This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
The external links for academic societies and journals would be better suited in prose form in a new article section, perhaps one to two paragraphs long. I don't know what you would name it, but "Societies and publications" might work. Viriditas ( talk) 04:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I would like to help edit this article. I am not an expert in EP but a very keen student. I am concerned about the initial sentence, and I am requesting editors views. My point is that the opening needs to be not only simple and reader-friendly but also uncontentious (if that is possible). At present it reads:
Evolutionary psychology (EP) attempts to explain psychological traits—such as memory, perception, or language—as adaptations, that is, as the functional products of natural selection or sexual selection.
Is it fair to say that memory, perception and thinking are traditional aspects of cognitive psychology that focus on questions of mechanisms? These three aspects of cognition are basic to how we perceive the world and also subject to natural selection but there are proponents of EP who maintain that the focus of EP should be on strategic functional questions about behavioral decisions, in other words social cognition, which is a higher order of cognition more specific to our behavior. From my reading it seems that there are different EP schools of thought on this. If I am correct then surely the article should start off with a less contentious sentence? What are people’s views on this? If you agree with me then I would like to suggest that, as EP is explained in considerable detail within the article, it can start off as gently as possible with a very simple and reader-friendly sentence (providing, of course, it is not so diluted as to be actually misleading or uninformative). I have selected a few possibilities from the literature (see below):
What about the last one - any other suggestions? Granitethighs 10:09, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Science article: Markets, Religion, Community Size, and the Evolution of Fairness and Punishment. Joseph Henrich, Jean Ensminger, Richard McElreath, Abigail Barr, Clark Barrett, Alexander Bolyanatz, Juan Camilo Cardenas, Michael Gurven, Edwins Gwako, Natalie Henrich, Carolyn Lesorogol, Frank Marlowe, David Tracer, and John Ziker Science 19 March 2010: 1480-1484.
I don't know if anyone wants to incorporate this paper's findings within the article. Its a major paper in a respected journal that shows that altruism is related to our level of market incorporation and our willingingness to perform third-party punishment is related to the community size that we live in. Both findings are inconsistent with the idea that genes simply determine our level of altruism, and instead suggests that shared ideas or memes are required. 76.66.24.64 ( talk) 17:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Within the text of the article there are various sections discussing and describing disciplines related to EP. There is a general tackling of the topic in the introductory matter and then a small section on sociobiology later and other mentions of other disciplines as they emerge in the text. I think it would greatly improve the article if all this was put together (to get the bits together as much as any other reason). This would also serve to orientate those readers new to the topic but who are not quite sure where EP fits in with similar and related topics. The following is a first attempt at doing this. It takes up space but I figure if done well (I need some help here) it can replace quite a lot of the existing text (some of which is unreferenced). Could someone work with me on this?
The content of EP has derived from, on the one hand, the biological sciences (especially evolutionary theory as it relates to ancient human environments, the study of paleoanthropology and animal behavior) and, on the other, the human sciences especially psychology. Evolutionary biology as an academic discipline emerged with the modern evolutionary synthesis in the 1930s and 1940s, [1] although it was not until the 1970s and 1980s that university departments included the term evolutionary biology in their titles. Several behavioural subjects relate to this core discipline: in the 1930s the the study of animal behaviour ( ethology) emerged with the work of Dutch biologist Nikolaas Tinbergen and Austrian biologists Konrad Lorenz and Karl von Frisch. In the 1970s two major branches developed from ethology. Firstly, the study of animal social behavior (including humans) generated sociobiology, defined by its pre-eminent proponent Edward O. Wilson in 1975 as "the systematic study of the biological basis of all social behavior" [2] and in 1978 as "the extension of population biology and evolutionary theory to social organization". [3] Secondly, there was behavioral ecology which placed less emphasis on social behavior by focusing on the ecological and evolutionary basis of both animal and human behavior.
From psychology there there are the primary streams of developmental, social and cognitive psychology. Establishing some measure of the relative influence of genetics and environment on behavior has been at the core of behavioral genetics and its variants, notably studies at the molecular level that examine the relationship between genes, neurotransmitters and behavior. Dual inheritance theory (DIT), developed in the late 1970s and early 1980s, has a slightly different perspective by trying to explain how human behavior is a product of two different and interacting evolutionary processes: genetic evolution and cultural evolution. DIT is a "middle-ground" between much of social science, which views culture as the primary cause of human behavioral variation, and human sociobiology and evolutionary psychology which view culture as an insignificant by-product of genetic selection. [4]
Granitethighs 01:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I have incorporated the above text since it does not seem to have offended anyone. I have also made the statement of principles as simple as I can. I would like to do more editing - for example there is now repetition in the explanations of what EP is. Also there are some eccentricities in this particular article like citing, or rather naming, in the lead a whole lot of practitioners of the discipline: this could be done I think in a simpler and more digestible way for the reader. There is a bit more possible copyediting too ... what do you think? Granitethighs 12:05, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I think it is time to start fleshing out some of the additional topic areas noted on the EP Temp page (see link at the top of this page) and adding them to the main page. I'll start doing so -- others' help with these new contributions would be appreciated.
* 7.1 Survival (already there) * 7.2 Mating (already there) * 7.3 Parenting (add) * 7.4 Kinship (add) * 7.5 Group living (add)
* 8.1 Cognitive psychology (add) * 8.2 Social psychology (add) * 8.3 Developmental psychology (add) * 8.4 Personality psychology (add) * 8.5 Clinical psychology (add) * 8.6 Cultural psychology (add)
Memills ( talk) 16:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Evolution is discussed in the Evolution article, do you really need to add an extra section to introduce evolution again in this article, couldn't it just be put in a link in the see also section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ollyoxenfree ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a bit of an edit war going on as to whether or not the word "explains" or "examines" should be used in the first sentence of the introductory paragraph:
Evolutionary psychology (EP) [explains/examines] psychological traits—such as memory, perception, or language—as adaptations, that is, as the functional products of natural selection or sexual selection.
Using the term "examines" is more appropriate, IMO. Using the term "explains" seems a bit presumptuous. Certainly, there are those who would contest the notion that EP actually "explains" what it purports to, (i.e., "psychological traits...as adaptations"). There is a certain POV "ring" to such a claim. However, it would not seem so controversial to state that EP "examines" psychological traits in such a manner. Whether or not EP actually "explains" what it does indeed "examine" from a particular perspective should be left up to the reader to decide and not merely presumed in the article's opening statement. Thus, using the word "examines" would be more conducive to NPOV. EPM ( talk) 14:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
How about "would explain" or "describes" or "considers...to be"? It's about how EP refers to "psychological traits"; not what it does with them (i.e. "examines") — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekimiheart ( talk • contribs) 07:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
The recent edits Ekimiheart ( talk · contribs) have several problems that mean that they cannot be introduced in the form that Ekimiheart wants. They are out of encyclopedic style, containing much hyperbole and editorializing about the way evolutionary psychology relates to other branches of psychology. It also refers to wikipedia which isnot permissible. It seems that Ekimiheart has much knowledge about and interest in the topic, but we require attention to the encyclopedic style of the material included as well. ·Maunus·ƛ· 19:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
RESPONSE: First, let me apologize for not knowing that you cannot refer to Wikipedia in an article. But I wanted to use a definition of "hard" and "soft" science to make my point and felt it would be more appreciated if I use the definition from Wikipedia in doing this. I could have easily found another definition on the web for the same purpose. But, given that Wiki articles routinely link to other Wiki articles, I didn't see the problem in doing so and then using what was said within that article to make my point. How would this have been done to be in compliance with the expectations of Wiki editors? Is it just that I said "Wikipedia" in the article, and could have done what I did exactly had I not said "Wikipedia"? I'm all ears, as this should certainly be an easy issue to rectify.
Now more to the meat of the issue: To make this discussion of what I had inserted productive, it is imperative (especially when dealing with a science site) to be specific. To use general terms like "encyclopedic style", "hyperbole" and "editorializing" does little good without specifying the particular phrase or word choice that is the problem. It would allow me to simply assert "I did not use hyperbole" --and where does that leave us? So let us start with "hyperbole". Could you specify a particular phrase where you perceive hyperbole being used? I do know I took pains to admit the current limitations of the new science through use limiting words such as "attempts", "merely", "limited", etc. (I might gently remind the editors that simply describing an elephant as "large" is not hyperbole.) I don't assert what EP does ---only what it is attempting to do, in overview, within the larger context of natural science. And, it would disingenuous to obfuscate the fact that EP is, at least, attempting to do very "large" things.
Two additional points I probably should make at the outset.
First, I thought my comments were consistent with both the "revolutionary" aspect of Wikipedia (Be Bold!); but also with the proper placement within an "Overview" section --the term directing one to go beyond mere description (as is the character of each opening section) to a deeper "putting it all into the larger perspective" approach. This is especially important for the new science given the intense confusion regarding its logical placement within the broader Natural Science category of Biology (i.e. as a branch of Primatology).
Second, I had sent the EP Overview page including my edits (and before it had been reverted) to Frans DeWaal, who is one of the most well-known and respected primatologists in the world (and who has written extensively about Evolutionary Psychology and its connection to Primatology). He read through my comments and found them "very interesting". He apparently didn't see any particular inappropriateness about my description of the science in an Overview page of an encyclopedic article.
I eagerly await a response, but I have never gone through this process before so I might come off as rather awkward at the outset. I'll probably do "what just isn't done", many times over before I get the gist of this. Ekimiheart ( talk) 18:53, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
"Stone age solutions to depression"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Phenylalanine ( talk • contribs) 22:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
"evolutionary psychology. Founded in the late 1980s in the ashes of sociobiology, this field asserts that behaviors that conferred a fitness advantage during the era when modern humans were evolving are the result of hundreds of genetically based cognitive "modules" preprogrammed in the brain."
http://www.newsweek.com/id/202789
So you experts may want to add "EP studies behaviors that conferred a fitness advantage during the era when modern humans were evolving" or something. Anyway, IMHO good article explaining EP and what is wrong with it. Or maybe this link belongs to controversies page? Please do as you feel right and remove this.
I thought we went through this 3 years ago, but anyway... New material has been added, please take a look. My view is that the material added, a philosophical criticism of a science, seems to put too much weight on the view of philosophers (I think I said such a thing a few years back). What do others think? Dbrodbeck ( talk) 13:13, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
The article states:
"Evolutionary psychology (EP) is an approach within psychology that examines psychological traits — such as memory, perception, or language — from a Darwinian evolutionary perspective."
