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This interpretation of events is extremely POV. I am not an expert on the topic but as far as I know the line of events is comparable to that of the muneriads, and the action on part of Hungarians which triggered the violent backlash was a peaceful demonstration for language rights. Please someone more knowledgeable join in the discussion.-- Tamas 15:49, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I deleted the reference to "Hatvannégy Vármegye Ifjúsági Mozgalom, abbreviated: HVIM; Romanian: Mişcarea Tinerilor din cele 64 de Comitate), a virulent revisionist and irredentist Hungarian organization." because they had no role in the events whatsoever. Anyway, this organisation is insignificant, not supported by most Hungarians. One more point: if we want to compare revisionist, xeniphobic, or anti-semitic organisations in the two countries, there is the example of the Greater Romania Party with significant electorial support in the Romanian Parliament. -- KIDB 09:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC) + links:
The Western media was not involved in the events, they were only involved only in effecting international public opinion after the events. And I am afraid this public opinion is your main concern, not the balanced and neutral design of the article. -- KIDB 10:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that mentioning a small Hungarian extremist group, which had no role in the events is a good way to comment on a report of an international organisation.
My text you immediately reverted also included a Hungarian victim, but left every information on another Romanian victim unchanged. After your edit, the text has become a Romanian POW.--
KIDB
11:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'll put the victims' paragraph back and delete sentences from other places where the text in the new paragraph comes from - simple replacement of texts within the article. Please follow my edits with the History menu point.
But the other paragraph trying to explain the Human Rights Watch World Report should also be more balanced, also the reference to the irrelevant extremist organisation should be deleted, or placed into another article dealing with extremist groups. --
KIDB
12:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I am also looking forward to other editors' comments.-- KIDB 12:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry if you think that this article should become a list of extremist persons, from the two sides, who committed criminal acts during the clashes. I am not going to collect a list of Romanians who stormed the offices of the UDMR, and beaten the people trapped there, including the president of the organisation. The emphasis should be on a pure account of the two days, preferably written by independent international organisations, and on the possible reasons behind the clashes. If, instead of this, we create two long lists of cruelties and criminals of the Romanian and Hungarian communities, the reader will think that people living in the area are dangerous and wild natives with big knifes under their coats, ready to kill passing-by peaceful people.
The inclusion of the HVM by -Paul- shows, I think, an intention to prove that Hungarian extremists were behind the clashes. If you think, extremist organisations were involved,
Vatra Romaneasca had a bit more more influence on the events... If you do a little research on them with Google, you will find a couple of pieces of interesting information about their role. And if you think the international opinion is solely based on a video tape, you underestimate quite a lot of people and international organisations. This HVM reference is funny, if you positively wish to keep it, I will include its date of funding :-) --
KIDB
10:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry I don't understand Romanian but if you consider it to be an independent source, please feel free to summarise it in a couple of sentences and include it in the article. -- KIDB 14:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Romanian is Indo-European, anyway, I tried to read it. Does this paragraph mean that only one Romanian but 8 Hungarians were put in jail by the Romanian authorities? This would explain why the UDMR protested and Cseresznyés was let free by the president later. "In evenimentele din martie 1990 au murit cinci oameni, doi romani si trei maghiari. 278 de persoane au fost ranite. O biserica ortodoxa din judet a fost incendiata, iar sediile locale ale partidelor politice au fost vandalizate. 30 de persoane au fost trimise in judecata, iar alte 21 au cunoscut arestul preventiv, in cursul urmaririi penale. Printre cei inchisi au fost 12 tigani, opt maghiari si un roman. Pe 20 martie 2005, toate faptele s-au prescris." -- KIDB 16:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we at least establish: is Cofariu's first name properly Mihai or Mihăilă? I realize they are variants on the same name. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know the film was taken by an Irish TV Channel. The sentence originating from the Romanian myth "The tape was misleadingly broadcast by Hungarian television, pretending to depict the ethnic Magyars being beaten by the Romanian majority ..." is again propaganda against Hungarians. -- KIDB 12:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The MITH witch is mentioned above has a real fact: the first television airing the tape was DunaTV, including the comments, and most of the Western TV channels had only redistributed the tape from DunaTV, including the comments made by DunaTV as a real/correct description of the events(it was aired in 21August at the evening news - if I remember correctly) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.207.101.112 ( talk) 15:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Dpotop, HVIM has absolutely nothing to do with the events of 1990. It was founded more than a decade later. So it is completely unjustified to have a links about it on this page. It creates the false impression that this organization had a hand in the events of 1990, which is impossible, as it did not even exist. By adding more and more irrelevant stuff to this article, all we will achieve is that the article itself becomes useless, which is surely not good for Wikipedia.-- Tamas 12:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
This seems to be a neutral study on the events, I suggest to be included in the External links paragraph. Forget the title and read directly the description of the actual events in February-March 1990 (from page 14). It is quite obvious from this that the local police and central government did a very bad job. -- KIDB 14:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I've just read the first 16 pages of this document (that is, until page 11, using its own numbering), and it looks very much like a mild version of "Bad Romania" pro-hungarian propaganda. I suggest several other Romanians read this, and then we can start a discussion. I did not read the account of the Targu Mures events, yet. However, the source is not impartial. Actually, I find it outrageous. Dpotop 09:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
"That is generally accepted by scholars" Really? By whose scholars? If we may talk about the nationalism resurrection, we rather should talk about the Hungarians in Romania tendencies towards separatism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.76.65.78 ( talk) 14:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm an eye witness and I can confirm what is written in the Human Rights Watch World Report for 1990. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zmiklos ( talk • contribs) 23 Feb 2006.
