside? -- 24.249.108.133 16:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
All this stuff about war game stats is kinda dumb considering kills in these games are solely acheivable by gaining radar locks. Of course you will get zero radar locks on a stealth plane, however theoretically they could still be killed by enemy fighters lucky shots. I'm just saying it's just basically a pointless stat. It might as well just say current radar systems equiped on US planes are unable to lock onto the F22. - Arch NME 10:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Seing as the F-35 isn't in the same class of plane as the F-22, but is derived from it, I suggest moving the F-35 from Comparable Aircraft to Related development.
Have there been, or are their any publicly scheduled flight demonstrations of the F-22? I think the answer to the question would be relevant to the article. If my memory serves, it was a really big deal when the MiG-29 made its first western appearance in the Paris Airshow. Plus it'd be really cool to be, or have been at an f-22 demonstration. RMelon 14:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I'd like to put forward my own website as an external link for the F-22 Raptor page. I won't add the link myself, as that is considered spamming. Please have a look, we feature active discussions and a ton of photos of the F-22 Raptor.
http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index.php/topic,292.0.html
Cheers, Roger —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rhino Roger ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC).
There are plagarized passages in this article taken from at least three sources. I will be removing them once I have looked up the exact locations to support the fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Klauth ( talk • contribs)
One of the passages discussing the aircraft's speed I recognize from the handbook of the computer game "Total Air War" as I said when I can list specific page numbers and books I will list them, then remove the plagarized pieces. Another I recognize from a Jane's Book, etc. Just give me a day or two to dig the books out of their boxes.
According to LTC "Dozer" (Raptor Driver) the F-22's combat loaded weight is around ~64-65K, considering we know all of the other weight variables (as listed previously on this page)that means that the empty weight is roughly ~40K. Also, the same source said that he has sustained more than 9G's in the F-22 while maneuvering (9.5). Furthermore in the Langley 2007 air show the announcer commented that the F-119 produced 37K of thrust (most sources however think the real maximum 39K. I'm making these changes to the official specifications list.
Sources - Fence Check Langley Show - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAp5EVjucEs —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.197.204.65 ( talk) 03:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
What good are "published" sources when the people who fly the aircraft for a living are telling you otherwise? Considering journalistic ethics are nothing to look up at I'd go with a pilots word any day. Anyway, Is this too considered hearsay from a pilot?...
"Moga noted that he recently pulled 10.2 Gs in the F-22, performing a pullout from a hard turn. The F-22’s specifications say only that the aircraft can pull 9.5 Gs, but can take more, depending on “the ability of the pilot” to bear the pressure. Still, technicians checked the fighter for signs of strain but found none." http://dailyreport.afa.org/AFA/Features/newtech/box051807demo.htm
I don't see the need for an account, anyway if 10.2G or 9G for example is not the structural limit of the AC in question (and it's not), nor the limit of pilot, then what is the point of putting down -3 to 9G in the specifications?. Might as well write "classified" or put 9.5+... Or are there no "published" sources reporting such... Also might I remind you that the Raptors FCS places no limit on how many G's can be performed, neither are there speed limitations, that function is left up to the pilot. The Navy however does place a self imposed limit of 7.5G to reduce airframe stress, however even that can be overridden by the pilot in order to make use of the full performance envelope available (if need be).
As for pilots themselves, not all talk for the sake of it, and it is important to distinguish BS from a late night at the O Club from actual first hand accounts and information. To disregard all information from such an invaluable source is, quite frankly, foolish.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.239.76 ( talk • contribs)
That pilot has probably never seen a Typhoon in person let along fly DACT with it to know such details, probably drives Hercs for a living, again distinguish.
Anyway, you're right, Wiki is not the place for me, I know that most of the specifications given are not even in the ballpark let alone accurate. I just find it odd that say someone involved with the F-22 program could not edit something unless it was "published" somewhere, even thought the published information used now is clearly incorrect....
This section needs to be pared. The fact that the F-22 is being considered by other nations is fine to mention but look at the detail here especially in the passage on Australia. Comments? Bzuk 12:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC).
I replaced "Apple Macintosh" with "personal computer" since IEEE 1394 is common on many different computers; it's not unique to Macs. In fact, most computers with IEEE 1394 are IBM-compatible computers and not Apples. I see no reason to showcase one particular brand of computer when the technology is common on many different computers now. It's also misleading, since it leads the reader to believe that the only computers that have the technology are Macs. Whoever keeps reverting the article to read "Apple Macintosh" is simply being an advocate for Macs. TwinTurboZ 17:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Not my changes, but weren't Apple the first to introduce IEEE 1394 (as 'Firewire') and wasn't it a Mac innovation? Common now, it used to be associated principally with the Mac platform.
I propose a clear rule for the chapter “Comparable aircraft” in order to avoid all the nationalis fervor like “F-22 is in a league of it's own” or frustrations like “Why my favorite plane (Typhoon/Rafale) is not included even if it rates almost the same and cost 5 times less”. The comparables planes should the ones that (1) are produced/developed in the same time and (2) have at least some characteristics that are relatively comparable. While some planes are without discussion superior in some scenarios better than the direct competition they may find in a realistic battlefield ether as opponents or allies. More they are regularly compared by governments for acquisitions and in this case the winner is not necessarily decided by quality but also price, availability, easy to maintain, political pressure, corruption.... More it is useless to send an expensive F22 to police the sky of Somalia, a Mig 21 will do the job. BdB 134.157.93.124 14:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks BillCj for the answer. Well the peoples should use also common sense, otherwise a hot air baloon is able to reach higher altitudes and a zeppelin has a bigger range than F22. The problems is that users think that Wiki is for funs to express their desires and not to give an information as realiably and neutral as possible. BdB-18 16:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The 3D view pic in the "specifications" section is that of the prototype, YF-22. Since that pic is png, captions can't be added. Shouldn't we get a 3D view of the F-22?
I remember that discovery channel showed a 2 hr episode about yf22 vs yf23.I dont know te link,can you help me. manchurian candidate 08:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
What does that 73 number represent? The Number of combat ready F-22's delivered to the USAF or the number of AC in current squadron use? I ask because I know for a fact (and can prove) that Raptor's number 087 and 088 (90th FS Alaska) have been delivered to the AF. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.158.54.112 ( talk • contribs)
Yeah I know that the data is from Link 1 however all I'm saying is that it's incorrect (or at least not up to date). Since September of 2006 the USAF has begun receiving AC for the 90th FS, and as I said before Raptor's 87 and 88 have been delivered. That means the USAF is in possession of at least 88 Raptors... (Raptor 088 is marked with the tail sign AK 90th FS)
See for yourself... (these pictures were not meant to be released to the public by the way...)
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4070/ak5rp8.jpg http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7310/10720862qo7.jpg
The article says "its climb rate is faster than the F-15 Eagle due to advances in engine technology, despite the F-15's thrust-to-weight ratio of about 1.2:1, with the F-22 having a ratio closer to 1:1"
This doesn't sound right. If it's able to climb faster, that means that it either has a better thrust/weight ratio or the aircraft is just more aerodynamic. The fact that the max engine thrust is classified but we know that it climbs faster than the F-15 suggests that it may have more thrust than commonly believed, making the actual thrust/weight ratio better than the F-15's. TwinTurboZ 05:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
For an aircraft as significant as the F-22 Raptor, there should be some textual (book) references available. All I see are websites which are not exactly vetted for accuracy at times and can hardly been considered authoritative compared to major references. IMHO Bzuk.
