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On 19 July 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Ethical arguments regarding torture to Ethics of torture. The result of the discussion was moved. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 8 October 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Maryannelindemann. Peer reviewers: GERSH.D, HarryJL.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:53, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I have moved content from the main torture article as per the discussion on the talk page. This article is only in an early stage and needs a lot of content added. Thank you. -- Silversmith 12:33, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
~~I would like to contribute some information that I have researched to this article.--[kelsie09] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelsie09 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I have taken this from the Torture Article:
Some of the edits I have made to this article is to remove POV about what is and is not torture.
I have also re-written other sections of the article which I think were not very clear. For example the Jury section did not present a logical arguemnt why confessions extracted under duress are not valid in court. It is to do with the fact that any resonable person who can at all empthise with the victim of turture will realise that any confession that is extracted under such methods is unlikely to be worth the paper it is written on, not that juries are arbitary and torture is not used only because it is not necessary to do so.
Further I have removed the examples of alleged torture, as this is an article on the "Ethical arguments regarding torture" the examples were full of POV and recent example of torture and alledged torture exist in the Uses of torture in recent times. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Note by a spanish user: The utilitarian versus deontological section is completely wrong. Utilitarism doesn't focus in intentions; it is Kant's moral the one that does. Utilitarism says (in a more complex way) that something is right if almost everyone thinks it is.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.124.54.106 ( talk • contribs)
Within the criticism section on opponents of torture, the only arguments posted are those that people dislike torture. This provides none of the deontological arguments or utilitarian arguments against the use of torture. While numerous arguments exist, this article seems to exhibit the authorship of one clearly in favor of torturing. How despicable that no one would care to provide arguments, let alone stand in opposition to it. 128.97.104.59 ( talk) 10:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)Amir
The use of words such as "Most" or "Some" needs to be changed. 129.15.131.246 ( talk) 15:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
"Well, they do it to US!"
For some reason, people seem to sincerely believe that committing atrocities against randomly chosen members of a given ethnicity is fair if someone of that approximate ethnicity has apparently done wrong in the past.
I'm sure there's a Latin phrase describing this fallacy. It probably translates to "You are a retard.", but again and again, when I am upset at some newly disclosed torture-related outrage being committed by America, (the former shining beacon of law, reason, freedom, etc.) this is the argument that's thrown back at me, usually by very, very angry people who passionately believe that torture in the name of truth, justice and the American way is justifiable.
I guess getting people to lie in order to make pain stop falls under truth and justice? Or maybe that's just the American way nowadays? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.27.195.24 ( talk • contribs) 06:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Although the utiltarian view is put forward that the end justifies the means, experience in states which widely practice torture is that it rapidly becomes not a method of extracting information, but as a method of terrorising and subjugating the population and enables state forces - mis-named "law enforcement" or "security" forces, for they promote neither - to dispense with ordinary means of establishing innocence or guilt and with the whole legal apparatus altogether.
It is better that a few individuals be killed by bombers than a much greater number- possibly thousands of innocent people - are tortured and murdered and legal and constitutional provisions are destroyed.-- Streona ( talk) 17:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I liked that argument so much I put in the article.-- Streona ( talk) 13:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it necessary for an argument to be sourced, as opposed to a fact or assertion? It is either coherent or it not upon its own evidence.-- Streona ( talk) 15:42, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, I suppose this is the gist of "Torture: Cancer of Democracy" by Pierre Vidal-Naquet- as the title suggests, so I will dig out my copy and look for an apposite quote.-- Streona ( talk) 21:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The Gafgen case cited in the Ticking Time Bomb section is not an example of successful use of torture to bring about the successful resolution of a ticking time bomb case. The victim was already dead, and recovery of remains is hardly a ticking time bomb situation.
One of the flaws to the ticking time bomb scenario is that the person being tortured can easily provide bogus information to make the torture stop long enough for the bomb to detonate. That's a pragmatic, not an ethical, objection, though. Hiernonymous ( talk) 21:30, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 ( talk) 15:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Ethical arguments regarding torture → Ethics of torture – Simpler, more concise name which is more similar to those used by RS, for example: ( t · c) buidhe 13:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Ethical arguments regarding torture) ( t · c) buidhe 13:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
"In this case torture was threatened, but not used, to extract information" in the ethics section is nonsensical under several definitions; the threat of torture is a form of torture.