Well... I lived those events and there are some things witch are "kept quiet" by "scholars". I'll share my view as my previous "eye witness". Starting with the fact that 1989 was one year of changes in Romania and for Hungarian minority was a "historical chance" to regain the autonomy and why not the independence from Romania. I don't want to insist in debating animosities between Romanian and Hungarians, as this subject may cover hundred of pages, but I only want to notice some events prior to 20th March: a) December '89 on Hargita/Covasna/Mures has leaded to victims, but only Romanian officers were killed during the "'89 revolution" (please note that the police-MILITIA of that time- was formed also from Hungarian ethnic people but none of them was badly injured) b) the increase nationalistic rhetoric of Hungarian extremists in the first months of year 1990 has raised fears in the Romanian majority - just read the newspapers c) forced separation of the classes in the schools - to explain : at that moment, you had the choice to follow Hungarian classes or Romanian ones in the school - classes were your primary language was Romanian or Hungarian - and suddenly in January, at the beginning of the second semester - all Hungarian people has refused to attempt to any other class in Romanian, even if they decided to go to Romanian classes. I really doubt that one 15 year kid has such great patriotism in his blood, at that age, to take such actions by themselves! In order to calm the situation, in all schools/high-schools were created separated classes even there was no low to approve this!(In my vision it's like America '60 segregation' - the law was created years after!) d) Social separation of the Hungarians from Romanians: friends, colleagues have become separated, as Hungarian decided to tied up the links between them and to refuse to speak anymore Romanian language - for a Latin based language speaker, Hungarian language is difficult to learn so many Romanians know only some basics of it f) preparations for the events of 20th march - in some state owned factories, some extremist has started manufacturing hand weapons(knives, swords axes,metallic balls, etc)(I have this information from some family friends and this info were disclosed prior to events - I can detail if necessary). Also the fact that in 21th March when the army has virtually blocked/isolated the city, on most of the entries in the cities hand weapons were confiscated form "participants"(even firearms)- for example at the exit to Corunca(toward Brasov), one army track was filled of hand weapons confiscated in only 5 hours e) the number of Hungarian ethnics participants to this events(3:1) has denoted also some high degree of preparation. The involvement of medical staff in supporting only one side(Hungarian) can be put also on discussion(ambulances carrying stones, weapons,etc...) There are more "preparing" events - the Journals/newspapers published at that time, specially the ones from Targu Mures and doesn't matter the language, can give you the idea of suspicions and worries between Romanian and Hungarians at that time! I leave the scholars to analyze and debate them. You may check the corresponding article in Romanian version of Wikipedia for more details of those events. For the start of the events I blame the Hungarians, as I witnessed personally the "trigger" : everything started from a pharmacy on witch the manager(Hungarian ethnic) has decided to replace the Romanian words for Pharmacy painted on the windows, with Hungarian Ones. This has generated the street people protests(Romanian of course) and on top of it some Hungarian extremist has displayed also a big map(hand drawn) of the Great Hungary. This was the moment when everything went to madness!!! Now, after so many years, I see all those events only as one failed attempt or bad managed attempt of Hungarian minority to gain some rights. All the rights(except ethnic autonomy) were granted over the time to all minorities in Romania, not only to Hungarians. Considering the law, Romania has the most permissive minorities laws in Easter Europe(Hungary is far beyond us, if we consider strictly Romanian minority). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmtro ( talk • contribs) 11:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
PLEASE READ THIS! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.3.30.130 ( talk) 09:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, "Eye whithess", you state a lot of opinions. In what way is it fact? You claim that you've whitnessed romanians protesting against a hungarian pharmacy sign - which is, I might add a freedom of expression from the pharmacist side, but fail to recall the fact that these ethnic romanians were drunk and also that an ethnic romanian driver drove his car into the crowd and the fact that the romanian media than claimed the driver being ethnic hungarian. You also state that romanian minority laws are one of the most permissive in Europe - clearly you haven't got an idea about minority laws in Europe. In Sweden the lapp minority (the original ethnic group in their area, much like the szekler minority in Transsylvania) has its own parliment, own rights; lapps are 0,5% of the swedish population (there are a 6,5% hungarian minority in Romania). Even the 5000 people of roma are "national minority", wheres the 1,3 million hungarians in Romania is not. In Hungary the 8000 romanians are also "national minority", they have their own autonomic council. In Finland, the swedish minority has an own brigade in the finnish army. The authonomy of szeklers has been promised to them in Alba lulia in 1918, in the very document, that is the judical base of the romanian claim for Transsylvania (since the treaty of Trianon was signed by the Kingdom of Hungary, and the Kingdom of Romania and those countries are no longer exist, the treaty is also non in void), the szekler minority just want romanian legislation to honour the promise of thier forefathers.
Maybe the swedish minority in Finlad has its own brigade, but to whom do they pledge allegiance? To Finlald, or Sweden? -Paul- ( talk) 01:05, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Just by looking at a map the claim of "szekler independence" can be dismissed; it would be an "island - state" within romania, just like West Berlin. Not a scenario the Szekler minority wishes.
"eye whitness" claims that; "...the police-MILITIA of that time- was formed also from Hungarian ethnic people but none of them was badly injured." So how many high ranking, or even low ranking officers were ethnic Hungarians? The likely explanation why none of them was badly injured, is that they were so hard to find. It is in the interest of romanian leadership to keep hungarians out from armed personel affiliations. How many hungarian police officers are there in the counties that have 75% ethnic hungarian majority?
It gets better; "the increase nationalistic rhetoric of Hungarian extremists in the first months of year 1990 has raised fears in the Romanian majority - just read the newspapers". Yes, I did, and the involvment of Vatra Românească is in no way debated by mr "Eye whitness". The meeting in Alba lulia, where Vatra Românească agitated the romanians with chauvinistic ideas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.58.124.81 ( talk) 07:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Also, there is no trace in your argumentation about the ethnic flooding Targu Mures was subjected to; how ethnic romanians are moved in in order to shift the ethnic balance. Neighter the number of hungarians were forced to leave the area. Since 1990 some 400,000 hungarians have moved from Transsylvania, hungarians are beaten by ethnic romanians every week, just for speaking hungarian!
This "Eye Whitness" report is eihter false or at least biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.3.30.130 ( talk) 08:10, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi, should this article be moved to Ethnic clashes in Târgu Mureş? I think this is more the English convention. Also, there are still some POV issues, and slight issues with language which I will attempt to fix... ethnics on its own tends to have a pejorative usage in English (well, at least English English). - FrancisTyers 18:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence was cut April 10, 2006 by FrancisTyers ( talk · contribs) with the unrevealing summary "some fixes": "One of the perpetrators, ethnic Hungarian Pal Cseresznyes, was tried, convicted, and sentenced to 10 years in prison, but was released in 1996 by Romanian president Emil Constantinescu, as an act of reconciliation." - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"…leading to several severe injuries and casualties": injuries are casualties. What do you mean to say here? - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Fz22, we'll stick to the chronological order then, when listing the emblematic victims. Alexrap 14:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
A "totallydisputed" tag has been inserted at the beginning of this article (by user Fz22). To me, the article is pretty NPOV, but if some people think it is not, then we could probably improve it by having a discussion in here. Alexrap 14:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello, where did you take the 46% Romanian and 51% Hungarian figures? Which census? Dpotop 20:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually I would say that is a great number of romanian people that believe that the entire hate campaign on both sides was planned and executed by the Romanian govt. in order to justify the founding of SRI (Romanian Security Service) after the disbanding of the dreaded Securitate.
