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I merged the material from The Lord's Supper. There was no reason to have a separate page for that.-- JW1805 22:46, 30 July 2005 (UTC) Shouldn't this page be at Communion, rather than Eucharist? Wouldn't that be a more non-denominational term? -- JW1805 22:51, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Hummmm...I see both points. Communion does have problems that it has other meanings, but Communion (Christian) wouldn't. Eucharist isn't a very well known term for some denominations, so some users might find it difficult to find. I think a move to Communion is in order, with the understanding that if any problems arise (i.e., a thousand "Other Uses" entries appear) then it will be returned to Eucharist. -- Essjay · Talk 09:00, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Eucharist#Individual_pre-communion_preparation seems out of place. Should it be merged with theologies or go elsewhere? Paul foord 07:30, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the two questions above, I would suggest the following:
The current format is a relic from when the article was a lot shorter. With all the material that has been added, a reformatting is somewhat overdue.
Thoughts? JHCC (talk) 18:56, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm all for it, but don't take that as a commitment to actually do it! ; - ) -- Essjay · Talk 08:56, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
First of all, a big THANK YOU! to everyone who jumped in to expand the introduction and terminology sections after my big edit. I guess everyone was just waiting for someone else to make the first move.
Second, before we proceed further, let's talk about the specific language of the intro. Mkmcconn did an excellent job expanding from my version, but I question some of the new language. In particular, "ordinance" strikes me as insufficiently universal or descriptive, especially since it is used below in contrast with "sacrament". I also think it is important to restore the section about the non-liturgical meaning of "communion", but it would be better in the intro. Something like this:
Note that I'm not saying by whom it is believed that Christ instituted this practice, since many non-Christians believe that, historically speaking, Jesus did exist and did institute the Eucharist, even if they do not believe in it (or him) themselves. I've also added a comment within the text to future editors who might consider changing this to "Christians believe".
How does this sound? JHCC (talk) 15:10, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Is this term familiar to anyone else? I've never heard it before, a Yahoo search shows this page to be the only result, and Google doesn't appear to have any. -- Essjay · Talk 06:16, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
While on the subject, I think this statement probably goes too far: "Southern Baptists, General Baptists and non-denominational groups favor open communion, in which all professed believers are invited to participate." I believe stating that Southern Baptists as a group favor open communion is a little misleading. While possibly the majority of Southern Baptists now do practice open communion, a sizable minority practices either closed or close (same as "cracked") communion. The SBC's Baptist Faith and Message seems somewhat ambiguous (seemingly leaving room for interpretation), but states that baptism by immersion "is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper." I don't think that's open communion as most folks understand it. http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#vii - Rlvaughn 01:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
“Communion (Christianity)”, is a strange title for an article that says it “is about a Christian sacrament”. “Communion (Christianity)” brings first to mind notions much wider than that of the sacrament. To direct thoughts immediately to the sacrament, the title would at least have to be changed to "Holy Communion".
Even "Holy Communion" is not the most suitable title. Only a minority of Christians use this as their primary designation for the sacrament. Nor does it seem to be the most ancient designation among Christians. When speaking of the sacrament, the great majority of Christians use the term "Eucharist", the former title of this article.
As far as I can see, Wikipedia articles that mention Christian sacraments speak of the Eucharist, rather than Holy Communion, as one of the sacraments. They never list "Communion (Christianity)" as one.
The present introductory definition claims that "Eucharist" is a wider term than "Communion": "Eucharist, a term preferred in some traditions, may refer either to the celebration of communion, or to the consecrated bread and wine of this sacrament." On the contrary, the word "communion" is more closely associated with the consecrated bread and wine than the word "Eucharist" is, for when people speak of receiving communion, they primarily mean receiving the consecrated bread and wine, and far fewer Christians speak of "celebrating communion" than of "celebrating the Eucharist".
Please restore the former title and introductory paragraph, or at least something like it. The present introduction/definition favours a "minimalist" interpretation: its terminology is strongly reminiscent of the paragraph that begins: "Most other Protestant Churches see ..."
Lima 14:31, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
"Witness the Roman Catholic Church which insists that lay servers be called Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion" and not Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist. You are right to point this out. It shows that for the Roman Catholic Church "Eucharist" is not synonymous with "Holy Communion", still less with "Communion". -- Lima 13:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I submit that the choice of "Communion" as the title is not NPOV. Read the "Terminology" section. Lima 15:50, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
The Youngstown directives require updating. Use of the phrase "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist" is one of the abuses in English-speaking countries that the Holy See's instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum of 25 March 2004 asked to be remedied: "The only minister who can confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist in persona Christi is a validly ordained Priest. Hence the name minister of the Eucharist belongs properly to the Priest alone. Moreover, also by reason of their sacred Ordination, the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion are the Bishop, the Priest and the Deacon ... If, moreover, reasons of real necessity prompt it, another lay member of Christ’s faithful may also be delegated ... This function is to be understood strictly according to the name by which it is known, that is to say, that of extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, and not 'special minister of Holy Communion' nor extraordinary minister of the Eucharist nor 'special minister of the Eucharist', by which names the meaning of this function is unnecessarily and improperly broadened" (sections 154-156, bolding by me).
Redemptionis Sacramentum introduced no novelty. Official documents of the Catholic Church have long recommended the faithful, if they have the proper dispositions, to receive communion each time they participate in the Mass. An evident distinction is thus made: participation in the Eucharist in one sense is possible without participation in the other sense (the "meal" aspect).
"More widely known" is a matter of simple mathematics. Roman Catholics alone seem to be more than half the total of Christians. Add to them the Eastern Orthodox, which far outnumbers any Protestant Church you can think of, the Oriental Orthodox ...
