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Would it be possible to add some of Richard Dawkins works to the list of General Reference? Personally I'm not yet bold enough to edit existing articles; especially not this particular topic where every word is scrutinized and criticized.
The primary contributors could perhaps consider addressing the current trend in biologist perception of evolution from that of the species perspective to that of the evolving unit itself “DNA”. Dawkins works stress the significance of the genetic code while de-emphasizing the bodies which contain the genes.
I guess I am asking “Why no reference to the “Selfish Gene” which reflects a new perception of the existing evolutionary “theory” (that word has been debated to death)?”
There is a significant amount of text addressing the challengers of evolution. Why is this included? The statement that evolution is the most widely accepted “theory” within the scientific community on the origins of life dismisses the need to address the challengers any farther. If I believed that life was deposited here by extra-terrestrials would the primary authors feel compelled to explain why this is unlikely in the context of the modern evolutionary views? The Burden if Proof has shifted to the shoulders of those who support Intelligent Design, Creationism, or Alien origins.
I noticed that the article on Plate Tectonics does not devote a section on the challenges made by the young earth society; nor do they address the flat earth society.
My vote is to delete all references to the controversy. Separate articles already exist on creationism and intelligent design as well as specific articles concerning said controversy. A bold request, but why the need to appease?
I hope I am not trolling …. Not sure what that means. Troll ... an ugly beast ... rude and obnoxious?
Jim B. 66.56.206.4 00:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
According to Evolution, we all descended from single celled organisms. So therefore the dinosaurs did too. There are still cold-blooded animals which some say descended from dinosaurs but my question is...if the dinosaurs all died out then how did some creatures that exist now come to be? - unsigned
Allow me to borrow a phrase, Just a Question. Evolution seems probable, until you add the question of what is original matter? Some theories say that it is the Big Bang that created it all. Now, Just a question, but if everything evolved from something, where did it start? If you say the Big Bang happened, then I wonder if you can answer me this. What are the chances of two random particles hitting each other and exploding in life. What are the chances, hear me out, lets say you take a puzzle and drop all the pieces and they all connect to each other. Those are the chances of this happening. 69.67.231.27
...WHY doesn't Evolution have it? It's vandalised all the time. Adam Cuerden talk 15:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
This article should point out a few of the flaws in Evolution instead of taking it as fact. Here are a few examples:
At the rate continents are eroding (6 cm's every 1000 years) if the earth was actually 4.5 billion years old, all of the earth's land would have eroded several times over. Which can not be compensated by techtonic activity, which is far to slow (by evolutionary standards) to have fixed the problem.
If flatly contradicts the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which states that "1. Each time energy is converted from one form to another, some of the energy is always degraded to a lower-quality, more dispersed, less useful form. 2. No system can convert energy from one form to another useful for with 100 percent efficiency. 3. Energy cannot be spontaneously transferred from a cold body to a hot body. 4. The entropy of a system increases over time." (
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=define:+Second+law+of+thermodynamics&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
Amoung many other flaws. I think that Wikipedia should promote a more even system, if creationism was stated as fact it would be immidiatly reversed.
Well, SamuelGrauer to be sure there are real criticisms and arguments to be made with the theory of evolution. However, there are no arguments to the fact of evolution (Read the definition). Unfortunately none of your arguments are valid ones, but if you pursue the topic I do believe you will see the nature of the evidence and arguments. GetAgrippa 05:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
SamuelGrauer, I dunno why you think that erosion rate can't be compensated for by plate tectonics. In those same thousand years the Adirondacks will have uplifted 200 cm, the Rockies 500 cm, the Andes from 60 to 300 cm and the eastern Himalaya almost 700 cm. I suspect that someone fed you bad information. Varith 14:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The uniqueness of an enterprise that succeeds by constantly trying to prove itself wrong was brought to my attention by this post at slashdot that says "science was invented once, based on the legacy from Greece, and has since spread everywhere. That is the ONLY science - anything else may be knowledge, or technology, but it isn't science, because it's not been done according to scientific methods, where we purposefully try to *invalidate* ideas, instead of validating them. This is a very unnatural way of thinking, and has turned out to be a very practical one." I imagine many of the people who post here with evidence against evolution don't quite grasp that their evidence is from the process of science. A cherry picked factoid out of context derived from science (which is the ongoing process of investigation into trying to disprove any and every theory in science). Science is in fact an elaborate unique institution that consists of continually making progress by continually trying to disprove itself. As opposed to every other world-view institution ever created which continually try to obstruct counter evidences. WAS 4.250 14:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
"...and the recently-discovered Tiktaalik, which clarifies the development from fish to animals with four limbs." From the end of the first paragraph in section 2.
My problem is this: In the Tiktaalik page it states that "The rear fins and tail have not yet been found" (just after the list of characteristics). How can the Tiktaalik clarify moving from fish to tetrapods when it is not even know if it had 4 limbs/appendiges?
My suggestion is that the line be changed to the following
ORIGINAL: and the recently-discovered
Tiktaalik, which clarifies the development from fish to animals with four limbs.
SUGGESTED: and the recently-discovered
Tiktaalik, which could suggest the development from fish to animals with four limbs.
w00tboy
16:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Have a wee pic. Tiktaalik is a "transitional" species in that it shares characteristics with lobe finned fish and later tetrapod vertebrates: "clarifies the development from fish to land vertebrates" might work better.. dave souza, talk 20:16, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Brilliant pic. Must use it! Adam Cuerden talk 12:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can tell it's agreed that it's not about tetrapods. So should we remove/alter that bit to something else. Like amphibian limb etc, because that's the only part that is like an amphibian. I'm still not sure about "clarifies" though, I mean it's just another animal, and we want to be ireefutable don't we? w00tboy 15:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I want to add an external link to data that shows the percentage of the population that believes in evolution in various countries. I found this data to be very interesting. The link is: http://www.data360.org/graph_group.aspx?Graph_Group_Id=286 by JamieA
Geomor's removbed large sections, many of them, in my opinion, appropriately. However, is there anything that should be saved/spun off in what was removed? Adam Cuerden talk 16:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's all the cuts he made, with comments:
The section on Horizontal gene transfer has the following two sections cut: "Molecular evidence also offers a mechanism for large evolutionary leaps and macroevolution." and "Rather than evolving eukaryotic organelles slowly, this theory offers a mechanism for a sudden evolutionary leap by incorporating the genetic material and biochemical composition of a separate species. This evolutionary mechanism has been observed."
This reduces the paragraph into the much more readable:
Completely deleted. Since it's just a series of (copyrighted?) quotations, this may be best.
The following is cut: "One example of this misconception is the erroneous belief humans will evolve more fingers in the future on account of their increased use of machines such as computers. In reality, this would only occur if more fingers offered a significantly higher rate of reproductive success than those not having them, which seems very unlikely at the current time."
I agree with this cut: It's hardly a common belief, and it's rambly and badly written.
Cut completely. I disagree with this cut: It's probably in the top three creationist arguements - but I must admit to being worried about the lengthy quote (copyright infringement?).
In short, I think that some of his cuts, which were reverted, were quite rightly done, and think we should cut them again. Is there agreement on this? Adam Cuerden talk 22:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | Not only has life evolved, but life has evolved to evolve....For example, the vertebrate immune system shows that the variable environment of antigens has provided selective pressure for the use of adaptable codons and low-fidelity polymerases during somatic hypermutation. A similar driving force for biased codon usage as a result of productively high mutation rates is observed in the hemagglutinin protein of influenza A. [1] | ” |
It had nothing whatsoever to do with complex iteration. It's a good quote, but shouldn't have been where it was. Adam Cuerden talk 12:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Evolvability is a selectable trait. by Earl DJ, Deem MW. from Department of Bioengineering, Rice University, Houston, TX 77005-1892, USA. says "Concomitant with the evolution of biological diversity must have been the evolution of mechanisms that facilitate evolution, because of the essentially infinite complexity of protein sequence space. We describe how evolvability can be an object of Darwinian selection, emphasizing the collective nature of the process. We quantify our theory with computer simulations of protein evolution. These simulations demonstrate that rapid or dramatic environmental change leads to selection for greater evolvability. The selective pressure for large-scale genetic moves such as DNA exchange becomes increasingly strong as the environmental conditions become more uncertain. Our results demonstrate that evolvability is a selectable trait and allow for the explanation of a large body of experimental results." and "Not only has life evolved, but life has evolved to evolve. That is, correlations within protein structure have evolved, and mechanisms to manipulate these correlations have evolved in tandem. The rates at which the various events within the hierarchy of evolutionary moves occur are not random or arbitrary but are selected by Darwinian evolution. Sensibly, rapid or extreme environmental change leads to selection for greater evolvability. This selection is not forbidden by causality and is strongest on the largest-scale moves within the mutational hierarchy. Many observations within evolutionary biology, heretofore considered evolutionary happenstance or accidents, are explained by selection for evolvability. For example, the vertebrate immune system shows that the variable environment of antigens has provided selective pressure for the use of adaptable codons and low-fidelity polymerases during somatic hypermutation. A similar driving force for biased codon usage as a result of productively high mutation rates is observed in the hemagglutinin protein of influenza A. Selection for evolvability explains the prevalence of transposons among bacteria and recombination among higher organisms. We suggest that therapeutics also confer selective pressure on the evolvability of pathogens, and that this driving force for antigenic drift should be considered in drug- and vaccine-design efforts." WAS 4.250 14:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The research certainly uses iterative studies, but the section is on iterative studies as evidence for evolution. This is in the wrong section. I'm not sure where it should go.