Does the Raptor use fibre optics for its bus? Found no mention of this in the text. Bumper12 01:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
This article deperately needs editing by someone who isn't a 17 year fanboy and who has a basic grasp of physics - stealth does not mean "no detection by radar" but "reduced detection range, based on the fourth root of the radar signature". There's no discussion of the criticism of the plane by Ricconi and Sprey (eg poor fuel factor, massive visual signature) or of the criticism of the aircraft for not having a BVR weapon system equivalent to the Meteor. A key claim - that missile bays are only open for a second while launching an air to air missile - is made without a source or comprehension of its significance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.90.70 ( talk • contribs)
BillCJ, whether you do or don't like 2003's Hulk, the F-22 is the main focus of multiple action scenes in that movie - one which happens to be a notable Hollywood film - and as such, unless there was a film in which it appeared earlier, Hulk is the F-22's debut in a Hollywood film. How that is "cruft" is beyond me.
BillCJ, whether you do or don't like 2003's Hulk, the F-22 is the main focus of multiple action scenes in that movie - one which happens to be a notable Hollywood film - and as such, unless there was a film in which it appeared earlier, Hulk is the F-22's debut in a Hollywood film. How that is "cruft" is beyond me.
After being in place for a lengthy period of time, the following entry was recently removed: "The F-22 has been featured in numerous books, such as Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor (1994) and Clive Cussler's Dark Watch (2005). In doing a brief google search, 910 matches were made on Tom Clancy and F-22 and 558 matches of Clive Cussler and F-22. Here are specific references: Information Warfare and Deterrence Appendix C. Fundamentals of Information Warfare: An Airman's View and Dark Watch book review . I will replace this item with references in the near future. FWIW Bzuk 20:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC).
your missing the point, transformers is not the first or only pop culture refrence, putting it in there by itself is just silly HINSON1 05:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I updated the unit cost in the Infobox. This is from FY 2008/2009 Budget Estimates, which lists $157.7 million on page 1-13 (pg. 51 in file). See if I missed something. I expected the numbers to be closer to last year's $120M. - Fnlayson 17:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
...........................Thats BS, most of the F-22 (92) was bought at a price of 168M - you have found the lowest pricetag you could on that page an its for 20 planes only - do average cost and you get around 165. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.29.162 ( talk) 13:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Bill CJ You "Reverted unsourced, good-faith additions by 90.240.101.73" on the F-22, on the basis that they were not from a verifiable source. You reverted to a form of words that was plainly, demonstrably wrong, which is witless - even if there was a verifiable source, and you reverted to something that gave a false, misleading impression.
The points at issue were connected with the F-22's capability in the SEAD, EW and AWACS roles.
Because of its sensor capabilities, F-22 does have POTENTIAL in these roles, but this potential is limited by the aircraft's inability to transmit any sensor data to other platforms, except by voice radio. The Raptor pilot can therefore report by radio, but this falls far short of a genuine AWACS or ISTAR capability.
The existing IFDL (Intra Flight Data Link) is limited to communicating with other Raptors, and its Link 16 capability is austere (text messages only) and Receive Only.
This was confirmed by Larry Lawson, the F-22 Programme Manager in his presentation at the Paris Air Show, and was reported in Flight Daily News. It was also confirmed by Colonel Sutter, Chief of ACC/A8F, 5th Generation Fighter Division, and can be inferred from the Air Force Link article at http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123024639
In answer to the question: Is it true that the F-22 intraflight datalink cannot communicate with other tactical platforms, AWACS, Rivet Joint JSTARS, etc? (…..thereby limiting F-22 pilots to voice radio?) Is an F-22 pilot limited to voice radio?
Sutter answered: Currently, F-22s link with each other but do not link with other platforms except thru voice radio.
Nor is the F-22's APG-77 being given a high bandwidth transmission capability. This was explicitely denied by Lawson, though it remains an unfunded future option, alongside Link 16 TX/RX, and TTNT. 90.240.101.73 13:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Why did this aircraft take 20 years to enter operational service? That's kind of bizarre for any aircraft type. The basic design dates to the late 1980s. I wonder if there are technology obsolecence issues that might come into play. - Rolypolyman 02:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
you must have missed the article about the wi-fi which would cost 10,000 a month if it was comcast...theres nothing even approaching it commercially available- HINSON1 05:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
20 years of totality. The idea, the competition for the contract, took place mid-80s, but the plane's been in developement for 10-15 years, not 20. Still pretty long, but look at the result. The Walkin Dude 15:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The F-22 Jet is featured on the Command & Conquer Generals PC game as the American Raptor Jet, the main air unit for the American side. Should this be added to the popular culture section? Matty B 1000 16:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I saw at least 2 F-22 in an airshow over Toronto, Canada today. So is this the first airshow their featured in outside of the United States. Friday August 31st, 2007. 1:05 PM EST.
There has been a user spamming info in F-22 videos, such as this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=fBUmRd4hKlg and used a source that a Eurofighter beat an F-22 in a mock digfight. I've actually heard rumors about this happening long before:
"The Eurofighter have already beaten the F22 - take this source:
"international AIR POWER REVIEW" - year 2006, issue 20, page 45. - ISNB: 1-880588-91-9 (casebound) or ISBN: 1473-9917.
"Two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake. There was little suprise that the Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight.."
He has also been spreading around info, using the US Congress GOA report as a source, saying that the F-22 is severely flawed and has even made a video into it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvgBbXKL5E
Now I'm wondering, how much of this stuff is actually true? Tsurugi 10:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
He was getting quotes from several other GAO reports from different years as well. Tsurugi 11:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The report that the guy was drawing much of his information from was primarily in this more recent March 2007 GAO report. type in "88" to go that F-22 page. What about the info in there? Have any of those issues in that report been resolved yet, such as the "mean time between maintenance" issue? I know the SRP isn't done. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07406sp.pdf Tsurugi 16:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
In your POV, Askari Mark, what do you think about the statements the user named Zeptocomp is saying about the F-22 on this forum? (his comments are in yellow) http://youtube.com/watch?v=vIvgBbXKL5E Is he making a good argument? Also, here is a site with another bunch of articles that claim supposed Eurofighter > F-22 dogfights that he cites from. The quotes are in the gray boxes [2]. In addition, what exactly is "mean time between maintainance"? I need some understanding about that. It can't be the amount of time where a plane can fly and has to land for maintainance (like the user is saying). Tsurugi 20:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh okay. Now i understand. What about my other questions? Tsurugi 21:20, 5 September 2007 (PT)
Well, compare this discussion to the sentence ... The US Air Force claims that the F-22A cannot be matched by any known or projected fighter aircraft... , a claim without solid foundation and surely carrying a load of bias - right in the introduction as a crucial part of the article. Bitching about the source for the GAO-story and not including it in the proper context, maybe with a critical remark, seems like applying a double standard here. But as you may have noticed, every version of wikipedia has it's very own shortcomings, and this one's the desire to portray the US' holy grails as bright as possible, being less critical and more selective. Would the GAO-report support the "F22's superiority", it would be in the article, it's really as easy as that. 88.65.252.208 13:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
ADDING EUROFIGHTER DOGFIGHT TO PERFORMANCE I have added the Eurofighter Dogfight to performance... I then saw the discussions here. I don't agree with removing this reference (and I am not the guy you claimed to be responsible for the Utube and spams). The eurofighter engagement happened, it is a very reliable source and well documented. If these comparisons wouldn't have been fair, the USAF would have hardly agreed to send their F-22. So citing theoretical arguments to remove a real world engagement backed up with sources is not appropriate. Especially since you claim to not know the Eurofighter. At the end lets list the engagements that took place in real world and leave the speculations and simulations and your paper calculations on the side. Also before removing this source, please get the source in question, read it yourself first.
Also in regards to removing the other sources (a 2007 source even) just because you think it's not reliable or warranted is wrong. Honestly I think a 1999 or 2007 congressional report is a pretty reliable assessment and whether it still applies or not is irrelevant since the source contains the date and the user knows that is is older if he can see the date.