A strong enough reason was needed to convince the romanian population of the need for such an institution that would directly inherit the arsenal and modus operandi of the recently outlawed Securitate. So, naturally the "Hungarians want to take away Transylvania" was chosen. Instigators and media were used in the same manner as in the Mineriade in Bucuresti. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandruromania ( talk • contribs) 09:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
You can't discuss the events on March 1990 without considering some facts which happened before.
Only little more than 3 months have passed since the December '98 revolution and what happened during those three months in the area is key to the events in March 1990. Those were times of great unrest and the tension between Romanians and Hungarians was steadily increasing. TVR (Romanian national television) correspondent in that area was Dan Suciu (apparently with his colleague of Hungarian ethnicity, Dominik Füzesi). Dan Suciu wrote in his diary the events between December 1989 – April 1990 and fragments of his diary have been published and commented in several newspapers and journals (in Romanian).
Some details in his diary might shed more light to the tension buildup from January to March. Romanian symbols have been removed or profaned (from text signs to national hero statues such as Nicolae Bălcescu or Avram Iancu) throughout Transylvania, there were various declarations (of Hungarian ethnic politicians, and even of the Hungarian ambassador taking about the Hungarian "population" in Transylvania) and then there was the request of the Hungarian ethnics to segregate the public education system on ethic bases. The tension reached a peak on March 15th, when in some areas the Hungarian ethics started celebrating Hungary's national day with Hungary's flags and national anthem. Traveling from Miercurea Ciuc to Ciumani, Suciu reports seeing hundreds of Hungarian flags on houses, all looking identically in size and aspect. On March 16th, a pharmacy seller refuses to sell to a Romanian speaker and a crowd of Romanians starts gathering and protesting. During the same evening, a car is driven directly into a group of Romanians protesters, injuring 14. The driver runs, but his car was set on fire. On March 17th, Dan Suciu and Adrian Popescu, a Reuters photo reporter, ask the local police about the above incident. They find out the author was Hungarian ethnic Nagy Samuel who apologizes, saying he was drank. They also find out there was another car who was chasing Romanians.
Also, an interesting fact - one day before the main events, Irish journalist Gary Honeyford came to Grand Hotel and insisting for a room with street view. Dan Suciu obtained a copy of the hotel records for that day.
http://www.ziaristionline.ro/2011/03/20/dorin-suciu-ziaristul-care-a-documentat-masacrul-romanilor-de-la-targu-mures-post-scriptum-la-o-manipulare-maghiara/
Some links with Dan Suciu's diary pages: http://www.napocanews.ro/2010/03/corespondentul-tvr-dorin-suciu-despre-revolutie-si-incidentele-din-martie-1990-de-la-tg-mures.html http://www.napocanews.ro/2010/03/razboaiele-de-imagine-anti-romania-dorin-suciu-despre-%E2%80%9Epogromul%E2%80%9D-de-la-targu-mures-%E2%80%9Cadevarul%E2%80%9D-propaga-minciuna-prin-gurile-unor-borbely-pirvulescu-haller-si-szobot.html http://adevarul.ro/news/eveniment/exclusiv-culisele-manipularii-conflictului-romano-maghiar-20-martie-1990-1_50ad49937c42d5a663924d61/index.html http://www.ziaristionline.ro/2011/03/20/dorin-suciu-ziaristul-care-a-documentat-masacrul-romanilor-de-la-targu-mures-post-scriptum-la-o-manipulare-maghiara/ http://jurnalul.ro/stire-special/post-scriptum-la-o-manipulare-539245.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jJDqbeDZ3c http://www.evz.ro/detalii/stiri/rusii-nu-sunt-interesati-de-nabucco-889590.html
During the past 24 years, almost every year but especially close to March 15th (the Hungary's National day) the Hungarian ethnics or the szekely provoke and incite to ethinc tension.
2010: Bilingual city signpost for Miercurea Ciuc is vandalized, with the Romanian text coverd with szekely script:
http://tanasadan.blogspot.ro/2010/09/sovinii-secui-lovesc-din-nou-inscriptia.html
March 2011: Avram Iancu (puppet impersonating him) was hanged by a Hungarian extremist. Several Democratic Union of Hungarians (UDMR) leaders take an oath of allegiance to Hungary. http://www.gandul.info/reportaj/ziua-maghiarilor-un-extremist-l-a-spanzurat-pe-avram-iancu-la-miercurea-ciuc-mai-multi-lideri-udmr-au-depus-juramantul-de-credinta-fata-de-ungaria-video-8063485 http://www.antena3.ro/romania/papusa-ce-il-reprezinta-pe-avram-iancu-spanzurata-la-mircurea-ciuc-120663.html
Mai 2012: Avram Iancu Memorial House set fire with Molotov cocktails.
http://a1.ro/news/social/video-targu-mures-casa-memoriala-avram-iancu-incendiata.html
2013: A Romanian girl received a death threat and racist injuries because she was wearing at school a head band in Romania's flag colors, on Hungary's national day.
Also other journalists receive death threats via Facebook because show their support.