Can some expert on the subject please be more specific about what "from a Darwinian perspective" means? Does it imply that everything about the makeup of present-day human nature is assumed by evolutionary psychologists to be the result of natural selection, and that no other causes are tolerated? (Because if so, that is quite notable -- and if not, it's probably worth clarifying that it's not the case.) As an ignorant outsider, I for one, would be grateful to learn more about this. Thanks. Daqu ( talk) 17:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I am having an issue with the first statement: "Evolutionary psychology (EP) is an approach within psychology that examines psychological traits — such as memory, perception, or language — from a modern evolutionary perspective." I am sure this is how EP's would view it, but it sounds as if ALL 'modern evolutionary perspectives' would necessarily concur with the approach taken by EP. In other words, it would appear that the general and less contested theory of "evolution" is being used in this sentence to bolster support for EP, which is a certain take on evolutionary ideas, focusing on adaptive selection while making certain assumptions about the 'mind' - assumptions much disputed by academics that may very well support the standard theory of evolution. Logic prevails ( talk) 16:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
According to Lawrence Shapiro in the Rutledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (a peer reviewed encyclopedia in Philosophy), there is a dispute as to whether this field can be considered as a science. "Critics have objected that evolutionary psychology is untestable because hypotheses about the EEA cannot be tested, that evolutionary psychology is adaptationist to a fault, and that commitment to the existence of a human nature is inconsistent with evolutionary theory." -- DoostdarWKP ( talk) 04:54, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The discussion is about inclusion of the following text in the controversy section of this article: According to Stephen M. Downes in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "There is a broad consensus among philosophers of science that evolutionary psychology is a deeply flawed enterprise." [1]. Two editors believe that this should not be included, even in one sentence in the controversy section of this article because philosophy is not part of the science, and of a previous consensus not to do so. Discussion can be found at Talk:Evolutionary_psychology#recently_expanded_controversy_section. DoostdarWKP ( talk) 13:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
.*comment I don't believe there is any sensible way to distinguish sharply between scientific topics and other topics. And even if there were, philosophy of science would still be relevant to scientific topics. Thirdly there is no reason I can see that evolutionary psychology should be considered more scientific than othert kinds of psychology. And yes, according to our policies when we treat the topic of Evolutionary psychology we should include all relevant viewpoints- not just the "scientific" ones, whatever that is supposed to mean. ·Maunus·ƛ· 17:10, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
As I noted in the previous section above:
Further, the specific passage that is being argued for inclusion here is not based on any empirical evidence (e.g., a survey of philosophers), and it is contradicted by other philosophers who believe that EP is on a "firm grounding." The debate among philosophers may be interesting, but it is not appropriate for the Evolutionary Psychology main page. However, it would be appropriate for inclusion in the Evolutionary Psychology Controversy page. Memills ( talk) 18:36, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
From a critical thinking perspective, the proposal under discussion basically combines two fallacies: An argument from authority (noted guy Doe says P, so P must be true) with an argumentum ad populum in the quoted assertion (many guys believe that P, so P is true). As long as this quote from Mr Downes does not include an argumentation or demonstration of why and how evolutionary psychology is a "flawed enterprise", it will just remain fallacious rhetoric. Moreover, as already pointed by others, there is a specific article dedicated to controversies about EP. Even if the quote wasn't a fallacy, its place would obviously be on that page. This said, I do find a bit unsettling that the intro of the evolutionary psychology article doesn't mention its controversial aspect: When a special page is dedicated to controversies generated by the topic of the article, a minimum would be to have the wikilinked word "controversy" in the intro. But that's admittedly another story... -- Doctorcito ( talk) 17:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
The article defines EEA without describing it. The Human evolution page doesn't describe it either. How big were the bands? What tools did they use? What social structure is presumed? That sort of thing. What is the environment that we evolved for? Would that be on some other page? Leadwind ( talk) 02:22, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
It's important to address the criticism that EP has received, to dismiss it if nothing else. Since criticism of EP gets coverage in our commonly accepted reference texts, it should get coverage here, too (per WP:WEIGHT). And if we don't address the criticism then we don't have a chance to tell the reader that EP has won out against the critics. Leadwind ( talk) 14:38, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be considerable exaggeration from some editors in this thread about how well evolutionary psychology is accepted among psychologists, not to mention how well accepted it is among other scientists who study human behavior. Try checking a source list I maintain to share with other Wikipedians for some leads to sources. Some other good sources are also mentioned above in this thread. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 23:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Actually the book has less than the 3 pages I said it had - the second page is taken up by an unrelated infobox, and only the first paragraph of the third page is about EP. The authors divide the topic into 1. the history of the evolutionary framework in psychology Darwin/James/Galton - examples of EP hypotheses of adaptive motivation for modern psychological traits - description of the critique of EP as generating untestable hypotheses - and an example of the ways in which EP has worked to get around that problem. It does not suggest that EP has finally convinced its critics, but it does state that it is developing and gaining momentum as a subdiscipline within psychology.
"Evolutionary psychology explains mind and behavior in terms of the adaptive value of abilities that are preserved over time by natural selection. Evolutionary psychology has its roots in Charles Darwin’s (1809–82) theory of natural selection, which inspired William James’s functionalist approach. But it is only since the publication in 1975 of Sociobiology, by the biologist E. O. Wilson, that evolutionary thinking has had an identifiable presence in psychology. That presence is steadily increasing (Buss, 1999; Pinker, 1997a; Tooby & Cosmides, 2000)." (p. 26)
"Critics of the evolutionary approach point out that many current traits of people and other animals probably evolved to serve different functions than those they currently serve. ... Complications like these have lead the critics to wonder how evolutionary hypotheses can ever be tested (Coyne, 2000; Sterelny & Griffiths, 1999). Testing ideas about the evolutionary origins of psychological phenomena is indeed a challenging task, but not an impossible one (Buss, Haselton, Shackelford, Bleske, & Wakefield, 1998; Pinker, 1997b). Evolutionary psychologists hold that behaviors or traits that occur universally in all cultures are good candidates for evolutionary adaptations." (p. 26-27)
This is pretty much the core of what they say about EP - they present a couple of examples of how EP has linked psychological traits with adaptive functions, and they mention that "evolutionary psychologists are becoming more inventive" in their attempts to test adaptive hypotheses. One example is studies that link certain psychological or physical traits to reproductive succes directly. It is clear that the main criticism they see is the fact that adaptive hypotheses are difficult and often impossible to test - they say as much. This is what has prompted critiques of EP being simply a framework for generating just so stories rather than an actually scientific endeavor. If the article mentions just one critique of EP then this should be it - just as. The possible ethical implications are not nearly as important.
Folks keep hating on the information I added from EBO, which says that EP has been criticized. From comments, it sounds like editors think I'm criticizing EP, but read the material again (or read it in the original on EBO). It's a demonstrable fact that critics have accused EP of being a right-wing conspiracy. We can neutrally state as much. EP is at the point at which it's safe to acknowledge the criticism because EP has won out. Let's not hide from the fact that EP has been criticized. Let's embrace it. The academic left has been trying to shout down EP for 30 years and has failed. That's a story worth telling.
Maybe my wording could be clearer, but let's work with the concept rather than accept only half the material I added from EBO. Leadwind ( talk) 14:48, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
The particular passage in question seems to be the third from the bottom of the Encyclopedia Britannica (EB) article. It reads:
"One of the key criticisms of human sociobiology is borne of fear that the findings will be used to effect unfair or immoral policies. Examples include use of social Darwinism to justify discriminatory practices, economic policies that benefit relatively few at the expense of many, genocide, eugenics, and legal systems that fail to protect the vulnerable segments within populations. These potential problems suggest the need for deep ethical consideration of the implications of evolutionary psychology. Such an approach would investigate how results might be used ethically, to benefit society, or unethically, to cause harm."
Morton Shumway—
talk 22:02, 27 January 2011 (UTC).
(A little more context seems useful here. The EB article referenced in the last paragraph of the WP article lede is "social behaviour, animal." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, 2011. Web. 23 Jan. 2011 ([
[2]]).
Morton Shumway—
talk
02:09, 28 January 2011 (UTC).
Would someone kindly propose what we should say in the lead about the controversy over EP? If you don't like my attempt to summarize the controversy, please suggest an alternative treatment. Leadwind ( talk) 17:03, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
The current introductory sentence is misleading. It reads: "Evolutionary psychology (EP) is an approach within psychology that examines psychological traits — such as memory, perception, or language — from a modern evolutionary perspective." There are many critics of EP who are evolutionists and who would also claim to work from a "modern evolutionary perspective." The way it is currently worded suggests that belief in evolution naturally supports EP - a claim that critics would suggest is unfounded. Logic prevails ( talk) 15:15, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
I have been trying to edit the problematic sentence and it keeps coming back. For those looking to keep it, please present a logical rationale for doing so - one that would also consider the above criticism. Logic prevails ( talk) 19:58, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Someone in a thread above asked: "What controversy? You need a secondary source with a work focusing on evolutionary psychology and written by someone known to be an authority in the area (they would need knowledge of evolution and psychology and evolutionary psychology)."
My source is Pinker. He promotes EP, and he wrote a whole book documenting the controversy. The controversy is real, and proponents of EP know that the controversy is real. We should describe it. My latest two lines (summarily deleted) were based on his work. The book is, as requested, "a work focusing on evolutionary psychology and written by someone known to be an authority in the area."
That said, this article is in sad shape. It has an overview section, which no article should have. The lead is supposed to be the overview (see WP:LEAD). It also has an anemic section on the controversy. And the controversy page is even worse.
