This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Impressive how you call it a Redirect when in actual fact you simply deleted the article from Wikipedia! I like your style not. ~ Rameses 09:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a minority-held view, and goes against the global warming theory in a few ways. I know a lot of people will want to be deffending Global Warming in this (sepecificly environmentalists); but can we please try to keep this one civil and NPOV. It is a scientific theory, and though it does not have the consesnsus of the entire scientific community, it is a scientific theory none the less... just as all theories started out as. This is not a place for political environmentalist attacks. This is a place for defining, explaining, deffending, and rebutaling a theory. A gathering of information. Please, let's keep it that way. Thank you. SadanYagci 15:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no scientific evidence whatsoever for the supposed "theory" of solar system warming. Zero. Zilch. Nil. Nada. None. The term "solar system warming" is unknown in the scientific literature. Unless you can find a reliable source that proposes this supposed "theory", it needs to go. Until then it is a near-perfect example of the type of synthesis that is prohibited as original research. To quote WP:SYN:
Will be tagged for deletion. Too long, unfortunately, for speedy deletion. Raymond Arritt 04:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
It’s too bad that people have to use wikipedia for political agenda's. Some of the ref's used for the "theory" actually disprove it. Such as the statement in the article: "The Max Planck Institute has asserted that solar activity over the past 60 to 70 years may have been at its highest level in 8,000 years". This is in spite of the fact that the referenced article goes on to state that it is unlikely to have been the dominant cause of global warming during the past three decades. Definitely OR and POV. -- I already forgot 04:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)\
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Solar_system_warming DGG 06:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The above named book by Rasmus E. Benestad discusses solar activity and climate change on Earth and compares and also looks at other planets in the solar system. The author writes: "We will glean some information from two other earth-like planets, Venus and Mars, as well as the Moon, and compare these to our own Earth. Both the planets have an atmosphere which exhibit similar features as well as different attributes to the Earth's atmosphere. If variations in the Sun produce changes in the Earth's climate, one may expect to see similar fluctuations in the brightness temperature on Venus and perhaps Mars." (page 4) [2] I quote this section of the book because of the current effort to delete this article. This is just one example of evidence showing that the Sun's role in warming on other planets is a subject of scientific interest. The effort to delete this page is purely an effort to censor information rather than deliver information to Wikipedia readers. RonCram 11:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
William, I assume you will pardon me while I continue to look for published results myself. RonCram 13:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This book by Michael Hanlon has a chapter titled "Global Warming on Mars." Not much of the chapter is available through Google Book Search but I did find one interesting quote: "Mars is changing and it is changing on a time scale we can measure and observe" - Mike Malin (2001). (page 156) [3] The warming of Mars does not seem to be a seasonal event, like winter and summer here on Earth. The warming on Mars appears to have been going on for some years. The book by Hanlon apparently contains a series of pictures over time. RonCram 11:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
When people learn that Earth, Mars, Neptune and Pluto are all warming, I think it is natural for people to look for the obvious climate forcing these planets share. People naturally look for evidence the warming is caused by the Sun. I have not yet found much conclusive evidence the Sun is responsible. For example, Pluto is warming even though it is moving away from the Sun. Neptune's moon Triton is warming and it is about the same distance from the Sun as Pluto. Is it possible the warming could be from solar variation? Maybe but scientists are not saying that yet. I found an article that discusses warming on Pluto and Triton. While solar input is discussed, the scientists are mostly crediting changes to the atmosphere and increased atmospheric pressure for the higher temps. But a great deal of uncertainty is still involved. "This is a very complex process, and we just don't know what is causing these effects" on Pluto's surface, Elliot said. "That's why you need to send a mission." [4] This article can be very informative to Wikipedia readers who are wondering if the warming on all these planets is connected. RonCram 18:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I hope this thing dies; but in case it doesn't I've added some stuff about Pluto from the ref. One of the things this article should emphasise is the lack of any T obs. Pluto seems to be guessed from atmos p from stellar occulation; and as far as I can tell they have two datapoints 14y apart William M. Connolley 20:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
And I added Triton.
