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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions for the period May-June 2006. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think some editors of this page are somewhat one-sided in their opinions and do not accept any other opinions. This is very unfortunate and shows me their inability to be tolerant to other views. It seems a waste of time to even contribute if 2 or 3 people control this page like their opinion is G*d's word. I also do not agree with some assumptions made, like "most" or "the Germans" or "the Poles". It is very generalizing, has plenty of omissions and exchangable "most" and "the" words (very manipulating), and does not take into account individual experience and individual suffering. Other opinions are not respected here.
User:25 213.70.74.165 keeps deleting this section and I keep reverting his deletion. This sort of useless edit-warring gets us nowhere. The truth is... the section is in the article for far more time than it is out. Check the logs. This time, the text remained deleted for 4 1/2 hours. The last time, it was reverted almost immediately.
Thus, User:25 213.70.74.165 is only managing to make his/her point for a fraction of the time and the rest of the time the text he/she is objecting to stands. Thus, the repeated deletions serve only to annoy the rest of us and there is no chance that the text will remain deleted if he/she continues in this manner.
Furthermore, these repeated deletions without explanation constitute vandalism and could result in User:25 213.70.74.165 being blocked if someone were to appeal this to an administrator.
I prefer that we do not go down that road if we don't have to.
I got here via the RFC and I came to help, not to join in an edit war.
Can I suggest that we work towards a compromise that will get User:25 213.70.74.165's point across in a manner that is acceptable to all?
I do not completely understand User:25 213.70.74.165's point although I understand some of it.
Here are the possibilities:
1) Selbstschutz was terminated in 1940 and therefore could not be used as a reason for the expulsions
Response: The memory of past events can influence current events
2) Not many Germans were involved in Selbstschutz
Response: I'm willing to credit this if there's documentation. I've asked User:Molobo for English sources and though some have been provided, the most critical passage remains supported by a Polish website. Here's the text in question:
"Every tenth German living in Poland was a member of Selbstschutz and 25% of the German population belonged to Nazi-sponsored organizations aiding in the Nazi conquest of Poland."
I would guess that this assertion is something that User:25 213.70.74.165 would object to. I am confounded by the lack of an English translation but nonetheless, let's assume that the Polish source does actually document those numbers. It is incumbent on User:25 213.70.74.165 to find a source refuting the numbers. Does the Centre against Expulsions say nothing on this question?
3) Even if some Germans in Poland aided the Nazis, that was not a reason for expelling the entire population.
Response: There are two ways to read the above sentence. One is "very few people in Poland, especially in the Polish government thought about the aid given to the Nazis by Germans in Poland". I doubt that this statement is true but we could insert if if it were sourced.
The other way to read the above sentence is "the aid given to the Nazis was not a valid reason to expel the entire population."
I agree with this but it needs to be sourced.
I am out of time this morning. I need to get going. Let's all think of a way to defuse this controversy so as to get past the edit-warring. And, please, let's discuss here rather than engage in edit-warring.
Happy editing.
-- Richard 14:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Selbstschutz was terminated in 1940 and therefore could not be used as a reason for the expulsions This was irrelevent in the opinion of Poles. It was given as example of unwillngess of German minority to be loyal to Poland. I actually restricted myself to connected examples. If I would want to give more examples of such behaviour I could give information about German minority pushing for ethnic expulsion of Poles in WWI already. "Every tenth German living in Poland was a member of Selbstschutz and 25% of the German population belonged to Nazi-sponsored organizations aiding in the Nazi conquest of Poland." Well as to Selbstschutz-it had 81,000 or so members in Poland out of 741,000 Germans living in it.The actuall percentage is a bit higher as you see. And you have to remember that as Selbstschutz was made out of fit men, it didn't include women, children and elderly who compromised part of population also. If you would count only the male population from which those 81,000 that was recruted , you would get larger numbers in terms of support. But again I didn't do this this time.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Molobo ( talk • contribs)
Heh, I will try to translate the related parts as soon as possible. And you are right about the translation :) -- Molobo 00:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Since when did finding one source in a foreign language mean that it was verified or accurate? usually if one cannot find more then one source for information on such a controversial subject, it is pure conjecture and conspiracy theory (which I wouldnt put past Molobo seeing his previous links on other articles). and come on, it states Nazi-sponsored organizations, many different organizations were sponsored by the Nazis, the Red Cross was sponsored by Nazis as well as other humanitarian organizations, by the definition given, anyone working for the Red Cross was a Nazi collaborator. More sources need to be found that can verify this. this of course is not to mention that this is not some peer reviewed published article, but from a website, which can be created by anyone!
-- Jadger 02:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Source of 81,000 number [1], actually I made a mistake its 82,000. The source is on-line encyclopedia of PWN using Wielka Encyklopedia PWN as source . As to pre-war German population data from census [2] -- Molobo 10:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
According to a recent article by a Polish historian - Zamość expulsion eyewitness - all German adult male settlers wore black uniforms. I don't know the exact meaning of it, but they were members of a Nazi organization. Xx236 08:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Now, I mean German settlers in Zamość region 1942-1944. The local Poles called them Czarni (Blacks) because of the uniforms. Xx236 12:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't claim anything general about the Germans in Poland, I have given an example of tens of thousands of German settlers in Zamość region, who were hated by local Poles and had to leave in 1944. I believe that many Germans should have been allowed to stay in Communist Poland, but the ones who were expelled to Western Germany won. Xx236 15:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The main reason was Soviet leadership's (or Stalin's) opinion, especially the future of Germany. It's absurd to ignore the main reason and to include a so long discussion about secondary reasons. Stettin was annexed to Poland, probably because the SU wanted to control the harbor.
In Poland the expulsion was generally a state policy. Local authorities wanted to keep many German workers and were pressed from above to deport them. The state policy was imposed by or at least consulted with Moscow.
Xx236 08:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I can source this. -- Molobo 10:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oder-Neisse line contains some info, but it does not translate Stalin's language into plain English. Xx236 12:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not willing to participate in the “Selbstschutz”-discussion any more. Regardless whether the whole Selbstschutz-issue could have been a sound reason for the expulsion (by the way, it would not have been), it was simply not the reason. The reason was that Stalin and Truman decided in Potsdam to shift Poland to the west in order to secure that the Soviet Union could permanently keep the territories occupied by the Red Army in the course of the execution of the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty in 1939. In order to clear room for the Polish refugees and to prevent future ethnic violence in the new western parts of Poland/former eastern parts of Germany, the German population had been expelled.
However taking a look at the main side, the west-shift of Poland is mentioned in a little, tiny paragraph hidden somewhere in the middle part of the page whereas the article about German minority organisations grows and grows. I do not mind writing about Selbstschutz, Werwolf, etc. but please not on this page as there is no significant connex (it was not the reason and it would not even have been a proper reason). Neither do I want to relativise or conceal anything what happened before and during WWII but it makes me sad and angry how the topic is handled here.
Millions were expelled from their homes where their ancestors had lived partly for more than 600 years, and millions were killed on their way to the west, mostly women, children and old men, driven like cattle, fucked, burned and robbed. This is a cheerless part of European history and would have deserved a better, ie more objective and academic treatment. Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be.
Anyway, I am tired of fighting against windmills and hence abstain from deleting the weird Selbstschutz section from now on. I wish you guys a lot of fun with your homemade-history on this page in the future (“Wo rohe Kräfte sinnlos walten, da kann sich kein Gebild gestalten”, Friedrich Schiller). ( 213.70.74.164 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Would you please discuss my text rather than removing in from this discussion? Xx236 14:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do I disconnect the expulsion from the war? I expressively connected it to the Potsdam Conferrence which is undoubtfully connected to WWII. And why I am not allowed to lament the victims, are they second-class victims? ( 213.70.74.164 15:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
I added the citation needed for the fact that most of the Germans in Czechoslovakia were Nazi supporters.
I also added some text from http://countrystudies.us/czech-republic/26.htm , it should be public domain and it demonstrates the situation in pre-WWII Czechoslovakia. But it is quite long. If anyone is able to shorten it, please do so, but these facts should be preserved:
ackoz
14:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OK .. 213 no discussion with you no more, all your changes will be reverted if you really removed something from the discussion. You are an idiot.
ackoz
14:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you angry, angry little man with your big, big flag... No discusions with you any more - that sounds indeed seductively! By the way, calling me an idiot convinces me of your intellectual helplessness and mental narrowness. As for the deleted comment, it would have been better for Xx236 "reputation" to keep it deleted. It had been undoubtfully millions of victims (approx. 2 million) and to claim it was the guilt of a non-existing German governmemt (formed in 1949!) that so many died between 1945 - 1948 as they did not organize their own expulsion is cynicism at its best. (
213.70.74.165
14:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
It's undoubtfully cynical to claim 2 million German victims after the war. Hundreds of thousands of Germans died during the "Flucht", see above "Flucht und Vertreibung", many perished in the Soviet Union (PoWs, miners). It didn't have any connection to any expulsion, it was a war and Communism. As for the expulsion: Even the biased German Wiki claims 60.000-80.000 victims of camps in Poland. I don't want to discuss this numbers now, the reader can compare 80 000 in Poland plus 30 000 in Czechoslovakia (according to German historian Peter Glotz) and alleged 2 millions. Xx236 15:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
For your information just two sources concerning the overall number of two millions victims (please note that the BPB and the WDR have an excellent international reputation):
http://www.bpb.de/themen/SMG6CJ,0,0,Die_Vertreibung_der_Deutschen_aus_den_Gebieten_jenseits_von_Oder_und_Nei%DFe.html http://www.wdr.de/tv/nachtkulturundgeschichtszeit/gzvertriebenen_2.html
( 213.70.74.165 15:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
"millions were killed on their way to the west" is an example of German home-made history. The total number of German victims wasn't "millions" and many of the victims died of infections. The German government was responsible for the too late and poorly organised evacuation ("Flucht").
The Germans created many myths about the expulsion. Now a German demands academic treatment. Yes, yes, yes! But the academic treatment has been done. There are thousands of pages of published documents.
"Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be." Exactly and you are one of the ill informed and emotional posters. Xx236 12:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
restored the deleted contri
ackoz
14:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
What about 213? He has been attacking me since May the 19. Xx236 15:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Which personal attacks are you talking about, Xx236? Please quote. ( 213.70.74.165 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
I do not know whether he is a little man nor is the flag big, but he was definitively angry, and compared with calling me a "poor" and "ill informed" "idiot" who dares to "whine" for German victims my response was rather civil. Anyway, you are absolutely right that personal attacks do not help us. ( 213.70.74.165 16:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Ugh. Thanks for that, I think. I feel like I wanted a drink of water and got hit by a fire hose.
It's all very interesting but it has made a mess of the section. I don't have time to trim it down today. Maybe you can take a whack at it. That information belongs somewhere but not all in that section. Maybe not all in this article. Maybe it's an article unto itself if one doesn't already exist.
The critical information is the bit about the 60% vote in the 1935 elections. We should, perhaps, focus on that for now.
-- Richard 16:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
23:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Current text of the article includes this sentence "After the war, Germany's and Austria-Hungary's loss of territory and the rise of communism in the Soviet Union meant that more Germans than ever constituted sizable minorities in various countries."
I think I inserted the sentence but I don't remember the phrase "and the rise of communism in the Soviet Union". I don't understand what the rise of communism has to do with their being more German minorities between the two World Wars. Can someone explain this to me?
-- Richard 06:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that there is no Polish section in the "Chronicle of the Expulsion". This is singularly odd since we spend a fair amount of time talking about Poland in the background and reasons sections. We need some text describing the actual events of the expulsions in Poland similar to what we have for Czech Republic and Slovakia.
-- Richard 06:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
A known participant has removed my text:
"millions were killed on their way to the west" is an example of German home-made history. The total number of German victims wasn't "millions" and many of the victims died of infections. The German government was responsible for the too late and poorly organised evacuation ("Flucht").
- - The Germans created many myths about the expulsion. Now a German demands academic treatment. Yes, yes, yes! But the academic treatment has been done. There are thousands of pages of published documents. - - "Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be." Exactly and you are one of the ill informed and emotional posters. - Xx236 12:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to start a revert war. The above text is based on many academic sources. Xx236 12:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe "orderly population transfer" is an oxymoron. I inserted the comparison to the Partition of India and somebody subsequently added the population transfer between Greece and Turkey which is fine by me especially because it provides a more European analog to the expulsions of Germans.
Here's my question: was the expulsion of Germans a more horrific episode than either of those two episodes? We say that, in all three cases, the populations being transferred suffered greatly. I'm sure there were rapes and murders in India although Gandhi probably helped to reduce those. How about between Greece and Turkey? Or when Poles moved out of Russia?
What I'm asking is: was the incidence of rape and murder higher in the case of the expulsions of Germans than in other similar population transfers? I know it may be hard to get at data on this but what I'm really asking is whether we generally believe that they are or are not.
I know Hindus and Muslims in India were attacked. Were Poles in transit from Russia to Poland attacked? Were Greeks and Turks in transit to their respective "mother countries" attacked?
This is important because it puts the expulsions in historical context and perspective. I'd like to hear what you guys think.
-- Richard 06:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There were different periods and places:
Some Germans travelled with their furniture (the Communists), others starved. De Zayas presents many crimes.
The same was true about Poles - some survived Ukrainian massacres, some returned from Soviet camps, some travelled with their cows and/or furniture, some starved after leaving the train in Poland. Many were robbed by Soviet guards.
Generally the fate of Poles was better than the one of Germans.
Many Germans select the Soviet crimes and extrapolate them on any place and time. Xx236 09:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Dear Richard,
in response to your call for a compromise concerning the revert war on the Expulsion of Germans after World War II-side, I would like to say the following:
I am not willing to participate in the “Selbstschutz”-discussion on the qouted side any more. Regardless whether the whole Selbstschutz-issue could have been a sound reason for the expulsion (by the way, it would not have been), it was simply not the reason. The reason was that Stalin and Truman decided in Potsdam to shift Poland to the west in order to secure that the Soviet Union could permanently keep the territories occupied by the Red Army in the course of the execution of the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty in 1939. In order to clear room for the Polish refugees and to prevent future ethnic violence in the new western parts of Poland/former eastern parts of Germany, the German population had been expelled.
However taking a look at the main side, the west-shift of Poland is mentioned in a little, tiny paragraph hidden somewhere in the middle part of the page whereas the article about German minority organisations grows and grows. I do not mind writing about Selbstschutz, Werwolf, etc. but please not on this page as there is no significant connex (it was not the reason and it would not even have been a proper reason). Neither do I want to relativise or conceal anything what happened before and during WWII but it makes me sad and angry how the topic is handled here.
Millions were expelled from their homes where their ancestors had lived partly for more than 600 years, and millions were killed on their way to the west, mostly women, children and old men, driven like cattle, fucked, burned and robbed. This is a cheerless part of European history and would have deserved a better, ie more objective and academic treatment. Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be.
Anyway, I am tired of fighting against windmills and hence abstain from deleting the weird Selbstschutz section from now on. I wish you guys a lot of fun with your homemade-history on this page in the future (“Wo rohe Kräfte sinnlos walten, da kann sich kein Gebild gestalten”, Friedrich Schiller).
Best regards (213.70.74.164 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Just to bring the discussion about the figures to an end:
it had been approx. 2 million German casulties, please refer to the attached 55 (!) sources (ps angry man and Xx236: I know, all 55 sources are lying, faked, completely wrong, biased, falsified, sponsored by Nazi organisations, bla, bla, bla...)
1 Vgl. dazu Gerhard Reichling, Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen. 2 Teile, Bonn 1986/89.
Andere Autoren nehmen noch höhere Zahlen an, so Heinz Nawratil, Die deutschen Nachkriegsverluste unter Vertriebenen, Gefangenen, Verschleppten, München - Berlin 1987, S. 27-32.
2 Vgl. Lutz Niethammer, Diesseits des "Floating Gap". Das kollektive Gedächtnis von Identität im wissenschaftlichen Diskurs, in: Kerstin Platt/Mileran Dabag (Hrsg.), Generation und Gedächtnis. Erinnerungen und kollektive Identitäten, Opladen 1985, S. 25-50. Vgl. auch die Einleitung der Herausgeberinnen, ebd., S. 25-50.
3 Hans-Georg Lehmann, Der Oder-Neiße-Konflikt, München 1979, S. 63.
4 Michael Schwartz, Vertreibung und Vergangenheitspolitik. Ein Versuch über geteilte deutsche Nachkriegsidentitäten, in: Deutschland Archiv, 30 (1997), S. 177-195, hier S. 179.
5 Vgl. Hermann Weiss, Die Organisationen der Vertriebenen und ihre Presse, in: Wolfgang Benz (Hrsg.), Die Vertreibung der Deutschen aus dem Osten. Ursachen, Ereignisse, Folgen, Frankfurt/M. 1985, S. 193-208; Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, Vertriebene, in: Werner Weidenfeld/Karl-Rudolf Korte (Hrsg.), Handwörterbuch der deutschen Einheit, Frankfurt/M. 1992, S. 732-741, hier S. 736.
6 Zum BHE vgl. Franz Neumann, Der Block der Heimatvertriebenen und Entrechteten 1950-1960, Meisenheim am Glan 1968.
7 Vgl. Josef Foschepoth, Potsdam und danach. Die Westmächte, Adenauer und die Vertriebenen, in: W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 70-90, hier insbes. S. 86 ff.
8 A. M. de Zayas (Anm. 5), S. 737. Vgl. ferner Karl Dietrich Erdmann, Die Zeit der Weltkriege (Gebhardt, Handbuch der Deutschen Geschichte, Bd. IV), Stuttgart 1976, S. 681.
9 Wilhelm Pieck, Reden und Aufsätze. Auswahl aus den Jahren 1908 bis 1950, Bd. 2, Berlin 1954, S. 555.
10 Walter Dirks/Eugen Kogon, Verhängnis und Hoffnung im Osten. Das Deutsch-Polnische Problem, in: Frankfurter Hefte, 2 (1947), S. 470-487. Wieder abgedruckt (und danach zitiert) bei W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 125-142. 11 Ebd., S. 127.
12 Ebd., S. 130.
13 Vgl. Christoph Klessmann (Hrsg.), Nicht nur Hitlers Krieg. Der Zweite Weltkrieg und die Deutschen, Düsseldorf 1989.
14 Vgl. Hellmuth Auerbach, Literatur zum Thema. Ein kritischer Überblick, in: W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 219-231, hier S. 219.
15 Vgl. Dokumentation der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Ostmitteleuropa. In Verbindung mit Adolf Distelkamp, Rudolf Laun, Peter Rassow, Hans Rothfels (und ab Bd. I/3 auch Werner Conze) bearbeitet von Theodor Schieder, hrsg. vom Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, 1954-1963; nachgedruckt München 1984. Hier wird nach der Originalausgabe zitiert.
16 Zur Entstehung des Projektes siehe Mathias Beer, Im Spannungsfeld von Politik und Zeitgeschichte. Das Großforschungsprojekt Dokumentation der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Ost-Mitteleuropa, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 46 (1998), S. 345-389.
17 Dokumentation, Vorwort zu Bd. I (Anm. 15), S. I-VII, hier S. I.
18 Ebd., S. VI f.
19 Vgl. Götz Aly, Macht, Geist, Wahn. Kontinuitäten deutschen Denkens, Berlin 1997; ders./Susanne Heim, Vordenker der Vernichtung. Auschwitz und die deutschen Pläne für eine neue europäische Ordnung, Hamburg 1991; Angelika Ebbinghaus/Karl-Heinz Roth, Vorläufer des ‘Generalplans Ost’. Eine Dokumentation über Theodor Schieders Polendenkschrift vom 7. Oktober 1939, in: 1999. Zeitschrift für Sozialgeschichte des 20. und 21. Jahrhunderts, (1992) 1, S. 62-95. Vgl. auch Peter Schöttler (Hrsg.), Geschichte als Legitimationswissenschaft, Frankfurt/M. 1997; ders., Schuld der Historiker, in: Die Zeit, Nr. 14, 1997, S. 15.
20 M. Beer (Anm. 16), S. 389.
21 Dokumentation, Vorwort zu Bd. I (Anm. 15), S. VII.
22 Vgl. Martin Broszat, Massendokumentation als Methode zeitgeschichtlicher Forschung, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 2 (1954), S. 202-213; Theodor Schieder, Die Vertreibung der Deutschen aus dem Osten als wissenschaftliches Problem, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 8 (1960), S. 1-16.
23 Hans Rothfels in seiner Vorbemerkung des Herausgebers zum Aufsatz von Theodor Schieder, ebd., S. 1.
24 Ebd., S. 2.
25 Vgl. Dokumentation (Anm. 15), Bd. I, Vorwort, S. 1.
26 Vgl. Edgar Günther Lass, Die Flucht. Ostpreußen 1944/45, Bad Nauheim 1964.
27 Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste. Bevölkerungsbilanzen für die deutschen Vertreibungsgebiete 1939/50, hrsg. vom Statistischen Bundesamt Wiesbaden, Stuttgart 1958.
28 Exemplarisch für die Tagebücher: Hans Graf Lehndorff, Ostpreußisches Tagebuch. Aufzeichnungen eines Arztes aus den Jahren 1945-1947, München 1961; Taschenbuchausgabe München 1967. Zur Darstellung der Kriegsgeschehnisse siehe Jürgen Thorwald, Es begann an der Weichsel, Stuttgart 1950; ders., Das Ende an der Elbe, Stuttgart 1950; Kurt Dieckert/Horst Grossmann, Der Kampf um Ostpreußen. Ein authentischer Dokumentationsbericht, München 1960; Hans von Ahlfen, Der Kampf um Schlesien. Ein authentischer Dokumentationsbericht, München 1961; Erich Murawski, Die Eroberung Pommerns durch die Rote Armee, Boppard am Rhein 1969.
29 Vgl. Martin Broszat, Nationalsozialistische Polenpolitik 1939-1945, Stuttgart 1961.
30 Vgl. Konrad Kwiet, Die NS-Zeit in der westdeutschen Forschung 1945-1961, in: Ernst Schulin (Hrsg.), Deutsche Geschichtswissenschaft nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg (1945-1965), München 1989, S. 181-198.
31 Von den 81 Abgeordneten, die sich im Bundestag 1965-1969 als "Heimatvertriebene" bezeichneten, gehörten 36 der CDU/CSU, 38 der SPD und 7 der FDP an (Heribert Knorr, Der parlamentarische Entscheidungsprozess während der Großen Koalition 1966 bis 1969. Struktur und Einfluss der Koalitionsfraktionen und ihr Verhältnis zur Regierung der Großen Koalition, Meisenheim am Glan 1975, S. 37).
32 Vgl. Vorstand der Sozialdemokratischen Partei Deutschlands (Hrsg.), Parteitag der Sozialdemokratischen Partei Deutschlands vom 17. bis 21. März 1968 in Nürnberg. Protokoll der Verhandlungen, Bonn o. J., S. 11 und 996.
33 Vgl. Bernd Faulenbach, NS-Interpretationen und Zeitklima. Zum Wandel in der Aufarbeitung der jüngsten Vergangenheit, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 22/87, S. 19-30; ders., Emanzipation von der deutschen Tradition? Geschichtsbewusstsein in den sechziger Jahren, in: Werner Weidenfeld (Hrsg.), Politische Kultur und deutsche Frage. Materialien zum Staats- und Nationalbewusstsein der Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Köln 1989, S. 73-92.
34 Vgl. u. a. Heinz Nawratil, Vertreibungsverbrechen an Deutschen. Tatbestand, Motive, Bewältigung, München 1982; Wilfried Ahrens, Verbrechen an Deutschen. Dokumente der Vertreibung, Rosenheim 1983; vgl. auch H. Auerbach (Anm. 14), S. 226.