Listen, I understand how hard it is to summarize a contentious issue, but we have solid sources that describe the controversy, so we can describe it, too. If we stick to solid sources and summarize what they say, we can't really go wrong. Leadwind ( talk) 16:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Another critique by Susan McKinnon. I think that if we introduce such critiques there is something we have to be very careful about. Defenders of EP often respond to critics like SM that they are using political concerns to criticize science, regardless of the scientific validity of the research. But I think people like MacKinnon are arguing instead that when scientists study human behavior their science is actually often non value-free, and moreover that there are other scholars whose research is precisely on the ways forms of knowledge and forms of power can be intertwined. That is, as I interpret them, she is not claiming that EP should be disparaged because she doesn't like the political implications of the conclusions, but because it is actually bad science. In other words, advocates and critics of EP have two conflicting visions of what valid scholarly research on certain human problems is, on academic, not political, grounds. At least, that is how one side of the debate views it. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:26, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
SLR, WP policy does refer specifically to "disinterested" secondary and tertiary sources. Lots of good editors are not familiar with that usage or the policy that it relates to. I wasn't aware of it for the longest time. But it turns out that WP:WEIGHT tells us this: "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both approaches and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint." So WP is explicitly telling us to find secondary and tertiary sources with a "disinterested" viewpoint. The Psychology text is a fine example of a tertiary source the describes the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint. So is Encyclopedia Britannica. Maunus says that bad EP people use the irrelevant political attacks as a red herring, which is a fine personal conclusion for him to favor, but I'm asking him to prove it by citing a disinterested expert source. So far Maunus's reason for not wanting to mention the political controversy does not have the backing of disinterested, expert opinion. As an addendum, let me note that generally the editors who most strongly resist WP:WEIGHT are the ones who don't have the weight of expert opinion on their side. Leadwind ( talk) 17:03, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
It would help the reader understand EP if we could contrast it with another viewpoint. Can someone summarize the non-EP view? Or maybe instead we should summarize the non-EP view for each component of EP. For example, if the mind isn't the computations of the biological brain (as EP says it is), then what is it? If the brain doesn't consist of many specialized modules, what does it consist of? If language and morality didn't evolve, where did they come from? If we don't have Stone Age minds, what do we have? If our facial expressions (for example) aren't adaptations, what are they? Sometimes I hear that EP wants to replace the Freudian model of the mind, and sometimes that it wants to replace the standard social sciences model of the mind. In any event, especially if we're going to report on the criticism of EP, we should summarize the alternative view which are (reportedly) superior. Leadwind ( talk) 23:03, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
You seem to think there is one single "EP view." In fact, evolutionary psychologists propose explanations for a range of human behaviors. For example, some evolutionary psychologists have argued an evolutionary reason for male promiscuity relative to females. Most cultural anthropologists I know of reject this explanation because there is no evidence that the behavior is universal. But this is a debate over a specific behavior or pattern of behaviors and a specific explanation. If you want to know alternatives, you have to be specific about which EP explanation about which pattern of behaviors. I think one could argue that anthropology in general rejects evolutionary psychology on most matters, but this is not because anthropologists reject in its entirety the proposition that some human behaviors are instinctive and selected for by nature in the course of human evolution.. That is why you have to be precise, rather than vague. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Maunus was generous enough to tell us what a university-level textbook says about EP. Let's agree that it's our current best summary of EP, and use it to build out the article, especially the lead. As a disinterested tertiary source, this text is a good resource for addressing the controversy from a neutral point of view. Or if you don't like Psychology then volunteer a better source. Leadwind ( talk) 03:57, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Back to the suggestion that started this thread: we have a university-level textbook on the topic, and an editor has summarized its treatment for us. Let's add that material to the page. Agreed? Memill, you seem to promote a mainstream understanding of EP, so I would expect that you would want to use the most mainstream sources we have on the topic. Leadwind ( talk) 15:11, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
I think Leadwind is right to ask for reference to policy before going to an RfC. Memills, you continue to make a false analogy. The reason ID is not discussed in the Evolution talk page is because no mainstream evolutionary scientist considers Behe's claims as scientifically valid, and it is clear that manor proponents of ID are motivated by religious belief. This is not the case for criticisms of EP which as I said already are firmly within the academy. Behe has no mainstream support from any academic discipline that is concerned with human evolution. However, EP does face criticism from mainstream academic disciplines that are concerned with explaining human behavior. Your analogy simply does not hold up. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Regarding "with critics accusing it of supporting unfair or immoral policies", one of the most common criticisms accuses EP of sanctioning rape or other forms of mistreatment of women. There are tons of academic sources expressing that point of view -- here is a pointer to some of it. Looie496 ( talk) 22:45, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Since we're trying to achieve balance, and not just root for our respective sides, I've added the rest of Maunus's helpful summary to the lead. This information has helped place the theory in the history of science, so thanks, Maunus. Leadwind ( talk) 01:37, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
SLR, you say, "I think Leadwind is right to ask for reference to policy before going to an RfC." It's nice to see that you agree that editors should refer to policy (or at least that _other_ editors should). Leadwind ( talk) 16:51, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
According to WP:WEIGHT, we use commonly accepted reference texts to establish majority viewpoints, and we use disinterested secondary and tertiary sources to cover disagreements with balance. EBO is a commonly accepted reference text and a disinterested tertiary source. Therefore, we should be happy to use it to establish the majority viewpoint on EP, and to help us strike the balance between those who say we're robot ape-men and those who bravely defend egalitarianism against biological determinism (or something like that). I propose that we do what we did with the Psychology textbook and add the highlights of the EBO entry on EP to this article. I'm no professor, but I'm well-read, and I don't see any glaring errors in the EBO entry. Since it's online, it has the virtue of letting every editor follow our link and see for themselves that no tricky POV-pusher has skewed this page's representation of EP. I'd like to think that we can sort of agree to use the EBO article without reading it first because of its pedigree, but I wouldn't be surprised if one or two editors might be harboring a POV bias and can't decide whether to support my proposal until they have given the Encyclopedia Britannica their personal seal of approval. So here's the link: Evolutionary Psychology. Leadwind ( talk) 01:58, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
·Maunus·ƛ· 15:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)"Pinker’s book on the language instinct and his later book, How the Mind Works (1997), belong to a field known as evolutionary psychology. This is a movement that views the human mind as designed by natural selection. As a result, it opposes the standard social science model, according to which the mind is a general-purpose cognitive device shaped virtually in its entirety by cultural influence. In contrast, evolutionary psychology argues that the mind consists of a number of functionally specialized modules. This organization acknowledges the existence of selection pressures that acted on human Paleolithic ancestors living in small hunter-gatherer societies. Although the term instinct is lightly used in the writings of evolutionary psychologists, it is pervasively implicit in the sense of inborn propensity or innate structure. Because evolutionary psychology can be viewed as genetic reductionism that ignores the intricacies of individual development, it is vulnerable to the kinds of criticism that comparable nativist views such as that of Lorenz have been subject to in the past. There is plenty of evidence that genes can influence behaviour. However, the question of how they do so is at issue. In the past this question either was not addressed or was assumed to involve specification of developmental outcome without any contribution from interaction with contextual factors, such as might result from experience. However, this assumption fails to acknowledge the complexity of the developmental process. At all levels—from the gene in its matrix of microcellular structure to the grown organism in its physical and social environments—interaction is the rule, which can be revealed only by developmental study. Evidence of genetic basis, which has been furnished by selective breeding and by functional correlation implying natural selection, is silent about how a behavioral trait is realized in individual ontogeny (the development of an organism from conception to adulthood)."
Here's the [ diff] that Maunus and I are currently disagreeing about. Strangely he prefers no citation whatever to citing EBO. He also unilaterally removed the word "impressive" from a sentence, even though that's what the source says and it's the meat of the statement. Leadwind ( talk) 15:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
The controversies above are basically derivative of the conflict in the social sciences between cultural determinism and nature-nurture interactionism. It is easy to find references to academic authorities trashing others on the opposite side, even in textbooks and reference sources. The Stanford University Anthropology Department actually had to split apart at one time to separate these warring factions. However, the ping-ponging of these claims/counter-claims is not what this main EP page is about.
It would be appropriate to give general mention the SSSM vs. IM controversy on the EP main page. However, the specific claims/counter-claims are more appropriately hashed out on the Evolutionary_psychology_controversy page, which, obviously, is entirely devoted to those issues. Memills ( talk) 06:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I think mentioning the critics, and then mentioning the response from say someone like Pinker, would be a reasonable approach. References are needed though, rather than cherry picked ones. The problem with say going to an intro book is what intro book. So, yeah something from those mentioned might do fine I think. Dbrodbeck ( talk) 12:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
To get more input on the issues discussed above, I have added a request for peer review of these issues. Memills ( talk) 06:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
It looks like I went and confused the POV battle that you people were having. There used to be clear demarcations between those who hate EP and want to report on the controversy and those who love EP and want to exclude the controversy from coverage. Then I went and muddied the waters by saying we should report both the criticisms and the successes, using (per WP:WEIGHT) commonly accepted reference texts and disinterested secondary and tertiary sources. Now everyone's angry. Once again, I ask my fellow editors to set aside personal views and just follow WP policy to give this engaging topic the treatment that WP wants it to get.
Personally, I'm familiar with both sides. In college, I was taught from John Money's infamous textbook in which he misused the tragic life of David Reimer to argue that gender was socially constructed and not genetic. Indeed his case study proved his point with little room for doubt. I can deconstruct any behavior into cultural determinism as adeptly as the next 1970s liberal. Until it turned out that Money's case study was contrafactual, and that Reimer's life proved, if anything, that the opposite of Money's socialized-gender theory was true. I'm chagrined to have been duped, and now I buy into ev psych because it has actual evidence backing it up.
The success of ev psych has made the debate murkier. Just like creationists who now adore dinosaurs (once rejected as a paleontologist's fevered dream), the opponents of ev psych now acknowledge the power of evolution in shaping human culture and psyches. Even Gould, who once proudly denounced the idea that any individual human could have inborn predispositions for one behavior or another, had to accept that we each really do have genetic, heritable predispositions, the sort of thing that natural selection presumably acts on. All without ever admitting that his ev psych opponents had ever taught him anything. So now the opponents of ev psych proclaim the very tenets of ev psych (natural selection working on genetic predispositions) on one hand and denounce it on the other.
And the way to cut through this tangled web of shifting accusations and assertions is to follow WP policy: turn to our commonly accepted reference texts and our disinterested secondary and tertiary sources, then use them to guide out treatment of the topic. Is that too much to ask? Quite possibly. Leadwind ( talk) 17:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
And please, you have now been presented with enough evidence that this is not a debate as to whether human beings evolved through a variety of natural processes including natural selection. No one debates this (that you keep referring to an Encyclopedia Britannical article that does not exist, and ignore the book reviews and articles from peer-reviewed journals, shows that you are just making this stuff up) No one questions that humans evolved and have genes. Some scientists actually research human evolution (no Evolutionary Psychologists though - none of them have any training in evolution or genetics, and have made no contribution whatsoever to our understanding of human evolution or genetics) and others research human behaviors (and here to, the major "evolutionary psychologists" have made no real contribution ... Stephen Pinker is a linguist and has yet to demonstrate that any grammatical features are genetically determined). You once asked what the "alternative" to EP is. I guess the most concise answer is: science. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
My mistake! I thought he was a Chomsky protege. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
He was referring to "brain," - you simply said genes. Of course genetic deects can predispose behavior. As for the brain, we still have very impartial information about the brain and even fMRI research draws on relatively small samples with results that are open to interpretation. I know of no brain research that contradicts Gould. There is no research by evolutionary psychologists that demonstrates that evolved differences in the brain predispose people to different behavior. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:31, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Yup, let's just follow policy. That will take less tim thn detailing all the flaws in what you just wrote. If you have a reliable source that shows that this is a significant view among neuroscientists (and I mean, concerning humans, not rats or rhesus monkeys, and that demonstrate a clear link to a specific behavior), by all means provide the source. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
This really should be simple. You guys think EP is bunk. I ask why. Then you guys are supposed to list all the stupid, irresponsible, overreaching things that EP says. Then we find out whether those things are true or false, and with that information we could all agree on whether EP is right. But we're hung on the list of errors that EP makes because you critics are holding back. So far, "modularity" is the one aspect of EP that you're all willing to attack, but even Janksepp likes some degree of modularity. I can tell you for certain that an abstract topic such as modularity doesn't get people angry, and EP makes people angry. So please lay it out for me. If EP is wrong, I want you to prove it to me so I can correct myself. This should be a simple question for those of you convinced that EP is wrong: "What does EP say that's wrong?" Could you write a sentence that represents something EP claims but that is false? If you offer such a sentence, then we'll be able to add that straight to the page, like "EP claims X, Y, and Z, which is roundly disputed by neuroscientists," or something.
Meanwhile, I guess we should go find out what neuroscientists say about modularity. Leadwind ( talk) 13:34, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Leadwind, where did I ever say EP isn't bunk? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:06, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Logic, you said, "The examples you just gave Leadwind, are relatively uncontested examples of how genetics and biology make males and females different."
This article should probably describe the ways in which physiology confirms evolutionary psychology, such as the uncontested way that inherited traits affect gender. After all, even the people who oppose EP acknowledge that EP is right about this much: men and women are different biologically, not just physically but psychologically. I know it's controversial, and that's why it's important to state the clear case. While this information is hardly contested today, it was hotly contested as late as the 80s. Even editors who oppose EP presumably agree with it this far, so there should be no objection to documenting this finding. There's nothing about it in the lead. What should we say? Leadwind ( talk) 19:35, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Maunus deleted my comment, above. Boy howdy, that was a rude surprise. Back when I was trying to get criticism on the page, he and I worked together. Now he doesn't even want anyone to read what I have to say.
