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Can someone decipher this article and write something that isn't verbatim from Mormon canon? Such language doesn't really have a place in Wikipedia, anyways (unless it were to be clearly quoted). Praetorian42 18:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed some bits that weren't relevant to Mormonism. They probably fit better before the page was renamed to be specific to Mormonism, but don't now. They didn't seem significant enough to go back on the disambiguation page. Wesley 17:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Amem....i've slowly been working on one that's not so blatantly out of LDS publications, but I dont always have time to deal with the morons here who will fight an accurate article on this issue dispite how well its sourced. Check my user page and see my sandbox, and see if you can edit my sandbox version...and have at it Alienburrito ( talk) 01:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Havent been here in a while..had forgotten how much this work this article needs..indeed sounds like much of it is out of church promo material...
Alienburrito ( talk) 09:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
The 1st para reads:
So... How can I "believe" something if I don't really know what's its meaning? I mean, why do they believe it?
Additionaly, how isn't its meaning defined?? Well, in some point, somebody had to add it to the church's creed, were Smith, his son, or whoever. Did he merely say "Mankind, as spirit children of God, can become like him. Period. No, no, I won't explain it. You better had understood it the first time." ? -- euyyn 15:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Based on my understanding of the LDS belief (not gonna cite sources HERE, will do that in my sandbox version of the artifcle that i'll post about when i feel its ready) - "Exaltation is a doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints that states belivers will return to God. They also believe that as GOd's children they will become like God." I know this will be controversial, but it has basis in LDS teachings that I can site on their website - i would add "LDS leaders have taught over the years that this idea of being God's children and becoming Like god is literal - we were literaly born to God in heaven, sent to earth, and may eventually become gods ourselves, having children in heaven, and becoming the heavenly parents to those children when they enter mortal existance" - the exact wording needs some work - but there are good official citations for this. Yes, I know there are those who will not want such info published, but it IS accurate - and this IS a reference site 01:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alienburrito ( talk • contribs)
Although we aren't relating fiction, as we're talking about a belief, I think this applies. It's very interesting and gives many examples we can possibly apply to our text. -- euyyn 16:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The real reason for the reference to it being undefined is the LDS Church's policy of dancing around controversial doctrines. If you read the King FOllet sermon at http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm (hosted at Brigham Young U mind you), you'll see that the founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, taught that God was once a man, lived on an earth, and progressed to the status of deity. He also taught that we as his literal offspring may also progress to the status of deity and populate our own worlds with our own children. They know as well as anyone that if this was the 1st thing out of the missionaries' mouths, the church would be lucky to have 50 members, instead of the 8million+ they currently have. This is one of the more extreme teachings of the church, of course. There are other very unusual teachings that would turn off many prospective members. A good example is their temple endowment. Members are encouraged to go to the temple to receive their endowments (the term is a referens to being endowed with power from on high). At best, they will tell you that in the temple they learn certain things that enable them to pass the angels that stand as guards at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom, as well as be sealed to their families for eternity, and to do these same things for their dead relatives. WHen it boils down to it, the endowment is about learning hand signs and secret handshakes and passwords, many of which appear to be stolen from Freemasonry. Up until a few years ago there were also penalties where they were made to promise that they would rather have their throats slit rather than reveal the contents of the ritual. That was slowly toned down over the years from specifically saying that they would rather have their throat slit, to just drawing the thumb across the throat from ear to ear, to being completely eliminated in the early 90s. For reference, there are recordings made surreptitiously in one of their temples on the net as well as stranscripts - see http://www.lds-temple.org Alienburrito 00:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Stormrider - please do not confuse the issue and try and accuse me of spinning and sensationalization. The King Follet discourse may not be part of LDS Scripture, but it's very clearly part of the teachings of the founder. Your commets are very typical of responses from mormon apologists who try and misrepresent the teachings of the Church. Joseph Smith was very clear about his teachings - that God was once a man, who became god, and that humans can also become Gods. I guess you can say that teachings of the founder of the LDS church aren't part of what the church refers to as the Standard Works - the Bible, The Book of Mormon, etc, but how can they not be authoritative? The Church regularly promotes themselves as not needing to rely soley on scripture and the often confusing nature of scripture, because they have a prophet who speaks for God, and can reveal clearifications, elaborations, and even new doctrine when neccesary. For example, Apostle Dalin Oaks said in the February 1995 church Magazine Ensign:
What makes us different from most other Christians in the way we read and use the Bible and other scriptures is our belief in continuing revelation. For us, the scriptures are not the ultimate source of knowledge, but what precedes the ultimate source. The ultimate knowledge comes by revelation. With Moroni we affirm that he who denieth revelation “knoweth not the gospel of Christ” (Morm. 9:8).
