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Zdravíčko, Vítame Vás na tejto stránke plnej zábavy, prajeme Vám peknú nudu
A very high profile Wiki Editor is stating that this is the case:
Are you seriously trying to suggest that the EU is not an NGO? ... If you consider me throwing my political science and international relations degrees at you to be derogatory, then I have to say that I am sorry you feel that way. I am not a potted plant; I know the policies of which I speak, ... - Arcayne (cast a spell) 09:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm just public editor and believe that this is clearly not true, and i said so (although the original remark was not directed to me and that editor accepted it, "If you are so hung up on the EU as being an NGO, then by all means") , but i just want to make sure that there is'nt a grey area or that the article here needs to be corrected to state EU=NGO. I'll ask in [[NGO] as well in case nobody sees this here. Thanks for any guidance on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]) 20:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I did. I just want to make sure I'm write on this. It's alway's safer to check with the experts when a expert states a fact so confidently.
75.58.54.151 (
talk)
21:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
When I dropped him a note it looked like his page said he had multiple advanced degrees in the area and that he worked in "emergency management" so he probably both works for a government and with NGO's - so now I'm thinking he's gotta be right. Here's what I saw in wiki for both topics:
- "EU operation is a hybrid of intergovernmentalism and supranationalism. ... able to make decisions without the agreement of members. Important institutions and bodies of the EU include the European Commission, the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union, the European Council, the European Court of Justice and the European Central Bank. EU citizens elect the Parliament every five years."
- "A non-governmental organization (NGO) is a legally constituted organization created by private persons or organizations with no participation or representation of any government. ... the NGO maintains its non-governmental status insofar as it excludes government representatives from membership in the organization."
But Wiki is wrong all the time, it's kinda the point of this place in some ways, so I guess one of the entrys might need to be fixed. 75.58.54.151 ( talk) 21:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
No, its an IGO - my error. Your tax dollars hard at work. ;) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- the EU is not a single nation, nor is the UN or UAE. They are actually something called NGO's, or non-governmental organizations. ... we do not link flags to NGO's. - Arcayne
I've marked this as resolved. 75.57.165.180 ( talk) 13:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
In the governance section there is another misleading statement. It suggests that there are 3 alternative legislative routes. There are 3 MAIN legislative routes under Community. I believe there are around 22 different legislative routes in total. The legislation section is a little better on the distinction. Perhaps an insertion of the word "main" is needed? Lwxrm ( talk) 15:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I agree it should read 'main'. I also think this is a case where someone could have been bold enough to just stick it in (with an appropriate edit comment), and only bother arguing about it if someone objected. The existing source for that section already says there are 3 main methods, though it does not explain others.
There is a more difficult issue here which I did bring up once before. At present the method of legislation is being explained in two different sections. This is really no good, and it will have to go into one or the other. I think my suggestion before was that the two sections, legislation and governance should be reorganised. I also think the politics section is the odd man out. I would favour combining the remainder into one new section generally about structures and processes, possibly still called governance. Then have a main section politics by itself. I think this topic is probably big enough to stand by itself, though it is still related to the others, at least as currently written. The current politics section naturally divides into two, one still about procedures, and the other about actual political discussions. There is curently no mention of actual politics within the EU institutions, eg political groups within the parliament.
Perhaps the current first para of politics would serve as a new intro to a revised governance section, explaining the bit about pillars, SN, IG and areas of competence. Then the sections on commission, parliament and council, then types of legislation and how it is enacted, then courts to argue about it, and if still in here, finally politics to say whats currently cooking. Or politics as a new second main section. It is potentially controversial, but I feel debate over the aims of the EU is one of our weaker elements. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1)The first sentence is not accurate. The EU was established as a customs union and not an economic union. Given the limited fiscal controls the EU possess and the lack of a full fledged currency it has not achieved, even now, the status of an economic union. I perceive this a major mistake 2)The free movement of capital is ALSO extended to non-Member States ie third countries. Not such a major thing but important to me. 3)There is a suggestion that the FMOGs can only be derogated from on the grounds of public health concerns. This is not true, either from the position of the Treaty itself or the more general "overriding" interests jurisprudence. Also "exceptions" are only mentioned for FMOG and not for the other factors. The claim that, like services, national rules still vary in some cases is misleading. National law varies in all freedoms, to a degree. 4)The use of the word "produce" in FMOG part is also misleading. A quibble perhaps :P 5)The main section is "economic policy". The use of the term citizen in free movement of persons part is not fully rational. The ability to study, "live", and retire are matters of economic policy? Or social policy? Or a little bit of both? Citizenship involves political and social rights well beyond economic policy...Just another thought. I know this is one of many "new" posts by me, and i just wanted to check people don't mind me pointing out these things? My legal education is grounded in the EU and so I tend to notice the detail. I am just trying to help :) Lwxrm ( talk) 14:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Considering the above I created a reworded, slightly rejigged, version of the single market section. The four freedoms is one of (if not the most) important element of the EU. The old section was extremely light on detail and plainly wrong in some of its statements. Providing nobody opposes it, I will edit it into the main article.
The EU was originally created as a customs union. The oldest and largest constituent organisation, the European Community, was founded as the European Economic Community. The creating and maintaining the EU's single market has been a prominent goal of the Community since its inception in 1957. It seeks to guarantee freedom of the four factors of production within the internal market. These relate to ensuring the free movement of goods, services and establishment and capital around the EU's internal market as well as the flow of persons within the area. [1]
The principle of free movement of goods ensures ensures goods can be taken anywhere within the whole market without being subject to barriers or obstacles. This freedom has both an internal and external dimension. Internally, goods must not be subjected to customs dutes, discriminatory taxes or measures restricting import quantities. Externally, goods entering the internal market will be granted freedom after paying the Common Customs Tariff.
The free movement of capital is intended to permit movement of investments such as property purchases and buying of shares between countries. [2] Until the drive towards Economic and Monetary Union the development of the capital provisions had been slow. Post-Maastricht there has been a rapidly developing corpus of ECJ judgments regarding this initially neglected freedom. The free movement of capital is unique insofar as that it is granted equally to non-member countries.
The free movement of persons means citizens can move freely between member states to live, work, study or retire in another country. Traditionally the economically active were granted a much greater level of freedom. This required the lowering of administrative formalities and recognition of professional qualifications of other states. [3] The extension to the non-econmically active was first recognised in 1999 when the concept of Community Citizenship was introduced to the EU. In addition to extending the scope of the free movement of persons, it also grants certain social and political rights to the citizens of the EU.
The free movement of services and establishment allows self-employed persons to move between member states in order to provide services on a temporary or permanent basis. Services account for between sixty and seventy percent of GDP, although legislation permitting free movement is not as established as in other sectors. This is addressed by the recently passed Directive on services in the internal market which aims to liberalise this area of the market. [4] According to the Treaty the provison of services is a residual freedom that only applies if no other freedom is being exercised.
The freedoms are not absolute in nature. Member states may interfere with their exercise on the specific grounds laid down in the Treaty, or can rely on the case law of the European Courts for more general justifications. For example, the Treaty allows member states to restrict movements that would pose a real threat to public policy or public security. In the absence of Community legislation it is for the member states to decide the scope of the exceptions. The European Courts will arbitrate as to whether the actions of the member state are proportionate and in conformity with Community law. Lwxrm ( talk) 14:22, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The free movement of persons means bla bla bla...
The free movement of services and establishment allows bla bla bla...
Or maybe that wouldn't look so good. I dunno. -- Simonski ( talk) 17:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, here we may be running into the same difficulty as whether institutions of the EU were institutions or 'institutions'. There is a copy of the original treaty (not the amended version as used generally by the EU website?) at [3].
Article 1 says: "By the present Treaty, the HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES establish among themselves a EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY." So in the sense that they said they were, they did create an economic union. It goes on to say:
Article 2 It shall be the aim of the Community, by establishing a Common Market and progressively approximating the economic policies of Member States, to promote throughout the Community a harmonious development of economic activities, a continuous and balanced expansion, an increased stability, an accelerated raising of the standard of living and closer relations between its Member States.
Article 3 For the purposes set out in the preceding Article, the activities of the Community shall include, under the conditions and with the timing provided for in this Treaty: (a) the elimination, as between Member States, of customs duties and of quantitative restrictions in regard to the importation and exportation of goods, as well as of all other measures with equivalent effect;
(b) the establishment of a common customs tariff and a common commercial policy towards third countries;
(c) the abolition, as between Member States, of the obstacles to the free movement of persons, services and capital;
(d) the inauguration of a common agricultural policy;
(e) the inauguration of a common transport policy;
(f) the establishment of a system ensuring that competition shall not be distorted in the Common Market;
(g) the application of procedures which shall make it possible to co-ordinate the economic policies of Member States and to remedy disequilibria in their balances of payments;
(h) the approximation of their respective municipal law to the extent necessary for the functioning of the Common Market;
(i) the creation of a European Social Fund in order to improve the possibilities of employment for workers and to contribute to the raising of their standard of living;
(j) the establishment of a European Investment Bank intended to facilitate the economic expansion of the Community through the creation of new resources; and
(k) the association of overseas countries and territories with the Community with a view to increasing trade and to pursuing jointly their effort towards economic and social development.
I don't have time to read the whole thing now, but it appears in article 3 to make a list of items with equal weight which would constitute a common market, not simply a customs union. It then goes on to create a timetable for these things. Admittedly some happen sooner than others, but none happen at once. You can therefore only say the document creates whatever is its final goal, which seems to be a common market. Sandpiper ( talk) 10:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Which is why i suggested the sentence should read that the EC was based on a customs union, with the aim of creating an internal market. Within the single market section of economic policy that seems rational, no? Especially considering the Treaty says it was to be based on a customs union... I did not mean to suggest that the forming of the EC was "completed" by the Treaty of Rome. Re-reading the original "swapping" of economic union with customs union I agree this is not the best phrase to use. 137.222.85.74 ( talk) 16:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I have inserted more or less your proposed version into the article. Please have a look through. I revised the start hopefully to take account of our discussion. I think the new stuff all seems usefull, and this is a fundamental and important part of the EU. I am a little bothered that the section has roughly doubled in size, and the article is long. But on the whole I thing other sections are probably less important so we ought to be looking for cuts there rather than here. Sandpiper ( talk) 21:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The section has become to long. It should be trimmed by at least 2 paragraphs. When I look at the last para, it becomes clear that highly specific information has been introduced. That is too much. Lear 21 ( talk) 10:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I took out the following ref from the regional development section:
There are substantial economical disparities across the EU. Even corrected for purchasing power, the difference between the richest and poorest regions (NUT-2 and NUT-3 of the Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics) is about a factor of ten. On the high end Frankfurt has €68,751 PPP per capita, Paris €67,980, [5]
[4] the link doesn't work for me, and I don't really know what it is supposed to be. There is still another ref quoting some of the figures, but I'm not sure if it has all of them. Anyone? Sandpiper ( talk) 18:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I see we have had reversions today from three anon IP addresses all belonging to HanseNet Telekommunikation GmbH [5] [6] [7]. I see that there was another yesterday amongst the multiple reversions by Lear [8]. Sandpiper ( talk) 21:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
This is not OR.This is an editorial decision, everyone agrees that the inner workings of the EU are very convolueted, a result of endless compromises.An intro must be simple,this is editorial etiquet,in quantum physics we have"In physics, quantum mechanics is the study of the relationship between energy quanta (radiation) and matter,in particular that between valence shell electrons and photons.",this is quite hem according to my standards on the issue, but i understand that theirs no point about talking about hilbert spaces,eigenvalues,operators,partial differential equations,particul-wave duality in the introduction.The intro is,oversimplifying for editorial reasons.For the same reason,it's bad etiquet not to simplify the description.The other "professional" encyclopedias know this very whell,that's why they put theirs simplified explanation in ther intros,they know what they are doing,it's not out of incompetence.The intro manages to be inferior by trying to be fuller.
Some reminders for however answers.This is an editorial decision,not OR,in the same way that Q.P. intro is an editorial decision,not OR,strictly speaking QP intro is shit.Example "european economy" or "european economic policy".I remind you,that in a confederation the states are considered independent,it's a special case of a international organization,in the EU ther is a common foreign affairs and common security policy...... the decisions just have to be taken by unanimity(that's why you rarely hear of them but they exist).The EU has no "army",yes,but each country has it's won "militia",to use familiar terminologies with some editors.If i'm not mistaken,if the EU "decides" to take a military action (by unanimity :)),the whay i understand it is that afterwards it's binding on the members.The european council is the upper house of the european legislature ,not a forum of european ministers,a feature directly copied from the german federal system(= bundesrat),yes in germany,the peopol governing the landers and the peopol voting in the federal upper house are ....... the same.I'm saying this because many consider that because mister brown or merkel or sarkozy,in real term vote in the european council,that it doen't qualify as a federal structure,but as an international organization,in that sence the bundesrat is a "international organizations" travesty inside the federal system of Germany.At my knowledge this is unique in the hol word.-- 88.82.47.38 ( talk) 22:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to show that "loose confederation" it's not a bad simplification.After you read the article of Bundesrat of Germany,do you classify the council as an intergovernmental body,or a federal one?the bundesrat is the almost exact duplicate of the council,is the bundesrat a intergovernmental body?-- 88.82.47.38 ( talk) 00:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Do not get me wrong, I do believe the term "confederation" is quite an accurate description of what the EU currently is. But this view does not seem to be shared by most of the literature on the EU. As far as I know, most scholars argue that the EU is only one of its kind because of how it combines intergovernmental and supranational elements. Although opinions range from "just another IGO" to a new federation in a period of consolidation, this appears to be the most widespread view in the literature I know. 88.82.47.38, could you please cite any influential sources defining the EU as a confederation? Without them, this discussion somewhat lacks substance. Andrzej Kmicic ( talk) 03:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Keep in mind that the introduction is not the place to elaborate the question "how the EU institutional body is working" while using "meta-political theory" definitions and further explain them. The introduction gives an overview to the article and includes the most significant activities of the EU. That is already the case. The current version and its content is stable, readable and sufficiently comprehensive. "Things should be simple but not simpler" - The opposite is true as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.101.141 ( talk) 21:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm assuming that you ignored the separation below.Intergouvermentalism is just a dessision-making method,it doesn't, tell anything about how strong the union is.The current proposal,and current wording just propagates the misunderstanding.The example with Germany shows that intergouvermenatalim is not mutually exclusive with federalism.The current "bug" with the intergouvermental council voting legislation,will very probably survive well after federalization of the EU.So either you add the explanation on the intergouvermental method of desision making,either you avoid the issue by removing it al togather.It is a fact that peopol doing the amalgam intergouvermental=international organization like UN and supranational=country.How are you going to account for that in the intro and staying simple at the same time?-- 88.82.32.84 ( talk) 16:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I've had a look at the intro. I think the current first para needs breaking to remove the history stuff into a separate para. The remaining stuff defining the EU should make the first para by itself. I think we will continue arguing about exactly how to word it, but I'm going to be bold and separate off the history para right now. The intergovernmental bit seems to have been shoved to the end of the para where it doesn't really make sense. I shall rescue it from there and insert Arnoutfs proposal (more or less, for the time being, which I think is closest to the current. We can then argue about exactly how to phrase the second sentence (the first seems reasonably accepted). Sandpiper ( talk) 11:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Part of my proposal is too remove the other technical details from the intro,(fisheries,agriculture...).Firstly i recently edited the intergouvermental article,so don't look there for a neutral opinion.A couldn't find source,but the way i understand it is that intergouvermental is not meant to mean unanimity among the governments,just that the governments are discussing among them selves,from there you can have votes ,with some ponderations,vetoes for all or just for some.For example the UN security council is considered intergouvermental.The example of Germany, show that intergouvemental elements inside a federal state is not a travesty(for those protesting,yes i saw the term used that way),thus intregouvermentalism is not mutually exclusive with federalism.I'm saying this because apparently everybody has concluded that the two are mutually exclusive and only pure supranationalism can be used in a federal state or a confederation.What i whant to say is that the reason that you(the editors) are so opposed to "confederation" is that you are ,your selves misinformed about what intergouvermentalism is about, intergouvermentalism is just a way of decision making,it doesn't determines by it self how strong a union is.The current wording just propagates this belief.-- 88.82.32.84 ( talk) 13:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Have a look at this article.Strickly speaking other organizations have supranational and intergouvermental aspects,so saying that the EU has that doesn't explain much,it obscures more then anything.Peopol(including you), have an intuitive inderstanding that supranationalism=federation while intergouvermentalism=international organization.I argue that peopol think they know what intergouvermentalism is about,so they will not investigate further, my sets of examples show that you find intergouvermental elements inside federations.Just an example with russia,there are over 100 subunits in the federation,for beter coordination they have inplemented regional organizations(like in international organizations),the seats in the federal concil was appointed by the federated units,and could be recould at any time(i coul this intergouvermental element,Puting changed the constitution since then).For the EU getting federalized,i was making a parallel with germany(it started as a confederetion of independent states) in that the way legislation is made,will probably survive a federalization,i was arguing that the intergouvermental aspect of the EU,on it's won, doesn't give any significant information on the level of integration.Summary:
Ok what the hell, can we have some agreement here before people start carrying out these changes. The introduction is now absolutely horrible. That sentence about 'the phrase European Union' really has to go in my opinion, it doesn't read well at all. Can we go back to what it was beforehand and then come to some sort of agreement? In the process we can pretty much now just ignore as irrelevant discussion on the 'confederation' idea and concentrate on how we can supposedly improve an arguably already fine intro? The federation discussion is boring now and not the sort of thing we should be discussing here. The fact is there is no agreement between the member states on the issue, no agreement between academics, no agreement between us mere wikipedia editors, so there is NO POINT in trying to deal with the issue. Contrary to what is claimed, in my opinion anybody who tries to come up with some minority held view on what the EU is can either be accused of coming out with Original Research or harbouring a non-NPOV view (and that is mainly aimed at 88). Can we get back to business please? -- Simonski ( talk) 14:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Simonski... "the phrase..." is in my opinion awkward. Let's review the intro version of 31-jan midnight (arbitrary choice)
Noticing that this discussion has focussed on the problems with the first line in that version; now look at the most recent version.
If I compare these versions I notice the main differences are: (1) The history bit is moved to the end. (2) The explanation of supranational and intragovernmental is moved to the back of the regulations section, making the opening sentence shorter and (3)The line "The phrase European Union applies at the same time to the area and community and to its institutions." was added. I hope you guys agree with these observations. I will continue with my opinion.
