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The photo uploaded by Essjay supposedly of Essjay needs to return. Reliable sources have published the picture. It's absence here is a disservice to the comprehensiveness of this article. Johntex\ talk 04:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
We can use it however concensus decides and have no legal worries... - Denny 05:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Disappointed to see that the image of Essjay was inserted back in with a notation that it was "with consensus" - nonsense. There is no consensus on this issue yet, as I noted less than two hours ago. Please discuss reasons that this photo of a private individual should and should not be included in the article. Risker 19:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent)It is clear we still do not have consensus about this photo. I am very hesitant to include it. As a general practice, photos of individuals are not included in articles such as this, unless they are criminally convicted or charged, or are public figures in their own right or of their own volition. Yes, the Siegenthaler entry has a picture of Siegenthaler; however, that is a screenshot from when he voluntarily became a public figure by speaking on CNN. Nobody has identified another source that used this photo except for ABC - and even then it appeared, distorted, for a total of three seconds; one cannot argue that it was used widely. Using a photo of Essjay - Ryan - changes the focus of the article from the controversy to the individual. As we well know, an article about Essjay the editor will not survive. Risker 20:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Apparently there's an edit war over whether or not to mention Essjay's use of Catholicism for Dummies. Why should we mention it? Why shouldn't we? — Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 05:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Discussion started here [3]...but shall we continue in this new section created by the very friendly MessedRocker? Risker 05:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
It would be wrong to delete this fact from the article. The mainstream media thought it was important enough to report. The very fact that some people think it speaks well of Essjay (Great, he used a book as a source!) and that some people think it comes across as negative (Ewee he used that book?) means that we should include the fact and let the reader weigh the facts. Johntex\ talk 05:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind if you discuss in the above sections; just... discuss! Better than edit warring. — Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 10:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, this was a bit of a 'wow' moment for me, and it's an article that I think we should all take a look at. I honestly wasn't on a 'fishing' trip for the Dummies article. I thought I'd meander over and see if I could find any solid academic mentions to flesh out that section a bit more, when I ran across this article:
InfoTech & Public Policy - WWS 528F Course Blog, Spring 2007 http://courseblog.cs.princeton.edu/spring07/wws528f/?p=57
I did take the time to verify it really was from Princeton U. (It's actually offered there, and from and from one of their schools, the 'Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs'). Here is a link listing the course and its description:
If you scroll down the article, they have a number of quotes showing how Essjay used his credentials and the book, as weight in his remarks:
I tried to find out more about Bill Zellers the student that wrote the blog, he may or may not be the same Bill Zellers that created myTunes (Bill Zellers that is a first year grad student, and the article is in the Princetonian, more importantly, the professor that runs the class that has the blog, figure prominantly in the article [Computer science professor Ed Felten]). http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/03/14/news/17721.shtml
I figured that this being mentioned in a course blog for a class in Information Technology and Public Policy at Princeton, by student who might be the the creator of myTunes, was probably worth mentioning. -- Kavri 07:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Essjay in his own words:
** I do not believe this to be correct. An individual bishop has no power outside his diocese to forbid anything to be printed, thus he cannot offer a nihil obstat, only an imprimatur, which certifies that the text is free from moral error....Unless of course he is the Bishop of Rome. However, the censor, who is an agent of the Roman Curia/Holy See may certainly place a text on the "blacklist" of heretical publications. I believe the entry to be correct as it reads, and I offer as my reference the text "Catholicism for Dummies" by Trigilio (Ph.D./Th.D.) and Brighenti (Ph.D.). The text offers a Nihil Obstat from the Rev. Daniel J. Mahan, STB, STL, Censor Librorum, and an Imprimatur from the Rev. Msgr. Joseph F. Schaedel, Vicar General. This is a text I often require for my students, and I would hang my own Ph.D. on it's credibility.
Take a quick look at this link. It seems someone was flashing their false credentials. This is relevant, notable, and part of the whole story. :) - Mr.Guru ( talk/ contribs) 08:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Link.
-- Link.
-- Link.
-- Link.