35 Vgl. Winfried Schlau, Die Eingliederung in gesellschaftlicher Hinsicht, in: Hans Joachim von Merkatz (Hrsg.), Aus Trümmern werden Fundamente. Vertriebene-Flüchtlinge-Aussiedler - Drei Jahrzehnte Integration, Düsseldorf 1979, S. 151-162, insbes. S. 159 f. Vgl. ferner M. Schwartz (Anm. 4), S. 189.
36 Richard von Weizsäcker, Reden und Interviews, Bd. I, 1. Juli 1984-30. Juni 1985, Bonn 1986, S. 12.
37 Vgl. Marion Frantzioch, Die Vertriebenen. Hemmnisse und Wege der Integration, Berlin 1987; Rainer Schulze/Doris von der Brelie-Lewien/Helga Grebing (Hrsg.), Flüchtlinge und Vertriebene in der westdeutschen Nachkriegsgeschichte. Bilanzierung der Forschung und Perspektiven für die künftige Forschungsarbeit, Hildesheim 1987; Paul Erker, Revolution des Dorfes. Ländliche Bevölkerung zwischen Flüchtlingsstrom und landwirtschaftlichem Strukturwandel, in: Martin Broszat u. a. (Hrsg.), Von Stalingrad zur Währungsreform, München 1988, S. 367-425. Vgl. auch Michael Schwartz, Integration von Flüchtlingen im Nachkriegsdeutschland. Ein Forschungskolloquium des Institutes für Zeitgeschichte, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 44 (1996), S. 629-631; Sylvia Schraut/Thomas Grosser (Hrsg.), Die Flüchtlingsfrage in der Nachkriegsgesellschaft, Mannheim 1996. Siehe ferner H. J. von Merkatz (Anm. 35).
38 Andreas Hillgruber, Zweierlei Untergang. Die Zerschlagung des Deutschen Reiches und das Ende des europäischen Judentums, Berlin 1986, S. 12 f.
39 Vgl. Alfred Heuß, Versagen und Verhängnis. Vom Ruin deutscher Geschichte und ihres Verständnisses, Berlin 1984.
40 Vgl. ebd., S. 142.
41 Ebd., S. 208 f.
42 Vgl. Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, Die Anglo-Amerikaner und die Vertreibung der Deutschen. 7., erw. Aufl., Berlin 1988.
43 Vgl. W. Benz (Anm. 5).
44 Vgl. A. Hillgruber (Anm. 38). Zum Historikerstreit siehe "Historikerstreit". Die Dokumentation der Kontroverse um die Einzigartigkeit der nationalsozialistischen Judenvernichtung, München - Zürich 1987; Bernd Faulenbach, Die Bedeutung der NS-Vergangenheit für die Bundesrepublik. Zur politischen Dimension des "Historikerstreits", in: ders./Klaus Bölling, Geschichtsbewusstsein und historisch-politische Bildung in der Bundesrepublik, Düsseldorf 1988, S. 9-38.
45 A. Hillgruber (Anm. 38), S. 9.
46 Vgl. "Historikerstreit" (Anm. 44).
47 Vgl. Empfehlungen für die Schulbücher der Geschichte und Geographie in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und der Volksrepublik Polen, Schriftenreihe des Georg-Eckert- Institutes für internationale Schulbuchforschung, Bd. 22/XV., erweiterte Neuaufl. Braunschweig 1995; Wolfgang Jacobmeyer (Hrsg.), Die deutsch-polnischen Schulbuchempfehlungen in der öffentlichen Diskussion der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Eine Dokumentation, Braunschweig 1979. Stellungnahmen aus dem Umfeld der Vertriebenen insbesondere in: Materialien zu deutsch-polnischen Schulbuchempfehlungen. Eine Dokumentation kritischer Stellungnahmen, Bonn 1980.
48 Helga Grebing hat die Frage aufgeworfen, ob nicht das Nichtakzeptieren der Leidensgeschichte der Vertriebenen "ein weiteres Kapitel der Unfähigkeit der Deutschen (sei), Trauerarbeit zu leisten: wie gegenüber den Opfern des Nationalsozialismus nun auch gegenüber den Opfern seiner Folgen", in: R. Schulze/D. v. d. Brelie-Lewien/H. Grebing (Anm. 37), S. 2.
49 Karlheinz Lau, Verlieren wir das historische Ostdeutschland aus dem Geschichtsbild?, in: Deutschland Archiv, 28 (1995), S. 633-640.
50 Vgl. Herbert Ammon, Stiefkind der Zunft. Die deutsche Zeitgeschichtsforschung hat sich für das Thema Vertreibung wenig interessiert, in: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung vom 5. September 1997, S. 10; Alfred Theisen, Die Vertreibung der Deutschen. Ein unbewältigtes Kapitel europäischer Zeitgeschichte, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 7-8/95, S. 20-33.
51 Verlage dieser Art sind der Laumann-Verlag Dülmen, der Marx-Verlag in Leimen und der Rautenberg-Verlag in Leer. Im Laufe der Jahre haben alle Städte und Regionen im Osten ihre (Laien-)Historiker gefunden, die über ihre Stadt oder Region Bücher und Aufsätze veröffentlichten.
52 Vgl. Günter Grass, Im Krebsgang. Eine Novelle, Göttingen 2002; K. Erich Franzen, Die Vertriebenen. Hitlers letzte Opfer, München 2001 (Buch zur ARD-Fernsehserie); Spiegel-Serie "Die Flucht", Nr. 13 ff., 2002.
53 Vgl. Detlev Brandes, Der Weg zur Vertreibung 1938-1945. Pläne und Entscheidungen zum "Transfer" der Deutschen aus Polen und der Tschechoslowakei, München 2001; Philipp Ther, Deutsche und polnische Vertriebene. Gesellschaft und Vertriebenenpolitik in der SBZ/DDR und in Polen 1945-1956, Göttingen 1999; Manfred Zeidler, Kriegsende im Osten. Die Rote Armee und die Besetzung Deutschlands östlich von Oder und Neiße 1944/45, München 1996.
54 Peter Steinbach, Die Vergegenwärtigung von Vergangenem. Zum Spannungsverhältnis zwischen individueller Erinnerung und öffentlichem Gedenken, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 3-4/97, S. 3-13, hier S. 4.
55 Vgl. Bernd Faulenbach, Von der nationalen zur universalen Erinnerungskultur?, in: Jahrbuch Arbeit, Bildung, Kultur 19/20 (2001/02), S. 225-236.
( 213.70.74.164 10:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC))
How many people
If you have the de Zayas book, or access to the document "Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen.", you could provide some numbers. I will search for the numbers in Czech sources. Then, we can compare them and find the differences.
Wikipedia should be (is not) an encyclopedia. Not a place to whine about poor German women and children.
ackoz
12:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There happened many processes:
the deportation of prisoners (including German people) - so called Death Marches, e.g. from Auschwitz,
The best way to get two millions of victims is to mix everything and to call it "Expulsion". If we are discussing the expulsion literally - there weren't 2 million victims. Even the extremely biased Center against Expulsions doesn't give such numbers: http://www.z-g-v.de/aktuelles/?id=58.
I don't like the continous ad-personam attacks. There are many German sources giving much lower estimates. I don't see any reason to accuse me of anything, because I stay in the limits of an academic discussions. The article quotes:
Are the authors lying?
It's standard that any eyewitnesses overestimate the numbers of victims. Some Germans confirmed that more than 2 millions died in Auschwitz, the last estimates give about 1 million.
Xx236 14:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Pommern - yes, Maehren - yes. Russland-deutsche ...
Germans in Russia may be better. Mitteldeutschland ..
Middle Germany.
My question is how to include the POV Z-G-V intentionaly uses old and inaccurate estimatates? This claim is based on "Opinion of the Commission on the losses connected with the transfer" by joint Czech-German commission of historians (verbatim quote in Facing history, chapter VI. p. 230-232 (Victims ...)), which suggests in case of Czecholslovakia maximum number of victims is ~30000 and numbers like 220000 should not be used. -- Wikimol 09:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, as a thought experiment, consider these extreme positions:
1) The German minorities were fully in favor of the Nazis, rejoiced when they marched into Czechoslovakia and Poland, collaborated in targeting Poles and Czechs for extermination and therefore, having gambled on the Nazis and lost, deserved everything they got.
2) The German minorities were innocent pawns in a great geopolitical game and didn't deserve to be thrown off their ancestral homeland.
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
1) The Poles were evil in expelling the German minorities for their "sins" and should have just left the Germans to live side-by-side with them as they had for centuries
2) The Poles were 100% justified in their actions towards the Germans and the Germans deserved everything they got.
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
1) The Poles did nothing but stand by passively and watch as Germans marched out of Poland and into Germany
2) The Poles exploited every chance to take advantage of the departing Germans and robbed, raped and murdered them at every opporunity
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
One problem is that we try to talk about groups of individuals as if they were one monolithic group. The Germans did this, the Poles did that. No, they didn't. Individual Germans did things. Individual Poles did things. Governments did things. The "Poles" can't do anything, they're individuals not a monolithic group. Same goes for the Germans.
Another reason we keep having these edit wars is we keep trying to push a POV version of the truth which is closer to one extreme or the other. I think it is wiser to say that there are valid perspectives that run the gamut from one extreme to another. It is not for us to say where exactly the truth lies. No one may ever know and there is more than one truth depending on which town you were in and at which time.
My vision for this article is that we present multiple truths and let the reader decide for himself/herself.
-- Richard 20:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
So, something I've been wondering about...
In any mixed community, there are intermarriages. Thus, one problem with ethnic cleansing is that the ethnic lines are not always clear. Didn't Germans marry Poles? What did these families do? Was it the case that a woman would marry into another ethnic group and learn the language of the other group? "I was Pole but now I speak German" "I was a German but now I speak Polish"
"My Dad is German, my Mom is Polish, we speak both languages. I'm German." or... "My Dad is Polish, my Mom is German, I'm Polish." or... "I'm German AND I'm Polish". Americans have this problem all the time except most of them only speak English. Didn't Europeans have this problem 60 years ago?
How is it we talk about "Germans" and "Poles" as if there are clear lines dividing the ethnic groups?
-- Richard 20:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
How is it we talk about "Germans" and "Poles" as if there are clear lines dividing the ethnic groups?
Because German government made itself several classification lists on which it marked who was Pole and who was German, during the war. Some of those classified as Germans (they were several groups of German available) had a chance to rehabilite themselfs if they proved they were forced, or worked for Polish underground etc.
--
Molobo
16:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Good point - a memeber of family of the prominent Polish politician Donald Tusk was on "Wilhelm Gustloff". Does it make Tusk a German? Many Upper Silesians and Kashubs were between the Poles and the Germans.
Peter Glotz' mother was Czech.
Xx236 11:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Some time ago, somebody (I think it was 213) kept substituting Nationalsocialist for Nazi. We reverted those edits. However, in the spirit of cooperation and discussion, I would like to understand what the point of those edits was. From an American standpoint, I have no understanding of why anyone would prefer using the term "Nationalsocialist" instead of "Nazi". In America, we understand "Nazi" and use that almost exclusively to refer to Hitler's party. It is only with some effort that we come to understand "Nationalsocialist" to mean the same thing.
Or, is it the same thing? Is 213 or whoever was making those edits trying to make a point that we just didn't grasp?
Please help me understand what that little revert war was all about.
-- Richard 06:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This article makes no reference to the fact that most of the Germans expelled were expelled from what was then Germany - i.e. East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia. Perhaps this information is going to be added to the 'Poland' section, although these parts of Eastern Germany were not formally annexed to Poland - indeed, the People's Republic of Poland did not yet exist - when most of the expulsions occurred. I notice that the History of Poland articles basically assert that Lwow was stolen from Poland, but imply that Stettin was liberated from a temporary Nazi occupation... hmm... so we'll see what our Polish historians come up with, shall we? Colonel Mustard 14:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR. Why on earth should Selbstschutz be relevant to the expulsion of Germans? Is there any source on the whole wide web that categorises it as reason or are we inventing some reasons? Why can't the author, who usually can come up with anything on the net, not provide anything tangible here? Selbstschutz is so well-known and relevant that — quite distinct from Wehrwolf, which was created in the early days of Wikipedia — Selbstschutz was only created in late 2005. Yes, I do think there's reason to doubt that this is the notable part of background. (while the rest is a black and white summary of the background related to Poland... actually just a black summary.)
"As Selbstschutz counted 82,000 members out of 741,000 Germans living in Poland, over 10 % of Germans living in Poland were members of this organisation(this percentage would increase if one would count only fit male members of German community, who were able to enlist in Selbstschutz, rather then whole population)."
Tell me when you've found a source you can translate for your edits, Molobo, and not only for this paragraph. I'm growing tired of your attitude to delete original research opposed to your views and at the same time some added in favour of yours. You should have familiarised yourself with the policy by now. And don't you criticise abbreviations like ('u' = 'you', '2' = 'to' or 'two' and 'ur' = 'your' ) used to have enough space in the edit summary.
All in all, if the 'introduction' is becoming too long, it should be put into another article and summarized here. Sciurinæ 19:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Why on earth should Selbstschutz be relevant to the expulsion of Germans? Is there any source on the whole wide web that categorises it as reason or are we inventing some reasons? According to Doctor Wardzynska who works in IPN Institute yes it was a reason and researches the issues of population movements in the war period and yes it was one of the issues. -- Molobo 20:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC) Why can't the author, who usually can come up with anything on the net, not provide anything tangible here? I have already provided the neccessary source.Actually two even, but as Polish one was more informative, I deleted German source. -- Molobo 20:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm putting this table here because I am replacing it with the table from the Centre against Expulsions which I find more understandable. I am open to the idea that the Centre against Expulsions table may have inflated figures. If anyone wants to put a sourced challenge to those figures, I will not object. I just have trouble understanding the point that the table below is trying to make. I think the table from the Centre against Expulsions is much more to the point.
German Expellee Population 1939-50 | |||
---|---|---|---|
Description | Germany | Eastern Europe | Total |
Population in 1939 | 9,500,000 | 7,100,000 | 16,600,000 |
Wartime Transfers In | 500,000 | 0 | 500,000 |
Natural Increase 1939-1950 | 600,000 | 400,000 | 1,000,000 |
Military Losses 1939-45 | 900,000 | 550,000 | 1,450,000 |
Civilian Losses | 800,000 | 500,000 | 1,300,000 |
Remaining in East Europe | 1,450,000 | 1,500,000 | 2,950,000 |
Expellee Population 1950 | 7,450,000 | 4,950,000 | 12,400,000 |
Notes:
Germany-The pre-war eastern German provinces that became Polish in 1945 and
Kaliningrad region that became Soviet
Eastern Europe- Includes ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Danzig, the Baltic nations, Hungary, Romania and Yugoslavia. Does not include the USSR.
Population in 1939- Includes bilinguals who were listed as Germans.
Military Losses 1939-45 Research by R. Overmans has increased this total by 360,000 thus reducing civilian losses.
Wartime Transfers In -Wartime evacuation of persons from western Germany.
Civilian Losses -Losses primarily during military campaign in 1945, also includes 270,000 dead in the USSR after being deported as laborers. This table reflects the research of Reichling and Overmans that has adjusted the estimate of civilian deaths downward from the 1958 German government estimate of 2.1 million dead.
Remaining in East Europe-Primarily bilinguals except in the case of Romania. Research by G. Reichling has increased this total by 230,000 thus reducing civilian losses
Sources:
Gerhard Reichling. Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen. Bonn 1986
ISBN
3-88557-046-7.
Rűdiger Overmans. Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Oldenbourg 2000.
ISBN
3-486-56531-1
Fritz Peter Habel Dokumente zur Sudetenfrage Langen Müller, Munich 2003,
ISBN
3-7844-2691-3.
Alfred de Zayas Die Nemesis von Potsdam Herbig, Munich 2005.
ISBN
3-7766-2454-X. Newest statistical survey pp. 32-34.
German Expellee Population 1939-50 | |||
---|---|---|---|
Description | Germany | Eastern Europe | Total |
Expellee Population 1950 | 7,450,000 | 4,950,000 | 12,400,000 |
-Population in 1939 | -9,500,000 | -7,100,000 | -16,600,000 |
-Wartime Transfers In | -500,000 | 0 | -500,000 |
-Natural Increase 1939-1950 | -600,000 | -400,000 | -1,000,000 |
-Military Losses 1939-45 | -900,000 | -550,000 | -1,450,000 |
-Remaining in East Europe | -1,450,000 | -1,500,000 | -2,950,000 |
=Number of vicitms | 800,000 | 500,000 | 1,300,000 |
Please don't use the table from Center, it presents very biased and inaccurate data. The responsible organisation was founded by a Nazi. We shouldn't promote organisations like that as objective sources of information. -- Molobo 12:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but using data from Center is beyond any acceptence. Please find another source. I can't accept using data the source provides as objective. -- Molobo 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
We should find some book about this - the Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen would be great. Richard - I cannot judge if the numbers are correct or not, but we should not use a source whose existence is opposed by 2 governments and disputed even in Germany. Moreover I have seen blatant disinformation on the webpage of the Centre already. However, we should keep the table as is now until we get something better.
ackoz
17:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the G-V-D table
-- Wikimol 20:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the "older table". Point I tried to make was
-- Wikimol 21:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Ad the 55 sources & the final number...
I would suggest
-- Wikimol 22:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Some discussions about the number of victims on axis forum:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1698&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6291&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
"
As also pointed out in the Spiegel article, the ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia have been the only ones so far to prepare a detailed documentation of their losses during the war and postwar period, resulting in a figure half the estimate of the Federal Statistics Bureau. According to another article published in the same feature, a total of 48,447 ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia lost their lives to privation, disease and violence between 1944 and 1948.
"
That's why I think the previous estimates were too high. If the only detailed study halved the earlier estimated death numbers, it is highly probably that other numbers are too high too. Szopen 07:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Whole quote, which is quote interesting:
"That this order of magnitude must be too high became apparent at the time already from lists of missing civilians; only about one-tenth – ca. 200,000 people – were being searched by relatives and friends. So far however only the Danube Svabians [ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia, translators’ note] made the effort to individually document all victims – and halved the estimates of the Federal Statistics Bureau for their region."
"There was indeed an estimate made by the German Federal Statistics Bureau in the late 1950's that over two million ethnic Germans had perished during the flight from the Red Army at the end of the war and the postwar expulsions from Germany's former Eastern territories and various countries of Eastern Europe, mainly Poland and Czechoslovakia."
"This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being well above the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, for example by Rüdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):"
"The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the events historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches Bundesamt), the refugees’ associations and the clerical search service did a lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quantitatively assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The result can be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been killed during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respective territories who had died during military service."
"These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result not of a counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a population balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of the expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must therefore be assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events. In the last years, however, these statements have been increasingly questioned, as the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number of victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is also an unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could always be said, however, that the balance didn’t say that the death of these people had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."
"As also pointed out in the Spiegel article, the ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia have been the only ones so far to prepare a detailed documentation of their losses during the war and postwar period, resulting in a figure half the estimate of the Federal Statistics Bureau. According to another article published in the same feature, a total of 48,447 ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia lost their lives to privation, disease and violence between 1944 and 1948"
End of quote from forum.axis Szopen 07:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It's 64kb which is not terribly long but it is longer than the recommended 30-50 kb. We could try to trim it but I was wondering how people feel about this idea: Why not move the "Legacy of the Expulsions" to a separate article? I'm not sure what the title would be but perhaps "German Minorities in Eastern Europe".
Thoughts?
-- Richard 08:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the tag. I already provided you with the name of a book Der 'Volksdeutsche Selbstschutz' in Polen 1939/40 von Christian Jansen, Arno Weckbecker.. As both are German authors and university teachers, I would hesitate to claim that Molobo is doing some original research about Selbstschutz here. Your main objection (Sciurinae) was that no internet sources mentions Selbstschutz as important to the prewar nationality struggle background. I would say, that if there are historians who write books of this topic, we shouldn't consider it irrelevant.
ackoz
17:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The book has been reviewed http://www.ikgn.de/zeitschrift_nordost-archiv.ausgabe.1997.02.htm#rezensionen
Xx236 08:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"Expelled by" column ignores that:
Xx236 10:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I finally focused on what this table is and how it was constructed.
I now believe this table is based on unacceptable original research. Here's my argument:
Immediately above the table, the text says
Four of the above sources are mentioned as sources for the table (Reichling, Overmans, Habel and de Zayas). However, these sources differ in their estimates of lives lost. Specifically, Overmans believes it was 1,100,000 whereas the others believe it was over 2 million.
The notes for the table indicate that Overmans estimate was used to adjust the numbers in the table downward. As a result, you have a set of numbers that none of the sources would agree to. This is most easily understood by looking at the "Civilian losses" row. The total is 1.3 million which is not a number that any of the four sources would agree to.
I believe this is a good example of how easy it is to slip into original research. One or more of the Wikipedia editors built this table as a composite of the research done by the four sources. This would have been marginally OR if every number in the table could be sourced to a specific source. (An example would be numbers for Poland from one source, numbers for Czechoslovakia from another source.)
However, when you start modifying numbers by using one source to revise the numbers of another source, you are definitely in the realm of OR.
The problem is that you have no guarantee that any source would agree that the methodology used to apply Overmans estimate to come up with 1.3 million would be accepted by any reliable source. Three of the sources would say "Nein. 2 million +". Overmans would say "Nein. 1.1 million". So, who can you cite that would support "1.3 million"? Nobody. That makes it OR.
A better way to present this information is to find a set of numbers that one source (Reichling, Habel or de Zayas) presents and then present Overmans adjustments as a separate idea in a follow-on paragraph. It may be reasonable to blend Reichling, Habel and de Zayas in one table IF the numbers are close. The text of the article say the Habel and de Zayas estimate "well over 2 million". I don't know what "well over" means. Are we saying 2.1 million or 2.3 million? If it's 2.1 million, their numbers could be blended with Reichling's numbers. If it's 2.3 million, then it's debatable whether their numbers are effectively the same as Reichling's or are substantially different.
However, it's not obvious why we would need to blend the three sources. If they are in substantial agreement, it should be sufficient to pick one and say that the other two are in substantial agreement.
If there is a consensus among Wikipedia editors that my analysis above is correct, then we will need someone to fix the table according to the points made above.
-- Richard 12:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This is from the Axis History Forum. Thanks to User:Szopen for providing the link to the forum. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1698&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
The Statistisches Bundesamt of West Germany prepared a detailed account of these horrors in 1958, the key data of which can be found in Gunnar Heinsohn's Lexikon der Völkermorde, published in 1998 by the Rowohlt Taschenbuch Verlag in Reinbek by Hamburg. They are reproduced hereafter:
Baltic Countries and Memel Territory
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 256,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 256,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 66,000
Yugoslavia
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 550,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 523,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 135,000
German Eastern territories (East Prussia, East Pomerania, East Brandenburg, Silesia, Danzig)
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 10,000,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 7,400,000
Thereof killed during flight or expulsion: 1,225,000
Poland
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 1,400,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 675,000
Thereof killed during flight or expulsion: 263,000
Romania
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 785,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 347,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 101,000
Checoslovaquia
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 3,274,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 2,921,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 238,000
Hungary
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 597,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 259,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 53,000
Total German Eastern territories and Eastern Europe
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 16,862,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 12,381,000
Thereof killed during flight or expulsion: 2,081,000
These figures refer to the postwar period 1945-1950. During the war itself, according to Heinsohn's "Lexikon", ca. 1.1 million ethnic Germans from the above mentioned territories lost their lives, as members of the German armed forces, through the outrages of and on the flight from the conquering Red Army or through allied bombing. According a statement by the Bundesminister für Vertriebene in 1962, quoted by Heinsohn, there were 128,000 refugees from the Eastern territories among those killed by allied bombing in Germany.