If you guys do not mind, I would like to go back to the last sentence of the first paragraph. I still think we should replace "It has both supranational features, being able to make directives which are binding to its members, as well as intergovernmental features, as it depends on agreement between the different members" by "The EU's functioning partially depends on agreement between members, an intergovernmental feature it shares with most international organizations. The European Union also has supranational bodies, able to make decisions binding to member states." Here are the main advantages: First, the old version says the EU "depends on agreement between the different members", which is not always true. ECJ does not care about agreements between states, does it? Second, the new version gives a specific example of intergovernmentalism (IGOs) and also implicitly refers to the EU as an international organization, which is basically the legal status of the EU in the international law and a frequent description in the literature. Third, some readers might mistake "directives" in the old version for legislative directives. Well, it is not a big deal either way, but I think the proposed version is slightly better. Andrzej Kmicic ( talk) 16:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I slightly reorganized the order of sentences in the lead. [9] Now, the first paragraph sums up what the EU is (e.g. single market, common policies), the second paragraph is devoted to the EU's institutions and governance, and the third paragraph outlines the history. Basically, this structure existed before, but few sentences seemed to be out of this order. I hope you will like this change. Andrzej Kmicic ( talk) 18:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to check, do we have a consensus here then on the current state of the intro? It would be handy to have one before he who violates his edit block returns and just reverts whatever changes have been made (which of course will just lead to another edit ban anyway). I for one can live with the current version, but wouldn't add anything to it. Anybody else have any major problem here? -- Simonski ( talk) 11:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I've stuck it in, though i've also changed "in a way that will" simply to "to" as the complexity was bugging me. Sandpiper —Preceding comment was added at 07:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)--Autosigned by SineBot--)
Now, I do also have a problem with the line The EU's functioning partially depends on agreement between members, where I have similar difficulties with the word 'partially' as I did with 'extensive' above. In this case I would be inclined to come down of the opposite side, not 'partially', but 'largely'. I'm not quite sure where you place 'qualified majority voting' with regard to requiring agreement, but I would say it was still necessary to obtain agreement. An element of supranationalism does creep in, just not enough to describe the remaining need for agreement as 'partial'. Ive changed it to 'Some areas of the EUs functioning depend..' Sandpiper
I read through again and was struck by this claim that the EU has 'supranational bodies'. I'm not sure I could name them (plural), especially since they are distinguished by the way it is phrased from those areas of the EU which work intergovernmentally. Would anyone care to suggest a list to justify this statement? (not for inclusion, just to satisfy me it is factual).
Another point, I quite like the lead, but I am bothered a reviewer might come along and start arguing why it does not accurately summarise the article. Now, I think it may well summarise the important points of the EU, but that is completely different. I support a lead which does its job, not one which slavishly mirrors the article, but others may not. In particular I noted the mention of the agriculture and fisheries policies right at the top. This is entirely correct given their historical importance, share of budget and continuing source of wrangling, but you would never know it from the rest of the article.
I also rephrased the sentence of EU statistics to be consistent with the rest of that paragraph, talking about things from the perspective of members. Sandpiper ( talk) 08:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
If you 'ignore the intergovernmental roadblock of the council', then any think tank or discussion group which proposes changes to the law but has no power to impose them is also a supranational organisation. I think the element of being able to carry out the change despite the protest of a government is the heart of the thing.
Arnoutf, the difficulty is that while this is not a specialist international law analysis, it does need to reflect any such debate when stating bald conclusions. If the specialist debate says this is a tricky issue, then we can't simply come down on one side. We already have the article Supranationalism#Supranationalism in the European Union, and it says what I have just reported. It is at least very close to contradicting this current statement here. One of them is plainly wrong.
As to editing, there are things on this page which I hesitate before changing which I would change as a matter of course on any ordinary page. This page is frozen in glue and could do with some more intervention from time to time. As a matter of course, anyone overviewing any page should look at any edit with a presumption that it improves the page unless it clearly does not. Similarly, even where some very odd edits sometimes appear, it is important to try to figure what the person meant by them, and whether they might have a point, even if not as quite currently expressed. And perhaps finally, it is important to try to read a page as a newcomer would with no knowledge of the subject or any massive debates which might have happened about one phrase, and try to figure if they really make sense. Sandpiper ( talk) 11:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that at the moment this discussion has convinced me that the best way to phrase the two sentences would be to replace 'some areas of Eu functioning depend on agreement' with 'most areas...', and then leave the second sentence as was 'However...'. This would be the correct summarisation, mostly by agreement, but some areas supranationally? Sandpiper ( talk) 11:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh good lord, I lose the internet for a few days and totally loose track of what is going on here. From what I gather skimming through maybe we should say that decisions require agreement between member states together with the supranational bodies (majority in Council and Parliament)?- J Logan t: 13:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so just to try and get some consensus here on the intro to try and stabilise it (because I still suspect that a certain somebody is going to come back in a weeks time and try and revert it, so we would need to have a consensus in place to make it easier to ignore such action).. Do you have a problem with the following sentence in the introduction to the EU page: "However, it [the EU] also has supranational bodies, able to make decisions binding to member states" (please keep your explanations short if possible!) -- Simonski ( talk) 15:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
_____________________________________________________
Comments on the Above
To get in line with many GA status layouts and almost all FA articles some adjustments are needed. 1. The single sentence at the beginning has to be merged into a paragraph. An article as comprehensive and an issue as broad as the European Union can´t be summarized in one sentence. Therefore all paragraphs should at least aim to appear of equal importance and size. 2.There are probably some fishermen editors out there who are disappointed, but I think the mentioning of the fishery policies are not significant enough for the intro, sorry. 3. Quote: "Much of the EU's functioning depends on agreement between members, an intergovernmental feature it shares with most international organisations. However, it also has supranational bodies, able to make decisions binding upon member states." This phrase contains weasel words (much) and sounds not encyclopeadic at all. It has to be rephrased. I took the freedom to tackle the most pressing problems on the road to FA... Lear 21 ( talk) 08:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
1.Please see [10] and please respect how introductions are organized in Wikipedia. My personal view also tells me that the 2. Para appears to bulky while the 1.sentence looks lonely. Lear 21 ( talk) 08:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the most recent changes (at the time of typing), I would revert but I'm interested to hear what everybody else thinks. I still don't think its a good idea to have that GDP line in the first paragraph, I don't see why that is more relevant than the other stuff below it (indeed arguably its less relevant). However I'm anticipating that if anybody else does have a problem with Lear's changes, it would be over the intergovernmental/supranational sentence.. wasn't there a massive discussion leading up to that new consensus? Lear honestly it'd be far more helpful if you actually discussed your changes before making them, particularly given the importance of the introduction to the page. -- Simonski ( talk) 14:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The EU is seen worldwide primarily as a unified economic entity. There seems nothing wrong to put the GDP data in the first paragraph. The German [11] & the French article [12] prioritize this indicator very high. Right now there is certainly some room within the first para to amend the intergovernmental/supranational issue. Personally, I would prefer that every specialized explanation how the EU works should go in to the respective sections. The Governance section for instance needs a lot of work. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, if you don't like the revised intro I would suggest you read the debate we had about it, and comment here why you object to the arguments made for changing it. As to your current comments:
As far as I am concerned, an introduction should contain the very most important informtion about the subject. You reinserted the words supranational and intergovernmenmtal into the top of the article. My personal objection to inserting these words as you have and as they were used before, is that they are incomprehensible to a non specialist reader without further explanation. Thus we added some explanation. We also moved them down the intro, because frankly they are not the most important thing about the EU. What it does is more important than how it does it. Arguably, explaining this aspect of the EU could easily be relegated from the intro entirely, as a legal trechnicality, but it makes a lot more sense when placed in a paragraph together with the institutions which are being described. An introduction needs to be sensibly organised so it does not flit about from one thing, away and then back, but instead the information must be organised logically. This applies to the body of the article too, of course.
The GDP of the member states is almost irrelevant to the functioning of the EU, and is also already quoted in the infobox just right of the text. Arguably it need not be mentioned in the intro at all. The single market and other EU institutions clearly are more important than the GDP so should be mentioned first, and anyway need to be explained somewhat before mentioning the GDP, which is really only usefull to give an idea of the scale of this undertaking. Perhaps we need to stress that the EU is not a country, does not have its own economy, and thus the priorities for writing this article are almost the opposite of those you suggest relevant for writing about countries. At one and the same time you are seeking to say the most important thing about the EU is that it is a supranational and international organisation, yet then you abandon explaining the nature of this institution and instead discuss it as if was just another country.
I entirely disagree that one sentence can not sum up the EU, and think that a one line definition is a very good way to begin an article. As to arrangement of introductions generally, I'm afraid the link you gave is not to any page recommending style for writing intros. Please can you provide a better link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandpiper ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Preliminary statement of CIA WFB: [15] and Intergovernmental vs Supranational at Eurojargon [16] Lear 21 ( talk) 09:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The intergovernmental vs supranational debate is of no relevance for further elaboration in the introduction. It is clear that both dimensions exist. The neutral phrase representing this reality is now included in the first para. This article is furthermore read around the world. The EU is primarily seen as major economic player, chief global regulator in terms of industrial standards and heavy weight in WTO talks. This status derives from it´s combined economic output- GDP. Nothing wrong to include this status in the first para. The French and the German version (yes it is only written and not in numbers) have included this fact at the top of their introduction. Lear 21 ( talk) 10:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
There should be no problem to reintroduce the term sui generis instead of "without historical precedent". The term sui generis has been used for a very long time on this article before and is quite accurate. Plus: The Swedish article [17] has already successfully adapted the layout of this article and interpreted the EU in even broader dimensions. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, this is clearly developing into two issues
- I would say for 1) the previous description (which I'll call the Sandpiper version) was actually fine and with a slight tweaking could do the job and 2) the opening paragraph should not provide such an economic statistic. Given your normal taste for following the structure of country pages Lear, I'm surprised you'd want to have it there. -- Simonski ( talk) 14:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
One thing concerning FA review: These editors never judge the content! They control grammar and some rules enacted by Wikipedia. When it comes to issue like the EU, which is a highly contemporary, permanent evolving content it is no wonder that they have absolutely no opinion. They just don´t know what, where or how the EU is (even less like all the contributing experts ;) ). I have added the preliminary statement of CIA WFB: [18], which is an external non-European-source, and an internal EU-opinion-source [19] to verify the supranational-intergovernmental balance. This is without a doubt the accurate description of the reality. You should bring credible sources to continue claiming that: "Much of the EU's functioning depends on agreement between members". You won´t find them, because its wrong. Please stop citing consensus, which led to this biased statement. And Yes! still, the French and the German version have included the fact of the GDP at the top of their introduction. One last remark: The intro content in total hasn´t changed. The amended supranational-intergovernmental balance (that was needed) and the GDP went up to fill in the first paragraph. Nothing else of importance happened. It now looks again like an organized introduction. Lear 21 ( talk) 15:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Within the Community pillar both elements are present. Comitology, and the recognition of the European Council means that both the high level policy decisions and the minutae detail of technical legislation are affected by intergovernmental considerations. Equally the activist role of the ECJ, the growing strength of Parliament and the move towards QMV shows supranational tendencies. The bitter fights between the Commission and Council over environmental crime, for example, or the Pupino judgment shows that supranationalism in fields of third pillar should not be ignored. Saying that the EU contains both intergov and suprana qualities should be sufficient. To argue it exhibits one more than the other is more contentious and debatable Lwxrm ( talk) 16:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
@Simonclamb/Lwxrm: I have never written or signalized that anything else than that BOTH dimensions exist and should be mentioned equally. The last version was rather neutral on that point @Simonclamb: Concering the GDP, you start arguing for micro-inches, like a lawyer, haha. The third sentence of the French article is about the GDP. The same is true for the new proposal here at the English version. Again, the EU has become a major economic factor in the globalized world [20], [21] (you only need to scan the captions). This is due to its combined economic output. To mention this is rather natural and explains the EU in the same manner like all other sentences in the introduction. Lear 21 ( talk) 16:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I said "primarily" and "globally seen" (Non-EU-Member-perspective) as economic. This is not true for the internal (EU-member) perspective (us). Both perspectives need to be addressed in this article. Lear 21 ( talk) 17:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Please re-read 1. It said: "An article as comprehensive and an issue as broad as the European Union can´t be summarized in one sentence." It would pretend that this was possible. It is wrong and unprecedented in high quality articles within Wikipedia. Therefore every paragraph should at least aim to appear of equal size. Plus: It looks better. / CIA was mentioned to cite intergov/supranat balance. / And yes, still, the EU has become a major economic influence in the globalized world and is known for it (see the refs). This significant detail can and should be mentioned early in the introduction. This has already been done in 2 other major language Wikipedia articles. Nothing with it to do it here. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Alright, so like I said, we have to somehow agree on the following
From what I see, there is a general preference for the intergovernmental/supranational aspects just to be mentioned objectively, in other words without a requirement to describe whether 'much of' the EU's functioning is supranational or intergovernmental. In practice, both aspects cross-fertilise in the existing pillar scheme anyway, so I dont think either side really wins out (I have to say that I read an article agreeing exactly with what Lwxrm said, in the period between the previous debate, which I'll call the Sandpiper intro debate and now, which can be called the Lear debate).
Therefore, as far as 1) goes, can we just say something like "The European Union (EU) is a political and economic community of twenty-seven member states, located primarily in Europe, possessing both intergovernmental and supranational features". Granted that may not be the best way of putting it but can we please have something like that as the opening sentence?
As far as number 2 goes, I just really don't think the GDP should be at the start, I think its position at the end of the second paragraph does not do it any injustice, it is still very clear for all to see. I don't think I'm afraid I'll be able to be convinced here so the best we're looking at it is having some sort of compromise where the French model is followed with the GDP sentence being at the top of the second para, but I doubt that this will appeal to others. As always, Consensus-1 can apply, which is worth bearing in mind for both sides. -- Simonski ( talk) 11:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree a more neutral mention of supranatio/intergovern is best. I also agree GDP is important, but not important enough to be dominant in the intro Lwxrm ( talk) 11:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I think I should interject here that I find two possibilities acceptable. Either not mentioning the words supranational and intergovernmental at all, or mentioning together with an explanation of their meaning. I do not consider it at all acceptable just to drop them into the intro without explanation, because they will not be understood. This was the reason for expanding their mention in the first place. Also, they are much better placed further down the intro, for exactly the same reason that the economic data is aonly acceptable further down. This is not the core summary information about the EU. Think about it, it just isn't. A summary is the most important things. Neither of these really qualifies. Frankly, they are both footnotes! Sandpiper ( talk) 12:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, I repeat for the third time of asking, do you agree that the example you cited of the CIA page suggests we should not mention the economy at all in the introduction, and should mention it only once in the article anywhere? Sandpiper ( talk) 13:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, the first sentence should stand alone as a definition of what the article is about, in a paragraph by itself. It should not mention SN, IG or the economy which are not the most important issues in any way. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
parts(Rome-EEC), and most recent, almost future developments (Lisbon) ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lear 21 ( talk • contribs) 15:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
IMHO, intergovernmentalism and supranationalism do not need explanations of those terms, they can click on the links to look into that and the article should speak for itself on detail. GDP should be mentioned as it reflects its importance and clout in the world - to change any misconceptions about its importance. Don't care much where it comes in though. Some history could be good but kept brief as it can easily get long winded with the different treaties - maybe just that it has its roots in the ECSC founded in 1952? History is a good context to start talking about something, the era of establishment -and age- reflects its nature and so on. On the established consensus, that should be stuck to till a new one is formed, all parties should refrain from amending the text without getting support here or we just decent into the edit wars which stop this page progressing.- J Logan t: 20:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
One NO GO has to be avoided, a single sentence in the lead [22].
Because of the already stated incorrect claims and insufficiencies, I put up the following proposal to amend the so called "consensus-version" :
As to what the guideline actually says about the intro:The appropriate lead length depends on the length of the article, but should be no longer than four paragraphs...The subject of the article should be mentioned in bold text (subject) at a natural place, preferably in the first sentence.....Normally, the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail and the qualifications and nuances that follow. If further introductory material is needed before the first section, this can be covered in subsequent paragraphs....Keep in mind that sometimes this is all that is read, so the most important information should be included.
Directly relevant to my own arguments, the longer guideline says: The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article. It is even more important here than for the rest of the article that the text be accessible. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading the whole article. (See news style and summary style.)
So the intro must contain the essential points leaving out, eg, legalistic minutiae or economic statistics, which are not central to explaining what it is.
In general, specialized terminology should be avoided in an introduction. Where uncommon terms are essential to describing the subject, they should be placed in context, briefly defined, and linked. The subject should be placed in a context with which many readers could be expected to be familiar. For example, rather than giving the latitude and longitude of a town, it is better to state that it is the suburb of some city, or perhaps that it provides services for the farm country of xyz county. Readers should not be dropped into the middle of the subject from the first word; they should be eased into it.
So if we use SN, IG etc, we must briefly define them as well as link them.
An interesting footnote in the lead guideline says, For the planned Wikipedia 1.0 — a static version of Wikipedia distributed on CD, DVD, or paper — one recommendation, not currently implemented, is that the articles will consist of just the lead section of the web version. Summary style and news style can help create a concise intro that works as a stand-alone article.
So basically, does the intro contain those points most important to explain the EU, assuming nothing else will be read?
My own view on the reason for having a one sentence opening paragraph is that in effect the article becomes a threee-level definition. The single sentence as a simple definition. The intro as a whole as a very short summary of the most essential and informative information. The entire article for detail.
As to your suggestion. The opening sentence is fine: How the EU came by its name is not essential, nor is the name of the latest founding treaty. The treaty of Rome is at least as relevant, but nothing about how it came to exist is more important than what it is, and what it does. Whether it is supranational or intergovernmetal also tells the reader absolutely nothing about what it is or does. The words also break the guideline, because they are not explained. How big it is is arguably more relevant than the last lot, but remains minor information, less important than what the EU does or is, or how it works. Yor next para is the info which previously came immediately after the first sentence, because this is info which actually does describe the EU. Unfortunately you have hacked at it to remove some of the detail of what the EU does, thereby making it wholly worse. You have committed another sin, that of muddling up information, by dividing the historical information into two places, some in the first and some in the forth paragraph. The history section is the least essential and thus comes last, all together. Similarly, the consensus version places IG and SN together with the names of the institutions we are talking about, and adds the brief explanation of those terms as required by the guideline. Sandpiper ( talk) 14:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Preliminary conclusion: By scanning through the 7 major EU language-Wiki-articles some results can be stated: 1. The Maastricht treaty is high priority (@Arnoutf & others: It is not history it is reality) 2. supranational/intergovernmental balance incl. a sentence of the unique character is high priority 3. French/German article rank Economic status (GDP) at the top of the introduction. These 3 essentials should be in the first para as proposed.