The word of the Lord in the scriptures is like a lamp to guide our feet (see Ps. 119:105), and revelation is like a mighty force that increases the lamp’s illumination manyfold. We encourage everyone to make careful study of the scriptures and of the prophetic teachings concerning them and to prayerfully seek personal revelation to know their meaning for themselves. [1]
It's very clear that the LDS Church teaches that they rely on more than just scripture for their teachings, that they beleive that they have prophets that recieve revelations from God, and those teachings are also accepted even if they aren't part of the Scriptures. Frankly, Stormrider, your edits and comments are standard LDS spin for outsiders, dancing around the true teachings of the church to avoid turning off ousiders. My edits elaborating on the teachings of Joseph Smith and other LDS Prophets will continue. Alienburrito 21:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Alienburrito
Well, as long as at least some of the quote from the King Follet sermon stays there, I won't mess with it without discussing it. Thanks for leaving at least some of it there, stormrider. I do wonder though, if the orthodox commenter over on the theosis discussion page isnt right, should we move the details of the LDS concept of exaltation here? but at least add a "see also" entry? I know i've discussed the LDS beliefs with people, only to have the concept of theosis pointed out, so i think it would be a good idea to at least point people to a page about it. Alienburrito 23:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Wait - let me get this straight stormrider - I'm unoriginal and parroting someone when I say they might have a good point? So if i end up saying that YOU have a legitimate point, will i be parroting you? Will I be unoriginal? I've been posting some of my thoughts here, and on you're page, because to be honest you and I have had a disagreement, and it seemed this page might be a good place to get some input from several people, not just you. I didn't realize seeking the input of someone besides you would be a problem. The orthodox poster over on Theosis had a really good point - that the LDS view might not belong there. The LDS view should be discussed somewhere, perhaps here in Exaltation (LDS Church), with at least a "see also" link. I suggest at least linking the 2 topics if they're put into separate entries because I've had discussions before with LDS where the 2 concepts were linked.
Alienburrito
00:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Stormrider - i've taken a few days off, and reread some of you're comments. I'm flabbergasted at your continued dishonesty. It's very clear that the King Follet sermon teaches about the concept of exaltation. And remember, this sermon was from Joseph Smith Jr, the prophet who started the LDS church. Your insistence that it refers to the nature of God with no reference to the concept of exaltation is blatantly false, apparently deliberately so. If my edits were sensational, its because the teachings of the church are sensational. It's become very clear that your edits here are deliberate attempts to stir up trouble. Alienburrito 07:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
References
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alienburrito/Exaltation_%28LDS_Church%29#Ordinances
comments please, and please help me fill in the small number of missing citations
Alienburrito 07:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
SeSMITH - interesting - that's a twist on the topic I've never run across before. 2 twists actually. In all the years i've been reading up on this subject, I've never run across anything that indicates the lds beloeve you can get into the Celestial Kingdom without the temple marriage. One caveat on that though, I have a vague recall of reading that perhaps people from the lower kingdoms might be servents to those in the Celestial kingdom.
As far as equating the Celestial Kingdom with Exaltation, you do have a good point now that I think about it. I suppose once you get to the Celestial Kingdom, eternally progressing past that point is optional and totally up to the individual. I can't think of a reference in LDS literature though that makes the distinction. Then again, of course, most of their public material these days deliberately vague on points like this.
I'll do some digging, and I'd apreciate it if you would too, to find some references somewhere for this. Alienburrito 21:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Well, I've always assumed the word Deity = the word God. First let's start with a couple key quotes from the King Follet discourse.
"We have imagined that God was God from all eternity....God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.....And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves" - What other conclusion is there to draw from that, than literal progression to the same basic status as God The Father?
Next, let's go to Brigham Young: "What, is it possible that the Father of Heights, the Father of our spirits, could reduce himself and come forth like a man? Yes, he was once a man like you and I are and was once on an earth like this, passed through the ordeal you and I pass through. He had his father and his mother and he has been exalted through his faithfulness, and he is become Lord of all. He is the God pertaining to this earth. He is our Father. He begot our spirits in the spirit world. They have come forth and our earthly parents have organized tabernacles for our spirits and here we are today. That is the way we came."
The above is from "The Essential Brigham Young" - page 138 - Can't find this online at the moment. I don't see how you can make that mean anything other than our God was once mortal, and became God. We, being his children - with a promise from God's Prophets like Smith and Young that we can become Gods, how can it mean anything other than we eventually will be Gods of our own words, or at least all of us have that potential, even though only some of us do reach that level?>\
Then let's go to the current Prophet of the LDS Church, Gordon B. Hinckley, in Don’t Drop the Ball, Ensign, Nov 1994, he said "On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood." This is pretty blunt. To be honest, what's problematic here stormrider is YOUR refusal to admit to this publically. I know President Hinckley has said publically on Larry King and in other interviews he does't really know what the whole "as God is, man may become" thing means, but at the same time he comes right out and says what it means in church publications. That the whole of the gospel is geared toward our progression to Godhood.