If you have a later source you can claim that the issues have been fixed and add the later source. However just reading this discussion and the deliberate removal of anything that sounds remotely negative seems wrong to me - it almost would want me to use the latest wiki-changes tracking tools to see where/what computer your edits are coming from... that might add some more information to this discussion or even topic.
Then my other request is to REMOVE the following quote: "Marshal Angus Houston, chief of the Australian Defence Force, and former head of the Royal Australian Air Force, said in 2004 that the "F-22 will be the most outstanding fighter plane ever built"" The reason being that the quote is a pretty stupid thing to say and reflects more the Marshal rather then saying anything about the plane. First recent engagements show that this statement is simply not true. Second to use "EVER" in his statement is simply a dumb thing to say. I am sure there will be hundreds of fighter planes in the coming 1,000 years that will be much more outstanding then the F-22 - in fact I can think of a large number of planes in the previous century that were A WHOLE LOT more outstanding and revolutionary. Just because someone said something doesn't mean it should be included if what they say is just marketing talk.
Although real-life has kept me off-wiki for the last couple of weeks, I have been trying to see what I could uncover about the incident alleged to have happened by the IAPR. So far I have found not the slightest confirmation that the event ever occurred and many reasons to disbelieve the report altogether.
The article as a whole is essentially an unapologetic puff piece on the Typhoon; that doesn’t mean anything written in it is automatically untrue, but it does caution any reader to beware of possible bias in anything uncited – and nothing regarding the Typhoon vs. F-22 incident is sourced, either internally or by footnote. The entirety of what was written about the story is a single paragraph:
The F-15 engagement reported is reliably attested to by multiple reliable sources, so it is not at issue. (However, as the Scotsman makes a little clearer, the fighters involved were F-15E Strike Eagles, not the F-15C air superiority version, and it would have been shameful for the Typhoon to have been bested by these heavier, less-maneuverable birds.) In fact, one has to wonder if the Typhoon vs. F-22 report isn’t a garbled version of this event.
For this latter, the IAPR article mentions uncited “repeated reports” (which I’ve been so far unable to find online), but then goes on to refer to only the forum website report. (Perhaps the “repeated reports” were multiple acquaintances telling him about the website post?) The author seems to have only secondhand information on the forum – which goes unnamed (just like the “senior RAF officer”). While he mentions that it is “frequented by front-line RAF aircrew”, the original forum post appears to not have been made by someone in the RAF nor a witness to the alleged events – otherwise he would have said so to gain greater credibility. Furthermore, RAF professionals or in-place witnesses would not make the mistake of claiming that the F-22 flew against the Typhoon at NAS China Lake. That’s a US Navy facility, and the US Air Force has its own equivalent facilities. (Both do offer these facilities to the air forces of allied nations for testing that can’t be duplicated in-country at reasonable expense.)
Of the knowledgeable people I’ve spoken to, few had ever heard of this allegation and all were all but sure that the F-22 has not (yet) been to China Lake nor has it been flown in mock engagements against the Typhoon specifically or against any aircraft flown by non-US personnel. Of course, one can never prove with 100% certainty that such an event occurred and was highly classified – given how security rules go regarding stealth technology – but it seems unlikely. In fact, it reads more like “something made up on the Internet one day.” As it stands, all we have is a report of a rumor on a web forum about a rumor from an unknown source posted by someone without first-hand knowledge or professional experience. Until there is evidence based on what Wikipedia considers to be reliable sources, there seems to be no reason to include the alleged incident at all. Askari Mark (Talk) 20:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok me again.. well parsecboy see that's what I don't get. Why do you ASSUME that THE SOURCE had no SOURCES (because they don't list it? You simply don't know it). I think if you have A SOURCE - a very respectable one, its ok to quote them unless you have PROOF that they lied - until you can bring that proof, or tell us all why YOUR clout or knowledge or experience should count MORE then a specialty print magazine subscribed to by all major airforces in the world, I suggest you just stop with your biased focus. It ruins wikipedia for all of us. Your arguments don't make sense, they are not logical and an insult to all of us. You say that the FORUM mentioned doesn't count - WHY - because you say so???? I think a professional aviation publication subscribed to by all major AF in the world is a valid source period - and if you think the source lied then bring proof.. until then the source is valid - period. Sirbidmaster 18:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.190.6 ( talk) 22:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I am still concerned by the bias that is being adopted here. The claim at the beginning of the article is pure "marketing" and has no place on wikipedia, the fact that it is left there shows my earlier assumption of a pr war. I'll remove it to protest it. The claim that "cannot be matched by any known or projected fighter" is simply marketing BS and not worthy wikipedia.... ITS MARKETING period - and any discussion about it is useless and just shows bias. Let's face it guys. The Typhoons raped the Raptors at NAS china lake and there are tons of people working on hiding that fact. Let's all dig a bit deeper, so far there are MORE THEN ENOUGH proof/sources that all point into the same direction. Typhoon's were at china lake at the same time as raptors, exercice name etc. etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.190.6 ( talk) 17:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The F-22 Raptor flown by an international landmark--the CN Tower--during its first public demonstration outside of the United States on the long weekend of September 1-3, 2007. This is undeniable an historic event. The event was captured on the picture (right). Some wikipedia contributors insist in removing the picture from the main article, their objection being that the picture is low quality. Truly, this is why this picture is published under the "Trade Show" heading: it is meant to be a record of a life event, not a glossy sales brochure. The article shows plenty of other quality pictures of the aircraft. If someone has a better quality picture to illustrate the subject event, be my guest and replace it. Until then, this picture may be the best available to illustrate that historic event.
Before someone just single-mindedly reject someone else's contribution, at least first take a breather, write up your thoughts in this "talk" section, then let's see toghether what is best for this publication.-- JLdesAlpins 23:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
This article currently reads: In 2007, tests carried out by Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, and L-3 Communications enabled the AESA system of a Raptor to act like a WiFi access point, able to transmit data at 548 Megabit/sec and receive at Gigabit speed, far faster than the current Link 16 system used by US and allied aircraft, which transfers data at just over 1 Megabit/sec. However, the Link 16 page claims a data rate of 31.6kbits to 115.2kbits/sec, about a tenth of that. The higher rate comes unsourced from an article at The Register, which is generally slightly less accurate than reading sheep entrails. Anyone have a good source for the data rate of Link 16? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaleja ( talk • contribs) 18:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Who wrote the propaganda piece on the F-22 Raptor, this sound more like an F-22 fanpage than anything else. This page should be marked as propaganda page, it has a clear bias.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Financialmodel ( talk • contribs)
Someone is rying to make the jumper statement support a biased view that the f-22 is better than te typhoon, by saying they are desiged for "difference performence", while he deleted another statement by juumper that they run "neck on neck". - this article needs to be marked as biased, correct the quotes, or simply delete te biased comparison quotes taken out of context. -- Financialmodel 18:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
"The F/A-22 Raptor has stealth and supercruise," he said. "It has the ability to penetrate virtually undetected because of (those) capabilities. It is designed to be a penetrating airplane. It can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is."
This is an encyclopedic article. Disrespectful posts will not be tolerated. This article is not meant to show which fighter jet is better, or which continent is better. This page will not turn into a Typhoon comparison page. It is only appropriate to include information about each jet. Readers of this resource are the ones to decide what to think. Anyone adding content to this talk page must sign his or her post by typing four (4) tildes after added content. Nicholas SL Smith 23:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree there may be a bias to this article. I always attempt to think outside the box, even if it means a little bit to not believe in my religion possibly, but many opinions were given in this article. Perhaps some facts, but I would in the future like to see someone who has pictures of them actually going to these test sites and saying they have seen the actual results, and to be honest, I wouldn't want this to be like the olympics, and I would actually prefer unbribed judges of many countries, even if it means communists. - No offense to any judges of the olympics. CutNut 05:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Flight International (a respected publication) consistently cites the unit price as $200 million. And more recently than the USAF reference in this article's infobox. e.g.