http://www.dantanasa.ro/2013/03/24/sponsor-of-hockey-club-makes-death-threat-to-jurnalist-and-15-years-old-pupil/
Just because you make your voice lauder, doesn't mean it makes you any more right. :)
-Paul- (
talk)
00:59, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
http://adevarul.ro/news/societate/linsarea-maiorului-aurel-agache-1_50ad810c7c42d5a663966068/index.html http://adevarul.ro/news/societate/femeia--invins-iadul-1_50ad715b7c42d5a663953dcb/index.html http://adevarul.ro/news/societate/o-zi-viata-unui-criminal-revolutie-1_50ad7c287c42d5a663960a11/index.html There were casualties amongst "Militia" in other areas of the country, but they were shot (usually by snipers or plain clothed aggressors): http://www.dantanasa.ro/2012/12/24/dionise-aurel-agache-cum-a-fost-ucis-tatal-meu-decembrie-negru-o-tragedie-romaneasca-din-targu-secuiesc-de-la-revolutia-din-1989/ Only in the areas with a large Hungarian minority (or a "minority majority") they were usually beaten to death: Liviu Cheuchişan, beaten to death in front of his wife and two kids; linching of Aurel Agache in Târgu Secuiesc (Kézdivásárhely / Szekler Neumarkt) are just two examples. -Paul- ( talk) 14:04, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
A while back, I started writing the German article about these clashes. I used this and the Hungarian article as a base and did own searches as well that led to more sources and more details. As you can see, I also provided a couple of images more (which is never a bad thing). As I don't speak Romanian, I couldn't come up with Romanian sources, just kept those that were already given. If there is desire for this, I could provide a translation that could be used to improve the English version. I mean, in no ways will the reader get an idea what was actually going on there back then. Watch a youtube video with original material and you'll see what I mean. If we would update the English article, it could lead to a further improvement of the German article as well as more Romanian input could be used. In any case, I'd like to recommend Kincses' book Black Spring which is also translated to English as well as Király's blog. I'm curious to see your opinions about my suggestion. SüsüASárkány ( talk) 17:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I respectfully ask all the editors to stop adding unsourced material Raysdiet ( talk) 19:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The official page of some institution (school in this case) is reliable enough. The problem is if the data isn`t there. User:Koertefa can you please check this sources if there is this data there? Adrian ( talk) 11:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree, a background section would be good information to this article. Adrian ( talk) 19:43, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't look fine at all. There are Hungarians living in Satu Mare, Oradea, Arad, Timisora etc., important cities of Transylvania hundreds of kilometers away from Targu Mures. Targu Mures besides being an important city for all the Hungarians living in Transylvania, it is and has been first and foremost a cultural and historical center of Székely Land. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 13:38, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
it is relevant and thus justified to mention that "Targu Mures (Marosvásárhely)/The town is a (/one of the) cultural and historical center(s) of Székely Land" at the beginning of the lead along with the other localizations. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 15:04, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
My proposal is keeping the existing version as it is. Raysdiet wants to remove the statement that Targu Mures is "one of the historical and cultural centers of Székely Land" which I think is factual, relevant and important: Since
it is relevant and thus justified to mention that Targu Mures is "one of the historical and cultural centers of Székely Land" at the beginning of the lead section, after the other localizations of Targu Mures (Transylvania, Romania). I don't see any objective reasons (bias, lack of relevance etc.) for removing this statement from the lead section.-- Rob.HUN ( talk) 20:25, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Conclusion: In your points you have not enumerated not a single argument why would your proposal be valid. Nobody is saying that Targu Mures was not important in history for the Szekely Land but today this kind of info is not for the lead. I still think that the best solution is to create a new section and write all the history behind it(as you stated "the root cause of the events"). Adrian ( talk) 21:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
thus the statement gives the events and Targu Mures their precise context and connection without bloating the lead section with details. Isn't that what the lead section is for? I think it is relevant and important to have the connection of Targu Mures and Székely Land stated: Targu Mures would not be a major center for the Hungarian population if it wasn't a center of Székely Land. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 22:31, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
I hope I explained it, so let`s keep it simple. Political structures that doesn`t exist anymore can`t be used as a valid designation for a location. Simple as that. Adrian ( talk) 11:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
If the concern about a possibility of misunderstanding the political status of Székely Land is the genuine and sincere cause of Adrian's and Raysdiet's objectian, here is the most explicit version imaginable:
If there is going to be a consensus, maybe there should be a section enumerating common sense versions of the lead and decide on one of them. This thread is to complicated to read all and follow(I personally don`t even know who agrees on what) and a new section with the proposals would be great. Adrian ( talk) 16:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Also please bare in mind that other articles on wikipedia does not have this kind of information in the lead. Historical facts are reserved for the history section. According to the practice on wikipedia, this kind of info is not recommended for the lead. Also the current Targu Mures article does not contain this info in the lead, why should this article do? Adrian ( talk) 00:29, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I propose renaming 'The casualties' section 'Casualties'. There has been a dispute over the "but no ethnic Romanians were put to trial" part. I couldn't find any references for ethnic Romanians ever having been convicted or at least brought to trial in connection with the events. Since it was an ethnic conflict with victims on both sides it is important to take note of the legal consequences - or lack of - on both sides as well. I also propose mentioning the three Hungarian dead first on basis of the higher count. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 09:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
"According to this source 2+7 according to that source 2+12." Fakirbakir ( talk) 20:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
"Any source?" Are you suggesting Raysdiet, that the Romanina court prosecuted and convicted Roma people on false charges in show trials? -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 21:43, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
It is a fact the Roma joined to the Hungarians in the attack against the Romanians. Fakirbakir ( talk) 21:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
...for one week to stop edit-warring. If the dispute cannot be resolved here within a day or two, please invoke WP:Dispute resolution. JohnCD ( talk) 10:42, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Much of the text referring him ("the Hungarian writer András Sütő was seriously beaten when ethnic Romanians attacked the offices of the Democratic Union of Hungarians (UDMR). With several bones broken and his eyes injured he was carried to the Bucharest Military Hospital, then, later, by a military aircraft to Budapest, Hungary,") cannot be found in the provided source, namely http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402032.html which only affirms "In March 1990, Mr. Suto was nearly beaten to death and lost an eye during clashes between Romanians and ethnic Hungarians in the Romanian city of Tirgu Mures after Ceausescu was ousted in December 1989." Raysdiet ( talk) 07:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Some facts about the events here [23]. Fakirbakir ( talk) 12:56, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I was wondering how does a Romanian understand this expression: 1. as a national celebration of the Hungarian state 2. as a national celebration recognized by the Hungarian state.-- Rob.HUN ( talk) 19:44, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Raysdiet created a new section, The Events and heavily expanded it with Romaninan media reports. Since the role of the media is highly controversial in this event, please provide third party/scholarly sources when adding information. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 09:19, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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A well sourced material was removed without any proper discussion. [24] "Because I do not like it" opinion can not be proper reasoning. If somebody does not agree with the content he or she will have to improve the article and find other sources for the sake of factual accuracy instead of thoughtless reverting. Fakirbakir ( talk) 11:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Rob.HUN also removed my well sourced material without any proper discussion [26] Raysdiet ( talk) 12:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Can we please decide how we want this article changed and not simply wait for the protection to expire and the whole edit warring nonsense to begin again. Please say what you want changed, why, and with WP:RSs to back up your proposed change. RashersTierney ( talk) 21:34, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
What does exactly a scholary work mean in this context? It is just about being an objective observer of the events. Are there people specialized in being witnesses? Hh2013 ( talk) 18:55, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
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This interpretation of events is extremely POV. I am not an expert on the topic but as far as I know the line of events is comparable to that of the muneriads, and the action on part of Hungarians which triggered the violent backlash was a peaceful demonstration for language rights. Please someone more knowledgeable join in the discussion.-- Tamas 15:49, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I deleted the reference to "Hatvannégy Vármegye Ifjúsági Mozgalom, abbreviated: HVIM; Romanian: Mişcarea Tinerilor din cele 64 de Comitate), a virulent revisionist and irredentist Hungarian organization." because they had no role in the events whatsoever. Anyway, this organisation is insignificant, not supported by most Hungarians. One more point: if we want to compare revisionist, xeniphobic, or anti-semitic organisations in the two countries, there is the example of the Greater Romania Party with significant electorial support in the Romanian Parliament. -- KIDB 09:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC) + links:
The Western media was not involved in the events, they were only involved only in effecting international public opinion after the events. And I am afraid this public opinion is your main concern, not the balanced and neutral design of the article. -- KIDB 10:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that mentioning a small Hungarian extremist group, which had no role in the events is a good way to comment on a report of an international organisation.