Again stormrider, what the problem here is not my misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy, but your doing the Church's PR work for them here. Publically the church says one thing, that "they're not clear what it means" but amongst themselves the church leaders say it means "that men may become Gods". Wikipedia policy IS very clear about PR material, stormrider. Your discussion here has been very clarly mimicing President Hinckley's, saying the Godhood thing is sensationalism in one place, then turning around and saying it IS church doctrine in another place. I'll back off on the word "literal" if you behave yourself stormrider. One warning should be enough.
Alienburrito 07:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Well, like Storm Rider I don't really understand what you're overall driving at Alienburrito with your last edits, unless it's to pursue some sort of agenda to make things sound more sensational. Please enlighten us. The reason for my confusion is this: you take statements of LDS leaders and read things into them that aren't there—you're interpreting what they say using your own background and knowledge—which is fine in your personal everyday life or religious life—but a neutral WP editor would strive to summarise and report the doctrine or teachings of Mormonism without embellishment, speculation, or editorial comment. Certainly a neutral editor would not assume bad faith on the part of LDS leaders, as you appear to do with Hinckley.
Quite simply, unless we can find a decent citation that says men become 'deities' (not 'gods') or that exalted beings create and rule other worlds, we don't assume that that's what the doctrine or teachings mean, even if we personally suspect that they do mean that. We find quotes that say men can become gods—great!—that's what we put in the article. All your quotes above have shown is that (1) men can become gods and (2) God the Father was once a man and became God. We can put that in the article. Everything else you say about Hinckley being duplicitous and "how can it mean anything other than we eventually will be Gods of our own words"—this is all speculation and interpretation. WP is all about an accurate reporting of sources, not speculating on what they might mean.
I know you don't want a lecture, but I think Storm Rider has been trying to promote what he genuinely feels is a NPOV, and I think you may be attributing bad faith to him, which is a
WP no-no. He will be the first to admit that he and I certainly haven't agreed about every single issue on WP involving the LDS Church and Mormonism, but I think it's unfair to accuse him/her of "doing the church's PR work". From what I saw on this page, before he lost it there he was making constructive comments in working to a consensus. No single person's approach makes the best WP article, and that's why we need to work together to create neutral content, and I think that's his position too. I value his work and I find whether or not he personally 'publically acknowledges' an LDS doctrine on a WP talk page completely irrelevant to constructing a better article. His work with me on other pages is evidence that people with completely different personal opinions about Mormonism can produce quality NPOV articles about the things they disagree about. –
SESmith
09:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
It is also not a place to tell the world what Mormons really believe; that would be a various websites like that venerable site of neutrality www.exmormon.netor my good friend John Ankerbert.
Alienburrito 22:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Whoa, leave for a little while and you lose all track of who's saying what. I agree that we should resolve to not interject comments within others' comments to avoid confusion. For much of the dialogue above, I don't know if its Storm Rider or Alienburrito writing!
I'm encouraged by your resolve to search for sources Alienburrito. I'll be anxious to see what you come up with for "ruling other worlds", because I certainly have never seen anything of a reliable nature regarding this. Usually it's written by people who learn about the "men become gods" concept and then immediately jump to the conclusion of "WOW--Mormons believe you will be a god and create your own worlds with purple dinosaurs and crap!". I don't think concepts like that are in any way part of the doctrine or teachings of the LDS Church. – SESmith 22:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
That is both the danger and the strength of "spin"; a kernal of truth is there, but the context has changed. Another one is "Mormons believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus"; it is an accurate statement of LDS belief, but LDS don't use that language. More importantly, there is no reason given for the belief; the scriptural support for it.
I think we talked about it before, but it is an adept comparison. We do not talk about Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, or any other orthodox group that believes the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Jesus as being cannibals, peoples who drink the blood of their God on a weekly basis or chew on his flesh. Anyone who reads the Old Testament finds that the prophets of old were not a warm, fuzzy group of benevelent men of God. Incest, murder, adultery, etc.: these were the qualities of the covenant people of the God of Israel. Though I disagree from a doctrinal position, I respect deeply the sacrament of the Eucharist; its holiness, its opportunity to be in union with their God. Though we can find quotes to support the blunt statements of cannibalism, it should be first presented in the way the orthodox see it and then followed by a critics point of view.