-- Richard 12:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This is also from the Axis History Forum.
Numbers quoted from Richard Overy "Historical Atlas of the Third Reich"
a-Pre-war population b-German war losses (includes losses during expulsion) c-german population by 1950 still in the territory d-Settled in FRG e-Settled in GDR f-Settled in Austria
Baltic States: a-249500 b-65600 c-15000 d-109900 e-56900
Dantzig: a-380000 b-111900 c-4000 d-230200 e-60600
Poland(pre-1939 frontiers): a-1371000 b-293000 c-431000 d-419600 e-268400
Czechoslovakia: a-3477000 b-446600 c-250000 d-1917800 e-1082000
Hungary: a-623000 b-89000 c-270000 d-149500 f-103500
Romania: a-786000 b-136000 c-400000 d-178200 f-34800
Yugoslavia: a-536800 b-175800 c-82000 d-148000 f-149500
Eastern Germany:
Silesia: a-4576500 b-727100 c-870000 d-2090000 e-1138600
East Brandenburg: a-642000 b-214000 c-16000 d-152900 e-277100
East Pomerania: a-1883700 b-461900 c-55000 d-922800 e-541800
East Prussia: a-2473000 b-489400 c-160000 d-1375500 e-608900
As it can be seen these numbers are still incomplete. For instance it is well known that some people from Czechoslovakia took refuge in Austria. How many?
Some others (from all the territories) were settled in the USA, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Australia,.... Again Mr Overy doesn't tell us.
It is difficult to understand from Mr. Overy if Memel is included in East Prussia or in the Baltic States.
Some germans from the western territories of the USSR might have avoided the transfer to Siberia and Central Asia in 1941. How many of them took refuge in post-war Germany, Austria or the Americas? ( There were for instance 400000 germans in the Ukraine SSR prior to 1939)
A lot of POW settled in the countries where they had been retained. How many and in which countries he doesn't tell us.
Finally some germans civilians from Romania, Hungary and other territories were taken by the soviets during the period 1944/1950 to the USSR. It seems that Mr. Overy didn't took notice of this either.
-- Richard 13:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems their numbers are not more biased than the general bias of German numbers for most of the postwar period. I think it is adequate to call all the numbers into question by saying that some German historians (along with the Poles and the Czechs) believe the numbers are much lower.
We are now faced with the fact that these tables are huge and take up way too much space in the article.
I'm wondering if this level of detail is useful in the article. Somebody (I think it was Wikimol) suggested moving the debate over the numbers to an article about the historiography of the expulsions.
I didn't like the idea at the time but we may have to do something in order to manage the surfeit of numbers. At this point, having all these tables of numbers will more likely serve to confuse than to enlighten the reader.
It seems that, at the very least, we should choose between the Statistisches Bundesamt table and the Center Against Expulsions table. In truth, I like the Center Against Expulsions table better because it's more informative (modulo the issues about things like who was actually responsible for the expulsions which are noted below the table). On the other hand, there are people who would make charges of bias against the Center Against Expulsions. Similar charges can be made against the Statistisches Bundesamt but at least the underlying bias of their numbers is less politically suspect.
Where I want to go with this is to say that the preponderance of German historians believed the 2 million number for decades but recently there has been evidence from German, Polish and Czech historians suggesting the real number might be much lower. At this time, there is no clear consensus whether the real number is closer to 1.3 million or closer to 2 million.
Comments?
-- Richard 16:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)== Archives ==
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive1 holds early undated discussion (probably before 2004-03-23)
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive2 holds discussion posted here in 2004
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive3 holds discussion posted here in 2005
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive4 holds discussion posted here in Jan-Apr 2006
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive5 holds discussion posted here in May 2006
I think some editors of this page are somewhat one-sided in their opinions and do not accept any other opinions. This is very unfortunate and shows me their inability to be tolerant to other views. It seems a waste of time to even contribute if 2 or 3 people control this page like their opinion is G*d's word. I also do not agree with some assumptions made, like "most" or "the Germans" or "the Poles". It is very generalizing, has plenty of omissions and exchangable "most" and "the" words (very manipulating), and does not take into account individual experience and individual suffering. Other opinions are not respected here.
User:25 213.70.74.165 keeps deleting this section and I keep reverting his deletion. This sort of useless edit-warring gets us nowhere. The truth is... the section is in the article for far more time than it is out. Check the logs. This time, the text remained deleted for 4 1/2 hours. The last time, it was reverted almost immediately.
Thus, User:25 213.70.74.165 is only managing to make his/her point for a fraction of the time and the rest of the time the text he/she is objecting to stands. Thus, the repeated deletions serve only to annoy the rest of us and there is no chance that the text will remain deleted if he/she continues in this manner.
Furthermore, these repeated deletions without explanation constitute vandalism and could result in User:25 213.70.74.165 being blocked if someone were to appeal this to an administrator.
I prefer that we do not go down that road if we don't have to.
I got here via the RFC and I came to help, not to join in an edit war.
Can I suggest that we work towards a compromise that will get User:25 213.70.74.165's point across in a manner that is acceptable to all?
I do not completely understand User:25 213.70.74.165's point although I understand some of it.
Here are the possibilities:
1) Selbstschutz was terminated in 1940 and therefore could not be used as a reason for the expulsions
Response: The memory of past events can influence current events
2) Not many Germans were involved in Selbstschutz
Response: I'm willing to credit this if there's documentation. I've asked User:Molobo for English sources and though some have been provided, the most critical passage remains supported by a Polish website. Here's the text in question:
"Every tenth German living in Poland was a member of Selbstschutz and 25% of the German population belonged to Nazi-sponsored organizations aiding in the Nazi conquest of Poland."
I would guess that this assertion is something that User:25 213.70.74.165 would object to. I am confounded by the lack of an English translation but nonetheless, let's assume that the Polish source does actually document those numbers. It is incumbent on User:25 213.70.74.165 to find a source refuting the numbers. Does the Centre against Expulsions say nothing on this question?
3) Even if some Germans in Poland aided the Nazis, that was not a reason for expelling the entire population.
Response: There are two ways to read the above sentence. One is "very few people in Poland, especially in the Polish government thought about the aid given to the Nazis by Germans in Poland". I doubt that this statement is true but we could insert if if it were sourced.
The other way to read the above sentence is "the aid given to the Nazis was not a valid reason to expel the entire population."
I agree with this but it needs to be sourced.
I am out of time this morning. I need to get going. Let's all think of a way to defuse this controversy so as to get past the edit-warring. And, please, let's discuss here rather than engage in edit-warring.
Happy editing.
-- Richard 14:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Selbstschutz was terminated in 1940 and therefore could not be used as a reason for the expulsions This was irrelevent in the opinion of Poles. It was given as example of unwillngess of German minority to be loyal to Poland. I actually restricted myself to connected examples. If I would want to give more examples of such behaviour I could give information about German minority pushing for ethnic expulsion of Poles in WWI already. "Every tenth German living in Poland was a member of Selbstschutz and 25% of the German population belonged to Nazi-sponsored organizations aiding in the Nazi conquest of Poland." Well as to Selbstschutz-it had 81,000 or so members in Poland out of 741,000 Germans living in it.The actuall percentage is a bit higher as you see. And you have to remember that as Selbstschutz was made out of fit men, it didn't include women, children and elderly who compromised part of population also. If you would count only the male population from which those 81,000 that was recruted , you would get larger numbers in terms of support. But again I didn't do this this time.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Molobo ( talk • contribs)
Heh, I will try to translate the related parts as soon as possible. And you are right about the translation :) -- Molobo 00:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Since when did finding one source in a foreign language mean that it was verified or accurate? usually if one cannot find more then one source for information on such a controversial subject, it is pure conjecture and conspiracy theory (which I wouldnt put past Molobo seeing his previous links on other articles). and come on, it states Nazi-sponsored organizations, many different organizations were sponsored by the Nazis, the Red Cross was sponsored by Nazis as well as other humanitarian organizations, by the definition given, anyone working for the Red Cross was a Nazi collaborator. More sources need to be found that can verify this. this of course is not to mention that this is not some peer reviewed published article, but from a website, which can be created by anyone!
-- Jadger 02:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Source of 81,000 number [4], actually I made a mistake its 82,000. The source is on-line encyclopedia of PWN using Wielka Encyklopedia PWN as source . As to pre-war German population data from census [5] -- Molobo 10:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
According to a recent article by a Polish historian - Zamość expulsion eyewitness - all German adult male settlers wore black uniforms. I don't know the exact meaning of it, but they were members of a Nazi organization. Xx236 08:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Now, I mean German settlers in Zamość region 1942-1944. The local Poles called them Czarni (Blacks) because of the uniforms. Xx236 12:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't claim anything general about the Germans in Poland, I have given an example of tens of thousands of German settlers in Zamość region, who were hated by local Poles and had to leave in 1944. I believe that many Germans should have been allowed to stay in Communist Poland, but the ones who were expelled to Western Germany won. Xx236 15:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The main reason was Soviet leadership's (or Stalin's) opinion, especially the future of Germany. It's absurd to ignore the main reason and to include a so long discussion about secondary reasons. Stettin was annexed to Poland, probably because the SU wanted to control the harbor.
In Poland the expulsion was generally a state policy. Local authorities wanted to keep many German workers and were pressed from above to deport them. The state policy was imposed by or at least consulted with Moscow.
Xx236 08:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I can source this. -- Molobo 10:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oder-Neisse line contains some info, but it does not translate Stalin's language into plain English. Xx236 12:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not willing to participate in the “Selbstschutz”-discussion any more. Regardless whether the whole Selbstschutz-issue could have been a sound reason for the expulsion (by the way, it would not have been), it was simply not the reason. The reason was that Stalin and Truman decided in Potsdam to shift Poland to the west in order to secure that the Soviet Union could permanently keep the territories occupied by the Red Army in the course of the execution of the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty in 1939. In order to clear room for the Polish refugees and to prevent future ethnic violence in the new western parts of Poland/former eastern parts of Germany, the German population had been expelled.
However taking a look at the main side, the west-shift of Poland is mentioned in a little, tiny paragraph hidden somewhere in the middle part of the page whereas the article about German minority organisations grows and grows. I do not mind writing about Selbstschutz, Werwolf, etc. but please not on this page as there is no significant connex (it was not the reason and it would not even have been a proper reason). Neither do I want to relativise or conceal anything what happened before and during WWII but it makes me sad and angry how the topic is handled here.
Millions were expelled from their homes where their ancestors had lived partly for more than 600 years, and millions were killed on their way to the west, mostly women, children and old men, driven like cattle, fucked, burned and robbed. This is a cheerless part of European history and would have deserved a better, ie more objective and academic treatment. Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be.
Anyway, I am tired of fighting against windmills and hence abstain from deleting the weird Selbstschutz section from now on. I wish you guys a lot of fun with your homemade-history on this page in the future (“Wo rohe Kräfte sinnlos walten, da kann sich kein Gebild gestalten”, Friedrich Schiller). ( 213.70.74.164 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Would you please discuss my text rather than removing in from this discussion? Xx236 14:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do I disconnect the expulsion from the war? I expressively connected it to the Potsdam Conferrence which is undoubtfully connected to WWII. And why I am not allowed to lament the victims, are they second-class victims? ( 213.70.74.164 15:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
I added the citation needed for the fact that most of the Germans in Czechoslovakia were Nazi supporters.
I also added some text from http://countrystudies.us/czech-republic/26.htm , it should be public domain and it demonstrates the situation in pre-WWII Czechoslovakia. But it is quite long. If anyone is able to shorten it, please do so, but these facts should be preserved:
ackoz
14:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OK .. 213 no discussion with you no more, all your changes will be reverted if you really removed something from the discussion. You are an idiot.
ackoz
14:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you angry, angry little man with your big, big flag... No discusions with you any more - that sounds indeed seductively! By the way, calling me an idiot convinces me of your intellectual helplessness and mental narrowness. As for the deleted comment, it would have been better for Xx236 "reputation" to keep it deleted. It had been undoubtfully millions of victims (approx. 2 million) and to claim it was the guilt of a non-existing German governmemt (formed in 1949!) that so many died between 1945 - 1948 as they did not organize their own expulsion is cynicism at its best. (
213.70.74.165
14:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
It's undoubtfully cynical to claim 2 million German victims after the war. Hundreds of thousands of Germans died during the "Flucht", see above "Flucht und Vertreibung", many perished in the Soviet Union (PoWs, miners). It didn't have any connection to any expulsion, it was a war and Communism. As for the expulsion: Even the biased German Wiki claims 60.000-80.000 victims of camps in Poland. I don't want to discuss this numbers now, the reader can compare 80 000 in Poland plus 30 000 in Czechoslovakia (according to German historian Peter Glotz) and alleged 2 millions. Xx236 15:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
For your information just two sources concerning the overall number of two millions victims (please note that the BPB and the WDR have an excellent international reputation):
http://www.bpb.de/themen/SMG6CJ,0,0,Die_Vertreibung_der_Deutschen_aus_den_Gebieten_jenseits_von_Oder_und_Nei%DFe.html http://www.wdr.de/tv/nachtkulturundgeschichtszeit/gzvertriebenen_2.html
( 213.70.74.165 15:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
"millions were killed on their way to the west" is an example of German home-made history. The total number of German victims wasn't "millions" and many of the victims died of infections. The German government was responsible for the too late and poorly organised evacuation ("Flucht").
The Germans created many myths about the expulsion. Now a German demands academic treatment. Yes, yes, yes! But the academic treatment has been done. There are thousands of pages of published documents.
"Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be." Exactly and you are one of the ill informed and emotional posters. Xx236 12:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
restored the deleted contri
ackoz
14:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
What about 213? He has been attacking me since May the 19. Xx236 15:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Which personal attacks are you talking about, Xx236? Please quote. ( 213.70.74.165 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
I do not know whether he is a little man nor is the flag big, but he was definitively angry, and compared with calling me a "poor" and "ill informed" "idiot" who dares to "whine" for German victims my response was rather civil. Anyway, you are absolutely right that personal attacks do not help us. ( 213.70.74.165 16:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Ugh. Thanks for that, I think. I feel like I wanted a drink of water and got hit by a fire hose.
It's all very interesting but it has made a mess of the section. I don't have time to trim it down today. Maybe you can take a whack at it. That information belongs somewhere but not all in that section. Maybe not all in this article. Maybe it's an article unto itself if one doesn't already exist.
The critical information is the bit about the 60% vote in the 1935 elections. We should, perhaps, focus on that for now.
-- Richard 16:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
23:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Current text of the article includes this sentence "After the war, Germany's and Austria-Hungary's loss of territory and the rise of communism in the Soviet Union meant that more Germans than ever constituted sizable minorities in various countries."
I think I inserted the sentence but I don't remember the phrase "and the rise of communism in the Soviet Union". I don't understand what the rise of communism has to do with their being more German minorities between the two World Wars. Can someone explain this to me?
-- Richard 06:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that there is no Polish section in the "Chronicle of the Expulsion". This is singularly odd since we spend a fair amount of time talking about Poland in the background and reasons sections. We need some text describing the actual events of the expulsions in Poland similar to what we have for Czech Republic and Slovakia.
-- Richard 06:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
A known participant has removed my text:
"millions were killed on their way to the west" is an example of German home-made history. The total number of German victims wasn't "millions" and many of the victims died of infections. The German government was responsible for the too late and poorly organised evacuation ("Flucht").
- - The Germans created many myths about the expulsion. Now a German demands academic treatment. Yes, yes, yes! But the academic treatment has been done. There are thousands of pages of published documents. - - "Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be." Exactly and you are one of the ill informed and emotional posters. - Xx236 12:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to start a revert war. The above text is based on many academic sources. Xx236 12:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe "orderly population transfer" is an oxymoron. I inserted the comparison to the Partition of India and somebody subsequently added the population transfer between Greece and Turkey which is fine by me especially because it provides a more European analog to the expulsions of Germans.
Here's my question: was the expulsion of Germans a more horrific episode than either of those two episodes? We say that, in all three cases, the populations being transferred suffered greatly. I'm sure there were rapes and murders in India although Gandhi probably helped to reduce those. How about between Greece and Turkey? Or when Poles moved out of Russia?
What I'm asking is: was the incidence of rape and murder higher in the case of the expulsions of Germans than in other similar population transfers? I know it may be hard to get at data on this but what I'm really asking is whether we generally believe that they are or are not.
I know Hindus and Muslims in India were attacked. Were Poles in transit from Russia to Poland attacked? Were Greeks and Turks in transit to their respective "mother countries" attacked?
This is important because it puts the expulsions in historical context and perspective. I'd like to hear what you guys think.
-- Richard 06:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There were different periods and places:
Some Germans travelled with their furniture (the Communists), others starved. De Zayas presents many crimes.
The same was true about Poles - some survived Ukrainian massacres, some returned from Soviet camps, some travelled with their cows and/or furniture, some starved after leaving the train in Poland. Many were robbed by Soviet guards.
Generally the fate of Poles was better than the one of Germans.
Many Germans select the Soviet crimes and extrapolate them on any place and time. Xx236 09:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Dear Richard,
in response to your call for a compromise concerning the revert war on the Expulsion of Germans after World War II-side, I would like to say the following:
I am not willing to participate in the “Selbstschutz”-discussion on the qouted side any more. Regardless whether the whole Selbstschutz-issue could have been a sound reason for the expulsion (by the way, it would not have been), it was simply not the reason. The reason was that Stalin and Truman decided in Potsdam to shift Poland to the west in order to secure that the Soviet Union could permanently keep the territories occupied by the Red Army in the course of the execution of the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty in 1939. In order to clear room for the Polish refugees and to prevent future ethnic violence in the new western parts of Poland/former eastern parts of Germany, the German population had been expelled.
However taking a look at the main side, the west-shift of Poland is mentioned in a little, tiny paragraph hidden somewhere in the middle part of the page whereas the article about German minority organisations grows and grows. I do not mind writing about Selbstschutz, Werwolf, etc. but please not on this page as there is no significant connex (it was not the reason and it would not even have been a proper reason). Neither do I want to relativise or conceal anything what happened before and during WWII but it makes me sad and angry how the topic is handled here.
Millions were expelled from their homes where their ancestors had lived partly for more than 600 years, and millions were killed on their way to the west, mostly women, children and old men, driven like cattle, fucked, burned and robbed. This is a cheerless part of European history and would have deserved a better, ie more objective and academic treatment. Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be.
Anyway, I am tired of fighting against windmills and hence abstain from deleting the weird Selbstschutz section from now on. I wish you guys a lot of fun with your homemade-history on this page in the future (“Wo rohe Kräfte sinnlos walten, da kann sich kein Gebild gestalten”, Friedrich Schiller).
Best regards (213.70.74.164 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Just to bring the discussion about the figures to an end:
it had been approx. 2 million German casulties, please refer to the attached 55 (!) sources (ps angry man and Xx236: I know, all 55 sources are lying, faked, completely wrong, biased, falsified, sponsored by Nazi organisations, bla, bla, bla...)
1 Vgl. dazu Gerhard Reichling, Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen. 2 Teile, Bonn 1986/89.
Andere Autoren nehmen noch höhere Zahlen an, so Heinz Nawratil, Die deutschen Nachkriegsverluste unter Vertriebenen, Gefangenen, Verschleppten, München - Berlin 1987, S. 27-32.
2 Vgl. Lutz Niethammer, Diesseits des "Floating Gap". Das kollektive Gedächtnis von Identität im wissenschaftlichen Diskurs, in: Kerstin Platt/Mileran Dabag (Hrsg.), Generation und Gedächtnis. Erinnerungen und kollektive Identitäten, Opladen 1985, S. 25-50. Vgl. auch die Einleitung der Herausgeberinnen, ebd., S. 25-50.
3 Hans-Georg Lehmann, Der Oder-Neiße-Konflikt, München 1979, S. 63.
4 Michael Schwartz, Vertreibung und Vergangenheitspolitik. Ein Versuch über geteilte deutsche Nachkriegsidentitäten, in: Deutschland Archiv, 30 (1997), S. 177-195, hier S. 179.
5 Vgl. Hermann Weiss, Die Organisationen der Vertriebenen und ihre Presse, in: Wolfgang Benz (Hrsg.), Die Vertreibung der Deutschen aus dem Osten. Ursachen, Ereignisse, Folgen, Frankfurt/M. 1985, S. 193-208; Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, Vertriebene, in: Werner Weidenfeld/Karl-Rudolf Korte (Hrsg.), Handwörterbuch der deutschen Einheit, Frankfurt/M. 1992, S. 732-741, hier S. 736.
6 Zum BHE vgl. Franz Neumann, Der Block der Heimatvertriebenen und Entrechteten 1950-1960, Meisenheim am Glan 1968.
7 Vgl. Josef Foschepoth, Potsdam und danach. Die Westmächte, Adenauer und die Vertriebenen, in: W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 70-90, hier insbes. S. 86 ff.
8 A. M. de Zayas (Anm. 5), S. 737. Vgl. ferner Karl Dietrich Erdmann, Die Zeit der Weltkriege (Gebhardt, Handbuch der Deutschen Geschichte, Bd. IV), Stuttgart 1976, S. 681.
9 Wilhelm Pieck, Reden und Aufsätze. Auswahl aus den Jahren 1908 bis 1950, Bd. 2, Berlin 1954, S. 555.
10 Walter Dirks/Eugen Kogon, Verhängnis und Hoffnung im Osten. Das Deutsch-Polnische Problem, in: Frankfurter Hefte, 2 (1947), S. 470-487. Wieder abgedruckt (und danach zitiert) bei W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 125-142. 11 Ebd., S. 127.
12 Ebd., S. 130.
13 Vgl. Christoph Klessmann (Hrsg.), Nicht nur Hitlers Krieg. Der Zweite Weltkrieg und die Deutschen, Düsseldorf 1989.
14 Vgl. Hellmuth Auerbach, Literatur zum Thema. Ein kritischer Überblick, in: W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 219-231, hier S. 219.
15 Vgl. Dokumentation der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Ostmitteleuropa. In Verbindung mit Adolf Distelkamp, Rudolf Laun, Peter Rassow, Hans Rothfels (und ab Bd. I/3 auch Werner Conze) bearbeitet von Theodor Schieder, hrsg. vom Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, 1954-1963; nachgedruckt München 1984. Hier wird nach der Originalausgabe zitiert.
16 Zur Entstehung des Projektes siehe Mathias Beer, Im Spannungsfeld von Politik und Zeitgeschichte. Das Großforschungsprojekt Dokumentation der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Ost-Mitteleuropa, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 46 (1998), S. 345-389.
17 Dokumentation, Vorwort zu Bd. I (Anm. 15), S. I-VII, hier S. I.
18 Ebd., S. VI f.
19 Vgl. Götz Aly, Macht, Geist, Wahn. Kontinuitäten deutschen Denkens, Berlin 1997; ders./Susanne Heim, Vordenker der Vernichtung. Auschwitz und die deutschen Pläne für eine neue europäische Ordnung, Hamburg 1991; Angelika Ebbinghaus/Karl-Heinz Roth, Vorläufer des ‘Generalplans Ost’. Eine Dokumentation über Theodor Schieders Polendenkschrift vom 7. Oktober 1939, in: 1999. Zeitschrift für Sozialgeschichte des 20. und 21. Jahrhunderts, (1992) 1, S. 62-95. Vgl. auch Peter Schöttler (Hrsg.), Geschichte als Legitimationswissenschaft, Frankfurt/M. 1997; ders., Schuld der Historiker, in: Die Zeit, Nr. 14, 1997, S. 15.
