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Done
Why doesn't the article mention Jimmy Wales' letter of apology in the March 19 edition of the New Yorker? Has anyone else read it yet? Geuiwogbil 21:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I am writing to apologize to The New Yorker and Stacy Schiff, and to give some follow-up concerning Ryan Jordan (Editors' Note, March 5th). When I last spoke to The New Yorker about the fact that a prominent Wikipedia community member had lied about his credentials, I misjudged the issue. It was not O.K. for Mr. Jordan, or Essjay, to lie to a reporter, even to protect his identity. I later learned more about the deceptions involved and asked Mr. Jordan to resign from his positions of responsibility at Wikipedia. He has since resigned from his position at Wikia as well. Mr. Jordan is a wonderful and thoughtful young man who made a series of very bad judgements. I consider him a friend, and I hope that the world will allow him to move forward in peace and dignity to regain his honor through a life well lived. Wikipedia is built on trust and love. Our trust has been broken, and only love can rebuild it. The community has begun discussing a proposal of mine that we adopt some verification measures for claimed credentials, so that Wikipedia may further improve from this painful experience.
Jimmy Wales
President of Wikia, Inc.; board member and Chairman Emeritus of the Wikimedia Foundation
St. Petersburg, Fla.
What an extremely odd thing, that the print version of a magazine that has been continually published for over eighty years should be considered less of a "verifiable source" than its online version. For those of us who remember a world before the internet, the idea of receiving the April issue of a magazine in March is as unremarkable as the notion that we might have to actually visit the library to look something up in a book or magazine. There are more reliable sources in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are available online.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.204.105.10 ( talk • contribs)
User:C.m.jones just removed the letter and accompanying info. Just to note. Geuiwogbil 02:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
...Though he didn't remove it from the accompanying infobox. Geuiwogbil 02:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I broke the introduction into an intro and new section, "initial reaction"
I broke the new intro section into two paragraphs
I got rid of the 'box within a box' contents ( the TOChidden )
I widened the Timeline box (from 20em to 30em...hope that doesn't go in the face of policy)
My intention was a less cluttered and more readable beginning to the article
NOTE: I just made the changes instead of trying to describe them all, if i've broken policy regarding size of boxes, or if people in general dislike, it isn't a problem, feel free to revert...however, I'd appreciate it staying long enough for a few people to weigh in, rather than the first person to see it re-verting it. Thanks.
Since it didn't refer to content, I figured I'd try the 'be Bold' credo *grin* -- Kavri 04:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Apparently the timeline box takes up too much space on 1024x768 resolution, so it was changed from 30em to 30% by Ned Scott. -- Kavri 05:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with the revert, what prompted me in the first place, was that I disliked how 'scrunched up' the Timeline box seemed, and how it slopped over into the 'New York Times' section. As mentioned, it was easier for me to just go ahead and make the change, and call for reactions to it, than to try and explain the format (a picture is worth a thousand words? *grin*). I do like the TOChidden staying out (apologies to Netscott). As to lede, I guess I was looking at it more as a summary lede, where the initial incident was the lede, and the wider implications were the story...and saw the reaction as two seperate portions, the reaction to the initial incident, and then later, the reaction to the larger implications. That said, it still works perfectly fine the way it is now, and I'm just mentioning my thoughts on it, NOT arguing for my format change (I figure its best to explicity state that, given the intensity surrounding the article and the editing of it). By the way, for those that may not not much about ledes, this is a nice site to explain it ( http://www.uark.edu/~kshurlds/FOJ/HW2.html). And Casey, thanks for the head's up, but no harshness detected at all. *smile*. -- Kavri 20:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Risker 19:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
==International Flavour : French/French-Canadian articles Continuing from discussion from the Maclean's section above.
Canada is a bilingual country, French and English. In the Province of Quebec, which is a majority French, and New Brunswick, which is heavily (not sure about majority) French, one can often easily have access to French media from both Canada and France. As well, Ottawa, the nation's capital, has media in both languages readily available, as all government employees are both French and English, usually. As well, Nova Scotia has several historically important French enclaves. Just a bit of background on why I'm tossing out some French links, rather than say them going to the French version of Wikipedia, though they could go either place as far as I'm concerned. Again, I'm not going to touch content on this one, just giving info for others to discuss. My french is pretty basic, so please don't put too much stock in my interpretation.
http://www2.canoe.com/techno/nouvelles/archives/2007/03/20070307-193504.html Associated Press (AP) 07/03/2007 19h35
The title roughly translates to something like, 'Experts will have to identify themselves on Wikipedia'. It seems to contain the usual facts that are already in the 'Essjay controversy' article. However, there is one part that seems to be saying that an idea proposed at Wikipedia two years ago, is now resurfacing due to the controversy. Was there some sort of identity/credential issue that hit the news two years ago?