Adam Cuerden
talk
18:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I've also removed the readded:
"Not only has life evolved, but life has evolved to evolve." [2]
Because it was A. unattributed, despite being an exact quote (D.J. Earl and M.W. Deem) and B. A brilliant quote, but unexplained and still in the wrong section. We can't just assert things and expect everyone to fall into line. Adam Cuerden talk 18:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
WATCH ATTRIBUTIONS, please. You CANNOT put an exact quote into the article without clearly indicating who said it RIGHT THERE, not in the footnote. Adam Cuerden talk 18:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Can we please stop restoring copyright violating material? (e.g. here) The version restored to doesn't even identify one of its quotes accurately. Adam Cuerden talk 23:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
But yeah, that section needs a serious rewrite. Reading the section, I'm having a hard time understanding what it is trying to establish. I suggest rewriting in to establish the growing field of computational studies in evolution ( Bioinformatics, Genomics, Proteomics). The current section is all over the place with too many specific examples. Plus I'm not sure what the title of the section is driving at. All in all, after 30 min of thinking about it, I'm agreeing with Adam Cuerden and that most of this section needs to be rewritten ASAP. Can we change the subject to something along the lines of Evidence from Computational Studies?-- Roland Deschain 02:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Go for it. I'll stop editing that section as of now. WAS 4.250 03:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I note that the wikipedia entry on Creationism has an entire section devoted to criticism of the argument. Why is there not an entire section in this article dedicated to criticism of evolution? I endorse the development of such a topic within the main body of this article. -Patrick
This article has grown to 92 kB, more than three times larger than the recommended limit for good readability (see Wikipedia:Article_size). Could we make an effort to trim it down a bit? Much of the information in this main article could be moved to supporting articles. For example, I think a new article on the technical aspects of the theory would be very helpful. I can also think of at least one section that could be moved almost entirely to one of the supporting articles. Could one of the regular (trusted) editors who monitor this page make some suggestions for areas to trim? Enter the bullet points! Gnixon 13:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Controversial articles typically grow very large, and are then divided into sub-articles. The key to this is to avoid POV forks, in favor of content forks. Obviously this article reached that stage some time ago. The issue now is how to think about a series of evolution-related articles. This article should focus on one thing (and I leave it to you guys to decide what that core is) and should then have links to related articles AND brief summaries of each article that was spun off. I am trying to be productive and here is my proposal: what you should all be talking about is that little box created by the {{ that says "evolution3" in it. It is time to reconsider how the articles in the box fit together, what is missing, and come up with a consensus rationale for the series of articles on evolution considered as a whole - and then let that rationale dictate what gets cut from this article, summarized here, and then pasted in a new linked article. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
One things people haven't addressed is that a lot of the article size is being generated by the inline cites. However I do think the article could use some serious editing to improve calarity, I think the history section as it stands is one of the better parts of the article - clear and concise. These are a few things tha I think would amke a big difference;
-- Peta 05:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The article starts with a nice flow. Define evolution, History of Evolution, Evidence for and examples of evolution. Maybe here we should to the Modern Synthesis, Genetics and Molecular Biology-(mutations, recombinations, genetic drift, gene flow, nonrandom mating, HGT, Phenotypic plasticity, Epigenetic change, mention Dawkin’s, Kimura, etc.), Natural selection and Adaptation (mention Gould’s ideas of Exaptation), Speciation (develop topic for article:Allo,para, and sympatric speciation, Dobzhansky-Muller Theory Of Postzygotic Isolation, etc.), Population biology-levels of selection discuss natural selection and drift, Hardy-Weinberg and homozygousity, etc, Microevolution-examples of speciation, and then do Macroevolution for the last section-(Earth’s life history, Comparative genomics, Evodevo, Gradual and Punctuated evolution, Coevolution (mention Red Queen), Extinction and Radiations). The article has the content I mainly suggest moving the Macroevolution content to the end of the article and perhaps shorten or lengthen specific topics. Drop current research, Misunderstandings (Not essential because we just educated to merits of the arguments), and Social and religious-(Address the issue in history section, because creationism and present incarnation-I.D. is historically relevant). This is a suggestion. GetAgrippa 13:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As I see it (as we are trying to cut down on this article) this section seems to be taking up a huge amount of space. I'm not saying that this section is not important. Rather I'm saying that it is so important that it deserves it's own article. Once that article is created, the evolution article can simply spend a summary paragraph on this topic. As this is a scientific topic, I don't really think that unscientific misunderstandings need so much space and so much detail. Now the obvious dilemma with this is a potential POV fork, but I don't think that should be a problem. The POV Forking article states that:
As I read this, the creation of the article should not be a POV fork as long as we keep a concise summary in this article. Anybody has objections to this. This type of move will cut down the article greatly with very little work.-- Roland Deschain 01:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, a separate article “The misconception” is not warranted. However, neither is space devoted to defending evolution. When you dedicate a section of this article defining a theory -you are not clarifying or enlightening … you are defending. The creationist sense this; thus, part of the ‘antagonistic aspect’ to the article itself. Do you feel a need to define Theory or is there a need to rub the creationist / ID’s noses in it. Reflect deeply on this… seriously. It is an emotionally charged issue and we all enjoy the debate but…
Recognize the alternative views by addressing them in the:“See also” forget the ‘spin-off’ idea … it too is just a compromise that is not needed.
In the articles on / Plate tectonics / Big bang / Theory of Relativity / … no one felt a need to stop and define Theory. Nor do they address or recognize opposing views that lack scientific credibility. I’ve stated this before … but I can assure you no one when composing geology submissions pays homage to the debate over a flat earth nor in plate tectonics do they respond to the criticism that there is not sufficient time in 5,600 years.
So to be specific … delete / move the entire section ‘Misunderstandings about modern evolutionary biology’ as well as the add on "Social and Religious Controversy". Not that it isn’t worthy of discussion … in fact kudu’s to the authors, it is extremely well written … but that it detracts from the scientific content and only serves to fuel this never ending debate.
Delete it for the same reason I do not construct my lessons from the book:
Delete it because National Geographic enraged its readers with “Is Evolution Wrong … No”. True, sensationalism sells magazine but it is not worthy of a document claiming scientific validity.
Delete it for the same reason you do not allow for a rebuttal by authors such as Ken Ham (Evolution: The Lie).
If the article itself clearly defines evolution then you do not need a lengthy section ‘defending’ it at the end of the article. It is inflammatory in a scientifically condescending way. It is not a historical perspective … it is closing arguement defending evolution. We all know this. Debate evolution somewhere else … explain it here.
And where the hell is Dawkins!!!!!! ‘Christ’ J. Butler -- 66.56.207.111 23:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This sentence seems to have suddenly become controversial:
While many other fields of science, such as cosmology and earth science, also conflict with a literal interpretation of many religious texts, evolutionary studies have borne the brunt of these debates.
The fact is that a literal interpretation means just that, literal. For example, Genesis says the Earth was created in six days, earth science says otherwise. This is a conflict. If you take a figurative interpretation to eliminate the conflict, it's no longer a literal interpretation. This statement is therefore an obvious fact. siafu 19:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Siafu, your literal translation of the Torah is incorrect. Each of the first six days in the Torah end with the verse, 'and there was evening, and there was morning, (day end).' No where in the rest of the Torah, nor in 5767 years of commentary is that ever found again. This suggests that there is something intrinsically different about those first six days than any other day in history. On literal terms, this puts into question the possible lengths and times of day. Furthermore that would not necessarily even defy science, since it appears today that our days are getting longer, why would it be completely inconcievable that days were MUCH longer, say 500 million years?
Secondly, the fact of the matter is that on literal grounds, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars and seasons were formed on the 4th day of creation. All we know based on the text is that a day is the alternation of dark and light, again leaving room for interpretation for how long a period the first few 'days' took. Since there was no period where the earth revolved around the sun nor rotated on it's axis, revealing and hiding the light, the first few days did not necessarily need to be mere 24 hour periods.
The Gould quote "evolution is both a fact and a theory...", is somewhat enlightening. But isn't it more precise to say that evolution is a fact, not a theory, and that natural selection is a theory that attempts to explain the fact of evolution? Maybe a little more clarification is required to support that quote. Awinkle 18:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The first call ... not my own ... was essentially ignore, so I will take up the banner here.
It is clear that a significant amount of space in this article on evolution is dealing with the religious controversy, either directly or indirectly (defining theory). Why? This article already has the maneuverability of an Aircraft carrier, something needs to be thrown overboard. Am I the only one that sees that you claim the 'moral high ground' based on the Science behind evolution; then taunt the creationist with your diatribe on 'the controversy'. In the post above 'Conflict and Religion' energy was expended deliberating the meaning of literal by referencing the Torah for God sake. We still devote space in defining Theory to the creationist (give up already)! This is a Wikipedia Article on Evoution not a political platform. There is a hypocrisy here that is not lost upon those who oppose evolution as a viable theory. You do evolution a disservice by not allowing the theory to stand on its own merits. Debate the meaning of the word literal somewhere else and focus on the science in this entry. Free up some space in this article ...throw overboard the Evolution vs Religion rhetoric; there are already two Main articles in Wikipedia devoted to this aspect. Social Effect of Evolutionary Theory and Creation-evolution Controversy.
Is this the weakness with Wikipedia, you can edit small things such as changing the word big to large; but when it comes to dramatic changes no one has the authority to hit the delete key? Perhaps this aircraft carrier needs a captain?
J. Butler -- 66.56.207.111 00:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Admittedly, is easier to be a critic than a contributor. I have not written a single line in the article so weight my insights accordingly.
I placed both the ‘misunderstandings’ and ‘social and religious controversies’ in my own little sandbox (Word) and attempted to edit. It cannot be edited and remain effective. If you take on the challenge of defending / explaining evolution then you can’t be brief. Those who challenge the Theory will exploit the holes … and slowly … line by line you will be force to respond; thus, back to square one. Do not edit it … as a defense to the challenges to evolution this article is extremely well constructed.
The Main Articles “Social Effect of Evolutionary Theory” and the “Creation-Evolution Controversy” may be the solution to bulk. All are in agreement that the Topic of Evolution is massive. I guess I was suggesting, leaving the main article “Evolution” as untainted (maybe not the right word) by the controversy as possible… sort of confidently dismissing all challengers by simply enlighting them on the facts.
Transfer the last two section “Social and Religious Controversies” and “Misunderstandings About Modern Evolutionary Biology” to the main articles mentioned above. If you read them, there is considerable overlap, especially on the need to define theory.
Then insert a link … Not a subtle link … but a Big … GO HERE TO EXPLORE THE CONTROVERSY. This would accomplish several goals. 1)The reduction of bulk 2)Allow readers to learn about Evolution without the defensive ‘tone’ As a teacher, this is far more important than many realize. 3)Result in an improvement to the “Creation-Evolution Controversy” article, because frankly, it may be the ‘main article’ but this does a much better job at addressing the issue. The debate over ‘literal’ and the ‘length of a day’ can take place on that discussion page. This frees you (and others) up to edit only the science, for accuracy and value. Yea… a little boring … I agree.
I am not certain how such a shift in content can be achieved between sites. Especially on this scale (The advantage of having senior editors). Those that have actually invested time may not wish to have the content ‘merged’ at a different location. It would be difficult for some authors to be delegated to a ‘background’ position. No doubt, you would know better than I if that is even possible. It may be community property, but I have read enough discussion on this one to know egos are at play.