Also I took out Jupiter, since I couldn't see anything about warming in the article PP linked to. A more reliable ref - [5] - does predict changes; but its clear from that that they are redistributions of heat linked to dynamic changes in the atmosphere. Hmm. OK, worth adding actually... William M. Connolley 20:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
He probably is using the wrong analogy, the seasonal one is better: it isn't hottest in the NH on 21st june, but somewhat later in the year William M. Connolley 23:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I changed "all" in the intro to "some", on the grounds that only a few had even been listed. Is the hypothesis really "all"? This rather shows into sharp relief how OR this entire thing is: how are we supposed to know? Whose hypothesis is this anyway? William M. Connolley 20:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Stephan, whether you consider it interesting and valid or not is beside the point. The idea the warming on these different planets is connected is out there. People are talking about it and they want more information about it. Whether the idea comes from scientists or not is beside the point. Wikipedia has to provide the answers science gives. RonCram 00:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Childhe reordered the section, on the grounds that Moved Jupiter and Triton section in relevance order - No rovers on Jupiter/Pluto, and Sun's influence on Earth obviously more similar to Mars than to farther bodies. Is this indeed part of the theory? Ie, that we are specifically looking for things similar to the earth? I though it was about warming throughout the solar system. If it *is* part of the theory, it should be mentioned as such on the page. Or should we be honest and retitle the article "yet another attempt to explain global warming as something, anything other that co2"? William M. Connolley 22:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I have again removed the quote from Plaut. The space.com article cited is guilty of false advertising. If you read the papers which are the basis of the press release that the article used, you find that the climate variations on Mars are due strictly to oscillations in the Martian spin state. So stop adding the stuff back in: you are mis-representing the speaker. That said, the PR for Martian climate research is not as careful as it should be (see my statements on Talk:Mars), which is why this article exists at all. Michaelbusch 04:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
All of the articles cited as purported sources of 'global warming' on Pluto say exactly the contrary of the thesis presented in this article. They are not relevant: the changes in the temperature of Pluto are caused by thermal inertia and changes in albedo as methane ice condenses in permanent shadow. The one reference that might have implied 'solar system warming' was again a researcher taken out of context: he admitted that we don't understand the process on Pluto in all details. That is hardly an endorsement of 'solar system warming'. Such mis-representation is not acceptable. Michaelbusch 04:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The MIT press release the quote was taken from: [7]. Jim Elliot was explaining that much about Pluto remains unknown and advocating the New Horizons mission. He wasn't claiming anything about the warming being external. In fact, the article says very clearly that the warming is due entirely to processes on Pluto's surface (quotes from the various researchers involved). The writers of this article have been very selective in the information they took from their sources.
The above mis-representation concerns apply also to the material on Jupiter (where the oscillations in climate are proposed based on cloud physics models) and Triton, where the temperature changes are uncertain and can be accounted for by strictly local changes in albedo. I have removed this material per the above. Note: this article did have one purpose, although not that which the authors intended. It emphasizes the dynamic nature of planets: they change, they oscillate, they do strange and wonderful things. But the variations presented on this page are explained by processes that are different in every case, and the climate changes on Earth have their own cause (us). Michaelbusch 04:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Impressive how you call it a Redirect when in actual fact you simply deleted the article from Wikipedia! I like your style not. ~ Rameses 09:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a minority-held view, and goes against the global warming theory in a few ways. I know a lot of people will want to be deffending Global Warming in this (sepecificly environmentalists); but can we please try to keep this one civil and NPOV. It is a scientific theory, and though it does not have the consesnsus of the entire scientific community, it is a scientific theory none the less... just as all theories started out as. This is not a place for political environmentalist attacks. This is a place for defining, explaining, deffending, and rebutaling a theory. A gathering of information. Please, let's keep it that way. Thank you. SadanYagci 15:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no scientific evidence whatsoever for the supposed "theory" of solar system warming. Zero. Zilch. Nil. Nada. None. The term "solar system warming" is unknown in the scientific literature. Unless you can find a reliable source that proposes this supposed "theory", it needs to go. Until then it is a near-perfect example of the type of synthesis that is prohibited as original research. To quote WP:SYN:
Will be tagged for deletion. Too long, unfortunately, for speedy deletion. Raymond Arritt 04:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
It’s too bad that people have to use wikipedia for political agenda's. Some of the ref's used for the "theory" actually disprove it. Such as the statement in the article: "The Max Planck Institute has asserted that solar activity over the past 60 to 70 years may have been at its highest level in 8,000 years". This is in spite of the fact that the referenced article goes on to state that it is unlikely to have been the dominant cause of global warming during the past three decades. Definitely OR and POV. -- I already forgot 04:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)\
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Solar_system_warming DGG 06:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The above named book by Rasmus E. Benestad discusses solar activity and climate change on Earth and compares and also looks at other planets in the solar system. The author writes: "We will glean some information from two other earth-like planets, Venus and Mars, as well as the Moon, and compare these to our own Earth. Both the planets have an atmosphere which exhibit similar features as well as different attributes to the Earth's atmosphere. If variations in the Sun produce changes in the Earth's climate, one may expect to see similar fluctuations in the brightness temperature on Venus and perhaps Mars." (page 4) [2] I quote this section of the book because of the current effort to delete this article. This is just one example of evidence showing that the Sun's role in warming on other planets is a subject of scientific interest. The effort to delete this page is purely an effort to censor information rather than deliver information to Wikipedia readers. RonCram 11:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