Sidenote:I am a firm believer in the idea of using 'a' founder or no mention of founder at all This article uses 'founder' -- Kavri 00:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The article also mentions that ordinary editors can remain anonymous:
Jimmy Wales, fondateur de Wikipedia, a déclaré lors d'entretiens au téléphone et d'échanges de messages instantanés mercredi depuis le Japon que les auteurs en ligne pourraient rester anonymes tant qu'ils ne se présenteraient pas comme des professionnels dans leur domaine. Dans ce cas, ils devront produire leurs diplômes.
Translation: Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia said during telephone interviews and emails from Japan, on Wednesday, that editors can remain anonymous as long as they do not present themselves as experts in their field. In such cases they have to submit their diplomas (credentials). Ivygohnair 07:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www2.canoe.com/techno/nouvelles/archives/2007/03/20070307-121606.html Canoë D'après la BBC News 07/03/2007 12h16
Um, little less sure of this, but seems to be saying 'A false professor ceases his activities as editor and arbitrator at Wikipedia. The article contains a picture of J. Wales
Sidenote:I am a firm believer in the idea of using 'a' founder or no mention of founder at all This article uses 'co-founder' -- Kavri 00:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the article just reports what has been said about the background of the controversy.
The last few paras may be of interest:
Le 3 mars dernier, Jimmy Wales, co-fondateur de Wikipedia, écrit sur le site que malgré le repentir de M. Jordan, il ne faut pas perdre de vue que «Wikipedia repose sur les piliers jumeaux de la confiance et de la tolérance».
«Même si je lui pardonne personnellement, j’espère qu’il acceptera de remettre sa démission parce que pardon ou pas, les décisions qu’il a prises sont tout à fait inappropriées», écrit Wales. M. Jordan annonce finalement qu’il se retire du site dans un texte publié le jour suivant sur Wikipedia. «J’espère que maintenant, les gens sauront canaliser toute l’énergie dépensée ces jours derniers - à me défendre ou à me dénoncer – vers des objectifs bénéfiques à Wikipedia»,écrit-il.
Translation: Jimmy Wales the co-founder of Wikipedia, wrote on Wikipedia, the 3 march, that despite the confession of Mr Jordan, it must not be forgotten that Wikipedia is based on the twin pillars of trust and tolerance.
"Even if I personally forgive him, I hope that he will agree to submit his resignation, because forgive or not, the decisions he has made are completely inappropriate", wrote Wales.
Finally Mr Jordan announced in a post on Wikipedia the following day the he would retire from the site: "I hope now that people will be able to transfer all the energy spent these last few days- on defending or attacking me- to improving Wikepedia", he wrote. Ivygohnair 07:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-651865,36-880852@51-837044,0.html LEMONDE.FR | 08.03.07 | 15h01 • Mis à jour le 09.03.07 | 16h16
Hmm...really not sure of the translation, 'to face discovery'?...its also the title of a book by a Canadian politician, so it might be some sort of phrase with a non-literal meaning. La Monde is a publication from France, but is widely available in French or cosmopolitan areas of Canada. For whatever reasons, the article made the use of the Catholicism for Dummies one its headings. My French wasn't up to understanding this article very well, but of note is that it links to the 'Essjay Controversy' article here (ie in the English Wikipedia)
Sidenote:I am a firm believer in the idea of using 'a' founder or no mention of founder at all
This article uses 'Father of Wikipedia' (at least that is my presumption, of what 'la papa de Wikipedia' translates as.
--
Kavri
00:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
A visage découvert simply means "Uncovered" or "Exposed" in English. The heading "Catholicism for Dummies" is just usual newspaper editing for the following paragraph which mentions that Essjay sourced from this.