Now... I don't like self-referencing... but as this is Essjay at the same time speaking as a primary source, with his faked credentials... how does that work with policy in that case? I.e., if Jimmy says something official as a primary source of the WMF on his Wikipedia talk page, or an article talk page... is that OK? If so, that would mean these Essjay quotes are OK to flesh out and illustrate in the article how he gamed us all/the system. unless I'm misunderstanding. - Denny 13:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm saying that the article's assertion that Wales fired Essjay because Essjay asserted his MUD credentials in edits is WP:OR. Wales didn't cite that specifically as the reason. Erm, my own OR take on as to why, is that Essjay was fired only for PR reasons, which would handily explain why JW didn't go into more detail about it. Gwen Gale 13:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Kavri here. Okay, I just want to see if I have my head wrapped around this correctly. Obviously the first three quotes don't work as they were changed. (Thanks Denny for the links). However, we have a quote by Essjay showing he used Dummies in a fraudlent manner (not as the source, but as his referring to it in the capacity of his false credentials). So...We CAN say that he used false credentials because we have independent outside sources, but we CAN'T actually use
Because while true/existing, we have no verifiable outside source referring to it? Correct? -- (hoping maybe I got it right this time) Kavri 14:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
"However, upon realizing that Essjay had relied upon them in the context of discussing article content, Wales asked for Essjay's resignation"
Nor is it written in a proper manner. Who knows what Wales was thinking? All we can say is that Wales later changed his mind, or quote Wales if he said some such thing. e.g.:
"Wales later reversed his decision and asked for Essjay's resignation."
or
"Wales later reversed his decision, and in a statement he said "blah blah" [1], and asked for Essjay's resignation."
Similarly one cannot say, "Facing a whirlwind of anxiety over problems with Eva Braun, Hitler decided to invade Poland." One can only say, "Hitler invaded Poland." It is still possible to draw a causal connection between two statements (if appropriate), e.g. "Eva Braun broke off the relationship with Hitler. Hitler then invaded Poland." (silly example but makes my point). - Abscissa 10:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Related to this, do any of the RS specifically say when Wikia/the WMF/Jimbo knew the truth about Essjay not being a scholar/professor? - Denny 13:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I also support Abscissa's proposed changes and I have edited the sentence in question. 100DashSix 08:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essjay_controversy/sandbox
I put this up with the picture, and with the Timeline (which begins with the New Yorker article) down in the... well, New Yorker section. I think it works much, much better, from physical layouts, is better looking, and adds much. Lets see if we can get concensus on this. This is what I support, for layout/timeline/image. Take a look. - Denny 13:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I didn't weigh in on the photo, I was waiting for the dust to settle, as I know little about GFDL and fair use and such. Now that it has been settled that the phote can be used, I'll offer my opinion:
Mostly neutral, lean towards it being kept out (can't verify its him, 'he' isn't so much the subject as the controversy itself). However, no objections if its kept (I do like the implication that someone who wanted anonymity uploaded it). If it is included, my preference would be to see it in the lead. So, there you have it a very weak keep out/neutral. -- Kavri 16:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essjay_controversy/sandbox#The_New_Yorker_interview
Dropped down to this section. Keep it there, one line, triple sourced, good spot after it tooks about his degrees. Yay/nay? - Denny 13:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The link above is taking me to a sandbox page that doesn't contain anything. Was it deleted? I went there once and it was there...but later when I went back, couldn't see it. (Hopes I didn't some how delete the content...eep) -- Kavri 14:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to edit the sandbox as well--thats what it's for, to hash this out. don't take it as "Denny's Version" or anything like that... - Denny 15:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I've edited the sandbox by putting in a section stripped of references for readability, to get opinions. I've made an alternate beginning that puts the Kentucky info back up into the lede, where it originally was, and changed the 'has claimed to hold' to 'claimed to have held'. I've also added the name of the New Yorker for the phone interview, and dropped the bit about Kentucy as it is replaced by the entire Kentucky section going back up there.-- Kavri 16:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Opinions ??? I would like to know what people think of the alternte beginning, with the article semi-protected, I don't want to put the whole thing in, though I did put the Kentucky courier stuff back up to the lede, it makes no sense in the New Yorker section. However, I think the alternate 'is' a better beginning. Anyone want to comment??? -- Kavri 02:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
