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Is this a correct use of the term, and if so should it be used in the first sentence of the definition? Smile4Chomsky ( talk) 12:56, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
"Because they use explosives to form a solid copper penetrator instead of using an explosive blast or metal fragments, these charges are extremely dangerous, even to the new generation of MREs (which are made to withstand an anti-tank mine), and many tanks.[9]" MRE's stand for Meals Ready to Eat and the link directs as such, what does that have anything to do with armor or EFP's? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.48.72.35 ( talk) 17:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I find that the graf about MEFP, SEFP, etc adds a great deal of jargon, much redundant information, quite a lot of unnecessary technical detail, and very little relative value for the non-obsessed reader; anybody agrees/disagrees?-- Victor falk 23:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
"An explosively formed penetrator (EFP), self forging warhead or self forging fragment is a special type of shaped charge that is designed to penetrate effectively at long range."
I find it questionable to describe EFPs as a "special type of shaped charge".
Early in the article it states, "A conventional shaped charge has a generally conical metal liner that projects.... An EFP, on the other hand, has a liner in the shape of a shallow dish."
The purpose of the metal liner inside the conical cavity of the shaped charge is to add greater mass to the "jet" enabling greater penetration. It should be noted that these liners are far thinner than the disk found on EFP/SFF's.
The article later states, "The charges are generally cylindrical, fabricated from commonly available water or oil pipe with the forward end closed by a concave copper or steel disk (liner) to create a shaped charge."
This does absolutely nothing to create a shaped charge. The key thing is consistency in the metal of the disk, consistency in the placement and composition of the explosive charge and that the explosive charge is center primed. Read some of the patents that are published about EFPs.
When we were shown how to make expedient/improvised explosive devices while I was on active duty in the early 90's we were shown how to make something called a platter charge.
Go to [1] and search down toward the bottom for "Figure 13-16. Platter charge"
"PLATTER CHARGE The platter charge (Figure 13-16) consists of a suitable container that is filled with uniformly packed explosive and placed behind a platter. The platter is metal (preferably round, but square is satisfactory) and weighs 1 to 3 kilograms..."
In a nutshell the term "shaped charge" should primarily apply to devices where the actualy "shape" of the explosives is the primary determinant in the devise's effects.
The platter charge should be called just that a platter charge - unless there is a more specific and descriptive name. The projectile that results from its detonation should be called the Explosively Formed Penetrator or Self Forging Fragment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.226.49.191 ( talk) 11:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
Should the current claimed connection between Iran and EFPs in Iraq be discussed? The talking heads claiming a link to Iran cite that Iran is especially adapt at making EFPs. They don't give real citations though. I wouldn't consider anything that Michael Gordon (or the current administration) says to be of a high enough quality to be on wikipedia either.
I have commented on this in the Section titled Alfred Herrhausen, below. Lorinhobenson 13:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I found one sentence in the article a little bit missleading. Quote: "It can easily punch through the protection of light- to medium-armoured vehicles, to deliver a wide spray of fragments of liner material and vehicle armour backspall into the vehicle's interior, injuring its crew and damaging other systems." Now in my opinion it should be clarified, that these weapons are dangerous for heavy armoured vehicles and even main battle tanks like the Challenger 2 (the tanks deployed in Iraq carry additional armour and weight about 70 tons, claims the source). The Guardian reported an attack on a Challenger 2 with an EFP, resulting in a heavily wounded driver. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2064110,00.html This article states some details on the vector of attack: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/robert_fox/2007/04/king_or_country.html Quote: "The charge was aimed through the front of a main track, a vulnerable point in any such vehicle and under the driver's compartment at the front of the tank - which should have some of the best protection by armoured plating." It's also claimed that several Abrams tanks have been destroyed in central iraq, but I'm not shure about these information. Maybe someone could look into it.
Mobility killed, yes. Catastrophically killed, no. Mostly what RPGs and the like did was just put blackened gouges in the armor.-- LWF 12:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
As I understand, EFPs cannot pierce heavy armour, e.g. the front armour of a MBT's turret; as the quote says, it was hit in a weak spot. Just because you can destroy a tank by throwing a grenade in open hatch, you don't say grenades are a danger to heavy armour.-- Victor falk 13:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Weapons will also be tailored to the particular operation. If a directional explosive is needed,the terrorist could make use of available military models of anti-tank and anti-personnel mines. Conversely, the terrorist may determine that a mine would be detected by the target'ssecurity force en route to the attack, and he therefore needs to build or obtain an alternative device. To illustrate, even counting the warheads of anti-ship cruise missiles, there was not a readily available weapon for the attack on the USS Cole. No one manufactures a half-ton C-4 platter charge configured to fit in a small boat, but that was exactly what the terrorist's plan required. Therefore it was exactly what the terrorist group built. Additionally, Operation Iraqi Freedom has demonstrated the terrorists' ability to construct a variety of IEDs that are effective, yet are easily emplaced and difficult to detect by military forces. source: (pdf): http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/army/guidterr/app_c.pdf -- Victor falk 22:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC).