My text you immediately reverted also included a Hungarian victim, but left every information on another Romanian victim unchanged. After your edit, the text has become a Romanian POW.--
KIDB
11:01, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'll put the victims' paragraph back and delete sentences from other places where the text in the new paragraph comes from - simple replacement of texts within the article. Please follow my edits with the History menu point.
But the other paragraph trying to explain the Human Rights Watch World Report should also be more balanced, also the reference to the irrelevant extremist organisation should be deleted, or placed into another article dealing with extremist groups. --
KIDB
12:04, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I am also looking forward to other editors' comments.-- KIDB 12:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry if you think that this article should become a list of extremist persons, from the two sides, who committed criminal acts during the clashes. I am not going to collect a list of Romanians who stormed the offices of the UDMR, and beaten the people trapped there, including the president of the organisation. The emphasis should be on a pure account of the two days, preferably written by independent international organisations, and on the possible reasons behind the clashes. If, instead of this, we create two long lists of cruelties and criminals of the Romanian and Hungarian communities, the reader will think that people living in the area are dangerous and wild natives with big knifes under their coats, ready to kill passing-by peaceful people.
The inclusion of the HVM by -Paul- shows, I think, an intention to prove that Hungarian extremists were behind the clashes. If you think, extremist organisations were involved,
Vatra Romaneasca had a bit more more influence on the events... If you do a little research on them with Google, you will find a couple of pieces of interesting information about their role. And if you think the international opinion is solely based on a video tape, you underestimate quite a lot of people and international organisations. This HVM reference is funny, if you positively wish to keep it, I will include its date of funding :-) --
KIDB
10:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry I don't understand Romanian but if you consider it to be an independent source, please feel free to summarise it in a couple of sentences and include it in the article. -- KIDB 14:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC) Romanian is Indo-European, anyway, I tried to read it. Does this paragraph mean that only one Romanian but 8 Hungarians were put in jail by the Romanian authorities? This would explain why the UDMR protested and Cseresznyés was let free by the president later. "In evenimentele din martie 1990 au murit cinci oameni, doi romani si trei maghiari. 278 de persoane au fost ranite. O biserica ortodoxa din judet a fost incendiata, iar sediile locale ale partidelor politice au fost vandalizate. 30 de persoane au fost trimise in judecata, iar alte 21 au cunoscut arestul preventiv, in cursul urmaririi penale. Printre cei inchisi au fost 12 tigani, opt maghiari si un roman. Pe 20 martie 2005, toate faptele s-au prescris." -- KIDB 16:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Can we at least establish: is Cofariu's first name properly Mihai or Mihăilă? I realize they are variants on the same name. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know the film was taken by an Irish TV Channel. The sentence originating from the Romanian myth "The tape was misleadingly broadcast by Hungarian television, pretending to depict the ethnic Magyars being beaten by the Romanian majority ..." is again propaganda against Hungarians. -- KIDB 12:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The MITH witch is mentioned above has a real fact: the first television airing the tape was DunaTV, including the comments, and most of the Western TV channels had only redistributed the tape from DunaTV, including the comments made by DunaTV as a real/correct description of the events(it was aired in 21August at the evening news - if I remember correctly) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.207.101.112 ( talk) 15:19, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Dear Dpotop, HVIM has absolutely nothing to do with the events of 1990. It was founded more than a decade later. So it is completely unjustified to have a links about it on this page. It creates the false impression that this organization had a hand in the events of 1990, which is impossible, as it did not even exist. By adding more and more irrelevant stuff to this article, all we will achieve is that the article itself becomes useless, which is surely not good for Wikipedia.-- Tamas 12:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
This seems to be a neutral study on the events, I suggest to be included in the External links paragraph. Forget the title and read directly the description of the actual events in February-March 1990 (from page 14). It is quite obvious from this that the local police and central government did a very bad job. -- KIDB 14:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I've just read the first 16 pages of this document (that is, until page 11, using its own numbering), and it looks very much like a mild version of "Bad Romania" pro-hungarian propaganda. I suggest several other Romanians read this, and then we can start a discussion. I did not read the account of the Targu Mures events, yet. However, the source is not impartial. Actually, I find it outrageous. Dpotop 09:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
"That is generally accepted by scholars" Really? By whose scholars? If we may talk about the nationalism resurrection, we rather should talk about the Hungarians in Romania tendencies towards separatism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.76.65.78 ( talk) 14:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm an eye witness and I can confirm what is written in the Human Rights Watch World Report for 1990. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zmiklos ( talk • contribs) 23 Feb 2006.