Comment:A reader who approaches the introduction will most likely read all paragraphs. Because the crucial content as it was, is not changed, nobody can claim something went wrong, compared to the last version. Instead the intergov/supranat sentence has been corrected, decent paragraph layout is introduced, minor trimming (WTO & UN in brackets deleted) and even the Lisbon treaty sentence(FA -review complaints) has been facilitated. I personally have no problems to elaborate on intergov/supranat in order to explain what it means, but tend to keep the very short version as proposed. It can be concluded, that there are no other proposals made to solve the problems.By further scanning some suggestions, I´ll introduce now the proposed new version with some amendments. Further improvements to enhance the flow of reading can be made. Of course. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 10:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, you referenced the style guide on introductions (well, strictly you referenced the wrong section, but nevertheless). Your version does not correspond to that outlined in the style guide. Are you now saying the guide which you earlier insisted should be followed, should be ignored? Sandpiper ( talk) 10:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The latest new version has now four paragraphs almost equal in size and almost coherent in content. This is recommended and quite frankly, very obviously, an organized appearance. As long as there no other proposals, this is going to be the new version. Text flow can be improved though. Please do not reintroduce false claims and bad layout style to the introduction anymore, PLEASE! Lear 21 ( talk) 11:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC) Have to say that made me laugh, did the fuhrer of the third reich just decree it? I don't see any points raised here saying there is anything wrong with the current intro, whereas I for one have pointed out several problems with your proposal. I don't see why it needs to be changed from the consensus arrived at above. The points you have not addressed are:
In summary, you have mixed up the information and made it harder to understand. You seem determined to place SN, IG and the trade figures right at the very start. I think this is consistent with your past editing history, but baffles me. Why do you want to place this stuff right at the start, where it plainly does not belong? Why are you determined to insist it is a supranational organisation (see also your other proposed versions), when it plainly isn't? Sandpiper ( talk) 11:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I really agree with Sandpiper that the text gets twisted by Lears proposal. In my opinion the first paragraph there becomes the summary of the lead (i.e. the summary of the summary), I think that is just too much. A suggestion. Put history towards first section and merge economy back into second. It would look something like the following, although the explanation of the difficult words issue is not solved.
(Para 1) intro, treaties and history (Para 2) Economy, market and citizenship (Para 3) Institutions and international cooperation.
The European Union (EU) is a political and economic community of twenty-seven member states, located primarily in Europe. It was established under that name by the Maastricht Treaty in 1993. Predecessor entities of the EU trace its origins back to the Treaties of Paris signed in 1951 by six countries, and the Treaty of Rome in 1957. Since then the community has grown in size through the accession of new member states and has increased its powers by the addition of new policy areas to its remit. The Treaty of Lisbon signed in December 2007 is intended to replace the existing treaties and initiated a ratification process in 2008.
With almost 500 million citizens the EU member states are generating a combined estimated 30% share of the world's nominal gross domestic product (GDP) (US$16.6 trillion) in 2007.[2] The EU comprises a single market created by a system of laws which apply in all member states, guaranteeing the freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital.[3] Passport control between many members has been abolished under the Schengen Agreement.[4][5] Fifteen member states have adopted a common currency, the euro. The EU maintains common trade and agricultural policies, and a regional development policy. It has developed a role in foreign policy, and in justice and home affairs.
The EU is governed by supranational institutions and intergovernmental bodies. Important institutions and bodies of the EU include the European Commission, the Council of the European Union, the European Council, the European Court of Justice and the European Central Bank. A European Parliament is elected by EU citizens every five years. The EU represents its members in the World Trade Organization and attends at G8 summits and at the United Nations. Twenty-one EU countries are members of NATO.
Arnoutf (
talk)
12:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Since I have no preference for either the Arnoutf proposal or the current new 4-para version, the Arnoutf proposal is also possible. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the intro does not contain the number of members (27). I think this should be included; I would tend to put it in the first paragraph.
On a more general note, I think the first paragraph should include the information that identifies the subject, and the most salient information that distinguishes it from other entities and makes it important, while the remaining three paragraphs summarize the article, omitting things already included in the first paragraph. So, to identify the EU and distinguish it from other entities, I would move the first sentence of paragraph 2 (about size and importance) into paragraph 1.
I also notice that defence spending and military capabilities are not mentioned in the intro (or in the relevant section). Although defence is less important for the EU as an organization, I think we need something more to indicate the size and importance of the EU as a group of countries. In the debate about the EU being an organization rather than a country, we may have thrown the baby out with the bath water. -- Boson ( talk) 07:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the number of sections is currently bouncing about again, so I am not certain which your numbering refers to. It is a bit hard to assess anything on the statement 'a summary of....'. because your list itself is long enough to have taken up one paragraph of the four available for the intro. Thats about one sentence per section. Or, put another way, it is unrealistic to summarise any section properly, the best we can do is mention highlights. It is also the case that the sections in this article are not all of equal importance. Some should quite properly be completely ignored when summarising, to allow more room for the important points. If you add a sentence to the current intro, then one must also be removed. People here are not good at choosing stuff to leave out, by rights half this article ought to go because it is too long. I would suggest we delete the sports section, for starters. Sandpiper ( talk) 23:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I see an IP address has added the EU's Latin name to the infobox. I'm noting the edit because it might go unnoticed: I'm pretty sure that the consensus was not to include it, but I can't remember so I didn't revert. Should it be there? Rossenglish ( talk) 19:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Why are the outmoded dollars used for valuations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.202.134.184 ( talk) 06:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Euros surpassed the usd as the world's 'favourite' currency over a year ago.
"With more than €610 billion in circulation as of December 2006 (equivalent to US$802 billion at the exchange rates at the time), the euro is the currency with the highest combined value of cash in circulation in the world, having surpassed the U.S. dollar.[3]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro
I propose the euro become the new wikipedia currency standard, especially now that the usd is falling in value. Vlad Dracula ( talk) 07:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone replaced the oil pipelines image with one of a nuclear power station. I always though the pipeline picture was interesting, because it makes a ppoint about dependence of EU fuel supplies on external sources, particulalry russia. Thus I replaced it, but Lear took it out again with the comment "the Power plant image has changed because it is of higher relevance how the energy is generated inside the EU)". Now, I'm not convinced that nuclear is the method used to generate most power in europe. I think the image just comes across as a pretty image of a power station without making a useful contribution to the article. Comments? Sandpiper ( talk) 08:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
[23] 30% in the EU Lear 21 ( talk) 10:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
There are certainly several other sources of energy. But as long there are no other references proofing that one of these other sources are dominating in many EU countries we have no choice of keeping the Nuclear Power Image (incl. caption plus ref). I´m not arguing against other sources, instead I have argued to replace the oilpipeline map. By the way, in the Education/Research section there is an example of important other energy sources. That should complete the picture. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, I´m not arguing against other sources, instead I have argued to replace the oil because it is produced outside the EU. I transferred the map to the main article Energy policy of the European Union Lear 21 ( talk) 11:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I wonder, why the fiercest "The-EU-IS-ONLY-Like-THE-UN" advocates supporting an even more peripheral aspect. The Pipeline map included a caption with unreferenced claims and weasel words. Furthermore is Russia one of many suppliers of oil and gas. The main argument for the new image is still eminent, The energy is produced! and not imported within EU member states. That is of higher relevance. Following the other logic would start inserting a picture of Hollywood in the Culture section. Lear 21 ( talk) 15:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The FA review suggeted that G8 and NATO acronyms should on first instance have their full meaning written out. I have expande a couple of these, but really can't quite bring myself to do so for these two, because they just arent ever used in full. Perhaps others can chip in? Sandpiper ( talk) 15:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The largest city table has been tag as unsourced by an editor involved in many FA candidacies but not in this article. I tend to agree. I think the table is illustrative and not essential (but I know this is sensitive to some). If the table is deemed important a good reference has to be provided. If this is not done by Sunday, I will boldly assume nobody thinks the table should be in and I will throw it out. Arnoutf ( talk) 19:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
While talking about the largeswt cities table, I noticed that at least on my browser the heading line overlaps the start of the table, so you can't read it. I fixed this up by increasing the line height. Lear has reverted me on this twice, restoring the unreadable top line. I don't think the body needs taller columns, but I think the table is a lot better with taller columns than an illegible heading. Anyone who knows how to make just the top line taller, please have a go. Lear, in the meanwhile, please stop reinserting an illegible header. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed that the government of the EU is described in the infobox as sui generis supranationalism. On investigation i see this once said intergovernmentalism. This was changed by an anon to intergovernmental suprantionalism, and later to sui generis supranationalism by ssolbergj. I have to say I don't see any reason to believe the government is in fact sui generis supranationalism, which would appear to mean it is an innovative way of ceding control entirely to the EU. Even if we restrict ourselves to those areas of EU competence, this is far from the truth. My own reading would suggest that if only one adjective is to be picked, then it should be intergovernmentalism, rather then supranationalism. The reality seems to lie in the middle somewhere. Anyway, it seems to me this current statement is incorrect and we need to fix it. Suggestions? Sandpiper ( talk)
To me sui generis on its own is the best solution to prevent descending back into the inter/supra argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lwxrm ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear I appreciate the idea but I have to oppose this. I just think it looks a bit ugly and second of all, looking at both my Italian and UK passports, is clearly misleading. Neither of them (and they've both been issued recently) have the EU stars in the middle. And having seen friends' German and Polish passports I am almost certain that it is not the standard design. The standard design is instead clearly red background (about the only thing that is correct in your image), a line saying 'European Union', the name of the Member State, in the middle that countries' symbol, and then Passport/Reispass or whatever its called in German. -- Simonski ( talk) 10:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I´ll changed it. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
[25] There are others available, but the Lithuanian is the best image quality, I think. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The national emblem at the center is different in every country. At my screen the passport is burgundy. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Why was this cut? Any particular reason? Lwxrm ( talk) 19:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC) ?
It wasn't cut, the content is still there. It was reorganised as per outline posted under governance, in discussion with yourself, amongst others. You did not raise any objections. The initial reason was to rearrange the material so that all discussion of parliamentary procedure was in one place, as mentioned in that discussion. Sandpiper ( talk) 23:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed we have been arguing heavily the last few days, but have NOT BEEN SERIOUSLY ADDRESSING FA REVIEWER CONCERNS (yes I am shouting). I think that to have any chance at passing FA review we have to go back to the nominated version and seriously work to solve the issues raised. Future (non minor - ie spelling, and style type) changes that are not indicated in FA review should only be initiated after the review is concluded.
If editors think the version originally entered the FAR is not good enough yet (note though that a non-editor of this page nominated that version) I would strongly suggest to withdraw it from nomination as I think it is a waste of time of effort of everyone otherwise. I will revert it to the version of the FA nomination tomorrow unless you guys say it would be better to withdraw from the nomination procedure.
Arnoutf (
talk)
22:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The quality of the current article has achieved GA status and that is well deserved because of number of reasons. FA status on the other hand must fulfill the highest expectations and standards. Keep in mind that less than 00.1 % of all Wikipedia entries achieved this. I reckon that in many respects the EU article fulfills the criteria (ref, intro, layout, comprehensiveness, data). The major insufficiency is the quality of writing (I won´t be able to provide it either). It is the reason why I personally didn´t got involved in the process of FA nomination. I anticipated most of the concerns and will stay neutral during the procedure in the future. In my experience an FA candidacy needs motivated, capable editors to adapt to the demands. Nevertheless, the candidacy already brought some improvements and new external insights (not all of them useful, of course). So yes, I´m sympathetic to the candidacy, but won´t start whining in case of withdrawal or failure. The quality, size and importance (among the 200 most read articles out of 2 million) is already exceptional. With or without an official honor. Lear 21 ( talk) 09:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, before you resumed editing the page, the concerns of FA reviewers were about references and stylistic details. Recently, one poster expressed himself bemused by the current introduction, which is a mess compared to the previous version. Whatever faults that may have had, it is now much worse. There is only one person responsible for instigating these changes. Much of this would likely go away if the introduction is returned to its state pre your return. Why exactly do you wish to change it? You have never explained this. Sandpiper ( talk) 14:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
[26] Lear 21 ( talk) 15:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Has anybody ever read Encarta articles? Enyclopedia Britannica? Has anybody ever read newspaper articles, books? Several Hundreds Wikipedia GA / FA articles? NO? I recommend it! None of these texts starts with a single sentence! Sorry to mention it, but a decent paragraph structure, also supported by Wikipedia guidelines, is a must! The wording can be adapted. The lead should have 1. Location/community 2.Maastricht 3. intergov/supranat balance (I can live with a short & a long version) And Preferably 4. Economic status (mostly because of layout reasons) Lear 21 ( talk) 12:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Preliminary statement of CIA World Fact Book 1. sentence/ An external view: [27]
The evolution of the European Union (EU) from a regional economic agreement among six neighboring states in 1951 to today's supranational organization of 27 countries across the European continent stands as an unprecedented phenomenon in the annals of history.
Intergovernmental vs Supranational at Eurojargon/ An internal view: [28]
In the EU, some matters – such as security and defence issues – are decided purely by intergovernmental agreement (i.e. agreement between the governments of the EU countries), and not by the Community method
Many EU decisions are taken at 'supranational' level in the sense that they involve the EU institutions, to which EU countries have delegated some decision-making powers.
Some remarks: 1. This is now the third time, these credible references have been presented 2. References claiming that intergovermental decisions dominate have not been provided after more than 5 requests. 3. Proofs that single sentences are supported by any Wikipedia policy have not been provided. 4. Apart from fishery policy no content has been removed, most of the paragraphs have stayed the same. 5. @User:Sandpiper: Please, find somebody to advocate your proposals, if you want to answer, or as usual, ask questions. 6. The next revert to the old version, can be considered a vandalism act. Lear 21 ( talk) 09:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
So we either have intergovernmental decision, or have decision made by the institutions together, the council at least being essentially intergovernmental. Thus very little is decided except by agreement in an intergovernmental way.
I have NEVER promoted supranational domination. I ALWAYS stressed both spheres of procedures are existing. I have NEVER even started a discussion what kind of sphere is superior. Neither will I ever take part of such a discussion. It is one user, I´m not mentioning anymore, who brings up irrelevant, unfocused topics on and on again. Lear 21 ( talk) 15:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems there are two things you have been editiing to achieve:
just another edit break and a note that I have become bored supporting the consensus version, so have edited it more to my liking. I have inserted the mastricht treaty second sentence as suggested, and tidied up the description of what it does. I have also relegated the economic statistics to the history section. It seems at home there, and also helps equalise the paragraph lengths, which some feel is important. I also quite like it as 'the last word' of the intro. Sandpiper ( talk) 09:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Leaving out the historical development is finally seems a useful trimming. The concentration on the state of being is most important in the end. When I look at other languages the history is hardly mentioned as well. Lear 21 ( talk) 13:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Much as i hate to break up the party, it is necessary to ask whether this intro now fairly represents the article as a whole. It should be remembered that the intro is supposed to be a complete mini-article by itself. Without the history section it arguably has room for a little more. Which is not necessarily to mean that I agree there should not be a history paragraph. I was previously of two minds about it. How the thing came about did not seem to me the most important thing, but it is not negligible. The treaty of Rome and founding date set the thing in context as having existed for 50 years. Mention of lisbon was originally included by those who thought it necessary to make a note there is about to be a modest shake up. This has also left out the bit that the EU has steadily enlarged and grown into new areas, which is quite important. This is a history section, but the specific information does more than list dates and places. Sandpiper ( talk) 22:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, I see you made further changes to the intro, reintroducing your favourite edits.
Why do you want to place the economic information at the very head of the article? This is incidental information which really only gives us an idea of the scale of the EU but does not tell us anything about what it is or does.
Why do you favour, despite your protests to the contrary, describing the EU as supranational? Sandpiper ( talk) 08:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Please stop referring to a consensus intro, which has introduced wrong claims and weak, unprecedented layout. Please NEVER,EVER AGAIN! thank you Lear 21 ( talk) 14:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, will you please sort out the largest city table. I editied it so that the title does not overlap the body of the table. You reverted it back to the original. It is not acceptable to leave it in this mess. Please either restore my fixup, or sort it properly. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Ssolberj might be the specialist to answer this. Lear 21 ( talk) 12:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, why have you set about a program of changing all the pictures in the article upon your return. I don't recall they changed much while you were away, why suddenly rush about changing them now? Is there any reason for this? Sandpiper ( talk) 15:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
From my point of view all relevant issues/sections are addressed by now. Lear 21 ( talk) 12:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Some days ago, the image of the euro banknotes was inserted in the history section. Then I thought that it would be better to have an historical image in the history section, so I replaced the 'flat and ad-like' banknotes with a 'real' image from the euro's presentation in 1998 (with president Santer). I was reverted some hours later by Lear 21, who said in his edit summary that "The currency itself including the caption is of higher value than the inaugural act". I reinserted the santer image, arguing that it would be more approperiate to have an historical image in the history section. Again I was reverted by Lair who wrote an identical summary as last time.