Any thoughts? Mark83 23:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
is the united states planing to seel any of those fighter jets i n the future to nato or allied countries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Topsecrete ( talk • contribs) 18:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone verify the source of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MFpart ( talk • contribs) 20:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The exercise was focused on training the youngest and newest F-22 pilots, according to Bergeson. Nearly one-third of the pilots involved in the F-22's portion of the exercise had less than 50 flight hours on the aircraft. The "red" force of aggressors consisted of various F-15s and F-16s that were able to regenerate upon sustaining damage; thus they were able to constantly flow into and out of the fight, maintaining a rigorous operational tempo.
The friendly "blue" force lost one F-22 during the exercise, Bergeson says. He attributes the loss to a confusing "mulligan," whereby an enemy "red" fighter regenerated or re-entered the fight unbeknownst to the blue forces. "We made some tactical mistakes and one slipped through," Bergeson told reporters Feb. 27 during a telecom from Langley Air Force Base, Va., upon returning from the deployment. Apparently, the F-22 pilot did not realize the aggressor was not out of the fight and should have continued to attack the aircraft.
Bomb test flameout nearly crashes F-22-- 90.186.140.193 07:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
while the official F-22 webpage says that the weights are "Not releasable," there are many very reasonable weight estimates by reliable sources. would it be acceptable to add said estimates and note their source? mnemonic 12:21, 2004 Jul 6 (UTC)
The official web site of US Air Force says that empty weight of F-22 is 40,000-pound class (approximately 18,000 kilograms) and not 31,670 lb (14,365 kg) as claimed in wiki article.
Actualy this has just been tested using microwaves. I made a box thing and was confirmed that the substance is in fact epoxy and graphite. I put down two radios in a box with sheet lead on the outside and sheet lead between them. That way they can,t communicate. Then I made a box that I had equiped with the tech. I then turned one radio to scan and transmitted and nothing came in on the other. If you see any flaws in this test please tell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.214.23.189 ( talk • contribs)
The F-22A may make use of Active Cancellation stealth systems where Radar waves are returned slightly out of phase, thus cancelling them out. 69.248.224.18 01:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Who are "They"?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.244.246.25 ( talk • contribs)
The first few paragraphs of the development section and procurement section seem to overlap, maybe we should consolidate some of that information?
I've heard that US wants to sell some F22s to Israel. Is there any sources for this? Should we include this in the article? 217.219.164.6 13:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Al-Jazeera reported that Rumsfield promised Israel during its last war on Lebanon, august 2006, that the US will eventually sell it Raptors 22, and that the US would even secure soft loans for Israel to buy those.. Needless to say, Israel is famus for accuriing US technology and then selling to US foes or country's not on USA's export list (Twaiwan for example).
Hey I'm going to edit the F-22 picture on the main header table, this picture is of two Raptors from the 27th FS after it went operational.
I don't think there should be a comparable aircraft section at the bottom of the article. The reason for this is there is nothing comparable to the F-22 flying today anywhere in the world- it truly is unique- nothing comes close to the combat performance of the F-22.-- Indian50 23:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Comprable aircraft? Maybe not. Ones the F-22 has to take seriously...definantly. The F-22 is not a panacea, and it is not just the technology of an aircraft that determines victory in battle. The F-22 may indeed be the greatest advance in fighter technology since the jet engine, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing else out there capable of competing on its level. No one knows how something performs until it goes into battle. Keep in mind the Air Force originally did not want the A-10, and expected it to take massive lossess. They were wrong. Meanwhile in Vietnam they thought the F-4 Phantom II would be unstoppable, they were wrong.
As far as comprable The F-22 is not the same kind of aircraft as the other next generation fighter. Notice the trend toward delta wings and forward canards appearing on most next generation aircraft but not the F-22. This layout is very much to improve dogfighting ability. But the F-22 is not meant to be a dofighter, it is designed to slip in fire its missiles, and leave without being detected. Only dogfighting with AIM-9's when necessary.
Klauth 05:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Who was that remark directed at? 24.217.29.51 22:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Well guys... here's my (a little ironic, sorry, couldn't resist, because I'm an "old european") comment: "two fighter aircraft take of from their base, meet and fight each other" is no realistic scenario. Fighters never come without support of AWACS (radar planes), satellites, ships, and / or ground support.
Stealth design and coating is not like a Star-Trek cloaking device. There is weather radar around, which can even track small clouds (so it eventually can also track F22 exhaust, unless the F22 exhaust also is stealth exhaust - just kidding!), and passive radar systems, which can detect stealth aircraft by detecting the disorder in electromagnetical background radiation caused by cellular phone systems, radio, satellites (GPS, TV, communication), radar etc., which is caused by the fact that stealth planes refract/absorb radiation. Of cause this requires a coupled network of "passive radar" stations, but as the stations do not emit any radiation, you cannot spot them (just in case there are people around who'd like to say "then the F22 flies around and takes out all those passive radar stations which it's super-high-range missiles before without being spotted! Hah!").
There are satellites overseeing the planet which can spot heat dissipation in real time and photograph a newspaper in your front lawn... and it's not only the US which actually has systems like that.
So any technically capable nation in the world can very probably detect an F22 in it's own airspace unless you destroy the whole communication infrastructure of that nation and/or the whole planet first.
Once the F22 is detected, there are missiles which can track it optically and/or by it's heat signature, as an F22 neither is optically invisible nor flies without creating heat.
The soviets shot down a B2, the serbs shot down an F117A (with a russian missile), so I really don't think an F22 is invincible. It's both naive and supercilious to believe that.
You can compare any aircraft to any other if you define criteria and measures (like, for example, "which aircraft can crush more meters of reinforced concrete by crashing into it at top speed"). You can compare packages of aircraft/engines/radar/missiles etc. in defined situations.
But it doesn't lead anywhere, as 1) there always are upgrades available for anything, so a modified version of fighter plane X maybe superior to plane Y in situation Z, and 2), you may not be able to influence the scenario in which the fighter aircraft is needed if it happens to come up.
You may have recognized that the actual revision of the (probably initially assumed uncomparably superior by some) M1 Abrams is the M1A2 (upgraded twice), and the AH64 Apache already is built in it's fourth / fifth revision. Please answer the question: Why that?
The answer is: The other guys do not actually sleep or something, so if the F22 will ever become engaged in an actual battle against the air force of any competitor in aircraft design, I'd not bet too much on the F22's uncomparable superiority.
^ The soviets never shot down a B2. TwinTurboZ 04:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
^ I presume he mispoke and meant the Soviets shot down a U2. If the Soviets had shot down a B2, it would have been during WW3 which, as I'm still sitting here and alive, has not happened. MazNJ 08:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
So of course there are comparable aircrafts. -- 83.171.150.187 21:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The entire section (comparisons) looks like it's an add for lockheed or Boeing. I seems that the main "sources" to the section are one excercise and three quotes by three people of whom two can hardly be described as "Neutral" and the other is a 2004 quote by an air marshall speaking of the future. An air exercise in which aircrafts simulated other aircrafts in a simulated situation, simply says nothing about the F22 in comparison to other aircrafts.
Nobody here has any hardcore knowledge about how the aerodynamical properties of the F22 compares to other modern aircrafts. And hence the article shouldn't imply aerodynamical superiority, since the authors simply don't know. The same goes for the sensors, data processing cababilities and trust vectoring.
So for the sake of "objectivity" maybe "know-not"s should stop making comparisons that they do not have the necessary technical skill nor knowledge to make.
