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To editor ValtteriLahti12: I think that the Augustine topic that you just added to this page deals only with perseverance of the saints not security itself. However Augustine was a very important link for the further propagation of the doctrine of Eternal Security. In order to have a rough idea of this history, you can read this short article:
At the end of the article you will find a bibliography, where you will find some books that are online, especially this one, for further details:
For recent history of this doctrine you can see also :
So I think that what you added belongs more to a "History of the doctrine" chapter. --- Telikalive ( talk) 16:42, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
To editor ValtteriLahti12: Hello, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch taught the possibility of apostasy for true (regenerated) Christians. This teaching opposes any post-regeneration determinism (included in eternal security). See quotations of "Ignatus" and "Clement" here :
Witzki, steve (2013). "Early Christian Writers on Apostasy" (PDF). Society of Evangelical Arminians.
Example : "Take heed, beloved, lest His many kindnesses lead to the condemnation of us all." (1 Clement 21)
Sorry : I was totally unclear in my modification comment. I hope I'm clearer now. Bye --- Telikalive ( talk) 11:09, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
To editor ValtteriLahti12: It's clear also to me that the "free grace" form of eternal security is not the main one nowadays. In my first post, I gave you input showing that the main form appeared around 1900, [1] in the non-Calvinist circles (Darbyist circles [2] [3] Southern Baptists circles [4] and others evangelicals [5].) My point is that this form of "eternal security" is the most prominent form in Protestantism,
"In the majority of cases, however, the doctrine of eternal security is not grounded on the Calvinistic dogma of unconditional predestination. While all who teach eternal security are frequently called "Calvinists," actually the greater portion of them are no more than 20 percent Calvinistic." [6]
Thus, nowadays there are 3 form of "eternal security" :
The second view of "eternal security" is now so prominent, that even some Calvinists insist to differentiate "perseverance of the saints" from the common usage of "eternal security" :
"It is common to hear the term “eternal security” used basically as a synonym for “the perseverance of the saints”. [...] However, the term “eternal security” is often used in a very different and unbiblical way [...] Hence, in common usage, the term “eternal security” can sometimes refer to a doctrine diametrically opposed to the Reformed doctrine of perseverance." [7]
If we want to lead the reader to the nowadays "common usage" of "eternal security", in order to comply with WP:PLA I think we need to distinguish "perseverance of the saints" from "eternal security" and consider only the views 1, 2, 3 above mentioned as "eternal security". This approach is also legitimized by the first historical occurrence of the terms "security of the believers" (1841) [4] and "eternal security" (1913) [3] which was in relation with the common view. --- Telikalive ( talk) 11:58, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
The redirect
Preservation of the saints has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 1 § Preservation of the saints until a consensus is reached.
Telikalive (
talk)
13:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Ken Wilson was likely referring to Augustine's "City of God", which reads thus: But, say they, the Catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by which Christ is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned.
I don't think there is sufficient reason to delete this from the article. -- ValtteriLahti12 ( talk) 09:17, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ValtteriLahti12 Hello. What do you mean by "generally" ? Do you have some source ? ---- Telikalive ( talk) 17:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
To editor ValtteriLahti12: I think that the Augustine topic that you just added to this page deals only with perseverance of the saints not security itself. However Augustine was a very important link for the further propagation of the doctrine of Eternal Security. In order to have a rough idea of this history, you can read this short article:
At the end of the article you will find a bibliography, where you will find some books that are online, especially this one, for further details:
For recent history of this doctrine you can see also :
So I think that what you added belongs more to a "History of the doctrine" chapter. --- Telikalive ( talk) 16:42, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
To editor ValtteriLahti12: Hello, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch taught the possibility of apostasy for true (regenerated) Christians. This teaching opposes any post-regeneration determinism (included in eternal security). See quotations of "Ignatus" and "Clement" here :
Witzki, steve (2013). "Early Christian Writers on Apostasy" (PDF). Society of Evangelical Arminians.
Example : "Take heed, beloved, lest His many kindnesses lead to the condemnation of us all." (1 Clement 21)
Sorry : I was totally unclear in my modification comment. I hope I'm clearer now. Bye --- Telikalive ( talk) 11:09, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
To editor ValtteriLahti12: It's clear also to me that the "free grace" form of eternal security is not the main one nowadays. In my first post, I gave you input showing that the main form appeared around 1900, [1] in the non-Calvinist circles (Darbyist circles [2] [3] Southern Baptists circles [4] and others evangelicals [5].) My point is that this form of "eternal security" is the most prominent form in Protestantism,
"In the majority of cases, however, the doctrine of eternal security is not grounded on the Calvinistic dogma of unconditional predestination. While all who teach eternal security are frequently called "Calvinists," actually the greater portion of them are no more than 20 percent Calvinistic." [6]
Thus, nowadays there are 3 form of "eternal security" :
The second view of "eternal security" is now so prominent, that even some Calvinists insist to differentiate "perseverance of the saints" from the common usage of "eternal security" :
"It is common to hear the term “eternal security” used basically as a synonym for “the perseverance of the saints”. [...] However, the term “eternal security” is often used in a very different and unbiblical way [...] Hence, in common usage, the term “eternal security” can sometimes refer to a doctrine diametrically opposed to the Reformed doctrine of perseverance." [7]
If we want to lead the reader to the nowadays "common usage" of "eternal security", in order to comply with WP:PLA I think we need to distinguish "perseverance of the saints" from "eternal security" and consider only the views 1, 2, 3 above mentioned as "eternal security". This approach is also legitimized by the first historical occurrence of the terms "security of the believers" (1841) [4] and "eternal security" (1913) [3] which was in relation with the common view. --- Telikalive ( talk) 11:58, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
The redirect
Preservation of the saints has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 1 § Preservation of the saints until a consensus is reached.
Telikalive (
talk)
13:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Ken Wilson was likely referring to Augustine's "City of God", which reads thus: But, say they, the Catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by which Christ is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned.
I don't think there is sufficient reason to delete this from the article. -- ValtteriLahti12 ( talk) 09:17, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
@ ValtteriLahti12 Hello. What do you mean by "generally" ? Do you have some source ? ---- Telikalive ( talk) 17:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)