As an aside, even the Tanner's feel Decker is not a reliable source for criticism of Mormonism. He is not someone I would use much for research. Yes, I suspect you will find references and I will no problem including them. The tough part will be stating the doctrine of the church. Cheers. Storm Rider (talk)
To a certain exstent. One thing that idont get is - when we;re talking about statements made by the President of the Church (The Prophet) - how is that not doctrine of the church? Well, perhaps if a later president/prophet says something different, but i HAVE attempted to avoid that problem by find several sources for material when I can, J Smith, B Young, and also recent prophets like Benson ,McConkie, Monson, when I can, as well as find material on the church website that expresses the same idea. often material on the CHurch Website is a bit more vague than the actual prophets seem to be when they're speaking to church members. I'm not clear why that is. I have a few ideas but thats another storry altogether. Anyway - check out my profile - and the curent sandbox version of Exaltation. I suspecft you wont like it but, have a look anyway. honeslty my big worry at the moment is how to phrase the similarities between lds ordaninces and catholic sacrements. THey overlap a lot, baptism, confirmation, etc... and serve similar functions - for the lds entry in to the higher levels of the afterlife, and forthe catholic entrance into the one heaven they beleive in.02:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Alienburrito (
talk •
contribs)
Stormrider - let me add something. I've been going over some of our heated debates here. Do you really think our disagreement is not about what the LDS church TEACHES, but what the Church EMPHASISES? If so - i must ask a question i asked yesterday. If we do not disagree about what the facts are, but only on how important they are, why do you not like my edits? You seemed to have removed the vast majority of them, rather than add info about how important the were, or how much the church emphasized a particular belief. I A fact is a fact, is not, no matter how important it is? This is what makes me think you might be more concerned about not having the facts made public, than my misunderstanding of them - Alienburrito ( talk) 06:41, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Article uses the first-person plural inappropriately--thus all readers are in LDS church and are male. For example, the section on ordinances states, "We are taught to become kings and queens in God's kingdom through performing the ordinances of exaltation such as the endowment. Celestial Marriage is also part of the requirements of being exalted. It means we are married for eternity with our wives."
There are significant non-LDS and non-male populations who may find such language offensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carnalsin ( talk • contribs) 03:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Stormrider's point that we dont disagree on doctrine as we disagree on what the church emphasises, might be true. He mayu also be right that some of the points ive tried to make seem sensational - but when it boils down to it, regardless of theemphasis of the church, or regardless of how offfensive or sensational a doctrine is, The church DOES teach certain things. Stormrider's point about what the LDS refer to as the WOrd of WIsdom is a good point. In recent years they;ve empasized it more than they did in the early days of the church - but it was still ateaching of the church regardless of how important the leaders made it at any given time. I think the same applyes to some of the issues Stormrider and i have butted heads on - LDS teachings about the nature of God may seem sensational and offensive to outsiders, but the LDS prophets HAVE taught them, and as best as I can tell, still do. I've got references to Bruce McConkie making statments about the unusual nature of the LDS beleif about god that parallel J. Smith;'s teachings (smith being lds prophet #1, and McConkie being the prophet right before the current one). I would say that qualifies it enough to make it a fact, a doctrine, regardless of how much it is emphasized currently.Nother example - word of wisdom talks about takingit easy on meat except during winter, few follow that though because the church doesn't emphasis it - i'ld still say since its part of LDS Scripture its still a teaching of the church. Perhaps it might be wise to comment about the fact the church doesnt currently emphasis a specific aspect very much currently, while actually mentioning that particualr aspect. Stormrider? 03:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alienburrito ( talk • contribs)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alienburrito/Exaltation_%28LDS_Church%29
This is my attempt to make this article sound like its NOT from an official LDS church publication. There's an occasional turn of a phrase in there i'm not satisfied with, like comparing the ordaninces of the LDS church to the Catholic idea of the sacrements...
give me some suggestions —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alienburrito ( talk • contribs) 23:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
As stated above, this article has had many NPOV and tone concerns, both for and against however it had been written at the time. That said, I think it is woefully unfair to not include any reference or linking to differences with mainstream Christianity (evidenced in the articles Mormonism and Christianity and Attributes of God in Christianity). [1] The See also section should have a link to Criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And several books have similar critiques. [2] [3] There is significant scriptural reference for both positions, but the contradicting side is lengthy, and also should not be ignored.
Deaddebate ( talk) 13:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Unrelated, should citations #8 & #9 be combined? Concern is #8 alone seems very subjective, but essentially is further commentary for the very comprehensive #9.
Deaddebate ( talk) 19:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
References
There are several verbatim or nearly verbatim phrases from Millet & Reynolds. They are:
believe that human beings can grow and progress spiritually until, through the mercy and grace of Christ, they can inherit and possess "all that the Father has
a couplet written by Lorenzo Snow, [...] fifth president of the LDS Church
This doctrine is generally referred to [...] as deification [...] the LDS expression of this doctrine is often misrepresented and misunderstood
do not believe that human beings will ever be independent of God, or that they will ever cease
as God means to overcome the world through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Thus, the faithful become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, and will inherit all things just as Christ inherited all things.
they are received into the "church of the firstborn"
there are no limitations on these biblical passages and declarations; those who become as God shall inherit all things.
will receive his glory and be one with him and with the Father.