"Le Monde" is one of the leading newspapers in France known for its intellectual content. The article is well-written but adds nothing new to what has already been reported in the media. Ivygohnair 07:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss content changes to this article here on the talk page before making them. Three edits were made in short order by different editors that changed the entire POV of the article. I have reverted to the state before those edits, please discuss them here before re-editing. Risker 02:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
upon using these false credentials in "content disputes" [1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=115468890&oldid=115461506
I added better detail to a sentence. Please discuss before removing next time. Adding more detail improved the article. :) Mr.Guru ( talk/ contribs) 02:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I have been for several days in a remote part of India with little or no Internet access. I only learned this morning that EssJay used his false credentials in content disputes. I understood this to be primarily the matter of a pseudonymous identity (something very mild and completely understandable given the personal dangers possible on the Internet) and not a matter of violation of people's trust. I want to make it perfectly clear that my past support of EssJay in this matter was fully based on a lack of knowledge about what has been going on. Even now, I have not been able to check diffs, etc. I have asked EssJay to resign his positions of trust within the community. In terms of the full parameters of what happens next, I advise (as usual) that we take a calm, loving, and reasonable approach. From the moment this whole thing became known, EssJay has been contrite and apologetic. People who characterize him as being "proud" of it or "bragging" are badly mistake. [1]
I am willing to be persuaded. My absurdist sense of humour is having a real chuckle over the idea of an edit war over any book title that includes the word "Dummies." Let's discuss please. Risker 04:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'll jump in with my opinion (can't resist being part of the 'Dummy War'...*grin*). The article currently says, and had relied on sources such as Catholicism for Dummies[9] when editing articles Currently I'm working on an article about Canadian poet Dorothy Lovesay, it exists, but I'd like to expand it. One of the sources I'm relying on for my edit is '15 Canadian Poets Plus 5'. My point? There is NOTHING wrong or incorrect about using a book as a source for editing an article. Under that reasoning, I think it should be dropped.
However, if one can show that he used the book in context of backing up or refering to his credentials as a theology professor, than I am fine with its inclusion in some form. I do recall someone quoting/saying he had made a remark about having his students read it, when someone challenged him on using it as a source... if that is true, then some sort of quote, or summary, saying he used the book under the auspices of his credentials, would, imo, need to be included.
Just saying he used a book as a source for an edit, in and of itself makes it appear as if this is somehow 'wrong', and is extraneous to the article in general. -- Kavri 04:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Its noteworthy as multiple non-trivial RS have covered it, but it's hardly central to the story. Either drop it towards a later part of the article or keep it in the lead is fine--but it must be included for completeness... - Denny 05:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Noting the book is fine, but clearly its use in the lead is.. wrong.. for many reasons. Even if you disagree with one of those reasons, we've got about 10 other reasons not to mention the book there and in that way. It's like everyone here just expects things to be controversial preemptively.. Calm down, people. -- Ned Scott 05:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Issues:
IF it is used, does it go in the lede, or later in the article.
Inclusion
Exclusion
-- Kavri 05:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Johntex, I respect your opinion on this matter, and on the whole agree with you. Unfortunately, there are a lot of editors and admins who vehemently disagree with that interpretation. In an article as contentious as this one (AfD #4 is due any time now), it behooves us to go the extra mile to find the best possible sources - and the sources least susceptible to challenge - for every item. (Sorry, forgot to sign this at the time, this edit was by me Risker)
Now...there are fine sources for the Catholicism for Dummies reference; it seems there is more or less agreement that if it is moved out of the lead, most of the editors around here are comfortable with keeping it in. Have we reached consensus? And if so, does someone want to draft up the sentence and let MessedRocker know? Risker 07:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I have some new info, it's a long entry, so will start new section PS - that means scrolling down past the photo section -- Kavri 07:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Er, a lot of you seem to be forgetting that someone who claimed to have a doctorate in Canon Law was using a book for people who don't know anything about Catholicism to make his edits. I think that speaks for the quality of the book, sure, but it also says something about Essjay. Include it -- just include it later on in the article, not in the lead. --
Dookama
09:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
(UTC)
I risk sounding old-fashioned, but I can't resist adding that common sense points to the fact that if we forbid even the mentioning of the book, are we not being biased (violating WP:NPOV) ourselves and practising some form of censorship? Ivygohnair 10:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Done
Why doesn't the article mention Jimmy Wales' letter of apology in the March 19 edition of the New Yorker? Has anyone else read it yet? Geuiwogbil 21:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I am writing to apologize to The New Yorker and Stacy Schiff, and to give some follow-up concerning Ryan Jordan (Editors' Note, March 5th). When I last spoke to The New Yorker about the fact that a prominent Wikipedia community member had lied about his credentials, I misjudged the issue. It was not O.K. for Mr. Jordan, or Essjay, to lie to a reporter, even to protect his identity. I later learned more about the deceptions involved and asked Mr. Jordan to resign from his positions of responsibility at Wikipedia. He has since resigned from his position at Wikia as well. Mr. Jordan is a wonderful and thoughtful young man who made a series of very bad judgements. I consider him a friend, and I hope that the world will allow him to move forward in peace and dignity to regain his honor through a life well lived. Wikipedia is built on trust and love. Our trust has been broken, and only love can rebuild it. The community has begun discussing a proposal of mine that we adopt some verification measures for claimed credentials, so that Wikipedia may further improve from this painful experience.