"Rite" is a NPOV term that can be used with equal freedom by those who interpret the Eucharist minimally or maximally. People perform all sorts of rites, not all of them sacred or semi-sacred, such as blowing out the candles on a birthday cake. But to define the Eucharist as "communion" or "meal" is, some would think, to restrict its meaning and to exclude either implicitly or, as the "Terminology" section remarks, deliberately the further significance others do see in it. So these last two terms seem to me to be non-NPOV in this context and not really any more acceptable than would be the word "Mass".
The fact that "communion" has meanings quite distinct from the Eucharistic meaning (for instance in the phrase "full communion", or in 1 John 1:3) is a drawback, not an advantage.
"Eucharist" is an established term in ecumenical circles. It is used by the World Council of Churches, which many years ago brought out a document that had a very wide circulation. I no longer have the book with me, but I think it was called the BEM (Baptism, Eucharist, Ministry) document, giving maximalist and minimalist views on each. Indeed I think rather it was called the BEMA document, but I do not remember what the A stood for.
Lima 21:18, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I beg leave to suggest that the present title of this article really belongs to the article at present titled Communion, Christian meaning and that the title of this article should revert to Eucharist.
Lima 11:40, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
User Michael Hardy's suggestion (at 20:18 yesterday) that the contents of Communion, Christian meaning be merged with this article is a further indication of how ambiguous the title "Communion (Christianity)" is. This title is, admittedly, followed by the statement,"This article is about a Christian sacrament", but very many (most?) people understand "Communion (Christianity)" to mean instead the bond that unites Christians always, even when not participating in the sacrament. This bond, a clearly distinct, even if somehow related, theme, is the topic of Communion, Christian meaning. Most users will have failed to notice the recent removal of the previous unambiguous title of the present article: the link Eucharist still points here, and the body of the article continues to use "Eucharist" and "Eucharistic" as the chief terms with which to refer to the sacrament or rite.
Lima 08:16, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
If we're talking about the rite itself and not the reception of the consecrated elements, then "Communion" is indeed more widely known as "Eucharist" based solely on the information given in the article. This being the preferred usage in Roman Catholic and Orthodox circles alone means that about 3/4 of all Christians use the terms in that way. What more reference is necessary? (That's an actual question, not rhetorical.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Please accept my apologies. I made the change in the text before seeing that a comment had been posted on the Talk page, accepting that the term "Eucharist" is in fact more common than "communion" for the rite described in the article.
Lima 07:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I would request that the references to the Anglican Church be placed under an entirely seperate heading, as opposed to being placed under the "Protestant" category. Anglicans are not technically Protestant. They consider themselves to be fully Catholic and fully reformed, and are therefore unique among groups. A more accurate grouping of Christian denominations would be "Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopal, Protestant." The Anglican church, in all of her official documents, never identifies herself as protestant. -- Anonymous.
We have to define 'protestant' in an Anglican way. For Anglicans, protestant just means that we deny the authority of the bishop of Rome. In light of this definition, you could also say that the Eastern Church is protestant (though I would not recommend that, for they are not!). We would personally prefer not to be set under the umbrella of Protestantism, because we are truly the Via Media. If we are the bridge between Roman Catholic and Protestant, then it is impossible that we are fully one or the other. I think it would just solve a lot of confusion to list Anglicanism as a separate entity from Protestantism. (After all, there are many Anglicans who detest the name 'protestant,' and would find it highly offensive to be labeled as such. Thanks!
While the article covers quite a lot of ground, it only hints at the 'status' of the 'accidents' of the transubstantiation. A mention is made that 'catholics (...) offer adoration to the Eucharist'. Yet, during the communion, we are only in contact with the 'bread' for a short ammount of time - and the ritual of receiving the bread in itself if quite varied. For example, I've seen people:
Does anyone know what's the appropriate way? Also, this morning my 10 year old daughter had the ingenious idea to break the bread in half (probably copying what she saw the priest do), drawing looks of horror from the rest of the congregation. I must say I was myself quite horrified, but not sure why. Does anyone know if 'breaking' the bread post-transubstantiation is blaphemous? And dare I say, what is someone walked out with the Eucharist out of the church? Would it stay transubstantiated? Adidas 13:28, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Catholic and Orthodox teaching is clear and straightforward. After consecration by a validly ordained priest, what remains for a while on the altar, what is distributed to those who receive Communion, what is taken out of the church to the sick at home or in hospital, what is kept even for days in the tabernacle, is not bread. It is the body of Christ and should therefore be treated with the utmost respect, indeed with adoration. In themselves, none of the actions you describe are necessarily disrespectful, unless a people's culture or traditions classify them as such. The reactions to what your daughter did may perhaps indicate that her action did fall under such a classification. (Protestant teaching, in general, differs from this; the article suggests that Anglican teaching allows everyone to pick whatever belief they please.) Lima 17:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for this useful information Lima. Adidas 23:05, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The article has become messy, needs to be edited, with better referencing to related articles, some of which could be expanded with material from here. Also this could better summarise material in other articles - the material here compared to the Lutheran position on Real Presence is a good example. Paul foord 15:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Can someone tell me which ones don't use it?-- HistoricalPisces 18:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I am Anglican and while wine is the norm, some Anglican churches do offer grape juice in addition to wine (as an alternative for those who don't want alcoholic wine). Admittedly these are Anglican churches of the "low" or "evangelical" variety which might not be too common in the USA. I have read that both the USA and Canada lack a radically low-church Anglican tradition that is present pretty much everywhere else in the Anglican world. I suspect most middle to high (and ultra-high) Anglican/Episcopal churches (whether in North America or elsewhere) offer only wine. Apodeictic 02:01, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Lima, I really think this should be briefer. ISTM the place for a discussion this detailed is in Eucharistic theology, which obviously should be expanded to cover the whole range of theologies in more detail anyway. Here there should be nothing more than a brief summary for a "gross" comparison. If all the sections were to be as long as this, we'd have a very lengthy article. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I have looked at the Real Presence article for the first time, and I see that the false account of Catholic theology recently inserted in the Eucharist article was simply lifted from there, as was the description of Lutheran theology. I think the movement should be in opposite direction. Much of the Eucharist article should be moved to the Real Presence article. There is no point in having an article on the Real Presence, if its content is to be repeated in the Eucharist article.