20 M. Beer (Anm. 16), S. 389.
21 Dokumentation, Vorwort zu Bd. I (Anm. 15), S. VII.
22 Vgl. Martin Broszat, Massendokumentation als Methode zeitgeschichtlicher Forschung, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 2 (1954), S. 202-213; Theodor Schieder, Die Vertreibung der Deutschen aus dem Osten als wissenschaftliches Problem, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 8 (1960), S. 1-16.
23 Hans Rothfels in seiner Vorbemerkung des Herausgebers zum Aufsatz von Theodor Schieder, ebd., S. 1.
24 Ebd., S. 2.
25 Vgl. Dokumentation (Anm. 15), Bd. I, Vorwort, S. 1.
26 Vgl. Edgar Günther Lass, Die Flucht. Ostpreußen 1944/45, Bad Nauheim 1964.
27 Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste. Bevölkerungsbilanzen für die deutschen Vertreibungsgebiete 1939/50, hrsg. vom Statistischen Bundesamt Wiesbaden, Stuttgart 1958.
28 Exemplarisch für die Tagebücher: Hans Graf Lehndorff, Ostpreußisches Tagebuch. Aufzeichnungen eines Arztes aus den Jahren 1945-1947, München 1961; Taschenbuchausgabe München 1967. Zur Darstellung der Kriegsgeschehnisse siehe Jürgen Thorwald, Es begann an der Weichsel, Stuttgart 1950; ders., Das Ende an der Elbe, Stuttgart 1950; Kurt Dieckert/Horst Grossmann, Der Kampf um Ostpreußen. Ein authentischer Dokumentationsbericht, München 1960; Hans von Ahlfen, Der Kampf um Schlesien. Ein authentischer Dokumentationsbericht, München 1961; Erich Murawski, Die Eroberung Pommerns durch die Rote Armee, Boppard am Rhein 1969.
29 Vgl. Martin Broszat, Nationalsozialistische Polenpolitik 1939-1945, Stuttgart 1961.
30 Vgl. Konrad Kwiet, Die NS-Zeit in der westdeutschen Forschung 1945-1961, in: Ernst Schulin (Hrsg.), Deutsche Geschichtswissenschaft nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg (1945-1965), München 1989, S. 181-198.
31 Von den 81 Abgeordneten, die sich im Bundestag 1965-1969 als "Heimatvertriebene" bezeichneten, gehörten 36 der CDU/CSU, 38 der SPD und 7 der FDP an (Heribert Knorr, Der parlamentarische Entscheidungsprozess während der Großen Koalition 1966 bis 1969. Struktur und Einfluss der Koalitionsfraktionen und ihr Verhältnis zur Regierung der Großen Koalition, Meisenheim am Glan 1975, S. 37).
32 Vgl. Vorstand der Sozialdemokratischen Partei Deutschlands (Hrsg.), Parteitag der Sozialdemokratischen Partei Deutschlands vom 17. bis 21. März 1968 in Nürnberg. Protokoll der Verhandlungen, Bonn o. J., S. 11 und 996.
33 Vgl. Bernd Faulenbach, NS-Interpretationen und Zeitklima. Zum Wandel in der Aufarbeitung der jüngsten Vergangenheit, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 22/87, S. 19-30; ders., Emanzipation von der deutschen Tradition? Geschichtsbewusstsein in den sechziger Jahren, in: Werner Weidenfeld (Hrsg.), Politische Kultur und deutsche Frage. Materialien zum Staats- und Nationalbewusstsein der Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Köln 1989, S. 73-92.
34 Vgl. u. a. Heinz Nawratil, Vertreibungsverbrechen an Deutschen. Tatbestand, Motive, Bewältigung, München 1982; Wilfried Ahrens, Verbrechen an Deutschen. Dokumente der Vertreibung, Rosenheim 1983; vgl. auch H. Auerbach (Anm. 14), S. 226.
35 Vgl. Winfried Schlau, Die Eingliederung in gesellschaftlicher Hinsicht, in: Hans Joachim von Merkatz (Hrsg.), Aus Trümmern werden Fundamente. Vertriebene-Flüchtlinge-Aussiedler - Drei Jahrzehnte Integration, Düsseldorf 1979, S. 151-162, insbes. S. 159 f. Vgl. ferner M. Schwartz (Anm. 4), S. 189.
36 Richard von Weizsäcker, Reden und Interviews, Bd. I, 1. Juli 1984-30. Juni 1985, Bonn 1986, S. 12.
37 Vgl. Marion Frantzioch, Die Vertriebenen. Hemmnisse und Wege der Integration, Berlin 1987; Rainer Schulze/Doris von der Brelie-Lewien/Helga Grebing (Hrsg.), Flüchtlinge und Vertriebene in der westdeutschen Nachkriegsgeschichte. Bilanzierung der Forschung und Perspektiven für die künftige Forschungsarbeit, Hildesheim 1987; Paul Erker, Revolution des Dorfes. Ländliche Bevölkerung zwischen Flüchtlingsstrom und landwirtschaftlichem Strukturwandel, in: Martin Broszat u. a. (Hrsg.), Von Stalingrad zur Währungsreform, München 1988, S. 367-425. Vgl. auch Michael Schwartz, Integration von Flüchtlingen im Nachkriegsdeutschland. Ein Forschungskolloquium des Institutes für Zeitgeschichte, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 44 (1996), S. 629-631; Sylvia Schraut/Thomas Grosser (Hrsg.), Die Flüchtlingsfrage in der Nachkriegsgesellschaft, Mannheim 1996. Siehe ferner H. J. von Merkatz (Anm. 35).
38 Andreas Hillgruber, Zweierlei Untergang. Die Zerschlagung des Deutschen Reiches und das Ende des europäischen Judentums, Berlin 1986, S. 12 f.
39 Vgl. Alfred Heuß, Versagen und Verhängnis. Vom Ruin deutscher Geschichte und ihres Verständnisses, Berlin 1984.
40 Vgl. ebd., S. 142.
41 Ebd., S. 208 f.
42 Vgl. Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, Die Anglo-Amerikaner und die Vertreibung der Deutschen. 7., erw. Aufl., Berlin 1988.
43 Vgl. W. Benz (Anm. 5).
44 Vgl. A. Hillgruber (Anm. 38). Zum Historikerstreit siehe "Historikerstreit". Die Dokumentation der Kontroverse um die Einzigartigkeit der nationalsozialistischen Judenvernichtung, München - Zürich 1987; Bernd Faulenbach, Die Bedeutung der NS-Vergangenheit für die Bundesrepublik. Zur politischen Dimension des "Historikerstreits", in: ders./Klaus Bölling, Geschichtsbewusstsein und historisch-politische Bildung in der Bundesrepublik, Düsseldorf 1988, S. 9-38.
45 A. Hillgruber (Anm. 38), S. 9.
46 Vgl. "Historikerstreit" (Anm. 44).
47 Vgl. Empfehlungen für die Schulbücher der Geschichte und Geographie in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und der Volksrepublik Polen, Schriftenreihe des Georg-Eckert- Institutes für internationale Schulbuchforschung, Bd. 22/XV., erweiterte Neuaufl. Braunschweig 1995; Wolfgang Jacobmeyer (Hrsg.), Die deutsch-polnischen Schulbuchempfehlungen in der öffentlichen Diskussion der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Eine Dokumentation, Braunschweig 1979. Stellungnahmen aus dem Umfeld der Vertriebenen insbesondere in: Materialien zu deutsch-polnischen Schulbuchempfehlungen. Eine Dokumentation kritischer Stellungnahmen, Bonn 1980.
48 Helga Grebing hat die Frage aufgeworfen, ob nicht das Nichtakzeptieren der Leidensgeschichte der Vertriebenen "ein weiteres Kapitel der Unfähigkeit der Deutschen (sei), Trauerarbeit zu leisten: wie gegenüber den Opfern des Nationalsozialismus nun auch gegenüber den Opfern seiner Folgen", in: R. Schulze/D. v. d. Brelie-Lewien/H. Grebing (Anm. 37), S. 2.
49 Karlheinz Lau, Verlieren wir das historische Ostdeutschland aus dem Geschichtsbild?, in: Deutschland Archiv, 28 (1995), S. 633-640.
50 Vgl. Herbert Ammon, Stiefkind der Zunft. Die deutsche Zeitgeschichtsforschung hat sich für das Thema Vertreibung wenig interessiert, in: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung vom 5. September 1997, S. 10; Alfred Theisen, Die Vertreibung der Deutschen. Ein unbewältigtes Kapitel europäischer Zeitgeschichte, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 7-8/95, S. 20-33.
51 Verlage dieser Art sind der Laumann-Verlag Dülmen, der Marx-Verlag in Leimen und der Rautenberg-Verlag in Leer. Im Laufe der Jahre haben alle Städte und Regionen im Osten ihre (Laien-)Historiker gefunden, die über ihre Stadt oder Region Bücher und Aufsätze veröffentlichten.
52 Vgl. Günter Grass, Im Krebsgang. Eine Novelle, Göttingen 2002; K. Erich Franzen, Die Vertriebenen. Hitlers letzte Opfer, München 2001 (Buch zur ARD-Fernsehserie); Spiegel-Serie "Die Flucht", Nr. 13 ff., 2002.
53 Vgl. Detlev Brandes, Der Weg zur Vertreibung 1938-1945. Pläne und Entscheidungen zum "Transfer" der Deutschen aus Polen und der Tschechoslowakei, München 2001; Philipp Ther, Deutsche und polnische Vertriebene. Gesellschaft und Vertriebenenpolitik in der SBZ/DDR und in Polen 1945-1956, Göttingen 1999; Manfred Zeidler, Kriegsende im Osten. Die Rote Armee und die Besetzung Deutschlands östlich von Oder und Neiße 1944/45, München 1996.
54 Peter Steinbach, Die Vergegenwärtigung von Vergangenem. Zum Spannungsverhältnis zwischen individueller Erinnerung und öffentlichem Gedenken, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 3-4/97, S. 3-13, hier S. 4.
55 Vgl. Bernd Faulenbach, Von der nationalen zur universalen Erinnerungskultur?, in: Jahrbuch Arbeit, Bildung, Kultur 19/20 (2001/02), S. 225-236.
( 213.70.74.164 10:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC))
How many people
If you have the de Zayas book, or access to the document "Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen.", you could provide some numbers. I will search for the numbers in Czech sources. Then, we can compare them and find the differences.
Wikipedia should be (is not) an encyclopedia. Not a place to whine about poor German women and children.
ackoz
12:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There happened many processes:
the deportation of prisoners (including German people) - so called Death Marches, e.g. from Auschwitz,
The best way to get two millions of victims is to mix everything and to call it "Expulsion". If we are discussing the expulsion literally - there weren't 2 million victims. Even the extremely biased Center against Expulsions doesn't give such numbers: http://www.z-g-v.de/aktuelles/?id=58.
I don't like the continous ad-personam attacks. There are many German sources giving much lower estimates. I don't see any reason to accuse me of anything, because I stay in the limits of an academic discussions. The article quotes:
Are the authors lying?
It's standard that any eyewitnesses overestimate the numbers of victims. Some Germans confirmed that more than 2 millions died in Auschwitz, the last estimates give about 1 million.
Xx236 14:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Pommern - yes, Maehren - yes. Russland-deutsche ...
Germans in Russia may be better. Mitteldeutschland ..
Middle Germany.
My question is how to include the POV Z-G-V intentionaly uses old and inaccurate estimatates? This claim is based on "Opinion of the Commission on the losses connected with the transfer" by joint Czech-German commission of historians (verbatim quote in Facing history, chapter VI. p. 230-232 (Victims ...)), which suggests in case of Czecholslovakia maximum number of victims is ~30000 and numbers like 220000 should not be used. -- Wikimol 09:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, as a thought experiment, consider these extreme positions:
1) The German minorities were fully in favor of the Nazis, rejoiced when they marched into Czechoslovakia and Poland, collaborated in targeting Poles and Czechs for extermination and therefore, having gambled on the Nazis and lost, deserved everything they got.
2) The German minorities were innocent pawns in a great geopolitical game and didn't deserve to be thrown off their ancestral homeland.
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
1) The Poles were evil in expelling the German minorities for their "sins" and should have just left the Germans to live side-by-side with them as they had for centuries
2) The Poles were 100% justified in their actions towards the Germans and the Germans deserved everything they got.
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
1) The Poles did nothing but stand by passively and watch as Germans marched out of Poland and into Germany
2) The Poles exploited every chance to take advantage of the departing Germans and robbed, raped and murdered them at every opporunity
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
One problem is that we try to talk about groups of individuals as if they were one monolithic group. The Germans did this, the Poles did that. No, they didn't. Individual Germans did things. Individual Poles did things. Governments did things. The "Poles" can't do anything, they're individuals not a monolithic group. Same goes for the Germans.
Another reason we keep having these edit wars is we keep trying to push a POV version of the truth which is closer to one extreme or the other. I think it is wiser to say that there are valid perspectives that run the gamut from one extreme to another. It is not for us to say where exactly the truth lies. No one may ever know and there is more than one truth depending on which town you were in and at which time.
My vision for this article is that we present multiple truths and let the reader decide for himself/herself.
-- Richard 20:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
So, something I've been wondering about...
In any mixed community, there are intermarriages. Thus, one problem with ethnic cleansing is that the ethnic lines are not always clear. Didn't Germans marry Poles? What did these families do? Was it the case that a woman would marry into another ethnic group and learn the language of the other group? "I was Pole but now I speak German" "I was a German but now I speak Polish"
"My Dad is German, my Mom is Polish, we speak both languages. I'm German." or... "My Dad is Polish, my Mom is German, I'm Polish." or... "I'm German AND I'm Polish". Americans have this problem all the time except most of them only speak English. Didn't Europeans have this problem 60 years ago?
How is it we talk about "Germans" and "Poles" as if there are clear lines dividing the ethnic groups?
-- Richard 20:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
How is it we talk about "Germans" and "Poles" as if there are clear lines dividing the ethnic groups?
Because German government made itself several classification lists on which it marked who was Pole and who was German, during the war. Some of those classified as Germans (they were several groups of German available) had a chance to rehabilite themselfs if they proved they were forced, or worked for Polish underground etc.
--
Molobo
16:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Good point - a memeber of family of the prominent Polish politician Donald Tusk was on "Wilhelm Gustloff". Does it make Tusk a German? Many Upper Silesians and Kashubs were between the Poles and the Germans.
Peter Glotz' mother was Czech.
Xx236 11:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Some time ago, somebody (I think it was 213) kept substituting Nationalsocialist for Nazi. We reverted those edits. However, in the spirit of cooperation and discussion, I would like to understand what the point of those edits was. From an American standpoint, I have no understanding of why anyone would prefer using the term "Nationalsocialist" instead of "Nazi". In America, we understand "Nazi" and use that almost exclusively to refer to Hitler's party. It is only with some effort that we come to understand "Nationalsocialist" to mean the same thing.
Or, is it the same thing? Is 213 or whoever was making those edits trying to make a point that we just didn't grasp?
Please help me understand what that little revert war was all about.
-- Richard 06:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This article makes no reference to the fact that most of the Germans expelled were expelled from what was then Germany - i.e. East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia. Perhaps this information is going to be added to the 'Poland' section, although these parts of Eastern Germany were not formally annexed to Poland - indeed, the People's Republic of Poland did not yet exist - when most of the expulsions occurred. I notice that the History of Poland articles basically assert that Lwow was stolen from Poland, but imply that Stettin was liberated from a temporary Nazi occupation... hmm... so we'll see what our Polish historians come up with, shall we? Colonel Mustard 14:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR. Why on earth should Selbstschutz be relevant to the expulsion of Germans? Is there any source on the whole wide web that categorises it as reason or are we inventing some reasons? Why can't the author, who usually can come up with anything on the net, not provide anything tangible here? Selbstschutz is so well-known and relevant that — quite distinct from Wehrwolf, which was created in the early days of Wikipedia — Selbstschutz was only created in late 2005. Yes, I do think there's reason to doubt that this is the notable part of background. (while the rest is a black and white summary of the background related to Poland... actually just a black summary.)
"As Selbstschutz counted 82,000 members out of 741,000 Germans living in Poland, over 10 % of Germans living in Poland were members of this organisation(this percentage would increase if one would count only fit male members of German community, who were able to enlist in Selbstschutz, rather then whole population)."
Tell me when you've found a source you can translate for your edits, Molobo, and not only for this paragraph. I'm growing tired of your attitude to delete original research opposed to your views and at the same time some added in favour of yours. You should have familiarised yourself with the policy by now. And don't you criticise abbreviations like ('u' = 'you', '2' = 'to' or 'two' and 'ur' = 'your' ) used to have enough space in the edit summary.
All in all, if the 'introduction' is becoming too long, it should be put into another article and summarized here. Sciurinæ 19:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Why on earth should Selbstschutz be relevant to the expulsion of Germans? Is there any source on the whole wide web that categorises it as reason or are we inventing some reasons? According to Doctor Wardzynska who works in IPN Institute yes it was a reason and researches the issues of population movements in the war period and yes it was one of the issues. -- Molobo 20:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC) Why can't the author, who usually can come up with anything on the net, not provide anything tangible here? I have already provided the neccessary source.Actually two even, but as Polish one was more informative, I deleted German source. -- Molobo 20:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm putting this table here because I am replacing it with the table from the Centre against Expulsions which I find more understandable. I am open to the idea that the Centre against Expulsions table may have inflated figures. If anyone wants to put a sourced challenge to those figures, I will not object. I just have trouble understanding the point that the table below is trying to make. I think the table from the Centre against Expulsions is much more to the point.
German Expellee Population 1939-50 | |||
---|---|---|---|
Description | Germany | Eastern Europe | Total |
Population in 1939 | 9,500,000 | 7,100,000 | 16,600,000 |
Wartime Transfers In | 500,000 | 0 | 500,000 |
Natural Increase 1939-1950 | 600,000 | 400,000 | 1,000,000 |
Military Losses 1939-45 | 900,000 | 550,000 | 1,450,000 |
Civilian Losses | 800,000 | 500,000 | 1,300,000 |
Remaining in East Europe | 1,450,000 | 1,500,000 | 2,950,000 |
Expellee Population 1950 | 7,450,000 | 4,950,000 | 12,400,000 |
Notes:
Germany-The pre-war eastern German provinces that became Polish in 1945 and
Kaliningrad region that became Soviet
Eastern Europe- Includes ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Danzig, the Baltic nations, Hungary, Romania and Yugoslavia. Does not include the USSR.
Population in 1939- Includes bilinguals who were listed as Germans.
Military Losses 1939-45 Research by R. Overmans has increased this total by 360,000 thus reducing civilian losses.
Wartime Transfers In -Wartime evacuation of persons from western Germany.
Civilian Losses -Losses primarily during military campaign in 1945, also includes 270,000 dead in the USSR after being deported as laborers. This table reflects the research of Reichling and Overmans that has adjusted the estimate of civilian deaths downward from the 1958 German government estimate of 2.1 million dead.
Remaining in East Europe-Primarily bilinguals except in the case of Romania. Research by G. Reichling has increased this total by 230,000 thus reducing civilian losses
Sources:
Gerhard Reichling. Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen. Bonn 1986
ISBN
3-88557-046-7.
Rűdiger Overmans. Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Oldenbourg 2000.
ISBN
3-486-56531-1
Fritz Peter Habel Dokumente zur Sudetenfrage Langen Müller, Munich 2003,
ISBN
3-7844-2691-3.
Alfred de Zayas Die Nemesis von Potsdam Herbig, Munich 2005.
ISBN
3-7766-2454-X. Newest statistical survey pp. 32-34.
German Expellee Population 1939-50 | |||
---|---|---|---|
Description | Germany | Eastern Europe | Total |
Expellee Population 1950 | 7,450,000 | 4,950,000 | 12,400,000 |
-Population in 1939 | -9,500,000 | -7,100,000 | -16,600,000 |
-Wartime Transfers In | -500,000 | 0 | -500,000 |
-Natural Increase 1939-1950 | -600,000 | -400,000 | -1,000,000 |
-Military Losses 1939-45 | -900,000 | -550,000 | -1,450,000 |
-Remaining in East Europe | -1,450,000 | -1,500,000 | -2,950,000 |
=Number of vicitms | 800,000 | 500,000 | 1,300,000 |
Please don't use the table from Center, it presents very biased and inaccurate data. The responsible organisation was founded by a Nazi. We shouldn't promote organisations like that as objective sources of information. -- Molobo 12:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but using data from Center is beyond any acceptence. Please find another source. I can't accept using data the source provides as objective. -- Molobo 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
We should find some book about this - the Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen would be great. Richard - I cannot judge if the numbers are correct or not, but we should not use a source whose existence is opposed by 2 governments and disputed even in Germany. Moreover I have seen blatant disinformation on the webpage of the Centre already. However, we should keep the table as is now until we get something better.
ackoz
17:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the G-V-D table
-- Wikimol 20:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the "older table". Point I tried to make was
-- Wikimol 21:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Ad the 55 sources & the final number...
I would suggest
-- Wikimol 22:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Some discussions about the number of victims on axis forum:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1698&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6291&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
"
As also pointed out in the Spiegel article, the ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia have been the only ones so far to prepare a detailed documentation of their losses during the war and postwar period, resulting in a figure half the estimate of the Federal Statistics Bureau. According to another article published in the same feature, a total of 48,447 ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia lost their lives to privation, disease and violence between 1944 and 1948.
"
That's why I think the previous estimates were too high. If the only detailed study halved the earlier estimated death numbers, it is highly probably that other numbers are too high too. Szopen 07:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Whole quote, which is quote interesting:
"That this order of magnitude must be too high became apparent at the time already from lists of missing civilians; only about one-tenth – ca. 200,000 people – were being searched by relatives and friends. So far however only the Danube Svabians [ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia, translators’ note] made the effort to individually document all victims – and halved the estimates of the Federal Statistics Bureau for their region."
"There was indeed an estimate made by the German Federal Statistics Bureau in the late 1950's that over two million ethnic Germans had perished during the flight from the Red Army at the end of the war and the postwar expulsions from Germany's former Eastern territories and various countries of Eastern Europe, mainly Poland and Czechoslovakia."
"This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being well above the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, for example by Rüdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):"
"The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the events historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches Bundesamt), the refugees’ associations and the clerical search service did a lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quantitatively assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The result can be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been killed during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respective territories who had died during military service."
"These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result not of a counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a population balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of the expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must therefore be assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events. In the last years, however, these statements have been increasingly questioned, as the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number of victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is also an unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could always be said, however, that the balance didn’t say that the death of these people had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."
"As also pointed out in the Spiegel article, the ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia have been the only ones so far to prepare a detailed documentation of their losses during the war and postwar period, resulting in a figure half the estimate of the Federal Statistics Bureau. According to another article published in the same feature, a total of 48,447 ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia lost their lives to privation, disease and violence between 1944 and 1948"
End of quote from forum.axis Szopen 07:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It's 64kb which is not terribly long but it is longer than the recommended 30-50 kb. We could try to trim it but I was wondering how people feel about this idea: Why not move the "Legacy of the Expulsions" to a separate article? I'm not sure what the title would be but perhaps "German Minorities in Eastern Europe".
Thoughts?
-- Richard 08:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
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I think some editors of this page are somewhat one-sided in their opinions and do not accept any other opinions. This is very unfortunate and shows me their inability to be tolerant to other views. It seems a waste of time to even contribute if 2 or 3 people control this page like their opinion is G*d's word. I also do not agree with some assumptions made, like "most" or "the Germans" or "the Poles". It is very generalizing, has plenty of omissions and exchangable "most" and "the" words (very manipulating), and does not take into account individual experience and individual suffering. Other opinions are not respected here.
User:25 213.70.74.165 keeps deleting this section and I keep reverting his deletion. This sort of useless edit-warring gets us nowhere. The truth is... the section is in the article for far more time than it is out. Check the logs. This time, the text remained deleted for 4 1/2 hours. The last time, it was reverted almost immediately.
