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To whomever keeps re-inserting "co-founder" as it applies to Jimmy Wales, this is inaccurate. While Larry Sanger had a core role in the establishment of Wikipedia, he is not considered a "co-founder" by the Wikipedia Foundation. Someone has taken to attributing the "co-founder" claim to a January 30, 2003 article from The Guardian, which states, "It's so successful that its founders, internet entrepreneur Jimmy Wales and philosopher Larry Sanger, have started Wiktionary.org - a dictionary version." This is clearly incorrect -- as for one, Sanger had resigned a year earlier, on March 1, 2002! [1]
Not to turn this into a "war of attribution", but here are some of the many articles which list Wales alone as "founder". Choose any that one wishes for citation:
“ | Wales admitted he made the changes, but argued the edits were meant merely to emphasize a technical point about the specific roles the two had at the time.
"It's very neutral," he said. "The point wasn't to write Larry Sanger out of the story. I think Larry doesn't get enough credit." |
” |
-- Leflyman Talk 01:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User:Larry_Sanger/Origins_of_Wikipedia&oldid=39843351
According to Larry Singer he is the co-founder of Wikipedia. Also, there was a reference removed from the article that proves this too. End of discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=114430680&oldid=114426380
The co-founder's "Sanger's response" is therefore highly relevant, notable, and part of the story of the Essjay controversy. The reference to a blog from the personal blog of Larry Singer meets Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. Have a nice day. Quack Guru TALK 02:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The brown nosing by editors in here is pretty sad. Do you score points by defending this revision of history? Do you think if Larry still worked for Wikipedia and if Jim and Larry were best friends, Sanger's co-founder status would even be on the radar? Oh course it wouldn't. He would still be called co-founder as he was way back when. I love Wikipedia because you can go back and see how articles err, "evovle" over time. This is one of the best examples of how material facts can "morph" over time. Its like whisper down the lane. Go back to any of the articles about Wales or Sanger or Wikipedia or its history and see how they have changed that co-funder fact. Larry who? Again, do you folks get points for defending this revisionist tale? I know, its like the Sexuality of Abraham Lincoln article. In a few years time, more "material" will be fleshed out and ol' Abe will finally be outted of the closet and proven to be the homosexual that he was, right? Whatever, -- Tom 02:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I have never agreed that Larry should be called co-founder and have contested it from the time when Larry awarded himself the title. Has Wikipedia made this error in the past many times? Yes, and so have the press. Nonetheless, it remains very much in dispute, and therefore it is always wrong to call Larry co-founder without at a bare minimum noting the dispute. In most cases, it is sufficiently irrelevant to a given mention of Larry that his self-awarded title need not be mentioned at all, in order to avoid pointing out that it is in dispute.--Jimbo Wales 13:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Are you actually trying to source a controversial claim barely relevant to the article from a statement on Wikipedia by the subject of the controversial claim? Even if you can make a case that Sanger is an essential part of this story, you have to find a source that isn't his personal blog. And if you want to claim he is the co-founder you're going to have to convince the rest of Wikipedia to change the articles on Wikipedia, Larry Sanger, and Jimbo Wales so we don't have articles with conflicting statements. From what I've seen you haven't even made a case that Sanger's statement is "essential." AniMate 03:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2001-October/000671.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20030618043804/www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,884666,00.html Quack Guru TALK 03:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Wait wait wait, isn't there enough controversy on this article already? Just word it so it doesn't matter one way or the other and forget about it. -- Ned Scott 04:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Well Quack...none of us is inclined to include it, and you know that any number of editors (not just the ones posting here) will edit out anything that isn't properly sourced. So...the ball is in your court. Frankly, I'm not sure why so much energy has been expended on something that is completely unrelated to this article, which is *about the controversy involving an editor who claimed credentials he did not hold*. Larry Sanger had nothing to do with this situation. At least I haven't seen a reliable source that indicates he had any involvement. Risker 05:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Initially Jimmy Wales, the co-founder [1] of Wikipedia, had said on the issue of Essjay's identity: "I regard it as a pseudonym and I don’t really have a problem with it." [2]
Soon after Larry Sanger, co-founder [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] of Wikipedia, responded to Wales on his Citizendium blog by writing in part:
There’s something utterly breathtaking, and ultimately tragic, about Jimmy telling The New Yorker that he doesn’t have a problem with Essjay’s lies, and by essentially honoring Essjay after his lies were exposed.... Doesn’t Jimmy know that this has the potential to be even more damaging to Wikipedia than the Seigenthaler situation, since it reflects directly on the judgment and values of the management of Wikipedia? [3]