Do we need an image relating to the euro in the history section (is there enough space?), and if so; which one should we use? - 11:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
There is probably no doubt that the introduction of the new currency is a historic event. Looking at the official EU History at glance website supports this view [30]. The reasons supporting an introduction of an image of the currency itself are: 1. It is the physical banknotes and coins that are of daily importance and not the inaugural act 2. The inaugural act does not cover all countries which have joined after 2002. 3. The mentioned official EU website can work as a model how to present the currency/ historic event. 4. The history section includes already 2 images of officials/politicians and does not need another. 5. My personal sense of aesthetics tells me, that the 2 guys presenting the oversize coin are not made for cameras (Don´t tell them) Lear 21 ( talk) 15:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The ECB/Frankfurt image represents the Monetary Government and is now correctly placed in the respective section. The banknote/image represents the new peoples currency and therefore the historic shift replacing the old national currencies. It is not a double information! Because of the historic significance the banknote image is needed. I will slightly expand the History section in order to create more space and address some under represented issues. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
There should be no problem to trim the long text at the EURO image. @Ssolbergj: You have long reputation of installing high quality visual content. That is very much appreciated. The proposed Santer/Euro image is on the other hand not convincing. Neither are the two officials important to represent the new currency, nor is one oversized coin a useful representation of a new currency. I also wonder, why displaying the banknote image should suddenly be a problem. It has been on the article for almost a year now. The major message to be transported by the image is, that a new CURRENCY has been introduced. That is of major significance for EU history. I have no problem with other convincing proposals showing the currency itself. Expanding the section´s written content should´nt be a problem either. Hope you can support this view. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 16:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
From my perspective we have the following situation: There is (hopefully) an agreement that the EURO currency deserves representation. The Euro-Currency image has been already at the article for almost a year without being questioned. The new Santer/image is for a number of stated reasons, unacceptable from my perspective. Conclusions: Either we have new proposals or we rather keep the established image. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 14:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The order and importance of arguments (as already stated): 1. The historic event is that physical banknotes and coins replacing national currencies and not the inaugural act 2. The inaugural act does not cover all countries which have joined after 2002. 3. The official EU website can work as a model how to present the currency/ historic event. [31] 4. The history section includes already 2 images of officials/politicians and does not need another, a little variation is no harm 5. My personal sense of aesthetics is the last! important of all arguments Lear 21 ( talk) 15:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
For more than 300 million EU citizens the historical event is the replacement of their old currency. That makes 300 million historic events, IT´S THE CURRENCY! Anyway, this has become arguing around circles. I see the following question: The image of the Euro currency is indispensable for this article. Because, the ECB image is indispensable as well, I ask you what or where are the alternative solutions? And what about this [32] Lear 21 ( talk) 17:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
There are three history images right now. Which one is coming out to make space for the euro? And... write something more so as to make space for another picture????????????? Sandpiper ( talk) 22:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Talk:List_of_largest_empires#EU can you provide something to state that EU is now an Empire? AtomAtom ( talk) 19:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Even Barasso said is an Empire . .-- AtomAtom ( talk) 20:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
“ | What we have is the first non-imperial empire...We have twenty-seven countries that fully decided to work together and to pool their sovereignty. I believe it is a great construction and we should be proud of it. | ” |
— José Manuel Barroso, 2007 |
Global power, global influence, how can you define it? Yes, you know that when you act like one you're like one. If you play like an Empire you're an Empire. The shape and the form does not count. AtomAtom ( talk) 20:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Barroso stated that the EU has dimensions like an Empire but acts politically non-imperial. It´s a catchy phrase but nothing more. An Empire projects imperial power from a center. The EU is the opposite, 27 countries pooled their souvereignity and are still enacting legislation by intergovernmental, unanimous procedures. Secondly, the power of the respective EU countries has still a high degree of independence. Lear 21 ( talk) 09:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I dont know how it appears on others screens, but on mine the EU map is really a little too big. I'm not sure how to fix this, but do others have views on this? My screen size is 1150x864. Sandpiper ( talk) 22:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Because of the highly instable character of the articles introduction the GA status should be questioned. Stability is one of the preconditions to uphold this status. This is not the case for more than a week now. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The article would be more stable if we tried to come to some sort-of agreement on the intro, instead of the constant cross changing/reverting currently going on. Lwxrm ( talk) 14:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
User Lear 21 has been, among others, a central part to the EU article for more than a year.. I would not doubt it for a moment. Definitely central to all disagreements I have seen. How many editors have you chased away from this page? The user ensured major waves of improvements in all aspects of the article. since I first edited this page, this has not been the case. Since I have been here, Lear has mostly been defending his entrenched views against attempted alterations by others. It may be that previously he made important improvements, but new editors arrive with new ideas. The user itself ensured a stable quality to the article, Yes, constantly suffering reversions and changes. which has become a model for other EU Wiki languages. I have noticed that frequently other language articles are simply translations of the english ones, whether good or bad. This record can not be claimed by several new editors. Personally, my favourite moment was finding that a picture I had uploaded to wiki had been moved to commons by someone who thought so well of it that he copied it there because he wanted to use it in a different language.User Lear 21 is certainly not impeccable but has proven an adaptability in all stages of the article´s development.. In my experience, Lears adaptability is only in producing alternative versions of a text which still maintain the edits he wishes to make. This can not be claimed by notably one new editor. Is that me? I do not give in to bullies, in fact they tend to make me stubborn. The article was going swimmingly with good debate and consensus article writing in the absence of the one editor who had been banned, Lear.
The FA review noted the main page editors, Lear being top with about 800 edits. Someone else observed, just how many of these were new contributionss, and how many were edits made during content wars? Sandpiper ( talk) 16:58, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, as a case in point you are now arguing that the article is unsuitable for FA (you posted this on the FA review) and should not have GA, because of the multiple reversions you have made to the introduction??? Had you not returned to editing this page after your ban, there would be no problem about the intro or its stability. Can you deny this? Sandpiper ( talk)
Usually I don´t take part in discussions dealing with user behaviour or questions about who said what, when! But because I started it we can go on with this fun.
The only principle which drives me in Wikipedia is to ensure high quality, factual accuracy and an up to date comprehensive presentation of 3 articles. One of them EU. To understand what quality standards are set in Wikipedia I have read and even more important compared Hundreds of articles in terms of content, wording and layout. In the majority city- country- politics related articles many with FA status as well. I also read more than 10 newspapers online every day for more or less 10 years now. Among them FT, New York Times, L.A. Times, BBC Europe frequently. To a very high degree I very much know the most present issues, attitudes and images towards, for instance, The European Union. The internal European view as well as the global external view.
The only indication about the attitudes, intentions, interests and the quality of work I have from other editors is their edit record. Namely user Sandpiper has left no evidence in providing convincing argumentation, proposals or quality of prose to Wikipedia in general and the EU article specifically. It might sound undiplomatic, but the unique desire of any user changing and participating is just not enough. Especially not when it comes to one of the most read and already highly developed articles at Wikipedia. I have to reject Arnoutf accusations concerning FA candidacy in all terms .
The content and appearance of the engl. EU article established a comprehensiveness and standards unimaginable before(look at December 2006, only 15 months ago)! There is no doubt that a quantum leap has happened in several aspects. It is also clear that this new standard has been already copied. Therefore it must be uphold. Because of the progressing character of the EU itself, the absence of mainstream attitudes, mainstream-knowledge (specifically engl. speaking UK) and the lack of independent sources the EU article is under constant crossfire. This is also reflected in the media, and among member countries.
Finally, I can only insist on : concentrating on content, taking a clear stance on what is In & what is Out, presenting highly reliable sources or comparisons, avoiding lengthy argumentation (see my bad example) while developing a clear cut pro contra discussion culture. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 13:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
@Arnoutf: I absolutely agree on the necessary preconditions of an external peer-review without evolved editors. You are correct about that and I previously aimed to stay neutral during the procedure. But I consider myself also as an Wikipedian who cares about accuracy and style in all articles. The minor 2 points I raised during the candidacy were plainly wrong with or without my editorship. I could easily raise a number of insufficiencies and weak wording, but I won´t. The introduction should at least maintain " an almost accurate " part of the article. By the time the 2 points are addressed, they will be de-listed immediately. Lear 21 ( talk) 16:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
From now on, I will NEVER, I promise, NEVER EVER comment any behaviour or useless chatting anymore. I expect that from every other user as well, and please tell every other user...@Simonski: What is your stance towards a history para in the introduction? Where is your stance?? Where is your stance on "much of the EU functioning, bla,bla,bla" Where is your stance?? Are you defending this shit? What have you done to improve the very obvious misguided statements? You can go on accusing, whining, misinterpreting. You can go on with superfluous palaver or you can involve yourself with short pro/contra statements. There will be always transformation to this article, but it should be well argued. The funny thing is, I hate being the housekeeper. The funny thing is, that I am a happy person knowing that with my help 3 major articles have improved massively. But the unfunny thing is that good things have to be kept up. It is very easy to convince me, with quality or a good faith edit record in respective articles. Starting your edits with: "Fuck section this", "Fuck section that", "Fuck supranational", "Fuck all images", "Fuck all layout rules", "EU is only UN", etc., etc., etc. ... these kind of edits right at the beginning does not raise my trust in good faith or good knowledge either. Lear 21 ( talk) 18:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed someone just added a sentence to the history section about the parliament elections, half of which repeated the sentence before, but half of which ws a new point. Lear has also made some recent additions, and others have. The history section is creeping bigger all the time. Is this desireable, or even permissable given the existence of a perfectly good history article, and the excessive length of this one? Sandpiper ( talk)
Someone added them....Lear. It is a bit of a circular argument. Add more content and then it suggests having sections. less content, no need for sections. So I havn't worried about it just at the moment, but thought we needed to address the growth issue. Would you suggest we delete sports and have the extra paras on history? I am rather inclined to think this article does not need more history, and definitely does need pruning. The problem has always been that no one agrees where. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The history section says In 2002 euro notes and coins replaced national currencies in 12 of the member states. In 2004 ten new countries (eight of which had formerly been Eastern Bloc countries) joined the EU.[16] At the start of 2007 Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU and the euro was adopted by Slovenia. On 1st January 2008, Malta and Cyprus joined the Eurozone.[16]
The monetary union section says at more lengthNine years later the euro was launched in eleven of the then fifteen member states as an accounting currency, meaning that national currencies remained in use but with exchange rates locked to the euro. On 1 January 2002, euro notes and coins were issued and the national currencies were phased out. Membership increased to twelve in 2002 and now fifteen countries belong to the Eurozone using the euro as their sole official currency. All other EU members except Denmark and the United Kingdom have agreed to join as a condition of being members of the EU. Slovenia adopted the Euro on the 1 January 2007, Cyprus and Malta on the 1 January 2008. Dates for others will be set when economic conditions have been met.
So basically history repeats what is in monetary union. how to reduce this reptition? Sandpiper ( talk) 21:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I commend you for knocking out 10 words, but we have also lost some names of the countries concerned. This may not mater as the next section lists all the members. Is there anything we could reasonably do to only mention members once, so either historically naming them as they join, or just in the list? The trouble with just scrapping the list is that it then becomes difficult to find the members in this history speel where they would only be mentioned as they join. On the other hand, people may be interested to read when their particular country joined. They are all on the map of EU members. Would that do so we could scrap listing them? Or is this info so essential it needs to be re-atated? Sandpiper ( talk)
A sentence in the 1st paragraph says "EU generates ... in 2007". Can it be changed so that it has the actual share for that year and not an estimate"? 90.190.225.121 ( talk) 14:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Monetary union Further information: Euro and Economic and Monetary Union of the European Union
"All other EU members except Denmark and the United Kingdom have agreed to join as a condition of being members of the EU and dates for this will be set when economic conditions have been met. Public opinion in Denmark currently favours joining. Sweden has pointedly failed to take necessary economic steps."
I would say that this is not only misleading but a strange lie. Even more so since the reason Sweden hasn't joined is duly covered in other articles on Wikipedia. Namely that there was a ballot on whether to join or not. (nevermind the specifics around that.) "The necessary economic steps" has never been an issue.
Or am I wrong? Then someone put a reference there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.229.224 ( talk) 20:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The section for the Commission is shockingly small. For example its role of being the motor of integration and the EU POV (as opposed to intergovernmental 'nationalism' in the council) isn't mentioned as far as I can see. And that the number of commissioners will be dramatically reduced after 2014 isn't mentioned either. Could it be a good solution to merge the "Politics" section (which is rather small also) into the "Governance" section, in order to provide more 'meat on the bones' of the different institutions and prevent duplication of information? Barroso's image would certainly not be misplaced had it been in the commission section. - -- 01:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The dissolution of the single Politics section seems reasonable. After trimming the content of the section it could be merged into other sections. Especially the second para seems weak and could be dissolved. Personally, I could even do without all paras. The Barroso image should be kept though. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 12:40, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
International Herald Tribune about Key EU accomplishments over the past 50 years Lear 21 ( talk) 13:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Right, I was thinking - it seems to be going incredibly slow, and the feedback from the reviewers quite frankly has been, well, crap (though it has pointed out a few things we had missed) - it has seemed almost half-assed and I don't think they seem to have any intention of granting the page FA at the moment. On top of that, surely we can't possibly expect them to even consider FA when we haven't even got a consensus-based intro at the moment. So, what do you guys think, should we not just leave FA review for just now, iron out the last few things and then try again later this year? -- Simonski ( talk) 18:51, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Yup it is closed the article was not promoted. My take on why we failed:
If we are not willing / able to these 3 conditions, I think this article going through future FA reviews is not only useless, but a waste of the, already overstretched, time of the FA candidacy reviewers. Arnoutf ( talk) 14:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I have in my hand received today the Single payment scheme handbook and guidance for England 2008, published by the RPA, for DEFRA, for the government. From it i quote, The european council has set a 0% rate of compulsory set-aside for the 2008 scheme year....
Do readers get the impression from this article that the European council, composed of heads of government and meeting four times a year would be the body which decided this? Right now I don't know if this is true or not, but I suspect it isn't. Sandpiper ( talk) 12:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Another example. Here is a EU paper talking about CAP regulations [35]. It refers to decisions of the Council of the European Union. I point it out because it is referred to in this other document from hmso of the UK government [36]. That document refers to the first one, talking about European council regulations.
I conclude from this that the article is incorrect. The EU may consider that the European council is simply the heads of state, but UK government seems to think the European council is the same thing as the council of the European union. This makes a nonsense of the distinction between the names being made in the article. ANyone seeing a UK government publication referring to the the european council, checking it on wiki, would be misled. Now, any of you lawyer types have a view on this? It seems as though we need to return to the common sense view that the names are in practice used interchangeably. http://www.england-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/em2005/uksiem_20053460_en.pdf Sandpiper ( talk) 09:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
By that logic wouldn't you need to check what every Member State uses? Does the British government ALWAYS make this mistake? I think not. If you check the FCO http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1138870963214 it clearly makes a disctinction between the two, signalling (as I have said all along) the European Council has no legislative function. The FCO is the "home" to the Minister for Europe, and so I think their view is more telling. Lwxrm ( talk) 11:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Do we have any credible sources that say "the people" use it in this way? Lwxrm ( talk) 09:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
What about adding some info and link about EU Tube???-- Kozuch ( talk) 19:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Because of the official character of EU Tube, I think it is credible & relevant enough to be re-integrated here. Lear 21 ( talk) 15:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, I am asking - is there a way to include the link? I would do it but the "External links" section is all Spanish to me (read is not a standard "EL" section)... I dont want to break formating or whatever...-- Kozuch ( talk) 22:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
It should be mentioned somewhere(the intro?) that the bundesrat is similar to the council of ministers.Is my understanding that people consider a structure like the council exclusively a international organization thing,but we have exactly that in Germany,apparently it's unique.-- 88.82.47.84 ( talk) 16:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I agree that the Bundesrat and the Council of the European Union are similar designs. However, I don't think this fact is noteworthy enough to put in the introduction. Also, it would be interesting to know whether this is just a historical coincidence, or whether the design of the Bundesrat was in fact an influence in the development of the EU. I would suspect it was more a coincidence than a conscious decision -- up until the introduction of QMV and co-decision, the development of the Council of the EU was just like any other international organization's ministerial council; and QMV & co-decision were introduced, not to make the Council like the Bundesrat, but rather because they made sense as a way to try to speed up integration (QMV) and tackle the "democratic deficit" (co-decision). -- SJK ( talk) 02:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Turn your back, and what do you get? What exactly is a 'member common to sovereign contries'? Why do supranational institiutions, for example the court, only concern themselves with economic affairs? Sandpiper ( talk) 22:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I see we now have Particularly the need for modereration of the single market has prompted the establishment of bodies capable of making decisions without the consent of national governments. The exact distribution of competences between member states and Union is explicitly defined in the proposed Treaty of Lisbon. ER what? the need for moderation of the single market was the reason for creating the european court, commission, central bank? I though some of these were created for the european coal and steel agreement, before the single market existed? What does 'moderation of the single market' mean? Then, why do we say the Lisbon treaty will resolve an implicitly unresolved existing distribution of competences between states and the EU? This is completely back to front, as well as wrong. There is obviously an existing distribution of powers, Lisbon just moves the deckchairs around a bit. The present para utterly fails to explain SN, IG, and is frankly now veering on the wholly incomprehensible. Sandpiper ( talk) 09:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Really not sure about this new image. I would recommend that we get rid of it personally. Anybody else agree? -- Simonski ( talk) 14:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice we still have a comment in the intro implying the EU was founded in 1957 with the EC, rather than 1951 with the coal and steel union. This seems to be incorrect. However, I was listening to a discussion about the Marshall Plan yesterday. This was an American plan to integrate Europe, and it was being argued that it succeeded.Wiki says The Marshall Plan has also long been seen as one of the first elements of European integration, as it erased tariff trade barriers and set up institutions to coordinate the economy on a continental level. So maybe the EU traces its origins to this? Sandpiper ( talk) 08:14, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
In 2007 the EU/EC officially celebrated its 50th anniversary/birthday. 2007 minus 50 equals 1957 ! There is no need to introduce an individual point of view to the intro. Every historic detail is elaborated in the History section. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Did it? I saw a EU page saying it was celebrating the 50th anniversary of the thing which happened 50 years before, ie the 50th birthday of the EC. I also saw a EU page stating it traced its origins to the coal and steel agreement. Similarly, one day we may celebrate the 50th birthday of the EU, which this article quite plainly states began in 1993. This article could claim correctly that the EC was founded in 1957, but this article gives the incorrect impression that this was the earliest predecessor of the EU, and it was not. The programme about the marshall plan included someone asking people what it was, and they didn't know. Happily I do know what it was, but can't say I would know enough to definitively say it was the direct point of inception of the EU or not. To say there was a spirit of cooperation and removal of barriers within europe is to miss the point that this was a precondition of receiving aid under the plan. Sandpiper ( talk) 21:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I do not think that all of the edits made to the SM section is fact. A single POV source cannot be cited as proof. I do not want to get into a deep policital debate so... I reverted. -- Triwbe ( talk) 15:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
A BBC poll [37] including the EU as a 'country' entity among others. Note that this reference does not advocate the opinion that the European Union IS a country. Lear 21 ( talk) 18:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I see they chose to include britain france and Germany, but not other EU countries. One might surmise the choice was those places of interest to mainly british listeners. The EU is of great interest to some britains who nonetheless see no future for it as a country. Sandpiper ( talk) 23:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The main reason is to demonstrate that neither Opec, UN, Nafta, Uefa, African Union are integrated in these lists. Obviously the EU, within a global perception, is seen as a significant single entity and actor. Lear 21 ( talk) 13:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I think if the poll had been taken by a broadcaster from a member country of the African union, it well might have listed AU views and not mentioned EU ones. This is just a question of what I can see from where I stand. 01:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
GDP IMF
was invoked but never defined (see the
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Zdravíčko, Vítame Vás na tejto stránke plnej zábavy, prajeme Vám peknú nudu
A very high profile Wiki Editor is stating that this is the case:
Are you seriously trying to suggest that the EU is not an NGO? ... If you consider me throwing my political science and international relations degrees at you to be derogatory, then I have to say that I am sorry you feel that way. I am not a potted plant; I know the policies of which I speak, ... - Arcayne (cast a spell) 09:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm just public editor and believe that this is clearly not true, and i said so (although the original remark was not directed to me and that editor accepted it, "If you are so hung up on the EU as being an NGO, then by all means") , but i just want to make sure that there is'nt a grey area or that the article here needs to be corrected to state EU=NGO. I'll ask in [[NGO] as well in case nobody sees this here. Thanks for any guidance on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]) 20:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I did. I just want to make sure I'm write on this. It's alway's safer to check with the experts when a expert states a fact so confidently.
