![]() | Incluing was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 01 May 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Exposition (narrative). The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Exposition is a respectable literary technique that is used in almost every work of fiction ever written. It seems odd that Wikipedia's only article on the subject (unless there's another I haven't found) concentrates on bad examples and gives the impression that exposition is a somewhat shady practice found only in hastily written horror movies and comic books. I recommend that this article be reorganized so that the opening paragraphs give a straightforward definition of the term and the derogatory expressions "infodumping" and "plot dumping" be moved later in the article, perhaps under the header "Problems with Exposition." I'll do it myself if I find the time, but if someone else wants to do it they have my blessing. Clampton ( talk) 22:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, regarding this sentence "...naked, unapologetic infodumps, with lengthy Idiot Lecture and Exposition sequences..". I couldn't find the word "Unapologetic" here -> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/results.asp?searchword=unapologetic&x=33&y=10 Could someone explain me why? Preferably someone whose mother language is english. Also, what's an "Idiot Lecture and Exposition"? Searching for that with Google only results in finding this wikipage. Also, it is the only time it is referred in this article. I suppose that capitalizing the first letters means it's some kind of Title or Expression, but I could not find anymore info about it. Any oppinions? ShinjiPG ( talk) 13:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I concur with this User’s commentary. I would also appreciate somebody, who is familiar with Writing and Editing, to further explain the meaning of “Idiot Lecture and Exposition,” thanks. Mark Halsey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markhalsey ( talk • contribs) 16:51,15 December 2017 (UTC)
I noted that any mention on this page of "incluing" disappeared 2 Dec 2012.
I suggest a request for deletion of Incluing is put up, or a new section on "incluing" is built up. As things stand right now, the content is (=could be viewed as) "sneakily deleted" (bypassing any rfd) CapnZapp ( talk) 19:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The section "Information Dump" has at the end a list "Examples include:" which seems completely arbitary and lacking any sources. I think it should be removed. Master z0b ( talk) 01:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the comment to the previous edit:
Removing the section on "Sexposition" is fine, but not for the reasons given. We already have an article called Sexposition (which have survived a deletion request, so please don't pursue the arguments "not enough to make it worthwhile" or "we shouldn't be helping to create" since that discussion bring up several good sources that establishes the term's existance as well as the article's validity), so duplicating the content here is inappropriate. Mentioning the term is perfectly appropriate for this article, however - I simply linked to it in the see also section. CapnZapp ( talk) 21:25, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
I think this is really unclear.
First off, the section should better prepare the reader that, yes, the terms are really "As you know, Bob" and "idiot lectures". An uninformed or casual reader will probably just assume the page was vandalized since the terms sounds so non-sensical.
Second, a question: isn't a criteria for As you know Bob exposition that the characters having the dialogue already know the things they tell each other? Put otherwise, do you really apply "AYKB" to all exposition-through-dialogue (like the article claims) or only when it doesn't make any sense for the characters to repeat stuff they already know?
CapnZapp ( talk) 21:32, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
I do appreciate the quick feedback. However, the criticism remains unclear to me. Why does the article not "include all significant viewpoints"? Why may some or all of the listed sources not be reliable? I think the quote by Robert Kenen should be here but it would off course be even better if we had the quote from a renown author such as Stephen King. -- Spannerjam ( talk) 08:25, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand why when I search for Causal analysis, I am redirected to this page. I am sure this is in error, or I know even less about causal analysis than I thought. 192.213.136.129 ( talk) 15:23, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
Really not a very good article. Mostly, it seems like someone wrote a paean to the genius of Jo Walton for coining a term (wowee!) then tacked on a few related thoughts and decided it was done. As a speculative-fiction fan of almost a half-century, and an occasional writer and writing instructor, I have never before encountered the term "incluing" — here, it comes across as gratuitous kissing-up. Mention it maybe, then move along (or create its own article). (It's a recurring WP misspelling, but does appear in Cyberpunk (novel) though not Jo Walton.)
While Infodump redirects to this page, it is not explicitly connected to the glancing mention tacked onto the end. What was it called BEFORE tech wonks like me tagged it thus in the '80s (from the term core dump)? or is this implying that expositional suffocation didn't exist before The Computer Age?
There's an overall tone of textbooking &/or howto, not least being the There are several ways to accomplish exposition, a promise that's unfulfilled.
Overall, it'd be nice to find an article that speaks about exposition, refers the WP user to credible texts FFI, and maybe even gives a couple of brief examples (preferably selected by some cited source) to compare-and-contrast major groups of narrative form.
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
13:57, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
I propose drastic changes to this article. I will find the time and resources to research and update it. The article is lackluster and on a quick glance of the history, has gone through a lot of changes. The wording was almost verbatim to its references and still has similarity. Additionally, as previously mentioned, exposition is a well known technique used throughout story-writing; yet, this Wikipedia page portrays it as if it is bad. And has very little detail
I think some real research should be done to cover the issues mentioned here.
Happy to contribute, will likely pick up some references. Plan to at least start the process in fixing up this page, with the hope of the community adding onto it and correcting anything as needed.