The photo uploaded by Essjay supposedly of Essjay needs to return. Reliable sources have published the picture. It's absence here is a disservice to the comprehensiveness of this article. Johntex\ talk 04:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
We can use it however concensus decides and have no legal worries... - Denny 05:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Disappointed to see that the image of Essjay was inserted back in with a notation that it was "with consensus" - nonsense. There is no consensus on this issue yet, as I noted less than two hours ago. Please discuss reasons that this photo of a private individual should and should not be included in the article. Risker 19:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent)It is clear we still do not have consensus about this photo. I am very hesitant to include it. As a general practice, photos of individuals are not included in articles such as this, unless they are criminally convicted or charged, or are public figures in their own right or of their own volition. Yes, the Siegenthaler entry has a picture of Siegenthaler; however, that is a screenshot from when he voluntarily became a public figure by speaking on CNN. Nobody has identified another source that used this photo except for ABC - and even then it appeared, distorted, for a total of three seconds; one cannot argue that it was used widely. Using a photo of Essjay - Ryan - changes the focus of the article from the controversy to the individual. As we well know, an article about Essjay the editor will not survive. Risker 20:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Apparently there's an edit war over whether or not to mention Essjay's use of Catholicism for Dummies. Why should we mention it? Why shouldn't we? — Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 05:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Discussion started here [3]...but shall we continue in this new section created by the very friendly MessedRocker? Risker 05:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
It would be wrong to delete this fact from the article. The mainstream media thought it was important enough to report. The very fact that some people think it speaks well of Essjay (Great, he used a book as a source!) and that some people think it comes across as negative (Ewee he used that book?) means that we should include the fact and let the reader weigh the facts. Johntex\ talk 05:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind if you discuss in the above sections; just... discuss! Better than edit warring. — Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 10:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, this was a bit of a 'wow' moment for me, and it's an article that I think we should all take a look at. I honestly wasn't on a 'fishing' trip for the Dummies article. I thought I'd meander over and see if I could find any solid academic mentions to flesh out that section a bit more, when I ran across this article:
InfoTech & Public Policy - WWS 528F Course Blog, Spring 2007 http://courseblog.cs.princeton.edu/spring07/wws528f/?p=57
I did take the time to verify it really was from Princeton U. (It's actually offered there, and from and from one of their schools, the 'Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs'). Here is a link listing the course and its description:
If you scroll down the article, they have a number of quotes showing how Essjay used his credentials and the book, as weight in his remarks:
I tried to find out more about Bill Zellers the student that wrote the blog, he may or may not be the same Bill Zellers that created myTunes (Bill Zellers that is a first year grad student, and the article is in the Princetonian, more importantly, the professor that runs the class that has the blog, figure prominantly in the article [Computer science professor Ed Felten]). http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/03/14/news/17721.shtml
I figured that this being mentioned in a course blog for a class in Information Technology and Public Policy at Princeton, by student who might be the the creator of myTunes, was probably worth mentioning. -- Kavri 07:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Essjay in his own words:
** I do not believe this to be correct. An individual bishop has no power outside his diocese to forbid anything to be printed, thus he cannot offer a nihil obstat, only an imprimatur, which certifies that the text is free from moral error....Unless of course he is the Bishop of Rome. However, the censor, who is an agent of the Roman Curia/Holy See may certainly place a text on the "blacklist" of heretical publications. I believe the entry to be correct as it reads, and I offer as my reference the text "Catholicism for Dummies" by Trigilio (Ph.D./Th.D.) and Brighenti (Ph.D.). The text offers a Nihil Obstat from the Rev. Daniel J. Mahan, STB, STL, Censor Librorum, and an Imprimatur from the Rev. Msgr. Joseph F. Schaedel, Vicar General. This is a text I often require for my students, and I would hang my own Ph.D. on it's credibility.
Take a quick look at this link. It seems someone was flashing their false credentials. This is relevant, notable, and part of the whole story. :) - Mr.Guru ( talk/ contribs) 08:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Link.
-- Link.
-- Link.
-- Link.