Whatever happens … take yourself seriously. I teach, so trust me on this much... You are the source of information for high school students. That is a lot of responsibility! Keep up the excellent work. J. Butler -- 66.56.207.111 03:20, 20 October 2006
The article is about evolution so we need to cover this topic and highlight history with social and religous impact secondarily. As I stated earlier, the article starts and has a nice flow. Define evolution, History of Evolution, Evidence for and examples of evolution. Here the article goes into macrevolution. Maybe here we should to the Modern Synthesis, Genetics and Molecular Biology- Should include discussions of mutations, recombinations,non-random mating, genetic drift, gene flow, HGT, Phenotypic plasticity, Epigenetic change, mention Dawkin’s, Kimura, etc.), Natural selection and Adaptation (mention Gould’s ideas of Exaptation, and topic has a full article so just hit main points), Speciation (develop topic for article:Allo,para, and sympatric speciation, Dobzhansky-Muller Theory Of Postzygotic Isolation, etc.and refer to expansive article), Population biology-(levels of selection, effect of size (Founder effect),Hardy-Weinberg drifts towards homozygous population), Microevolution-examples of speciation and Evodevo, and then do Macroevolution for the last section-(Earth’s life history, Comparative genomics, Evodevo (which is micro and macroevolution), Gradual and Punctuated evolution, Coevolution (mention Red Queen), Extinction and Radiations). The article has the content I mainly suggest moving the Macroevolution content to the end of the article and perhaps shorten or lengthen specific topics. Drop current research, Misunderstandings (Not essential because we just educated to merits of the arguments), and Social and religious-(Address the issue in history section, because creationism and present incarnation-I.D. is historically relevant). There are articles on many topics like Natural Selection and Speciation, but we need to highlight the main content for this article.I would group all the social concerns in history section and refer to main articles of History and Religious and Social impact. I am more concerned about covering the huge topic of evolution more than all the side issues. There are so many offshoot articles that cover many topics in detail, so this article needs to be a big picture quick reference for any student to understand evolution. GetAgrippa 14:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
A separate, sub-Article can be made to discuss the religious history.
The Evolution article should focus on:
A fellow stuck in the Sonoran Desert of arizona,USA, ...- Mmcannis 07:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
"Also, we humans did not evolve from lesser primates."
...Since WHEN? I mean, bloody hell, "lesser" and "greater" are meaningless in evolution, but that's about as misleading as you can get. Deleting this section o' bizarreness. Adam Cuerden talk 23:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Suggested Edit:
Copy/pasted from Article:
Mechanisms of evolution Evolution consists of two basic types of processes: those that introduce new genetic variation into a population, and those that affect the frequencies of existing variation. Paleontologist Stephen J. Gould once phrased this succinctly as "variation proposes and selection disposes."[28]
These mechanisms of evolution have all been observed in the present and in evidence of their existence in the past. Their study is being used to guide the development of new medicines and other health aids such as the current effort to prevent a H5N1 (i.e. bird flu) pandemic.[29]
I added a creationist rebuttal to evolution in order to provide a balanced point of view for this article - other controversial articles have similar 'sceptical' external links - is it not fair to add them for evolution too? SparrowsWing 08:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
This could be perceived as advice, but since it is likely to contribute nothing, nor elicit a positive change it more likely falls under the category of trolling. Don’t ban me though, I promise not to come back … seriously. I have no doubt that many have contributed an enormous amount of time developing this article and are to be commended for your efforts. A collective mind, if you will, on the topic of evolution. Wishing to be a part, I sat down at the keyboard thinking that I might clarify some of the information in the Mechanisms of Evolution section. I deleted a line … what a sad commentary on my skills.
But in my defense. An encyclopedia is a document used to obtain “general” information. I think you may have lost sight of your primary audience in this document. For example: If I asked any of you to explain Genetic Drift to the ‘typical’ reader at this site, would your response be the following:
Genetic drift describes changes in allele frequency from one generation to the next due to sampling variance. The frequency of an allele in the offspring generation will vary according to a probability distribution of the frequency of the allele in the parent generation. Thus, over time even in the absence of selection upon the alleles, allele frequencies will tend to "drift" upward or downward, eventually becoming "fixed" - that is, going to 0% or 100% frequency. Thus, fluctuations in allele frequency between successive generations may result in some alleles disappearing from the population due to chance alone. Two separate populations that begin with the same allele frequencies therefore might drift apart by random fluctuation into two divergent populations with different allele sets (for example, alleles present in one population could be absent in the other, or vice versa).
Would your ‘average’ reader, pursuing information in Wikipedia go away with a clearer understanding of Genetic Drift? Genetic Drift is not a complex concept … yet.
My foray into the cyber world is over; back to the couch and Oprah where I can do no damage. -- Random Replicator 02:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
==Current Research==
{{seealso|Ancestral Reconstruction|Human Genome Project|Bioinformatics|Evo-devo}} Evolution is still an active field of research in the scientific community. Improvements in sequencing methods have resulted in a large increase of sequenced genomes, allowing for the testing and refining of the theory of evolution with respect to whole genome data. Advances in computational hardware and software have allowed for the testing and extrapolation of increasingly advanced evolutionary models. Discoveries in biotechnology have produced methods for the ''de novo'' synthesis of proteins and, potentially, entire genomes, driving evolutionary studies at the molecular level.
===Micro RNA===
Small RNA or micro RNA ([[miRNA]]) appears highly significant in regulation of gene expression during development. <ref>{{cite journal | author = Sempere LF, Cole CN, McPeek MA, Peterson KJ.| title = The phylogenetic distribution of metazoan microRNA: insights into evolutionary complexity and constraint..| journal = J Exp Zoolog B Mol Dev Evol | volume = | issue = Jul 12 | pages = | year =2006 | id = PMID 16838302}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal | author = Massirer KB, Pasquinelli AE.| title = The evolving role of microRNAs in animal gene expression.journal = Bioessays. | volume = 28 | issue =5 | pages = 449-52 | year =2006 | id = PMID 16615087}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal | author = Zhang B, Pan X, Cannon CH, Cobb GP, Anderson TA.| title = Conservation and divergence of plant microRNA genes.| journal = Plant J. | volume = 46 | issue =2 | pages = 243-59 | year =2006|id = PMID 16623887}}</ref> Micro RNA's contribution to evolution is considered an [[epigenetic]] mechanism in [[evolutionary developmental biology]]. Micro RNA appears to constitute 1% of the human genome. Scientists are designing silencing interference micro RNA in the hopes of shutting down genes involved in cancer, diseases, and the contribution of genes in developmental biology.
I've spun it off into
Current research in evolutionary biology - when the section's ready, we can readd it, but it's nowhere near FA quality yet.
Adam Cuerden
talk
18:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The article states:
Red Herring: "And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered." The above information is irrelevant as to wether we evolved from ape like ancestors or not. If you drop an apple it falls. This can be directly tested. We evolved from apes. This cannot be directly tested. Ergzay 01:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
All facts are known to greater or lesser degrees of certainty. We can't be 100 percent that the sun rose yesterday, but we can be so many dozens of decimal points close to certain that it is useless to dispute the fact. Gravity and evolution are ultra-high certainty facts. The theories of the mechanisms are very high certainty, not as high as the facts themselves, but they are several decimal points close to certainty. So, while there are some semantic quibbles that interest a few, practically speaking the facts and theory are used almost synonymously. Hu 08:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
The short comment on Lamarck doesn't really explain what Lamarck thought and why he was wrong very well. How about moving the section on Mendel up, explaining Mendel's work was largely unknown throughout Darwin's life, THEN moving on to Darwin: A compare and contrast of Lamarck and Mendel will quickly explain both theories. Adam Cuerden talk 15:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Graft I don't need to argue the merits of any published article. You stated their is no significant literature, which there is. You seem biased by POV and you obviously have not familiarized yourself with this literature. I am not posing one review article. As I said there is a significant literature to cite books and peer reviewed journals of heritable epigenetic change in mammals, yeast, and plants and the significance in evolution. That's it! I am not fond of the Neo-Lamarckism notion either, but it is a subject entertained in peer reviewed journals and a subject that maybe worth some mention. GetAgrippa 21:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Well drop the Neo-Lamarckism angle and just mention epigenetic phenomena as another means to generate phenotypic variation. A fundamental notion of evolutionary biology has been that natural selection acts on phenotypes determined by DNA sequence variation within natural populations. It would be nice to mention epigenetic phenomena like methylation and siRNA's generate phenotypes without DNA sequence alteration, but altering existing gene networks. I noted methylation is mentioned in Heredity section. Hybridization is significant in plants and should be mentioned as another means to generate diversity. GetAgrippa 00:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
"What determines phenotype is one of the most fundamental questions in biology. Historically, the search for answers had focused on genetic or environmental variants, but recent studies in epigenetics have revealed a third mechanism that can influence phenotypic outcomes, even in the absence of genetic or environmental heterogeneity. Even more surprisingly, some epigenetic variants, or epialleles, can be inherited by the offspring, indicating the existence of a mechanism for biological heredity that is not based on DNA sequence. Recent work from mouse models, human monozygotic twin studies, and large-scale epigenetic profiling suggests that epigenetically determined phenotypes and epigenetic inheritance are more common than previously appreciated."Epigenetic variation and inheritance in mammals.Rakyan VK, Beck S.Curr Opin Genet Dev. 2006 Sep 25.
"In plants, naturally occurring methylation of genes can affect the level of gene expression. Variation among individuals in the degree of methylation of a gene, termed epialleles, produces novel phenotypes that are heritable across generations. To date, ecologically important genes with methylated epialleles have been found to affect floral shape, vegetative and seed pigmentation, pathogen resistance and development in plants. Currently, the extent to which epiallelic variation is an important common contributor to phenotypic variation in natural plant populations and its fitness consequences are not known. Because epiallele phenotypes can have identical underlying DNA sequences, response to selection on these phenotypes is likely to differ from expectations based on traditional models of microevolution. Research is needed to understand the role of epialleles in natural plant populations. Recent advances in molecular genetic techniques could enable population biologists to screen for epiallelic variants within plant populations and disentangle epigenetic from more standard genetic sources of phenotypic variance, such as additive genetic variance, dominance variance, epistasis and maternal genetic effects."Epialleles via DNA methylation: consequences for plant evolution.Kalisz S, Purugganan MD.1: Trends Ecol Evol. 2004 Jun;19(6):309-14 After reading these two abstracts I would hope you could see the potential of epigenetic phenomena to participate in evolution. The subject is definitely useful for Current thinking article and should be developed more in Heredity in this article. GetAgrippa 21:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
After reading your comments, I am at a loss for words. I suggest you research and read the literature in drosophila, plants, yeast and mammals. Here is a paper about hybrid sterility, and a translocation of a gene on two different chromosomes allowing reproductive isolation without sequence evolution. Gene Transposition as a Cause of Hybrid Sterility in Drosophila .John P. Masly, Corbin D. Jones, Mohamed A. F. Noor, John Locke, H. Allen Orr1 Science 8 September 2006:Vol. 313. no. 5792, pp. 1448 – 1450. Further, epigenetic reprogramming often occurs during hybridizations. Hardy Weinberg is an idealized situation that is useful in population genetics. For example: Impact of Violations and Deviations in Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium on Postulated Gene-Disease Associations Thomas A. Trikalinos1, Georgia Salanti, Muin J. Khoury and John P. A. Ioannidis. American Journal of Epidemiology ,Volume 163, Number 4 Pp. 300-309 Environment-dependent admixture dynamics in a tiger salamander hybrid zone. Fitzpatrick BM, Shaffer HB. Evolution Int J Org Evolution. 2004 Jun;58(6):1282-93. It is not a joke!! GetAgrippa 02:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Epigenetic mechanisms are a part of evolution and therefore should be covered in this article. That point is not in question. Epigenetic mechanism produce phenotypic variation that can be selected for, which is evolution. However, the amount of research that has been done on epigentics as it relates to evolution is rather small (compared to other mechanisms of evolution). So yes, have a sentance or two (even a well placed paragraph is somebody feels like doing all the research), but keep it simple and to the point.-- Roland Deschain 18:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, yes, I am a creationist. But that doesn't mean I can't think objectively about this article and it doesn't mean I can't conform to WP policy.