Well... I lived those events and there are some things witch are "kept quiet" by "scholars". I'll share my view as my previous "eye witness". Starting with the fact that 1989 was one year of changes in Romania and for Hungarian minority was a "historical chance" to regain the autonomy and why not the independence from Romania. I don't want to insist in debating animosities between Romanian and Hungarians, as this subject may cover hundred of pages, but I only want to notice some events prior to 20th March: a) December '89 on Hargita/Covasna/Mures has leaded to victims, but only Romanian officers were killed during the "'89 revolution" (please note that the police-MILITIA of that time- was formed also from Hungarian ethnic people but none of them was badly injured) b) the increase nationalistic rhetoric of Hungarian extremists in the first months of year 1990 has raised fears in the Romanian majority - just read the newspapers c) forced separation of the classes in the schools - to explain : at that moment, you had the choice to follow Hungarian classes or Romanian ones in the school - classes were your primary language was Romanian or Hungarian - and suddenly in January, at the beginning of the second semester - all Hungarian people has refused to attempt to any other class in Romanian, even if they decided to go to Romanian classes. I really doubt that one 15 year kid has such great patriotism in his blood, at that age, to take such actions by themselves! In order to calm the situation, in all schools/high-schools were created separated classes even there was no low to approve this!(In my vision it's like America '60 segregation' - the law was created years after!) d) Social separation of the Hungarians from Romanians: friends, colleagues have become separated, as Hungarian decided to tied up the links between them and to refuse to speak anymore Romanian language - for a Latin based language speaker, Hungarian language is difficult to learn so many Romanians know only some basics of it f) preparations for the events of 20th march - in some state owned factories, some extremist has started manufacturing hand weapons(knives, swords axes,metallic balls, etc)(I have this information from some family friends and this info were disclosed prior to events - I can detail if necessary). Also the fact that in 21th March when the army has virtually blocked/isolated the city, on most of the entries in the cities hand weapons were confiscated form "participants"(even firearms)- for example at the exit to Corunca(toward Brasov), one army track was filled of hand weapons confiscated in only 5 hours e) the number of Hungarian ethnics participants to this events(3:1) has denoted also some high degree of preparation. The involvement of medical staff in supporting only one side(Hungarian) can be put also on discussion(ambulances carrying stones, weapons,etc...) There are more "preparing" events - the Journals/newspapers published at that time, specially the ones from Targu Mures and doesn't matter the language, can give you the idea of suspicions and worries between Romanian and Hungarians at that time! I leave the scholars to analyze and debate them. You may check the corresponding article in Romanian version of Wikipedia for more details of those events. For the start of the events I blame the Hungarians, as I witnessed personally the "trigger" : everything started from a pharmacy on witch the manager(Hungarian ethnic) has decided to replace the Romanian words for Pharmacy painted on the windows, with Hungarian Ones. This has generated the street people protests(Romanian of course) and on top of it some Hungarian extremist has displayed also a big map(hand drawn) of the Great Hungary. This was the moment when everything went to madness!!! Now, after so many years, I see all those events only as one failed attempt or bad managed attempt of Hungarian minority to gain some rights. All the rights(except ethnic autonomy) were granted over the time to all minorities in Romania, not only to Hungarians. Considering the law, Romania has the most permissive minorities laws in Easter Europe(Hungary is far beyond us, if we consider strictly Romanian minority). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmtro ( talk • contribs) 11:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
PLEASE READ THIS! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.3.30.130 ( talk) 09:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, "Eye whithess", you state a lot of opinions. In what way is it fact? You claim that you've whitnessed romanians protesting against a hungarian pharmacy sign - which is, I might add a freedom of expression from the pharmacist side, but fail to recall the fact that these ethnic romanians were drunk and also that an ethnic romanian driver drove his car into the crowd and the fact that the romanian media than claimed the driver being ethnic hungarian. You also state that romanian minority laws are one of the most permissive in Europe - clearly you haven't got an idea about minority laws in Europe. In Sweden the lapp minority (the original ethnic group in their area, much like the szekler minority in Transsylvania) has its own parliment, own rights; lapps are 0,5% of the swedish population (there are a 6,5% hungarian minority in Romania). Even the 5000 people of roma are "national minority", wheres the 1,3 million hungarians in Romania is not. In Hungary the 8000 romanians are also "national minority", they have their own autonomic council. In Finland, the swedish minority has an own brigade in the finnish army. The authonomy of szeklers has been promised to them in Alba lulia in 1918, in the very document, that is the judical base of the romanian claim for Transsylvania (since the treaty of Trianon was signed by the Kingdom of Hungary, and the Kingdom of Romania and those countries are no longer exist, the treaty is also non in void), the szekler minority just want romanian legislation to honour the promise of thier forefathers.
Maybe the swedish minority in Finlad has its own brigade, but to whom do they pledge allegiance? To Finlald, or Sweden? -Paul- ( talk) 01:05, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Just by looking at a map the claim of "szekler independence" can be dismissed; it would be an "island - state" within romania, just like West Berlin. Not a scenario the Szekler minority wishes.
"eye whitness" claims that; "...the police-MILITIA of that time- was formed also from Hungarian ethnic people but none of them was badly injured." So how many high ranking, or even low ranking officers were ethnic Hungarians? The likely explanation why none of them was badly injured, is that they were so hard to find. It is in the interest of romanian leadership to keep hungarians out from armed personel affiliations. How many hungarian police officers are there in the counties that have 75% ethnic hungarian majority?
It gets better; "the increase nationalistic rhetoric of Hungarian extremists in the first months of year 1990 has raised fears in the Romanian majority - just read the newspapers". Yes, I did, and the involvment of Vatra Românească is in no way debated by mr "Eye whitness". The meeting in Alba lulia, where Vatra Românească agitated the romanians with chauvinistic ideas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.58.124.81 ( talk) 07:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Also, there is no trace in your argumentation about the ethnic flooding Targu Mures was subjected to; how ethnic romanians are moved in in order to shift the ethnic balance. Neighter the number of hungarians were forced to leave the area. Since 1990 some 400,000 hungarians have moved from Transsylvania, hungarians are beaten by ethnic romanians every week, just for speaking hungarian!
This "Eye Whitness" report is eihter false or at least biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.3.30.130 ( talk) 08:10, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi, should this article be moved to Ethnic clashes in Târgu Mureş? I think this is more the English convention. Also, there are still some POV issues, and slight issues with language which I will attempt to fix... ethnics on its own tends to have a pejorative usage in English (well, at least English English). - FrancisTyers 18:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence was cut April 10, 2006 by FrancisTyers ( talk · contribs) with the unrevealing summary "some fixes": "One of the perpetrators, ethnic Hungarian Pal Cseresznyes, was tried, convicted, and sentenced to 10 years in prison, but was released in 1996 by Romanian president Emil Constantinescu, as an act of reconciliation." - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
"…leading to several severe injuries and casualties": injuries are casualties. What do you mean to say here? - Jmabel | Talk 04:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Fz22, we'll stick to the chronological order then, when listing the emblematic victims. Alexrap 14:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
A "totallydisputed" tag has been inserted at the beginning of this article (by user Fz22). To me, the article is pretty NPOV, but if some people think it is not, then we could probably improve it by having a discussion in here. Alexrap 14:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello, where did you take the 46% Romanian and 51% Hungarian figures? Which census? Dpotop 20:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually I would say that is a great number of romanian people that believe that the entire hate campaign on both sides was planned and executed by the Romanian govt. in order to justify the founding of SRI (Romanian Security Service) after the disbanding of the dreaded Securitate.