The F-22 foreign sales issue was settled today by Congress along with a multi year contract with Lockheed Martin.
I think someone should add this new development to the F-22 article, and perhaps the part about ANG F-15C's to the Eagle article.
Thanks
http://aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_defense_story.jsp?id=news/F2209176.xml
I have and will delete on sight any uncited comparison between this plane and others, for example:
Basing on maneuverability, F-22 is close to Mig-35, which has slighly higher 1.19 thrust/(loaded) weight ratio and more agile 2D-vectoring engines. However, aside of maneuverability, F-22 is more stealthy, can take twice as much of arming than Mig-35 and has supersonic cruise mode, which is more economic and helps against old types of missiles (that only lead by the heat of afterburners and thus may have less success rate in tracking F-22).
T/W is not the only benchmark of maneuverability and does not present a complete picture. Concluding anything about maneuverability from a single number is a gross WP:OR violation. Similarly, "more stealthy, twice as much armament, etc" are all uncited original research and do not belong in an encyclopedia. If you'd like to compare these aircraft, go write an essay or get a job at RAND. -- Mmx1 22:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm deleting that BBC commet because first and foremost it's bull and does not belong there. The F-22 has never ever gone up against a Eurofighter, and that comment about stealth aircraft not being able to maneuver is too general and unfounded, with respect to the F-22. I'll post a few Raptor video links if I find them.
I've read through the article and have found no "Weasel Words" at all, please stop making such accusations.
should the fact that australia was going to be buying the f-22 be added
-- Noshpit 00:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I am changing several F-22 specifications due to my calculations below.
The F-22 does not weight 40,000 lb empty it weights 31,670 lb. The 40K figure is an overestimate put out by the USAF on purpose to marginalize F-22 capabilities. The original Lockheed Martin goal was to have the YF-22 weight 30,000 lb, no they did not miss the mark by 10K.
Sources http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Stu/muddin/F-22.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-specs.htm http://www.airtoaircombat.com/detail.asp?id=9
Next, the F-22 does not carry 25,000 lb of internal fuel, again that's just an estimate, the ture figure is 20,650 lb according to an official USAF safety DOC ( Technical Order 00-105E-9) See page 15. The Link is below.
http://www.0x4d.net/files/AF1/R11%20Segment%2012.pdf
Total fuel minus the four external fuel tanks is 20,650 lb.
The F-22 carries the M61A2 gun with 480 20mm rounds for its cannon, the entire system weights 648 pounds. The gun weight 202 lb, feed mechanism weights 176 lb and the ammunition weights 270 lb. The gun and feed mechanism are included in all aircraft produced so they are already part of the empty weight figure, only the ammunition is added on later.
(My Opinion - They need to add more ammo for that gun - The air force always pays dearly when undestimating the dogfighting role - and this thing costs way too much for such mistakes.)
Source http://www.gdatp.com/Products/PDFs/F-22A.pdf
A normal pilot (average weight 180 lb) and all his flight support systems will weight a total of around 250 lb.
The AIM-120C weighs 356 lb, the F-22A carries six internally, so 6 x 356 lb equals 2,136 lb.
http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/rms/documents/content/cms01_054563.pdf
The AIM-9X weights 188 lb, the F-22A carries two internally, so 2 x 188 equals 376 lb.
http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms01_054518.pdf
Now we can truly know the takeoff weight of the F-22A Raptor with a standard air to air load out.
31,670 lb + 20,650 lb , + 270 lb, + 250 lb, + 2,136 lb, + 376 lb = 55,352 lb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.158.30.36 ( talk • contribs)
Does anyone mind if I add an internal fuel category in the specifications area?
Someone here obviously has an issue with the F-22. That Comparisons Section describes the F-22 as "The World's Most Effective Fighter" some people have a problem with that statement. Need I remind everyone that it is simply an opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. If you don't like the F-22, then don't read this article. -- RaptorR3d.
- Anyone who has a problem with that statement is either being "neutral" for the sake of it or they have their head stuck in in the sand, in either case I recommend this article for ALL.
F-22 Dominates
- I'm fine with that, For I also support the F-22. -- RaptorR3d.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2006/articles/jul_06/alaska/index.html
- Very well then; let's just leave it as that and it should settle this debate. -- RaptorR3d.
I made a few minor changes to the article; I hope nobody minds. Anyhow, I believe it needs some severe restructuring. Mainly, I believe that the outline of the various sections probably needs to be rethought. Does anyone have any ideas? — Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 20:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone think of a way that we could utilize this image from this page? It's obviously a Lockheed image. I'd like to find a way to use it under {{ fair use}} or {{ promotional}}. What does everyone think? It's certainly more appropriate than this image which is currently in use (but is better than nothing.) — Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 06:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Somebody heared somerhing about it && —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.168.163.233 ( talk) 11:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
This page might have the potential for a GA rating on the quality scale. It has seen improvements so in my opinion, it could be put up one level. -- 24.6.160.190
The Stealth section is elliptical at best. It features vague examples of what the F-22 isn't, followed by negative assertions about other stealth aircraft without reference or support. Bias is evident throughout - "plagued by deployment problems..." would be improved by "maintenance heavy". There is no actual information about the stealth of the aircraft, or how the F-22 responds to issues raised about the B-2 or F-117. The entire section is taken from an aviation fan-zine, and struggles from lack of any real meat in the source material. I say this section should be scrapped until actual non-classified content about the stealth of this aircraft is referenced. Comparisons of the stealth capability and design approach to other stealth- and non-stealth aircraft would be welcome. As the F-22 is a "low-observable" stealth fighter aircraft, I would think that this is a section of high importance, and the abysmal dearth of content here limits the quality of the whole article severely. -- Metaxis 23:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I deleted specific RCS claims from the article because no source was provided. If somebody can provided a sourced estimate for the RCS, that would be kind of good...-- Robert Merkel 03:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Being deployed to Okinawa... Worthy of mention? Dunno. -- MyrddinEmrys 05:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/02/14/212102/pictures-navigational-software-glitch-forces-lockheed-martin-f-22-raptors-back-to-hawaii.html http://english.people.com.cn/200702/18/eng20070218_350967.html slashdot story http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/02/11/us_delays_f_22_raptor_fighters_arrival_in_japan/ Gadgetgeez
I added a source that indicated multiple computer failures coincident with crossing the international date line. -- Duk 18:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Does the F-22 have any video camera electronics in its underside? -- 24.249.108.133 16:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
All this stuff about war game stats is kinda dumb considering kills in these games are solely acheivable by gaining radar locks. Of course you will get zero radar locks on a stealth plane, however theoretically they could still be killed by enemy fighters lucky shots. I'm just saying it's just basically a pointless stat. It might as well just say current radar systems equiped on US planes are unable to lock onto the F22. - Arch NME 10:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Seing as the F-35 isn't in the same class of plane as the F-22, but is derived from it, I suggest moving the F-35 from Comparable Aircraft to Related development.
Have there been, or are their any publicly scheduled flight demonstrations of the F-22? I think the answer to the question would be relevant to the article. If my memory serves, it was a really big deal when the MiG-29 made its first western appearance in the Paris Airshow. Plus it'd be really cool to be, or have been at an f-22 demonstration. RMelon 14:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I'd like to put forward my own website as an external link for the F-22 Raptor page. I won't add the link myself, as that is considered spamming. Please have a look, we feature active discussions and a ton of photos of the F-22 Raptor.
http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index.php/topic,292.0.html
Cheers, Roger —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rhino Roger ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC).
There are plagarized passages in this article taken from at least three sources. I will be removing them once I have looked up the exact locations to support the fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Klauth ( talk • contribs)
One of the passages discussing the aircraft's speed I recognize from the handbook of the computer game "Total Air War" as I said when I can list specific page numbers and books I will list them, then remove the plagarized pieces. Another I recognize from a Jane's Book, etc. Just give me a day or two to dig the books out of their boxes.
