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Why Iravan and not Erivan? What is the official transliteration from Persian?-- Eupator 15:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Uggh! I don't visit too often and there is already a discussion! As far as I know the Irevan, Erivan, Yerevan Iravan was written as آرون which allows any connotation. Turkish rulers of the khanate were pronouncing it as Iravan... Before Qajars reassembled Persia, khanate was pretty much independent and ottoman leaning ... Now I don't care really its the same name Abdulnr 01:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is some contemporary spelling on the coin from 1730
http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=12186&si=Yerevan&what=allfields
or: http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=23860&si=Yerevan&what=allfields Abdulnr 01:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting that the second coin (ottoman) is spelled without Alef (althought it is hard to read)which makes it Revan. Abdulnr 12:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
This is what you have when someone does not want to acknowledge a simple fact that the khanate was ruled by ethnic Azeri Turks. Grandmaster 05:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Look, we are not even saying that population was Turkish or Persian or Armenian (this is a different debate) , we are saying that rulers were turkic and not Persian (Farsi) In most of Persia the dynasties were of turkish (ic) beys with such names as Ustajlu, Bayat, Rumlu, Kengerli. I doubt there were a lot of Persians (I mean ethnically) bar civil admninistrators in Armenia in 18 century. Abdulnr 08:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Strange aversion to Turks here. They identified themselves first and foremost as Shia Muslims and then Turks, very unlikely Persian. For example Alevi turks (Shias on Anadolu, as Turkish as you can get) supported Persia and were persecuted. As for khanates, they in many case supplanted beglerbeys and were even more Turkic than governors before. But it depends on the khanate. Between 1747- 95 however, Persia did not exist, and some of the khanates were even under Ottomans. Abdulnr 16:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Well I proposed as you see - Azeri Kizilbash (which means Shia) Turks as opposed to Ottomans so it becomes clear for you. The Problem with saying Persian or Azerbaijani is that this places it out of historic context. nesimi 21:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Bakikhanov is quite objective - he is writing from 18century prospective not from modern point of view and wrote extensively in Persian.
What do you mean - sounds pretty harsh, Grandmaster supplied a good source abdulnr 18:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
During the existence of the Erivan khanate, its population consisted primarily of Persians (settled largely around the capital), Azerbaijanis (both settled and seminomadic), and Kurds (largely nomadic).[1] it is very "interesting" information. because the closest region to Erevan with Persian population it was and is now - Tehran and Gazvin - several hundreds km's distance. so from where Erevan khanate had Persian population? may be they were transported with helicopters? it's an absurde. Somebody didn't want say: ok, guys, sorry but Erivan Khanate was Azeri feudal stat as many other like Nakhichevan, Maku, Gandja etc... It is just politic, but not science...sorry.
Can anyone cite documents related to deportation of Armenians in 1605? A massive scale, small scale. PLease provide a source to satisfy my curiosity. Regards abdulnr 14:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. abdulnr 23:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Here are some good quotes from a military historian John Baddeley, which clarifies and reinforces the usage/translation of the word "khanate" as a "state" and not mere principality, as well as on the fact that at times (indeed, until 1804), Erivan khanate was independent from Iran. There are several more detailed quotes on how Eirvan was conquered, how brave and energetic the Khan of Erivan was, how he was sometimes victorious in his battles against Russia, etc.