As if to demonstrate that I really am trying to work on the page, I took Andy's lead and added something about social inequality. You see, this discussion is actually leading to new information on the page. It's not just a general discussion about the merits of EP. Though I can understand why opponents of EP would like to steer clear of anything that looks like a measured, careful assessment of its merits. Leadwind ( talk) 15:38, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Is there a "warrior gene"?
This looks like a clear case of a direct link between a single gene and behavior. It also demonstrates that there's no such thing as a simple "gene for aggression" (like Andy was pointing out), just genes that interact with other genes and individual experience to affect levels of aggression. Would this web site be an RS, or could someone cite the original paper? Leadwind ( talk) 15:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Let me just point out that our article on Monoamine oxidase A (the full name of MAOA) contains quite a bit of useful information, including a discussion of the "warrior" aspect. Looie496 ( talk) 01:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
"Alas, Poor Darwin" edited by Steven Rose and his wife is an entire book dedicated to criticism of Evolutionary Psychology. Evolutionary Psychologist Robert Kurzban assesses it like this: "What makes APD worthy of attention is not that it introduces new criticisms of the field of evolutionary psychology. What makes it noteworthy is that it accumulates a cornucopia of old criticisms, recycled and rehashed, in one place. Other sources, both scholarly and popular, have leveled the same accusations, made the same mistakes, and presented the same distorted picture of the field and its practitioners." [4] This suggests that this book is a good place to start if we want to look at the recurring criticisms of EP, by its most vocal critics. He outlines five major criticism that I think also need to be mentioned in the article here: EP is a form of genetic determinism, EP thinks every aspect of human behavior is an adaption, it generates untestable hypotheses, it focuses on providing distal or ultimate explanations rather than proximate explanations that are often more informative (i.e. the difference between answering the question "Why did Joe kill his wife after she slept with Bill?" by saying "because jealousy is an evolutionary adaptation" (distal) and by saying "because he felt betrayed and desparate" (proximate)), and lastly the critique that Evolutionary claims cannot be divorced from their possible political consequences. I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet, but I will work on that. Meanwhile I think that from the critique by Kurzban I can glean some of its attributes: it probably is too shrill and selfrighteous and I think that Kurzban is probably reacting mostly to this which is why some of his dismissals of its arguments read weird - for example he just find the difference critique of the preference for distal and rather than proximate arguments to be "odd", and he doesn't even engage with the notion that all research has political implications. In any case I think it be a good source to look at. ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Does this article really need a large section (including a huge table that completely breaks up the article and impairs readability) about the generalities of evolutionary theory. I think not, a small summary would suffice, but even that seems to go off topic in an article that is specifically about Evolutionary Psychology, not about evolution. ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Dr. Mills keeps deleting the material I added about genes & behavior and about race. Let's talk about that here. Dr. Mills? Leadwind ( talk) 00:06, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a great deal topical material that needs to be added to the main EP page. Some major outline headings have been languishing on the Discussion Temp Page Talk:Evolutionary psychology/Temp for years. I have added a few of the section / sub-section headings, and added some material under each. This initial material is either from the Temp page, or from other wikipedia articles. The text of these sub-sections needs to be fleshed out, with a particular focus on contributions by evolutionary psychologists.
Let's spend a tad more effort on the main EP page to describe what evolutionary psychologists actually say, rather than what their critics say they say. Memills ( talk) 05:19, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Robert Wright offers an intriguing take on the genes-v-culture debate (in Moral Animal). While the cultural determinists (Marx, Boaz, Skinner, Rose, etc.) portray the individual as being passively shaped by culture, Wright describes the developing individual child as actively seeking out cues from the social environment to construct its own brain circuitry, language, social role, and personality. This active role on the part of the self-indoctrinating individual is most clearly seen with children picking up language. An infant doesn't just "like" baby talk. An infant actually rewards adults who use baby talk (by smiling, staring, looking so darn cute) to elicit more baby talk from them. Far from having language pressed upon it, the developing child seeks out linguistic cues from the environment in order to construct its own neural circuits accordingly, and the clever little devils start when they're still in the womb. Wright argues that much the same process happens with other aspects of one's social identity. In this view, culture isn't our way to transcend the genes' instinctive imperatives but rather culture is the genes' extended means for satisfying those imperatives. In the old debate between genes & culture, this approach seems notable. Leadwind ( talk) 15:54, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
This article is not simply a depository for information about evolutionary theory in relation to human behavior and cognition - it is only about the particular research that has been generated within Evolutionary Psychology - not in sociobiology, not in cultural ecology, not in behavioral genetics and not in cognitive biology or evolutionary anthropology, nor in generative linguistics. Evolutionary Psychology is a particular school of thought connected to names like Tooby, Buss, Cosmides, Pinker etc. Stop trying to turn this article into a general museum of human social and cognitive evolution. We are here to describe the discipline of Evolutionary Psychology, what is its history, its core assumptions, its major proponents, the most notable studies and findings, and the most notable critiques that have been levelled against it. Nothing more. ·Maunus·ƛ· 02:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
We discuss gender differences under Mating, but psychological dimorphism could be its own, big section. This aspect of EP is perhaps the most dramatic and certainly one of the most controversial. While EP focuses on how humans are all the same, the differences between men and women compose different sort of universal.
We hardly discuss status, but status hierarchies are universal in social ape societies (and we're the most social ape of all). Chimps and bonobos are able to manage complicated, shifting political alliances without words or promises, just as our ancestors presumably did until they evolved speech.
Aggression is another rich topic. Clearly men, in particular, are built to be aggressive.
The three above topics all have the virtue of contrasting EP sharply with the SSSM, in which gender is constructed without reference to instincts, aggression is an emergent property of societies but not an individual instinct, and status is said to be a bad product of a non-utopian social system.
A fourth topic might be unconscious communication. In our ancestral environment, we didn't speak, so all our communication was nonverbal. This is where we learned to size each other up and work our way through social groups: threatening, sharing, grooming, flirting, etc. It's where women evolved their amazing "mind-reading" abilities. We also evolved ways to affect and be affected by each other through chemicals: women choosing mates based on MHC, men spiking their semen with bonding hormones, counter-aggression signals in tears, bonding hormones released through cuddling, etc. These evolved, chemically mediated behaviors demonstrate that important social interactions and exchanges have a biological reality operating under the radar of conscious awareness. The SSSM has no way of explaining how culture could train people to put socially active chemicals in their bodily fluids. Leadwind ( talk) 15:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
We mention language but don't have a section on it. Whether evolution evolved is a hot topic (thanks to Chomsky). A common demonstration of the power of evolution is that infants learn speech (an evolved trait) spontaneously, while children can only learn reading and writing (not an evolved trait) through arduous drill. Language seems to be a good demonstration of EP principles: its modular, innate, and recently evolved. We even have a unique FOXP2 gene that appeared about 50 thousand years ago, corresponding roughly with the "great leap forward" and the appearance of behaviorally modern humans. Seems to be relevant to evolutionary psychology. Leadwind ( talk) 16:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
The section under "general evolutionary theory" (in the table) desperately needs fixing. Again, it is inappropriately using Darwin as a reference source - he did not necessarily support what the table says. The language is misleading. Take this:
In his 1859 book, he may have been referring to bodies, but nowhere in there does he even speculate about the 'mind.' The closest he comes, is in his chapter on animal 'instincts,' but even here, he is careful to also include discussion of the acquisition of what he calls 'habits' - essentially, learning. The above statement (and the one below it) paint him as an evolutionary psychologist, which he was not. Also, Darwin was careful not to use language such as "designed to," implying that he knew what the adaptations were for. He would occasionally make speculations, but when he did so, he backed up these speculations with painfully detailed observations of physical specimens. Logic prevails ( talk) 16:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Leadwind inserted the following:
I reverted it with this edit summary: "Any source for a single 'ancestral' culture? No, obviously not - this makes no sense". I think I was correct - it is nonsensical to suggest there was a single "ancestral culture" - that all our H-G ancestors evolved within the same cultural complex (or even the same environment). I'm not sure what "unfortunately" has to do with anything either. I've no wish to get into an edit war, so can someone please try to rewrite this in a way that makes more sense (assuming this isn't what the source is actually claiming - I've not got access to it, but it seems unlikely).
As a side issue, I'd also ask just how much research into "existing hunter-gatherer societies" has been done by proponents of EP? AndyTheGrump ( talk) 20:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
From the article:
Really? But this is precisely what Franz Boas and Ruth Benedict argued, when they developed the culture concept. They simply use the term "cultural trait" rather than "meme," and "diffuse" or "share" instead of "replicate." If evolutionary psychology ends with memetics, then it sounds like evolutionary psychologists are shrugging and saying "I guess cultural anthropology was right all along." It certainly sounds like there is a whole range of shared behaviors that are not inherited biologically and thus not the product of natural selection acting on the genome. If they mean that natural selection can act on learned behaviors, well, cultural anthropologist Julian Steward wrote volumes on just this idea in the 1930s, 40s and 50s.
Or maybe memes really are different from cultural traits. But if so, I have to ask: has anyone demonstrated the scientific validity of the concept? Mendles laws of inheritance make possible a quite precise scientific assessment of genes. Do we have anything comparable for memes? The passage says "memes replicate." Well, we know how genes replicate, using mRNA - this is observable in laboratory condistions. Is the same true for memes? Sounds like the New Coke. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Maunus, please do not remove foundational material. The passages you have deleted have been stable parts of this page for years. Review the Evolutionary Psychology textbook by Buss -- there is coverage of all of this material. EP theories are derivative of many of these broad and mid-level theories. This page should accurately present what EPers believe is their discipline, not a narrow construction of it. EP is more than just Tooby and Cosmidies -- it is a broad spectrum of researchers from a variety of disciples that use foundational evolutionary theory as a basis for understanding human nature and human behavior. It covers a wide spectrum of topics and there are divergent approaches within the field. A good place to get the sense of this is at the Human Behavior and Evolution Society (HBES) website -- this is the primary organization for EPers in the U.S. Note the HBES self-description: "HBES is a society for all those studying the evolution of human behavior. Scientific perspectives range from evolutionary psychology to evolutionary anthropology and cultural evolution; and the membership includes researchers from a range of disciplines in the social and biological sciences." Memills ( talk) 17:16, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
We've been pounding away on this article for a good while now. We've suffered through the typical problems found in a POV battle on WP: the summary deletions and reversions, the insults, the evasions, stubbornness. Maybe we could give the article a rest for a week or so. Ultimately, we all want to do right by WP and be fair to each other, but a POV battle puts a strain on civility. A temporary cease fire might do us good. Leadwind ( talk) 15:42, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
SLR, "Calls for a break, or to back off, appear to me to be nothing more than WP:OWN." There's no need to be uncharitable. Maybe it just looks like things are heating up, and I thought we could use a break. Editing gets less productive when editors are worked up. Leadwind ( talk) 16:31, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
The external links for academic societies and journals would be better suited in prose form in a new article section, perhaps one to two paragraphs long. I don't know what you would name it, but "Societies and publications" might work. Viriditas ( talk) 04:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I would like to help edit this article. I am not an expert in EP but a very keen student. I am concerned about the initial sentence, and I am requesting editors views. My point is that the opening needs to be not only simple and reader-friendly but also uncontentious (if that is possible). At present it reads:
Evolutionary psychology (EP) attempts to explain psychological traits—such as memory, perception, or language—as adaptations, that is, as the functional products of natural selection or sexual selection.