The Eucharist article was/is a mess precisely because of treating of so many marginal things: minimal ritual questions such as explaining "piscina" and giving its synonyms(!); details of preparation for receiving the Eucharist/Holy Communion/communion etc. Questions of open/closed communion also have absolutely no place here. There is an ample article on each of them. (Indeed I do not see why there should be two articles on that single question, which would more suitably be dealt with in a single article.)
The essential function of an article on the Eucharist is to explain what the Eucharist is understood to be. In other words, it should give the theology of the Eucharist - why on earth has someone just started a needless duplicating article on the same matter? - leaving derivative and marginal matters for other articles. For Catholic theology, the Eucharist is much more than the Real Presence or Holy Communion. The Catechism of the Catholic Church devotes its sections 1322-1405 (84 sections) to the Eucharist; it treats of the Real Presence only in sections 1373-1381 (9 sections). Instead of distorting the Catholic idea of the Eucharist by limiting it to one aspect, it would be better to expand what others hold about the Eucharist as a whole. And, if they have little or no theology of the Eucharist (after all, Jews and Moslems have none), is that any reason why we should pretend that the Catholic Church has little or no theology of the Eucharist?
If I remember right, the article Mass (liturgy) refers the reader to the Eucharist article for the theology of the Eucharist. Do we direct the reader to an article that says absolutely nothing about what Catholics see as the sacrifice aspect of the Eucharist and instead speaks, as this one did for a while, of the Roman Catholic idea of the Eucharist as "transformation of the 'elements' through the work of the Holy Spirit at the time of consecration into 'gifts'"?! How come then the Roman-rite Mass has a "Prayer over the Gifts" before the Consecration? And don't we all transform all sorts of things into gifts when we present them to others?
I should perhaps apologize for that last paragraph. It is as marginal as many parts of the Eucharist article are. Nevertheless, I mention one more marginal matter: I did shorten the Roman Catholic section, omitting two paragraphs.
Lima 13:19, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the article is looking better, more concise. Still some more trimming to do. I think we cover the Roman Catholic view adequately, incidentally (at least in terms of length of the section)...there is a link provided to Transubstantiation for further particulars. Perhaps the "Summary" section can be cut in favor of a link to Eucharistic theologies contrasted, which covers pretty much the same thing. Also, a paragraph or two under the Roman Catholic liturgy section & the Protestant liturgy section (focusing on, I would assume, the BCP & the Lutherans) are needed. I personally think it really is looking more "cleaned up", less rambling and "all over the place", and more concise. KHM03 14:15, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Communion, Christian meaning article was created recently, I moved to Community (Christian) based on statement that it relates to koinonia κοινωνία maybe merge with Communion of Saints? Has cleanup and merge notices --> needs work. Paul foord 14:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
The name of the article that Paul foord renamed "Community (Christian)" has, long since, been corrected to "Communion (Christian)", a concept distinct from that of "Eucharist". Why does this article on the Eucharist carry an indication that it is part of a series denominated by the ambiguous word "Communion", when the articles in the series, and the symbols used to refer to the series, cover no meaning whatever of "Communion" other than that for which there exists the clear precise term "Eucharist", used in the title of this central article of the series?
Lima 10:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
As said above, the interpretation of Christian communion is that one day all Christians will celebrate their faith in unity with God. While the Eucharist is the partaking of the Holy Feast: The Body and Blood of Christ. (I am trying to not let my Catholic roots inject to many opinions.) To properly express the sacrament that Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Churches, etc. partake, the article title must be Eucharist. (THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN TAGGED FOREVER! PLEASE LETS GET PEOPLE BACK ON THE PROJECT). Trevor 17:41, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The use of the word accident in dicussing transubstantiation troubles me. While the Catholic Catechism uses the term in dicussing The Real Presence, I feel that the artice gives the term an unattained meaning; in which the transubstantiation is in itself an accident, or unattended. I propose that if the term, accident is to be kept, it must not refer to accident (philosophy). A possible redirect to a small article specificly dealing with the term in its Christian context? Trevor 18:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Somehow, in the process of moving one section to another or some other editing process, I seem to have deleted a big chunk of this article. For this, I apologize. Right now, I am too tired to figure out exactly what I did. If someone who is more of a nite owl than I can do so, please correct what I have done without simply reverting, since the latter would remove most, if not all, of my other edits, which are useful and appropriate. If not, I will take care of this sometime on Sunday. Again, I apologize. It was not my intention to do this. -- Midnite Critic 05:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Glad that's cleared up. Good edit overall. I disagree, though, with an idea that appears in a couple places in your text: you seem to see disbelief in Eucharistic adoration as inherently incompatible with the Real Presence doctrine. This is POV. There are some traditions (notably Lutheranism) which hold a doctrine of Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist while rejecting "adoration" of the consecrated elements. I deleted the comment about Calvin in this regard as POV. I left the Anglican one for the moment although I do think that also needs to be edited.-- Srleffler 06:50, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Do we really need this new category Category:Christian events, and if so, does Eucharist actually belong in it?-- Srleffler 23:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
The category is certainly needed for uncategorized, Christian events such as music festivals, crusades, awards, etc. However, the question should probably be, "Should the Eucharist be listed as a Christian event?" As it's obviously one, I don't see why not. What is it hurting? -- Jason Gastrich 23:52, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
This article seems to have many more links than my reading of WP:WEB indicates it should. I removed these ones as apparently being homepages, but I'm not sure how much need there is for any of them given the completeness of the article. I left in things like Emerson and Wesley's articles, but even they should arguably be moved to the articles on those people unless they are sources for this article.