According to LTC "Dozer" (Raptor Driver) the F-22's combat loaded weight is around ~64-65K, considering we know all of the other weight variables (as listed previously on this page)that means that the empty weight is roughly ~40K. Also, the same source said that he has sustained more than 9G's in the F-22 while maneuvering (9.5). Furthermore in the Langley 2007 air show the announcer commented that the F-119 produced 37K of thrust (most sources however think the real maximum 39K. I'm making these changes to the official specifications list.
Sources - Fence Check Langley Show - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAp5EVjucEs —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.197.204.65 ( talk) 03:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
What good are "published" sources when the people who fly the aircraft for a living are telling you otherwise? Considering journalistic ethics are nothing to look up at I'd go with a pilots word any day. Anyway, Is this too considered hearsay from a pilot?...
"Moga noted that he recently pulled 10.2 Gs in the F-22, performing a pullout from a hard turn. The F-22’s specifications say only that the aircraft can pull 9.5 Gs, but can take more, depending on “the ability of the pilot” to bear the pressure. Still, technicians checked the fighter for signs of strain but found none." http://dailyreport.afa.org/AFA/Features/newtech/box051807demo.htm
I don't see the need for an account, anyway if 10.2G or 9G for example is not the structural limit of the AC in question (and it's not), nor the limit of pilot, then what is the point of putting down -3 to 9G in the specifications?. Might as well write "classified" or put 9.5+... Or are there no "published" sources reporting such... Also might I remind you that the Raptors FCS places no limit on how many G's can be performed, neither are there speed limitations, that function is left up to the pilot. The Navy however does place a self imposed limit of 7.5G to reduce airframe stress, however even that can be overridden by the pilot in order to make use of the full performance envelope available (if need be).
As for pilots themselves, not all talk for the sake of it, and it is important to distinguish BS from a late night at the O Club from actual first hand accounts and information. To disregard all information from such an invaluable source is, quite frankly, foolish.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.239.76 ( talk • contribs)
That pilot has probably never seen a Typhoon in person let along fly DACT with it to know such details, probably drives Hercs for a living, again distinguish.
Anyway, you're right, Wiki is not the place for me, I know that most of the specifications given are not even in the ballpark let alone accurate. I just find it odd that say someone involved with the F-22 program could not edit something unless it was "published" somewhere, even thought the published information used now is clearly incorrect....
This section needs to be pared. The fact that the F-22 is being considered by other nations is fine to mention but look at the detail here especially in the passage on Australia. Comments? Bzuk 12:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC).
I replaced "Apple Macintosh" with "personal computer" since IEEE 1394 is common on many different computers; it's not unique to Macs. In fact, most computers with IEEE 1394 are IBM-compatible computers and not Apples. I see no reason to showcase one particular brand of computer when the technology is common on many different computers now. It's also misleading, since it leads the reader to believe that the only computers that have the technology are Macs. Whoever keeps reverting the article to read "Apple Macintosh" is simply being an advocate for Macs. TwinTurboZ 17:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Not my changes, but weren't Apple the first to introduce IEEE 1394 (as 'Firewire') and wasn't it a Mac innovation? Common now, it used to be associated principally with the Mac platform.
I propose a clear rule for the chapter “Comparable aircraft” in order to avoid all the nationalis fervor like “F-22 is in a league of it's own” or frustrations like “Why my favorite plane (Typhoon/Rafale) is not included even if it rates almost the same and cost 5 times less”. The comparables planes should the ones that (1) are produced/developed in the same time and (2) have at least some characteristics that are relatively comparable. While some planes are without discussion superior in some scenarios better than the direct competition they may find in a realistic battlefield ether as opponents or allies. More they are regularly compared by governments for acquisitions and in this case the winner is not necessarily decided by quality but also price, availability, easy to maintain, political pressure, corruption.... More it is useless to send an expensive F22 to police the sky of Somalia, a Mig 21 will do the job. BdB 134.157.93.124 14:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks BillCj for the answer. Well the peoples should use also common sense, otherwise a hot air baloon is able to reach higher altitudes and a zeppelin has a bigger range than F22. The problems is that users think that Wiki is for funs to express their desires and not to give an information as realiably and neutral as possible. BdB-18 16:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The 3D view pic in the "specifications" section is that of the prototype, YF-22. Since that pic is png, captions can't be added. Shouldn't we get a 3D view of the F-22?
I remember that discovery channel showed a 2 hr episode about yf22 vs yf23.I dont know te link,can you help me. manchurian candidate 08:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
What does that 73 number represent? The Number of combat ready F-22's delivered to the USAF or the number of AC in current squadron use? I ask because I know for a fact (and can prove) that Raptor's number 087 and 088 (90th FS Alaska) have been delivered to the AF. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.158.54.112 ( talk • contribs)
Yeah I know that the data is from Link 1 however all I'm saying is that it's incorrect (or at least not up to date). Since September of 2006 the USAF has begun receiving AC for the 90th FS, and as I said before Raptor's 87 and 88 have been delivered. That means the USAF is in possession of at least 88 Raptors... (Raptor 088 is marked with the tail sign AK 90th FS)
See for yourself... (these pictures were not meant to be released to the public by the way...)
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4070/ak5rp8.jpg http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7310/10720862qo7.jpg
The article says "its climb rate is faster than the F-15 Eagle due to advances in engine technology, despite the F-15's thrust-to-weight ratio of about 1.2:1, with the F-22 having a ratio closer to 1:1"
This doesn't sound right. If it's able to climb faster, that means that it either has a better thrust/weight ratio or the aircraft is just more aerodynamic. The fact that the max engine thrust is classified but we know that it climbs faster than the F-15 suggests that it may have more thrust than commonly believed, making the actual thrust/weight ratio better than the F-15's. TwinTurboZ 05:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
For an aircraft as significant as the F-22 Raptor, there should be some textual (book) references available. All I see are websites which are not exactly vetted for accuracy at times and can hardly been considered authoritative compared to major references. IMHO Bzuk.
Does the Raptor use fibre optics for its bus? Found no mention of this in the text. Bumper12 01:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
This article deperately needs editing by someone who isn't a 17 year fanboy and who has a basic grasp of physics - stealth does not mean "no detection by radar" but "reduced detection range, based on the fourth root of the radar signature". There's no discussion of the criticism of the plane by Ricconi and Sprey (eg poor fuel factor, massive visual signature) or of the criticism of the aircraft for not having a BVR weapon system equivalent to the Meteor. A key claim - that missile bays are only open for a second while launching an air to air missile - is made without a source or comprehension of its significance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.90.70 ( talk • contribs)
BillCJ, whether you do or don't like 2003's Hulk, the F-22 is the main focus of multiple action scenes in that movie - one which happens to be a notable Hollywood film - and as such, unless there was a film in which it appeared earlier, Hulk is the F-22's debut in a Hollywood film. How that is "cruft" is beyond me.
BillCJ, whether you do or don't like 2003's Hulk, the F-22 is the main focus of multiple action scenes in that movie - one which happens to be a notable Hollywood film - and as such, unless there was a film in which it appeared earlier, Hulk is the F-22's debut in a Hollywood film. How that is "cruft" is beyond me.