I have a POV issue with part of the very first paragraph:
"All contemporary organisms are related to each other through common descent, the products of cumulative evolutionary changes over billions of years. Evolution is thus the source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record.[2][3]"
Science considers the process of evolution (descent with modification, speciation, etc.) to be a valid part of natural science. It is - the process of evolution could be observed, measured, quantified, etc. in a controlled setting. Wikipedia is not the place to discuss whether the conjectures made by the majority of scientists regarding the observations of natural selection, mutations, and descent with modification are correct. Obviously, I personally have not seen any evidence that any natural process can increase information in the genome (neither has Richard Dawkins, for that matter) but since the majority of science believes that such a natural process does exist somewhere out there I do not want to make an issue out of that here.
However, the statements that I take issue with above move beyond the realm of quantifiable, observable science into a set of conjectures regarding the past. And, I might add, they are a highly disputed set of conjectures that millions of dollars are being spent to counteract. Even if the process of evolution could take place, the statement that "evolution is the source for the diversity of life" reflects an extreme POV in violation of WP:NPOV. This is a historical statement that could never be substantiated - similar to stating affirmatively that "all Native Americans at the time of Columbus had reached the American continent by travel over the Bering Strait during the second century C.E.". This may be close to the truth, but it is a violation of, specifically, the undue weight policy and would not be part of Wikipedia.
WP policy demands that the statements referenced above be changed so as to reflect that they are not facts, but the conjectures reached by the majority of credible science. I would suggest "All contemporary organisms are thought to be related to each other through common descent, the products of cumulative evolutionary changes over billions of years. Evolution is thus the apparent source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record.[2][3]" Unless someone can demonstrate why the statement that "evolution is responsible for all life" is a fact and not an opinion based on NPOV's Simple Formulation, this must be changed. Thank you! I look forward to objective dialogue on this subject without the need to resort to a question of personal bias. standonbible 15:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Ec5618, unfortunately you are missing a critical distinction. I am not pushing for a change of "Evolution is the change in the heritable traits of a population over successive generations, as determined by shifts in the allele frequencies of genes." If I asked to change this, it would be the equivalent of asking to add "such modifiers to the article on gravity". Both gravity and evolution are natural processes that can be measured and don't need to be conditionalized with "most scientists believe" statements. However, the statement that "evolution is the source for all life" is not observable science like the theory of gravity - it is a conjecture about the past. You would not put the statement "all landslides that occurred between the fourth century B.C.E. and the second century C.E. were the sole result of random gravitational forces" because it is an unprovable (and un-disprovable) conjecture about the past. You might say "most historians/geologists believe that all landslides that occurred...." etc. because this conforms to WP: A Simple Formulation, which states "Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone." Just like the landslide example, all historical statements beyond a certain point are opinions. I favor attributing the opinion that evolution is responsible for all life to science and scientific thought in general by using something like "the apparent source". If you have a better way of complying with WP:NPOV I'd like to see it. standonbible 16:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
You write "Obviously, I personally have not seen any evidence that any natural process can increase information in the genome (neither has Richard Dawkins, for that matter)". You seem to have missed gene duplication and polyploidy. What makes you think Dawkins has missed these too? David D. (Talk) 18:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Science fiction is just that. Fiction. (Also, the argument that all life today is descended from a common ancestor does not rely on any particular account of where that ancestor came from e.g. a meteorite or something else). Anyway, Ec5618 was right, up top. The only issue here is whether the language provides a precise enough account of the scientific consensus, and I think it does. Let's move on. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I will be working on this - I am develping a reply. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you guys would refrain from insinuating that I am a vandal or moving the discussion. standonbible 11:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate the support from Zero G and BugEye but I hasten to point out that I am not trying to argue about the process of evolution here. I mentioned in passing that there isn't any process that can be seen to increase the functional information content of the genome, and of course when you touch the sacred cow of beneficial mutation speculation there are bound to be repercussions - as demonstrated by David D. and Roland's comments. Whether evolution takes place under observable conditions (i.e. real repeatable science) is not the issue here. The issue is whether the blanket statement "Evolution is responsible for the diversity of life that we see today" conforms to NPOV standards.
I do not appreciate Doc Tropics' accusation of WikiLawyering. If he would like to visit that page and find where my concerns qualify as such I would be happy to see them, but until then he really ought to assume good faith and accept that I do have valid NPOV concerns about this page.
You should not bring up the topic of weasel words unless you think that an opinion has been converted to a fact by the use of weasel words. The statement "Many individuals believe that the New York Yankees are the best baseball team" obviously uses weasel words to turn a biased opinion (the NY Yankees are the best) into a statement of fact without citing sources. It doesn't help your case (that the statement "evolution is responsible for the diversity of life" is not POV) to say that the statement "Evolution appears to be responsible for the diversity" uses weasel words. Weasel words make an unverifiable, biased statement appear to be O.K. by adding ad populum arguments to support the position (see the Avoid weasel words article for futher confirmation of this). Since you aren't arguing that "evolution is the source of all diversity of life" is a POV statement, avoid spouting "weasel words! weasel words!" at the first opportunity. This situation obviously falls under one or all of the exceptions to the AWW rule:
Here's the issue: even though the statement "Evolution is thus the source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record" would be regarded as fact by the majority of the scientific community, it is hotly disputed by a significant scientific minority and by the majority of the general population in the United States and worldwide. Further, it is an unverifiable statement about remote history (no, it has not been "verified by observation of the fossil record and the genome", thx; even secular science admits that genetic and operational homology does not prove a common ancestor - only a common environment). Its inclusion as-is violates NPOV and changing it to "Evolution thus appears to be the source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record" would not violate any WP policies.
As we continue to come to a consensus on this talk page, I would like to politely request that other editors address only the statements I have made and not get bogged down by trying to debate whether evolution happens today. That goes for both sides. Looking forward to resolving this WP policy conflict - standonbible 15:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
"Here's the issue: even though the statement "Evolution is thus the source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record" would be regarded as fact by the majority of the scientific community, it is hotly disputed by a significant scientific minority and by the majority of the general population in the United States and worldwide. Further, it is an unverifiable statement about remote history (no, it has not been "verified by observation of the fossil record and the genome", thx; even secular science admits that genetic and operational homology does not prove a common ancestor - only a common environment)."
What about: "Evolution is thus the only known source of the vast diversity of life on Earth". There could be other sources that might pop up in the future, but at this point in time, evolution is the only explanation we have. I still find it a deeply unwarranted concession ("Gravity is thus the only known reason that apples fall to the ground"), but I'll leave it up for others to discuss.-- Roland Deschain 23:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
KC said, "You're confusing Evolution with Origins of life - a different topic." Actually, ZeroG had a good point - that the current statement, as-is, gives the impression that the article discusses the origins of life. standonbible 00:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I see your point, Roland. The difference here is that this article is about the biological process of evolution but this unsourced, unverifiable statement is made that deals with natural history, not science. If it is so obvious, why don't you omit the statement altogether? We aren't dealing with the observable, testable, repeatable theory of macroevolution. We are dealing with an opinion about the past. Big difference. Again, compare to my example "When water seeps into cracks in rock and freezes, it expands, breaking the rock. This is the cause of all landslides that have occurred in the past three thousand years in regions that freeze and thaw periodically." standonbible 00:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It is hardly an opinion. As science stands at this time, it *is* the only accepted answer. Unless you can give an example of variety NOT arising through evolution (in a suitably broad definition to include genetic drift, artificial selection, and such) I don't see why we should change it. Adam Cuerden talk 01:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Can someone address this query? We know that water freezing can crack rocks, causing landslides. Such landslides always occur under the same conditions - rapid temperature fluctuation with running water and steep inclines. But no matter how much evidence we have that water can indeed crack rocks and cause landslides, the statement that "All landslides that have taken place in areas with rapid temperature fluctuation with running water and steep inclines were caused by freezing water in rocks" is still an opinion about the past - even if you haven't seen other ways of causing a landslide in those conditions actually happen. Do you see the parallel here? standonbible 01:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
A better analogy you might try to pursue is how astronomers can claim that gravity is the only reason for initial star formation? All stars currently forming are too far away for any gravitational readings to be taken and the closest star has already formed. Furthermore, how can astronomers say that our own sun was formed through gravity even though no living thing on Earth could have observed it. I can make similar analogies for every field of science (how can you claim water is H2O if nobody has ever observed water atoms.-- Roland Deschain 01:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I want everyone to understand that I am not under any circumstances asking for a concession to a creationist POV here. Rather I am trying to fix an obvious POV statement. After rereading some WP policy and looking over y'all's arguments, I have come up with a compromise that should satisfy everbody (and prove that I'm not just out trying to get a creation concession). The easiest way to solve a POV is to cite it, so why don't we use one or more of the peer-reviewed articles provided by Roland? Then readers can see the actual research that is done without any POV factored into the article. Here's my proposed compromise:
That text looks like this:
Oppose As has been said the logical implication of introducing this change is that "it is believed" would have to be added to all science articles. As far as I can see this is just part of a continuing campaign by creationists trying to increase the respectablility of their religious beliefs by downgrading the status of science. See here for instance -- Michael Johnson 23:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Oppose I'm not sure if you fully understand the implications of your proposal since the consequences of such a change would go far beyond this article and far beyond even science articles. Given that our observation of events is itself based on potentially flawed senses and flawed recollection (see false memory for instance) we cannot be completely confident of anything at all. So you would need to preface every single factual assertion on the whole of Wikipedia with a 'it is thought ...' or 'it is believed ...'. We would reach the point where articles say 'It is believed that the sun rises in the east'. Unless you are dealing with people sufficiently dense that they are unaware that human beings are fallible the proposed change is completely unnecessary. -- Davril2020 23:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Comment Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the consensus view of the scientific community that evolution by natural selection has been the method by which life as we know it has arisen from more primitive forms, but does not attempt to speak to the actual origin of initial primitive forms themselves? Because in that case, the use of the word "source" in the sentence under discussion could mislead readers into thinking we are referring to the topic of origin theories, which I was under the impression evolution was not. Kasreyn 00:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. It quite clearly is a concession. The statement does not need attribution to an opinion any more than well established scientific statements on other pages. Rintrah 02:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe this issue is resolved and would like to prematurely archive it to avoid any acrimony. — Knowledge Seeker দ 02:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
Would it be possible to add some of Richard Dawkins works to the list of General Reference? Personally I'm not yet bold enough to edit existing articles; especially not this particular topic where every word is scrutinized and criticized.