William, I assume you will pardon me while I continue to look for published results myself. RonCram 13:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This book by Michael Hanlon has a chapter titled "Global Warming on Mars." Not much of the chapter is available through Google Book Search but I did find one interesting quote: "Mars is changing and it is changing on a time scale we can measure and observe" - Mike Malin (2001). (page 156) [3] The warming of Mars does not seem to be a seasonal event, like winter and summer here on Earth. The warming on Mars appears to have been going on for some years. The book by Hanlon apparently contains a series of pictures over time. RonCram 11:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
When people learn that Earth, Mars, Neptune and Pluto are all warming, I think it is natural for people to look for the obvious climate forcing these planets share. People naturally look for evidence the warming is caused by the Sun. I have not yet found much conclusive evidence the Sun is responsible. For example, Pluto is warming even though it is moving away from the Sun. Neptune's moon Triton is warming and it is about the same distance from the Sun as Pluto. Is it possible the warming could be from solar variation? Maybe but scientists are not saying that yet. I found an article that discusses warming on Pluto and Triton. While solar input is discussed, the scientists are mostly crediting changes to the atmosphere and increased atmospheric pressure for the higher temps. But a great deal of uncertainty is still involved. "This is a very complex process, and we just don't know what is causing these effects" on Pluto's surface, Elliot said. "That's why you need to send a mission." [4] This article can be very informative to Wikipedia readers who are wondering if the warming on all these planets is connected. RonCram 18:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I hope this thing dies; but in case it doesn't I've added some stuff about Pluto from the ref. One of the things this article should emphasise is the lack of any T obs. Pluto seems to be guessed from atmos p from stellar occulation; and as far as I can tell they have two datapoints 14y apart William M. Connolley 20:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
And I added Triton.
Also I took out Jupiter, since I couldn't see anything about warming in the article PP linked to. A more reliable ref - [5] - does predict changes; but its clear from that that they are redistributions of heat linked to dynamic changes in the atmosphere. Hmm. OK, worth adding actually... William M. Connolley 20:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
He probably is using the wrong analogy, the seasonal one is better: it isn't hottest in the NH on 21st june, but somewhat later in the year William M. Connolley 23:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I changed "all" in the intro to "some", on the grounds that only a few had even been listed. Is the hypothesis really "all"? This rather shows into sharp relief how OR this entire thing is: how are we supposed to know? Whose hypothesis is this anyway? William M. Connolley 20:57, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Stephan, whether you consider it interesting and valid or not is beside the point. The idea the warming on these different planets is connected is out there. People are talking about it and they want more information about it. Whether the idea comes from scientists or not is beside the point. Wikipedia has to provide the answers science gives. RonCram 00:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Childhe reordered the section, on the grounds that Moved Jupiter and Triton section in relevance order - No rovers on Jupiter/Pluto, and Sun's influence on Earth obviously more similar to Mars than to farther bodies. Is this indeed part of the theory? Ie, that we are specifically looking for things similar to the earth? I though it was about warming throughout the solar system. If it *is* part of the theory, it should be mentioned as such on the page. Or should we be honest and retitle the article "yet another attempt to explain global warming as something, anything other that co2"? William M. Connolley 22:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I have again removed the quote from Plaut. The space.com article cited is guilty of false advertising. If you read the papers which are the basis of the press release that the article used, you find that the climate variations on Mars are due strictly to oscillations in the Martian spin state. So stop adding the stuff back in: you are mis-representing the speaker. That said, the PR for Martian climate research is not as careful as it should be (see my statements on Talk:Mars), which is why this article exists at all. Michaelbusch 04:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
All of the articles cited as purported sources of 'global warming' on Pluto say exactly the contrary of the thesis presented in this article. They are not relevant: the changes in the temperature of Pluto are caused by thermal inertia and changes in albedo as methane ice condenses in permanent shadow. The one reference that might have implied 'solar system warming' was again a researcher taken out of context: he admitted that we don't understand the process on Pluto in all details. That is hardly an endorsement of 'solar system warming'. Such mis-representation is not acceptable. Michaelbusch 04:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The MIT press release the quote was taken from: [7]. Jim Elliot was explaining that much about Pluto remains unknown and advocating the New Horizons mission. He wasn't claiming anything about the warming being external. In fact, the article says very clearly that the warming is due entirely to processes on Pluto's surface (quotes from the various researchers involved). The writers of this article have been very selective in the information they took from their sources.
The above mis-representation concerns apply also to the material on Jupiter (where the oscillations in climate are proposed based on cloud physics models) and Triton, where the temperature changes are uncertain and can be accounted for by strictly local changes in albedo. I have removed this material per the above. Note: this article did have one purpose, although not that which the authors intended. It emphasizes the dynamic nature of planets: they change, they oscillate, they do strange and wonderful things. But the variations presented on this page are explained by processes that are different in every case, and the climate changes on Earth have their own cause (us). Michaelbusch 04:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)