–
Sir Rin (
talk)
03:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Unfortunately, life gets in the way but I do wish to address this page even if it wasn't when I was initially outlining improvements. This will be on my list. :: Sir Rin ( talk) 01:54, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() | Incluing was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 01 May 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Exposition (narrative). The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 10 sections are present. |
Exposition is a respectable literary technique that is used in almost every work of fiction ever written. It seems odd that Wikipedia's only article on the subject (unless there's another I haven't found) concentrates on bad examples and gives the impression that exposition is a somewhat shady practice found only in hastily written horror movies and comic books. I recommend that this article be reorganized so that the opening paragraphs give a straightforward definition of the term and the derogatory expressions "infodumping" and "plot dumping" be moved later in the article, perhaps under the header "Problems with Exposition." I'll do it myself if I find the time, but if someone else wants to do it they have my blessing. Clampton ( talk) 22:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, regarding this sentence "...naked, unapologetic infodumps, with lengthy Idiot Lecture and Exposition sequences..". I couldn't find the word "Unapologetic" here -> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/results.asp?searchword=unapologetic&x=33&y=10 Could someone explain me why? Preferably someone whose mother language is english. Also, what's an "Idiot Lecture and Exposition"? Searching for that with Google only results in finding this wikipage. Also, it is the only time it is referred in this article. I suppose that capitalizing the first letters means it's some kind of Title or Expression, but I could not find anymore info about it. Any oppinions? ShinjiPG ( talk) 13:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I concur with this User’s commentary. I would also appreciate somebody, who is familiar with Writing and Editing, to further explain the meaning of “Idiot Lecture and Exposition,” thanks. Mark Halsey. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markhalsey ( talk • contribs) 16:51,15 December 2017 (UTC)
I noted that any mention on this page of "incluing" disappeared 2 Dec 2012.
I suggest a request for deletion of Incluing is put up, or a new section on "incluing" is built up. As things stand right now, the content is (=could be viewed as) "sneakily deleted" (bypassing any rfd) CapnZapp ( talk) 19:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The section "Information Dump" has at the end a list "Examples include:" which seems completely arbitary and lacking any sources. I think it should be removed. Master z0b ( talk) 01:28, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the comment to the previous edit:
Removing the section on "Sexposition" is fine, but not for the reasons given. We already have an article called Sexposition (which have survived a deletion request, so please don't pursue the arguments "not enough to make it worthwhile" or "we shouldn't be helping to create" since that discussion bring up several good sources that establishes the term's existance as well as the article's validity), so duplicating the content here is inappropriate. Mentioning the term is perfectly appropriate for this article, however - I simply linked to it in the see also section. CapnZapp ( talk) 21:25, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
I think this is really unclear.
First off, the section should better prepare the reader that, yes, the terms are really "As you know, Bob" and "idiot lectures". An uninformed or casual reader will probably just assume the page was vandalized since the terms sounds so non-sensical.
Second, a question: isn't a criteria for As you know Bob exposition that the characters having the dialogue already know the things they tell each other? Put otherwise, do you really apply "AYKB" to all exposition-through-dialogue (like the article claims) or only when it doesn't make any sense for the characters to repeat stuff they already know?
CapnZapp ( talk) 21:32, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
I do appreciate the quick feedback. However, the criticism remains unclear to me. Why does the article not "include all significant viewpoints"? Why may some or all of the listed sources not be reliable? I think the quote by Robert Kenen should be here but it would off course be even better if we had the quote from a renown author such as Stephen King. -- Spannerjam ( talk) 08:25, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand why when I search for Causal analysis, I am redirected to this page. I am sure this is in error, or I know even less about causal analysis than I thought. 192.213.136.129 ( talk) 15:23, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
Really not a very good article. Mostly, it seems like someone wrote a paean to the genius of Jo Walton for coining a term (wowee!) then tacked on a few related thoughts and decided it was done. As a speculative-fiction fan of almost a half-century, and an occasional writer and writing instructor, I have never before encountered the term "incluing" — here, it comes across as gratuitous kissing-up. Mention it maybe, then move along (or create its own article). (It's a recurring WP misspelling, but does appear in Cyberpunk (novel) though not Jo Walton.)
While Infodump redirects to this page, it is not explicitly connected to the glancing mention tacked onto the end. What was it called BEFORE tech wonks like me tagged it thus in the '80s (from the term core dump)? or is this implying that expositional suffocation didn't exist before The Computer Age?
There's an overall tone of textbooking &/or howto, not least being the There are several ways to accomplish exposition, a promise that's unfulfilled.
Overall, it'd be nice to find an article that speaks about exposition, refers the WP user to credible texts FFI, and maybe even gives a couple of brief examples (preferably selected by some cited source) to compare-and-contrast major groups of narrative form.
Weeb Dingle (
talk)
13:57, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
I propose drastic changes to this article. I will find the time and resources to research and update it. The article is lackluster and on a quick glance of the history, has gone through a lot of changes. The wording was almost verbatim to its references and still has similarity. Additionally, as previously mentioned, exposition is a well known technique used throughout story-writing; yet, this Wikipedia page portrays it as if it is bad. And has very little detail
I think some real research should be done to cover the issues mentioned here.
Happy to contribute, will likely pick up some references. Plan to at least start the process in fixing up this page, with the hope of the community adding onto it and correcting anything as needed.
–
Sir Rin (
talk)
03:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Unfortunately, life gets in the way but I do wish to address this page even if it wasn't when I was initially outlining improvements. This will be on my list. :: Sir Rin ( talk) 01:54, 26 May 2021 (UTC)