Two sources have cited and linked to both blog posts QuackGuru wishes to add: http://www.webcitation.org/5NHN8wyHD and http://www.webcitation.org/5NHLsGxze CyberAnth 07:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Sanger's response is nothing but the "me-too"ing of what a bunch of Wikipedia editors had already said, important only so far as it provides a citeable example of that view. Doesn't need more than a couple sentences in the article, anything more is major undue weight. The more interesting criticism is Finkelstein's, since he actually uses it to say something about the Wikipedia community and interactive community system "hiveminds" as a whole rather than staying at the "that was morally reprehensible Essjay! Bad boy!" surface level. -- tjstrf talk 09:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, despite the sense that Larry Sanger's blog isn't really a great source, I think QuackGuru may have a point about adding more into the reaction section - after all, it seems that is the main point of the article. Thoughts about building another paragraph or two into the article about how the media picked up on this story? Also, I seem to recall a link from someone where some educators were interviewed about the continued value of WP despite this controversy. Risker 02:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Folks, this is such a no-brainer it amazes me that gigs of words have been wasted on it.
Simple, plain, and completely NPOV. CyberAnth 08:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
This isn't the place to dispute this but Sanger was an early manager of Wikipedia, an employee of Wales who provided both the capital and thus the ultimate direction. Gwen Gale 11:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Jeez people, if you wanna talk about this go to Talk:Jimmy Wales or Talk:Larry Sanger. I'm sure they'd love to hear it there. -- Dookama 11:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to bowdlerize the work that many have put into the Sanger criticism without discussing, but I am not certain that I have seen a reference to the Arbcom issue anywhere but from Sanger's quotes. Adding it here does seem to be a little bit on the navel-gazing side, if it is apparently unimportant to anyone but Wikipedians. Risker 15:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
It is my humble opinion that the level of Sanger's involvement with Wikipedia is irrelevant in the context of this article, thus I have boldly removed it before an edit war starts over this. "Former Wikipedia manager" is enough IMO (because it seems unquestioned), more can be found on the Larry Sanger article, to which we link for a reason. Let's not drown in digressions in the article. Cheers and sorry for the tyop in the edit summary. ;-) Миша 13 14:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Look, Wales botched and has apologized. Next? Meanwhile Lincoln was indeed a psychotic mass murdering dictator who corrupted and chaveled the US and their civil war had little to do with slavery but Wikipedia only reflects the PoV of mainstream scholarship in blowing all that off for now. If scholarship one day sways into a take I can deal with, I might even edit there :) In my bloody dreams. Meanwhile who cares about AL's sexuality anyway (as if one could support any of the speculation)? This is a public wiki. Articles must be supported by independent and verifiable sources, weighted as to provenance and written by consensus. Worries about Wikipedia? Haha! Any of mine tend to have roots running straight back into the world we all live in. Cheers to all (Quack too!). Gwen Gale 11:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
*sigh* I wish all Wikipedia articles had such rich, wonderful, diverse and reliable sources and references...</sarcasm> Миша 13 12:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is my proposal to organize the article.
No voting on editorial content (my humble, wee take :) Gwen Gale 18:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is my proposal to organize the article.
Truth be told I think the phrase "badly structured" has zero meaning. Please be specific, I mean, give quoted examples with your take on what you don't like and what you want to do. Thanks. Gwen Gale 19:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent to respond to initial question) There do seem to be a few areas that need work. I agree with Gwen Gale that the sentence about the letter is orphaned right now, and as noted above, the Louisville reference is also not quite in the right place. It also strikes me that Jimbo had a lot more reaction than the one quote we have there now. I've beefed up the lead a bit, edit to your heart's content. Risker 19:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Anyway yeah Quack, Essjay scammed. I think the article makes that clear. Gwen Gale 19:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I think Quack's notion of dividing small fragments of text into a pre-defined skeleton could unhelpfully spin the article's weight and PoV later on. Gwen Gale 19:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
newyorker
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 12 |
To whomever keeps re-inserting "co-founder" as it applies to Jimmy Wales, this is inaccurate. While Larry Sanger had a core role in the establishment of Wikipedia, he is not considered a "co-founder" by the Wikipedia Foundation. Someone has taken to attributing the "co-founder" claim to a January 30, 2003 article from The Guardian, which states, "It's so successful that its founders, internet entrepreneur Jimmy Wales and philosopher Larry Sanger, have started Wiktionary.org - a dictionary version." This is clearly incorrect -- as for one, Sanger had resigned a year earlier, on March 1, 2002! [1]
Not to turn this into a "war of attribution", but here are some of the many articles which list Wales alone as "founder". Choose any that one wishes for citation:
“ | Wales admitted he made the changes, but argued the edits were meant merely to emphasize a technical point about the specific roles the two had at the time.