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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On 19 July 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Ethical arguments regarding torture to Ethics of torture. The result of the discussion was moved. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 8 October 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Maryannelindemann. Peer reviewers: GERSH.D, HarryJL.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:53, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I have moved content from the main torture article as per the discussion on the talk page. This article is only in an early stage and needs a lot of content added. Thank you. -- Silversmith 12:33, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
~~I would like to contribute some information that I have researched to this article.--[kelsie09] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelsie09 ( talk • contribs) 19:01, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I have taken this from the Torture Article:
Some of the edits I have made to this article is to remove POV about what is and is not torture.
I have also re-written other sections of the article which I think were not very clear. For example the Jury section did not present a logical arguemnt why confessions extracted under duress are not valid in court. It is to do with the fact that any resonable person who can at all empthise with the victim of turture will realise that any confession that is extracted under such methods is unlikely to be worth the paper it is written on, not that juries are arbitary and torture is not used only because it is not necessary to do so.
Further I have removed the examples of alleged torture, as this is an article on the "Ethical arguments regarding torture" the examples were full of POV and recent example of torture and alledged torture exist in the Uses of torture in recent times. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Note by a spanish user: The utilitarian versus deontological section is completely wrong. Utilitarism doesn't focus in intentions; it is Kant's moral the one that does. Utilitarism says (in a more complex way) that something is right if almost everyone thinks it is.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.124.54.106 ( talk • contribs)
Within the criticism section on opponents of torture, the only arguments posted are those that people dislike torture. This provides none of the deontological arguments or utilitarian arguments against the use of torture. While numerous arguments exist, this article seems to exhibit the authorship of one clearly in favor of torturing. How despicable that no one would care to provide arguments, let alone stand in opposition to it. 128.97.104.59 ( talk) 10:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)Amir
The use of words such as "Most" or "Some" needs to be changed. 129.15.131.246 ( talk) 15:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
"Well, they do it to US!"
For some reason, people seem to sincerely believe that committing atrocities against randomly chosen members of a given ethnicity is fair if someone of that approximate ethnicity has apparently done wrong in the past.
I'm sure there's a Latin phrase describing this fallacy. It probably translates to "You are a retard.", but again and again, when I am upset at some newly disclosed torture-related outrage being committed by America, (the former shining beacon of law, reason, freedom, etc.) this is the argument that's thrown back at me, usually by very, very angry people who passionately believe that torture in the name of truth, justice and the American way is justifiable.
I guess getting people to lie in order to make pain stop falls under truth and justice? Or maybe that's just the American way nowadays? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.27.195.24 ( talk • contribs) 06:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Although the utiltarian view is put forward that the end justifies the means, experience in states which widely practice torture is that it rapidly becomes not a method of extracting information, but as a method of terrorising and subjugating the population and enables state forces - mis-named "law enforcement" or "security" forces, for they promote neither - to dispense with ordinary means of establishing innocence or guilt and with the whole legal apparatus altogether.
It is better that a few individuals be killed by bombers than a much greater number- possibly thousands of innocent people - are tortured and murdered and legal and constitutional provisions are destroyed.-- Streona ( talk) 17:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I liked that argument so much I put in the article.-- Streona ( talk) 13:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Is it necessary for an argument to be sourced, as opposed to a fact or assertion? It is either coherent or it not upon its own evidence.-- Streona ( talk) 15:42, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, I suppose this is the gist of "Torture: Cancer of Democracy" by Pierre Vidal-Naquet- as the title suggests, so I will dig out my copy and look for an apposite quote.-- Streona ( talk) 21:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The Gafgen case cited in the Ticking Time Bomb section is not an example of successful use of torture to bring about the successful resolution of a ticking time bomb case. The victim was already dead, and recovery of remains is hardly a ticking time bomb situation.
One of the flaws to the ticking time bomb scenario is that the person being tortured can easily provide bogus information to make the torture stop long enough for the bomb to detonate. That's a pragmatic, not an ethical, objection, though. Hiernonymous ( talk) 21:30, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 ( talk) 15:08, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Ethical arguments regarding torture → Ethics of torture – Simpler, more concise name which is more similar to those used by RS, for example: ( t · c) buidhe 13:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Ethical arguments regarding torture) ( t · c) buidhe 13:43, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
"In this case torture was threatened, but not used, to extract information" in the ethics section is nonsensical under several definitions; the threat of torture is a form of torture.