Thus, User:25 213.70.74.165 is only managing to make his/her point for a fraction of the time and the rest of the time the text he/she is objecting to stands. Thus, the repeated deletions serve only to annoy the rest of us and there is no chance that the text will remain deleted if he/she continues in this manner.
Furthermore, these repeated deletions without explanation constitute vandalism and could result in User:25 213.70.74.165 being blocked if someone were to appeal this to an administrator.
I prefer that we do not go down that road if we don't have to.
I got here via the RFC and I came to help, not to join in an edit war.
Can I suggest that we work towards a compromise that will get User:25 213.70.74.165's point across in a manner that is acceptable to all?
I do not completely understand User:25 213.70.74.165's point although I understand some of it.
Here are the possibilities:
1) Selbstschutz was terminated in 1940 and therefore could not be used as a reason for the expulsions
Response: The memory of past events can influence current events
2) Not many Germans were involved in Selbstschutz
Response: I'm willing to credit this if there's documentation. I've asked User:Molobo for English sources and though some have been provided, the most critical passage remains supported by a Polish website. Here's the text in question:
"Every tenth German living in Poland was a member of Selbstschutz and 25% of the German population belonged to Nazi-sponsored organizations aiding in the Nazi conquest of Poland."
I would guess that this assertion is something that User:25 213.70.74.165 would object to. I am confounded by the lack of an English translation but nonetheless, let's assume that the Polish source does actually document those numbers. It is incumbent on User:25 213.70.74.165 to find a source refuting the numbers. Does the Centre against Expulsions say nothing on this question?
3) Even if some Germans in Poland aided the Nazis, that was not a reason for expelling the entire population.
Response: There are two ways to read the above sentence. One is "very few people in Poland, especially in the Polish government thought about the aid given to the Nazis by Germans in Poland". I doubt that this statement is true but we could insert if if it were sourced.
The other way to read the above sentence is "the aid given to the Nazis was not a valid reason to expel the entire population."
I agree with this but it needs to be sourced.
I am out of time this morning. I need to get going. Let's all think of a way to defuse this controversy so as to get past the edit-warring. And, please, let's discuss here rather than engage in edit-warring.
Happy editing.
-- Richard 14:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Selbstschutz was terminated in 1940 and therefore could not be used as a reason for the expulsions This was irrelevent in the opinion of Poles. It was given as example of unwillngess of German minority to be loyal to Poland. I actually restricted myself to connected examples. If I would want to give more examples of such behaviour I could give information about German minority pushing for ethnic expulsion of Poles in WWI already. "Every tenth German living in Poland was a member of Selbstschutz and 25% of the German population belonged to Nazi-sponsored organizations aiding in the Nazi conquest of Poland." Well as to Selbstschutz-it had 81,000 or so members in Poland out of 741,000 Germans living in it.The actuall percentage is a bit higher as you see. And you have to remember that as Selbstschutz was made out of fit men, it didn't include women, children and elderly who compromised part of population also. If you would count only the male population from which those 81,000 that was recruted , you would get larger numbers in terms of support. But again I didn't do this this time.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Molobo ( talk • contribs)
Heh, I will try to translate the related parts as soon as possible. And you are right about the translation :) -- Molobo 00:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Since when did finding one source in a foreign language mean that it was verified or accurate? usually if one cannot find more then one source for information on such a controversial subject, it is pure conjecture and conspiracy theory (which I wouldnt put past Molobo seeing his previous links on other articles). and come on, it states Nazi-sponsored organizations, many different organizations were sponsored by the Nazis, the Red Cross was sponsored by Nazis as well as other humanitarian organizations, by the definition given, anyone working for the Red Cross was a Nazi collaborator. More sources need to be found that can verify this. this of course is not to mention that this is not some peer reviewed published article, but from a website, which can be created by anyone!
-- Jadger 02:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Source of 81,000 number [1], actually I made a mistake its 82,000. The source is on-line encyclopedia of PWN using Wielka Encyklopedia PWN as source . As to pre-war German population data from census [2] -- Molobo 10:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
According to a recent article by a Polish historian - Zamość expulsion eyewitness - all German adult male settlers wore black uniforms. I don't know the exact meaning of it, but they were members of a Nazi organization. Xx236 08:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Now, I mean German settlers in Zamość region 1942-1944. The local Poles called them Czarni (Blacks) because of the uniforms. Xx236 12:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't claim anything general about the Germans in Poland, I have given an example of tens of thousands of German settlers in Zamość region, who were hated by local Poles and had to leave in 1944. I believe that many Germans should have been allowed to stay in Communist Poland, but the ones who were expelled to Western Germany won. Xx236 15:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The main reason was Soviet leadership's (or Stalin's) opinion, especially the future of Germany. It's absurd to ignore the main reason and to include a so long discussion about secondary reasons. Stettin was annexed to Poland, probably because the SU wanted to control the harbor.
In Poland the expulsion was generally a state policy. Local authorities wanted to keep many German workers and were pressed from above to deport them. The state policy was imposed by or at least consulted with Moscow.
Xx236 08:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I can source this. -- Molobo 10:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oder-Neisse line contains some info, but it does not translate Stalin's language into plain English. Xx236 12:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not willing to participate in the “Selbstschutz”-discussion any more. Regardless whether the whole Selbstschutz-issue could have been a sound reason for the expulsion (by the way, it would not have been), it was simply not the reason. The reason was that Stalin and Truman decided in Potsdam to shift Poland to the west in order to secure that the Soviet Union could permanently keep the territories occupied by the Red Army in the course of the execution of the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty in 1939. In order to clear room for the Polish refugees and to prevent future ethnic violence in the new western parts of Poland/former eastern parts of Germany, the German population had been expelled.
However taking a look at the main side, the west-shift of Poland is mentioned in a little, tiny paragraph hidden somewhere in the middle part of the page whereas the article about German minority organisations grows and grows. I do not mind writing about Selbstschutz, Werwolf, etc. but please not on this page as there is no significant connex (it was not the reason and it would not even have been a proper reason). Neither do I want to relativise or conceal anything what happened before and during WWII but it makes me sad and angry how the topic is handled here.
Millions were expelled from their homes where their ancestors had lived partly for more than 600 years, and millions were killed on their way to the west, mostly women, children and old men, driven like cattle, fucked, burned and robbed. This is a cheerless part of European history and would have deserved a better, ie more objective and academic treatment. Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be.
Anyway, I am tired of fighting against windmills and hence abstain from deleting the weird Selbstschutz section from now on. I wish you guys a lot of fun with your homemade-history on this page in the future (“Wo rohe Kräfte sinnlos walten, da kann sich kein Gebild gestalten”, Friedrich Schiller). ( 213.70.74.164 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Would you please discuss my text rather than removing in from this discussion? Xx236 14:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do I disconnect the expulsion from the war? I expressively connected it to the Potsdam Conferrence which is undoubtfully connected to WWII. And why I am not allowed to lament the victims, are they second-class victims? ( 213.70.74.164 15:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
I added the citation needed for the fact that most of the Germans in Czechoslovakia were Nazi supporters.
I also added some text from http://countrystudies.us/czech-republic/26.htm , it should be public domain and it demonstrates the situation in pre-WWII Czechoslovakia. But it is quite long. If anyone is able to shorten it, please do so, but these facts should be preserved:
ackoz
14:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OK .. 213 no discussion with you no more, all your changes will be reverted if you really removed something from the discussion. You are an idiot.
ackoz
14:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you angry, angry little man with your big, big flag... No discusions with you any more - that sounds indeed seductively! By the way, calling me an idiot convinces me of your intellectual helplessness and mental narrowness. As for the deleted comment, it would have been better for Xx236 "reputation" to keep it deleted. It had been undoubtfully millions of victims (approx. 2 million) and to claim it was the guilt of a non-existing German governmemt (formed in 1949!) that so many died between 1945 - 1948 as they did not organize their own expulsion is cynicism at its best. (
213.70.74.165
14:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
It's undoubtfully cynical to claim 2 million German victims after the war. Hundreds of thousands of Germans died during the "Flucht", see above "Flucht und Vertreibung", many perished in the Soviet Union (PoWs, miners). It didn't have any connection to any expulsion, it was a war and Communism. As for the expulsion: Even the biased German Wiki claims 60.000-80.000 victims of camps in Poland. I don't want to discuss this numbers now, the reader can compare 80 000 in Poland plus 30 000 in Czechoslovakia (according to German historian Peter Glotz) and alleged 2 millions. Xx236 15:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
For your information just two sources concerning the overall number of two millions victims (please note that the BPB and the WDR have an excellent international reputation):
http://www.bpb.de/themen/SMG6CJ,0,0,Die_Vertreibung_der_Deutschen_aus_den_Gebieten_jenseits_von_Oder_und_Nei%DFe.html http://www.wdr.de/tv/nachtkulturundgeschichtszeit/gzvertriebenen_2.html
( 213.70.74.165 15:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
"millions were killed on their way to the west" is an example of German home-made history. The total number of German victims wasn't "millions" and many of the victims died of infections. The German government was responsible for the too late and poorly organised evacuation ("Flucht").
The Germans created many myths about the expulsion. Now a German demands academic treatment. Yes, yes, yes! But the academic treatment has been done. There are thousands of pages of published documents.
"Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be." Exactly and you are one of the ill informed and emotional posters. Xx236 12:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
restored the deleted contri
ackoz
14:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
What about 213? He has been attacking me since May the 19. Xx236 15:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Which personal attacks are you talking about, Xx236? Please quote. ( 213.70.74.165 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
I do not know whether he is a little man nor is the flag big, but he was definitively angry, and compared with calling me a "poor" and "ill informed" "idiot" who dares to "whine" for German victims my response was rather civil. Anyway, you are absolutely right that personal attacks do not help us. ( 213.70.74.165 16:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Ugh. Thanks for that, I think. I feel like I wanted a drink of water and got hit by a fire hose.
It's all very interesting but it has made a mess of the section. I don't have time to trim it down today. Maybe you can take a whack at it. That information belongs somewhere but not all in that section. Maybe not all in this article. Maybe it's an article unto itself if one doesn't already exist.
The critical information is the bit about the 60% vote in the 1935 elections. We should, perhaps, focus on that for now.
-- Richard 16:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
23:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Current text of the article includes this sentence "After the war, Germany's and Austria-Hungary's loss of territory and the rise of communism in the Soviet Union meant that more Germans than ever constituted sizable minorities in various countries."
I think I inserted the sentence but I don't remember the phrase "and the rise of communism in the Soviet Union". I don't understand what the rise of communism has to do with their being more German minorities between the two World Wars. Can someone explain this to me?
-- Richard 06:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that there is no Polish section in the "Chronicle of the Expulsion". This is singularly odd since we spend a fair amount of time talking about Poland in the background and reasons sections. We need some text describing the actual events of the expulsions in Poland similar to what we have for Czech Republic and Slovakia.
-- Richard 06:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
A known participant has removed my text:
"millions were killed on their way to the west" is an example of German home-made history. The total number of German victims wasn't "millions" and many of the victims died of infections. The German government was responsible for the too late and poorly organised evacuation ("Flucht").
- - The Germans created many myths about the expulsion. Now a German demands academic treatment. Yes, yes, yes! But the academic treatment has been done. There are thousands of pages of published documents. - - "Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be." Exactly and you are one of the ill informed and emotional posters. - Xx236 12:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to start a revert war. The above text is based on many academic sources. Xx236 12:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe "orderly population transfer" is an oxymoron. I inserted the comparison to the Partition of India and somebody subsequently added the population transfer between Greece and Turkey which is fine by me especially because it provides a more European analog to the expulsions of Germans.
Here's my question: was the expulsion of Germans a more horrific episode than either of those two episodes? We say that, in all three cases, the populations being transferred suffered greatly. I'm sure there were rapes and murders in India although Gandhi probably helped to reduce those. How about between Greece and Turkey? Or when Poles moved out of Russia?
What I'm asking is: was the incidence of rape and murder higher in the case of the expulsions of Germans than in other similar population transfers? I know it may be hard to get at data on this but what I'm really asking is whether we generally believe that they are or are not.
I know Hindus and Muslims in India were attacked. Were Poles in transit from Russia to Poland attacked? Were Greeks and Turks in transit to their respective "mother countries" attacked?
This is important because it puts the expulsions in historical context and perspective. I'd like to hear what you guys think.
-- Richard 06:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There were different periods and places:
Some Germans travelled with their furniture (the Communists), others starved. De Zayas presents many crimes.
The same was true about Poles - some survived Ukrainian massacres, some returned from Soviet camps, some travelled with their cows and/or furniture, some starved after leaving the train in Poland. Many were robbed by Soviet guards.
Generally the fate of Poles was better than the one of Germans.
Many Germans select the Soviet crimes and extrapolate them on any place and time. Xx236 09:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Dear Richard,
in response to your call for a compromise concerning the revert war on the Expulsion of Germans after World War II-side, I would like to say the following:
I am not willing to participate in the “Selbstschutz”-discussion on the qouted side any more. Regardless whether the whole Selbstschutz-issue could have been a sound reason for the expulsion (by the way, it would not have been), it was simply not the reason. The reason was that Stalin and Truman decided in Potsdam to shift Poland to the west in order to secure that the Soviet Union could permanently keep the territories occupied by the Red Army in the course of the execution of the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty in 1939. In order to clear room for the Polish refugees and to prevent future ethnic violence in the new western parts of Poland/former eastern parts of Germany, the German population had been expelled.
However taking a look at the main side, the west-shift of Poland is mentioned in a little, tiny paragraph hidden somewhere in the middle part of the page whereas the article about German minority organisations grows and grows. I do not mind writing about Selbstschutz, Werwolf, etc. but please not on this page as there is no significant connex (it was not the reason and it would not even have been a proper reason). Neither do I want to relativise or conceal anything what happened before and during WWII but it makes me sad and angry how the topic is handled here.
Millions were expelled from their homes where their ancestors had lived partly for more than 600 years, and millions were killed on their way to the west, mostly women, children and old men, driven like cattle, fucked, burned and robbed. This is a cheerless part of European history and would have deserved a better, ie more objective and academic treatment. Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be.
Anyway, I am tired of fighting against windmills and hence abstain from deleting the weird Selbstschutz section from now on. I wish you guys a lot of fun with your homemade-history on this page in the future (“Wo rohe Kräfte sinnlos walten, da kann sich kein Gebild gestalten”, Friedrich Schiller).
Best regards (213.70.74.164 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Just to bring the discussion about the figures to an end:
it had been approx. 2 million German casulties, please refer to the attached 55 (!) sources (ps angry man and Xx236: I know, all 55 sources are lying, faked, completely wrong, biased, falsified, sponsored by Nazi organisations, bla, bla, bla...)
1 Vgl. dazu Gerhard Reichling, Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen. 2 Teile, Bonn 1986/89.
Andere Autoren nehmen noch höhere Zahlen an, so Heinz Nawratil, Die deutschen Nachkriegsverluste unter Vertriebenen, Gefangenen, Verschleppten, München - Berlin 1987, S. 27-32.
2 Vgl. Lutz Niethammer, Diesseits des "Floating Gap". Das kollektive Gedächtnis von Identität im wissenschaftlichen Diskurs, in: Kerstin Platt/Mileran Dabag (Hrsg.), Generation und Gedächtnis. Erinnerungen und kollektive Identitäten, Opladen 1985, S. 25-50. Vgl. auch die Einleitung der Herausgeberinnen, ebd., S. 25-50.
3 Hans-Georg Lehmann, Der Oder-Neiße-Konflikt, München 1979, S. 63.
4 Michael Schwartz, Vertreibung und Vergangenheitspolitik. Ein Versuch über geteilte deutsche Nachkriegsidentitäten, in: Deutschland Archiv, 30 (1997), S. 177-195, hier S. 179.
5 Vgl. Hermann Weiss, Die Organisationen der Vertriebenen und ihre Presse, in: Wolfgang Benz (Hrsg.), Die Vertreibung der Deutschen aus dem Osten. Ursachen, Ereignisse, Folgen, Frankfurt/M. 1985, S. 193-208; Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, Vertriebene, in: Werner Weidenfeld/Karl-Rudolf Korte (Hrsg.), Handwörterbuch der deutschen Einheit, Frankfurt/M. 1992, S. 732-741, hier S. 736.
6 Zum BHE vgl. Franz Neumann, Der Block der Heimatvertriebenen und Entrechteten 1950-1960, Meisenheim am Glan 1968.
7 Vgl. Josef Foschepoth, Potsdam und danach. Die Westmächte, Adenauer und die Vertriebenen, in: W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 70-90, hier insbes. S. 86 ff.
8 A. M. de Zayas (Anm. 5), S. 737. Vgl. ferner Karl Dietrich Erdmann, Die Zeit der Weltkriege (Gebhardt, Handbuch der Deutschen Geschichte, Bd. IV), Stuttgart 1976, S. 681.
9 Wilhelm Pieck, Reden und Aufsätze. Auswahl aus den Jahren 1908 bis 1950, Bd. 2, Berlin 1954, S. 555.
10 Walter Dirks/Eugen Kogon, Verhängnis und Hoffnung im Osten. Das Deutsch-Polnische Problem, in: Frankfurter Hefte, 2 (1947), S. 470-487. Wieder abgedruckt (und danach zitiert) bei W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 125-142. 11 Ebd., S. 127.
12 Ebd., S. 130.
13 Vgl. Christoph Klessmann (Hrsg.), Nicht nur Hitlers Krieg. Der Zweite Weltkrieg und die Deutschen, Düsseldorf 1989.
14 Vgl. Hellmuth Auerbach, Literatur zum Thema. Ein kritischer Überblick, in: W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 219-231, hier S. 219.
15 Vgl. Dokumentation der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Ostmitteleuropa. In Verbindung mit Adolf Distelkamp, Rudolf Laun, Peter Rassow, Hans Rothfels (und ab Bd. I/3 auch Werner Conze) bearbeitet von Theodor Schieder, hrsg. vom Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, 1954-1963; nachgedruckt München 1984. Hier wird nach der Originalausgabe zitiert.
16 Zur Entstehung des Projektes siehe Mathias Beer, Im Spannungsfeld von Politik und Zeitgeschichte. Das Großforschungsprojekt Dokumentation der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Ost-Mitteleuropa, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 46 (1998), S. 345-389.
17 Dokumentation, Vorwort zu Bd. I (Anm. 15), S. I-VII, hier S. I.
18 Ebd., S. VI f.
19 Vgl. Götz Aly, Macht, Geist, Wahn. Kontinuitäten deutschen Denkens, Berlin 1997; ders./Susanne Heim, Vordenker der Vernichtung. Auschwitz und die deutschen Pläne für eine neue europäische Ordnung, Hamburg 1991; Angelika Ebbinghaus/Karl-Heinz Roth, Vorläufer des ‘Generalplans Ost’. Eine Dokumentation über Theodor Schieders Polendenkschrift vom 7. Oktober 1939, in: 1999. Zeitschrift für Sozialgeschichte des 20. und 21. Jahrhunderts, (1992) 1, S. 62-95. Vgl. auch Peter Schöttler (Hrsg.), Geschichte als Legitimationswissenschaft, Frankfurt/M. 1997; ders., Schuld der Historiker, in: Die Zeit, Nr. 14, 1997, S. 15.
20 M. Beer (Anm. 16), S. 389.
21 Dokumentation, Vorwort zu Bd. I (Anm. 15), S. VII.
22 Vgl. Martin Broszat, Massendokumentation als Methode zeitgeschichtlicher Forschung, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 2 (1954), S. 202-213; Theodor Schieder, Die Vertreibung der Deutschen aus dem Osten als wissenschaftliches Problem, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 8 (1960), S. 1-16.
23 Hans Rothfels in seiner Vorbemerkung des Herausgebers zum Aufsatz von Theodor Schieder, ebd., S. 1.
24 Ebd., S. 2.
25 Vgl. Dokumentation (Anm. 15), Bd. I, Vorwort, S. 1.
26 Vgl. Edgar Günther Lass, Die Flucht. Ostpreußen 1944/45, Bad Nauheim 1964.
27 Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste. Bevölkerungsbilanzen für die deutschen Vertreibungsgebiete 1939/50, hrsg. vom Statistischen Bundesamt Wiesbaden, Stuttgart 1958.
28 Exemplarisch für die Tagebücher: Hans Graf Lehndorff, Ostpreußisches Tagebuch. Aufzeichnungen eines Arztes aus den Jahren 1945-1947, München 1961; Taschenbuchausgabe München 1967. Zur Darstellung der Kriegsgeschehnisse siehe Jürgen Thorwald, Es begann an der Weichsel, Stuttgart 1950; ders., Das Ende an der Elbe, Stuttgart 1950; Kurt Dieckert/Horst Grossmann, Der Kampf um Ostpreußen. Ein authentischer Dokumentationsbericht, München 1960; Hans von Ahlfen, Der Kampf um Schlesien. Ein authentischer Dokumentationsbericht, München 1961; Erich Murawski, Die Eroberung Pommerns durch die Rote Armee, Boppard am Rhein 1969.
29 Vgl. Martin Broszat, Nationalsozialistische Polenpolitik 1939-1945, Stuttgart 1961.
30 Vgl. Konrad Kwiet, Die NS-Zeit in der westdeutschen Forschung 1945-1961, in: Ernst Schulin (Hrsg.), Deutsche Geschichtswissenschaft nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg (1945-1965), München 1989, S. 181-198.
31 Von den 81 Abgeordneten, die sich im Bundestag 1965-1969 als "Heimatvertriebene" bezeichneten, gehörten 36 der CDU/CSU, 38 der SPD und 7 der FDP an (Heribert Knorr, Der parlamentarische Entscheidungsprozess während der Großen Koalition 1966 bis 1969. Struktur und Einfluss der Koalitionsfraktionen und ihr Verhältnis zur Regierung der Großen Koalition, Meisenheim am Glan 1975, S. 37).
32 Vgl. Vorstand der Sozialdemokratischen Partei Deutschlands (Hrsg.), Parteitag der Sozialdemokratischen Partei Deutschlands vom 17. bis 21. März 1968 in Nürnberg. Protokoll der Verhandlungen, Bonn o. J., S. 11 und 996.
33 Vgl. Bernd Faulenbach, NS-Interpretationen und Zeitklima. Zum Wandel in der Aufarbeitung der jüngsten Vergangenheit, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 22/87, S. 19-30; ders., Emanzipation von der deutschen Tradition? Geschichtsbewusstsein in den sechziger Jahren, in: Werner Weidenfeld (Hrsg.), Politische Kultur und deutsche Frage. Materialien zum Staats- und Nationalbewusstsein der Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Köln 1989, S. 73-92.
34 Vgl. u. a. Heinz Nawratil, Vertreibungsverbrechen an Deutschen. Tatbestand, Motive, Bewältigung, München 1982; Wilfried Ahrens, Verbrechen an Deutschen. Dokumente der Vertreibung, Rosenheim 1983; vgl. auch H. Auerbach (Anm. 14), S. 226.
35 Vgl. Winfried Schlau, Die Eingliederung in gesellschaftlicher Hinsicht, in: Hans Joachim von Merkatz (Hrsg.), Aus Trümmern werden Fundamente. Vertriebene-Flüchtlinge-Aussiedler - Drei Jahrzehnte Integration, Düsseldorf 1979, S. 151-162, insbes. S. 159 f. Vgl. ferner M. Schwartz (Anm. 4), S. 189.