75.58.54.151 (
talk)
21:14, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
When I dropped him a note it looked like his page said he had multiple advanced degrees in the area and that he worked in "emergency management" so he probably both works for a government and with NGO's - so now I'm thinking he's gotta be right. Here's what I saw in wiki for both topics:
- "EU operation is a hybrid of intergovernmentalism and supranationalism. ... able to make decisions without the agreement of members. Important institutions and bodies of the EU include the European Commission, the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union, the European Council, the European Court of Justice and the European Central Bank. EU citizens elect the Parliament every five years."
- "A non-governmental organization (NGO) is a legally constituted organization created by private persons or organizations with no participation or representation of any government. ... the NGO maintains its non-governmental status insofar as it excludes government representatives from membership in the organization."
But Wiki is wrong all the time, it's kinda the point of this place in some ways, so I guess one of the entrys might need to be fixed. 75.58.54.151 ( talk) 21:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
No, its an IGO - my error. Your tax dollars hard at work. ;) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- the EU is not a single nation, nor is the UN or UAE. They are actually something called NGO's, or non-governmental organizations. ... we do not link flags to NGO's. - Arcayne
I've marked this as resolved. 75.57.165.180 ( talk) 13:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
In the governance section there is another misleading statement. It suggests that there are 3 alternative legislative routes. There are 3 MAIN legislative routes under Community. I believe there are around 22 different legislative routes in total. The legislation section is a little better on the distinction. Perhaps an insertion of the word "main" is needed? Lwxrm ( talk) 15:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I agree it should read 'main'. I also think this is a case where someone could have been bold enough to just stick it in (with an appropriate edit comment), and only bother arguing about it if someone objected. The existing source for that section already says there are 3 main methods, though it does not explain others.
There is a more difficult issue here which I did bring up once before. At present the method of legislation is being explained in two different sections. This is really no good, and it will have to go into one or the other. I think my suggestion before was that the two sections, legislation and governance should be reorganised. I also think the politics section is the odd man out. I would favour combining the remainder into one new section generally about structures and processes, possibly still called governance. Then have a main section politics by itself. I think this topic is probably big enough to stand by itself, though it is still related to the others, at least as currently written. The current politics section naturally divides into two, one still about procedures, and the other about actual political discussions. There is curently no mention of actual politics within the EU institutions, eg political groups within the parliament.
Perhaps the current first para of politics would serve as a new intro to a revised governance section, explaining the bit about pillars, SN, IG and areas of competence. Then the sections on commission, parliament and council, then types of legislation and how it is enacted, then courts to argue about it, and if still in here, finally politics to say whats currently cooking. Or politics as a new second main section. It is potentially controversial, but I feel debate over the aims of the EU is one of our weaker elements. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
1)The first sentence is not accurate. The EU was established as a customs union and not an economic union. Given the limited fiscal controls the EU possess and the lack of a full fledged currency it has not achieved, even now, the status of an economic union. I perceive this a major mistake 2)The free movement of capital is ALSO extended to non-Member States ie third countries. Not such a major thing but important to me. 3)There is a suggestion that the FMOGs can only be derogated from on the grounds of public health concerns. This is not true, either from the position of the Treaty itself or the more general "overriding" interests jurisprudence. Also "exceptions" are only mentioned for FMOG and not for the other factors. The claim that, like services, national rules still vary in some cases is misleading. National law varies in all freedoms, to a degree. 4)The use of the word "produce" in FMOG part is also misleading. A quibble perhaps :P 5)The main section is "economic policy". The use of the term citizen in free movement of persons part is not fully rational. The ability to study, "live", and retire are matters of economic policy? Or social policy? Or a little bit of both? Citizenship involves political and social rights well beyond economic policy...Just another thought. I know this is one of many "new" posts by me, and i just wanted to check people don't mind me pointing out these things? My legal education is grounded in the EU and so I tend to notice the detail. I am just trying to help :) Lwxrm ( talk) 14:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Considering the above I created a reworded, slightly rejigged, version of the single market section. The four freedoms is one of (if not the most) important element of the EU. The old section was extremely light on detail and plainly wrong in some of its statements. Providing nobody opposes it, I will edit it into the main article.
The EU was originally created as a customs union. The oldest and largest constituent organisation, the European Community, was founded as the European Economic Community. The creating and maintaining the EU's single market has been a prominent goal of the Community since its inception in 1957. It seeks to guarantee freedom of the four factors of production within the internal market. These relate to ensuring the free movement of goods, services and establishment and capital around the EU's internal market as well as the flow of persons within the area. [1]
The principle of free movement of goods ensures ensures goods can be taken anywhere within the whole market without being subject to barriers or obstacles. This freedom has both an internal and external dimension. Internally, goods must not be subjected to customs dutes, discriminatory taxes or measures restricting import quantities. Externally, goods entering the internal market will be granted freedom after paying the Common Customs Tariff.
The free movement of capital is intended to permit movement of investments such as property purchases and buying of shares between countries. [2] Until the drive towards Economic and Monetary Union the development of the capital provisions had been slow. Post-Maastricht there has been a rapidly developing corpus of ECJ judgments regarding this initially neglected freedom. The free movement of capital is unique insofar as that it is granted equally to non-member countries.
The free movement of persons means citizens can move freely between member states to live, work, study or retire in another country. Traditionally the economically active were granted a much greater level of freedom. This required the lowering of administrative formalities and recognition of professional qualifications of other states. [3] The extension to the non-econmically active was first recognised in 1999 when the concept of Community Citizenship was introduced to the EU. In addition to extending the scope of the free movement of persons, it also grants certain social and political rights to the citizens of the EU.
The free movement of services and establishment allows self-employed persons to move between member states in order to provide services on a temporary or permanent basis. Services account for between sixty and seventy percent of GDP, although legislation permitting free movement is not as established as in other sectors. This is addressed by the recently passed Directive on services in the internal market which aims to liberalise this area of the market. [4] According to the Treaty the provison of services is a residual freedom that only applies if no other freedom is being exercised.
The freedoms are not absolute in nature. Member states may interfere with their exercise on the specific grounds laid down in the Treaty, or can rely on the case law of the European Courts for more general justifications. For example, the Treaty allows member states to restrict movements that would pose a real threat to public policy or public security. In the absence of Community legislation it is for the member states to decide the scope of the exceptions. The European Courts will arbitrate as to whether the actions of the member state are proportionate and in conformity with Community law. Lwxrm ( talk) 14:22, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The free movement of persons means bla bla bla...
The free movement of services and establishment allows bla bla bla...
Or maybe that wouldn't look so good. I dunno. -- Simonski ( talk) 17:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, here we may be running into the same difficulty as whether institutions of the EU were institutions or 'institutions'. There is a copy of the original treaty (not the amended version as used generally by the EU website?) at [3].
Article 1 says: "By the present Treaty, the HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES establish among themselves a EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY." So in the sense that they said they were, they did create an economic union. It goes on to say:
Article 2 It shall be the aim of the Community, by establishing a Common Market and progressively approximating the economic policies of Member States, to promote throughout the Community a harmonious development of economic activities, a continuous and balanced expansion, an increased stability, an accelerated raising of the standard of living and closer relations between its Member States.
Article 3 For the purposes set out in the preceding Article, the activities of the Community shall include, under the conditions and with the timing provided for in this Treaty: (a) the elimination, as between Member States, of customs duties and of quantitative restrictions in regard to the importation and exportation of goods, as well as of all other measures with equivalent effect;
(b) the establishment of a common customs tariff and a common commercial policy towards third countries;
(c) the abolition, as between Member States, of the obstacles to the free movement of persons, services and capital;
(d) the inauguration of a common agricultural policy;
(e) the inauguration of a common transport policy;
(f) the establishment of a system ensuring that competition shall not be distorted in the Common Market;
(g) the application of procedures which shall make it possible to co-ordinate the economic policies of Member States and to remedy disequilibria in their balances of payments;
(h) the approximation of their respective municipal law to the extent necessary for the functioning of the Common Market;
(i) the creation of a European Social Fund in order to improve the possibilities of employment for workers and to contribute to the raising of their standard of living;
(j) the establishment of a European Investment Bank intended to facilitate the economic expansion of the Community through the creation of new resources; and
(k) the association of overseas countries and territories with the Community with a view to increasing trade and to pursuing jointly their effort towards economic and social development.
I don't have time to read the whole thing now, but it appears in article 3 to make a list of items with equal weight which would constitute a common market, not simply a customs union. It then goes on to create a timetable for these things. Admittedly some happen sooner than others, but none happen at once. You can therefore only say the document creates whatever is its final goal, which seems to be a common market. Sandpiper ( talk) 10:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Which is why i suggested the sentence should read that the EC was based on a customs union, with the aim of creating an internal market. Within the single market section of economic policy that seems rational, no? Especially considering the Treaty says it was to be based on a customs union... I did not mean to suggest that the forming of the EC was "completed" by the Treaty of Rome. Re-reading the original "swapping" of economic union with customs union I agree this is not the best phrase to use. 137.222.85.74 ( talk) 16:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I have inserted more or less your proposed version into the article. Please have a look through. I revised the start hopefully to take account of our discussion. I think the new stuff all seems usefull, and this is a fundamental and important part of the EU. I am a little bothered that the section has roughly doubled in size, and the article is long. But on the whole I thing other sections are probably less important so we ought to be looking for cuts there rather than here. Sandpiper ( talk) 21:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The section has become to long. It should be trimmed by at least 2 paragraphs. When I look at the last para, it becomes clear that highly specific information has been introduced. That is too much. Lear 21 ( talk) 10:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I took out the following ref from the regional development section:
There are substantial economical disparities across the EU. Even corrected for purchasing power, the difference between the richest and poorest regions (NUT-2 and NUT-3 of the Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics) is about a factor of ten. On the high end Frankfurt has €68,751 PPP per capita, Paris €67,980, [5]
[4] the link doesn't work for me, and I don't really know what it is supposed to be. There is still another ref quoting some of the figures, but I'm not sure if it has all of them. Anyone? Sandpiper ( talk) 18:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I see we have had reversions today from three anon IP addresses all belonging to HanseNet Telekommunikation GmbH [5] [6] [7]. I see that there was another yesterday amongst the multiple reversions by Lear [8]. Sandpiper ( talk) 21:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
This is not OR.This is an editorial decision, everyone agrees that the inner workings of the EU are very convolueted, a result of endless compromises.An intro must be simple,this is editorial etiquet,in quantum physics we have"In physics, quantum mechanics is the study of the relationship between energy quanta (radiation) and matter,in particular that between valence shell electrons and photons.",this is quite hem according to my standards on the issue, but i understand that theirs no point about talking about hilbert spaces,eigenvalues,operators,partial differential equations,particul-wave duality in the introduction.The intro is,oversimplifying for editorial reasons.For the same reason,it's bad etiquet not to simplify the description.The other "professional" encyclopedias know this very whell,that's why they put theirs simplified explanation in ther intros,they know what they are doing,it's not out of incompetence.The intro manages to be inferior by trying to be fuller.
Some reminders for however answers.This is an editorial decision,not OR,in the same way that Q.P. intro is an editorial decision,not OR,strictly speaking QP intro is shit.Example "european economy" or "european economic policy".I remind you,that in a confederation the states are considered independent,it's a special case of a international organization,in the EU ther is a common foreign affairs and common security policy...... the decisions just have to be taken by unanimity(that's why you rarely hear of them but they exist).The EU has no "army",yes,but each country has it's won "militia",to use familiar terminologies with some editors.If i'm not mistaken,if the EU "decides" to take a military action (by unanimity :)),the whay i understand it is that afterwards it's binding on the members.The european council is the upper house of the european legislature ,not a forum of european ministers,a feature directly copied from the german federal system(= bundesrat),yes in germany,the peopol governing the landers and the peopol voting in the federal upper house are ....... the same.I'm saying this because many consider that because mister brown or merkel or sarkozy,in real term vote in the european council,that it doen't qualify as a federal structure,but as an international organization,in that sence the bundesrat is a "international organizations" travesty inside the federal system of Germany.At my knowledge this is unique in the hol word.-- 88.82.47.38 ( talk) 22:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to show that "loose confederation" it's not a bad simplification.After you read the article of Bundesrat of Germany,do you classify the council as an intergovernmental body,or a federal one?the bundesrat is the almost exact duplicate of the council,is the bundesrat a intergovernmental body?-- 88.82.47.38 ( talk) 00:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Do not get me wrong, I do believe the term "confederation" is quite an accurate description of what the EU currently is. But this view does not seem to be shared by most of the literature on the EU. As far as I know, most scholars argue that the EU is only one of its kind because of how it combines intergovernmental and supranational elements. Although opinions range from "just another IGO" to a new federation in a period of consolidation, this appears to be the most widespread view in the literature I know. 88.82.47.38, could you please cite any influential sources defining the EU as a confederation? Without them, this discussion somewhat lacks substance. Andrzej Kmicic ( talk) 03:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Keep in mind that the introduction is not the place to elaborate the question "how the EU institutional body is working" while using "meta-political theory" definitions and further explain them. The introduction gives an overview to the article and includes the most significant activities of the EU. That is already the case. The current version and its content is stable, readable and sufficiently comprehensive. "Things should be simple but not simpler" - The opposite is true as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.101.141 ( talk) 21:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm assuming that you ignored the separation below.Intergouvermentalism is just a dessision-making method,it doesn't, tell anything about how strong the union is.The current proposal,and current wording just propagates the misunderstanding.The example with Germany shows that intergouvermenatalim is not mutually exclusive with federalism.The current "bug" with the intergouvermental council voting legislation,will very probably survive well after federalization of the EU.So either you add the explanation on the intergouvermental method of desision making,either you avoid the issue by removing it al togather.It is a fact that peopol doing the amalgam intergouvermental=international organization like UN and supranational=country.How are you going to account for that in the intro and staying simple at the same time?-- 88.82.32.84 ( talk) 16:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I've had a look at the intro. I think the current first para needs breaking to remove the history stuff into a separate para. The remaining stuff defining the EU should make the first para by itself. I think we will continue arguing about exactly how to word it, but I'm going to be bold and separate off the history para right now. The intergovernmental bit seems to have been shoved to the end of the para where it doesn't really make sense. I shall rescue it from there and insert Arnoutfs proposal (more or less, for the time being, which I think is closest to the current. We can then argue about exactly how to phrase the second sentence (the first seems reasonably accepted). Sandpiper ( talk) 11:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Part of my proposal is too remove the other technical details from the intro,(fisheries,agriculture...).Firstly i recently edited the intergouvermental article,so don't look there for a neutral opinion.A couldn't find source,but the way i understand it is that intergouvermental is not meant to mean unanimity among the governments,just that the governments are discussing among them selves,from there you can have votes ,with some ponderations,vetoes for all or just for some.For example the UN security council is considered intergouvermental.The example of Germany, show that intergouvemental elements inside a federal state is not a travesty(for those protesting,yes i saw the term used that way),thus intregouvermentalism is not mutually exclusive with federalism.I'm saying this because apparently everybody has concluded that the two are mutually exclusive and only pure supranationalism can be used in a federal state or a confederation.What i whant to say is that the reason that you(the editors) are so opposed to "confederation" is that you are ,your selves misinformed about what intergouvermentalism is about, intergouvermentalism is just a way of decision making,it doesn't determines by it self how strong a union is.The current wording just propagates this belief.-- 88.82.32.84 ( talk) 13:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Have a look at this article.Strickly speaking other organizations have supranational and intergouvermental aspects,so saying that the EU has that doesn't explain much,it obscures more then anything.Peopol(including you), have an intuitive inderstanding that supranationalism=federation while intergouvermentalism=international organization.I argue that peopol think they know what intergouvermentalism is about,so they will not investigate further, my sets of examples show that you find intergouvermental elements inside federations.Just an example with russia,there are over 100 subunits in the federation,for beter coordination they have inplemented regional organizations(like in international organizations),the seats in the federal concil was appointed by the federated units,and could be recould at any time(i coul this intergouvermental element,Puting changed the constitution since then).For the EU getting federalized,i was making a parallel with germany(it started as a confederetion of independent states) in that the way legislation is made,will probably survive a federalization,i was arguing that the intergouvermental aspect of the EU,on it's won, doesn't give any significant information on the level of integration.Summary:
Ok what the hell, can we have some agreement here before people start carrying out these changes. The introduction is now absolutely horrible. That sentence about 'the phrase European Union' really has to go in my opinion, it doesn't read well at all. Can we go back to what it was beforehand and then come to some sort of agreement? In the process we can pretty much now just ignore as irrelevant discussion on the 'confederation' idea and concentrate on how we can supposedly improve an arguably already fine intro? The federation discussion is boring now and not the sort of thing we should be discussing here. The fact is there is no agreement between the member states on the issue, no agreement between academics, no agreement between us mere wikipedia editors, so there is NO POINT in trying to deal with the issue. Contrary to what is claimed, in my opinion anybody who tries to come up with some minority held view on what the EU is can either be accused of coming out with Original Research or harbouring a non-NPOV view (and that is mainly aimed at 88). Can we get back to business please? -- Simonski ( talk) 14:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Simonski... "the phrase..." is in my opinion awkward. Let's review the intro version of 31-jan midnight (arbitrary choice)
Noticing that this discussion has focussed on the problems with the first line in that version; now look at the most recent version.
If I compare these versions I notice the main differences are: (1) The history bit is moved to the end. (2) The explanation of supranational and intragovernmental is moved to the back of the regulations section, making the opening sentence shorter and (3)The line "The phrase European Union applies at the same time to the area and community and to its institutions." was added. I hope you guys agree with these observations. I will continue with my opinion.