[Unsigned comment by User:Just zis Guy, you know?
Hi again Guy. Why do you keep bringing up WP:WEB? That guideline is clearly not the standard for external links. WP:WEB defines whether a website is notable. Websites must be notable for there to be an entire Wikipedia article about that website. There is AFAIK no requirement anywhere that websites need be notable in order to be linked to in an "External links" section. If you know of such a requirement or recommendation, please post it.
Looking through the links, I agree that most of them are not useful enough to merit inclusion. Three of the links you deleted seem like they might be worth keeping, at a glance:
This is a complicated page, since it deals with the discrepant beliefs and practices of many different Christian sects, and attempts to document and compare those of each while maintaining NPOV. It seems useful to me on a page like this to have a large selection of external links and futher reading to provide more information relevant to each sect, as well as material comparing them. Links that themselves provide bibiographies for further research or material of historical interest seem useful.-- Srleffler 04:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
-- Srleffler 04:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted the attempt to move Anglicans out of the "Protestant" category, based on the dictionary definition and WP:NPOV. My copy of Concise Oxford defines Protestant as:
I would be fine with a note somewhere (perhaps on the Christianity page?), to the effect that some Anglicans (all Anglo-Catholics? Only some?) object to this. NPOV says that we document disagreements like this. We don't attempt to settle them here, and it is never acceptable to attempt to edit a point of view into Wikipedia as if it were the Truth. Protestant has a clear dictionary definition. Any attempt to implicitly redefine the meaning of the word here is POV. -- Srleffler 06:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, not all Protestants reject the episcopalian structure of the church (see Methodism). Also, Methodist Eucharistic theology is very close to Anglican Eucharistic theology (in fact, because of the Articles, they are close in most areas). There are other examples, of course. the point is that Methodism is Protestant. What defines Anglicanism as Protestant isn't its similarities to Roman Catholicism, but its history. It arose as a "protest" to Rome. It's a Protestant denomination...nothing wrong with that. To call it such is simply to agree with history (see English Reformation). KHM03 01:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
We can't ever settle this debate. Ever since the break from Rome there have been vastly different opinions held within Anglicanism as to its nature. Now if Anglicans themselves can't agree as to what Anglicanism is, how do we expect non-Anglicans to have any idea of what Anglicanism is?
We Anglicans all have "our" vision of Anglicanism and believe it to be the one true vision. This rift has grown even greater since the Oxford movement shattered the (loosely) protestant (yes protestant!) Anglican settlement. There are, quite simply put, mutually exclusive -- contradictory and irreconcilable -- visions of Anglicanism. You can't get a tractarian and an evangelical to agree on much except a vague agreement in a few doctrinal essentials and a shared dislike for theological liberalism. For the record I'm Anglican, fiercely Protestant (Reformed/Calvinist) and deeply offended NOT to be counted as protestant. I really don't care if papists think Anglicanism to be different from protestant. Having rejected the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome at the Reformation, we no longer have to bow to his (and his "ecclesial community's") opinion on whether we are protestant or not. In fact from a protestant point of view, the Roman evaluation is flawed but not far off the mark. Romanists emphasise ecclesiology over soteriology. Because Romanists like to see things in terms of ecclesiology of course they note a distinction between Anglicanism and other (continental) protestant churches. But it doesn't take a genius to realise that. You can be protestant and have no bishops or you can be protestant and have bishops -- supposed apostolic succession or not. So I have no scruples in defining Anglicanism as protestant. That is because soteriology is prior to ecclesiology for a Protestant; and Anglicanism teaches Reformed soteriology.
I have no scruples in defining Anglicanism as Protestant Reformed (not Lutheran, not Armninian -- but Reformed) in theology (the theology of the Westminster Confession is thoroughly Anglican); it is in its church structure that it is somewhere between Geneva and Rome. But for a true Protestant, this is adiaphora. As an evangelical Anglican I'm easy-going on episcopacy and Apostolic Succession. We have them as historical accidents (well I'm not sure that anyone can actually be 100% confident we have apostolic succession) but neither is essential to Christianity or indeed Anglicanism. Being a Geneva man I have a lot more in common with likeminded Christians in other denominations (eg Presbyterians) than I do with liberals or Romeward-leaning tractarians in my own denomination. In fact I think that Anglo-Catholics (if not blatantly disregarding them) twist the 39 Articles and the BCP beyond all recognition in trying to uphold their tractarian distinctives. But I'm sure they would beg to differ :-) So we have to do justice here on Wikipedia to the major views. Let the tractarians present their view of Anglicanism; let the evangelicals present theirs and let the liberals present theirs.
Who is to say that Newman's (in his pre-papist stage), Pusey's, Laud's or indeed Hooker's vision of Anglicanism is authentic? Why not Latimer, Ridley or Cranmer's? Or indeed the Puritans' and Westminster Divines'? They were Anglicans too.