36 Richard von Weizsäcker, Reden und Interviews, Bd. I, 1. Juli 1984-30. Juni 1985, Bonn 1986, S. 12.
37 Vgl. Marion Frantzioch, Die Vertriebenen. Hemmnisse und Wege der Integration, Berlin 1987; Rainer Schulze/Doris von der Brelie-Lewien/Helga Grebing (Hrsg.), Flüchtlinge und Vertriebene in der westdeutschen Nachkriegsgeschichte. Bilanzierung der Forschung und Perspektiven für die künftige Forschungsarbeit, Hildesheim 1987; Paul Erker, Revolution des Dorfes. Ländliche Bevölkerung zwischen Flüchtlingsstrom und landwirtschaftlichem Strukturwandel, in: Martin Broszat u. a. (Hrsg.), Von Stalingrad zur Währungsreform, München 1988, S. 367-425. Vgl. auch Michael Schwartz, Integration von Flüchtlingen im Nachkriegsdeutschland. Ein Forschungskolloquium des Institutes für Zeitgeschichte, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 44 (1996), S. 629-631; Sylvia Schraut/Thomas Grosser (Hrsg.), Die Flüchtlingsfrage in der Nachkriegsgesellschaft, Mannheim 1996. Siehe ferner H. J. von Merkatz (Anm. 35).
38 Andreas Hillgruber, Zweierlei Untergang. Die Zerschlagung des Deutschen Reiches und das Ende des europäischen Judentums, Berlin 1986, S. 12 f.
39 Vgl. Alfred Heuß, Versagen und Verhängnis. Vom Ruin deutscher Geschichte und ihres Verständnisses, Berlin 1984.
40 Vgl. ebd., S. 142.
41 Ebd., S. 208 f.
42 Vgl. Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, Die Anglo-Amerikaner und die Vertreibung der Deutschen. 7., erw. Aufl., Berlin 1988.
43 Vgl. W. Benz (Anm. 5).
44 Vgl. A. Hillgruber (Anm. 38). Zum Historikerstreit siehe "Historikerstreit". Die Dokumentation der Kontroverse um die Einzigartigkeit der nationalsozialistischen Judenvernichtung, München - Zürich 1987; Bernd Faulenbach, Die Bedeutung der NS-Vergangenheit für die Bundesrepublik. Zur politischen Dimension des "Historikerstreits", in: ders./Klaus Bölling, Geschichtsbewusstsein und historisch-politische Bildung in der Bundesrepublik, Düsseldorf 1988, S. 9-38.
45 A. Hillgruber (Anm. 38), S. 9.
46 Vgl. "Historikerstreit" (Anm. 44).
47 Vgl. Empfehlungen für die Schulbücher der Geschichte und Geographie in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und der Volksrepublik Polen, Schriftenreihe des Georg-Eckert- Institutes für internationale Schulbuchforschung, Bd. 22/XV., erweiterte Neuaufl. Braunschweig 1995; Wolfgang Jacobmeyer (Hrsg.), Die deutsch-polnischen Schulbuchempfehlungen in der öffentlichen Diskussion der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Eine Dokumentation, Braunschweig 1979. Stellungnahmen aus dem Umfeld der Vertriebenen insbesondere in: Materialien zu deutsch-polnischen Schulbuchempfehlungen. Eine Dokumentation kritischer Stellungnahmen, Bonn 1980.
48 Helga Grebing hat die Frage aufgeworfen, ob nicht das Nichtakzeptieren der Leidensgeschichte der Vertriebenen "ein weiteres Kapitel der Unfähigkeit der Deutschen (sei), Trauerarbeit zu leisten: wie gegenüber den Opfern des Nationalsozialismus nun auch gegenüber den Opfern seiner Folgen", in: R. Schulze/D. v. d. Brelie-Lewien/H. Grebing (Anm. 37), S. 2.
49 Karlheinz Lau, Verlieren wir das historische Ostdeutschland aus dem Geschichtsbild?, in: Deutschland Archiv, 28 (1995), S. 633-640.
50 Vgl. Herbert Ammon, Stiefkind der Zunft. Die deutsche Zeitgeschichtsforschung hat sich für das Thema Vertreibung wenig interessiert, in: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung vom 5. September 1997, S. 10; Alfred Theisen, Die Vertreibung der Deutschen. Ein unbewältigtes Kapitel europäischer Zeitgeschichte, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 7-8/95, S. 20-33.
51 Verlage dieser Art sind der Laumann-Verlag Dülmen, der Marx-Verlag in Leimen und der Rautenberg-Verlag in Leer. Im Laufe der Jahre haben alle Städte und Regionen im Osten ihre (Laien-)Historiker gefunden, die über ihre Stadt oder Region Bücher und Aufsätze veröffentlichten.
52 Vgl. Günter Grass, Im Krebsgang. Eine Novelle, Göttingen 2002; K. Erich Franzen, Die Vertriebenen. Hitlers letzte Opfer, München 2001 (Buch zur ARD-Fernsehserie); Spiegel-Serie "Die Flucht", Nr. 13 ff., 2002.
53 Vgl. Detlev Brandes, Der Weg zur Vertreibung 1938-1945. Pläne und Entscheidungen zum "Transfer" der Deutschen aus Polen und der Tschechoslowakei, München 2001; Philipp Ther, Deutsche und polnische Vertriebene. Gesellschaft und Vertriebenenpolitik in der SBZ/DDR und in Polen 1945-1956, Göttingen 1999; Manfred Zeidler, Kriegsende im Osten. Die Rote Armee und die Besetzung Deutschlands östlich von Oder und Neiße 1944/45, München 1996.
54 Peter Steinbach, Die Vergegenwärtigung von Vergangenem. Zum Spannungsverhältnis zwischen individueller Erinnerung und öffentlichem Gedenken, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 3-4/97, S. 3-13, hier S. 4.
55 Vgl. Bernd Faulenbach, Von der nationalen zur universalen Erinnerungskultur?, in: Jahrbuch Arbeit, Bildung, Kultur 19/20 (2001/02), S. 225-236.
( 213.70.74.164 10:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC))
How many people
If you have the de Zayas book, or access to the document "Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen.", you could provide some numbers. I will search for the numbers in Czech sources. Then, we can compare them and find the differences.
Wikipedia should be (is not) an encyclopedia. Not a place to whine about poor German women and children.
ackoz
12:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There happened many processes:
the deportation of prisoners (including German people) - so called Death Marches, e.g. from Auschwitz,
The best way to get two millions of victims is to mix everything and to call it "Expulsion". If we are discussing the expulsion literally - there weren't 2 million victims. Even the extremely biased Center against Expulsions doesn't give such numbers: http://www.z-g-v.de/aktuelles/?id=58.
I don't like the continous ad-personam attacks. There are many German sources giving much lower estimates. I don't see any reason to accuse me of anything, because I stay in the limits of an academic discussions. The article quotes:
Are the authors lying?
It's standard that any eyewitnesses overestimate the numbers of victims. Some Germans confirmed that more than 2 millions died in Auschwitz, the last estimates give about 1 million.
Xx236 14:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Pommern - yes, Maehren - yes. Russland-deutsche ...
Germans in Russia may be better. Mitteldeutschland ..
Middle Germany.
My question is how to include the POV Z-G-V intentionaly uses old and inaccurate estimatates? This claim is based on "Opinion of the Commission on the losses connected with the transfer" by joint Czech-German commission of historians (verbatim quote in Facing history, chapter VI. p. 230-232 (Victims ...)), which suggests in case of Czecholslovakia maximum number of victims is ~30000 and numbers like 220000 should not be used. -- Wikimol 09:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, as a thought experiment, consider these extreme positions:
1) The German minorities were fully in favor of the Nazis, rejoiced when they marched into Czechoslovakia and Poland, collaborated in targeting Poles and Czechs for extermination and therefore, having gambled on the Nazis and lost, deserved everything they got.
2) The German minorities were innocent pawns in a great geopolitical game and didn't deserve to be thrown off their ancestral homeland.
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
1) The Poles were evil in expelling the German minorities for their "sins" and should have just left the Germans to live side-by-side with them as they had for centuries
2) The Poles were 100% justified in their actions towards the Germans and the Germans deserved everything they got.
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
1) The Poles did nothing but stand by passively and watch as Germans marched out of Poland and into Germany
2) The Poles exploited every chance to take advantage of the departing Germans and robbed, raped and murdered them at every opporunity
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
One problem is that we try to talk about groups of individuals as if they were one monolithic group. The Germans did this, the Poles did that. No, they didn't. Individual Germans did things. Individual Poles did things. Governments did things. The "Poles" can't do anything, they're individuals not a monolithic group. Same goes for the Germans.
Another reason we keep having these edit wars is we keep trying to push a POV version of the truth which is closer to one extreme or the other. I think it is wiser to say that there are valid perspectives that run the gamut from one extreme to another. It is not for us to say where exactly the truth lies. No one may ever know and there is more than one truth depending on which town you were in and at which time.
My vision for this article is that we present multiple truths and let the reader decide for himself/herself.
-- Richard 20:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
So, something I've been wondering about...
In any mixed community, there are intermarriages. Thus, one problem with ethnic cleansing is that the ethnic lines are not always clear. Didn't Germans marry Poles? What did these families do? Was it the case that a woman would marry into another ethnic group and learn the language of the other group? "I was Pole but now I speak German" "I was a German but now I speak Polish"
"My Dad is German, my Mom is Polish, we speak both languages. I'm German." or... "My Dad is Polish, my Mom is German, I'm Polish." or... "I'm German AND I'm Polish". Americans have this problem all the time except most of them only speak English. Didn't Europeans have this problem 60 years ago?
How is it we talk about "Germans" and "Poles" as if there are clear lines dividing the ethnic groups?
-- Richard 20:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
How is it we talk about "Germans" and "Poles" as if there are clear lines dividing the ethnic groups?
Because German government made itself several classification lists on which it marked who was Pole and who was German, during the war. Some of those classified as Germans (they were several groups of German available) had a chance to rehabilite themselfs if they proved they were forced, or worked for Polish underground etc.
--
Molobo
16:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Good point - a memeber of family of the prominent Polish politician Donald Tusk was on "Wilhelm Gustloff". Does it make Tusk a German? Many Upper Silesians and Kashubs were between the Poles and the Germans.
Peter Glotz' mother was Czech.
Xx236 11:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Some time ago, somebody (I think it was 213) kept substituting Nationalsocialist for Nazi. We reverted those edits. However, in the spirit of cooperation and discussion, I would like to understand what the point of those edits was. From an American standpoint, I have no understanding of why anyone would prefer using the term "Nationalsocialist" instead of "Nazi". In America, we understand "Nazi" and use that almost exclusively to refer to Hitler's party. It is only with some effort that we come to understand "Nationalsocialist" to mean the same thing.
Or, is it the same thing? Is 213 or whoever was making those edits trying to make a point that we just didn't grasp?
Please help me understand what that little revert war was all about.
-- Richard 06:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This article makes no reference to the fact that most of the Germans expelled were expelled from what was then Germany - i.e. East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia. Perhaps this information is going to be added to the 'Poland' section, although these parts of Eastern Germany were not formally annexed to Poland - indeed, the People's Republic of Poland did not yet exist - when most of the expulsions occurred. I notice that the History of Poland articles basically assert that Lwow was stolen from Poland, but imply that Stettin was liberated from a temporary Nazi occupation... hmm... so we'll see what our Polish historians come up with, shall we? Colonel Mustard 14:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR. Why on earth should Selbstschutz be relevant to the expulsion of Germans? Is there any source on the whole wide web that categorises it as reason or are we inventing some reasons? Why can't the author, who usually can come up with anything on the net, not provide anything tangible here? Selbstschutz is so well-known and relevant that — quite distinct from Wehrwolf, which was created in the early days of Wikipedia — Selbstschutz was only created in late 2005. Yes, I do think there's reason to doubt that this is the notable part of background. (while the rest is a black and white summary of the background related to Poland... actually just a black summary.)
"As Selbstschutz counted 82,000 members out of 741,000 Germans living in Poland, over 10 % of Germans living in Poland were members of this organisation(this percentage would increase if one would count only fit male members of German community, who were able to enlist in Selbstschutz, rather then whole population)."
Tell me when you've found a source you can translate for your edits, Molobo, and not only for this paragraph. I'm growing tired of your attitude to delete original research opposed to your views and at the same time some added in favour of yours. You should have familiarised yourself with the policy by now. And don't you criticise abbreviations like ('u' = 'you', '2' = 'to' or 'two' and 'ur' = 'your' ) used to have enough space in the edit summary.
All in all, if the 'introduction' is becoming too long, it should be put into another article and summarized here. Sciurinæ 19:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Why on earth should Selbstschutz be relevant to the expulsion of Germans? Is there any source on the whole wide web that categorises it as reason or are we inventing some reasons? According to Doctor Wardzynska who works in IPN Institute yes it was a reason and researches the issues of population movements in the war period and yes it was one of the issues. -- Molobo 20:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC) Why can't the author, who usually can come up with anything on the net, not provide anything tangible here? I have already provided the neccessary source.Actually two even, but as Polish one was more informative, I deleted German source. -- Molobo 20:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm putting this table here because I am replacing it with the table from the Centre against Expulsions which I find more understandable. I am open to the idea that the Centre against Expulsions table may have inflated figures. If anyone wants to put a sourced challenge to those figures, I will not object. I just have trouble understanding the point that the table below is trying to make. I think the table from the Centre against Expulsions is much more to the point.
German Expellee Population 1939-50 | |||
---|---|---|---|
Description | Germany | Eastern Europe | Total |
Population in 1939 | 9,500,000 | 7,100,000 | 16,600,000 |
Wartime Transfers In | 500,000 | 0 | 500,000 |
Natural Increase 1939-1950 | 600,000 | 400,000 | 1,000,000 |
Military Losses 1939-45 | 900,000 | 550,000 | 1,450,000 |
Civilian Losses | 800,000 | 500,000 | 1,300,000 |
Remaining in East Europe | 1,450,000 | 1,500,000 | 2,950,000 |
Expellee Population 1950 | 7,450,000 | 4,950,000 | 12,400,000 |
Notes:
Germany-The pre-war eastern German provinces that became Polish in 1945 and
Kaliningrad region that became Soviet
Eastern Europe- Includes ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Danzig, the Baltic nations, Hungary, Romania and Yugoslavia. Does not include the USSR.
Population in 1939- Includes bilinguals who were listed as Germans.
Military Losses 1939-45 Research by R. Overmans has increased this total by 360,000 thus reducing civilian losses.
Wartime Transfers In -Wartime evacuation of persons from western Germany.
Civilian Losses -Losses primarily during military campaign in 1945, also includes 270,000 dead in the USSR after being deported as laborers. This table reflects the research of Reichling and Overmans that has adjusted the estimate of civilian deaths downward from the 1958 German government estimate of 2.1 million dead.
Remaining in East Europe-Primarily bilinguals except in the case of Romania. Research by G. Reichling has increased this total by 230,000 thus reducing civilian losses
Sources:
Gerhard Reichling. Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen. Bonn 1986
ISBN
3-88557-046-7.
Rűdiger Overmans. Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Oldenbourg 2000.
ISBN
3-486-56531-1
Fritz Peter Habel Dokumente zur Sudetenfrage Langen Müller, Munich 2003,
ISBN
3-7844-2691-3.
Alfred de Zayas Die Nemesis von Potsdam Herbig, Munich 2005.
ISBN
3-7766-2454-X. Newest statistical survey pp. 32-34.
German Expellee Population 1939-50 | |||
---|---|---|---|
Description | Germany | Eastern Europe | Total |
Expellee Population 1950 | 7,450,000 | 4,950,000 | 12,400,000 |
-Population in 1939 | -9,500,000 | -7,100,000 | -16,600,000 |
-Wartime Transfers In | -500,000 | 0 | -500,000 |
-Natural Increase 1939-1950 | -600,000 | -400,000 | -1,000,000 |
-Military Losses 1939-45 | -900,000 | -550,000 | -1,450,000 |
-Remaining in East Europe | -1,450,000 | -1,500,000 | -2,950,000 |
=Number of vicitms | 800,000 | 500,000 | 1,300,000 |
Please don't use the table from Center, it presents very biased and inaccurate data. The responsible organisation was founded by a Nazi. We shouldn't promote organisations like that as objective sources of information. -- Molobo 12:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but using data from Center is beyond any acceptence. Please find another source. I can't accept using data the source provides as objective. -- Molobo 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
We should find some book about this - the Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen would be great. Richard - I cannot judge if the numbers are correct or not, but we should not use a source whose existence is opposed by 2 governments and disputed even in Germany. Moreover I have seen blatant disinformation on the webpage of the Centre already. However, we should keep the table as is now until we get something better.
ackoz
17:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the G-V-D table
-- Wikimol 20:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the "older table". Point I tried to make was
-- Wikimol 21:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Ad the 55 sources & the final number...
I would suggest
-- Wikimol 22:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Some discussions about the number of victims on axis forum:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1698&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6291&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
"
As also pointed out in the Spiegel article, the ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia have been the only ones so far to prepare a detailed documentation of their losses during the war and postwar period, resulting in a figure half the estimate of the Federal Statistics Bureau. According to another article published in the same feature, a total of 48,447 ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia lost their lives to privation, disease and violence between 1944 and 1948.
"
That's why I think the previous estimates were too high. If the only detailed study halved the earlier estimated death numbers, it is highly probably that other numbers are too high too. Szopen 07:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Whole quote, which is quote interesting:
"That this order of magnitude must be too high became apparent at the time already from lists of missing civilians; only about one-tenth – ca. 200,000 people – were being searched by relatives and friends. So far however only the Danube Svabians [ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia, translators’ note] made the effort to individually document all victims – and halved the estimates of the Federal Statistics Bureau for their region."
"There was indeed an estimate made by the German Federal Statistics Bureau in the late 1950's that over two million ethnic Germans had perished during the flight from the Red Army at the end of the war and the postwar expulsions from Germany's former Eastern territories and various countries of Eastern Europe, mainly Poland and Czechoslovakia."
"This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being well above the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, for example by Rüdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):"
"The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the events historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches Bundesamt), the refugees’ associations and the clerical search service did a lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quantitatively assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The result can be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been killed during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respective territories who had died during military service."
"These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result not of a counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a population balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of the expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must therefore be assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events. In the last years, however, these statements have been increasingly questioned, as the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number of victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is also an unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could always be said, however, that the balance didn’t say that the death of these people had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."
"As also pointed out in the Spiegel article, the ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia have been the only ones so far to prepare a detailed documentation of their losses during the war and postwar period, resulting in a figure half the estimate of the Federal Statistics Bureau. According to another article published in the same feature, a total of 48,447 ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia lost their lives to privation, disease and violence between 1944 and 1948"
End of quote from forum.axis Szopen 07:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It's 64kb which is not terribly long but it is longer than the recommended 30-50 kb. We could try to trim it but I was wondering how people feel about this idea: Why not move the "Legacy of the Expulsions" to a separate article? I'm not sure what the title would be but perhaps "German Minorities in Eastern Europe".
Thoughts?
-- Richard 08:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the tag. I already provided you with the name of a book Der 'Volksdeutsche Selbstschutz' in Polen 1939/40 von Christian Jansen, Arno Weckbecker.. As both are German authors and university teachers, I would hesitate to claim that Molobo is doing some original research about Selbstschutz here. Your main objection (Sciurinae) was that no internet sources mentions Selbstschutz as important to the prewar nationality struggle background. I would say, that if there are historians who write books of this topic, we shouldn't consider it irrelevant.
ackoz
17:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The book has been reviewed http://www.ikgn.de/zeitschrift_nordost-archiv.ausgabe.1997.02.htm#rezensionen
Xx236 08:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"Expelled by" column ignores that:
Xx236 10:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I finally focused on what this table is and how it was constructed.
I now believe this table is based on unacceptable original research. Here's my argument:
Immediately above the table, the text says
Four of the above sources are mentioned as sources for the table (Reichling, Overmans, Habel and de Zayas). However, these sources differ in their estimates of lives lost. Specifically, Overmans believes it was 1,100,000 whereas the others believe it was over 2 million.
The notes for the table indicate that Overmans estimate was used to adjust the numbers in the table downward. As a result, you have a set of numbers that none of the sources would agree to. This is most easily understood by looking at the "Civilian losses" row. The total is 1.3 million which is not a number that any of the four sources would agree to.
I believe this is a good example of how easy it is to slip into original research. One or more of the Wikipedia editors built this table as a composite of the research done by the four sources. This would have been marginally OR if every number in the table could be sourced to a specific source. (An example would be numbers for Poland from one source, numbers for Czechoslovakia from another source.)
However, when you start modifying numbers by using one source to revise the numbers of another source, you are definitely in the realm of OR.
The problem is that you have no guarantee that any source would agree that the methodology used to apply Overmans estimate to come up with 1.3 million would be accepted by any reliable source. Three of the sources would say "Nein. 2 million +". Overmans would say "Nein. 1.1 million". So, who can you cite that would support "1.3 million"? Nobody. That makes it OR.
A better way to present this information is to find a set of numbers that one source (Reichling, Habel or de Zayas) presents and then present Overmans adjustments as a separate idea in a follow-on paragraph. It may be reasonable to blend Reichling, Habel and de Zayas in one table IF the numbers are close. The text of the article say the Habel and de Zayas estimate "well over 2 million". I don't know what "well over" means. Are we saying 2.1 million or 2.3 million? If it's 2.1 million, their numbers could be blended with Reichling's numbers. If it's 2.3 million, then it's debatable whether their numbers are effectively the same as Reichling's or are substantially different.
However, it's not obvious why we would need to blend the three sources. If they are in substantial agreement, it should be sufficient to pick one and say that the other two are in substantial agreement.
If there is a consensus among Wikipedia editors that my analysis above is correct, then we will need someone to fix the table according to the points made above.
-- Richard 12:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This is from the Axis History Forum. Thanks to User:Szopen for providing the link to the forum. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1698&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
The Statistisches Bundesamt of West Germany prepared a detailed account of these horrors in 1958, the key data of which can be found in Gunnar Heinsohn's Lexikon der Völkermorde, published in 1998 by the Rowohlt Taschenbuch Verlag in Reinbek by Hamburg. They are reproduced hereafter:
Baltic Countries and Memel Territory
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 256,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 256,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 66,000
Yugoslavia
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 550,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 523,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 135,000
German Eastern territories (East Prussia, East Pomerania, East Brandenburg, Silesia, Danzig)
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 10,000,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 7,400,000
Thereof killed during flight or expulsion: 1,225,000
Poland
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 1,400,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 675,000
Thereof killed during flight or expulsion: 263,000
Romania
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 785,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 347,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 101,000
Checoslovaquia
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 3,274,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 2,921,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 238,000
Hungary
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 597,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 259,000
Thereof killed during flight
or expulsion: 53,000
Total German Eastern territories and Eastern Europe
Ethnic German population 1944/45: 16,862,000
Thereof fled or expelled: 12,381,000
Thereof killed during flight or expulsion: 2,081,000
These figures refer to the postwar period 1945-1950. During the war itself, according to Heinsohn's "Lexikon", ca. 1.1 million ethnic Germans from the above mentioned territories lost their lives, as members of the German armed forces, through the outrages of and on the flight from the conquering Red Army or through allied bombing. According a statement by the Bundesminister für Vertriebene in 1962, quoted by Heinsohn, there were 128,000 refugees from the Eastern territories among those killed by allied bombing in Germany.
-- Richard 12:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This is also from the Axis History Forum.