Jimmy Wales
President of Wikia, Inc.; board member and Chairman Emeritus of the Wikimedia Foundation
St. Petersburg, Fla.
What an extremely odd thing, that the print version of a magazine that has been continually published for over eighty years should be considered less of a "verifiable source" than its online version. For those of us who remember a world before the internet, the idea of receiving the April issue of a magazine in March is as unremarkable as the notion that we might have to actually visit the library to look something up in a book or magazine. There are more reliable sources in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are available online.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.204.105.10 ( talk • contribs)
User:C.m.jones just removed the letter and accompanying info. Just to note. Geuiwogbil 02:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
...Though he didn't remove it from the accompanying infobox. Geuiwogbil 02:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I broke the introduction into an intro and new section, "initial reaction"
I broke the new intro section into two paragraphs
I got rid of the 'box within a box' contents ( the TOChidden )
I widened the Timeline box (from 20em to 30em...hope that doesn't go in the face of policy)
My intention was a less cluttered and more readable beginning to the article
NOTE: I just made the changes instead of trying to describe them all, if i've broken policy regarding size of boxes, or if people in general dislike, it isn't a problem, feel free to revert...however, I'd appreciate it staying long enough for a few people to weigh in, rather than the first person to see it re-verting it. Thanks.
Since it didn't refer to content, I figured I'd try the 'be Bold' credo *grin* -- Kavri 04:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Apparently the timeline box takes up too much space on 1024x768 resolution, so it was changed from 30em to 30% by Ned Scott. -- Kavri 05:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with the revert, what prompted me in the first place, was that I disliked how 'scrunched up' the Timeline box seemed, and how it slopped over into the 'New York Times' section. As mentioned, it was easier for me to just go ahead and make the change, and call for reactions to it, than to try and explain the format (a picture is worth a thousand words? *grin*). I do like the TOChidden staying out (apologies to Netscott). As to lede, I guess I was looking at it more as a summary lede, where the initial incident was the lede, and the wider implications were the story...and saw the reaction as two seperate portions, the reaction to the initial incident, and then later, the reaction to the larger implications. That said, it still works perfectly fine the way it is now, and I'm just mentioning my thoughts on it, NOT arguing for my format change (I figure its best to explicity state that, given the intensity surrounding the article and the editing of it). By the way, for those that may not not much about ledes, this is a nice site to explain it ( http://www.uark.edu/~kshurlds/FOJ/HW2.html). And Casey, thanks for the head's up, but no harshness detected at all. *smile*. -- Kavri 20:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Risker 19:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
==International Flavour : French/French-Canadian articles Continuing from discussion from the Maclean's section above.
Canada is a bilingual country, French and English. In the Province of Quebec, which is a majority French, and New Brunswick, which is heavily (not sure about majority) French, one can often easily have access to French media from both Canada and France. As well, Ottawa, the nation's capital, has media in both languages readily available, as all government employees are both French and English, usually. As well, Nova Scotia has several historically important French enclaves. Just a bit of background on why I'm tossing out some French links, rather than say them going to the French version of Wikipedia, though they could go either place as far as I'm concerned. Again, I'm not going to touch content on this one, just giving info for others to discuss. My french is pretty basic, so please don't put too much stock in my interpretation.
http://www2.canoe.com/techno/nouvelles/archives/2007/03/20070307-193504.html Associated Press (AP) 07/03/2007 19h35
The title roughly translates to something like, 'Experts will have to identify themselves on Wikipedia'. It seems to contain the usual facts that are already in the 'Essjay controversy' article. However, there is one part that seems to be saying that an idea proposed at Wikipedia two years ago, is now resurfacing due to the controversy. Was there some sort of identity/credential issue that hit the news two years ago?