The primary contributors could perhaps consider addressing the current trend in biologist perception of evolution from that of the species perspective to that of the evolving unit itself “DNA”. Dawkins works stress the significance of the genetic code while de-emphasizing the bodies which contain the genes.
I guess I am asking “Why no reference to the “Selfish Gene” which reflects a new perception of the existing evolutionary “theory” (that word has been debated to death)?”
There is a significant amount of text addressing the challengers of evolution. Why is this included? The statement that evolution is the most widely accepted “theory” within the scientific community on the origins of life dismisses the need to address the challengers any farther. If I believed that life was deposited here by extra-terrestrials would the primary authors feel compelled to explain why this is unlikely in the context of the modern evolutionary views? The Burden if Proof has shifted to the shoulders of those who support Intelligent Design, Creationism, or Alien origins.
I noticed that the article on Plate Tectonics does not devote a section on the challenges made by the young earth society; nor do they address the flat earth society.
My vote is to delete all references to the controversy. Separate articles already exist on creationism and intelligent design as well as specific articles concerning said controversy. A bold request, but why the need to appease?
I hope I am not trolling …. Not sure what that means. Troll ... an ugly beast ... rude and obnoxious?
Jim B. 66.56.206.4 00:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
According to Evolution, we all descended from single celled organisms. So therefore the dinosaurs did too. There are still cold-blooded animals which some say descended from dinosaurs but my question is...if the dinosaurs all died out then how did some creatures that exist now come to be? - unsigned
Allow me to borrow a phrase, Just a Question. Evolution seems probable, until you add the question of what is original matter? Some theories say that it is the Big Bang that created it all. Now, Just a question, but if everything evolved from something, where did it start? If you say the Big Bang happened, then I wonder if you can answer me this. What are the chances of two random particles hitting each other and exploding in life. What are the chances, hear me out, lets say you take a puzzle and drop all the pieces and they all connect to each other. Those are the chances of this happening. 69.67.231.27
...WHY doesn't Evolution have it? It's vandalised all the time. Adam Cuerden talk 15:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
This article should point out a few of the flaws in Evolution instead of taking it as fact. Here are a few examples:
At the rate continents are eroding (6 cm's every 1000 years) if the earth was actually 4.5 billion years old, all of the earth's land would have eroded several times over. Which can not be compensated by techtonic activity, which is far to slow (by evolutionary standards) to have fixed the problem.
If flatly contradicts the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which states that "1. Each time energy is converted from one form to another, some of the energy is always degraded to a lower-quality, more dispersed, less useful form. 2. No system can convert energy from one form to another useful for with 100 percent efficiency. 3. Energy cannot be spontaneously transferred from a cold body to a hot body. 4. The entropy of a system increases over time." (
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=define:+Second+law+of+thermodynamics&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
Amoung many other flaws. I think that Wikipedia should promote a more even system, if creationism was stated as fact it would be immidiatly reversed.
Well, SamuelGrauer to be sure there are real criticisms and arguments to be made with the theory of evolution. However, there are no arguments to the fact of evolution (Read the definition). Unfortunately none of your arguments are valid ones, but if you pursue the topic I do believe you will see the nature of the evidence and arguments. GetAgrippa 05:06, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
SamuelGrauer, I dunno why you think that erosion rate can't be compensated for by plate tectonics. In those same thousand years the Adirondacks will have uplifted 200 cm, the Rockies 500 cm, the Andes from 60 to 300 cm and the eastern Himalaya almost 700 cm. I suspect that someone fed you bad information. Varith 14:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
The uniqueness of an enterprise that succeeds by constantly trying to prove itself wrong was brought to my attention by this post at slashdot that says "science was invented once, based on the legacy from Greece, and has since spread everywhere. That is the ONLY science - anything else may be knowledge, or technology, but it isn't science, because it's not been done according to scientific methods, where we purposefully try to *invalidate* ideas, instead of validating them. This is a very unnatural way of thinking, and has turned out to be a very practical one." I imagine many of the people who post here with evidence against evolution don't quite grasp that their evidence is from the process of science. A cherry picked factoid out of context derived from science (which is the ongoing process of investigation into trying to disprove any and every theory in science). Science is in fact an elaborate unique institution that consists of continually making progress by continually trying to disprove itself. As opposed to every other world-view institution ever created which continually try to obstruct counter evidences. WAS 4.250 14:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
"...and the recently-discovered Tiktaalik, which clarifies the development from fish to animals with four limbs." From the end of the first paragraph in section 2.
My problem is this: In the Tiktaalik page it states that "The rear fins and tail have not yet been found" (just after the list of characteristics). How can the Tiktaalik clarify moving from fish to tetrapods when it is not even know if it had 4 limbs/appendiges?
My suggestion is that the line be changed to the following
ORIGINAL: and the recently-discovered
Tiktaalik, which clarifies the development from fish to animals with four limbs.
SUGGESTED: and the recently-discovered
Tiktaalik, which could suggest the development from fish to animals with four limbs.
w00tboy
16:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Have a wee pic. Tiktaalik is a "transitional" species in that it shares characteristics with lobe finned fish and later tetrapod vertebrates: "clarifies the development from fish to land vertebrates" might work better.. dave souza, talk 20:16, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Brilliant pic. Must use it! Adam Cuerden talk 12:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as I can tell it's agreed that it's not about tetrapods. So should we remove/alter that bit to something else. Like amphibian limb etc, because that's the only part that is like an amphibian. I'm still not sure about "clarifies" though, I mean it's just another animal, and we want to be ireefutable don't we? w00tboy 15:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I want to add an external link to data that shows the percentage of the population that believes in evolution in various countries. I found this data to be very interesting. The link is: http://www.data360.org/graph_group.aspx?Graph_Group_Id=286 by JamieA
Geomor's removbed large sections, many of them, in my opinion, appropriately. However, is there anything that should be saved/spun off in what was removed? Adam Cuerden talk 16:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's all the cuts he made, with comments:
The section on Horizontal gene transfer has the following two sections cut: "Molecular evidence also offers a mechanism for large evolutionary leaps and macroevolution." and "Rather than evolving eukaryotic organelles slowly, this theory offers a mechanism for a sudden evolutionary leap by incorporating the genetic material and biochemical composition of a separate species. This evolutionary mechanism has been observed."
This reduces the paragraph into the much more readable:
Completely deleted. Since it's just a series of (copyrighted?) quotations, this may be best.
The following is cut: "One example of this misconception is the erroneous belief humans will evolve more fingers in the future on account of their increased use of machines such as computers. In reality, this would only occur if more fingers offered a significantly higher rate of reproductive success than those not having them, which seems very unlikely at the current time."
I agree with this cut: It's hardly a common belief, and it's rambly and badly written.
Cut completely. I disagree with this cut: It's probably in the top three creationist arguements - but I must admit to being worried about the lengthy quote (copyright infringement?).
In short, I think that some of his cuts, which were reverted, were quite rightly done, and think we should cut them again. Is there agreement on this? Adam Cuerden talk 22:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
“ | Not only has life evolved, but life has evolved to evolve....For example, the vertebrate immune system shows that the variable environment of antigens has provided selective pressure for the use of adaptable codons and low-fidelity polymerases during somatic hypermutation. A similar driving force for biased codon usage as a result of productively high mutation rates is observed in the hemagglutinin protein of influenza A. [1] | ” |
It had nothing whatsoever to do with complex iteration. It's a good quote, but shouldn't have been where it was. Adam Cuerden talk 12:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Evolvability is a selectable trait. by Earl DJ, Deem MW. from Department of Bioengineering, Rice University, Houston, TX 77005-1892, USA. says "Concomitant with the evolution of biological diversity must have been the evolution of mechanisms that facilitate evolution, because of the essentially infinite complexity of protein sequence space. We describe how evolvability can be an object of Darwinian selection, emphasizing the collective nature of the process. We quantify our theory with computer simulations of protein evolution. These simulations demonstrate that rapid or dramatic environmental change leads to selection for greater evolvability. The selective pressure for large-scale genetic moves such as DNA exchange becomes increasingly strong as the environmental conditions become more uncertain. Our results demonstrate that evolvability is a selectable trait and allow for the explanation of a large body of experimental results." and "Not only has life evolved, but life has evolved to evolve. That is, correlations within protein structure have evolved, and mechanisms to manipulate these correlations have evolved in tandem. The rates at which the various events within the hierarchy of evolutionary moves occur are not random or arbitrary but are selected by Darwinian evolution. Sensibly, rapid or extreme environmental change leads to selection for greater evolvability. This selection is not forbidden by causality and is strongest on the largest-scale moves within the mutational hierarchy. Many observations within evolutionary biology, heretofore considered evolutionary happenstance or accidents, are explained by selection for evolvability. For example, the vertebrate immune system shows that the variable environment of antigens has provided selective pressure for the use of adaptable codons and low-fidelity polymerases during somatic hypermutation. A similar driving force for biased codon usage as a result of productively high mutation rates is observed in the hemagglutinin protein of influenza A. Selection for evolvability explains the prevalence of transposons among bacteria and recombination among higher organisms. We suggest that therapeutics also confer selective pressure on the evolvability of pathogens, and that this driving force for antigenic drift should be considered in drug- and vaccine-design efforts." WAS 4.250 14:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The research certainly uses iterative studies, but the section is on iterative studies as evidence for evolution. This is in the wrong section. I'm not sure where it should go.