Numbers quoted from Richard Overy "Historical Atlas of the Third Reich"
a-Pre-war population b-German war losses (includes losses during expulsion) c-german population by 1950 still in the territory d-Settled in FRG e-Settled in GDR f-Settled in Austria
Baltic States: a-249500 b-65600 c-15000 d-109900 e-56900
Dantzig: a-380000 b-111900 c-4000 d-230200 e-60600
Poland(pre-1939 frontiers): a-1371000 b-293000 c-431000 d-419600 e-268400
Czechoslovakia: a-3477000 b-446600 c-250000 d-1917800 e-1082000
Hungary: a-623000 b-89000 c-270000 d-149500 f-103500
Romania: a-786000 b-136000 c-400000 d-178200 f-34800
Yugoslavia: a-536800 b-175800 c-82000 d-148000 f-149500
Eastern Germany:
Silesia: a-4576500 b-727100 c-870000 d-2090000 e-1138600
East Brandenburg: a-642000 b-214000 c-16000 d-152900 e-277100
East Pomerania: a-1883700 b-461900 c-55000 d-922800 e-541800
East Prussia: a-2473000 b-489400 c-160000 d-1375500 e-608900
As it can be seen these numbers are still incomplete. For instance it is well known that some people from Czechoslovakia took refuge in Austria. How many?
Some others (from all the territories) were settled in the USA, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Australia,.... Again Mr Overy doesn't tell us.
It is difficult to understand from Mr. Overy if Memel is included in East Prussia or in the Baltic States.
Some germans from the western territories of the USSR might have avoided the transfer to Siberia and Central Asia in 1941. How many of them took refuge in post-war Germany, Austria or the Americas? ( There were for instance 400000 germans in the Ukraine SSR prior to 1939)
A lot of POW settled in the countries where they had been retained. How many and in which countries he doesn't tell us.
Finally some germans civilians from Romania, Hungary and other territories were taken by the soviets during the period 1944/1950 to the USSR. It seems that Mr. Overy didn't took notice of this either.
-- Richard 13:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems their numbers are not more biased than the general bias of German numbers for most of the postwar period. I think it is adequate to call all the numbers into question by saying that some German historians (along with the Poles and the Czechs) believe the numbers are much lower.
We are now faced with the fact that these tables are huge and take up way too much space in the article.
I'm wondering if this level of detail is useful in the article. Somebody (I think it was Wikimol) suggested moving the debate over the numbers to an article about the historiography of the expulsions.
I didn't like the idea at the time but we may have to do something in order to manage the surfeit of numbers. At this point, having all these tables of numbers will more likely serve to confuse than to enlighten the reader.
It seems that, at the very least, we should choose between the Statistisches Bundesamt table and the Center Against Expulsions table. In truth, I like the Center Against Expulsions table better because it's more informative (modulo the issues about things like who was actually responsible for the expulsions which are noted below the table). On the other hand, there are people who would make charges of bias against the Center Against Expulsions. Similar charges can be made against the Statistisches Bundesamt but at least the underlying bias of their numbers is less politically suspect.
Where I want to go with this is to say that the preponderance of German historians believed the 2 million number for decades but recently there has been evidence from German, Polish and Czech historians suggesting the real number might be much lower. At this time, there is no clear consensus whether the real number is closer to 1.3 million or closer to 2 million.
Comments?
-- Richard 16:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)== Archives ==
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive1 holds early undated discussion (probably before 2004-03-23)
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive2 holds discussion posted here in 2004
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive3 holds discussion posted here in 2005
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive4 holds discussion posted here in Jan-Apr 2006
Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II/Archive5 holds discussion posted here in May 2006
I think some editors of this page are somewhat one-sided in their opinions and do not accept any other opinions. This is very unfortunate and shows me their inability to be tolerant to other views. It seems a waste of time to even contribute if 2 or 3 people control this page like their opinion is G*d's word. I also do not agree with some assumptions made, like "most" or "the Germans" or "the Poles". It is very generalizing, has plenty of omissions and exchangable "most" and "the" words (very manipulating), and does not take into account individual experience and individual suffering. Other opinions are not respected here.
User:25 213.70.74.165 keeps deleting this section and I keep reverting his deletion. This sort of useless edit-warring gets us nowhere. The truth is... the section is in the article for far more time than it is out. Check the logs. This time, the text remained deleted for 4 1/2 hours. The last time, it was reverted almost immediately.
Thus, User:25 213.70.74.165 is only managing to make his/her point for a fraction of the time and the rest of the time the text he/she is objecting to stands. Thus, the repeated deletions serve only to annoy the rest of us and there is no chance that the text will remain deleted if he/she continues in this manner.
Furthermore, these repeated deletions without explanation constitute vandalism and could result in User:25 213.70.74.165 being blocked if someone were to appeal this to an administrator.
I prefer that we do not go down that road if we don't have to.
I got here via the RFC and I came to help, not to join in an edit war.
Can I suggest that we work towards a compromise that will get User:25 213.70.74.165's point across in a manner that is acceptable to all?
I do not completely understand User:25 213.70.74.165's point although I understand some of it.
Here are the possibilities:
1) Selbstschutz was terminated in 1940 and therefore could not be used as a reason for the expulsions
Response: The memory of past events can influence current events
2) Not many Germans were involved in Selbstschutz
Response: I'm willing to credit this if there's documentation. I've asked User:Molobo for English sources and though some have been provided, the most critical passage remains supported by a Polish website. Here's the text in question:
"Every tenth German living in Poland was a member of Selbstschutz and 25% of the German population belonged to Nazi-sponsored organizations aiding in the Nazi conquest of Poland."
I would guess that this assertion is something that User:25 213.70.74.165 would object to. I am confounded by the lack of an English translation but nonetheless, let's assume that the Polish source does actually document those numbers. It is incumbent on User:25 213.70.74.165 to find a source refuting the numbers. Does the Centre against Expulsions say nothing on this question?
3) Even if some Germans in Poland aided the Nazis, that was not a reason for expelling the entire population.
Response: There are two ways to read the above sentence. One is "very few people in Poland, especially in the Polish government thought about the aid given to the Nazis by Germans in Poland". I doubt that this statement is true but we could insert if if it were sourced.
The other way to read the above sentence is "the aid given to the Nazis was not a valid reason to expel the entire population."
I agree with this but it needs to be sourced.
I am out of time this morning. I need to get going. Let's all think of a way to defuse this controversy so as to get past the edit-warring. And, please, let's discuss here rather than engage in edit-warring.
Happy editing.
-- Richard 14:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Selbstschutz was terminated in 1940 and therefore could not be used as a reason for the expulsions This was irrelevent in the opinion of Poles. It was given as example of unwillngess of German minority to be loyal to Poland. I actually restricted myself to connected examples. If I would want to give more examples of such behaviour I could give information about German minority pushing for ethnic expulsion of Poles in WWI already. "Every tenth German living in Poland was a member of Selbstschutz and 25% of the German population belonged to Nazi-sponsored organizations aiding in the Nazi conquest of Poland." Well as to Selbstschutz-it had 81,000 or so members in Poland out of 741,000 Germans living in it.The actuall percentage is a bit higher as you see. And you have to remember that as Selbstschutz was made out of fit men, it didn't include women, children and elderly who compromised part of population also. If you would count only the male population from which those 81,000 that was recruted , you would get larger numbers in terms of support. But again I didn't do this this time.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Molobo ( talk • contribs)
Heh, I will try to translate the related parts as soon as possible. And you are right about the translation :) -- Molobo 00:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Since when did finding one source in a foreign language mean that it was verified or accurate? usually if one cannot find more then one source for information on such a controversial subject, it is pure conjecture and conspiracy theory (which I wouldnt put past Molobo seeing his previous links on other articles). and come on, it states Nazi-sponsored organizations, many different organizations were sponsored by the Nazis, the Red Cross was sponsored by Nazis as well as other humanitarian organizations, by the definition given, anyone working for the Red Cross was a Nazi collaborator. More sources need to be found that can verify this. this of course is not to mention that this is not some peer reviewed published article, but from a website, which can be created by anyone!
-- Jadger 02:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Source of 81,000 number [4], actually I made a mistake its 82,000. The source is on-line encyclopedia of PWN using Wielka Encyklopedia PWN as source . As to pre-war German population data from census [5] -- Molobo 10:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
According to a recent article by a Polish historian - Zamość expulsion eyewitness - all German adult male settlers wore black uniforms. I don't know the exact meaning of it, but they were members of a Nazi organization. Xx236 08:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Now, I mean German settlers in Zamość region 1942-1944. The local Poles called them Czarni (Blacks) because of the uniforms. Xx236 12:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't claim anything general about the Germans in Poland, I have given an example of tens of thousands of German settlers in Zamość region, who were hated by local Poles and had to leave in 1944. I believe that many Germans should have been allowed to stay in Communist Poland, but the ones who were expelled to Western Germany won. Xx236 15:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The main reason was Soviet leadership's (or Stalin's) opinion, especially the future of Germany. It's absurd to ignore the main reason and to include a so long discussion about secondary reasons. Stettin was annexed to Poland, probably because the SU wanted to control the harbor.
In Poland the expulsion was generally a state policy. Local authorities wanted to keep many German workers and were pressed from above to deport them. The state policy was imposed by or at least consulted with Moscow.
Xx236 08:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I can source this. -- Molobo 10:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oder-Neisse line contains some info, but it does not translate Stalin's language into plain English. Xx236 12:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I am not willing to participate in the “Selbstschutz”-discussion any more. Regardless whether the whole Selbstschutz-issue could have been a sound reason for the expulsion (by the way, it would not have been), it was simply not the reason. The reason was that Stalin and Truman decided in Potsdam to shift Poland to the west in order to secure that the Soviet Union could permanently keep the territories occupied by the Red Army in the course of the execution of the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty in 1939. In order to clear room for the Polish refugees and to prevent future ethnic violence in the new western parts of Poland/former eastern parts of Germany, the German population had been expelled.
However taking a look at the main side, the west-shift of Poland is mentioned in a little, tiny paragraph hidden somewhere in the middle part of the page whereas the article about German minority organisations grows and grows. I do not mind writing about Selbstschutz, Werwolf, etc. but please not on this page as there is no significant connex (it was not the reason and it would not even have been a proper reason). Neither do I want to relativise or conceal anything what happened before and during WWII but it makes me sad and angry how the topic is handled here.
Millions were expelled from their homes where their ancestors had lived partly for more than 600 years, and millions were killed on their way to the west, mostly women, children and old men, driven like cattle, fucked, burned and robbed. This is a cheerless part of European history and would have deserved a better, ie more objective and academic treatment. Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be.
Anyway, I am tired of fighting against windmills and hence abstain from deleting the weird Selbstschutz section from now on. I wish you guys a lot of fun with your homemade-history on this page in the future (“Wo rohe Kräfte sinnlos walten, da kann sich kein Gebild gestalten”, Friedrich Schiller). ( 213.70.74.164 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Would you please discuss my text rather than removing in from this discussion? Xx236 14:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Why do I disconnect the expulsion from the war? I expressively connected it to the Potsdam Conferrence which is undoubtfully connected to WWII. And why I am not allowed to lament the victims, are they second-class victims? ( 213.70.74.164 15:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
I added the citation needed for the fact that most of the Germans in Czechoslovakia were Nazi supporters.
I also added some text from http://countrystudies.us/czech-republic/26.htm , it should be public domain and it demonstrates the situation in pre-WWII Czechoslovakia. But it is quite long. If anyone is able to shorten it, please do so, but these facts should be preserved:
ackoz
14:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OK .. 213 no discussion with you no more, all your changes will be reverted if you really removed something from the discussion. You are an idiot.
ackoz
14:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you angry, angry little man with your big, big flag... No discusions with you any more - that sounds indeed seductively! By the way, calling me an idiot convinces me of your intellectual helplessness and mental narrowness. As for the deleted comment, it would have been better for Xx236 "reputation" to keep it deleted. It had been undoubtfully millions of victims (approx. 2 million) and to claim it was the guilt of a non-existing German governmemt (formed in 1949!) that so many died between 1945 - 1948 as they did not organize their own expulsion is cynicism at its best. (
213.70.74.165
14:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
It's undoubtfully cynical to claim 2 million German victims after the war. Hundreds of thousands of Germans died during the "Flucht", see above "Flucht und Vertreibung", many perished in the Soviet Union (PoWs, miners). It didn't have any connection to any expulsion, it was a war and Communism. As for the expulsion: Even the biased German Wiki claims 60.000-80.000 victims of camps in Poland. I don't want to discuss this numbers now, the reader can compare 80 000 in Poland plus 30 000 in Czechoslovakia (according to German historian Peter Glotz) and alleged 2 millions. Xx236 15:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
For your information just two sources concerning the overall number of two millions victims (please note that the BPB and the WDR have an excellent international reputation):
http://www.bpb.de/themen/SMG6CJ,0,0,Die_Vertreibung_der_Deutschen_aus_den_Gebieten_jenseits_von_Oder_und_Nei%DFe.html http://www.wdr.de/tv/nachtkulturundgeschichtszeit/gzvertriebenen_2.html
( 213.70.74.165 15:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
"millions were killed on their way to the west" is an example of German home-made history. The total number of German victims wasn't "millions" and many of the victims died of infections. The German government was responsible for the too late and poorly organised evacuation ("Flucht").
The Germans created many myths about the expulsion. Now a German demands academic treatment. Yes, yes, yes! But the academic treatment has been done. There are thousands of pages of published documents.
"Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be." Exactly and you are one of the ill informed and emotional posters. Xx236 12:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
restored the deleted contri
ackoz
14:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
What about 213? He has been attacking me since May the 19. Xx236 15:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Which personal attacks are you talking about, Xx236? Please quote. ( 213.70.74.165 16:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
I do not know whether he is a little man nor is the flag big, but he was definitively angry, and compared with calling me a "poor" and "ill informed" "idiot" who dares to "whine" for German victims my response was rather civil. Anyway, you are absolutely right that personal attacks do not help us. ( 213.70.74.165 16:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Ugh. Thanks for that, I think. I feel like I wanted a drink of water and got hit by a fire hose.
It's all very interesting but it has made a mess of the section. I don't have time to trim it down today. Maybe you can take a whack at it. That information belongs somewhere but not all in that section. Maybe not all in this article. Maybe it's an article unto itself if one doesn't already exist.
The critical information is the bit about the 60% vote in the 1935 elections. We should, perhaps, focus on that for now.
-- Richard 16:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
23:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Current text of the article includes this sentence "After the war, Germany's and Austria-Hungary's loss of territory and the rise of communism in the Soviet Union meant that more Germans than ever constituted sizable minorities in various countries."
I think I inserted the sentence but I don't remember the phrase "and the rise of communism in the Soviet Union". I don't understand what the rise of communism has to do with their being more German minorities between the two World Wars. Can someone explain this to me?
-- Richard 06:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed that there is no Polish section in the "Chronicle of the Expulsion". This is singularly odd since we spend a fair amount of time talking about Poland in the background and reasons sections. We need some text describing the actual events of the expulsions in Poland similar to what we have for Czech Republic and Slovakia.
-- Richard 06:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
A known participant has removed my text:
"millions were killed on their way to the west" is an example of German home-made history. The total number of German victims wasn't "millions" and many of the victims died of infections. The German government was responsible for the too late and poorly organised evacuation ("Flucht").
- - The Germans created many myths about the expulsion. Now a German demands academic treatment. Yes, yes, yes! But the academic treatment has been done. There are thousands of pages of published documents. - - "Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be." Exactly and you are one of the ill informed and emotional posters. - Xx236 12:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to start a revert war. The above text is based on many academic sources. Xx236 12:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe "orderly population transfer" is an oxymoron. I inserted the comparison to the Partition of India and somebody subsequently added the population transfer between Greece and Turkey which is fine by me especially because it provides a more European analog to the expulsions of Germans.
Here's my question: was the expulsion of Germans a more horrific episode than either of those two episodes? We say that, in all three cases, the populations being transferred suffered greatly. I'm sure there were rapes and murders in India although Gandhi probably helped to reduce those. How about between Greece and Turkey? Or when Poles moved out of Russia?
What I'm asking is: was the incidence of rape and murder higher in the case of the expulsions of Germans than in other similar population transfers? I know it may be hard to get at data on this but what I'm really asking is whether we generally believe that they are or are not.
I know Hindus and Muslims in India were attacked. Were Poles in transit from Russia to Poland attacked? Were Greeks and Turks in transit to their respective "mother countries" attacked?
This is important because it puts the expulsions in historical context and perspective. I'd like to hear what you guys think.
-- Richard 06:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There were different periods and places:
Some Germans travelled with their furniture (the Communists), others starved. De Zayas presents many crimes.
The same was true about Poles - some survived Ukrainian massacres, some returned from Soviet camps, some travelled with their cows and/or furniture, some starved after leaving the train in Poland. Many were robbed by Soviet guards.
Generally the fate of Poles was better than the one of Germans.
Many Germans select the Soviet crimes and extrapolate them on any place and time. Xx236 09:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Dear Richard,
in response to your call for a compromise concerning the revert war on the Expulsion of Germans after World War II-side, I would like to say the following:
I am not willing to participate in the “Selbstschutz”-discussion on the qouted side any more. Regardless whether the whole Selbstschutz-issue could have been a sound reason for the expulsion (by the way, it would not have been), it was simply not the reason. The reason was that Stalin and Truman decided in Potsdam to shift Poland to the west in order to secure that the Soviet Union could permanently keep the territories occupied by the Red Army in the course of the execution of the Hitler-Stalin-Treaty in 1939. In order to clear room for the Polish refugees and to prevent future ethnic violence in the new western parts of Poland/former eastern parts of Germany, the German population had been expelled.
However taking a look at the main side, the west-shift of Poland is mentioned in a little, tiny paragraph hidden somewhere in the middle part of the page whereas the article about German minority organisations grows and grows. I do not mind writing about Selbstschutz, Werwolf, etc. but please not on this page as there is no significant connex (it was not the reason and it would not even have been a proper reason). Neither do I want to relativise or conceal anything what happened before and during WWII but it makes me sad and angry how the topic is handled here.
Millions were expelled from their homes where their ancestors had lived partly for more than 600 years, and millions were killed on their way to the west, mostly women, children and old men, driven like cattle, fucked, burned and robbed. This is a cheerless part of European history and would have deserved a better, ie more objective and academic treatment. Instead of this it has become a platform where everybody seems to be allowed to post his own history regardless how wrong and unsystematic it may ever be.
Anyway, I am tired of fighting against windmills and hence abstain from deleting the weird Selbstschutz section from now on. I wish you guys a lot of fun with your homemade-history on this page in the future (“Wo rohe Kräfte sinnlos walten, da kann sich kein Gebild gestalten”, Friedrich Schiller).
Best regards (213.70.74.164 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC))
Just to bring the discussion about the figures to an end:
it had been approx. 2 million German casulties, please refer to the attached 55 (!) sources (ps angry man and Xx236: I know, all 55 sources are lying, faked, completely wrong, biased, falsified, sponsored by Nazi organisations, bla, bla, bla...)
1 Vgl. dazu Gerhard Reichling, Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen. 2 Teile, Bonn 1986/89.
Andere Autoren nehmen noch höhere Zahlen an, so Heinz Nawratil, Die deutschen Nachkriegsverluste unter Vertriebenen, Gefangenen, Verschleppten, München - Berlin 1987, S. 27-32.
2 Vgl. Lutz Niethammer, Diesseits des "Floating Gap". Das kollektive Gedächtnis von Identität im wissenschaftlichen Diskurs, in: Kerstin Platt/Mileran Dabag (Hrsg.), Generation und Gedächtnis. Erinnerungen und kollektive Identitäten, Opladen 1985, S. 25-50. Vgl. auch die Einleitung der Herausgeberinnen, ebd., S. 25-50.
3 Hans-Georg Lehmann, Der Oder-Neiße-Konflikt, München 1979, S. 63.
4 Michael Schwartz, Vertreibung und Vergangenheitspolitik. Ein Versuch über geteilte deutsche Nachkriegsidentitäten, in: Deutschland Archiv, 30 (1997), S. 177-195, hier S. 179.
5 Vgl. Hermann Weiss, Die Organisationen der Vertriebenen und ihre Presse, in: Wolfgang Benz (Hrsg.), Die Vertreibung der Deutschen aus dem Osten. Ursachen, Ereignisse, Folgen, Frankfurt/M. 1985, S. 193-208; Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, Vertriebene, in: Werner Weidenfeld/Karl-Rudolf Korte (Hrsg.), Handwörterbuch der deutschen Einheit, Frankfurt/M. 1992, S. 732-741, hier S. 736.
6 Zum BHE vgl. Franz Neumann, Der Block der Heimatvertriebenen und Entrechteten 1950-1960, Meisenheim am Glan 1968.
7 Vgl. Josef Foschepoth, Potsdam und danach. Die Westmächte, Adenauer und die Vertriebenen, in: W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 70-90, hier insbes. S. 86 ff.
8 A. M. de Zayas (Anm. 5), S. 737. Vgl. ferner Karl Dietrich Erdmann, Die Zeit der Weltkriege (Gebhardt, Handbuch der Deutschen Geschichte, Bd. IV), Stuttgart 1976, S. 681.
9 Wilhelm Pieck, Reden und Aufsätze. Auswahl aus den Jahren 1908 bis 1950, Bd. 2, Berlin 1954, S. 555.
10 Walter Dirks/Eugen Kogon, Verhängnis und Hoffnung im Osten. Das Deutsch-Polnische Problem, in: Frankfurter Hefte, 2 (1947), S. 470-487. Wieder abgedruckt (und danach zitiert) bei W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 125-142. 11 Ebd., S. 127.
12 Ebd., S. 130.
13 Vgl. Christoph Klessmann (Hrsg.), Nicht nur Hitlers Krieg. Der Zweite Weltkrieg und die Deutschen, Düsseldorf 1989.
14 Vgl. Hellmuth Auerbach, Literatur zum Thema. Ein kritischer Überblick, in: W. Benz (Anm. 5), S. 219-231, hier S. 219.
15 Vgl. Dokumentation der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Ostmitteleuropa. In Verbindung mit Adolf Distelkamp, Rudolf Laun, Peter Rassow, Hans Rothfels (und ab Bd. I/3 auch Werner Conze) bearbeitet von Theodor Schieder, hrsg. vom Bundesministerium für Vertriebene, 1954-1963; nachgedruckt München 1984. Hier wird nach der Originalausgabe zitiert.
16 Zur Entstehung des Projektes siehe Mathias Beer, Im Spannungsfeld von Politik und Zeitgeschichte. Das Großforschungsprojekt Dokumentation der Vertreibung der Deutschen aus Ost-Mitteleuropa, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 46 (1998), S. 345-389.
17 Dokumentation, Vorwort zu Bd. I (Anm. 15), S. I-VII, hier S. I.
18 Ebd., S. VI f.
19 Vgl. Götz Aly, Macht, Geist, Wahn. Kontinuitäten deutschen Denkens, Berlin 1997; ders./Susanne Heim, Vordenker der Vernichtung. Auschwitz und die deutschen Pläne für eine neue europäische Ordnung, Hamburg 1991; Angelika Ebbinghaus/Karl-Heinz Roth, Vorläufer des ‘Generalplans Ost’. Eine Dokumentation über Theodor Schieders Polendenkschrift vom 7. Oktober 1939, in: 1999. Zeitschrift für Sozialgeschichte des 20. und 21. Jahrhunderts, (1992) 1, S. 62-95. Vgl. auch Peter Schöttler (Hrsg.), Geschichte als Legitimationswissenschaft, Frankfurt/M. 1997; ders., Schuld der Historiker, in: Die Zeit, Nr. 14, 1997, S. 15.
20 M. Beer (Anm. 16), S. 389.
21 Dokumentation, Vorwort zu Bd. I (Anm. 15), S. VII.
22 Vgl. Martin Broszat, Massendokumentation als Methode zeitgeschichtlicher Forschung, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 2 (1954), S. 202-213; Theodor Schieder, Die Vertreibung der Deutschen aus dem Osten als wissenschaftliches Problem, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 8 (1960), S. 1-16.