"It's very neutral," he said. "The point wasn't to write Larry Sanger out of the story. I think Larry doesn't get enough credit." |
” |
-- Leflyman Talk 01:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User:Larry_Sanger/Origins_of_Wikipedia&oldid=39843351
According to Larry Singer he is the co-founder of Wikipedia. Also, there was a reference removed from the article that proves this too. End of discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=114430680&oldid=114426380
The co-founder's "Sanger's response" is therefore highly relevant, notable, and part of the story of the Essjay controversy. The reference to a blog from the personal blog of Larry Singer meets Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. Have a nice day. Quack Guru TALK 02:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The brown nosing by editors in here is pretty sad. Do you score points by defending this revision of history? Do you think if Larry still worked for Wikipedia and if Jim and Larry were best friends, Sanger's co-founder status would even be on the radar? Oh course it wouldn't. He would still be called co-founder as he was way back when. I love Wikipedia because you can go back and see how articles err, "evovle" over time. This is one of the best examples of how material facts can "morph" over time. Its like whisper down the lane. Go back to any of the articles about Wales or Sanger or Wikipedia or its history and see how they have changed that co-funder fact. Larry who? Again, do you folks get points for defending this revisionist tale? I know, its like the Sexuality of Abraham Lincoln article. In a few years time, more "material" will be fleshed out and ol' Abe will finally be outted of the closet and proven to be the homosexual that he was, right? Whatever, -- Tom 02:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I have never agreed that Larry should be called co-founder and have contested it from the time when Larry awarded himself the title. Has Wikipedia made this error in the past many times? Yes, and so have the press. Nonetheless, it remains very much in dispute, and therefore it is always wrong to call Larry co-founder without at a bare minimum noting the dispute. In most cases, it is sufficiently irrelevant to a given mention of Larry that his self-awarded title need not be mentioned at all, in order to avoid pointing out that it is in dispute.--Jimbo Wales 13:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Are you actually trying to source a controversial claim barely relevant to the article from a statement on Wikipedia by the subject of the controversial claim? Even if you can make a case that Sanger is an essential part of this story, you have to find a source that isn't his personal blog. And if you want to claim he is the co-founder you're going to have to convince the rest of Wikipedia to change the articles on Wikipedia, Larry Sanger, and Jimbo Wales so we don't have articles with conflicting statements. From what I've seen you haven't even made a case that Sanger's statement is "essential." AniMate 03:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2001-October/000671.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20030618043804/www.guardian.co.uk/online/story/0,3605,884666,00.html Quack Guru TALK 03:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Wait wait wait, isn't there enough controversy on this article already? Just word it so it doesn't matter one way or the other and forget about it. -- Ned Scott 04:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Well Quack...none of us is inclined to include it, and you know that any number of editors (not just the ones posting here) will edit out anything that isn't properly sourced. So...the ball is in your court. Frankly, I'm not sure why so much energy has been expended on something that is completely unrelated to this article, which is *about the controversy involving an editor who claimed credentials he did not hold*. Larry Sanger had nothing to do with this situation. At least I haven't seen a reliable source that indicates he had any involvement. Risker 05:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Initially Jimmy Wales, the co-founder [1] of Wikipedia, had said on the issue of Essjay's identity: "I regard it as a pseudonym and I don’t really have a problem with it." [2]
Soon after Larry Sanger, co-founder [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] of Wikipedia, responded to Wales on his Citizendium blog by writing in part:
There’s something utterly breathtaking, and ultimately tragic, about Jimmy telling The New Yorker that he doesn’t have a problem with Essjay’s lies, and by essentially honoring Essjay after his lies were exposed.... Doesn’t Jimmy know that this has the potential to be even more damaging to Wikipedia than the Seigenthaler situation, since it reflects directly on the judgment and values of the management of Wikipedia? [3]