Is it fair to say that memory, perception and thinking are traditional aspects of cognitive psychology that focus on questions of mechanisms? These three aspects of cognition are basic to how we perceive the world and also subject to natural selection but there are proponents of EP who maintain that the focus of EP should be on strategic functional questions about behavioral decisions, in other words social cognition, which is a higher order of cognition more specific to our behavior. From my reading it seems that there are different EP schools of thought on this. If I am correct then surely the article should start off with a less contentious sentence? What are people’s views on this? If you agree with me then I would like to suggest that, as EP is explained in considerable detail within the article, it can start off as gently as possible with a very simple and reader-friendly sentence (providing, of course, it is not so diluted as to be actually misleading or uninformative). I have selected a few possibilities from the literature (see below):
What about the last one - any other suggestions? Granitethighs 10:09, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Science article: Markets, Religion, Community Size, and the Evolution of Fairness and Punishment. Joseph Henrich, Jean Ensminger, Richard McElreath, Abigail Barr, Clark Barrett, Alexander Bolyanatz, Juan Camilo Cardenas, Michael Gurven, Edwins Gwako, Natalie Henrich, Carolyn Lesorogol, Frank Marlowe, David Tracer, and John Ziker Science 19 March 2010: 1480-1484.
I don't know if anyone wants to incorporate this paper's findings within the article. Its a major paper in a respected journal that shows that altruism is related to our level of market incorporation and our willingingness to perform third-party punishment is related to the community size that we live in. Both findings are inconsistent with the idea that genes simply determine our level of altruism, and instead suggests that shared ideas or memes are required. 76.66.24.64 ( talk) 17:13, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Within the text of the article there are various sections discussing and describing disciplines related to EP. There is a general tackling of the topic in the introductory matter and then a small section on sociobiology later and other mentions of other disciplines as they emerge in the text. I think it would greatly improve the article if all this was put together (to get the bits together as much as any other reason). This would also serve to orientate those readers new to the topic but who are not quite sure where EP fits in with similar and related topics. The following is a first attempt at doing this. It takes up space but I figure if done well (I need some help here) it can replace quite a lot of the existing text (some of which is unreferenced). Could someone work with me on this?
The content of EP has derived from, on the one hand, the biological sciences (especially evolutionary theory as it relates to ancient human environments, the study of paleoanthropology and animal behavior) and, on the other, the human sciences especially psychology. Evolutionary biology as an academic discipline emerged with the modern evolutionary synthesis in the 1930s and 1940s, [1] although it was not until the 1970s and 1980s that university departments included the term evolutionary biology in their titles. Several behavioural subjects relate to this core discipline: in the 1930s the the study of animal behaviour ( ethology) emerged with the work of Dutch biologist Nikolaas Tinbergen and Austrian biologists Konrad Lorenz and Karl von Frisch. In the 1970s two major branches developed from ethology. Firstly, the study of animal social behavior (including humans) generated sociobiology, defined by its pre-eminent proponent Edward O. Wilson in 1975 as "the systematic study of the biological basis of all social behavior" [2] and in 1978 as "the extension of population biology and evolutionary theory to social organization". [3] Secondly, there was behavioral ecology which placed less emphasis on social behavior by focusing on the ecological and evolutionary basis of both animal and human behavior.
From psychology there there are the primary streams of developmental, social and cognitive psychology. Establishing some measure of the relative influence of genetics and environment on behavior has been at the core of behavioral genetics and its variants, notably studies at the molecular level that examine the relationship between genes, neurotransmitters and behavior. Dual inheritance theory (DIT), developed in the late 1970s and early 1980s, has a slightly different perspective by trying to explain how human behavior is a product of two different and interacting evolutionary processes: genetic evolution and cultural evolution. DIT is a "middle-ground" between much of social science, which views culture as the primary cause of human behavioral variation, and human sociobiology and evolutionary psychology which view culture as an insignificant by-product of genetic selection. [4]
Granitethighs 01:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
I have incorporated the above text since it does not seem to have offended anyone. I have also made the statement of principles as simple as I can. I would like to do more editing - for example there is now repetition in the explanations of what EP is. Also there are some eccentricities in this particular article like citing, or rather naming, in the lead a whole lot of practitioners of the discipline: this could be done I think in a simpler and more digestible way for the reader. There is a bit more possible copyediting too ... what do you think? Granitethighs 12:05, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I think it is time to start fleshing out some of the additional topic areas noted on the EP Temp page (see link at the top of this page) and adding them to the main page. I'll start doing so -- others' help with these new contributions would be appreciated.
* 7.1 Survival (already there) * 7.2 Mating (already there) * 7.3 Parenting (add) * 7.4 Kinship (add) * 7.5 Group living (add)
* 8.1 Cognitive psychology (add) * 8.2 Social psychology (add) * 8.3 Developmental psychology (add) * 8.4 Personality psychology (add) * 8.5 Clinical psychology (add) * 8.6 Cultural psychology (add)
Memills ( talk) 16:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
Evolution is discussed in the Evolution article, do you really need to add an extra section to introduce evolution again in this article, couldn't it just be put in a link in the see also section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ollyoxenfree ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be a bit of an edit war going on as to whether or not the word "explains" or "examines" should be used in the first sentence of the introductory paragraph:
Evolutionary psychology (EP) [explains/examines] psychological traits—such as memory, perception, or language—as adaptations, that is, as the functional products of natural selection or sexual selection.
Using the term "examines" is more appropriate, IMO. Using the term "explains" seems a bit presumptuous. Certainly, there are those who would contest the notion that EP actually "explains" what it purports to, (i.e., "psychological traits...as adaptations"). There is a certain POV "ring" to such a claim. However, it would not seem so controversial to state that EP "examines" psychological traits in such a manner. Whether or not EP actually "explains" what it does indeed "examine" from a particular perspective should be left up to the reader to decide and not merely presumed in the article's opening statement. Thus, using the word "examines" would be more conducive to NPOV. EPM ( talk) 14:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
How about "would explain" or "describes" or "considers...to be"? It's about how EP refers to "psychological traits"; not what it does with them (i.e. "examines") — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekimiheart ( talk • contribs) 07:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
The recent edits Ekimiheart ( talk · contribs) have several problems that mean that they cannot be introduced in the form that Ekimiheart wants. They are out of encyclopedic style, containing much hyperbole and editorializing about the way evolutionary psychology relates to other branches of psychology. It also refers to wikipedia which isnot permissible. It seems that Ekimiheart has much knowledge about and interest in the topic, but we require attention to the encyclopedic style of the material included as well. ·Maunus·ƛ· 19:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
RESPONSE: First, let me apologize for not knowing that you cannot refer to Wikipedia in an article. But I wanted to use a definition of "hard" and "soft" science to make my point and felt it would be more appreciated if I use the definition from Wikipedia in doing this. I could have easily found another definition on the web for the same purpose. But, given that Wiki articles routinely link to other Wiki articles, I didn't see the problem in doing so and then using what was said within that article to make my point. How would this have been done to be in compliance with the expectations of Wiki editors? Is it just that I said "Wikipedia" in the article, and could have done what I did exactly had I not said "Wikipedia"? I'm all ears, as this should certainly be an easy issue to rectify.
Now more to the meat of the issue: To make this discussion of what I had inserted productive, it is imperative (especially when dealing with a science site) to be specific. To use general terms like "encyclopedic style", "hyperbole" and "editorializing" does little good without specifying the particular phrase or word choice that is the problem. It would allow me to simply assert "I did not use hyperbole" --and where does that leave us? So let us start with "hyperbole". Could you specify a particular phrase where you perceive hyperbole being used? I do know I took pains to admit the current limitations of the new science through use limiting words such as "attempts", "merely", "limited", etc. (I might gently remind the editors that simply describing an elephant as "large" is not hyperbole.) I don't assert what EP does ---only what it is attempting to do, in overview, within the larger context of natural science. And, it would disingenuous to obfuscate the fact that EP is, at least, attempting to do very "large" things.
Two additional points I probably should make at the outset.
First, I thought my comments were consistent with both the "revolutionary" aspect of Wikipedia (Be Bold!); but also with the proper placement within an "Overview" section --the term directing one to go beyond mere description (as is the character of each opening section) to a deeper "putting it all into the larger perspective" approach. This is especially important for the new science given the intense confusion regarding its logical placement within the broader Natural Science category of Biology (i.e. as a branch of Primatology).
Second, I had sent the EP Overview page including my edits (and before it had been reverted) to Frans DeWaal, who is one of the most well-known and respected primatologists in the world (and who has written extensively about Evolutionary Psychology and its connection to Primatology). He read through my comments and found them "very interesting". He apparently didn't see any particular inappropriateness about my description of the science in an Overview page of an encyclopedic article.
I eagerly await a response, but I have never gone through this process before so I might come off as rather awkward at the outset. I'll probably do "what just isn't done", many times over before I get the gist of this. Ekimiheart ( talk) 18:53, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
"Stone age solutions to depression"
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Phenylalanine ( talk • contribs) 22:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
"evolutionary psychology. Founded in the late 1980s in the ashes of sociobiology, this field asserts that behaviors that conferred a fitness advantage during the era when modern humans were evolving are the result of hundreds of genetically based cognitive "modules" preprogrammed in the brain."
http://www.newsweek.com/id/202789
So you experts may want to add "EP studies behaviors that conferred a fitness advantage during the era when modern humans were evolving" or something. Anyway, IMHO good article explaining EP and what is wrong with it. Or maybe this link belongs to controversies page? Please do as you feel right and remove this.
I thought we went through this 3 years ago, but anyway... New material has been added, please take a look. My view is that the material added, a philosophical criticism of a science, seems to put too much weight on the view of philosophers (I think I said such a thing a few years back). What do others think? Dbrodbeck ( talk) 13:13, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
The article states:
"Evolutionary psychology (EP) is an approach within psychology that examines psychological traits — such as memory, perception, or language — from a Darwinian evolutionary perspective."