Adam Cuerden
talk
18:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I've also removed the readded:
"Not only has life evolved, but life has evolved to evolve." [2]
Because it was A. unattributed, despite being an exact quote (D.J. Earl and M.W. Deem) and B. A brilliant quote, but unexplained and still in the wrong section. We can't just assert things and expect everyone to fall into line. Adam Cuerden talk 18:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
WATCH ATTRIBUTIONS, please. You CANNOT put an exact quote into the article without clearly indicating who said it RIGHT THERE, not in the footnote. Adam Cuerden talk 18:47, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Can we please stop restoring copyright violating material? (e.g. here) The version restored to doesn't even identify one of its quotes accurately. Adam Cuerden talk 23:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
But yeah, that section needs a serious rewrite. Reading the section, I'm having a hard time understanding what it is trying to establish. I suggest rewriting in to establish the growing field of computational studies in evolution ( Bioinformatics, Genomics, Proteomics). The current section is all over the place with too many specific examples. Plus I'm not sure what the title of the section is driving at. All in all, after 30 min of thinking about it, I'm agreeing with Adam Cuerden and that most of this section needs to be rewritten ASAP. Can we change the subject to something along the lines of Evidence from Computational Studies?-- Roland Deschain 02:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Go for it. I'll stop editing that section as of now. WAS 4.250 03:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I note that the wikipedia entry on Creationism has an entire section devoted to criticism of the argument. Why is there not an entire section in this article dedicated to criticism of evolution? I endorse the development of such a topic within the main body of this article. -Patrick
This article has grown to 92 kB, more than three times larger than the recommended limit for good readability (see Wikipedia:Article_size). Could we make an effort to trim it down a bit? Much of the information in this main article could be moved to supporting articles. For example, I think a new article on the technical aspects of the theory would be very helpful. I can also think of at least one section that could be moved almost entirely to one of the supporting articles. Could one of the regular (trusted) editors who monitor this page make some suggestions for areas to trim? Enter the bullet points! Gnixon 13:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Controversial articles typically grow very large, and are then divided into sub-articles. The key to this is to avoid POV forks, in favor of content forks. Obviously this article reached that stage some time ago. The issue now is how to think about a series of evolution-related articles. This article should focus on one thing (and I leave it to you guys to decide what that core is) and should then have links to related articles AND brief summaries of each article that was spun off. I am trying to be productive and here is my proposal: what you should all be talking about is that little box created by the {{ that says "evolution3" in it. It is time to reconsider how the articles in the box fit together, what is missing, and come up with a consensus rationale for the series of articles on evolution considered as a whole - and then let that rationale dictate what gets cut from this article, summarized here, and then pasted in a new linked article. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
One things people haven't addressed is that a lot of the article size is being generated by the inline cites. However I do think the article could use some serious editing to improve calarity, I think the history section as it stands is one of the better parts of the article - clear and concise. These are a few things tha I think would amke a big difference;
-- Peta 05:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The article starts with a nice flow. Define evolution, History of Evolution, Evidence for and examples of evolution. Maybe here we should to the Modern Synthesis, Genetics and Molecular Biology-(mutations, recombinations, genetic drift, gene flow, nonrandom mating, HGT, Phenotypic plasticity, Epigenetic change, mention Dawkin’s, Kimura, etc.), Natural selection and Adaptation (mention Gould’s ideas of Exaptation), Speciation (develop topic for article:Allo,para, and sympatric speciation, Dobzhansky-Muller Theory Of Postzygotic Isolation, etc.), Population biology-levels of selection discuss natural selection and drift, Hardy-Weinberg and homozygousity, etc, Microevolution-examples of speciation, and then do Macroevolution for the last section-(Earth’s life history, Comparative genomics, Evodevo, Gradual and Punctuated evolution, Coevolution (mention Red Queen), Extinction and Radiations). The article has the content I mainly suggest moving the Macroevolution content to the end of the article and perhaps shorten or lengthen specific topics. Drop current research, Misunderstandings (Not essential because we just educated to merits of the arguments), and Social and religious-(Address the issue in history section, because creationism and present incarnation-I.D. is historically relevant). This is a suggestion. GetAgrippa 13:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
As I see it (as we are trying to cut down on this article) this section seems to be taking up a huge amount of space. I'm not saying that this section is not important. Rather I'm saying that it is so important that it deserves it's own article. Once that article is created, the evolution article can simply spend a summary paragraph on this topic. As this is a scientific topic, I don't really think that unscientific misunderstandings need so much space and so much detail. Now the obvious dilemma with this is a potential POV fork, but I don't think that should be a problem. The POV Forking article states that:
As I read this, the creation of the article should not be a POV fork as long as we keep a concise summary in this article. Anybody has objections to this. This type of move will cut down the article greatly with very little work.-- Roland Deschain 01:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, a separate article “The misconception” is not warranted. However, neither is space devoted to defending evolution. When you dedicate a section of this article defining a theory -you are not clarifying or enlightening … you are defending. The creationist sense this; thus, part of the ‘antagonistic aspect’ to the article itself. Do you feel a need to define Theory or is there a need to rub the creationist / ID’s noses in it. Reflect deeply on this… seriously. It is an emotionally charged issue and we all enjoy the debate but…
Recognize the alternative views by addressing them in the:“See also” forget the ‘spin-off’ idea … it too is just a compromise that is not needed.
In the articles on / Plate tectonics / Big bang / Theory of Relativity / … no one felt a need to stop and define Theory. Nor do they address or recognize opposing views that lack scientific credibility. I’ve stated this before … but I can assure you no one when composing geology submissions pays homage to the debate over a flat earth nor in plate tectonics do they respond to the criticism that there is not sufficient time in 5,600 years.
So to be specific … delete / move the entire section ‘Misunderstandings about modern evolutionary biology’ as well as the add on "Social and Religious Controversy". Not that it isn’t worthy of discussion … in fact kudu’s to the authors, it is extremely well written … but that it detracts from the scientific content and only serves to fuel this never ending debate.
Delete it for the same reason I do not construct my lessons from the book:
Delete it because National Geographic enraged its readers with “Is Evolution Wrong … No”. True, sensationalism sells magazine but it is not worthy of a document claiming scientific validity.
Delete it for the same reason you do not allow for a rebuttal by authors such as Ken Ham (Evolution: The Lie).
If the article itself clearly defines evolution then you do not need a lengthy section ‘defending’ it at the end of the article. It is inflammatory in a scientifically condescending way. It is not a historical perspective … it is closing arguement defending evolution. We all know this. Debate evolution somewhere else … explain it here.
And where the hell is Dawkins!!!!!! ‘Christ’ J. Butler -- 66.56.207.111 23:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
This sentence seems to have suddenly become controversial:
While many other fields of science, such as cosmology and earth science, also conflict with a literal interpretation of many religious texts, evolutionary studies have borne the brunt of these debates.
The fact is that a literal interpretation means just that, literal. For example, Genesis says the Earth was created in six days, earth science says otherwise. This is a conflict. If you take a figurative interpretation to eliminate the conflict, it's no longer a literal interpretation. This statement is therefore an obvious fact. siafu 19:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Siafu, your literal translation of the Torah is incorrect. Each of the first six days in the Torah end with the verse, 'and there was evening, and there was morning, (day end).' No where in the rest of the Torah, nor in 5767 years of commentary is that ever found again. This suggests that there is something intrinsically different about those first six days than any other day in history. On literal terms, this puts into question the possible lengths and times of day. Furthermore that would not necessarily even defy science, since it appears today that our days are getting longer, why would it be completely inconcievable that days were MUCH longer, say 500 million years?
Secondly, the fact of the matter is that on literal grounds, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars and seasons were formed on the 4th day of creation. All we know based on the text is that a day is the alternation of dark and light, again leaving room for interpretation for how long a period the first few 'days' took. Since there was no period where the earth revolved around the sun nor rotated on it's axis, revealing and hiding the light, the first few days did not necessarily need to be mere 24 hour periods.
The Gould quote "evolution is both a fact and a theory...", is somewhat enlightening. But isn't it more precise to say that evolution is a fact, not a theory, and that natural selection is a theory that attempts to explain the fact of evolution? Maybe a little more clarification is required to support that quote. Awinkle 18:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The first call ... not my own ... was essentially ignore, so I will take up the banner here.
It is clear that a significant amount of space in this article on evolution is dealing with the religious controversy, either directly or indirectly (defining theory). Why? This article already has the maneuverability of an Aircraft carrier, something needs to be thrown overboard. Am I the only one that sees that you claim the 'moral high ground' based on the Science behind evolution; then taunt the creationist with your diatribe on 'the controversy'. In the post above 'Conflict and Religion' energy was expended deliberating the meaning of literal by referencing the Torah for God sake. We still devote space in defining Theory to the creationist (give up already)! This is a Wikipedia Article on Evoution not a political platform. There is a hypocrisy here that is not lost upon those who oppose evolution as a viable theory. You do evolution a disservice by not allowing the theory to stand on its own merits. Debate the meaning of the word literal somewhere else and focus on the science in this entry. Free up some space in this article ...throw overboard the Evolution vs Religion rhetoric; there are already two Main articles in Wikipedia devoted to this aspect. Social Effect of Evolutionary Theory and Creation-evolution Controversy.
Is this the weakness with Wikipedia, you can edit small things such as changing the word big to large; but when it comes to dramatic changes no one has the authority to hit the delete key? Perhaps this aircraft carrier needs a captain?
J. Butler -- 66.56.207.111 00:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Admittedly, is easier to be a critic than a contributor. I have not written a single line in the article so weight my insights accordingly.
I placed both the ‘misunderstandings’ and ‘social and religious controversies’ in my own little sandbox (Word) and attempted to edit. It cannot be edited and remain effective. If you take on the challenge of defending / explaining evolution then you can’t be brief. Those who challenge the Theory will exploit the holes … and slowly … line by line you will be force to respond; thus, back to square one. Do not edit it … as a defense to the challenges to evolution this article is extremely well constructed.
The Main Articles “Social Effect of Evolutionary Theory” and the “Creation-Evolution Controversy” may be the solution to bulk. All are in agreement that the Topic of Evolution is massive. I guess I was suggesting, leaving the main article “Evolution” as untainted (maybe not the right word) by the controversy as possible… sort of confidently dismissing all challengers by simply enlighting them on the facts.
Transfer the last two section “Social and Religious Controversies” and “Misunderstandings About Modern Evolutionary Biology” to the main articles mentioned above. If you read them, there is considerable overlap, especially on the need to define theory.
Then insert a link … Not a subtle link … but a Big … GO HERE TO EXPLORE THE CONTROVERSY. This would accomplish several goals. 1)The reduction of bulk 2)Allow readers to learn about Evolution without the defensive ‘tone’ As a teacher, this is far more important than many realize. 3)Result in an improvement to the “Creation-Evolution Controversy” article, because frankly, it may be the ‘main article’ but this does a much better job at addressing the issue. The debate over ‘literal’ and the ‘length of a day’ can take place on that discussion page. This frees you (and others) up to edit only the science, for accuracy and value. Yea… a little boring … I agree.
I am not certain how such a shift in content can be achieved between sites. Especially on this scale (The advantage of having senior editors). Those that have actually invested time may not wish to have the content ‘merged’ at a different location. It would be difficult for some authors to be delegated to a ‘background’ position. No doubt, you would know better than I if that is even possible. It may be community property, but I have read enough discussion on this one to know egos are at play.