I have requested a citation for the claim that Alfred Herrhausen was killed by and EFP. I am pretty sure that it was actually a platter charge, which is similar, but not the same. Also I have requested a citation on the claim that Hezbollah used them in the '06 war. I am pretty sure that there is something out there, but I don't know where. If Hezbollah is using actual EFP's, and not platter charges, then we return to the question of where they get them from. It is a germane question from a technical perspective, because either these devices are easy to make, and can be assembled readily, or they require a degree of proficiency. If the former, then surely they are the largest emerging threat. If the latter then they are usually a product of a state or a professional organization. Which in turn, with respect to Hezbollah, raises Iran.
I have a proposal that should be both verifiable, and not violate the NPOV rule. Perhaps a section on countries that are developing EFP's could be added. Then reports stating that Iran is passing such weapons to Hezbollah, or insurgent groups within Iraq could be brought up as just that, reports. If we begin discounting reports because we dislike their politics, we run the risk of violating the NPOV, and simultaneously eliminate our greatest source of information. After all, if we through out all information from 'this administration' then what about meteorological data, or overhead imagery, or highway closures for that matter. We would then only be able to get information from opposition, which would clearly be a violation of NPOV. If we present reports, as reports, we should be fine.
Lorinhobenson 13:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Image:ExFiPro-balanced.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 03:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
The recently added text starting "An EFP eight inches" seems to be a direct copy of the Washington Post footnoted article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/30/AR2007093001675_5.html. Does this meet fair use requirements? Burt Harris ( talk) 21:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
After going off and reading the linked disambiguation article on standoff, I have not the slightest clue what this is supposed to mean in this article. How far away, exactly is "stand off" distance? 1 meter? 10 meters? Is it the distance you can run before whatever detonates? DMahalko ( talk) 02:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
The article says explosively formed penetrators were formed in WWII yet the citation does not go to a specific article, there is no further information and I have never seen any source saying that EFPs were used in WWII. Clarification needed. Kbog ( talk) 03:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
-- Gary Dee 18:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 21:55, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
The example given from The Terminal List is excessively descriptive of the plot of the show. Anyone coming to this Wikipedia article for encyclopedic information on EFPs may be unintentionally exposed to plot details that do not substantially increase understanding about EFPs.
Simply stating that an EFP was an important plot element of The Terminal List might be appropriate for this article, but not the extra details about how and why it was used. 47.6.83.115 ( talk) 20:06, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
"'In popular culture' sections should be avoided unless the subject has had a well-cited and notable impact on popular culture."BilCat ( talk) 23:10, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is this a correct use of the term, and if so should it be used in the first sentence of the definition? Smile4Chomsky ( talk) 12:56, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
"Because they use explosives to form a solid copper penetrator instead of using an explosive blast or metal fragments, these charges are extremely dangerous, even to the new generation of MREs (which are made to withstand an anti-tank mine), and many tanks.[9]" MRE's stand for Meals Ready to Eat and the link directs as such, what does that have anything to do with armor or EFP's? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.48.72.35 ( talk) 17:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I find that the graf about MEFP, SEFP, etc adds a great deal of jargon, much redundant information, quite a lot of unnecessary technical detail, and very little relative value for the non-obsessed reader; anybody agrees/disagrees?-- Victor falk 23:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
"An explosively formed penetrator (EFP), self forging warhead or self forging fragment is a special type of shaped charge that is designed to penetrate effectively at long range."
I find it questionable to describe EFPs as a "special type of shaped charge".
Early in the article it states, "A conventional shaped charge has a generally conical metal liner that projects.... An EFP, on the other hand, has a liner in the shape of a shallow dish."
The purpose of the metal liner inside the conical cavity of the shaped charge is to add greater mass to the "jet" enabling greater penetration. It should be noted that these liners are far thinner than the disk found on EFP/SFF's.
The article later states, "The charges are generally cylindrical, fabricated from commonly available water or oil pipe with the forward end closed by a concave copper or steel disk (liner) to create a shaped charge."
This does absolutely nothing to create a shaped charge. The key thing is consistency in the metal of the disk, consistency in the placement and composition of the explosive charge and that the explosive charge is center primed. Read some of the patents that are published about EFPs.
When we were shown how to make expedient/improvised explosive devices while I was on active duty in the early 90's we were shown how to make something called a platter charge.
Go to [1] and search down toward the bottom for "Figure 13-16. Platter charge"
"PLATTER CHARGE The platter charge (Figure 13-16) consists of a suitable container that is filled with uniformly packed explosive and placed behind a platter. The platter is metal (preferably round, but square is satisfactory) and weighs 1 to 3 kilograms..."
In a nutshell the term "shaped charge" should primarily apply to devices where the actualy "shape" of the explosives is the primary determinant in the devise's effects.
The platter charge should be called just that a platter charge - unless there is a more specific and descriptive name. The projectile that results from its detonation should be called the Explosively Formed Penetrator or Self Forging Fragment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.226.49.191 ( talk) 11:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
Should the current claimed connection between Iran and EFPs in Iraq be discussed? The talking heads claiming a link to Iran cite that Iran is especially adapt at making EFPs. They don't give real citations though. I wouldn't consider anything that Michael Gordon (or the current administration) says to be of a high enough quality to be on wikipedia either.