23 Hans Rothfels in seiner Vorbemerkung des Herausgebers zum Aufsatz von Theodor Schieder, ebd., S. 1.
24 Ebd., S. 2.
25 Vgl. Dokumentation (Anm. 15), Bd. I, Vorwort, S. 1.
26 Vgl. Edgar Günther Lass, Die Flucht. Ostpreußen 1944/45, Bad Nauheim 1964.
27 Die deutschen Vertreibungsverluste. Bevölkerungsbilanzen für die deutschen Vertreibungsgebiete 1939/50, hrsg. vom Statistischen Bundesamt Wiesbaden, Stuttgart 1958.
28 Exemplarisch für die Tagebücher: Hans Graf Lehndorff, Ostpreußisches Tagebuch. Aufzeichnungen eines Arztes aus den Jahren 1945-1947, München 1961; Taschenbuchausgabe München 1967. Zur Darstellung der Kriegsgeschehnisse siehe Jürgen Thorwald, Es begann an der Weichsel, Stuttgart 1950; ders., Das Ende an der Elbe, Stuttgart 1950; Kurt Dieckert/Horst Grossmann, Der Kampf um Ostpreußen. Ein authentischer Dokumentationsbericht, München 1960; Hans von Ahlfen, Der Kampf um Schlesien. Ein authentischer Dokumentationsbericht, München 1961; Erich Murawski, Die Eroberung Pommerns durch die Rote Armee, Boppard am Rhein 1969.
29 Vgl. Martin Broszat, Nationalsozialistische Polenpolitik 1939-1945, Stuttgart 1961.
30 Vgl. Konrad Kwiet, Die NS-Zeit in der westdeutschen Forschung 1945-1961, in: Ernst Schulin (Hrsg.), Deutsche Geschichtswissenschaft nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg (1945-1965), München 1989, S. 181-198.
31 Von den 81 Abgeordneten, die sich im Bundestag 1965-1969 als "Heimatvertriebene" bezeichneten, gehörten 36 der CDU/CSU, 38 der SPD und 7 der FDP an (Heribert Knorr, Der parlamentarische Entscheidungsprozess während der Großen Koalition 1966 bis 1969. Struktur und Einfluss der Koalitionsfraktionen und ihr Verhältnis zur Regierung der Großen Koalition, Meisenheim am Glan 1975, S. 37).
32 Vgl. Vorstand der Sozialdemokratischen Partei Deutschlands (Hrsg.), Parteitag der Sozialdemokratischen Partei Deutschlands vom 17. bis 21. März 1968 in Nürnberg. Protokoll der Verhandlungen, Bonn o. J., S. 11 und 996.
33 Vgl. Bernd Faulenbach, NS-Interpretationen und Zeitklima. Zum Wandel in der Aufarbeitung der jüngsten Vergangenheit, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 22/87, S. 19-30; ders., Emanzipation von der deutschen Tradition? Geschichtsbewusstsein in den sechziger Jahren, in: Werner Weidenfeld (Hrsg.), Politische Kultur und deutsche Frage. Materialien zum Staats- und Nationalbewusstsein der Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Köln 1989, S. 73-92.
34 Vgl. u. a. Heinz Nawratil, Vertreibungsverbrechen an Deutschen. Tatbestand, Motive, Bewältigung, München 1982; Wilfried Ahrens, Verbrechen an Deutschen. Dokumente der Vertreibung, Rosenheim 1983; vgl. auch H. Auerbach (Anm. 14), S. 226.
35 Vgl. Winfried Schlau, Die Eingliederung in gesellschaftlicher Hinsicht, in: Hans Joachim von Merkatz (Hrsg.), Aus Trümmern werden Fundamente. Vertriebene-Flüchtlinge-Aussiedler - Drei Jahrzehnte Integration, Düsseldorf 1979, S. 151-162, insbes. S. 159 f. Vgl. ferner M. Schwartz (Anm. 4), S. 189.
36 Richard von Weizsäcker, Reden und Interviews, Bd. I, 1. Juli 1984-30. Juni 1985, Bonn 1986, S. 12.
37 Vgl. Marion Frantzioch, Die Vertriebenen. Hemmnisse und Wege der Integration, Berlin 1987; Rainer Schulze/Doris von der Brelie-Lewien/Helga Grebing (Hrsg.), Flüchtlinge und Vertriebene in der westdeutschen Nachkriegsgeschichte. Bilanzierung der Forschung und Perspektiven für die künftige Forschungsarbeit, Hildesheim 1987; Paul Erker, Revolution des Dorfes. Ländliche Bevölkerung zwischen Flüchtlingsstrom und landwirtschaftlichem Strukturwandel, in: Martin Broszat u. a. (Hrsg.), Von Stalingrad zur Währungsreform, München 1988, S. 367-425. Vgl. auch Michael Schwartz, Integration von Flüchtlingen im Nachkriegsdeutschland. Ein Forschungskolloquium des Institutes für Zeitgeschichte, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 44 (1996), S. 629-631; Sylvia Schraut/Thomas Grosser (Hrsg.), Die Flüchtlingsfrage in der Nachkriegsgesellschaft, Mannheim 1996. Siehe ferner H. J. von Merkatz (Anm. 35).
38 Andreas Hillgruber, Zweierlei Untergang. Die Zerschlagung des Deutschen Reiches und das Ende des europäischen Judentums, Berlin 1986, S. 12 f.
39 Vgl. Alfred Heuß, Versagen und Verhängnis. Vom Ruin deutscher Geschichte und ihres Verständnisses, Berlin 1984.
40 Vgl. ebd., S. 142.
41 Ebd., S. 208 f.
42 Vgl. Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, Die Anglo-Amerikaner und die Vertreibung der Deutschen. 7., erw. Aufl., Berlin 1988.
43 Vgl. W. Benz (Anm. 5).
44 Vgl. A. Hillgruber (Anm. 38). Zum Historikerstreit siehe "Historikerstreit". Die Dokumentation der Kontroverse um die Einzigartigkeit der nationalsozialistischen Judenvernichtung, München - Zürich 1987; Bernd Faulenbach, Die Bedeutung der NS-Vergangenheit für die Bundesrepublik. Zur politischen Dimension des "Historikerstreits", in: ders./Klaus Bölling, Geschichtsbewusstsein und historisch-politische Bildung in der Bundesrepublik, Düsseldorf 1988, S. 9-38.
45 A. Hillgruber (Anm. 38), S. 9.
46 Vgl. "Historikerstreit" (Anm. 44).
47 Vgl. Empfehlungen für die Schulbücher der Geschichte und Geographie in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland und der Volksrepublik Polen, Schriftenreihe des Georg-Eckert- Institutes für internationale Schulbuchforschung, Bd. 22/XV., erweiterte Neuaufl. Braunschweig 1995; Wolfgang Jacobmeyer (Hrsg.), Die deutsch-polnischen Schulbuchempfehlungen in der öffentlichen Diskussion der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Eine Dokumentation, Braunschweig 1979. Stellungnahmen aus dem Umfeld der Vertriebenen insbesondere in: Materialien zu deutsch-polnischen Schulbuchempfehlungen. Eine Dokumentation kritischer Stellungnahmen, Bonn 1980.
48 Helga Grebing hat die Frage aufgeworfen, ob nicht das Nichtakzeptieren der Leidensgeschichte der Vertriebenen "ein weiteres Kapitel der Unfähigkeit der Deutschen (sei), Trauerarbeit zu leisten: wie gegenüber den Opfern des Nationalsozialismus nun auch gegenüber den Opfern seiner Folgen", in: R. Schulze/D. v. d. Brelie-Lewien/H. Grebing (Anm. 37), S. 2.
49 Karlheinz Lau, Verlieren wir das historische Ostdeutschland aus dem Geschichtsbild?, in: Deutschland Archiv, 28 (1995), S. 633-640.
50 Vgl. Herbert Ammon, Stiefkind der Zunft. Die deutsche Zeitgeschichtsforschung hat sich für das Thema Vertreibung wenig interessiert, in: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung vom 5. September 1997, S. 10; Alfred Theisen, Die Vertreibung der Deutschen. Ein unbewältigtes Kapitel europäischer Zeitgeschichte, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 7-8/95, S. 20-33.
51 Verlage dieser Art sind der Laumann-Verlag Dülmen, der Marx-Verlag in Leimen und der Rautenberg-Verlag in Leer. Im Laufe der Jahre haben alle Städte und Regionen im Osten ihre (Laien-)Historiker gefunden, die über ihre Stadt oder Region Bücher und Aufsätze veröffentlichten.
52 Vgl. Günter Grass, Im Krebsgang. Eine Novelle, Göttingen 2002; K. Erich Franzen, Die Vertriebenen. Hitlers letzte Opfer, München 2001 (Buch zur ARD-Fernsehserie); Spiegel-Serie "Die Flucht", Nr. 13 ff., 2002.
53 Vgl. Detlev Brandes, Der Weg zur Vertreibung 1938-1945. Pläne und Entscheidungen zum "Transfer" der Deutschen aus Polen und der Tschechoslowakei, München 2001; Philipp Ther, Deutsche und polnische Vertriebene. Gesellschaft und Vertriebenenpolitik in der SBZ/DDR und in Polen 1945-1956, Göttingen 1999; Manfred Zeidler, Kriegsende im Osten. Die Rote Armee und die Besetzung Deutschlands östlich von Oder und Neiße 1944/45, München 1996.
54 Peter Steinbach, Die Vergegenwärtigung von Vergangenem. Zum Spannungsverhältnis zwischen individueller Erinnerung und öffentlichem Gedenken, in: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 3-4/97, S. 3-13, hier S. 4.
55 Vgl. Bernd Faulenbach, Von der nationalen zur universalen Erinnerungskultur?, in: Jahrbuch Arbeit, Bildung, Kultur 19/20 (2001/02), S. 225-236.
( 213.70.74.164 10:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC))
How many people
If you have the de Zayas book, or access to the document "Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen.", you could provide some numbers. I will search for the numbers in Czech sources. Then, we can compare them and find the differences.
Wikipedia should be (is not) an encyclopedia. Not a place to whine about poor German women and children.
ackoz
12:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
There happened many processes:
the deportation of prisoners (including German people) - so called Death Marches, e.g. from Auschwitz,
The best way to get two millions of victims is to mix everything and to call it "Expulsion". If we are discussing the expulsion literally - there weren't 2 million victims. Even the extremely biased Center against Expulsions doesn't give such numbers: http://www.z-g-v.de/aktuelles/?id=58.
I don't like the continous ad-personam attacks. There are many German sources giving much lower estimates. I don't see any reason to accuse me of anything, because I stay in the limits of an academic discussions. The article quotes:
Are the authors lying?
It's standard that any eyewitnesses overestimate the numbers of victims. Some Germans confirmed that more than 2 millions died in Auschwitz, the last estimates give about 1 million.
Xx236 14:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Pommern - yes, Maehren - yes. Russland-deutsche ...
Germans in Russia may be better. Mitteldeutschland ..
Middle Germany.
My question is how to include the POV Z-G-V intentionaly uses old and inaccurate estimatates? This claim is based on "Opinion of the Commission on the losses connected with the transfer" by joint Czech-German commission of historians (verbatim quote in Facing history, chapter VI. p. 230-232 (Victims ...)), which suggests in case of Czecholslovakia maximum number of victims is ~30000 and numbers like 220000 should not be used. -- Wikimol 09:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, as a thought experiment, consider these extreme positions:
1) The German minorities were fully in favor of the Nazis, rejoiced when they marched into Czechoslovakia and Poland, collaborated in targeting Poles and Czechs for extermination and therefore, having gambled on the Nazis and lost, deserved everything they got.
2) The German minorities were innocent pawns in a great geopolitical game and didn't deserve to be thrown off their ancestral homeland.
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
1) The Poles were evil in expelling the German minorities for their "sins" and should have just left the Germans to live side-by-side with them as they had for centuries
2) The Poles were 100% justified in their actions towards the Germans and the Germans deserved everything they got.
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
1) The Poles did nothing but stand by passively and watch as Germans marched out of Poland and into Germany
2) The Poles exploited every chance to take advantage of the departing Germans and robbed, raped and murdered them at every opporunity
Clearly the truth lies somewhere between the two
One problem is that we try to talk about groups of individuals as if they were one monolithic group. The Germans did this, the Poles did that. No, they didn't. Individual Germans did things. Individual Poles did things. Governments did things. The "Poles" can't do anything, they're individuals not a monolithic group. Same goes for the Germans.
Another reason we keep having these edit wars is we keep trying to push a POV version of the truth which is closer to one extreme or the other. I think it is wiser to say that there are valid perspectives that run the gamut from one extreme to another. It is not for us to say where exactly the truth lies. No one may ever know and there is more than one truth depending on which town you were in and at which time.
My vision for this article is that we present multiple truths and let the reader decide for himself/herself.
-- Richard 20:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
So, something I've been wondering about...
In any mixed community, there are intermarriages. Thus, one problem with ethnic cleansing is that the ethnic lines are not always clear. Didn't Germans marry Poles? What did these families do? Was it the case that a woman would marry into another ethnic group and learn the language of the other group? "I was Pole but now I speak German" "I was a German but now I speak Polish"
"My Dad is German, my Mom is Polish, we speak both languages. I'm German." or... "My Dad is Polish, my Mom is German, I'm Polish." or... "I'm German AND I'm Polish". Americans have this problem all the time except most of them only speak English. Didn't Europeans have this problem 60 years ago?
How is it we talk about "Germans" and "Poles" as if there are clear lines dividing the ethnic groups?
-- Richard 20:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
How is it we talk about "Germans" and "Poles" as if there are clear lines dividing the ethnic groups?
Because German government made itself several classification lists on which it marked who was Pole and who was German, during the war. Some of those classified as Germans (they were several groups of German available) had a chance to rehabilite themselfs if they proved they were forced, or worked for Polish underground etc.
--
Molobo
16:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Good point - a memeber of family of the prominent Polish politician Donald Tusk was on "Wilhelm Gustloff". Does it make Tusk a German? Many Upper Silesians and Kashubs were between the Poles and the Germans.
Peter Glotz' mother was Czech.
Xx236 11:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Some time ago, somebody (I think it was 213) kept substituting Nationalsocialist for Nazi. We reverted those edits. However, in the spirit of cooperation and discussion, I would like to understand what the point of those edits was. From an American standpoint, I have no understanding of why anyone would prefer using the term "Nationalsocialist" instead of "Nazi". In America, we understand "Nazi" and use that almost exclusively to refer to Hitler's party. It is only with some effort that we come to understand "Nationalsocialist" to mean the same thing.
Or, is it the same thing? Is 213 or whoever was making those edits trying to make a point that we just didn't grasp?
Please help me understand what that little revert war was all about.
-- Richard 06:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
This article makes no reference to the fact that most of the Germans expelled were expelled from what was then Germany - i.e. East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia. Perhaps this information is going to be added to the 'Poland' section, although these parts of Eastern Germany were not formally annexed to Poland - indeed, the People's Republic of Poland did not yet exist - when most of the expulsions occurred. I notice that the History of Poland articles basically assert that Lwow was stolen from Poland, but imply that Stettin was liberated from a temporary Nazi occupation... hmm... so we'll see what our Polish historians come up with, shall we? Colonel Mustard 14:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR. Why on earth should Selbstschutz be relevant to the expulsion of Germans? Is there any source on the whole wide web that categorises it as reason or are we inventing some reasons? Why can't the author, who usually can come up with anything on the net, not provide anything tangible here? Selbstschutz is so well-known and relevant that — quite distinct from Wehrwolf, which was created in the early days of Wikipedia — Selbstschutz was only created in late 2005. Yes, I do think there's reason to doubt that this is the notable part of background. (while the rest is a black and white summary of the background related to Poland... actually just a black summary.)
"As Selbstschutz counted 82,000 members out of 741,000 Germans living in Poland, over 10 % of Germans living in Poland were members of this organisation(this percentage would increase if one would count only fit male members of German community, who were able to enlist in Selbstschutz, rather then whole population)."
Tell me when you've found a source you can translate for your edits, Molobo, and not only for this paragraph. I'm growing tired of your attitude to delete original research opposed to your views and at the same time some added in favour of yours. You should have familiarised yourself with the policy by now. And don't you criticise abbreviations like ('u' = 'you', '2' = 'to' or 'two' and 'ur' = 'your' ) used to have enough space in the edit summary.
All in all, if the 'introduction' is becoming too long, it should be put into another article and summarized here. Sciurinæ 19:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Why on earth should Selbstschutz be relevant to the expulsion of Germans? Is there any source on the whole wide web that categorises it as reason or are we inventing some reasons? According to Doctor Wardzynska who works in IPN Institute yes it was a reason and researches the issues of population movements in the war period and yes it was one of the issues. -- Molobo 20:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC) Why can't the author, who usually can come up with anything on the net, not provide anything tangible here? I have already provided the neccessary source.Actually two even, but as Polish one was more informative, I deleted German source. -- Molobo 20:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm putting this table here because I am replacing it with the table from the Centre against Expulsions which I find more understandable. I am open to the idea that the Centre against Expulsions table may have inflated figures. If anyone wants to put a sourced challenge to those figures, I will not object. I just have trouble understanding the point that the table below is trying to make. I think the table from the Centre against Expulsions is much more to the point.
German Expellee Population 1939-50 | |||
---|---|---|---|
Description | Germany | Eastern Europe | Total |
Population in 1939 | 9,500,000 | 7,100,000 | 16,600,000 |
Wartime Transfers In | 500,000 | 0 | 500,000 |
Natural Increase 1939-1950 | 600,000 | 400,000 | 1,000,000 |
Military Losses 1939-45 | 900,000 | 550,000 | 1,450,000 |
Civilian Losses | 800,000 | 500,000 | 1,300,000 |
Remaining in East Europe | 1,450,000 | 1,500,000 | 2,950,000 |
Expellee Population 1950 | 7,450,000 | 4,950,000 | 12,400,000 |
Notes:
Germany-The pre-war eastern German provinces that became Polish in 1945 and
Kaliningrad region that became Soviet
Eastern Europe- Includes ethnic Germans in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Danzig, the Baltic nations, Hungary, Romania and Yugoslavia. Does not include the USSR.
Population in 1939- Includes bilinguals who were listed as Germans.
Military Losses 1939-45 Research by R. Overmans has increased this total by 360,000 thus reducing civilian losses.
Wartime Transfers In -Wartime evacuation of persons from western Germany.
Civilian Losses -Losses primarily during military campaign in 1945, also includes 270,000 dead in the USSR after being deported as laborers. This table reflects the research of Reichling and Overmans that has adjusted the estimate of civilian deaths downward from the 1958 German government estimate of 2.1 million dead.
Remaining in East Europe-Primarily bilinguals except in the case of Romania. Research by G. Reichling has increased this total by 230,000 thus reducing civilian losses
Sources:
Gerhard Reichling. Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen. Bonn 1986
ISBN
3-88557-046-7.
Rűdiger Overmans. Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Oldenbourg 2000.
ISBN
3-486-56531-1
Fritz Peter Habel Dokumente zur Sudetenfrage Langen Müller, Munich 2003,
ISBN
3-7844-2691-3.
Alfred de Zayas Die Nemesis von Potsdam Herbig, Munich 2005.
ISBN
3-7766-2454-X. Newest statistical survey pp. 32-34.
German Expellee Population 1939-50 | |||
---|---|---|---|
Description | Germany | Eastern Europe | Total |
Expellee Population 1950 | 7,450,000 | 4,950,000 | 12,400,000 |
-Population in 1939 | -9,500,000 | -7,100,000 | -16,600,000 |
-Wartime Transfers In | -500,000 | 0 | -500,000 |
-Natural Increase 1939-1950 | -600,000 | -400,000 | -1,000,000 |
-Military Losses 1939-45 | -900,000 | -550,000 | -1,450,000 |
-Remaining in East Europe | -1,450,000 | -1,500,000 | -2,950,000 |
=Number of vicitms | 800,000 | 500,000 | 1,300,000 |
Please don't use the table from Center, it presents very biased and inaccurate data. The responsible organisation was founded by a Nazi. We shouldn't promote organisations like that as objective sources of information. -- Molobo 12:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but using data from Center is beyond any acceptence. Please find another source. I can't accept using data the source provides as objective. -- Molobo 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
We should find some book about this - the Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen would be great. Richard - I cannot judge if the numbers are correct or not, but we should not use a source whose existence is opposed by 2 governments and disputed even in Germany. Moreover I have seen blatant disinformation on the webpage of the Centre already. However, we should keep the table as is now until we get something better.
ackoz
17:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the G-V-D table
-- Wikimol 20:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the "older table". Point I tried to make was
-- Wikimol 21:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Ad the 55 sources & the final number...
I would suggest
-- Wikimol 22:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Some discussions about the number of victims on axis forum:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1698&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6291&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
"
As also pointed out in the Spiegel article, the ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia have been the only ones so far to prepare a detailed documentation of their losses during the war and postwar period, resulting in a figure half the estimate of the Federal Statistics Bureau. According to another article published in the same feature, a total of 48,447 ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia lost their lives to privation, disease and violence between 1944 and 1948.
"
That's why I think the previous estimates were too high. If the only detailed study halved the earlier estimated death numbers, it is highly probably that other numbers are too high too. Szopen 07:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Whole quote, which is quote interesting:
"That this order of magnitude must be too high became apparent at the time already from lists of missing civilians; only about one-tenth – ca. 200,000 people – were being searched by relatives and friends. So far however only the Danube Svabians [ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia, translators’ note] made the effort to individually document all victims – and halved the estimates of the Federal Statistics Bureau for their region."
"There was indeed an estimate made by the German Federal Statistics Bureau in the late 1950's that over two million ethnic Germans had perished during the flight from the Red Army at the end of the war and the postwar expulsions from Germany's former Eastern territories and various countries of Eastern Europe, mainly Poland and Czechoslovakia."
"This estimate, which in the second paragraph is referred to as being well above the mark, has recently been challenged by German historians, for example by Rüdiger Overmans, author of Deutsche Militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Overmans writes the following (my translation):"
"The deaths during flight and expulsion concerned the Germans in the immediate postwar period as much as the fate of the missing soldiers, and similar efforts were made to clarify the fate of the missing civilians or bring families together. A huge scientific project reconstructed the events historiographically, the Federal Statistics Office (Statistisches Bundesamt), the refugees’ associations and the clerical search service did a lot with the financial support of the Federal Government to quantitatively assess the fate of those expelled as accurately as possible. The result can be summarized in the conclusion that about 2 million Germans had been killed during flight and expulsion - not including those from the respective territories who had died during military service."
"These casualty figures, however, which for decades have been an integral part of the respective serious literature, are the result not of a counting of death records or similar concrete data, but of a population balance which concluded that the fate of about 2 million inhabitants of the expulsion territories could not be clarified and that it must therefore be assumed that they had lost their lives in the course of these events. In the last years, however, these statements have been increasingly questioned, as the studies about the sum of reported deaths showed that the number of victims can hardly have been higher than 500,000 persons - which is also an unimaginable number of victims, but nevertheless only a quarter of the previous data. In favor of the hitherto assumed numbers it could always be said, however, that the balance didn’t say that the death of these people had been proven, but only that their fate could not be clarified."
"As also pointed out in the Spiegel article, the ethnic Germans of Yugoslavia have been the only ones so far to prepare a detailed documentation of their losses during the war and postwar period, resulting in a figure half the estimate of the Federal Statistics Bureau. According to another article published in the same feature, a total of 48,447 ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia lost their lives to privation, disease and violence between 1944 and 1948"
End of quote from forum.axis Szopen 07:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
It's 64kb which is not terribly long but it is longer than the recommended 30-50 kb. We could try to trim it but I was wondering how people feel about this idea: Why not move the "Legacy of the Expulsions" to a separate article? I'm not sure what the title would be but perhaps "German Minorities in Eastern Europe".
Thoughts?
-- Richard 08:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)