After being in place for a lengthy period of time, the following entry was recently removed: "The F-22 has been featured in numerous books, such as Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor (1994) and Clive Cussler's Dark Watch (2005). In doing a brief google search, 910 matches were made on Tom Clancy and F-22 and 558 matches of Clive Cussler and F-22. Here are specific references: Information Warfare and Deterrence Appendix C. Fundamentals of Information Warfare: An Airman's View and Dark Watch book review . I will replace this item with references in the near future. FWIW Bzuk 20:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC).
your missing the point, transformers is not the first or only pop culture refrence, putting it in there by itself is just silly HINSON1 05:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I updated the unit cost in the Infobox. This is from FY 2008/2009 Budget Estimates, which lists $157.7 million on page 1-13 (pg. 51 in file). See if I missed something. I expected the numbers to be closer to last year's $120M. - Fnlayson 17:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
...........................Thats BS, most of the F-22 (92) was bought at a price of 168M - you have found the lowest pricetag you could on that page an its for 20 planes only - do average cost and you get around 165. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.29.162 ( talk) 13:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Bill CJ You "Reverted unsourced, good-faith additions by 90.240.101.73" on the F-22, on the basis that they were not from a verifiable source. You reverted to a form of words that was plainly, demonstrably wrong, which is witless - even if there was a verifiable source, and you reverted to something that gave a false, misleading impression.
The points at issue were connected with the F-22's capability in the SEAD, EW and AWACS roles.
Because of its sensor capabilities, F-22 does have POTENTIAL in these roles, but this potential is limited by the aircraft's inability to transmit any sensor data to other platforms, except by voice radio. The Raptor pilot can therefore report by radio, but this falls far short of a genuine AWACS or ISTAR capability.
The existing IFDL (Intra Flight Data Link) is limited to communicating with other Raptors, and its Link 16 capability is austere (text messages only) and Receive Only.
This was confirmed by Larry Lawson, the F-22 Programme Manager in his presentation at the Paris Air Show, and was reported in Flight Daily News. It was also confirmed by Colonel Sutter, Chief of ACC/A8F, 5th Generation Fighter Division, and can be inferred from the Air Force Link article at http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123024639
In answer to the question: Is it true that the F-22 intraflight datalink cannot communicate with other tactical platforms, AWACS, Rivet Joint JSTARS, etc? (…..thereby limiting F-22 pilots to voice radio?) Is an F-22 pilot limited to voice radio?
Sutter answered: Currently, F-22s link with each other but do not link with other platforms except thru voice radio.
Nor is the F-22's APG-77 being given a high bandwidth transmission capability. This was explicitely denied by Lawson, though it remains an unfunded future option, alongside Link 16 TX/RX, and TTNT. 90.240.101.73 13:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Why did this aircraft take 20 years to enter operational service? That's kind of bizarre for any aircraft type. The basic design dates to the late 1980s. I wonder if there are technology obsolecence issues that might come into play. - Rolypolyman 02:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
you must have missed the article about the wi-fi which would cost 10,000 a month if it was comcast...theres nothing even approaching it commercially available- HINSON1 05:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
20 years of totality. The idea, the competition for the contract, took place mid-80s, but the plane's been in developement for 10-15 years, not 20. Still pretty long, but look at the result. The Walkin Dude 15:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The F-22 Jet is featured on the Command & Conquer Generals PC game as the American Raptor Jet, the main air unit for the American side. Should this be added to the popular culture section? Matty B 1000 16:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I saw at least 2 F-22 in an airshow over Toronto, Canada today. So is this the first airshow their featured in outside of the United States. Friday August 31st, 2007. 1:05 PM EST.
There has been a user spamming info in F-22 videos, such as this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=fBUmRd4hKlg and used a source that a Eurofighter beat an F-22 in a mock digfight. I've actually heard rumors about this happening long before:
"The Eurofighter have already beaten the F22 - take this source:
"international AIR POWER REVIEW" - year 2006, issue 20, page 45. - ISNB: 1-880588-91-9 (casebound) or ISBN: 1473-9917.
"Two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake. There was little suprise that the Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight.."
He has also been spreading around info, using the US Congress GOA report as a source, saying that the F-22 is severely flawed and has even made a video into it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIvgBbXKL5E
Now I'm wondering, how much of this stuff is actually true? Tsurugi 10:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
He was getting quotes from several other GAO reports from different years as well. Tsurugi 11:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The report that the guy was drawing much of his information from was primarily in this more recent March 2007 GAO report. type in "88" to go that F-22 page. What about the info in there? Have any of those issues in that report been resolved yet, such as the "mean time between maintenance" issue? I know the SRP isn't done. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07406sp.pdf Tsurugi 16:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
In your POV, Askari Mark, what do you think about the statements the user named Zeptocomp is saying about the F-22 on this forum? (his comments are in yellow) http://youtube.com/watch?v=vIvgBbXKL5E Is he making a good argument? Also, here is a site with another bunch of articles that claim supposed Eurofighter > F-22 dogfights that he cites from. The quotes are in the gray boxes [2]. In addition, what exactly is "mean time between maintainance"? I need some understanding about that. It can't be the amount of time where a plane can fly and has to land for maintainance (like the user is saying). Tsurugi 20:30, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh okay. Now i understand. What about my other questions? Tsurugi 21:20, 5 September 2007 (PT)
Well, compare this discussion to the sentence ... The US Air Force claims that the F-22A cannot be matched by any known or projected fighter aircraft... , a claim without solid foundation and surely carrying a load of bias - right in the introduction as a crucial part of the article. Bitching about the source for the GAO-story and not including it in the proper context, maybe with a critical remark, seems like applying a double standard here. But as you may have noticed, every version of wikipedia has it's very own shortcomings, and this one's the desire to portray the US' holy grails as bright as possible, being less critical and more selective. Would the GAO-report support the "F22's superiority", it would be in the article, it's really as easy as that. 88.65.252.208 13:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
ADDING EUROFIGHTER DOGFIGHT TO PERFORMANCE I have added the Eurofighter Dogfight to performance... I then saw the discussions here. I don't agree with removing this reference (and I am not the guy you claimed to be responsible for the Utube and spams). The eurofighter engagement happened, it is a very reliable source and well documented. If these comparisons wouldn't have been fair, the USAF would have hardly agreed to send their F-22. So citing theoretical arguments to remove a real world engagement backed up with sources is not appropriate. Especially since you claim to not know the Eurofighter. At the end lets list the engagements that took place in real world and leave the speculations and simulations and your paper calculations on the side. Also before removing this source, please get the source in question, read it yourself first.
Also in regards to removing the other sources (a 2007 source even) just because you think it's not reliable or warranted is wrong. Honestly I think a 1999 or 2007 congressional report is a pretty reliable assessment and whether it still applies or not is irrelevant since the source contains the date and the user knows that is is older if he can see the date.
If you have a later source you can claim that the issues have been fixed and add the later source. However just reading this discussion and the deliberate removal of anything that sounds remotely negative seems wrong to me - it almost would want me to use the latest wiki-changes tracking tools to see where/what computer your edits are coming from... that might add some more information to this discussion or even topic.
Then my other request is to REMOVE the following quote: "Marshal Angus Houston, chief of the Australian Defence Force, and former head of the Royal Australian Air Force, said in 2004 that the "F-22 will be the most outstanding fighter plane ever built"" The reason being that the quote is a pretty stupid thing to say and reflects more the Marshal rather then saying anything about the plane. First recent engagements show that this statement is simply not true. Second to use "EVER" in his statement is simply a dumb thing to say. I am sure there will be hundreds of fighter planes in the coming 1,000 years that will be much more outstanding then the F-22 - in fact I can think of a large number of planes in the previous century that were A WHOLE LOT more outstanding and revolutionary. Just because someone said something doesn't mean it should be included if what they say is just marketing talk.
Although real-life has kept me off-wiki for the last couple of weeks, I have been trying to see what I could uncover about the incident alleged to have happened by the IAPR. So far I have found not the slightest confirmation that the event ever occurred and many reasons to disbelieve the report altogether.