In the second century, Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons
insisted that in the beginning men
the above writers were not just
the period of the apostles and
These should be re-written per WP:CLOP to not run afoul of WP:CV. Deaddebate ( talk) 22:05, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints decided years ago to not refer to themselves as Mormons because they do not worship the previous prophet named Mormon who compiled the Book of Mormon. Because they do not worship Mormon and do not refer to themselves as Mormons, the title of this article is incorrect because Mormonism is not a thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warlord25 ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Exaltation (Mormonism) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Can someone decipher this article and write something that isn't verbatim from Mormon canon? Such language doesn't really have a place in Wikipedia, anyways (unless it were to be clearly quoted). Praetorian42 18:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed some bits that weren't relevant to Mormonism. They probably fit better before the page was renamed to be specific to Mormonism, but don't now. They didn't seem significant enough to go back on the disambiguation page. Wesley 17:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Amem....i've slowly been working on one that's not so blatantly out of LDS publications, but I dont always have time to deal with the morons here who will fight an accurate article on this issue dispite how well its sourced. Check my user page and see my sandbox, and see if you can edit my sandbox version...and have at it Alienburrito ( talk) 01:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Havent been here in a while..had forgotten how much this work this article needs..indeed sounds like much of it is out of church promo material...
Alienburrito ( talk) 09:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
The 1st para reads:
So... How can I "believe" something if I don't really know what's its meaning? I mean, why do they believe it?
Additionaly, how isn't its meaning defined?? Well, in some point, somebody had to add it to the church's creed, were Smith, his son, or whoever. Did he merely say "Mankind, as spirit children of God, can become like him. Period. No, no, I won't explain it. You better had understood it the first time." ? -- euyyn 15:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Based on my understanding of the LDS belief (not gonna cite sources HERE, will do that in my sandbox version of the artifcle that i'll post about when i feel its ready) - "Exaltation is a doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints that states belivers will return to God. They also believe that as GOd's children they will become like God." I know this will be controversial, but it has basis in LDS teachings that I can site on their website - i would add "LDS leaders have taught over the years that this idea of being God's children and becoming Like god is literal - we were literaly born to God in heaven, sent to earth, and may eventually become gods ourselves, having children in heaven, and becoming the heavenly parents to those children when they enter mortal existance" - the exact wording needs some work - but there are good official citations for this. Yes, I know there are those who will not want such info published, but it IS accurate - and this IS a reference site 01:43, 19 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alienburrito ( talk • contribs)
Although we aren't relating fiction, as we're talking about a belief, I think this applies. It's very interesting and gives many examples we can possibly apply to our text. -- euyyn 16:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The real reason for the reference to it being undefined is the LDS Church's policy of dancing around controversial doctrines. If you read the King FOllet sermon at http://mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm (hosted at Brigham Young U mind you), you'll see that the founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, taught that God was once a man, lived on an earth, and progressed to the status of deity. He also taught that we as his literal offspring may also progress to the status of deity and populate our own worlds with our own children. They know as well as anyone that if this was the 1st thing out of the missionaries' mouths, the church would be lucky to have 50 members, instead of the 8million+ they currently have. This is one of the more extreme teachings of the church, of course. There are other very unusual teachings that would turn off many prospective members. A good example is their temple endowment. Members are encouraged to go to the temple to receive their endowments (the term is a referens to being endowed with power from on high). At best, they will tell you that in the temple they learn certain things that enable them to pass the angels that stand as guards at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom, as well as be sealed to their families for eternity, and to do these same things for their dead relatives. WHen it boils down to it, the endowment is about learning hand signs and secret handshakes and passwords, many of which appear to be stolen from Freemasonry. Up until a few years ago there were also penalties where they were made to promise that they would rather have their throats slit rather than reveal the contents of the ritual. That was slowly toned down over the years from specifically saying that they would rather have their throat slit, to just drawing the thumb across the throat from ear to ear, to being completely eliminated in the early 90s. For reference, there are recordings made surreptitiously in one of their temples on the net as well as stranscripts - see http://www.lds-temple.org Alienburrito 00:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Stormrider - please do not confuse the issue and try and accuse me of spinning and sensationalization. The King Follet discourse may not be part of LDS Scripture, but it's very clearly part of the teachings of the founder. Your commets are very typical of responses from mormon apologists who try and misrepresent the teachings of the Church. Joseph Smith was very clear about his teachings - that God was once a man, who became god, and that humans can also become Gods. I guess you can say that teachings of the founder of the LDS church aren't part of what the church refers to as the Standard Works - the Bible, The Book of Mormon, etc, but how can they not be authoritative? The Church regularly promotes themselves as not needing to rely soley on scripture and the often confusing nature of scripture, because they have a prophet who speaks for God, and can reveal clearifications, elaborations, and even new doctrine when neccesary. For example, Apostle Dalin Oaks said in the February 1995 church Magazine Ensign:
What makes us different from most other Christians in the way we read and use the Bible and other scriptures is our belief in continuing revelation. For us, the scriptures are not the ultimate source of knowledge, but what precedes the ultimate source. The ultimate knowledge comes by revelation. With Moroni we affirm that he who denieth revelation “knoweth not the gospel of Christ” (Morm. 9:8).