Can some expert on the subject please be more specific about what "from a Darwinian perspective" means? Does it imply that everything about the makeup of present-day human nature is assumed by evolutionary psychologists to be the result of natural selection, and that no other causes are tolerated? (Because if so, that is quite notable -- and if not, it's probably worth clarifying that it's not the case.) As an ignorant outsider, I for one, would be grateful to learn more about this. Thanks. Daqu ( talk) 17:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I am having an issue with the first statement: "Evolutionary psychology (EP) is an approach within psychology that examines psychological traits — such as memory, perception, or language — from a modern evolutionary perspective." I am sure this is how EP's would view it, but it sounds as if ALL 'modern evolutionary perspectives' would necessarily concur with the approach taken by EP. In other words, it would appear that the general and less contested theory of "evolution" is being used in this sentence to bolster support for EP, which is a certain take on evolutionary ideas, focusing on adaptive selection while making certain assumptions about the 'mind' - assumptions much disputed by academics that may very well support the standard theory of evolution. Logic prevails ( talk) 16:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
According to Lawrence Shapiro in the Rutledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (a peer reviewed encyclopedia in Philosophy), there is a dispute as to whether this field can be considered as a science. "Critics have objected that evolutionary psychology is untestable because hypotheses about the EEA cannot be tested, that evolutionary psychology is adaptationist to a fault, and that commitment to the existence of a human nature is inconsistent with evolutionary theory." -- DoostdarWKP ( talk) 04:54, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The discussion is about inclusion of the following text in the controversy section of this article: According to Stephen M. Downes in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, "There is a broad consensus among philosophers of science that evolutionary psychology is a deeply flawed enterprise." [1]. Two editors believe that this should not be included, even in one sentence in the controversy section of this article because philosophy is not part of the science, and of a previous consensus not to do so. Discussion can be found at Talk:Evolutionary_psychology#recently_expanded_controversy_section. DoostdarWKP ( talk) 13:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
.*comment I don't believe there is any sensible way to distinguish sharply between scientific topics and other topics. And even if there were, philosophy of science would still be relevant to scientific topics. Thirdly there is no reason I can see that evolutionary psychology should be considered more scientific than othert kinds of psychology. And yes, according to our policies when we treat the topic of Evolutionary psychology we should include all relevant viewpoints- not just the "scientific" ones, whatever that is supposed to mean. ·Maunus·ƛ· 17:10, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
As I noted in the previous section above:
Further, the specific passage that is being argued for inclusion here is not based on any empirical evidence (e.g., a survey of philosophers), and it is contradicted by other philosophers who believe that EP is on a "firm grounding." The debate among philosophers may be interesting, but it is not appropriate for the Evolutionary Psychology main page. However, it would be appropriate for inclusion in the Evolutionary Psychology Controversy page. Memills ( talk) 18:36, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
From a critical thinking perspective, the proposal under discussion basically combines two fallacies: An argument from authority (noted guy Doe says P, so P must be true) with an argumentum ad populum in the quoted assertion (many guys believe that P, so P is true). As long as this quote from Mr Downes does not include an argumentation or demonstration of why and how evolutionary psychology is a "flawed enterprise", it will just remain fallacious rhetoric. Moreover, as already pointed by others, there is a specific article dedicated to controversies about EP. Even if the quote wasn't a fallacy, its place would obviously be on that page. This said, I do find a bit unsettling that the intro of the evolutionary psychology article doesn't mention its controversial aspect: When a special page is dedicated to controversies generated by the topic of the article, a minimum would be to have the wikilinked word "controversy" in the intro. But that's admittedly another story... -- Doctorcito ( talk) 17:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
The article defines EEA without describing it. The Human evolution page doesn't describe it either. How big were the bands? What tools did they use? What social structure is presumed? That sort of thing. What is the environment that we evolved for? Would that be on some other page? Leadwind ( talk) 02:22, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
It's important to address the criticism that EP has received, to dismiss it if nothing else. Since criticism of EP gets coverage in our commonly accepted reference texts, it should get coverage here, too (per WP:WEIGHT). And if we don't address the criticism then we don't have a chance to tell the reader that EP has won out against the critics. Leadwind ( talk) 14:38, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
There seems to be considerable exaggeration from some editors in this thread about how well evolutionary psychology is accepted among psychologists, not to mention how well accepted it is among other scientists who study human behavior. Try checking a source list I maintain to share with other Wikipedians for some leads to sources. Some other good sources are also mentioned above in this thread. -- WeijiBaikeBianji ( talk, how I edit) 23:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Actually the book has less than the 3 pages I said it had - the second page is taken up by an unrelated infobox, and only the first paragraph of the third page is about EP. The authors divide the topic into 1. the history of the evolutionary framework in psychology Darwin/James/Galton - examples of EP hypotheses of adaptive motivation for modern psychological traits - description of the critique of EP as generating untestable hypotheses - and an example of the ways in which EP has worked to get around that problem. It does not suggest that EP has finally convinced its critics, but it does state that it is developing and gaining momentum as a subdiscipline within psychology.
"Evolutionary psychology explains mind and behavior in terms of the adaptive value of abilities that are preserved over time by natural selection. Evolutionary psychology has its roots in Charles Darwin’s (1809–82) theory of natural selection, which inspired William James’s functionalist approach. But it is only since the publication in 1975 of Sociobiology, by the biologist E. O. Wilson, that evolutionary thinking has had an identifiable presence in psychology. That presence is steadily increasing (Buss, 1999; Pinker, 1997a; Tooby & Cosmides, 2000)." (p. 26)
"Critics of the evolutionary approach point out that many current traits of people and other animals probably evolved to serve different functions than those they currently serve. ... Complications like these have lead the critics to wonder how evolutionary hypotheses can ever be tested (Coyne, 2000; Sterelny & Griffiths, 1999). Testing ideas about the evolutionary origins of psychological phenomena is indeed a challenging task, but not an impossible one (Buss, Haselton, Shackelford, Bleske, & Wakefield, 1998; Pinker, 1997b). Evolutionary psychologists hold that behaviors or traits that occur universally in all cultures are good candidates for evolutionary adaptations." (p. 26-27)
This is pretty much the core of what they say about EP - they present a couple of examples of how EP has linked psychological traits with adaptive functions, and they mention that "evolutionary psychologists are becoming more inventive" in their attempts to test adaptive hypotheses. One example is studies that link certain psychological or physical traits to reproductive succes directly. It is clear that the main criticism they see is the fact that adaptive hypotheses are difficult and often impossible to test - they say as much. This is what has prompted critiques of EP being simply a framework for generating just so stories rather than an actually scientific endeavor. If the article mentions just one critique of EP then this should be it - just as. The possible ethical implications are not nearly as important.
Folks keep hating on the information I added from EBO, which says that EP has been criticized. From comments, it sounds like editors think I'm criticizing EP, but read the material again (or read it in the original on EBO). It's a demonstrable fact that critics have accused EP of being a right-wing conspiracy. We can neutrally state as much. EP is at the point at which it's safe to acknowledge the criticism because EP has won out. Let's not hide from the fact that EP has been criticized. Let's embrace it. The academic left has been trying to shout down EP for 30 years and has failed. That's a story worth telling.
Maybe my wording could be clearer, but let's work with the concept rather than accept only half the material I added from EBO. Leadwind ( talk) 14:48, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
The particular passage in question seems to be the third from the bottom of the Encyclopedia Britannica (EB) article. It reads:
"One of the key criticisms of human sociobiology is borne of fear that the findings will be used to effect unfair or immoral policies. Examples include use of social Darwinism to justify discriminatory practices, economic policies that benefit relatively few at the expense of many, genocide, eugenics, and legal systems that fail to protect the vulnerable segments within populations. These potential problems suggest the need for deep ethical consideration of the implications of evolutionary psychology. Such an approach would investigate how results might be used ethically, to benefit society, or unethically, to cause harm."
Morton Shumway—
talk 22:02, 27 January 2011 (UTC).
(A little more context seems useful here. The EB article referenced in the last paragraph of the WP article lede is "social behaviour, animal." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, 2011. Web. 23 Jan. 2011 ([
[2]]).
Morton Shumway—
talk
02:09, 28 January 2011 (UTC).
Would someone kindly propose what we should say in the lead about the controversy over EP? If you don't like my attempt to summarize the controversy, please suggest an alternative treatment. Leadwind ( talk) 17:03, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
The current introductory sentence is misleading. It reads: "Evolutionary psychology (EP) is an approach within psychology that examines psychological traits — such as memory, perception, or language — from a modern evolutionary perspective." There are many critics of EP who are evolutionists and who would also claim to work from a "modern evolutionary perspective." The way it is currently worded suggests that belief in evolution naturally supports EP - a claim that critics would suggest is unfounded. Logic prevails ( talk) 15:15, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
I have been trying to edit the problematic sentence and it keeps coming back. For those looking to keep it, please present a logical rationale for doing so - one that would also consider the above criticism. Logic prevails ( talk) 19:58, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Someone in a thread above asked: "What controversy? You need a secondary source with a work focusing on evolutionary psychology and written by someone known to be an authority in the area (they would need knowledge of evolution and psychology and evolutionary psychology)."
My source is Pinker. He promotes EP, and he wrote a whole book documenting the controversy. The controversy is real, and proponents of EP know that the controversy is real. We should describe it. My latest two lines (summarily deleted) were based on his work. The book is, as requested, "a work focusing on evolutionary psychology and written by someone known to be an authority in the area."
That said, this article is in sad shape. It has an overview section, which no article should have. The lead is supposed to be the overview (see WP:LEAD). It also has an anemic section on the controversy. And the controversy page is even worse.