If you guys do not mind, I would like to go back to the last sentence of the first paragraph. I still think we should replace "It has both supranational features, being able to make directives which are binding to its members, as well as intergovernmental features, as it depends on agreement between the different members" by "The EU's functioning partially depends on agreement between members, an intergovernmental feature it shares with most international organizations. The European Union also has supranational bodies, able to make decisions binding to member states." Here are the main advantages: First, the old version says the EU "depends on agreement between the different members", which is not always true. ECJ does not care about agreements between states, does it? Second, the new version gives a specific example of intergovernmentalism (IGOs) and also implicitly refers to the EU as an international organization, which is basically the legal status of the EU in the international law and a frequent description in the literature. Third, some readers might mistake "directives" in the old version for legislative directives. Well, it is not a big deal either way, but I think the proposed version is slightly better. Andrzej Kmicic ( talk) 16:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I slightly reorganized the order of sentences in the lead. [9] Now, the first paragraph sums up what the EU is (e.g. single market, common policies), the second paragraph is devoted to the EU's institutions and governance, and the third paragraph outlines the history. Basically, this structure existed before, but few sentences seemed to be out of this order. I hope you will like this change. Andrzej Kmicic ( talk) 18:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to check, do we have a consensus here then on the current state of the intro? It would be handy to have one before he who violates his edit block returns and just reverts whatever changes have been made (which of course will just lead to another edit ban anyway). I for one can live with the current version, but wouldn't add anything to it. Anybody else have any major problem here? -- Simonski ( talk) 11:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I've stuck it in, though i've also changed "in a way that will" simply to "to" as the complexity was bugging me. Sandpiper —Preceding comment was added at 07:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)--Autosigned by SineBot--)
Now, I do also have a problem with the line The EU's functioning partially depends on agreement between members, where I have similar difficulties with the word 'partially' as I did with 'extensive' above. In this case I would be inclined to come down of the opposite side, not 'partially', but 'largely'. I'm not quite sure where you place 'qualified majority voting' with regard to requiring agreement, but I would say it was still necessary to obtain agreement. An element of supranationalism does creep in, just not enough to describe the remaining need for agreement as 'partial'. Ive changed it to 'Some areas of the EUs functioning depend..' Sandpiper
I read through again and was struck by this claim that the EU has 'supranational bodies'. I'm not sure I could name them (plural), especially since they are distinguished by the way it is phrased from those areas of the EU which work intergovernmentally. Would anyone care to suggest a list to justify this statement? (not for inclusion, just to satisfy me it is factual).
Another point, I quite like the lead, but I am bothered a reviewer might come along and start arguing why it does not accurately summarise the article. Now, I think it may well summarise the important points of the EU, but that is completely different. I support a lead which does its job, not one which slavishly mirrors the article, but others may not. In particular I noted the mention of the agriculture and fisheries policies right at the top. This is entirely correct given their historical importance, share of budget and continuing source of wrangling, but you would never know it from the rest of the article.
I also rephrased the sentence of EU statistics to be consistent with the rest of that paragraph, talking about things from the perspective of members. Sandpiper ( talk) 08:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
If you 'ignore the intergovernmental roadblock of the council', then any think tank or discussion group which proposes changes to the law but has no power to impose them is also a supranational organisation. I think the element of being able to carry out the change despite the protest of a government is the heart of the thing.
Arnoutf, the difficulty is that while this is not a specialist international law analysis, it does need to reflect any such debate when stating bald conclusions. If the specialist debate says this is a tricky issue, then we can't simply come down on one side. We already have the article Supranationalism#Supranationalism in the European Union, and it says what I have just reported. It is at least very close to contradicting this current statement here. One of them is plainly wrong.
As to editing, there are things on this page which I hesitate before changing which I would change as a matter of course on any ordinary page. This page is frozen in glue and could do with some more intervention from time to time. As a matter of course, anyone overviewing any page should look at any edit with a presumption that it improves the page unless it clearly does not. Similarly, even where some very odd edits sometimes appear, it is important to try to figure what the person meant by them, and whether they might have a point, even if not as quite currently expressed. And perhaps finally, it is important to try to read a page as a newcomer would with no knowledge of the subject or any massive debates which might have happened about one phrase, and try to figure if they really make sense. Sandpiper ( talk) 11:07, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that at the moment this discussion has convinced me that the best way to phrase the two sentences would be to replace 'some areas of Eu functioning depend on agreement' with 'most areas...', and then leave the second sentence as was 'However...'. This would be the correct summarisation, mostly by agreement, but some areas supranationally? Sandpiper ( talk) 11:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh good lord, I lose the internet for a few days and totally loose track of what is going on here. From what I gather skimming through maybe we should say that decisions require agreement between member states together with the supranational bodies (majority in Council and Parliament)?- J Logan t: 13:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so just to try and get some consensus here on the intro to try and stabilise it (because I still suspect that a certain somebody is going to come back in a weeks time and try and revert it, so we would need to have a consensus in place to make it easier to ignore such action).. Do you have a problem with the following sentence in the introduction to the EU page: "However, it [the EU] also has supranational bodies, able to make decisions binding to member states" (please keep your explanations short if possible!) -- Simonski ( talk) 15:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
_____________________________________________________
Comments on the Above
To get in line with many GA status layouts and almost all FA articles some adjustments are needed. 1. The single sentence at the beginning has to be merged into a paragraph. An article as comprehensive and an issue as broad as the European Union can´t be summarized in one sentence. Therefore all paragraphs should at least aim to appear of equal importance and size. 2.There are probably some fishermen editors out there who are disappointed, but I think the mentioning of the fishery policies are not significant enough for the intro, sorry. 3. Quote: "Much of the EU's functioning depends on agreement between members, an intergovernmental feature it shares with most international organisations. However, it also has supranational bodies, able to make decisions binding upon member states." This phrase contains weasel words (much) and sounds not encyclopeadic at all. It has to be rephrased. I took the freedom to tackle the most pressing problems on the road to FA... Lear 21 ( talk) 08:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
1.Please see [10] and please respect how introductions are organized in Wikipedia. My personal view also tells me that the 2. Para appears to bulky while the 1.sentence looks lonely. Lear 21 ( talk) 08:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the most recent changes (at the time of typing), I would revert but I'm interested to hear what everybody else thinks. I still don't think its a good idea to have that GDP line in the first paragraph, I don't see why that is more relevant than the other stuff below it (indeed arguably its less relevant). However I'm anticipating that if anybody else does have a problem with Lear's changes, it would be over the intergovernmental/supranational sentence.. wasn't there a massive discussion leading up to that new consensus? Lear honestly it'd be far more helpful if you actually discussed your changes before making them, particularly given the importance of the introduction to the page. -- Simonski ( talk) 14:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The EU is seen worldwide primarily as a unified economic entity. There seems nothing wrong to put the GDP data in the first paragraph. The German [11] & the French article [12] prioritize this indicator very high. Right now there is certainly some room within the first para to amend the intergovernmental/supranational issue. Personally, I would prefer that every specialized explanation how the EU works should go in to the respective sections. The Governance section for instance needs a lot of work. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, if you don't like the revised intro I would suggest you read the debate we had about it, and comment here why you object to the arguments made for changing it. As to your current comments:
As far as I am concerned, an introduction should contain the very most important informtion about the subject. You reinserted the words supranational and intergovernmenmtal into the top of the article. My personal objection to inserting these words as you have and as they were used before, is that they are incomprehensible to a non specialist reader without further explanation. Thus we added some explanation. We also moved them down the intro, because frankly they are not the most important thing about the EU. What it does is more important than how it does it. Arguably, explaining this aspect of the EU could easily be relegated from the intro entirely, as a legal trechnicality, but it makes a lot more sense when placed in a paragraph together with the institutions which are being described. An introduction needs to be sensibly organised so it does not flit about from one thing, away and then back, but instead the information must be organised logically. This applies to the body of the article too, of course.
The GDP of the member states is almost irrelevant to the functioning of the EU, and is also already quoted in the infobox just right of the text. Arguably it need not be mentioned in the intro at all. The single market and other EU institutions clearly are more important than the GDP so should be mentioned first, and anyway need to be explained somewhat before mentioning the GDP, which is really only usefull to give an idea of the scale of this undertaking. Perhaps we need to stress that the EU is not a country, does not have its own economy, and thus the priorities for writing this article are almost the opposite of those you suggest relevant for writing about countries. At one and the same time you are seeking to say the most important thing about the EU is that it is a supranational and international organisation, yet then you abandon explaining the nature of this institution and instead discuss it as if was just another country.
I entirely disagree that one sentence can not sum up the EU, and think that a one line definition is a very good way to begin an article. As to arrangement of introductions generally, I'm afraid the link you gave is not to any page recommending style for writing intros. Please can you provide a better link? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandpiper ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Preliminary statement of CIA WFB: [15] and Intergovernmental vs Supranational at Eurojargon [16] Lear 21 ( talk) 09:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The intergovernmental vs supranational debate is of no relevance for further elaboration in the introduction. It is clear that both dimensions exist. The neutral phrase representing this reality is now included in the first para. This article is furthermore read around the world. The EU is primarily seen as major economic player, chief global regulator in terms of industrial standards and heavy weight in WTO talks. This status derives from it´s combined economic output- GDP. Nothing wrong to include this status in the first para. The French and the German version (yes it is only written and not in numbers) have included this fact at the top of their introduction. Lear 21 ( talk) 10:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
There should be no problem to reintroduce the term sui generis instead of "without historical precedent". The term sui generis has been used for a very long time on this article before and is quite accurate. Plus: The Swedish article [17] has already successfully adapted the layout of this article and interpreted the EU in even broader dimensions. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, this is clearly developing into two issues
- I would say for 1) the previous description (which I'll call the Sandpiper version) was actually fine and with a slight tweaking could do the job and 2) the opening paragraph should not provide such an economic statistic. Given your normal taste for following the structure of country pages Lear, I'm surprised you'd want to have it there. -- Simonski ( talk) 14:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
One thing concerning FA review: These editors never judge the content! They control grammar and some rules enacted by Wikipedia. When it comes to issue like the EU, which is a highly contemporary, permanent evolving content it is no wonder that they have absolutely no opinion. They just don´t know what, where or how the EU is (even less like all the contributing experts ;) ). I have added the preliminary statement of CIA WFB: [18], which is an external non-European-source, and an internal EU-opinion-source [19] to verify the supranational-intergovernmental balance. This is without a doubt the accurate description of the reality. You should bring credible sources to continue claiming that: "Much of the EU's functioning depends on agreement between members". You won´t find them, because its wrong. Please stop citing consensus, which led to this biased statement. And Yes! still, the French and the German version have included the fact of the GDP at the top of their introduction. One last remark: The intro content in total hasn´t changed. The amended supranational-intergovernmental balance (that was needed) and the GDP went up to fill in the first paragraph. Nothing else of importance happened. It now looks again like an organized introduction. Lear 21 ( talk) 15:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Within the Community pillar both elements are present. Comitology, and the recognition of the European Council means that both the high level policy decisions and the minutae detail of technical legislation are affected by intergovernmental considerations. Equally the activist role of the ECJ, the growing strength of Parliament and the move towards QMV shows supranational tendencies. The bitter fights between the Commission and Council over environmental crime, for example, or the Pupino judgment shows that supranationalism in fields of third pillar should not be ignored. Saying that the EU contains both intergov and suprana qualities should be sufficient. To argue it exhibits one more than the other is more contentious and debatable Lwxrm ( talk) 16:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
@Simonclamb/Lwxrm: I have never written or signalized that anything else than that BOTH dimensions exist and should be mentioned equally. The last version was rather neutral on that point @Simonclamb: Concering the GDP, you start arguing for micro-inches, like a lawyer, haha. The third sentence of the French article is about the GDP. The same is true for the new proposal here at the English version. Again, the EU has become a major economic factor in the globalized world [20], [21] (you only need to scan the captions). This is due to its combined economic output. To mention this is rather natural and explains the EU in the same manner like all other sentences in the introduction. Lear 21 ( talk) 16:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I said "primarily" and "globally seen" (Non-EU-Member-perspective) as economic. This is not true for the internal (EU-member) perspective (us). Both perspectives need to be addressed in this article. Lear 21 ( talk) 17:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Please re-read 1. It said: "An article as comprehensive and an issue as broad as the European Union can´t be summarized in one sentence." It would pretend that this was possible. It is wrong and unprecedented in high quality articles within Wikipedia. Therefore every paragraph should at least aim to appear of equal size. Plus: It looks better. / CIA was mentioned to cite intergov/supranat balance. / And yes, still, the EU has become a major economic influence in the globalized world and is known for it (see the refs). This significant detail can and should be mentioned early in the introduction. This has already been done in 2 other major language Wikipedia articles. Nothing with it to do it here. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Alright, so like I said, we have to somehow agree on the following
From what I see, there is a general preference for the intergovernmental/supranational aspects just to be mentioned objectively, in other words without a requirement to describe whether 'much of' the EU's functioning is supranational or intergovernmental. In practice, both aspects cross-fertilise in the existing pillar scheme anyway, so I dont think either side really wins out (I have to say that I read an article agreeing exactly with what Lwxrm said, in the period between the previous debate, which I'll call the Sandpiper intro debate and now, which can be called the Lear debate).
Therefore, as far as 1) goes, can we just say something like "The European Union (EU) is a political and economic community of twenty-seven member states, located primarily in Europe, possessing both intergovernmental and supranational features". Granted that may not be the best way of putting it but can we please have something like that as the opening sentence?
As far as number 2 goes, I just really don't think the GDP should be at the start, I think its position at the end of the second paragraph does not do it any injustice, it is still very clear for all to see. I don't think I'm afraid I'll be able to be convinced here so the best we're looking at it is having some sort of compromise where the French model is followed with the GDP sentence being at the top of the second para, but I doubt that this will appeal to others. As always, Consensus-1 can apply, which is worth bearing in mind for both sides. -- Simonski ( talk) 11:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree a more neutral mention of supranatio/intergovern is best. I also agree GDP is important, but not important enough to be dominant in the intro Lwxrm ( talk) 11:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I think I should interject here that I find two possibilities acceptable. Either not mentioning the words supranational and intergovernmental at all, or mentioning together with an explanation of their meaning. I do not consider it at all acceptable just to drop them into the intro without explanation, because they will not be understood. This was the reason for expanding their mention in the first place. Also, they are much better placed further down the intro, for exactly the same reason that the economic data is aonly acceptable further down. This is not the core summary information about the EU. Think about it, it just isn't. A summary is the most important things. Neither of these really qualifies. Frankly, they are both footnotes! Sandpiper ( talk) 12:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, I repeat for the third time of asking, do you agree that the example you cited of the CIA page suggests we should not mention the economy at all in the introduction, and should mention it only once in the article anywhere? Sandpiper ( talk) 13:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, the first sentence should stand alone as a definition of what the article is about, in a paragraph by itself. It should not mention SN, IG or the economy which are not the most important issues in any way. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
parts(Rome-EEC), and most recent, almost future developments (Lisbon) ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lear 21 ( talk • contribs) 15:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
IMHO, intergovernmentalism and supranationalism do not need explanations of those terms, they can click on the links to look into that and the article should speak for itself on detail. GDP should be mentioned as it reflects its importance and clout in the world - to change any misconceptions about its importance. Don't care much where it comes in though. Some history could be good but kept brief as it can easily get long winded with the different treaties - maybe just that it has its roots in the ECSC founded in 1952? History is a good context to start talking about something, the era of establishment -and age- reflects its nature and so on. On the established consensus, that should be stuck to till a new one is formed, all parties should refrain from amending the text without getting support here or we just decent into the edit wars which stop this page progressing.- J Logan t: 20:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
One NO GO has to be avoided, a single sentence in the lead [22].
Because of the already stated incorrect claims and insufficiencies, I put up the following proposal to amend the so called "consensus-version" :
As to what the guideline actually says about the intro:The appropriate lead length depends on the length of the article, but should be no longer than four paragraphs...The subject of the article should be mentioned in bold text (subject) at a natural place, preferably in the first sentence.....Normally, the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail and the qualifications and nuances that follow. If further introductory material is needed before the first section, this can be covered in subsequent paragraphs....Keep in mind that sometimes this is all that is read, so the most important information should be included.
Directly relevant to my own arguments, the longer guideline says: The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article. It is even more important here than for the rest of the article that the text be accessible. Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading the whole article. (See news style and summary style.)
So the intro must contain the essential points leaving out, eg, legalistic minutiae or economic statistics, which are not central to explaining what it is.
In general, specialized terminology should be avoided in an introduction. Where uncommon terms are essential to describing the subject, they should be placed in context, briefly defined, and linked. The subject should be placed in a context with which many readers could be expected to be familiar. For example, rather than giving the latitude and longitude of a town, it is better to state that it is the suburb of some city, or perhaps that it provides services for the farm country of xyz county. Readers should not be dropped into the middle of the subject from the first word; they should be eased into it.
So if we use SN, IG etc, we must briefly define them as well as link them.
An interesting footnote in the lead guideline says, For the planned Wikipedia 1.0 — a static version of Wikipedia distributed on CD, DVD, or paper — one recommendation, not currently implemented, is that the articles will consist of just the lead section of the web version. Summary style and news style can help create a concise intro that works as a stand-alone article.
So basically, does the intro contain those points most important to explain the EU, assuming nothing else will be read?
My own view on the reason for having a one sentence opening paragraph is that in effect the article becomes a threee-level definition. The single sentence as a simple definition. The intro as a whole as a very short summary of the most essential and informative information. The entire article for detail.
As to your suggestion. The opening sentence is fine: How the EU came by its name is not essential, nor is the name of the latest founding treaty. The treaty of Rome is at least as relevant, but nothing about how it came to exist is more important than what it is, and what it does. Whether it is supranational or intergovernmetal also tells the reader absolutely nothing about what it is or does. The words also break the guideline, because they are not explained. How big it is is arguably more relevant than the last lot, but remains minor information, less important than what the EU does or is, or how it works. Yor next para is the info which previously came immediately after the first sentence, because this is info which actually does describe the EU. Unfortunately you have hacked at it to remove some of the detail of what the EU does, thereby making it wholly worse. You have committed another sin, that of muddling up information, by dividing the historical information into two places, some in the first and some in the forth paragraph. The history section is the least essential and thus comes last, all together. Similarly, the consensus version places IG and SN together with the names of the institutions we are talking about, and adds the brief explanation of those terms as required by the guideline. Sandpiper ( talk) 14:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Preliminary conclusion: By scanning through the 7 major EU language-Wiki-articles some results can be stated: 1. The Maastricht treaty is high priority (@Arnoutf & others: It is not history it is reality) 2. supranational/intergovernmental balance incl. a sentence of the unique character is high priority 3. French/German article rank Economic status (GDP) at the top of the introduction. These 3 essentials should be in the first para as proposed.