Two sources have cited and linked to both blog posts QuackGuru wishes to add: http://www.webcitation.org/5NHN8wyHD and http://www.webcitation.org/5NHLsGxze CyberAnth 07:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Sanger's response is nothing but the "me-too"ing of what a bunch of Wikipedia editors had already said, important only so far as it provides a citeable example of that view. Doesn't need more than a couple sentences in the article, anything more is major undue weight. The more interesting criticism is Finkelstein's, since he actually uses it to say something about the Wikipedia community and interactive community system "hiveminds" as a whole rather than staying at the "that was morally reprehensible Essjay! Bad boy!" surface level. -- tjstrf talk 09:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, despite the sense that Larry Sanger's blog isn't really a great source, I think QuackGuru may have a point about adding more into the reaction section - after all, it seems that is the main point of the article. Thoughts about building another paragraph or two into the article about how the media picked up on this story? Also, I seem to recall a link from someone where some educators were interviewed about the continued value of WP despite this controversy. Risker 02:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Folks, this is such a no-brainer it amazes me that gigs of words have been wasted on it.
Simple, plain, and completely NPOV. CyberAnth 08:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
This isn't the place to dispute this but Sanger was an early manager of Wikipedia, an employee of Wales who provided both the capital and thus the ultimate direction. Gwen Gale 11:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Jeez people, if you wanna talk about this go to Talk:Jimmy Wales or Talk:Larry Sanger. I'm sure they'd love to hear it there. -- Dookama 11:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to bowdlerize the work that many have put into the Sanger criticism without discussing, but I am not certain that I have seen a reference to the Arbcom issue anywhere but from Sanger's quotes. Adding it here does seem to be a little bit on the navel-gazing side, if it is apparently unimportant to anyone but Wikipedians. Risker 15:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
It is my humble opinion that the level of Sanger's involvement with Wikipedia is irrelevant in the context of this article, thus I have boldly removed it before an edit war starts over this. "Former Wikipedia manager" is enough IMO (because it seems unquestioned), more can be found on the Larry Sanger article, to which we link for a reason. Let's not drown in digressions in the article. Cheers and sorry for the tyop in the edit summary. ;-) Миша 13 14:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Look, Wales botched and has apologized. Next? Meanwhile Lincoln was indeed a psychotic mass murdering dictator who corrupted and chaveled the US and their civil war had little to do with slavery but Wikipedia only reflects the PoV of mainstream scholarship in blowing all that off for now. If scholarship one day sways into a take I can deal with, I might even edit there :) In my bloody dreams. Meanwhile who cares about AL's sexuality anyway (as if one could support any of the speculation)? This is a public wiki. Articles must be supported by independent and verifiable sources, weighted as to provenance and written by consensus. Worries about Wikipedia? Haha! Any of mine tend to have roots running straight back into the world we all live in. Cheers to all (Quack too!). Gwen Gale 11:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
*sigh* I wish all Wikipedia articles had such rich, wonderful, diverse and reliable sources and references...</sarcasm> Миша 13 12:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is my proposal to organize the article.
No voting on editorial content (my humble, wee take :) Gwen Gale 18:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is my proposal to organize the article.
Truth be told I think the phrase "badly structured" has zero meaning. Please be specific, I mean, give quoted examples with your take on what you don't like and what you want to do. Thanks. Gwen Gale 19:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent to respond to initial question) There do seem to be a few areas that need work. I agree with Gwen Gale that the sentence about the letter is orphaned right now, and as noted above, the Louisville reference is also not quite in the right place. It also strikes me that Jimbo had a lot more reaction than the one quote we have there now. I've beefed up the lead a bit, edit to your heart's content. Risker 19:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Anyway yeah Quack, Essjay scammed. I think the article makes that clear. Gwen Gale 19:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I think Quack's notion of dividing small fragments of text into a pre-defined skeleton could unhelpfully spin the article's weight and PoV later on. Gwen Gale 19:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
newyorker
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).