Sidenote:I am a firm believer in the idea of using 'a' founder or no mention of founder at all This article uses 'founder' -- Kavri 00:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The article also mentions that ordinary editors can remain anonymous:
Jimmy Wales, fondateur de Wikipedia, a déclaré lors d'entretiens au téléphone et d'échanges de messages instantanés mercredi depuis le Japon que les auteurs en ligne pourraient rester anonymes tant qu'ils ne se présenteraient pas comme des professionnels dans leur domaine. Dans ce cas, ils devront produire leurs diplômes.
Translation: Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia said during telephone interviews and emails from Japan, on Wednesday, that editors can remain anonymous as long as they do not present themselves as experts in their field. In such cases they have to submit their diplomas (credentials). Ivygohnair 07:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www2.canoe.com/techno/nouvelles/archives/2007/03/20070307-121606.html Canoë D'après la BBC News 07/03/2007 12h16
Um, little less sure of this, but seems to be saying 'A false professor ceases his activities as editor and arbitrator at Wikipedia. The article contains a picture of J. Wales
Sidenote:I am a firm believer in the idea of using 'a' founder or no mention of founder at all This article uses 'co-founder' -- Kavri 00:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Most of the article just reports what has been said about the background of the controversy.
The last few paras may be of interest:
Le 3 mars dernier, Jimmy Wales, co-fondateur de Wikipedia, écrit sur le site que malgré le repentir de M. Jordan, il ne faut pas perdre de vue que «Wikipedia repose sur les piliers jumeaux de la confiance et de la tolérance».
«Même si je lui pardonne personnellement, j’espère qu’il acceptera de remettre sa démission parce que pardon ou pas, les décisions qu’il a prises sont tout à fait inappropriées», écrit Wales. M. Jordan annonce finalement qu’il se retire du site dans un texte publié le jour suivant sur Wikipedia. «J’espère que maintenant, les gens sauront canaliser toute l’énergie dépensée ces jours derniers - à me défendre ou à me dénoncer – vers des objectifs bénéfiques à Wikipedia»,écrit-il.
Translation: Jimmy Wales the co-founder of Wikipedia, wrote on Wikipedia, the 3 march, that despite the confession of Mr Jordan, it must not be forgotten that Wikipedia is based on the twin pillars of trust and tolerance.
"Even if I personally forgive him, I hope that he will agree to submit his resignation, because forgive or not, the decisions he has made are completely inappropriate", wrote Wales.
Finally Mr Jordan announced in a post on Wikipedia the following day the he would retire from the site: "I hope now that people will be able to transfer all the energy spent these last few days- on defending or attacking me- to improving Wikepedia", he wrote. Ivygohnair 07:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-651865,36-880852@51-837044,0.html LEMONDE.FR | 08.03.07 | 15h01 • Mis à jour le 09.03.07 | 16h16
Hmm...really not sure of the translation, 'to face discovery'?...its also the title of a book by a Canadian politician, so it might be some sort of phrase with a non-literal meaning. La Monde is a publication from France, but is widely available in French or cosmopolitan areas of Canada. For whatever reasons, the article made the use of the Catholicism for Dummies one its headings. My French wasn't up to understanding this article very well, but of note is that it links to the 'Essjay Controversy' article here (ie in the English Wikipedia)
Sidenote:I am a firm believer in the idea of using 'a' founder or no mention of founder at all
This article uses 'Father of Wikipedia' (at least that is my presumption, of what 'la papa de Wikipedia' translates as.
--
Kavri
00:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
A visage découvert simply means "Uncovered" or "Exposed" in English. The heading "Catholicism for Dummies" is just usual newspaper editing for the following paragraph which mentions that Essjay sourced from this.