Comment:A reader who approaches the introduction will most likely read all paragraphs. Because the crucial content as it was, is not changed, nobody can claim something went wrong, compared to the last version. Instead the intergov/supranat sentence has been corrected, decent paragraph layout is introduced, minor trimming (WTO & UN in brackets deleted) and even the Lisbon treaty sentence(FA -review complaints) has been facilitated. I personally have no problems to elaborate on intergov/supranat in order to explain what it means, but tend to keep the very short version as proposed. It can be concluded, that there are no other proposals made to solve the problems.By further scanning some suggestions, I´ll introduce now the proposed new version with some amendments. Further improvements to enhance the flow of reading can be made. Of course. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 10:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, you referenced the style guide on introductions (well, strictly you referenced the wrong section, but nevertheless). Your version does not correspond to that outlined in the style guide. Are you now saying the guide which you earlier insisted should be followed, should be ignored? Sandpiper ( talk) 10:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The latest new version has now four paragraphs almost equal in size and almost coherent in content. This is recommended and quite frankly, very obviously, an organized appearance. As long as there no other proposals, this is going to be the new version. Text flow can be improved though. Please do not reintroduce false claims and bad layout style to the introduction anymore, PLEASE! Lear 21 ( talk) 11:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC) Have to say that made me laugh, did the fuhrer of the third reich just decree it? I don't see any points raised here saying there is anything wrong with the current intro, whereas I for one have pointed out several problems with your proposal. I don't see why it needs to be changed from the consensus arrived at above. The points you have not addressed are:
In summary, you have mixed up the information and made it harder to understand. You seem determined to place SN, IG and the trade figures right at the very start. I think this is consistent with your past editing history, but baffles me. Why do you want to place this stuff right at the start, where it plainly does not belong? Why are you determined to insist it is a supranational organisation (see also your other proposed versions), when it plainly isn't? Sandpiper ( talk) 11:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I really agree with Sandpiper that the text gets twisted by Lears proposal. In my opinion the first paragraph there becomes the summary of the lead (i.e. the summary of the summary), I think that is just too much. A suggestion. Put history towards first section and merge economy back into second. It would look something like the following, although the explanation of the difficult words issue is not solved.
(Para 1) intro, treaties and history (Para 2) Economy, market and citizenship (Para 3) Institutions and international cooperation.
The European Union (EU) is a political and economic community of twenty-seven member states, located primarily in Europe. It was established under that name by the Maastricht Treaty in 1993. Predecessor entities of the EU trace its origins back to the Treaties of Paris signed in 1951 by six countries, and the Treaty of Rome in 1957. Since then the community has grown in size through the accession of new member states and has increased its powers by the addition of new policy areas to its remit. The Treaty of Lisbon signed in December 2007 is intended to replace the existing treaties and initiated a ratification process in 2008.
With almost 500 million citizens the EU member states are generating a combined estimated 30% share of the world's nominal gross domestic product (GDP) (US$16.6 trillion) in 2007.[2] The EU comprises a single market created by a system of laws which apply in all member states, guaranteeing the freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital.[3] Passport control between many members has been abolished under the Schengen Agreement.[4][5] Fifteen member states have adopted a common currency, the euro. The EU maintains common trade and agricultural policies, and a regional development policy. It has developed a role in foreign policy, and in justice and home affairs.
The EU is governed by supranational institutions and intergovernmental bodies. Important institutions and bodies of the EU include the European Commission, the Council of the European Union, the European Council, the European Court of Justice and the European Central Bank. A European Parliament is elected by EU citizens every five years. The EU represents its members in the World Trade Organization and attends at G8 summits and at the United Nations. Twenty-one EU countries are members of NATO.
Arnoutf (
talk)
12:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Since I have no preference for either the Arnoutf proposal or the current new 4-para version, the Arnoutf proposal is also possible. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the intro does not contain the number of members (27). I think this should be included; I would tend to put it in the first paragraph.
On a more general note, I think the first paragraph should include the information that identifies the subject, and the most salient information that distinguishes it from other entities and makes it important, while the remaining three paragraphs summarize the article, omitting things already included in the first paragraph. So, to identify the EU and distinguish it from other entities, I would move the first sentence of paragraph 2 (about size and importance) into paragraph 1.
I also notice that defence spending and military capabilities are not mentioned in the intro (or in the relevant section). Although defence is less important for the EU as an organization, I think we need something more to indicate the size and importance of the EU as a group of countries. In the debate about the EU being an organization rather than a country, we may have thrown the baby out with the bath water. -- Boson ( talk) 07:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the number of sections is currently bouncing about again, so I am not certain which your numbering refers to. It is a bit hard to assess anything on the statement 'a summary of....'. because your list itself is long enough to have taken up one paragraph of the four available for the intro. Thats about one sentence per section. Or, put another way, it is unrealistic to summarise any section properly, the best we can do is mention highlights. It is also the case that the sections in this article are not all of equal importance. Some should quite properly be completely ignored when summarising, to allow more room for the important points. If you add a sentence to the current intro, then one must also be removed. People here are not good at choosing stuff to leave out, by rights half this article ought to go because it is too long. I would suggest we delete the sports section, for starters. Sandpiper ( talk) 23:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I see an IP address has added the EU's Latin name to the infobox. I'm noting the edit because it might go unnoticed: I'm pretty sure that the consensus was not to include it, but I can't remember so I didn't revert. Should it be there? Rossenglish ( talk) 19:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Why are the outmoded dollars used for valuations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.202.134.184 ( talk) 06:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Euros surpassed the usd as the world's 'favourite' currency over a year ago.
"With more than €610 billion in circulation as of December 2006 (equivalent to US$802 billion at the exchange rates at the time), the euro is the currency with the highest combined value of cash in circulation in the world, having surpassed the U.S. dollar.[3]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro
I propose the euro become the new wikipedia currency standard, especially now that the usd is falling in value. Vlad Dracula ( talk) 07:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone replaced the oil pipelines image with one of a nuclear power station. I always though the pipeline picture was interesting, because it makes a ppoint about dependence of EU fuel supplies on external sources, particulalry russia. Thus I replaced it, but Lear took it out again with the comment "the Power plant image has changed because it is of higher relevance how the energy is generated inside the EU)". Now, I'm not convinced that nuclear is the method used to generate most power in europe. I think the image just comes across as a pretty image of a power station without making a useful contribution to the article. Comments? Sandpiper ( talk) 08:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
[23] 30% in the EU Lear 21 ( talk) 10:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
There are certainly several other sources of energy. But as long there are no other references proofing that one of these other sources are dominating in many EU countries we have no choice of keeping the Nuclear Power Image (incl. caption plus ref). I´m not arguing against other sources, instead I have argued to replace the oilpipeline map. By the way, in the Education/Research section there is an example of important other energy sources. That should complete the picture. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, I´m not arguing against other sources, instead I have argued to replace the oil because it is produced outside the EU. I transferred the map to the main article Energy policy of the European Union Lear 21 ( talk) 11:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I wonder, why the fiercest "The-EU-IS-ONLY-Like-THE-UN" advocates supporting an even more peripheral aspect. The Pipeline map included a caption with unreferenced claims and weasel words. Furthermore is Russia one of many suppliers of oil and gas. The main argument for the new image is still eminent, The energy is produced! and not imported within EU member states. That is of higher relevance. Following the other logic would start inserting a picture of Hollywood in the Culture section. Lear 21 ( talk) 15:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The FA review suggeted that G8 and NATO acronyms should on first instance have their full meaning written out. I have expande a couple of these, but really can't quite bring myself to do so for these two, because they just arent ever used in full. Perhaps others can chip in? Sandpiper ( talk) 15:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The largest city table has been tag as unsourced by an editor involved in many FA candidacies but not in this article. I tend to agree. I think the table is illustrative and not essential (but I know this is sensitive to some). If the table is deemed important a good reference has to be provided. If this is not done by Sunday, I will boldly assume nobody thinks the table should be in and I will throw it out. Arnoutf ( talk) 19:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
While talking about the largeswt cities table, I noticed that at least on my browser the heading line overlaps the start of the table, so you can't read it. I fixed this up by increasing the line height. Lear has reverted me on this twice, restoring the unreadable top line. I don't think the body needs taller columns, but I think the table is a lot better with taller columns than an illegible heading. Anyone who knows how to make just the top line taller, please have a go. Lear, in the meanwhile, please stop reinserting an illegible header. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I just noticed that the government of the EU is described in the infobox as sui generis supranationalism. On investigation i see this once said intergovernmentalism. This was changed by an anon to intergovernmental suprantionalism, and later to sui generis supranationalism by ssolbergj. I have to say I don't see any reason to believe the government is in fact sui generis supranationalism, which would appear to mean it is an innovative way of ceding control entirely to the EU. Even if we restrict ourselves to those areas of EU competence, this is far from the truth. My own reading would suggest that if only one adjective is to be picked, then it should be intergovernmentalism, rather then supranationalism. The reality seems to lie in the middle somewhere. Anyway, it seems to me this current statement is incorrect and we need to fix it. Suggestions? Sandpiper ( talk)
To me sui generis on its own is the best solution to prevent descending back into the inter/supra argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lwxrm ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear I appreciate the idea but I have to oppose this. I just think it looks a bit ugly and second of all, looking at both my Italian and UK passports, is clearly misleading. Neither of them (and they've both been issued recently) have the EU stars in the middle. And having seen friends' German and Polish passports I am almost certain that it is not the standard design. The standard design is instead clearly red background (about the only thing that is correct in your image), a line saying 'European Union', the name of the Member State, in the middle that countries' symbol, and then Passport/Reispass or whatever its called in German. -- Simonski ( talk) 10:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I´ll changed it. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
[25] There are others available, but the Lithuanian is the best image quality, I think. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The national emblem at the center is different in every country. At my screen the passport is burgundy. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Why was this cut? Any particular reason? Lwxrm ( talk) 19:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC) ?
It wasn't cut, the content is still there. It was reorganised as per outline posted under governance, in discussion with yourself, amongst others. You did not raise any objections. The initial reason was to rearrange the material so that all discussion of parliamentary procedure was in one place, as mentioned in that discussion. Sandpiper ( talk) 23:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed we have been arguing heavily the last few days, but have NOT BEEN SERIOUSLY ADDRESSING FA REVIEWER CONCERNS (yes I am shouting). I think that to have any chance at passing FA review we have to go back to the nominated version and seriously work to solve the issues raised. Future (non minor - ie spelling, and style type) changes that are not indicated in FA review should only be initiated after the review is concluded.
If editors think the version originally entered the FAR is not good enough yet (note though that a non-editor of this page nominated that version) I would strongly suggest to withdraw it from nomination as I think it is a waste of time of effort of everyone otherwise. I will revert it to the version of the FA nomination tomorrow unless you guys say it would be better to withdraw from the nomination procedure.
Arnoutf (
talk)
22:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The quality of the current article has achieved GA status and that is well deserved because of number of reasons. FA status on the other hand must fulfill the highest expectations and standards. Keep in mind that less than 00.1 % of all Wikipedia entries achieved this. I reckon that in many respects the EU article fulfills the criteria (ref, intro, layout, comprehensiveness, data). The major insufficiency is the quality of writing (I won´t be able to provide it either). It is the reason why I personally didn´t got involved in the process of FA nomination. I anticipated most of the concerns and will stay neutral during the procedure in the future. In my experience an FA candidacy needs motivated, capable editors to adapt to the demands. Nevertheless, the candidacy already brought some improvements and new external insights (not all of them useful, of course). So yes, I´m sympathetic to the candidacy, but won´t start whining in case of withdrawal or failure. The quality, size and importance (among the 200 most read articles out of 2 million) is already exceptional. With or without an official honor. Lear 21 ( talk) 09:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, before you resumed editing the page, the concerns of FA reviewers were about references and stylistic details. Recently, one poster expressed himself bemused by the current introduction, which is a mess compared to the previous version. Whatever faults that may have had, it is now much worse. There is only one person responsible for instigating these changes. Much of this would likely go away if the introduction is returned to its state pre your return. Why exactly do you wish to change it? You have never explained this. Sandpiper ( talk) 14:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
[26] Lear 21 ( talk) 15:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Has anybody ever read Encarta articles? Enyclopedia Britannica? Has anybody ever read newspaper articles, books? Several Hundreds Wikipedia GA / FA articles? NO? I recommend it! None of these texts starts with a single sentence! Sorry to mention it, but a decent paragraph structure, also supported by Wikipedia guidelines, is a must! The wording can be adapted. The lead should have 1. Location/community 2.Maastricht 3. intergov/supranat balance (I can live with a short & a long version) And Preferably 4. Economic status (mostly because of layout reasons) Lear 21 ( talk) 12:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Preliminary statement of CIA World Fact Book 1. sentence/ An external view: [27]
The evolution of the European Union (EU) from a regional economic agreement among six neighboring states in 1951 to today's supranational organization of 27 countries across the European continent stands as an unprecedented phenomenon in the annals of history.
Intergovernmental vs Supranational at Eurojargon/ An internal view: [28]
In the EU, some matters – such as security and defence issues – are decided purely by intergovernmental agreement (i.e. agreement between the governments of the EU countries), and not by the Community method
Many EU decisions are taken at 'supranational' level in the sense that they involve the EU institutions, to which EU countries have delegated some decision-making powers.
Some remarks: 1. This is now the third time, these credible references have been presented 2. References claiming that intergovermental decisions dominate have not been provided after more than 5 requests. 3. Proofs that single sentences are supported by any Wikipedia policy have not been provided. 4. Apart from fishery policy no content has been removed, most of the paragraphs have stayed the same. 5. @User:Sandpiper: Please, find somebody to advocate your proposals, if you want to answer, or as usual, ask questions. 6. The next revert to the old version, can be considered a vandalism act. Lear 21 ( talk) 09:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
So we either have intergovernmental decision, or have decision made by the institutions together, the council at least being essentially intergovernmental. Thus very little is decided except by agreement in an intergovernmental way.
I have NEVER promoted supranational domination. I ALWAYS stressed both spheres of procedures are existing. I have NEVER even started a discussion what kind of sphere is superior. Neither will I ever take part of such a discussion. It is one user, I´m not mentioning anymore, who brings up irrelevant, unfocused topics on and on again. Lear 21 ( talk) 15:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
It seems there are two things you have been editiing to achieve:
just another edit break and a note that I have become bored supporting the consensus version, so have edited it more to my liking. I have inserted the mastricht treaty second sentence as suggested, and tidied up the description of what it does. I have also relegated the economic statistics to the history section. It seems at home there, and also helps equalise the paragraph lengths, which some feel is important. I also quite like it as 'the last word' of the intro. Sandpiper ( talk) 09:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Leaving out the historical development is finally seems a useful trimming. The concentration on the state of being is most important in the end. When I look at other languages the history is hardly mentioned as well. Lear 21 ( talk) 13:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Much as i hate to break up the party, it is necessary to ask whether this intro now fairly represents the article as a whole. It should be remembered that the intro is supposed to be a complete mini-article by itself. Without the history section it arguably has room for a little more. Which is not necessarily to mean that I agree there should not be a history paragraph. I was previously of two minds about it. How the thing came about did not seem to me the most important thing, but it is not negligible. The treaty of Rome and founding date set the thing in context as having existed for 50 years. Mention of lisbon was originally included by those who thought it necessary to make a note there is about to be a modest shake up. This has also left out the bit that the EU has steadily enlarged and grown into new areas, which is quite important. This is a history section, but the specific information does more than list dates and places. Sandpiper ( talk) 22:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, I see you made further changes to the intro, reintroducing your favourite edits.
Why do you want to place the economic information at the very head of the article? This is incidental information which really only gives us an idea of the scale of the EU but does not tell us anything about what it is or does.
Why do you favour, despite your protests to the contrary, describing the EU as supranational? Sandpiper ( talk) 08:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Please stop referring to a consensus intro, which has introduced wrong claims and weak, unprecedented layout. Please NEVER,EVER AGAIN! thank you Lear 21 ( talk) 14:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, will you please sort out the largest city table. I editied it so that the title does not overlap the body of the table. You reverted it back to the original. It is not acceptable to leave it in this mess. Please either restore my fixup, or sort it properly. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Ssolberj might be the specialist to answer this. Lear 21 ( talk) 12:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, why have you set about a program of changing all the pictures in the article upon your return. I don't recall they changed much while you were away, why suddenly rush about changing them now? Is there any reason for this? Sandpiper ( talk) 15:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
From my point of view all relevant issues/sections are addressed by now. Lear 21 ( talk) 12:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Some days ago, the image of the euro banknotes was inserted in the history section. Then I thought that it would be better to have an historical image in the history section, so I replaced the 'flat and ad-like' banknotes with a 'real' image from the euro's presentation in 1998 (with president Santer). I was reverted some hours later by Lear 21, who said in his edit summary that "The currency itself including the caption is of higher value than the inaugural act". I reinserted the santer image, arguing that it would be more approperiate to have an historical image in the history section. Again I was reverted by Lair who wrote an identical summary as last time.