I have commented on this in the Section titled Alfred Herrhausen, below. Lorinhobenson 13:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I found one sentence in the article a little bit missleading. Quote: "It can easily punch through the protection of light- to medium-armoured vehicles, to deliver a wide spray of fragments of liner material and vehicle armour backspall into the vehicle's interior, injuring its crew and damaging other systems." Now in my opinion it should be clarified, that these weapons are dangerous for heavy armoured vehicles and even main battle tanks like the Challenger 2 (the tanks deployed in Iraq carry additional armour and weight about 70 tons, claims the source). The Guardian reported an attack on a Challenger 2 with an EFP, resulting in a heavily wounded driver. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2064110,00.html This article states some details on the vector of attack: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/robert_fox/2007/04/king_or_country.html Quote: "The charge was aimed through the front of a main track, a vulnerable point in any such vehicle and under the driver's compartment at the front of the tank - which should have some of the best protection by armoured plating." It's also claimed that several Abrams tanks have been destroyed in central iraq, but I'm not shure about these information. Maybe someone could look into it.
Mobility killed, yes. Catastrophically killed, no. Mostly what RPGs and the like did was just put blackened gouges in the armor.-- LWF 12:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
As I understand, EFPs cannot pierce heavy armour, e.g. the front armour of a MBT's turret; as the quote says, it was hit in a weak spot. Just because you can destroy a tank by throwing a grenade in open hatch, you don't say grenades are a danger to heavy armour.-- Victor falk 13:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Weapons will also be tailored to the particular operation. If a directional explosive is needed,the terrorist could make use of available military models of anti-tank and anti-personnel mines. Conversely, the terrorist may determine that a mine would be detected by the target'ssecurity force en route to the attack, and he therefore needs to build or obtain an alternative device. To illustrate, even counting the warheads of anti-ship cruise missiles, there was not a readily available weapon for the attack on the USS Cole. No one manufactures a half-ton C-4 platter charge configured to fit in a small boat, but that was exactly what the terrorist's plan required. Therefore it was exactly what the terrorist group built. Additionally, Operation Iraqi Freedom has demonstrated the terrorists' ability to construct a variety of IEDs that are effective, yet are easily emplaced and difficult to detect by military forces. source: (pdf): http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/army/guidterr/app_c.pdf -- Victor falk 22:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC).
I have requested a citation for the claim that Alfred Herrhausen was killed by and EFP. I am pretty sure that it was actually a platter charge, which is similar, but not the same. Also I have requested a citation on the claim that Hezbollah used them in the '06 war. I am pretty sure that there is something out there, but I don't know where. If Hezbollah is using actual EFP's, and not platter charges, then we return to the question of where they get them from. It is a germane question from a technical perspective, because either these devices are easy to make, and can be assembled readily, or they require a degree of proficiency. If the former, then surely they are the largest emerging threat. If the latter then they are usually a product of a state or a professional organization. Which in turn, with respect to Hezbollah, raises Iran.
I have a proposal that should be both verifiable, and not violate the NPOV rule. Perhaps a section on countries that are developing EFP's could be added. Then reports stating that Iran is passing such weapons to Hezbollah, or insurgent groups within Iraq could be brought up as just that, reports. If we begin discounting reports because we dislike their politics, we run the risk of violating the NPOV, and simultaneously eliminate our greatest source of information. After all, if we through out all information from 'this administration' then what about meteorological data, or overhead imagery, or highway closures for that matter. We would then only be able to get information from opposition, which would clearly be a violation of NPOV. If we present reports, as reports, we should be fine.
Lorinhobenson 13:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Image:ExFiPro-balanced.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 03:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
The recently added text starting "An EFP eight inches" seems to be a direct copy of the Washington Post footnoted article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/30/AR2007093001675_5.html. Does this meet fair use requirements? Burt Harris ( talk) 21:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
After going off and reading the linked disambiguation article on standoff, I have not the slightest clue what this is supposed to mean in this article. How far away, exactly is "stand off" distance? 1 meter? 10 meters? Is it the distance you can run before whatever detonates? DMahalko ( talk) 02:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
The article says explosively formed penetrators were formed in WWII yet the citation does not go to a specific article, there is no further information and I have never seen any source saying that EFPs were used in WWII. Clarification needed. Kbog ( talk) 03:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
-- Gary Dee 18:32, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Explosively formed penetrator. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 21:55, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
The example given from The Terminal List is excessively descriptive of the plot of the show. Anyone coming to this Wikipedia article for encyclopedic information on EFPs may be unintentionally exposed to plot details that do not substantially increase understanding about EFPs.
Simply stating that an EFP was an important plot element of The Terminal List might be appropriate for this article, but not the extra details about how and why it was used. 47.6.83.115 ( talk) 20:06, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
"'In popular culture' sections should be avoided unless the subject has had a well-cited and notable impact on popular culture."BilCat ( talk) 23:10, 28 August 2022 (UTC)