A strong enough reason was needed to convince the romanian population of the need for such an institution that would directly inherit the arsenal and modus operandi of the recently outlawed Securitate. So, naturally the "Hungarians want to take away Transylvania" was chosen. Instigators and media were used in the same manner as in the Mineriade in Bucuresti. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandruromania ( talk • contribs) 09:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
You can't discuss the events on March 1990 without considering some facts which happened before.
Only little more than 3 months have passed since the December '98 revolution and what happened during those three months in the area is key to the events in March 1990. Those were times of great unrest and the tension between Romanians and Hungarians was steadily increasing. TVR (Romanian national television) correspondent in that area was Dan Suciu (apparently with his colleague of Hungarian ethnicity, Dominik Füzesi). Dan Suciu wrote in his diary the events between December 1989 – April 1990 and fragments of his diary have been published and commented in several newspapers and journals (in Romanian).
Some details in his diary might shed more light to the tension buildup from January to March. Romanian symbols have been removed or profaned (from text signs to national hero statues such as Nicolae Bălcescu or Avram Iancu) throughout Transylvania, there were various declarations (of Hungarian ethnic politicians, and even of the Hungarian ambassador taking about the Hungarian "population" in Transylvania) and then there was the request of the Hungarian ethnics to segregate the public education system on ethic bases. The tension reached a peak on March 15th, when in some areas the Hungarian ethics started celebrating Hungary's national day with Hungary's flags and national anthem. Traveling from Miercurea Ciuc to Ciumani, Suciu reports seeing hundreds of Hungarian flags on houses, all looking identically in size and aspect. On March 16th, a pharmacy seller refuses to sell to a Romanian speaker and a crowd of Romanians starts gathering and protesting. During the same evening, a car is driven directly into a group of Romanians protesters, injuring 14. The driver runs, but his car was set on fire. On March 17th, Dan Suciu and Adrian Popescu, a Reuters photo reporter, ask the local police about the above incident. They find out the author was Hungarian ethnic Nagy Samuel who apologizes, saying he was drank. They also find out there was another car who was chasing Romanians.
Also, an interesting fact - one day before the main events, Irish journalist Gary Honeyford came to Grand Hotel and insisting for a room with street view. Dan Suciu obtained a copy of the hotel records for that day.
http://www.ziaristionline.ro/2011/03/20/dorin-suciu-ziaristul-care-a-documentat-masacrul-romanilor-de-la-targu-mures-post-scriptum-la-o-manipulare-maghiara/
Some links with Dan Suciu's diary pages: http://www.napocanews.ro/2010/03/corespondentul-tvr-dorin-suciu-despre-revolutie-si-incidentele-din-martie-1990-de-la-tg-mures.html http://www.napocanews.ro/2010/03/razboaiele-de-imagine-anti-romania-dorin-suciu-despre-%E2%80%9Epogromul%E2%80%9D-de-la-targu-mures-%E2%80%9Cadevarul%E2%80%9D-propaga-minciuna-prin-gurile-unor-borbely-pirvulescu-haller-si-szobot.html http://adevarul.ro/news/eveniment/exclusiv-culisele-manipularii-conflictului-romano-maghiar-20-martie-1990-1_50ad49937c42d5a663924d61/index.html http://www.ziaristionline.ro/2011/03/20/dorin-suciu-ziaristul-care-a-documentat-masacrul-romanilor-de-la-targu-mures-post-scriptum-la-o-manipulare-maghiara/ http://jurnalul.ro/stire-special/post-scriptum-la-o-manipulare-539245.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jJDqbeDZ3c http://www.evz.ro/detalii/stiri/rusii-nu-sunt-interesati-de-nabucco-889590.html
During the past 24 years, almost every year but especially close to March 15th (the Hungary's National day) the Hungarian ethnics or the szekely provoke and incite to ethinc tension.
2010: Bilingual city signpost for Miercurea Ciuc is vandalized, with the Romanian text coverd with szekely script:
http://tanasadan.blogspot.ro/2010/09/sovinii-secui-lovesc-din-nou-inscriptia.html
March 2011: Avram Iancu (puppet impersonating him) was hanged by a Hungarian extremist. Several Democratic Union of Hungarians (UDMR) leaders take an oath of allegiance to Hungary. http://www.gandul.info/reportaj/ziua-maghiarilor-un-extremist-l-a-spanzurat-pe-avram-iancu-la-miercurea-ciuc-mai-multi-lideri-udmr-au-depus-juramantul-de-credinta-fata-de-ungaria-video-8063485 http://www.antena3.ro/romania/papusa-ce-il-reprezinta-pe-avram-iancu-spanzurata-la-mircurea-ciuc-120663.html
Mai 2012: Avram Iancu Memorial House set fire with Molotov cocktails.
http://a1.ro/news/social/video-targu-mures-casa-memoriala-avram-iancu-incendiata.html
2013: A Romanian girl received a death threat and racist injuries because she was wearing at school a head band in Romania's flag colors, on Hungary's national day.
Also other journalists receive death threats via Facebook because show their support.