The word of the Lord in the scriptures is like a lamp to guide our feet (see Ps. 119:105), and revelation is like a mighty force that increases the lamp’s illumination manyfold. We encourage everyone to make careful study of the scriptures and of the prophetic teachings concerning them and to prayerfully seek personal revelation to know their meaning for themselves. [1]
It's very clear that the LDS Church teaches that they rely on more than just scripture for their teachings, that they beleive that they have prophets that recieve revelations from God, and those teachings are also accepted even if they aren't part of the Scriptures. Frankly, Stormrider, your edits and comments are standard LDS spin for outsiders, dancing around the true teachings of the church to avoid turning off ousiders. My edits elaborating on the teachings of Joseph Smith and other LDS Prophets will continue. Alienburrito 21:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Alienburrito
Well, as long as at least some of the quote from the King Follet sermon stays there, I won't mess with it without discussing it. Thanks for leaving at least some of it there, stormrider. I do wonder though, if the orthodox commenter over on the theosis discussion page isnt right, should we move the details of the LDS concept of exaltation here? but at least add a "see also" entry? I know i've discussed the LDS beliefs with people, only to have the concept of theosis pointed out, so i think it would be a good idea to at least point people to a page about it. Alienburrito 23:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Wait - let me get this straight stormrider - I'm unoriginal and parroting someone when I say they might have a good point? So if i end up saying that YOU have a legitimate point, will i be parroting you? Will I be unoriginal? I've been posting some of my thoughts here, and on you're page, because to be honest you and I have had a disagreement, and it seemed this page might be a good place to get some input from several people, not just you. I didn't realize seeking the input of someone besides you would be a problem. The orthodox poster over on Theosis had a really good point - that the LDS view might not belong there. The LDS view should be discussed somewhere, perhaps here in Exaltation (LDS Church), with at least a "see also" link. I suggest at least linking the 2 topics if they're put into separate entries because I've had discussions before with LDS where the 2 concepts were linked.
Alienburrito
00:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Stormrider - i've taken a few days off, and reread some of you're comments. I'm flabbergasted at your continued dishonesty. It's very clear that the King Follet sermon teaches about the concept of exaltation. And remember, this sermon was from Joseph Smith Jr, the prophet who started the LDS church. Your insistence that it refers to the nature of God with no reference to the concept of exaltation is blatantly false, apparently deliberately so. If my edits were sensational, its because the teachings of the church are sensational. It's become very clear that your edits here are deliberate attempts to stir up trouble. Alienburrito 07:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
References
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alienburrito/Exaltation_%28LDS_Church%29#Ordinances
comments please, and please help me fill in the small number of missing citations
Alienburrito 07:01, 30 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
SeSMITH - interesting - that's a twist on the topic I've never run across before. 2 twists actually. In all the years i've been reading up on this subject, I've never run across anything that indicates the lds beloeve you can get into the Celestial Kingdom without the temple marriage. One caveat on that though, I have a vague recall of reading that perhaps people from the lower kingdoms might be servents to those in the Celestial kingdom.
As far as equating the Celestial Kingdom with Exaltation, you do have a good point now that I think about it. I suppose once you get to the Celestial Kingdom, eternally progressing past that point is optional and totally up to the individual. I can't think of a reference in LDS literature though that makes the distinction. Then again, of course, most of their public material these days deliberately vague on points like this.
I'll do some digging, and I'd apreciate it if you would too, to find some references somewhere for this. Alienburrito 21:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Well, I've always assumed the word Deity = the word God. First let's start with a couple key quotes from the King Follet discourse.
"We have imagined that God was God from all eternity....God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.....And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves" - What other conclusion is there to draw from that, than literal progression to the same basic status as God The Father?
Next, let's go to Brigham Young: "What, is it possible that the Father of Heights, the Father of our spirits, could reduce himself and come forth like a man? Yes, he was once a man like you and I are and was once on an earth like this, passed through the ordeal you and I pass through. He had his father and his mother and he has been exalted through his faithfulness, and he is become Lord of all. He is the God pertaining to this earth. He is our Father. He begot our spirits in the spirit world. They have come forth and our earthly parents have organized tabernacles for our spirits and here we are today. That is the way we came."
The above is from "The Essential Brigham Young" - page 138 - Can't find this online at the moment. I don't see how you can make that mean anything other than our God was once mortal, and became God. We, being his children - with a promise from God's Prophets like Smith and Young that we can become Gods, how can it mean anything other than we eventually will be Gods of our own words, or at least all of us have that potential, even though only some of us do reach that level?>\
Then let's go to the current Prophet of the LDS Church, Gordon B. Hinckley, in Don’t Drop the Ball, Ensign, Nov 1994, he said "On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood." This is pretty blunt. To be honest, what's problematic here stormrider is YOUR refusal to admit to this publically. I know President Hinckley has said publically on Larry King and in other interviews he does't really know what the whole "as God is, man may become" thing means, but at the same time he comes right out and says what it means in church publications. That the whole of the gospel is geared toward our progression to Godhood.