The article as a whole is essentially an unapologetic puff piece on the Typhoon; that doesn’t mean anything written in it is automatically untrue, but it does caution any reader to beware of possible bias in anything uncited – and nothing regarding the Typhoon vs. F-22 incident is sourced, either internally or by footnote. The entirety of what was written about the story is a single paragraph:
The F-15 engagement reported is reliably attested to by multiple reliable sources, so it is not at issue. (However, as the Scotsman makes a little clearer, the fighters involved were F-15E Strike Eagles, not the F-15C air superiority version, and it would have been shameful for the Typhoon to have been bested by these heavier, less-maneuverable birds.) In fact, one has to wonder if the Typhoon vs. F-22 report isn’t a garbled version of this event.
For this latter, the IAPR article mentions uncited “repeated reports” (which I’ve been so far unable to find online), but then goes on to refer to only the forum website report. (Perhaps the “repeated reports” were multiple acquaintances telling him about the website post?) The author seems to have only secondhand information on the forum – which goes unnamed (just like the “senior RAF officer”). While he mentions that it is “frequented by front-line RAF aircrew”, the original forum post appears to not have been made by someone in the RAF nor a witness to the alleged events – otherwise he would have said so to gain greater credibility. Furthermore, RAF professionals or in-place witnesses would not make the mistake of claiming that the F-22 flew against the Typhoon at NAS China Lake. That’s a US Navy facility, and the US Air Force has its own equivalent facilities. (Both do offer these facilities to the air forces of allied nations for testing that can’t be duplicated in-country at reasonable expense.)
Of the knowledgeable people I’ve spoken to, few had ever heard of this allegation and all were all but sure that the F-22 has not (yet) been to China Lake nor has it been flown in mock engagements against the Typhoon specifically or against any aircraft flown by non-US personnel. Of course, one can never prove with 100% certainty that such an event occurred and was highly classified – given how security rules go regarding stealth technology – but it seems unlikely. In fact, it reads more like “something made up on the Internet one day.” As it stands, all we have is a report of a rumor on a web forum about a rumor from an unknown source posted by someone without first-hand knowledge or professional experience. Until there is evidence based on what Wikipedia considers to be reliable sources, there seems to be no reason to include the alleged incident at all. Askari Mark (Talk) 20:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok me again.. well parsecboy see that's what I don't get. Why do you ASSUME that THE SOURCE had no SOURCES (because they don't list it? You simply don't know it). I think if you have A SOURCE - a very respectable one, its ok to quote them unless you have PROOF that they lied - until you can bring that proof, or tell us all why YOUR clout or knowledge or experience should count MORE then a specialty print magazine subscribed to by all major airforces in the world, I suggest you just stop with your biased focus. It ruins wikipedia for all of us. Your arguments don't make sense, they are not logical and an insult to all of us. You say that the FORUM mentioned doesn't count - WHY - because you say so???? I think a professional aviation publication subscribed to by all major AF in the world is a valid source period - and if you think the source lied then bring proof.. until then the source is valid - period. Sirbidmaster 18:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.190.6 ( talk) 22:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I am still concerned by the bias that is being adopted here. The claim at the beginning of the article is pure "marketing" and has no place on wikipedia, the fact that it is left there shows my earlier assumption of a pr war. I'll remove it to protest it. The claim that "cannot be matched by any known or projected fighter" is simply marketing BS and not worthy wikipedia.... ITS MARKETING period - and any discussion about it is useless and just shows bias. Let's face it guys. The Typhoons raped the Raptors at NAS china lake and there are tons of people working on hiding that fact. Let's all dig a bit deeper, so far there are MORE THEN ENOUGH proof/sources that all point into the same direction. Typhoon's were at china lake at the same time as raptors, exercice name etc. etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.190.6 ( talk) 17:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The F-22 Raptor flown by an international landmark--the CN Tower--during its first public demonstration outside of the United States on the long weekend of September 1-3, 2007. This is undeniable an historic event. The event was captured on the picture (right). Some wikipedia contributors insist in removing the picture from the main article, their objection being that the picture is low quality. Truly, this is why this picture is published under the "Trade Show" heading: it is meant to be a record of a life event, not a glossy sales brochure. The article shows plenty of other quality pictures of the aircraft. If someone has a better quality picture to illustrate the subject event, be my guest and replace it. Until then, this picture may be the best available to illustrate that historic event.
Before someone just single-mindedly reject someone else's contribution, at least first take a breather, write up your thoughts in this "talk" section, then let's see toghether what is best for this publication.-- JLdesAlpins 23:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
This article currently reads: In 2007, tests carried out by Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, and L-3 Communications enabled the AESA system of a Raptor to act like a WiFi access point, able to transmit data at 548 Megabit/sec and receive at Gigabit speed, far faster than the current Link 16 system used by US and allied aircraft, which transfers data at just over 1 Megabit/sec. However, the Link 16 page claims a data rate of 31.6kbits to 115.2kbits/sec, about a tenth of that. The higher rate comes unsourced from an article at The Register, which is generally slightly less accurate than reading sheep entrails. Anyone have a good source for the data rate of Link 16? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaleja ( talk • contribs) 18:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Who wrote the propaganda piece on the F-22 Raptor, this sound more like an F-22 fanpage than anything else. This page should be marked as propaganda page, it has a clear bias.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Financialmodel ( talk • contribs)
Someone is rying to make the jumper statement support a biased view that the f-22 is better than te typhoon, by saying they are desiged for "difference performence", while he deleted another statement by juumper that they run "neck on neck". - this article needs to be marked as biased, correct the quotes, or simply delete te biased comparison quotes taken out of context. -- Financialmodel 18:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
"The F/A-22 Raptor has stealth and supercruise," he said. "It has the ability to penetrate virtually undetected because of (those) capabilities. It is designed to be a penetrating airplane. It can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is."
This is an encyclopedic article. Disrespectful posts will not be tolerated. This article is not meant to show which fighter jet is better, or which continent is better. This page will not turn into a Typhoon comparison page. It is only appropriate to include information about each jet. Readers of this resource are the ones to decide what to think. Anyone adding content to this talk page must sign his or her post by typing four (4) tildes after added content. Nicholas SL Smith 23:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree there may be a bias to this article. I always attempt to think outside the box, even if it means a little bit to not believe in my religion possibly, but many opinions were given in this article. Perhaps some facts, but I would in the future like to see someone who has pictures of them actually going to these test sites and saying they have seen the actual results, and to be honest, I wouldn't want this to be like the olympics, and I would actually prefer unbribed judges of many countries, even if it means communists. - No offense to any judges of the olympics. CutNut 05:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Flight International (a respected publication) consistently cites the unit price as $200 million. And more recently than the USAF reference in this article's infobox. e.g.
Any thoughts? Mark83 23:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
is the united states planing to seel any of those fighter jets i n the future to nato or allied countries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Topsecrete ( talk • contribs) 18:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone verify the source of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MFpart ( talk • contribs) 20:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The exercise was focused on training the youngest and newest F-22 pilots, according to Bergeson. Nearly one-third of the pilots involved in the F-22's portion of the exercise had less than 50 flight hours on the aircraft. The "red" force of aggressors consisted of various F-15s and F-16s that were able to regenerate upon sustaining damage; thus they were able to constantly flow into and out of the fight, maintaining a rigorous operational tempo.
The friendly "blue" force lost one F-22 during the exercise, Bergeson says. He attributes the loss to a confusing "mulligan," whereby an enemy "red" fighter regenerated or re-entered the fight unbeknownst to the blue forces. "We made some tactical mistakes and one slipped through," Bergeson told reporters Feb. 27 during a telecom from Langley Air Force Base, Va., upon returning from the deployment. Apparently, the F-22 pilot did not realize the aggressor was not out of the fight and should have continued to attack the aircraft.
Bomb test flameout nearly crashes F-22-- 90.186.140.193 07:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)