http://www.dantanasa.ro/2013/03/24/sponsor-of-hockey-club-makes-death-threat-to-jurnalist-and-15-years-old-pupil/
Just because you make your voice lauder, doesn't mean it makes you any more right. :)
-Paul- (
talk)
00:59, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
http://adevarul.ro/news/societate/linsarea-maiorului-aurel-agache-1_50ad810c7c42d5a663966068/index.html http://adevarul.ro/news/societate/femeia--invins-iadul-1_50ad715b7c42d5a663953dcb/index.html http://adevarul.ro/news/societate/o-zi-viata-unui-criminal-revolutie-1_50ad7c287c42d5a663960a11/index.html There were casualties amongst "Militia" in other areas of the country, but they were shot (usually by snipers or plain clothed aggressors): http://www.dantanasa.ro/2012/12/24/dionise-aurel-agache-cum-a-fost-ucis-tatal-meu-decembrie-negru-o-tragedie-romaneasca-din-targu-secuiesc-de-la-revolutia-din-1989/ Only in the areas with a large Hungarian minority (or a "minority majority") they were usually beaten to death: Liviu Cheuchişan, beaten to death in front of his wife and two kids; linching of Aurel Agache in Târgu Secuiesc (Kézdivásárhely / Szekler Neumarkt) are just two examples. -Paul- ( talk) 14:04, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
A while back, I started writing the German article about these clashes. I used this and the Hungarian article as a base and did own searches as well that led to more sources and more details. As you can see, I also provided a couple of images more (which is never a bad thing). As I don't speak Romanian, I couldn't come up with Romanian sources, just kept those that were already given. If there is desire for this, I could provide a translation that could be used to improve the English version. I mean, in no ways will the reader get an idea what was actually going on there back then. Watch a youtube video with original material and you'll see what I mean. If we would update the English article, it could lead to a further improvement of the German article as well as more Romanian input could be used. In any case, I'd like to recommend Kincses' book Black Spring which is also translated to English as well as Király's blog. I'm curious to see your opinions about my suggestion. SüsüASárkány ( talk) 17:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I respectfully ask all the editors to stop adding unsourced material Raysdiet ( talk) 19:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
The official page of some institution (school in this case) is reliable enough. The problem is if the data isn`t there. User:Koertefa can you please check this sources if there is this data there? Adrian ( talk) 11:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I agree, a background section would be good information to this article. Adrian ( talk) 19:43, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't look fine at all. There are Hungarians living in Satu Mare, Oradea, Arad, Timisora etc., important cities of Transylvania hundreds of kilometers away from Targu Mures. Targu Mures besides being an important city for all the Hungarians living in Transylvania, it is and has been first and foremost a cultural and historical center of Székely Land. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 13:38, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
it is relevant and thus justified to mention that "Targu Mures (Marosvásárhely)/The town is a (/one of the) cultural and historical center(s) of Székely Land" at the beginning of the lead along with the other localizations. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 15:04, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
My proposal is keeping the existing version as it is. Raysdiet wants to remove the statement that Targu Mures is "one of the historical and cultural centers of Székely Land" which I think is factual, relevant and important: Since
it is relevant and thus justified to mention that Targu Mures is "one of the historical and cultural centers of Székely Land" at the beginning of the lead section, after the other localizations of Targu Mures (Transylvania, Romania). I don't see any objective reasons (bias, lack of relevance etc.) for removing this statement from the lead section.-- Rob.HUN ( talk) 20:25, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Conclusion: In your points you have not enumerated not a single argument why would your proposal be valid. Nobody is saying that Targu Mures was not important in history for the Szekely Land but today this kind of info is not for the lead. I still think that the best solution is to create a new section and write all the history behind it(as you stated "the root cause of the events"). Adrian ( talk) 21:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
thus the statement gives the events and Targu Mures their precise context and connection without bloating the lead section with details. Isn't that what the lead section is for? I think it is relevant and important to have the connection of Targu Mures and Székely Land stated: Targu Mures would not be a major center for the Hungarian population if it wasn't a center of Székely Land. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 22:31, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
I hope I explained it, so let`s keep it simple. Political structures that doesn`t exist anymore can`t be used as a valid designation for a location. Simple as that. Adrian ( talk) 11:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
If the concern about a possibility of misunderstanding the political status of Székely Land is the genuine and sincere cause of Adrian's and Raysdiet's objectian, here is the most explicit version imaginable:
If there is going to be a consensus, maybe there should be a section enumerating common sense versions of the lead and decide on one of them. This thread is to complicated to read all and follow(I personally don`t even know who agrees on what) and a new section with the proposals would be great. Adrian ( talk) 16:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Also please bare in mind that other articles on wikipedia does not have this kind of information in the lead. Historical facts are reserved for the history section. According to the practice on wikipedia, this kind of info is not recommended for the lead. Also the current Targu Mures article does not contain this info in the lead, why should this article do? Adrian ( talk) 00:29, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I propose renaming 'The casualties' section 'Casualties'. There has been a dispute over the "but no ethnic Romanians were put to trial" part. I couldn't find any references for ethnic Romanians ever having been convicted or at least brought to trial in connection with the events. Since it was an ethnic conflict with victims on both sides it is important to take note of the legal consequences - or lack of - on both sides as well. I also propose mentioning the three Hungarian dead first on basis of the higher count. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 09:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
"According to this source 2+7 according to that source 2+12." Fakirbakir ( talk) 20:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
"Any source?" Are you suggesting Raysdiet, that the Romanina court prosecuted and convicted Roma people on false charges in show trials? -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 21:43, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
It is a fact the Roma joined to the Hungarians in the attack against the Romanians. Fakirbakir ( talk) 21:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
...for one week to stop edit-warring. If the dispute cannot be resolved here within a day or two, please invoke WP:Dispute resolution. JohnCD ( talk) 10:42, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Much of the text referring him ("the Hungarian writer András Sütő was seriously beaten when ethnic Romanians attacked the offices of the Democratic Union of Hungarians (UDMR). With several bones broken and his eyes injured he was carried to the Bucharest Military Hospital, then, later, by a military aircraft to Budapest, Hungary,") cannot be found in the provided source, namely http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402032.html which only affirms "In March 1990, Mr. Suto was nearly beaten to death and lost an eye during clashes between Romanians and ethnic Hungarians in the Romanian city of Tirgu Mures after Ceausescu was ousted in December 1989." Raysdiet ( talk) 07:35, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Some facts about the events here [23]. Fakirbakir ( talk) 12:56, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I was wondering how does a Romanian understand this expression: 1. as a national celebration of the Hungarian state 2. as a national celebration recognized by the Hungarian state.-- Rob.HUN ( talk) 19:44, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Raysdiet created a new section, The Events and heavily expanded it with Romaninan media reports. Since the role of the media is highly controversial in this event, please provide third party/scholarly sources when adding information. -- Rob.HUN ( talk) 09:19, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
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A well sourced material was removed without any proper discussion. [24] "Because I do not like it" opinion can not be proper reasoning. If somebody does not agree with the content he or she will have to improve the article and find other sources for the sake of factual accuracy instead of thoughtless reverting. Fakirbakir ( talk) 11:14, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Rob.HUN also removed my well sourced material without any proper discussion [26] Raysdiet ( talk) 12:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Can we please decide how we want this article changed and not simply wait for the protection to expire and the whole edit warring nonsense to begin again. Please say what you want changed, why, and with WP:RSs to back up your proposed change. RashersTierney ( talk) 21:34, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
What does exactly a scholary work mean in this context? It is just about being an objective observer of the events. Are there people specialized in being witnesses? Hh2013 ( talk) 18:55, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
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