Most of the articles referring to Anglicanism on Wikipedia (including the ones on the Lord's Supper andthe Real Presence) are very much Anglo-Catholic in POV and need to be revised to accommodate other visions of Anglicanism. You can't push tractarianism as Anglicanism and maintain a neutral POV. All the different POVs within Anglicanism deserve a fair hearing. Apodeictic 01:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I merged the material from The Lord's Supper. There was no reason to have a separate page for that.-- JW1805 22:46, 30 July 2005 (UTC) Shouldn't this page be at Communion, rather than Eucharist? Wouldn't that be a more non-denominational term? -- JW1805 22:51, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Hummmm...I see both points. Communion does have problems that it has other meanings, but Communion (Christian) wouldn't. Eucharist isn't a very well known term for some denominations, so some users might find it difficult to find. I think a move to Communion is in order, with the understanding that if any problems arise (i.e., a thousand "Other Uses" entries appear) then it will be returned to Eucharist. -- Essjay · Talk 09:00, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
Eucharist#Individual_pre-communion_preparation seems out of place. Should it be merged with theologies or go elsewhere? Paul foord 07:30, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the two questions above, I would suggest the following:
The current format is a relic from when the article was a lot shorter. With all the material that has been added, a reformatting is somewhat overdue.
Thoughts? JHCC (talk) 18:56, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm all for it, but don't take that as a commitment to actually do it! ; - ) -- Essjay · Talk 08:56, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
First of all, a big THANK YOU! to everyone who jumped in to expand the introduction and terminology sections after my big edit. I guess everyone was just waiting for someone else to make the first move.
Second, before we proceed further, let's talk about the specific language of the intro. Mkmcconn did an excellent job expanding from my version, but I question some of the new language. In particular, "ordinance" strikes me as insufficiently universal or descriptive, especially since it is used below in contrast with "sacrament". I also think it is important to restore the section about the non-liturgical meaning of "communion", but it would be better in the intro. Something like this:
Note that I'm not saying by whom it is believed that Christ instituted this practice, since many non-Christians believe that, historically speaking, Jesus did exist and did institute the Eucharist, even if they do not believe in it (or him) themselves. I've also added a comment within the text to future editors who might consider changing this to "Christians believe".
How does this sound? JHCC (talk) 15:10, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Is this term familiar to anyone else? I've never heard it before, a Yahoo search shows this page to be the only result, and Google doesn't appear to have any. -- Essjay · Talk 06:16, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
While on the subject, I think this statement probably goes too far: "Southern Baptists, General Baptists and non-denominational groups favor open communion, in which all professed believers are invited to participate." I believe stating that Southern Baptists as a group favor open communion is a little misleading. While possibly the majority of Southern Baptists now do practice open communion, a sizable minority practices either closed or close (same as "cracked") communion. The SBC's Baptist Faith and Message seems somewhat ambiguous (seemingly leaving room for interpretation), but states that baptism by immersion "is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper." I don't think that's open communion as most folks understand it. http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#vii - Rlvaughn 01:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
“Communion (Christianity)”, is a strange title for an article that says it “is about a Christian sacrament”. “Communion (Christianity)” brings first to mind notions much wider than that of the sacrament. To direct thoughts immediately to the sacrament, the title would at least have to be changed to "Holy Communion".
Even "Holy Communion" is not the most suitable title. Only a minority of Christians use this as their primary designation for the sacrament. Nor does it seem to be the most ancient designation among Christians. When speaking of the sacrament, the great majority of Christians use the term "Eucharist", the former title of this article.
As far as I can see, Wikipedia articles that mention Christian sacraments speak of the Eucharist, rather than Holy Communion, as one of the sacraments. They never list "Communion (Christianity)" as one.
The present introductory definition claims that "Eucharist" is a wider term than "Communion": "Eucharist, a term preferred in some traditions, may refer either to the celebration of communion, or to the consecrated bread and wine of this sacrament." On the contrary, the word "communion" is more closely associated with the consecrated bread and wine than the word "Eucharist" is, for when people speak of receiving communion, they primarily mean receiving the consecrated bread and wine, and far fewer Christians speak of "celebrating communion" than of "celebrating the Eucharist".
Please restore the former title and introductory paragraph, or at least something like it. The present introduction/definition favours a "minimalist" interpretation: its terminology is strongly reminiscent of the paragraph that begins: "Most other Protestant Churches see ..."
Lima 14:31, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
"Witness the Roman Catholic Church which insists that lay servers be called Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion" and not Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist. You are right to point this out. It shows that for the Roman Catholic Church "Eucharist" is not synonymous with "Holy Communion", still less with "Communion". -- Lima 13:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I submit that the choice of "Communion" as the title is not NPOV. Read the "Terminology" section. Lima 15:50, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
The Youngstown directives require updating. Use of the phrase "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist" is one of the abuses in English-speaking countries that the Holy See's instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum of 25 March 2004 asked to be remedied: "The only minister who can confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist in persona Christi is a validly ordained Priest. Hence the name minister of the Eucharist belongs properly to the Priest alone. Moreover, also by reason of their sacred Ordination, the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion are the Bishop, the Priest and the Deacon ... If, moreover, reasons of real necessity prompt it, another lay member of Christ’s faithful may also be delegated ... This function is to be understood strictly according to the name by which it is known, that is to say, that of extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, and not 'special minister of Holy Communion' nor extraordinary minister of the Eucharist nor 'special minister of the Eucharist', by which names the meaning of this function is unnecessarily and improperly broadened" (sections 154-156, bolding by me).
Redemptionis Sacramentum introduced no novelty. Official documents of the Catholic Church have long recommended the faithful, if they have the proper dispositions, to receive communion each time they participate in the Mass. An evident distinction is thus made: participation in the Eucharist in one sense is possible without participation in the other sense (the "meal" aspect).
"More widely known" is a matter of simple mathematics. Roman Catholics alone seem to be more than half the total of Christians. Add to them the Eastern Orthodox, which far outnumbers any Protestant Church you can think of, the Oriental Orthodox ...