Listen, I understand how hard it is to summarize a contentious issue, but we have solid sources that describe the controversy, so we can describe it, too. If we stick to solid sources and summarize what they say, we can't really go wrong. Leadwind ( talk) 16:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Another critique by Susan McKinnon. I think that if we introduce such critiques there is something we have to be very careful about. Defenders of EP often respond to critics like SM that they are using political concerns to criticize science, regardless of the scientific validity of the research. But I think people like MacKinnon are arguing instead that when scientists study human behavior their science is actually often non value-free, and moreover that there are other scholars whose research is precisely on the ways forms of knowledge and forms of power can be intertwined. That is, as I interpret them, she is not claiming that EP should be disparaged because she doesn't like the political implications of the conclusions, but because it is actually bad science. In other words, advocates and critics of EP have two conflicting visions of what valid scholarly research on certain human problems is, on academic, not political, grounds. At least, that is how one side of the debate views it. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:26, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
SLR, WP policy does refer specifically to "disinterested" secondary and tertiary sources. Lots of good editors are not familiar with that usage or the policy that it relates to. I wasn't aware of it for the longest time. But it turns out that WP:WEIGHT tells us this: "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both approaches and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint." So WP is explicitly telling us to find secondary and tertiary sources with a "disinterested" viewpoint. The Psychology text is a fine example of a tertiary source the describes the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint. So is Encyclopedia Britannica. Maunus says that bad EP people use the irrelevant political attacks as a red herring, which is a fine personal conclusion for him to favor, but I'm asking him to prove it by citing a disinterested expert source. So far Maunus's reason for not wanting to mention the political controversy does not have the backing of disinterested, expert opinion. As an addendum, let me note that generally the editors who most strongly resist WP:WEIGHT are the ones who don't have the weight of expert opinion on their side. Leadwind ( talk) 17:03, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
It would help the reader understand EP if we could contrast it with another viewpoint. Can someone summarize the non-EP view? Or maybe instead we should summarize the non-EP view for each component of EP. For example, if the mind isn't the computations of the biological brain (as EP says it is), then what is it? If the brain doesn't consist of many specialized modules, what does it consist of? If language and morality didn't evolve, where did they come from? If we don't have Stone Age minds, what do we have? If our facial expressions (for example) aren't adaptations, what are they? Sometimes I hear that EP wants to replace the Freudian model of the mind, and sometimes that it wants to replace the standard social sciences model of the mind. In any event, especially if we're going to report on the criticism of EP, we should summarize the alternative view which are (reportedly) superior. Leadwind ( talk) 23:03, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
You seem to think there is one single "EP view." In fact, evolutionary psychologists propose explanations for a range of human behaviors. For example, some evolutionary psychologists have argued an evolutionary reason for male promiscuity relative to females. Most cultural anthropologists I know of reject this explanation because there is no evidence that the behavior is universal. But this is a debate over a specific behavior or pattern of behaviors and a specific explanation. If you want to know alternatives, you have to be specific about which EP explanation about which pattern of behaviors. I think one could argue that anthropology in general rejects evolutionary psychology on most matters, but this is not because anthropologists reject in its entirety the proposition that some human behaviors are instinctive and selected for by nature in the course of human evolution.. That is why you have to be precise, rather than vague. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:49, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Maunus was generous enough to tell us what a university-level textbook says about EP. Let's agree that it's our current best summary of EP, and use it to build out the article, especially the lead. As a disinterested tertiary source, this text is a good resource for addressing the controversy from a neutral point of view. Or if you don't like Psychology then volunteer a better source. Leadwind ( talk) 03:57, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Back to the suggestion that started this thread: we have a university-level textbook on the topic, and an editor has summarized its treatment for us. Let's add that material to the page. Agreed? Memill, you seem to promote a mainstream understanding of EP, so I would expect that you would want to use the most mainstream sources we have on the topic. Leadwind ( talk) 15:11, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
I think Leadwind is right to ask for reference to policy before going to an RfC. Memills, you continue to make a false analogy. The reason ID is not discussed in the Evolution talk page is because no mainstream evolutionary scientist considers Behe's claims as scientifically valid, and it is clear that manor proponents of ID are motivated by religious belief. This is not the case for criticisms of EP which as I said already are firmly within the academy. Behe has no mainstream support from any academic discipline that is concerned with human evolution. However, EP does face criticism from mainstream academic disciplines that are concerned with explaining human behavior. Your analogy simply does not hold up. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Regarding "with critics accusing it of supporting unfair or immoral policies", one of the most common criticisms accuses EP of sanctioning rape or other forms of mistreatment of women. There are tons of academic sources expressing that point of view -- here is a pointer to some of it. Looie496 ( talk) 22:45, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Since we're trying to achieve balance, and not just root for our respective sides, I've added the rest of Maunus's helpful summary to the lead. This information has helped place the theory in the history of science, so thanks, Maunus. Leadwind ( talk) 01:37, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
SLR, you say, "I think Leadwind is right to ask for reference to policy before going to an RfC." It's nice to see that you agree that editors should refer to policy (or at least that _other_ editors should). Leadwind ( talk) 16:51, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
According to WP:WEIGHT, we use commonly accepted reference texts to establish majority viewpoints, and we use disinterested secondary and tertiary sources to cover disagreements with balance. EBO is a commonly accepted reference text and a disinterested tertiary source. Therefore, we should be happy to use it to establish the majority viewpoint on EP, and to help us strike the balance between those who say we're robot ape-men and those who bravely defend egalitarianism against biological determinism (or something like that). I propose that we do what we did with the Psychology textbook and add the highlights of the EBO entry on EP to this article. I'm no professor, but I'm well-read, and I don't see any glaring errors in the EBO entry. Since it's online, it has the virtue of letting every editor follow our link and see for themselves that no tricky POV-pusher has skewed this page's representation of EP. I'd like to think that we can sort of agree to use the EBO article without reading it first because of its pedigree, but I wouldn't be surprised if one or two editors might be harboring a POV bias and can't decide whether to support my proposal until they have given the Encyclopedia Britannica their personal seal of approval. So here's the link: Evolutionary Psychology. Leadwind ( talk) 01:58, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
·Maunus·ƛ· 15:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)"Pinker’s book on the language instinct and his later book, How the Mind Works (1997), belong to a field known as evolutionary psychology. This is a movement that views the human mind as designed by natural selection. As a result, it opposes the standard social science model, according to which the mind is a general-purpose cognitive device shaped virtually in its entirety by cultural influence. In contrast, evolutionary psychology argues that the mind consists of a number of functionally specialized modules. This organization acknowledges the existence of selection pressures that acted on human Paleolithic ancestors living in small hunter-gatherer societies. Although the term instinct is lightly used in the writings of evolutionary psychologists, it is pervasively implicit in the sense of inborn propensity or innate structure. Because evolutionary psychology can be viewed as genetic reductionism that ignores the intricacies of individual development, it is vulnerable to the kinds of criticism that comparable nativist views such as that of Lorenz have been subject to in the past. There is plenty of evidence that genes can influence behaviour. However, the question of how they do so is at issue. In the past this question either was not addressed or was assumed to involve specification of developmental outcome without any contribution from interaction with contextual factors, such as might result from experience. However, this assumption fails to acknowledge the complexity of the developmental process. At all levels—from the gene in its matrix of microcellular structure to the grown organism in its physical and social environments—interaction is the rule, which can be revealed only by developmental study. Evidence of genetic basis, which has been furnished by selective breeding and by functional correlation implying natural selection, is silent about how a behavioral trait is realized in individual ontogeny (the development of an organism from conception to adulthood)."
Here's the [ diff] that Maunus and I are currently disagreeing about. Strangely he prefers no citation whatever to citing EBO. He also unilaterally removed the word "impressive" from a sentence, even though that's what the source says and it's the meat of the statement. Leadwind ( talk) 15:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
The controversies above are basically derivative of the conflict in the social sciences between cultural determinism and nature-nurture interactionism. It is easy to find references to academic authorities trashing others on the opposite side, even in textbooks and reference sources. The Stanford University Anthropology Department actually had to split apart at one time to separate these warring factions. However, the ping-ponging of these claims/counter-claims is not what this main EP page is about.
It would be appropriate to give general mention the SSSM vs. IM controversy on the EP main page. However, the specific claims/counter-claims are more appropriately hashed out on the Evolutionary_psychology_controversy page, which, obviously, is entirely devoted to those issues. Memills ( talk) 06:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I think mentioning the critics, and then mentioning the response from say someone like Pinker, would be a reasonable approach. References are needed though, rather than cherry picked ones. The problem with say going to an intro book is what intro book. So, yeah something from those mentioned might do fine I think. Dbrodbeck ( talk) 12:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
To get more input on the issues discussed above, I have added a request for peer review of these issues. Memills ( talk) 06:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
It looks like I went and confused the POV battle that you people were having. There used to be clear demarcations between those who hate EP and want to report on the controversy and those who love EP and want to exclude the controversy from coverage. Then I went and muddied the waters by saying we should report both the criticisms and the successes, using (per WP:WEIGHT) commonly accepted reference texts and disinterested secondary and tertiary sources. Now everyone's angry. Once again, I ask my fellow editors to set aside personal views and just follow WP policy to give this engaging topic the treatment that WP wants it to get.
Personally, I'm familiar with both sides. In college, I was taught from John Money's infamous textbook in which he misused the tragic life of David Reimer to argue that gender was socially constructed and not genetic. Indeed his case study proved his point with little room for doubt. I can deconstruct any behavior into cultural determinism as adeptly as the next 1970s liberal. Until it turned out that Money's case study was contrafactual, and that Reimer's life proved, if anything, that the opposite of Money's socialized-gender theory was true. I'm chagrined to have been duped, and now I buy into ev psych because it has actual evidence backing it up.
The success of ev psych has made the debate murkier. Just like creationists who now adore dinosaurs (once rejected as a paleontologist's fevered dream), the opponents of ev psych now acknowledge the power of evolution in shaping human culture and psyches. Even Gould, who once proudly denounced the idea that any individual human could have inborn predispositions for one behavior or another, had to accept that we each really do have genetic, heritable predispositions, the sort of thing that natural selection presumably acts on. All without ever admitting that his ev psych opponents had ever taught him anything. So now the opponents of ev psych proclaim the very tenets of ev psych (natural selection working on genetic predispositions) on one hand and denounce it on the other.
And the way to cut through this tangled web of shifting accusations and assertions is to follow WP policy: turn to our commonly accepted reference texts and our disinterested secondary and tertiary sources, then use them to guide out treatment of the topic. Is that too much to ask? Quite possibly. Leadwind ( talk) 17:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
And please, you have now been presented with enough evidence that this is not a debate as to whether human beings evolved through a variety of natural processes including natural selection. No one debates this (that you keep referring to an Encyclopedia Britannical article that does not exist, and ignore the book reviews and articles from peer-reviewed journals, shows that you are just making this stuff up) No one questions that humans evolved and have genes. Some scientists actually research human evolution (no Evolutionary Psychologists though - none of them have any training in evolution or genetics, and have made no contribution whatsoever to our understanding of human evolution or genetics) and others research human behaviors (and here to, the major "evolutionary psychologists" have made no real contribution ... Stephen Pinker is a linguist and has yet to demonstrate that any grammatical features are genetically determined). You once asked what the "alternative" to EP is. I guess the most concise answer is: science. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
My mistake! I thought he was a Chomsky protege. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
He was referring to "brain," - you simply said genes. Of course genetic deects can predispose behavior. As for the brain, we still have very impartial information about the brain and even fMRI research draws on relatively small samples with results that are open to interpretation. I know of no brain research that contradicts Gould. There is no research by evolutionary psychologists that demonstrates that evolved differences in the brain predispose people to different behavior. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:31, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Yup, let's just follow policy. That will take less tim thn detailing all the flaws in what you just wrote. If you have a reliable source that shows that this is a significant view among neuroscientists (and I mean, concerning humans, not rats or rhesus monkeys, and that demonstrate a clear link to a specific behavior), by all means provide the source. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:22, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
This really should be simple. You guys think EP is bunk. I ask why. Then you guys are supposed to list all the stupid, irresponsible, overreaching things that EP says. Then we find out whether those things are true or false, and with that information we could all agree on whether EP is right. But we're hung on the list of errors that EP makes because you critics are holding back. So far, "modularity" is the one aspect of EP that you're all willing to attack, but even Janksepp likes some degree of modularity. I can tell you for certain that an abstract topic such as modularity doesn't get people angry, and EP makes people angry. So please lay it out for me. If EP is wrong, I want you to prove it to me so I can correct myself. This should be a simple question for those of you convinced that EP is wrong: "What does EP say that's wrong?" Could you write a sentence that represents something EP claims but that is false? If you offer such a sentence, then we'll be able to add that straight to the page, like "EP claims X, Y, and Z, which is roundly disputed by neuroscientists," or something.
Meanwhile, I guess we should go find out what neuroscientists say about modularity. Leadwind ( talk) 13:34, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Leadwind, where did I ever say EP isn't bunk? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:06, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Logic, you said, "The examples you just gave Leadwind, are relatively uncontested examples of how genetics and biology make males and females different."
This article should probably describe the ways in which physiology confirms evolutionary psychology, such as the uncontested way that inherited traits affect gender. After all, even the people who oppose EP acknowledge that EP is right about this much: men and women are different biologically, not just physically but psychologically. I know it's controversial, and that's why it's important to state the clear case. While this information is hardly contested today, it was hotly contested as late as the 80s. Even editors who oppose EP presumably agree with it this far, so there should be no objection to documenting this finding. There's nothing about it in the lead. What should we say? Leadwind ( talk) 19:35, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Maunus deleted my comment, above. Boy howdy, that was a rude surprise. Back when I was trying to get criticism on the page, he and I worked together. Now he doesn't even want anyone to read what I have to say.