Now... I don't like self-referencing... but as this is Essjay at the same time speaking as a primary source, with his faked credentials... how does that work with policy in that case? I.e., if Jimmy says something official as a primary source of the WMF on his Wikipedia talk page, or an article talk page... is that OK? If so, that would mean these Essjay quotes are OK to flesh out and illustrate in the article how he gamed us all/the system. unless I'm misunderstanding. - Denny 13:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm saying that the article's assertion that Wales fired Essjay because Essjay asserted his MUD credentials in edits is WP:OR. Wales didn't cite that specifically as the reason. Erm, my own OR take on as to why, is that Essjay was fired only for PR reasons, which would handily explain why JW didn't go into more detail about it. Gwen Gale 13:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Kavri here. Okay, I just want to see if I have my head wrapped around this correctly. Obviously the first three quotes don't work as they were changed. (Thanks Denny for the links). However, we have a quote by Essjay showing he used Dummies in a fraudlent manner (not as the source, but as his referring to it in the capacity of his false credentials). So...We CAN say that he used false credentials because we have independent outside sources, but we CAN'T actually use
Because while true/existing, we have no verifiable outside source referring to it? Correct? -- (hoping maybe I got it right this time) Kavri 14:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
"However, upon realizing that Essjay had relied upon them in the context of discussing article content, Wales asked for Essjay's resignation"
Nor is it written in a proper manner. Who knows what Wales was thinking? All we can say is that Wales later changed his mind, or quote Wales if he said some such thing. e.g.:
"Wales later reversed his decision and asked for Essjay's resignation."
or
"Wales later reversed his decision, and in a statement he said "blah blah" [1], and asked for Essjay's resignation."
Similarly one cannot say, "Facing a whirlwind of anxiety over problems with Eva Braun, Hitler decided to invade Poland." One can only say, "Hitler invaded Poland." It is still possible to draw a causal connection between two statements (if appropriate), e.g. "Eva Braun broke off the relationship with Hitler. Hitler then invaded Poland." (silly example but makes my point). - Abscissa 10:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Related to this, do any of the RS specifically say when Wikia/the WMF/Jimbo knew the truth about Essjay not being a scholar/professor? - Denny 13:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I also support Abscissa's proposed changes and I have edited the sentence in question. 100DashSix 08:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essjay_controversy/sandbox
I put this up with the picture, and with the Timeline (which begins with the New Yorker article) down in the... well, New Yorker section. I think it works much, much better, from physical layouts, is better looking, and adds much. Lets see if we can get concensus on this. This is what I support, for layout/timeline/image. Take a look. - Denny 13:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I didn't weigh in on the photo, I was waiting for the dust to settle, as I know little about GFDL and fair use and such. Now that it has been settled that the phote can be used, I'll offer my opinion:
Mostly neutral, lean towards it being kept out (can't verify its him, 'he' isn't so much the subject as the controversy itself). However, no objections if its kept (I do like the implication that someone who wanted anonymity uploaded it). If it is included, my preference would be to see it in the lead. So, there you have it a very weak keep out/neutral. -- Kavri 16:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essjay_controversy/sandbox#The_New_Yorker_interview
Dropped down to this section. Keep it there, one line, triple sourced, good spot after it tooks about his degrees. Yay/nay? - Denny 13:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The link above is taking me to a sandbox page that doesn't contain anything. Was it deleted? I went there once and it was there...but later when I went back, couldn't see it. (Hopes I didn't some how delete the content...eep) -- Kavri 14:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to edit the sandbox as well--thats what it's for, to hash this out. don't take it as "Denny's Version" or anything like that... - Denny 15:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I've edited the sandbox by putting in a section stripped of references for readability, to get opinions. I've made an alternate beginning that puts the Kentucky info back up into the lede, where it originally was, and changed the 'has claimed to hold' to 'claimed to have held'. I've also added the name of the New Yorker for the phone interview, and dropped the bit about Kentucy as it is replaced by the entire Kentucky section going back up there.-- Kavri 16:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Opinions ??? I would like to know what people think of the alternte beginning, with the article semi-protected, I don't want to put the whole thing in, though I did put the Kentucky courier stuff back up to the lede, it makes no sense in the New Yorker section. However, I think the alternate 'is' a better beginning. Anyone want to comment??? -- Kavri 02:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)