"Rite" is a NPOV term that can be used with equal freedom by those who interpret the Eucharist minimally or maximally. People perform all sorts of rites, not all of them sacred or semi-sacred, such as blowing out the candles on a birthday cake. But to define the Eucharist as "communion" or "meal" is, some would think, to restrict its meaning and to exclude either implicitly or, as the "Terminology" section remarks, deliberately the further significance others do see in it. So these last two terms seem to me to be non-NPOV in this context and not really any more acceptable than would be the word "Mass".
The fact that "communion" has meanings quite distinct from the Eucharistic meaning (for instance in the phrase "full communion", or in 1 John 1:3) is a drawback, not an advantage.
"Eucharist" is an established term in ecumenical circles. It is used by the World Council of Churches, which many years ago brought out a document that had a very wide circulation. I no longer have the book with me, but I think it was called the BEM (Baptism, Eucharist, Ministry) document, giving maximalist and minimalist views on each. Indeed I think rather it was called the BEMA document, but I do not remember what the A stood for.
Lima 21:18, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
I beg leave to suggest that the present title of this article really belongs to the article at present titled Communion, Christian meaning and that the title of this article should revert to Eucharist.
Lima 11:40, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
User Michael Hardy's suggestion (at 20:18 yesterday) that the contents of Communion, Christian meaning be merged with this article is a further indication of how ambiguous the title "Communion (Christianity)" is. This title is, admittedly, followed by the statement,"This article is about a Christian sacrament", but very many (most?) people understand "Communion (Christianity)" to mean instead the bond that unites Christians always, even when not participating in the sacrament. This bond, a clearly distinct, even if somehow related, theme, is the topic of Communion, Christian meaning. Most users will have failed to notice the recent removal of the previous unambiguous title of the present article: the link Eucharist still points here, and the body of the article continues to use "Eucharist" and "Eucharistic" as the chief terms with which to refer to the sacrament or rite.
Lima 08:16, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
If we're talking about the rite itself and not the reception of the consecrated elements, then "Communion" is indeed more widely known as "Eucharist" based solely on the information given in the article. This being the preferred usage in Roman Catholic and Orthodox circles alone means that about 3/4 of all Christians use the terms in that way. What more reference is necessary? (That's an actual question, not rhetorical.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:40, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Please accept my apologies. I made the change in the text before seeing that a comment had been posted on the Talk page, accepting that the term "Eucharist" is in fact more common than "communion" for the rite described in the article.
Lima 07:25, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I would request that the references to the Anglican Church be placed under an entirely seperate heading, as opposed to being placed under the "Protestant" category. Anglicans are not technically Protestant. They consider themselves to be fully Catholic and fully reformed, and are therefore unique among groups. A more accurate grouping of Christian denominations would be "Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican/Episcopal, Protestant." The Anglican church, in all of her official documents, never identifies herself as protestant. -- Anonymous.
We have to define 'protestant' in an Anglican way. For Anglicans, protestant just means that we deny the authority of the bishop of Rome. In light of this definition, you could also say that the Eastern Church is protestant (though I would not recommend that, for they are not!). We would personally prefer not to be set under the umbrella of Protestantism, because we are truly the Via Media. If we are the bridge between Roman Catholic and Protestant, then it is impossible that we are fully one or the other. I think it would just solve a lot of confusion to list Anglicanism as a separate entity from Protestantism. (After all, there are many Anglicans who detest the name 'protestant,' and would find it highly offensive to be labeled as such. Thanks!
While the article covers quite a lot of ground, it only hints at the 'status' of the 'accidents' of the transubstantiation. A mention is made that 'catholics (...) offer adoration to the Eucharist'. Yet, during the communion, we are only in contact with the 'bread' for a short ammount of time - and the ritual of receiving the bread in itself if quite varied. For example, I've seen people:
Does anyone know what's the appropriate way? Also, this morning my 10 year old daughter had the ingenious idea to break the bread in half (probably copying what she saw the priest do), drawing looks of horror from the rest of the congregation. I must say I was myself quite horrified, but not sure why. Does anyone know if 'breaking' the bread post-transubstantiation is blaphemous? And dare I say, what is someone walked out with the Eucharist out of the church? Would it stay transubstantiated? Adidas 13:28, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Catholic and Orthodox teaching is clear and straightforward. After consecration by a validly ordained priest, what remains for a while on the altar, what is distributed to those who receive Communion, what is taken out of the church to the sick at home or in hospital, what is kept even for days in the tabernacle, is not bread. It is the body of Christ and should therefore be treated with the utmost respect, indeed with adoration. In themselves, none of the actions you describe are necessarily disrespectful, unless a people's culture or traditions classify them as such. The reactions to what your daughter did may perhaps indicate that her action did fall under such a classification. (Protestant teaching, in general, differs from this; the article suggests that Anglican teaching allows everyone to pick whatever belief they please.) Lima 17:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for this useful information Lima. Adidas 23:05, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The article has become messy, needs to be edited, with better referencing to related articles, some of which could be expanded with material from here. Also this could better summarise material in other articles - the material here compared to the Lutheran position on Real Presence is a good example. Paul foord 15:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Can someone tell me which ones don't use it?-- HistoricalPisces 18:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I am Anglican and while wine is the norm, some Anglican churches do offer grape juice in addition to wine (as an alternative for those who don't want alcoholic wine). Admittedly these are Anglican churches of the "low" or "evangelical" variety which might not be too common in the USA. I have read that both the USA and Canada lack a radically low-church Anglican tradition that is present pretty much everywhere else in the Anglican world. I suspect most middle to high (and ultra-high) Anglican/Episcopal churches (whether in North America or elsewhere) offer only wine. Apodeictic 02:01, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Lima, I really think this should be briefer. ISTM the place for a discussion this detailed is in Eucharistic theology, which obviously should be expanded to cover the whole range of theologies in more detail anyway. Here there should be nothing more than a brief summary for a "gross" comparison. If all the sections were to be as long as this, we'd have a very lengthy article. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I have looked at the Real Presence article for the first time, and I see that the false account of Catholic theology recently inserted in the Eucharist article was simply lifted from there, as was the description of Lutheran theology. I think the movement should be in opposite direction. Much of the Eucharist article should be moved to the Real Presence article. There is no point in having an article on the Real Presence, if its content is to be repeated in the Eucharist article.