Again stormrider, what the problem here is not my misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy, but your doing the Church's PR work for them here. Publically the church says one thing, that "they're not clear what it means" but amongst themselves the church leaders say it means "that men may become Gods". Wikipedia policy IS very clear about PR material, stormrider. Your discussion here has been very clarly mimicing President Hinckley's, saying the Godhood thing is sensationalism in one place, then turning around and saying it IS church doctrine in another place. I'll back off on the word "literal" if you behave yourself stormrider. One warning should be enough.
Alienburrito 07:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Well, like Storm Rider I don't really understand what you're overall driving at Alienburrito with your last edits, unless it's to pursue some sort of agenda to make things sound more sensational. Please enlighten us. The reason for my confusion is this: you take statements of LDS leaders and read things into them that aren't there—you're interpreting what they say using your own background and knowledge—which is fine in your personal everyday life or religious life—but a neutral WP editor would strive to summarise and report the doctrine or teachings of Mormonism without embellishment, speculation, or editorial comment. Certainly a neutral editor would not assume bad faith on the part of LDS leaders, as you appear to do with Hinckley.
Quite simply, unless we can find a decent citation that says men become 'deities' (not 'gods') or that exalted beings create and rule other worlds, we don't assume that that's what the doctrine or teachings mean, even if we personally suspect that they do mean that. We find quotes that say men can become gods—great!—that's what we put in the article. All your quotes above have shown is that (1) men can become gods and (2) God the Father was once a man and became God. We can put that in the article. Everything else you say about Hinckley being duplicitous and "how can it mean anything other than we eventually will be Gods of our own words"—this is all speculation and interpretation. WP is all about an accurate reporting of sources, not speculating on what they might mean.
I know you don't want a lecture, but I think Storm Rider has been trying to promote what he genuinely feels is a NPOV, and I think you may be attributing bad faith to him, which is a
WP no-no. He will be the first to admit that he and I certainly haven't agreed about every single issue on WP involving the LDS Church and Mormonism, but I think it's unfair to accuse him/her of "doing the church's PR work". From what I saw on this page, before he lost it there he was making constructive comments in working to a consensus. No single person's approach makes the best WP article, and that's why we need to work together to create neutral content, and I think that's his position too. I value his work and I find whether or not he personally 'publically acknowledges' an LDS doctrine on a WP talk page completely irrelevant to constructing a better article. His work with me on other pages is evidence that people with completely different personal opinions about Mormonism can produce quality NPOV articles about the things they disagree about. –
SESmith
09:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
It is also not a place to tell the world what Mormons really believe; that would be a various websites like that venerable site of neutrality www.exmormon.netor my good friend John Ankerbert.
Alienburrito 22:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)alienburrito
Whoa, leave for a little while and you lose all track of who's saying what. I agree that we should resolve to not interject comments within others' comments to avoid confusion. For much of the dialogue above, I don't know if its Storm Rider or Alienburrito writing!
I'm encouraged by your resolve to search for sources Alienburrito. I'll be anxious to see what you come up with for "ruling other worlds", because I certainly have never seen anything of a reliable nature regarding this. Usually it's written by people who learn about the "men become gods" concept and then immediately jump to the conclusion of "WOW--Mormons believe you will be a god and create your own worlds with purple dinosaurs and crap!". I don't think concepts like that are in any way part of the doctrine or teachings of the LDS Church. – SESmith 22:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
That is both the danger and the strength of "spin"; a kernal of truth is there, but the context has changed. Another one is "Mormons believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus"; it is an accurate statement of LDS belief, but LDS don't use that language. More importantly, there is no reason given for the belief; the scriptural support for it.
I think we talked about it before, but it is an adept comparison. We do not talk about Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, or any other orthodox group that believes the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Jesus as being cannibals, peoples who drink the blood of their God on a weekly basis or chew on his flesh. Anyone who reads the Old Testament finds that the prophets of old were not a warm, fuzzy group of benevelent men of God. Incest, murder, adultery, etc.: these were the qualities of the covenant people of the God of Israel. Though I disagree from a doctrinal position, I respect deeply the sacrament of the Eucharist; its holiness, its opportunity to be in union with their God. Though we can find quotes to support the blunt statements of cannibalism, it should be first presented in the way the orthodox see it and then followed by a critics point of view.