"Le Monde" is one of the leading newspapers in France known for its intellectual content. The article is well-written but adds nothing new to what has already been reported in the media. Ivygohnair 07:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss content changes to this article here on the talk page before making them. Three edits were made in short order by different editors that changed the entire POV of the article. I have reverted to the state before those edits, please discuss them here before re-editing. Risker 02:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
upon using these false credentials in "content disputes" [1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Essjay_controversy&diff=115468890&oldid=115461506
I added better detail to a sentence. Please discuss before removing next time. Adding more detail improved the article. :) Mr.Guru ( talk/ contribs) 02:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I have been for several days in a remote part of India with little or no Internet access. I only learned this morning that EssJay used his false credentials in content disputes. I understood this to be primarily the matter of a pseudonymous identity (something very mild and completely understandable given the personal dangers possible on the Internet) and not a matter of violation of people's trust. I want to make it perfectly clear that my past support of EssJay in this matter was fully based on a lack of knowledge about what has been going on. Even now, I have not been able to check diffs, etc. I have asked EssJay to resign his positions of trust within the community. In terms of the full parameters of what happens next, I advise (as usual) that we take a calm, loving, and reasonable approach. From the moment this whole thing became known, EssJay has been contrite and apologetic. People who characterize him as being "proud" of it or "bragging" are badly mistake. [1]
I am willing to be persuaded. My absurdist sense of humour is having a real chuckle over the idea of an edit war over any book title that includes the word "Dummies." Let's discuss please. Risker 04:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'll jump in with my opinion (can't resist being part of the 'Dummy War'...*grin*). The article currently says, and had relied on sources such as Catholicism for Dummies[9] when editing articles Currently I'm working on an article about Canadian poet Dorothy Lovesay, it exists, but I'd like to expand it. One of the sources I'm relying on for my edit is '15 Canadian Poets Plus 5'. My point? There is NOTHING wrong or incorrect about using a book as a source for editing an article. Under that reasoning, I think it should be dropped.
However, if one can show that he used the book in context of backing up or refering to his credentials as a theology professor, than I am fine with its inclusion in some form. I do recall someone quoting/saying he had made a remark about having his students read it, when someone challenged him on using it as a source... if that is true, then some sort of quote, or summary, saying he used the book under the auspices of his credentials, would, imo, need to be included.
Just saying he used a book as a source for an edit, in and of itself makes it appear as if this is somehow 'wrong', and is extraneous to the article in general. -- Kavri 04:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Its noteworthy as multiple non-trivial RS have covered it, but it's hardly central to the story. Either drop it towards a later part of the article or keep it in the lead is fine--but it must be included for completeness... - Denny 05:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Noting the book is fine, but clearly its use in the lead is.. wrong.. for many reasons. Even if you disagree with one of those reasons, we've got about 10 other reasons not to mention the book there and in that way. It's like everyone here just expects things to be controversial preemptively.. Calm down, people. -- Ned Scott 05:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Issues:
IF it is used, does it go in the lede, or later in the article.
Inclusion
Exclusion
-- Kavri 05:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Johntex, I respect your opinion on this matter, and on the whole agree with you. Unfortunately, there are a lot of editors and admins who vehemently disagree with that interpretation. In an article as contentious as this one (AfD #4 is due any time now), it behooves us to go the extra mile to find the best possible sources - and the sources least susceptible to challenge - for every item. (Sorry, forgot to sign this at the time, this edit was by me Risker)
Now...there are fine sources for the Catholicism for Dummies reference; it seems there is more or less agreement that if it is moved out of the lead, most of the editors around here are comfortable with keeping it in. Have we reached consensus? And if so, does someone want to draft up the sentence and let MessedRocker know? Risker 07:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I have some new info, it's a long entry, so will start new section PS - that means scrolling down past the photo section -- Kavri 07:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Er, a lot of you seem to be forgetting that someone who claimed to have a doctorate in Canon Law was using a book for people who don't know anything about Catholicism to make his edits. I think that speaks for the quality of the book, sure, but it also says something about Essjay. Include it -- just include it later on in the article, not in the lead. --
Dookama
09:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
(UTC)
I risk sounding old-fashioned, but I can't resist adding that common sense points to the fact that if we forbid even the mentioning of the book, are we not being biased (violating WP:NPOV) ourselves and practising some form of censorship? Ivygohnair 10:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)