The Eucharist article was/is a mess precisely because of treating of so many marginal things: minimal ritual questions such as explaining "piscina" and giving its synonyms(!); details of preparation for receiving the Eucharist/Holy Communion/communion etc. Questions of open/closed communion also have absolutely no place here. There is an ample article on each of them. (Indeed I do not see why there should be two articles on that single question, which would more suitably be dealt with in a single article.)
The essential function of an article on the Eucharist is to explain what the Eucharist is understood to be. In other words, it should give the theology of the Eucharist - why on earth has someone just started a needless duplicating article on the same matter? - leaving derivative and marginal matters for other articles. For Catholic theology, the Eucharist is much more than the Real Presence or Holy Communion. The Catechism of the Catholic Church devotes its sections 1322-1405 (84 sections) to the Eucharist; it treats of the Real Presence only in sections 1373-1381 (9 sections). Instead of distorting the Catholic idea of the Eucharist by limiting it to one aspect, it would be better to expand what others hold about the Eucharist as a whole. And, if they have little or no theology of the Eucharist (after all, Jews and Moslems have none), is that any reason why we should pretend that the Catholic Church has little or no theology of the Eucharist?
If I remember right, the article Mass (liturgy) refers the reader to the Eucharist article for the theology of the Eucharist. Do we direct the reader to an article that says absolutely nothing about what Catholics see as the sacrifice aspect of the Eucharist and instead speaks, as this one did for a while, of the Roman Catholic idea of the Eucharist as "transformation of the 'elements' through the work of the Holy Spirit at the time of consecration into 'gifts'"?! How come then the Roman-rite Mass has a "Prayer over the Gifts" before the Consecration? And don't we all transform all sorts of things into gifts when we present them to others?
I should perhaps apologize for that last paragraph. It is as marginal as many parts of the Eucharist article are. Nevertheless, I mention one more marginal matter: I did shorten the Roman Catholic section, omitting two paragraphs.
Lima 13:19, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the article is looking better, more concise. Still some more trimming to do. I think we cover the Roman Catholic view adequately, incidentally (at least in terms of length of the section)...there is a link provided to Transubstantiation for further particulars. Perhaps the "Summary" section can be cut in favor of a link to Eucharistic theologies contrasted, which covers pretty much the same thing. Also, a paragraph or two under the Roman Catholic liturgy section & the Protestant liturgy section (focusing on, I would assume, the BCP & the Lutherans) are needed. I personally think it really is looking more "cleaned up", less rambling and "all over the place", and more concise. KHM03 14:15, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Communion, Christian meaning article was created recently, I moved to Community (Christian) based on statement that it relates to koinonia κοινωνία maybe merge with Communion of Saints? Has cleanup and merge notices --> needs work. Paul foord 14:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
The name of the article that Paul foord renamed "Community (Christian)" has, long since, been corrected to "Communion (Christian)", a concept distinct from that of "Eucharist". Why does this article on the Eucharist carry an indication that it is part of a series denominated by the ambiguous word "Communion", when the articles in the series, and the symbols used to refer to the series, cover no meaning whatever of "Communion" other than that for which there exists the clear precise term "Eucharist", used in the title of this central article of the series?
Lima 10:28, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
As said above, the interpretation of Christian communion is that one day all Christians will celebrate their faith in unity with God. While the Eucharist is the partaking of the Holy Feast: The Body and Blood of Christ. (I am trying to not let my Catholic roots inject to many opinions.) To properly express the sacrament that Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Churches, etc. partake, the article title must be Eucharist. (THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN TAGGED FOREVER! PLEASE LETS GET PEOPLE BACK ON THE PROJECT). Trevor 17:41, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The use of the word accident in dicussing transubstantiation troubles me. While the Catholic Catechism uses the term in dicussing The Real Presence, I feel that the artice gives the term an unattained meaning; in which the transubstantiation is in itself an accident, or unattended. I propose that if the term, accident is to be kept, it must not refer to accident (philosophy). A possible redirect to a small article specificly dealing with the term in its Christian context? Trevor 18:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Somehow, in the process of moving one section to another or some other editing process, I seem to have deleted a big chunk of this article. For this, I apologize. Right now, I am too tired to figure out exactly what I did. If someone who is more of a nite owl than I can do so, please correct what I have done without simply reverting, since the latter would remove most, if not all, of my other edits, which are useful and appropriate. If not, I will take care of this sometime on Sunday. Again, I apologize. It was not my intention to do this. -- Midnite Critic 05:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Glad that's cleared up. Good edit overall. I disagree, though, with an idea that appears in a couple places in your text: you seem to see disbelief in Eucharistic adoration as inherently incompatible with the Real Presence doctrine. This is POV. There are some traditions (notably Lutheranism) which hold a doctrine of Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist while rejecting "adoration" of the consecrated elements. I deleted the comment about Calvin in this regard as POV. I left the Anglican one for the moment although I do think that also needs to be edited.-- Srleffler 06:50, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Do we really need this new category Category:Christian events, and if so, does Eucharist actually belong in it?-- Srleffler 23:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
The category is certainly needed for uncategorized, Christian events such as music festivals, crusades, awards, etc. However, the question should probably be, "Should the Eucharist be listed as a Christian event?" As it's obviously one, I don't see why not. What is it hurting? -- Jason Gastrich 23:52, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
This article seems to have many more links than my reading of WP:WEB indicates it should. I removed these ones as apparently being homepages, but I'm not sure how much need there is for any of them given the completeness of the article. I left in things like Emerson and Wesley's articles, but even they should arguably be moved to the articles on those people unless they are sources for this article.