Do we need an image relating to the euro in the history section (is there enough space?), and if so; which one should we use? - 11:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
There is probably no doubt that the introduction of the new currency is a historic event. Looking at the official EU History at glance website supports this view [30]. The reasons supporting an introduction of an image of the currency itself are: 1. It is the physical banknotes and coins that are of daily importance and not the inaugural act 2. The inaugural act does not cover all countries which have joined after 2002. 3. The mentioned official EU website can work as a model how to present the currency/ historic event. 4. The history section includes already 2 images of officials/politicians and does not need another. 5. My personal sense of aesthetics tells me, that the 2 guys presenting the oversize coin are not made for cameras (Don´t tell them) Lear 21 ( talk) 15:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
The ECB/Frankfurt image represents the Monetary Government and is now correctly placed in the respective section. The banknote/image represents the new peoples currency and therefore the historic shift replacing the old national currencies. It is not a double information! Because of the historic significance the banknote image is needed. I will slightly expand the History section in order to create more space and address some under represented issues. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
There should be no problem to trim the long text at the EURO image. @Ssolbergj: You have long reputation of installing high quality visual content. That is very much appreciated. The proposed Santer/Euro image is on the other hand not convincing. Neither are the two officials important to represent the new currency, nor is one oversized coin a useful representation of a new currency. I also wonder, why displaying the banknote image should suddenly be a problem. It has been on the article for almost a year now. The major message to be transported by the image is, that a new CURRENCY has been introduced. That is of major significance for EU history. I have no problem with other convincing proposals showing the currency itself. Expanding the section´s written content should´nt be a problem either. Hope you can support this view. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 16:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
From my perspective we have the following situation: There is (hopefully) an agreement that the EURO currency deserves representation. The Euro-Currency image has been already at the article for almost a year without being questioned. The new Santer/image is for a number of stated reasons, unacceptable from my perspective. Conclusions: Either we have new proposals or we rather keep the established image. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 14:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The order and importance of arguments (as already stated): 1. The historic event is that physical banknotes and coins replacing national currencies and not the inaugural act 2. The inaugural act does not cover all countries which have joined after 2002. 3. The official EU website can work as a model how to present the currency/ historic event. [31] 4. The history section includes already 2 images of officials/politicians and does not need another, a little variation is no harm 5. My personal sense of aesthetics is the last! important of all arguments Lear 21 ( talk) 15:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
For more than 300 million EU citizens the historical event is the replacement of their old currency. That makes 300 million historic events, IT´S THE CURRENCY! Anyway, this has become arguing around circles. I see the following question: The image of the Euro currency is indispensable for this article. Because, the ECB image is indispensable as well, I ask you what or where are the alternative solutions? And what about this [32] Lear 21 ( talk) 17:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
There are three history images right now. Which one is coming out to make space for the euro? And... write something more so as to make space for another picture????????????? Sandpiper ( talk) 22:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Talk:List_of_largest_empires#EU can you provide something to state that EU is now an Empire? AtomAtom ( talk) 19:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Even Barasso said is an Empire . .-- AtomAtom ( talk) 20:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
“ | What we have is the first non-imperial empire...We have twenty-seven countries that fully decided to work together and to pool their sovereignty. I believe it is a great construction and we should be proud of it. | ” |
— José Manuel Barroso, 2007 |
Global power, global influence, how can you define it? Yes, you know that when you act like one you're like one. If you play like an Empire you're an Empire. The shape and the form does not count. AtomAtom ( talk) 20:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Barroso stated that the EU has dimensions like an Empire but acts politically non-imperial. It´s a catchy phrase but nothing more. An Empire projects imperial power from a center. The EU is the opposite, 27 countries pooled their souvereignity and are still enacting legislation by intergovernmental, unanimous procedures. Secondly, the power of the respective EU countries has still a high degree of independence. Lear 21 ( talk) 09:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I dont know how it appears on others screens, but on mine the EU map is really a little too big. I'm not sure how to fix this, but do others have views on this? My screen size is 1150x864. Sandpiper ( talk) 22:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Because of the highly instable character of the articles introduction the GA status should be questioned. Stability is one of the preconditions to uphold this status. This is not the case for more than a week now. Lear 21 ( talk) 11:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The article would be more stable if we tried to come to some sort-of agreement on the intro, instead of the constant cross changing/reverting currently going on. Lwxrm ( talk) 14:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
User Lear 21 has been, among others, a central part to the EU article for more than a year.. I would not doubt it for a moment. Definitely central to all disagreements I have seen. How many editors have you chased away from this page? The user ensured major waves of improvements in all aspects of the article. since I first edited this page, this has not been the case. Since I have been here, Lear has mostly been defending his entrenched views against attempted alterations by others. It may be that previously he made important improvements, but new editors arrive with new ideas. The user itself ensured a stable quality to the article, Yes, constantly suffering reversions and changes. which has become a model for other EU Wiki languages. I have noticed that frequently other language articles are simply translations of the english ones, whether good or bad. This record can not be claimed by several new editors. Personally, my favourite moment was finding that a picture I had uploaded to wiki had been moved to commons by someone who thought so well of it that he copied it there because he wanted to use it in a different language.User Lear 21 is certainly not impeccable but has proven an adaptability in all stages of the article´s development.. In my experience, Lears adaptability is only in producing alternative versions of a text which still maintain the edits he wishes to make. This can not be claimed by notably one new editor. Is that me? I do not give in to bullies, in fact they tend to make me stubborn. The article was going swimmingly with good debate and consensus article writing in the absence of the one editor who had been banned, Lear.
The FA review noted the main page editors, Lear being top with about 800 edits. Someone else observed, just how many of these were new contributionss, and how many were edits made during content wars? Sandpiper ( talk) 16:58, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Lear, as a case in point you are now arguing that the article is unsuitable for FA (you posted this on the FA review) and should not have GA, because of the multiple reversions you have made to the introduction??? Had you not returned to editing this page after your ban, there would be no problem about the intro or its stability. Can you deny this? Sandpiper ( talk)
Usually I don´t take part in discussions dealing with user behaviour or questions about who said what, when! But because I started it we can go on with this fun.
The only principle which drives me in Wikipedia is to ensure high quality, factual accuracy and an up to date comprehensive presentation of 3 articles. One of them EU. To understand what quality standards are set in Wikipedia I have read and even more important compared Hundreds of articles in terms of content, wording and layout. In the majority city- country- politics related articles many with FA status as well. I also read more than 10 newspapers online every day for more or less 10 years now. Among them FT, New York Times, L.A. Times, BBC Europe frequently. To a very high degree I very much know the most present issues, attitudes and images towards, for instance, The European Union. The internal European view as well as the global external view.
The only indication about the attitudes, intentions, interests and the quality of work I have from other editors is their edit record. Namely user Sandpiper has left no evidence in providing convincing argumentation, proposals or quality of prose to Wikipedia in general and the EU article specifically. It might sound undiplomatic, but the unique desire of any user changing and participating is just not enough. Especially not when it comes to one of the most read and already highly developed articles at Wikipedia. I have to reject Arnoutf accusations concerning FA candidacy in all terms .
The content and appearance of the engl. EU article established a comprehensiveness and standards unimaginable before(look at December 2006, only 15 months ago)! There is no doubt that a quantum leap has happened in several aspects. It is also clear that this new standard has been already copied. Therefore it must be uphold. Because of the progressing character of the EU itself, the absence of mainstream attitudes, mainstream-knowledge (specifically engl. speaking UK) and the lack of independent sources the EU article is under constant crossfire. This is also reflected in the media, and among member countries.
Finally, I can only insist on : concentrating on content, taking a clear stance on what is In & what is Out, presenting highly reliable sources or comparisons, avoiding lengthy argumentation (see my bad example) while developing a clear cut pro contra discussion culture. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 13:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
@Arnoutf: I absolutely agree on the necessary preconditions of an external peer-review without evolved editors. You are correct about that and I previously aimed to stay neutral during the procedure. But I consider myself also as an Wikipedian who cares about accuracy and style in all articles. The minor 2 points I raised during the candidacy were plainly wrong with or without my editorship. I could easily raise a number of insufficiencies and weak wording, but I won´t. The introduction should at least maintain " an almost accurate " part of the article. By the time the 2 points are addressed, they will be de-listed immediately. Lear 21 ( talk) 16:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
From now on, I will NEVER, I promise, NEVER EVER comment any behaviour or useless chatting anymore. I expect that from every other user as well, and please tell every other user...@Simonski: What is your stance towards a history para in the introduction? Where is your stance?? Where is your stance on "much of the EU functioning, bla,bla,bla" Where is your stance?? Are you defending this shit? What have you done to improve the very obvious misguided statements? You can go on accusing, whining, misinterpreting. You can go on with superfluous palaver or you can involve yourself with short pro/contra statements. There will be always transformation to this article, but it should be well argued. The funny thing is, I hate being the housekeeper. The funny thing is, that I am a happy person knowing that with my help 3 major articles have improved massively. But the unfunny thing is that good things have to be kept up. It is very easy to convince me, with quality or a good faith edit record in respective articles. Starting your edits with: "Fuck section this", "Fuck section that", "Fuck supranational", "Fuck all images", "Fuck all layout rules", "EU is only UN", etc., etc., etc. ... these kind of edits right at the beginning does not raise my trust in good faith or good knowledge either. Lear 21 ( talk) 18:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed someone just added a sentence to the history section about the parliament elections, half of which repeated the sentence before, but half of which ws a new point. Lear has also made some recent additions, and others have. The history section is creeping bigger all the time. Is this desireable, or even permissable given the existence of a perfectly good history article, and the excessive length of this one? Sandpiper ( talk)
Someone added them....Lear. It is a bit of a circular argument. Add more content and then it suggests having sections. less content, no need for sections. So I havn't worried about it just at the moment, but thought we needed to address the growth issue. Would you suggest we delete sports and have the extra paras on history? I am rather inclined to think this article does not need more history, and definitely does need pruning. The problem has always been that no one agrees where. Sandpiper ( talk) 13:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The history section says In 2002 euro notes and coins replaced national currencies in 12 of the member states. In 2004 ten new countries (eight of which had formerly been Eastern Bloc countries) joined the EU.[16] At the start of 2007 Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU and the euro was adopted by Slovenia. On 1st January 2008, Malta and Cyprus joined the Eurozone.[16]
The monetary union section says at more lengthNine years later the euro was launched in eleven of the then fifteen member states as an accounting currency, meaning that national currencies remained in use but with exchange rates locked to the euro. On 1 January 2002, euro notes and coins were issued and the national currencies were phased out. Membership increased to twelve in 2002 and now fifteen countries belong to the Eurozone using the euro as their sole official currency. All other EU members except Denmark and the United Kingdom have agreed to join as a condition of being members of the EU. Slovenia adopted the Euro on the 1 January 2007, Cyprus and Malta on the 1 January 2008. Dates for others will be set when economic conditions have been met.
So basically history repeats what is in monetary union. how to reduce this reptition? Sandpiper ( talk) 21:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I commend you for knocking out 10 words, but we have also lost some names of the countries concerned. This may not mater as the next section lists all the members. Is there anything we could reasonably do to only mention members once, so either historically naming them as they join, or just in the list? The trouble with just scrapping the list is that it then becomes difficult to find the members in this history speel where they would only be mentioned as they join. On the other hand, people may be interested to read when their particular country joined. They are all on the map of EU members. Would that do so we could scrap listing them? Or is this info so essential it needs to be re-atated? Sandpiper ( talk)
A sentence in the 1st paragraph says "EU generates ... in 2007". Can it be changed so that it has the actual share for that year and not an estimate"? 90.190.225.121 ( talk) 14:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Monetary union Further information: Euro and Economic and Monetary Union of the European Union
"All other EU members except Denmark and the United Kingdom have agreed to join as a condition of being members of the EU and dates for this will be set when economic conditions have been met. Public opinion in Denmark currently favours joining. Sweden has pointedly failed to take necessary economic steps."
I would say that this is not only misleading but a strange lie. Even more so since the reason Sweden hasn't joined is duly covered in other articles on Wikipedia. Namely that there was a ballot on whether to join or not. (nevermind the specifics around that.) "The necessary economic steps" has never been an issue.
Or am I wrong? Then someone put a reference there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.229.224 ( talk) 20:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
The section for the Commission is shockingly small. For example its role of being the motor of integration and the EU POV (as opposed to intergovernmental 'nationalism' in the council) isn't mentioned as far as I can see. And that the number of commissioners will be dramatically reduced after 2014 isn't mentioned either. Could it be a good solution to merge the "Politics" section (which is rather small also) into the "Governance" section, in order to provide more 'meat on the bones' of the different institutions and prevent duplication of information? Barroso's image would certainly not be misplaced had it been in the commission section. - -- 01:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
The dissolution of the single Politics section seems reasonable. After trimming the content of the section it could be merged into other sections. Especially the second para seems weak and could be dissolved. Personally, I could even do without all paras. The Barroso image should be kept though. all the best Lear 21 ( talk) 12:40, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
International Herald Tribune about Key EU accomplishments over the past 50 years Lear 21 ( talk) 13:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Right, I was thinking - it seems to be going incredibly slow, and the feedback from the reviewers quite frankly has been, well, crap (though it has pointed out a few things we had missed) - it has seemed almost half-assed and I don't think they seem to have any intention of granting the page FA at the moment. On top of that, surely we can't possibly expect them to even consider FA when we haven't even got a consensus-based intro at the moment. So, what do you guys think, should we not just leave FA review for just now, iron out the last few things and then try again later this year? -- Simonski ( talk) 18:51, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Yup it is closed the article was not promoted. My take on why we failed:
If we are not willing / able to these 3 conditions, I think this article going through future FA reviews is not only useless, but a waste of the, already overstretched, time of the FA candidacy reviewers. Arnoutf ( talk) 14:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I have in my hand received today the Single payment scheme handbook and guidance for England 2008, published by the RPA, for DEFRA, for the government. From it i quote, The european council has set a 0% rate of compulsory set-aside for the 2008 scheme year....
Do readers get the impression from this article that the European council, composed of heads of government and meeting four times a year would be the body which decided this? Right now I don't know if this is true or not, but I suspect it isn't. Sandpiper ( talk) 12:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Another example. Here is a EU paper talking about CAP regulations [35]. It refers to decisions of the Council of the European Union. I point it out because it is referred to in this other document from hmso of the UK government [36]. That document refers to the first one, talking about European council regulations.
I conclude from this that the article is incorrect. The EU may consider that the European council is simply the heads of state, but UK government seems to think the European council is the same thing as the council of the European union. This makes a nonsense of the distinction between the names being made in the article. ANyone seeing a UK government publication referring to the the european council, checking it on wiki, would be misled. Now, any of you lawyer types have a view on this? It seems as though we need to return to the common sense view that the names are in practice used interchangeably. http://www.england-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/em2005/uksiem_20053460_en.pdf Sandpiper ( talk) 09:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
By that logic wouldn't you need to check what every Member State uses? Does the British government ALWAYS make this mistake? I think not. If you check the FCO http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1138870963214 it clearly makes a disctinction between the two, signalling (as I have said all along) the European Council has no legislative function. The FCO is the "home" to the Minister for Europe, and so I think their view is more telling. Lwxrm ( talk) 11:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Do we have any credible sources that say "the people" use it in this way? Lwxrm ( talk) 09:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
What about adding some info and link about EU Tube???-- Kozuch ( talk) 19:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Because of the official character of EU Tube, I think it is credible & relevant enough to be re-integrated here. Lear 21 ( talk) 15:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, I am asking - is there a way to include the link? I would do it but the "External links" section is all Spanish to me (read is not a standard "EL" section)... I dont want to break formating or whatever...-- Kozuch ( talk) 22:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
It should be mentioned somewhere(the intro?) that the bundesrat is similar to the council of ministers.Is my understanding that people consider a structure like the council exclusively a international organization thing,but we have exactly that in Germany,apparently it's unique.-- 88.82.47.84 ( talk) 16:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I agree that the Bundesrat and the Council of the European Union are similar designs. However, I don't think this fact is noteworthy enough to put in the introduction. Also, it would be interesting to know whether this is just a historical coincidence, or whether the design of the Bundesrat was in fact an influence in the development of the EU. I would suspect it was more a coincidence than a conscious decision -- up until the introduction of QMV and co-decision, the development of the Council of the EU was just like any other international organization's ministerial council; and QMV & co-decision were introduced, not to make the Council like the Bundesrat, but rather because they made sense as a way to try to speed up integration (QMV) and tackle the "democratic deficit" (co-decision). -- SJK ( talk) 02:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Turn your back, and what do you get? What exactly is a 'member common to sovereign contries'? Why do supranational institiutions, for example the court, only concern themselves with economic affairs? Sandpiper ( talk) 22:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I see we now have Particularly the need for modereration of the single market has prompted the establishment of bodies capable of making decisions without the consent of national governments. The exact distribution of competences between member states and Union is explicitly defined in the proposed Treaty of Lisbon. ER what? the need for moderation of the single market was the reason for creating the european court, commission, central bank? I though some of these were created for the european coal and steel agreement, before the single market existed? What does 'moderation of the single market' mean? Then, why do we say the Lisbon treaty will resolve an implicitly unresolved existing distribution of competences between states and the EU? This is completely back to front, as well as wrong. There is obviously an existing distribution of powers, Lisbon just moves the deckchairs around a bit. The present para utterly fails to explain SN, IG, and is frankly now veering on the wholly incomprehensible. Sandpiper ( talk) 09:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Really not sure about this new image. I would recommend that we get rid of it personally. Anybody else agree? -- Simonski ( talk) 14:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I notice we still have a comment in the intro implying the EU was founded in 1957 with the EC, rather than 1951 with the coal and steel union. This seems to be incorrect. However, I was listening to a discussion about the Marshall Plan yesterday. This was an American plan to integrate Europe, and it was being argued that it succeeded.Wiki says The Marshall Plan has also long been seen as one of the first elements of European integration, as it erased tariff trade barriers and set up institutions to coordinate the economy on a continental level. So maybe the EU traces its origins to this? Sandpiper ( talk) 08:14, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
In 2007 the EU/EC officially celebrated its 50th anniversary/birthday. 2007 minus 50 equals 1957 ! There is no need to introduce an individual point of view to the intro. Every historic detail is elaborated in the History section. Lear 21 ( talk) 14:48, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Did it? I saw a EU page saying it was celebrating the 50th anniversary of the thing which happened 50 years before, ie the 50th birthday of the EC. I also saw a EU page stating it traced its origins to the coal and steel agreement. Similarly, one day we may celebrate the 50th birthday of the EU, which this article quite plainly states began in 1993. This article could claim correctly that the EC was founded in 1957, but this article gives the incorrect impression that this was the earliest predecessor of the EU, and it was not. The programme about the marshall plan included someone asking people what it was, and they didn't know. Happily I do know what it was, but can't say I would know enough to definitively say it was the direct point of inception of the EU or not. To say there was a spirit of cooperation and removal of barriers within europe is to miss the point that this was a precondition of receiving aid under the plan. Sandpiper ( talk) 21:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I do not think that all of the edits made to the SM section is fact. A single POV source cannot be cited as proof. I do not want to get into a deep policital debate so... I reverted. -- Triwbe ( talk) 15:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
A BBC poll [37] including the EU as a 'country' entity among others. Note that this reference does not advocate the opinion that the European Union IS a country. Lear 21 ( talk) 18:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I see they chose to include britain france and Germany, but not other EU countries. One might surmise the choice was those places of interest to mainly british listeners. The EU is of great interest to some britains who nonetheless see no future for it as a country. Sandpiper ( talk) 23:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The main reason is to demonstrate that neither Opec, UN, Nafta, Uefa, African Union are integrated in these lists. Obviously the EU, within a global perception, is seen as a significant single entity and actor. Lear 21 ( talk) 13:26, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I think if the poll had been taken by a broadcaster from a member country of the African union, it well might have listed AU views and not mentioned EU ones. This is just a question of what I can see from where I stand. 01:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
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