As if to demonstrate that I really am trying to work on the page, I took Andy's lead and added something about social inequality. You see, this discussion is actually leading to new information on the page. It's not just a general discussion about the merits of EP. Though I can understand why opponents of EP would like to steer clear of anything that looks like a measured, careful assessment of its merits. Leadwind ( talk) 15:38, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Is there a "warrior gene"?
This looks like a clear case of a direct link between a single gene and behavior. It also demonstrates that there's no such thing as a simple "gene for aggression" (like Andy was pointing out), just genes that interact with other genes and individual experience to affect levels of aggression. Would this web site be an RS, or could someone cite the original paper? Leadwind ( talk) 15:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Let me just point out that our article on Monoamine oxidase A (the full name of MAOA) contains quite a bit of useful information, including a discussion of the "warrior" aspect. Looie496 ( talk) 01:12, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
"Alas, Poor Darwin" edited by Steven Rose and his wife is an entire book dedicated to criticism of Evolutionary Psychology. Evolutionary Psychologist Robert Kurzban assesses it like this: "What makes APD worthy of attention is not that it introduces new criticisms of the field of evolutionary psychology. What makes it noteworthy is that it accumulates a cornucopia of old criticisms, recycled and rehashed, in one place. Other sources, both scholarly and popular, have leveled the same accusations, made the same mistakes, and presented the same distorted picture of the field and its practitioners." [4] This suggests that this book is a good place to start if we want to look at the recurring criticisms of EP, by its most vocal critics. He outlines five major criticism that I think also need to be mentioned in the article here: EP is a form of genetic determinism, EP thinks every aspect of human behavior is an adaption, it generates untestable hypotheses, it focuses on providing distal or ultimate explanations rather than proximate explanations that are often more informative (i.e. the difference between answering the question "Why did Joe kill his wife after she slept with Bill?" by saying "because jealousy is an evolutionary adaptation" (distal) and by saying "because he felt betrayed and desparate" (proximate)), and lastly the critique that Evolutionary claims cannot be divorced from their possible political consequences. I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet, but I will work on that. Meanwhile I think that from the critique by Kurzban I can glean some of its attributes: it probably is too shrill and selfrighteous and I think that Kurzban is probably reacting mostly to this which is why some of his dismissals of its arguments read weird - for example he just find the difference critique of the preference for distal and rather than proximate arguments to be "odd", and he doesn't even engage with the notion that all research has political implications. In any case I think it be a good source to look at. ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Does this article really need a large section (including a huge table that completely breaks up the article and impairs readability) about the generalities of evolutionary theory. I think not, a small summary would suffice, but even that seems to go off topic in an article that is specifically about Evolutionary Psychology, not about evolution. ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Dr. Mills keeps deleting the material I added about genes & behavior and about race. Let's talk about that here. Dr. Mills? Leadwind ( talk) 00:06, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a great deal topical material that needs to be added to the main EP page. Some major outline headings have been languishing on the Discussion Temp Page Talk:Evolutionary psychology/Temp for years. I have added a few of the section / sub-section headings, and added some material under each. This initial material is either from the Temp page, or from other wikipedia articles. The text of these sub-sections needs to be fleshed out, with a particular focus on contributions by evolutionary psychologists.
Let's spend a tad more effort on the main EP page to describe what evolutionary psychologists actually say, rather than what their critics say they say. Memills ( talk) 05:19, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
Robert Wright offers an intriguing take on the genes-v-culture debate (in Moral Animal). While the cultural determinists (Marx, Boaz, Skinner, Rose, etc.) portray the individual as being passively shaped by culture, Wright describes the developing individual child as actively seeking out cues from the social environment to construct its own brain circuitry, language, social role, and personality. This active role on the part of the self-indoctrinating individual is most clearly seen with children picking up language. An infant doesn't just "like" baby talk. An infant actually rewards adults who use baby talk (by smiling, staring, looking so darn cute) to elicit more baby talk from them. Far from having language pressed upon it, the developing child seeks out linguistic cues from the environment in order to construct its own neural circuits accordingly, and the clever little devils start when they're still in the womb. Wright argues that much the same process happens with other aspects of one's social identity. In this view, culture isn't our way to transcend the genes' instinctive imperatives but rather culture is the genes' extended means for satisfying those imperatives. In the old debate between genes & culture, this approach seems notable. Leadwind ( talk) 15:54, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
This article is not simply a depository for information about evolutionary theory in relation to human behavior and cognition - it is only about the particular research that has been generated within Evolutionary Psychology - not in sociobiology, not in cultural ecology, not in behavioral genetics and not in cognitive biology or evolutionary anthropology, nor in generative linguistics. Evolutionary Psychology is a particular school of thought connected to names like Tooby, Buss, Cosmides, Pinker etc. Stop trying to turn this article into a general museum of human social and cognitive evolution. We are here to describe the discipline of Evolutionary Psychology, what is its history, its core assumptions, its major proponents, the most notable studies and findings, and the most notable critiques that have been levelled against it. Nothing more. ·Maunus·ƛ· 02:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
We discuss gender differences under Mating, but psychological dimorphism could be its own, big section. This aspect of EP is perhaps the most dramatic and certainly one of the most controversial. While EP focuses on how humans are all the same, the differences between men and women compose different sort of universal.
We hardly discuss status, but status hierarchies are universal in social ape societies (and we're the most social ape of all). Chimps and bonobos are able to manage complicated, shifting political alliances without words or promises, just as our ancestors presumably did until they evolved speech.
Aggression is another rich topic. Clearly men, in particular, are built to be aggressive.
The three above topics all have the virtue of contrasting EP sharply with the SSSM, in which gender is constructed without reference to instincts, aggression is an emergent property of societies but not an individual instinct, and status is said to be a bad product of a non-utopian social system.
A fourth topic might be unconscious communication. In our ancestral environment, we didn't speak, so all our communication was nonverbal. This is where we learned to size each other up and work our way through social groups: threatening, sharing, grooming, flirting, etc. It's where women evolved their amazing "mind-reading" abilities. We also evolved ways to affect and be affected by each other through chemicals: women choosing mates based on MHC, men spiking their semen with bonding hormones, counter-aggression signals in tears, bonding hormones released through cuddling, etc. These evolved, chemically mediated behaviors demonstrate that important social interactions and exchanges have a biological reality operating under the radar of conscious awareness. The SSSM has no way of explaining how culture could train people to put socially active chemicals in their bodily fluids. Leadwind ( talk) 15:46, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
We mention language but don't have a section on it. Whether evolution evolved is a hot topic (thanks to Chomsky). A common demonstration of the power of evolution is that infants learn speech (an evolved trait) spontaneously, while children can only learn reading and writing (not an evolved trait) through arduous drill. Language seems to be a good demonstration of EP principles: its modular, innate, and recently evolved. We even have a unique FOXP2 gene that appeared about 50 thousand years ago, corresponding roughly with the "great leap forward" and the appearance of behaviorally modern humans. Seems to be relevant to evolutionary psychology. Leadwind ( talk) 16:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
The section under "general evolutionary theory" (in the table) desperately needs fixing. Again, it is inappropriately using Darwin as a reference source - he did not necessarily support what the table says. The language is misleading. Take this:
In his 1859 book, he may have been referring to bodies, but nowhere in there does he even speculate about the 'mind.' The closest he comes, is in his chapter on animal 'instincts,' but even here, he is careful to also include discussion of the acquisition of what he calls 'habits' - essentially, learning. The above statement (and the one below it) paint him as an evolutionary psychologist, which he was not. Also, Darwin was careful not to use language such as "designed to," implying that he knew what the adaptations were for. He would occasionally make speculations, but when he did so, he backed up these speculations with painfully detailed observations of physical specimens. Logic prevails ( talk) 16:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
Leadwind inserted the following:
I reverted it with this edit summary: "Any source for a single 'ancestral' culture? No, obviously not - this makes no sense". I think I was correct - it is nonsensical to suggest there was a single "ancestral culture" - that all our H-G ancestors evolved within the same cultural complex (or even the same environment). I'm not sure what "unfortunately" has to do with anything either. I've no wish to get into an edit war, so can someone please try to rewrite this in a way that makes more sense (assuming this isn't what the source is actually claiming - I've not got access to it, but it seems unlikely).
As a side issue, I'd also ask just how much research into "existing hunter-gatherer societies" has been done by proponents of EP? AndyTheGrump ( talk) 20:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
From the article:
Really? But this is precisely what Franz Boas and Ruth Benedict argued, when they developed the culture concept. They simply use the term "cultural trait" rather than "meme," and "diffuse" or "share" instead of "replicate." If evolutionary psychology ends with memetics, then it sounds like evolutionary psychologists are shrugging and saying "I guess cultural anthropology was right all along." It certainly sounds like there is a whole range of shared behaviors that are not inherited biologically and thus not the product of natural selection acting on the genome. If they mean that natural selection can act on learned behaviors, well, cultural anthropologist Julian Steward wrote volumes on just this idea in the 1930s, 40s and 50s.
Or maybe memes really are different from cultural traits. But if so, I have to ask: has anyone demonstrated the scientific validity of the concept? Mendles laws of inheritance make possible a quite precise scientific assessment of genes. Do we have anything comparable for memes? The passage says "memes replicate." Well, we know how genes replicate, using mRNA - this is observable in laboratory condistions. Is the same true for memes? Sounds like the New Coke. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Maunus, please do not remove foundational material. The passages you have deleted have been stable parts of this page for years. Review the Evolutionary Psychology textbook by Buss -- there is coverage of all of this material. EP theories are derivative of many of these broad and mid-level theories. This page should accurately present what EPers believe is their discipline, not a narrow construction of it. EP is more than just Tooby and Cosmidies -- it is a broad spectrum of researchers from a variety of disciples that use foundational evolutionary theory as a basis for understanding human nature and human behavior. It covers a wide spectrum of topics and there are divergent approaches within the field. A good place to get the sense of this is at the Human Behavior and Evolution Society (HBES) website -- this is the primary organization for EPers in the U.S. Note the HBES self-description: "HBES is a society for all those studying the evolution of human behavior. Scientific perspectives range from evolutionary psychology to evolutionary anthropology and cultural evolution; and the membership includes researchers from a range of disciplines in the social and biological sciences." Memills ( talk) 17:16, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
We've been pounding away on this article for a good while now. We've suffered through the typical problems found in a POV battle on WP: the summary deletions and reversions, the insults, the evasions, stubbornness. Maybe we could give the article a rest for a week or so. Ultimately, we all want to do right by WP and be fair to each other, but a POV battle puts a strain on civility. A temporary cease fire might do us good. Leadwind ( talk) 15:42, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
SLR, "Calls for a break, or to back off, appear to me to be nothing more than WP:OWN." There's no need to be uncharitable. Maybe it just looks like things are heating up, and I thought we could use a break. Editing gets less productive when editors are worked up. Leadwind ( talk) 16:31, 18 February 2011 (UTC)