[Unsigned comment by User:Just zis Guy, you know?
Hi again Guy. Why do you keep bringing up WP:WEB? That guideline is clearly not the standard for external links. WP:WEB defines whether a website is notable. Websites must be notable for there to be an entire Wikipedia article about that website. There is AFAIK no requirement anywhere that websites need be notable in order to be linked to in an "External links" section. If you know of such a requirement or recommendation, please post it.
Looking through the links, I agree that most of them are not useful enough to merit inclusion. Three of the links you deleted seem like they might be worth keeping, at a glance:
This is a complicated page, since it deals with the discrepant beliefs and practices of many different Christian sects, and attempts to document and compare those of each while maintaining NPOV. It seems useful to me on a page like this to have a large selection of external links and futher reading to provide more information relevant to each sect, as well as material comparing them. Links that themselves provide bibiographies for further research or material of historical interest seem useful.-- Srleffler 04:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
-- Srleffler 04:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I have reverted the attempt to move Anglicans out of the "Protestant" category, based on the dictionary definition and WP:NPOV. My copy of Concise Oxford defines Protestant as:
I would be fine with a note somewhere (perhaps on the Christianity page?), to the effect that some Anglicans (all Anglo-Catholics? Only some?) object to this. NPOV says that we document disagreements like this. We don't attempt to settle them here, and it is never acceptable to attempt to edit a point of view into Wikipedia as if it were the Truth. Protestant has a clear dictionary definition. Any attempt to implicitly redefine the meaning of the word here is POV. -- Srleffler 06:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, not all Protestants reject the episcopalian structure of the church (see Methodism). Also, Methodist Eucharistic theology is very close to Anglican Eucharistic theology (in fact, because of the Articles, they are close in most areas). There are other examples, of course. the point is that Methodism is Protestant. What defines Anglicanism as Protestant isn't its similarities to Roman Catholicism, but its history. It arose as a "protest" to Rome. It's a Protestant denomination...nothing wrong with that. To call it such is simply to agree with history (see English Reformation). KHM03 01:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
We can't ever settle this debate. Ever since the break from Rome there have been vastly different opinions held within Anglicanism as to its nature. Now if Anglicans themselves can't agree as to what Anglicanism is, how do we expect non-Anglicans to have any idea of what Anglicanism is?
We Anglicans all have "our" vision of Anglicanism and believe it to be the one true vision. This rift has grown even greater since the Oxford movement shattered the (loosely) protestant (yes protestant!) Anglican settlement. There are, quite simply put, mutually exclusive -- contradictory and irreconcilable -- visions of Anglicanism. You can't get a tractarian and an evangelical to agree on much except a vague agreement in a few doctrinal essentials and a shared dislike for theological liberalism. For the record I'm Anglican, fiercely Protestant (Reformed/Calvinist) and deeply offended NOT to be counted as protestant. I really don't care if papists think Anglicanism to be different from protestant. Having rejected the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome at the Reformation, we no longer have to bow to his (and his "ecclesial community's") opinion on whether we are protestant or not. In fact from a protestant point of view, the Roman evaluation is flawed but not far off the mark. Romanists emphasise ecclesiology over soteriology. Because Romanists like to see things in terms of ecclesiology of course they note a distinction between Anglicanism and other (continental) protestant churches. But it doesn't take a genius to realise that. You can be protestant and have no bishops or you can be protestant and have bishops -- supposed apostolic succession or not. So I have no scruples in defining Anglicanism as protestant. That is because soteriology is prior to ecclesiology for a Protestant; and Anglicanism teaches Reformed soteriology.
I have no scruples in defining Anglicanism as Protestant Reformed (not Lutheran, not Armninian -- but Reformed) in theology (the theology of the Westminster Confession is thoroughly Anglican); it is in its church structure that it is somewhere between Geneva and Rome. But for a true Protestant, this is adiaphora. As an evangelical Anglican I'm easy-going on episcopacy and Apostolic Succession. We have them as historical accidents (well I'm not sure that anyone can actually be 100% confident we have apostolic succession) but neither is essential to Christianity or indeed Anglicanism. Being a Geneva man I have a lot more in common with likeminded Christians in other denominations (eg Presbyterians) than I do with liberals or Romeward-leaning tractarians in my own denomination. In fact I think that Anglo-Catholics (if not blatantly disregarding them) twist the 39 Articles and the BCP beyond all recognition in trying to uphold their tractarian distinctives. But I'm sure they would beg to differ :-) So we have to do justice here on Wikipedia to the major views. Let the tractarians present their view of Anglicanism; let the evangelicals present theirs and let the liberals present theirs.
Who is to say that Newman's (in his pre-papist stage), Pusey's, Laud's or indeed Hooker's vision of Anglicanism is authentic? Why not Latimer, Ridley or Cranmer's? Or indeed the Puritans' and Westminster Divines'? They were Anglicans too.
Most of the articles referring to Anglicanism on Wikipedia (including the ones on the Lord's Supper andthe Real Presence) are very much Anglo-Catholic in POV and need to be revised to accommodate other visions of Anglicanism. You can't push tractarianism as Anglicanism and maintain a neutral POV. All the different POVs within Anglicanism deserve a fair hearing. Apodeictic 01:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)