As an aside, even the Tanner's feel Decker is not a reliable source for criticism of Mormonism. He is not someone I would use much for research. Yes, I suspect you will find references and I will no problem including them. The tough part will be stating the doctrine of the church. Cheers. Storm Rider (talk)
To a certain exstent. One thing that idont get is - when we;re talking about statements made by the President of the Church (The Prophet) - how is that not doctrine of the church? Well, perhaps if a later president/prophet says something different, but i HAVE attempted to avoid that problem by find several sources for material when I can, J Smith, B Young, and also recent prophets like Benson ,McConkie, Monson, when I can, as well as find material on the church website that expresses the same idea. often material on the CHurch Website is a bit more vague than the actual prophets seem to be when they're speaking to church members. I'm not clear why that is. I have a few ideas but thats another storry altogether. Anyway - check out my profile - and the curent sandbox version of Exaltation. I suspecft you wont like it but, have a look anyway. honeslty my big worry at the moment is how to phrase the similarities between lds ordaninces and catholic sacrements. THey overlap a lot, baptism, confirmation, etc... and serve similar functions - for the lds entry in to the higher levels of the afterlife, and forthe catholic entrance into the one heaven they beleive in.02:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Alienburrito (
talk •
contribs)
Stormrider - let me add something. I've been going over some of our heated debates here. Do you really think our disagreement is not about what the LDS church TEACHES, but what the Church EMPHASISES? If so - i must ask a question i asked yesterday. If we do not disagree about what the facts are, but only on how important they are, why do you not like my edits? You seemed to have removed the vast majority of them, rather than add info about how important the were, or how much the church emphasized a particular belief. I A fact is a fact, is not, no matter how important it is? This is what makes me think you might be more concerned about not having the facts made public, than my misunderstanding of them - Alienburrito ( talk) 06:41, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Article uses the first-person plural inappropriately--thus all readers are in LDS church and are male. For example, the section on ordinances states, "We are taught to become kings and queens in God's kingdom through performing the ordinances of exaltation such as the endowment. Celestial Marriage is also part of the requirements of being exalted. It means we are married for eternity with our wives."
There are significant non-LDS and non-male populations who may find such language offensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carnalsin ( talk • contribs) 03:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Stormrider's point that we dont disagree on doctrine as we disagree on what the church emphasises, might be true. He mayu also be right that some of the points ive tried to make seem sensational - but when it boils down to it, regardless of theemphasis of the church, or regardless of how offfensive or sensational a doctrine is, The church DOES teach certain things. Stormrider's point about what the LDS refer to as the WOrd of WIsdom is a good point. In recent years they;ve empasized it more than they did in the early days of the church - but it was still ateaching of the church regardless of how important the leaders made it at any given time. I think the same applyes to some of the issues Stormrider and i have butted heads on - LDS teachings about the nature of God may seem sensational and offensive to outsiders, but the LDS prophets HAVE taught them, and as best as I can tell, still do. I've got references to Bruce McConkie making statments about the unusual nature of the LDS beleif about god that parallel J. Smith;'s teachings (smith being lds prophet #1, and McConkie being the prophet right before the current one). I would say that qualifies it enough to make it a fact, a doctrine, regardless of how much it is emphasized currently.Nother example - word of wisdom talks about takingit easy on meat except during winter, few follow that though because the church doesn't emphasis it - i'ld still say since its part of LDS Scripture its still a teaching of the church. Perhaps it might be wise to comment about the fact the church doesnt currently emphasis a specific aspect very much currently, while actually mentioning that particualr aspect. Stormrider? 03:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alienburrito ( talk • contribs)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alienburrito/Exaltation_%28LDS_Church%29
This is my attempt to make this article sound like its NOT from an official LDS church publication. There's an occasional turn of a phrase in there i'm not satisfied with, like comparing the ordaninces of the LDS church to the Catholic idea of the sacrements...
give me some suggestions —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alienburrito ( talk • contribs) 23:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
As stated above, this article has had many NPOV and tone concerns, both for and against however it had been written at the time. That said, I think it is woefully unfair to not include any reference or linking to differences with mainstream Christianity (evidenced in the articles Mormonism and Christianity and Attributes of God in Christianity). [1] The See also section should have a link to Criticism of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And several books have similar critiques. [2] [3] There is significant scriptural reference for both positions, but the contradicting side is lengthy, and also should not be ignored.
Deaddebate ( talk) 13:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Unrelated, should citations #8 & #9 be combined? Concern is #8 alone seems very subjective, but essentially is further commentary for the very comprehensive #9.
Deaddebate ( talk) 19:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
References
There are several verbatim or nearly verbatim phrases from Millet & Reynolds. They are:
believe that human beings can grow and progress spiritually until, through the mercy and grace of Christ, they can inherit and possess "all that the Father has
a couplet written by Lorenzo Snow, [...] fifth president of the LDS Church
This doctrine is generally referred to [...] as deification [...] the LDS expression of this doctrine is often misrepresented and misunderstood
do not believe that human beings will ever be independent of God, or that they will ever cease
as God means to overcome the world through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Thus, the faithful become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, and will inherit all things just as Christ inherited all things.
they are received into the "church of the firstborn"
there are no limitations on these biblical passages and declarations; those who become as God shall inherit all things.
will receive his glory and be one with him and with the Father.
In the second century, Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons
insisted that in the beginning men
the above writers were not just
the period of the apostles and
These should be re-written per WP:CLOP to not run afoul of WP:CV. Deaddebate ( talk) 22:05, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints decided years ago to not refer to themselves as Mormons because they do not worship the previous prophet named Mormon who compiled the Book of Mormon. Because they do not worship Mormon and do not refer to themselves as Mormons, the title of this article is incorrect because Mormonism is not a thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warlord25 ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 12 February 2021 (UTC)