Whatever happens … take yourself seriously. I teach, so trust me on this much... You are the source of information for high school students. That is a lot of responsibility! Keep up the excellent work. J. Butler -- 66.56.207.111 03:20, 20 October 2006
The article is about evolution so we need to cover this topic and highlight history with social and religous impact secondarily. As I stated earlier, the article starts and has a nice flow. Define evolution, History of Evolution, Evidence for and examples of evolution. Here the article goes into macrevolution. Maybe here we should to the Modern Synthesis, Genetics and Molecular Biology- Should include discussions of mutations, recombinations,non-random mating, genetic drift, gene flow, HGT, Phenotypic plasticity, Epigenetic change, mention Dawkin’s, Kimura, etc.), Natural selection and Adaptation (mention Gould’s ideas of Exaptation, and topic has a full article so just hit main points), Speciation (develop topic for article:Allo,para, and sympatric speciation, Dobzhansky-Muller Theory Of Postzygotic Isolation, etc.and refer to expansive article), Population biology-(levels of selection, effect of size (Founder effect),Hardy-Weinberg drifts towards homozygous population), Microevolution-examples of speciation and Evodevo, and then do Macroevolution for the last section-(Earth’s life history, Comparative genomics, Evodevo (which is micro and macroevolution), Gradual and Punctuated evolution, Coevolution (mention Red Queen), Extinction and Radiations). The article has the content I mainly suggest moving the Macroevolution content to the end of the article and perhaps shorten or lengthen specific topics. Drop current research, Misunderstandings (Not essential because we just educated to merits of the arguments), and Social and religious-(Address the issue in history section, because creationism and present incarnation-I.D. is historically relevant). There are articles on many topics like Natural Selection and Speciation, but we need to highlight the main content for this article.I would group all the social concerns in history section and refer to main articles of History and Religious and Social impact. I am more concerned about covering the huge topic of evolution more than all the side issues. There are so many offshoot articles that cover many topics in detail, so this article needs to be a big picture quick reference for any student to understand evolution. GetAgrippa 14:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
A separate, sub-Article can be made to discuss the religious history.
The Evolution article should focus on:
A fellow stuck in the Sonoran Desert of arizona,USA, ...- Mmcannis 07:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
"Also, we humans did not evolve from lesser primates."
...Since WHEN? I mean, bloody hell, "lesser" and "greater" are meaningless in evolution, but that's about as misleading as you can get. Deleting this section o' bizarreness. Adam Cuerden talk 23:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Suggested Edit:
Copy/pasted from Article:
Mechanisms of evolution Evolution consists of two basic types of processes: those that introduce new genetic variation into a population, and those that affect the frequencies of existing variation. Paleontologist Stephen J. Gould once phrased this succinctly as "variation proposes and selection disposes."[28]
These mechanisms of evolution have all been observed in the present and in evidence of their existence in the past. Their study is being used to guide the development of new medicines and other health aids such as the current effort to prevent a H5N1 (i.e. bird flu) pandemic.[29]
I added a creationist rebuttal to evolution in order to provide a balanced point of view for this article - other controversial articles have similar 'sceptical' external links - is it not fair to add them for evolution too? SparrowsWing 08:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
This could be perceived as advice, but since it is likely to contribute nothing, nor elicit a positive change it more likely falls under the category of trolling. Don’t ban me though, I promise not to come back … seriously. I have no doubt that many have contributed an enormous amount of time developing this article and are to be commended for your efforts. A collective mind, if you will, on the topic of evolution. Wishing to be a part, I sat down at the keyboard thinking that I might clarify some of the information in the Mechanisms of Evolution section. I deleted a line … what a sad commentary on my skills.
But in my defense. An encyclopedia is a document used to obtain “general” information. I think you may have lost sight of your primary audience in this document. For example: If I asked any of you to explain Genetic Drift to the ‘typical’ reader at this site, would your response be the following:
Genetic drift describes changes in allele frequency from one generation to the next due to sampling variance. The frequency of an allele in the offspring generation will vary according to a probability distribution of the frequency of the allele in the parent generation. Thus, over time even in the absence of selection upon the alleles, allele frequencies will tend to "drift" upward or downward, eventually becoming "fixed" - that is, going to 0% or 100% frequency. Thus, fluctuations in allele frequency between successive generations may result in some alleles disappearing from the population due to chance alone. Two separate populations that begin with the same allele frequencies therefore might drift apart by random fluctuation into two divergent populations with different allele sets (for example, alleles present in one population could be absent in the other, or vice versa).
Would your ‘average’ reader, pursuing information in Wikipedia go away with a clearer understanding of Genetic Drift? Genetic Drift is not a complex concept … yet.
My foray into the cyber world is over; back to the couch and Oprah where I can do no damage. -- Random Replicator 02:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
==Current Research==
{{seealso|Ancestral Reconstruction|Human Genome Project|Bioinformatics|Evo-devo}} Evolution is still an active field of research in the scientific community. Improvements in sequencing methods have resulted in a large increase of sequenced genomes, allowing for the testing and refining of the theory of evolution with respect to whole genome data. Advances in computational hardware and software have allowed for the testing and extrapolation of increasingly advanced evolutionary models. Discoveries in biotechnology have produced methods for the ''de novo'' synthesis of proteins and, potentially, entire genomes, driving evolutionary studies at the molecular level.
===Micro RNA===
Small RNA or micro RNA ([[miRNA]]) appears highly significant in regulation of gene expression during development. <ref>{{cite journal | author = Sempere LF, Cole CN, McPeek MA, Peterson KJ.| title = The phylogenetic distribution of metazoan microRNA: insights into evolutionary complexity and constraint..| journal = J Exp Zoolog B Mol Dev Evol | volume = | issue = Jul 12 | pages = | year =2006 | id = PMID 16838302}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal | author = Massirer KB, Pasquinelli AE.| title = The evolving role of microRNAs in animal gene expression.journal = Bioessays. | volume = 28 | issue =5 | pages = 449-52 | year =2006 | id = PMID 16615087}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal | author = Zhang B, Pan X, Cannon CH, Cobb GP, Anderson TA.| title = Conservation and divergence of plant microRNA genes.| journal = Plant J. | volume = 46 | issue =2 | pages = 243-59 | year =2006|id = PMID 16623887}}</ref> Micro RNA's contribution to evolution is considered an [[epigenetic]] mechanism in [[evolutionary developmental biology]]. Micro RNA appears to constitute 1% of the human genome. Scientists are designing silencing interference micro RNA in the hopes of shutting down genes involved in cancer, diseases, and the contribution of genes in developmental biology.
I've spun it off into
Current research in evolutionary biology - when the section's ready, we can readd it, but it's nowhere near FA quality yet.
Adam Cuerden
talk
18:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The article states:
Red Herring: "And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered." The above information is irrelevant as to wether we evolved from ape like ancestors or not. If you drop an apple it falls. This can be directly tested. We evolved from apes. This cannot be directly tested. Ergzay 01:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
All facts are known to greater or lesser degrees of certainty. We can't be 100 percent that the sun rose yesterday, but we can be so many dozens of decimal points close to certain that it is useless to dispute the fact. Gravity and evolution are ultra-high certainty facts. The theories of the mechanisms are very high certainty, not as high as the facts themselves, but they are several decimal points close to certainty. So, while there are some semantic quibbles that interest a few, practically speaking the facts and theory are used almost synonymously. Hu 08:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
The short comment on Lamarck doesn't really explain what Lamarck thought and why he was wrong very well. How about moving the section on Mendel up, explaining Mendel's work was largely unknown throughout Darwin's life, THEN moving on to Darwin: A compare and contrast of Lamarck and Mendel will quickly explain both theories. Adam Cuerden talk 15:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Graft I don't need to argue the merits of any published article. You stated their is no significant literature, which there is. You seem biased by POV and you obviously have not familiarized yourself with this literature. I am not posing one review article. As I said there is a significant literature to cite books and peer reviewed journals of heritable epigenetic change in mammals, yeast, and plants and the significance in evolution. That's it! I am not fond of the Neo-Lamarckism notion either, but it is a subject entertained in peer reviewed journals and a subject that maybe worth some mention. GetAgrippa 21:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Well drop the Neo-Lamarckism angle and just mention epigenetic phenomena as another means to generate phenotypic variation. A fundamental notion of evolutionary biology has been that natural selection acts on phenotypes determined by DNA sequence variation within natural populations. It would be nice to mention epigenetic phenomena like methylation and siRNA's generate phenotypes without DNA sequence alteration, but altering existing gene networks. I noted methylation is mentioned in Heredity section. Hybridization is significant in plants and should be mentioned as another means to generate diversity. GetAgrippa 00:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
"What determines phenotype is one of the most fundamental questions in biology. Historically, the search for answers had focused on genetic or environmental variants, but recent studies in epigenetics have revealed a third mechanism that can influence phenotypic outcomes, even in the absence of genetic or environmental heterogeneity. Even more surprisingly, some epigenetic variants, or epialleles, can be inherited by the offspring, indicating the existence of a mechanism for biological heredity that is not based on DNA sequence. Recent work from mouse models, human monozygotic twin studies, and large-scale epigenetic profiling suggests that epigenetically determined phenotypes and epigenetic inheritance are more common than previously appreciated."Epigenetic variation and inheritance in mammals.Rakyan VK, Beck S.Curr Opin Genet Dev. 2006 Sep 25.
"In plants, naturally occurring methylation of genes can affect the level of gene expression. Variation among individuals in the degree of methylation of a gene, termed epialleles, produces novel phenotypes that are heritable across generations. To date, ecologically important genes with methylated epialleles have been found to affect floral shape, vegetative and seed pigmentation, pathogen resistance and development in plants. Currently, the extent to which epiallelic variation is an important common contributor to phenotypic variation in natural plant populations and its fitness consequences are not known. Because epiallele phenotypes can have identical underlying DNA sequences, response to selection on these phenotypes is likely to differ from expectations based on traditional models of microevolution. Research is needed to understand the role of epialleles in natural plant populations. Recent advances in molecular genetic techniques could enable population biologists to screen for epiallelic variants within plant populations and disentangle epigenetic from more standard genetic sources of phenotypic variance, such as additive genetic variance, dominance variance, epistasis and maternal genetic effects."Epialleles via DNA methylation: consequences for plant evolution.Kalisz S, Purugganan MD.1: Trends Ecol Evol. 2004 Jun;19(6):309-14 After reading these two abstracts I would hope you could see the potential of epigenetic phenomena to participate in evolution. The subject is definitely useful for Current thinking article and should be developed more in Heredity in this article. GetAgrippa 21:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
After reading your comments, I am at a loss for words. I suggest you research and read the literature in drosophila, plants, yeast and mammals. Here is a paper about hybrid sterility, and a translocation of a gene on two different chromosomes allowing reproductive isolation without sequence evolution. Gene Transposition as a Cause of Hybrid Sterility in Drosophila .John P. Masly, Corbin D. Jones, Mohamed A. F. Noor, John Locke, H. Allen Orr1 Science 8 September 2006:Vol. 313. no. 5792, pp. 1448 – 1450. Further, epigenetic reprogramming often occurs during hybridizations. Hardy Weinberg is an idealized situation that is useful in population genetics. For example: Impact of Violations and Deviations in Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium on Postulated Gene-Disease Associations Thomas A. Trikalinos1, Georgia Salanti, Muin J. Khoury and John P. A. Ioannidis. American Journal of Epidemiology ,Volume 163, Number 4 Pp. 300-309 Environment-dependent admixture dynamics in a tiger salamander hybrid zone. Fitzpatrick BM, Shaffer HB. Evolution Int J Org Evolution. 2004 Jun;58(6):1282-93. It is not a joke!! GetAgrippa 02:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Epigenetic mechanisms are a part of evolution and therefore should be covered in this article. That point is not in question. Epigenetic mechanism produce phenotypic variation that can be selected for, which is evolution. However, the amount of research that has been done on epigentics as it relates to evolution is rather small (compared to other mechanisms of evolution). So yes, have a sentance or two (even a well placed paragraph is somebody feels like doing all the research), but keep it simple and to the point.-- Roland Deschain 18:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, yes, I am a creationist. But that doesn't mean I can't think objectively about this article and it doesn't mean I can't conform to WP policy.
I have a POV issue with part of the very first paragraph:
"All contemporary organisms are related to each other through common descent, the products of cumulative evolutionary changes over billions of years. Evolution is thus the source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record.[2][3]"
Science considers the process of evolution (descent with modification, speciation, etc.) to be a valid part of natural science. It is - the process of evolution could be observed, measured, quantified, etc. in a controlled setting. Wikipedia is not the place to discuss whether the conjectures made by the majority of scientists regarding the observations of natural selection, mutations, and descent with modification are correct. Obviously, I personally have not seen any evidence that any natural process can increase information in the genome (neither has Richard Dawkins, for that matter) but since the majority of science believes that such a natural process does exist somewhere out there I do not want to make an issue out of that here.
However, the statements that I take issue with above move beyond the realm of quantifiable, observable science into a set of conjectures regarding the past. And, I might add, they are a highly disputed set of conjectures that millions of dollars are being spent to counteract. Even if the process of evolution could take place, the statement that "evolution is the source for the diversity of life" reflects an extreme POV in violation of WP:NPOV. This is a historical statement that could never be substantiated - similar to stating affirmatively that "all Native Americans at the time of Columbus had reached the American continent by travel over the Bering Strait during the second century C.E.". This may be close to the truth, but it is a violation of, specifically, the undue weight policy and would not be part of Wikipedia.
WP policy demands that the statements referenced above be changed so as to reflect that they are not facts, but the conjectures reached by the majority of credible science. I would suggest "All contemporary organisms are thought to be related to each other through common descent, the products of cumulative evolutionary changes over billions of years. Evolution is thus the apparent source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record.[2][3]" Unless someone can demonstrate why the statement that "evolution is responsible for all life" is a fact and not an opinion based on NPOV's Simple Formulation, this must be changed. Thank you! I look forward to objective dialogue on this subject without the need to resort to a question of personal bias. standonbible 15:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Ec5618, unfortunately you are missing a critical distinction. I am not pushing for a change of "Evolution is the change in the heritable traits of a population over successive generations, as determined by shifts in the allele frequencies of genes." If I asked to change this, it would be the equivalent of asking to add "such modifiers to the article on gravity". Both gravity and evolution are natural processes that can be measured and don't need to be conditionalized with "most scientists believe" statements. However, the statement that "evolution is the source for all life" is not observable science like the theory of gravity - it is a conjecture about the past. You would not put the statement "all landslides that occurred between the fourth century B.C.E. and the second century C.E. were the sole result of random gravitational forces" because it is an unprovable (and un-disprovable) conjecture about the past. You might say "most historians/geologists believe that all landslides that occurred...." etc. because this conforms to WP: A Simple Formulation, which states "Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone." Just like the landslide example, all historical statements beyond a certain point are opinions. I favor attributing the opinion that evolution is responsible for all life to science and scientific thought in general by using something like "the apparent source". If you have a better way of complying with WP:NPOV I'd like to see it. standonbible 16:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
You write "Obviously, I personally have not seen any evidence that any natural process can increase information in the genome (neither has Richard Dawkins, for that matter)". You seem to have missed gene duplication and polyploidy. What makes you think Dawkins has missed these too? David D. (Talk) 18:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Science fiction is just that. Fiction. (Also, the argument that all life today is descended from a common ancestor does not rely on any particular account of where that ancestor came from e.g. a meteorite or something else). Anyway, Ec5618 was right, up top. The only issue here is whether the language provides a precise enough account of the scientific consensus, and I think it does. Let's move on. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I will be working on this - I am develping a reply. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you guys would refrain from insinuating that I am a vandal or moving the discussion. standonbible 11:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate the support from Zero G and BugEye but I hasten to point out that I am not trying to argue about the process of evolution here. I mentioned in passing that there isn't any process that can be seen to increase the functional information content of the genome, and of course when you touch the sacred cow of beneficial mutation speculation there are bound to be repercussions - as demonstrated by David D. and Roland's comments. Whether evolution takes place under observable conditions (i.e. real repeatable science) is not the issue here. The issue is whether the blanket statement "Evolution is responsible for the diversity of life that we see today" conforms to NPOV standards.
I do not appreciate Doc Tropics' accusation of WikiLawyering. If he would like to visit that page and find where my concerns qualify as such I would be happy to see them, but until then he really ought to assume good faith and accept that I do have valid NPOV concerns about this page.
You should not bring up the topic of weasel words unless you think that an opinion has been converted to a fact by the use of weasel words. The statement "Many individuals believe that the New York Yankees are the best baseball team" obviously uses weasel words to turn a biased opinion (the NY Yankees are the best) into a statement of fact without citing sources. It doesn't help your case (that the statement "evolution is responsible for the diversity of life" is not POV) to say that the statement "Evolution appears to be responsible for the diversity" uses weasel words. Weasel words make an unverifiable, biased statement appear to be O.K. by adding ad populum arguments to support the position (see the Avoid weasel words article for futher confirmation of this). Since you aren't arguing that "evolution is the source of all diversity of life" is a POV statement, avoid spouting "weasel words! weasel words!" at the first opportunity. This situation obviously falls under one or all of the exceptions to the AWW rule:
Here's the issue: even though the statement "Evolution is thus the source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record" would be regarded as fact by the majority of the scientific community, it is hotly disputed by a significant scientific minority and by the majority of the general population in the United States and worldwide. Further, it is an unverifiable statement about remote history (no, it has not been "verified by observation of the fossil record and the genome", thx; even secular science admits that genetic and operational homology does not prove a common ancestor - only a common environment). Its inclusion as-is violates NPOV and changing it to "Evolution thus appears to be the source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record" would not violate any WP policies.
As we continue to come to a consensus on this talk page, I would like to politely request that other editors address only the statements I have made and not get bogged down by trying to debate whether evolution happens today. That goes for both sides. Looking forward to resolving this WP policy conflict - standonbible 15:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
"Here's the issue: even though the statement "Evolution is thus the source of the vast diversity of life on Earth, including the many extinct species attested to in the fossil record" would be regarded as fact by the majority of the scientific community, it is hotly disputed by a significant scientific minority and by the majority of the general population in the United States and worldwide. Further, it is an unverifiable statement about remote history (no, it has not been "verified by observation of the fossil record and the genome", thx; even secular science admits that genetic and operational homology does not prove a common ancestor - only a common environment)."
What about: "Evolution is thus the only known source of the vast diversity of life on Earth". There could be other sources that might pop up in the future, but at this point in time, evolution is the only explanation we have. I still find it a deeply unwarranted concession ("Gravity is thus the only known reason that apples fall to the ground"), but I'll leave it up for others to discuss.-- Roland Deschain 23:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
KC said, "You're confusing Evolution with Origins of life - a different topic." Actually, ZeroG had a good point - that the current statement, as-is, gives the impression that the article discusses the origins of life. standonbible 00:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I see your point, Roland. The difference here is that this article is about the biological process of evolution but this unsourced, unverifiable statement is made that deals with natural history, not science. If it is so obvious, why don't you omit the statement altogether? We aren't dealing with the observable, testable, repeatable theory of macroevolution. We are dealing with an opinion about the past. Big difference. Again, compare to my example "When water seeps into cracks in rock and freezes, it expands, breaking the rock. This is the cause of all landslides that have occurred in the past three thousand years in regions that freeze and thaw periodically." standonbible 00:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It is hardly an opinion. As science stands at this time, it *is* the only accepted answer. Unless you can give an example of variety NOT arising through evolution (in a suitably broad definition to include genetic drift, artificial selection, and such) I don't see why we should change it. Adam Cuerden talk 01:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Can someone address this query? We know that water freezing can crack rocks, causing landslides. Such landslides always occur under the same conditions - rapid temperature fluctuation with running water and steep inclines. But no matter how much evidence we have that water can indeed crack rocks and cause landslides, the statement that "All landslides that have taken place in areas with rapid temperature fluctuation with running water and steep inclines were caused by freezing water in rocks" is still an opinion about the past - even if you haven't seen other ways of causing a landslide in those conditions actually happen. Do you see the parallel here? standonbible 01:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
A better analogy you might try to pursue is how astronomers can claim that gravity is the only reason for initial star formation? All stars currently forming are too far away for any gravitational readings to be taken and the closest star has already formed. Furthermore, how can astronomers say that our own sun was formed through gravity even though no living thing on Earth could have observed it. I can make similar analogies for every field of science (how can you claim water is H2O if nobody has ever observed water atoms.-- Roland Deschain 01:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I want everyone to understand that I am not under any circumstances asking for a concession to a creationist POV here. Rather I am trying to fix an obvious POV statement. After rereading some WP policy and looking over y'all's arguments, I have come up with a compromise that should satisfy everbody (and prove that I'm not just out trying to get a creation concession). The easiest way to solve a POV is to cite it, so why don't we use one or more of the peer-reviewed articles provided by Roland? Then readers can see the actual research that is done without any POV factored into the article. Here's my proposed compromise:
That text looks like this:
Oppose As has been said the logical implication of introducing this change is that "it is believed" would have to be added to all science articles. As far as I can see this is just part of a continuing campaign by creationists trying to increase the respectablility of their religious beliefs by downgrading the status of science. See here for instance -- Michael Johnson 23:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Oppose I'm not sure if you fully understand the implications of your proposal since the consequences of such a change would go far beyond this article and far beyond even science articles. Given that our observation of events is itself based on potentially flawed senses and flawed recollection (see false memory for instance) we cannot be completely confident of anything at all. So you would need to preface every single factual assertion on the whole of Wikipedia with a 'it is thought ...' or 'it is believed ...'. We would reach the point where articles say 'It is believed that the sun rises in the east'. Unless you are dealing with people sufficiently dense that they are unaware that human beings are fallible the proposed change is completely unnecessary. -- Davril2020 23:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Comment Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the consensus view of the scientific community that evolution by natural selection has been the method by which life as we know it has arisen from more primitive forms, but does not attempt to speak to the actual origin of initial primitive forms themselves? Because in that case, the use of the word "source" in the sentence under discussion could mislead readers into thinking we are referring to the topic of origin theories, which I was under the impression evolution was not. Kasreyn 00:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. It quite clearly is a concession. The statement does not need attribution to an opinion any more than well established scientific statements on other pages. Rintrah 02:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe this issue is resolved and would like to prematurely archive it to avoid any acrimony. — Knowledge Seeker দ 02:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)