"In 1804 Tsitsianoff, with about 10,000 men and 20 guns, marched on Erivan, another nominally independent khanate at that time actually threatened by a Persian army, but, for once, failed." (John F. Baddeley, "The Russian Conquest of the Caucasus", London: Longmans, Green and Co., 1908, p. 68)
"Potto sums up Tsitsianoff's achievements and character as follows: "In the short time he passed there (in Transcaucasia) he managed to completely alter the map of the country. He found it composed of minutely divided, independent Muhammadan States leaning upon Persia, namely, the khanates of Baku, Shirvan, Shekeen, Karabagh, Gandja, and Erivan, to which must also be added the territory of the Djaro-Bielokani Lesghians, the pashalik of Akhaltsikh, and the Turkish fortresses situated on the shores of the Black Sea." (ibid., pp. 71-72)
"Russia by this instrument [Gulistan Treaty of 1813 - ed.] was confirmed in possession of all the khanates -- Karabagh, Gandja, Shekeen, Shirvan, Derbend, Kouba, and Baku, together with parts of Talish and the fortress of Lenkoran. Persia further abandoned all pretensions to Daghestan, Georgia, Mingrelia, Imeretia, and Abkhasia." (ibid., p. 90) -- AdilBaguirov 07:17, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Adil you really need to stop and think for a little. Don't you think adding that kind of information to the article without discusson, without references would be reverted back???? Next time don't tell me that I don't use the discussion page when your doing it the same thing. ROOB323 09:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Artaxiad has been frequently found to purging damaging references, including the above one by ROOB323, today. I have restored it, for at least as long as ArbCom is going. After that, only myself, ROOB323 or admins have the moral authority to remove this disparaging attack. If you are so disturbed by this personal attack, you should express that to ROOB, and not try to quietly remove it. -- AdilBaguirov 06:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I added a quote, seems informative. Artaxiad 09:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
There are many references to "Erivan" khanate, including the one from Armenian scholar Bournoutian, not a single one calling it "Yerevan khanate" though. Please, provide justification for the edit removing the historical spellings and discuss them on the page. Thanks. Atabek ( talk) 05:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I corrected the article to reflect the fact that Azerbaijanis did not exist before the 20th c. I don't think the alternate spellings are notable, or even verifiable.-- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 05:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I see what I did became reverted. Yes, there is several ways to spell modern name for Yerevan. Problem is that Yerevan is in Armenian. The persian spelling is originally from Ilkhanid times and we see diverse spelling like Airavan, Irevan, Erevan and much more. The spelling used by EI is one I adopted. I thought it would be easy just to say Yerevan, but seems people are upset. I know Encyclopedia of Islam (English and Turkish version) will have articles about this and also the book by the American scholar Bournotian as someone above mentioned. His work is considered the most important work and most authorative on the topic and is a big book opposed to several page article in iranian encyclopedia. Also, anyone who studies this state will affeliate it with nothing but Persian empire of Safavids and Qajars and anyone between,. I studied bournoutian book beofre and he spends a lot to explain about ethnic groups of persians, kurds, armenians, and Turkic tribes (dozens!) with specific names and islaimc denominations, I think Qizil Bash, Qara Qoyunli (tribe name, not to be confused with famous states and organization associated with names), these Turkic people were not referred to as Azeris, but muslim tribesmen. I will get book soon and cite explanation for this. I understand and I share your sincere love to own people, its history and culture, but this has no any relation to modern republic of azerbaijan. 24.24.200.113 ( talk) 05:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC) also, if I am wrong, I ask for contributors to cite sources when they think to change me and revert me. 24.24.200.113 ( talk) 05:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually they were not even called Tartars back then. They were Turkic speaking Muslims.-- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 12:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Since the article is not about today, it needs to reflect contemporary terms. No need to use fictional names.-- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 07:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Replacing Azeris with Tatars is not a revert--in fact I had not done it in this article. At any rate, I removed both terms, so the point is moot.
The whole new segment added by the anon user describes the liberation of Armenia from the Turkic element after the Erivan khanate had been abolished. This process of cleansing was finally completed in 1989-90 (1992 in NK, with the capture of Shushi). It has nothing to do with the period of the Erivan khanate. -- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 10:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Your comment is of political nature. New segment is relevant to Erivan khanate and his subsequent history.-- Dacy69 ( talk) 19:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
An anon has been edit warring over the inclusion of Turkish spelling Revan Hanlığı on this article (and edit warring elsewhere), so I have semi-protected this article. I have reverted because there is a lot of talk discussion here that mentions Turkish history, and I dont think it hurts to include too many spellings. It might be useless information (most Wikipedia articles have snippets of useless information), but I fail to see why someone is getting so upset about it, which makes me suspicious it is nationalist editing. Any thoughts about the Turkish spelling? John Vandenberg ( chat) 12:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
In 2008, president
Ilham Aliyev, talking about Nagorno Karabakh, said: In 1918, Erivan was granted to the Armenians. It was a great mistake. The Erivan khanate was an Azeri territory, the Armenians were guests there
[6].
What's the opinion of the editors about adding this sentence to the article?--
Alborz Fallah (
talk) 21:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Why is the term Yerevan Province being used here..?!? The article which its redirected to is called Erivan Governorate, thus it should be named like that. I corrected this. Baku87 ( talk) 10:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Turkish was not written in Latin letters at the time. Any Turkish speakers in the region would be speaking the Azeri dialect (in addition to Persian and perhaps Kurdish), so khanate would be Romanized as khanlighi and not hanlığı, which is the reformed Turkish spelling that was introduced during the Kemalist reforms. If someone can find the actual Turkish name for the khanate in the original Arabic script, then please insert it. Thanks. Hakob ( talk) 01:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not think there is a need to add the town's name in Perso-Arabic script, when the Persian[Gajar] writing of the town is already there. It would only be duplication, since both spelling (Azeri and Farsi) of the town/province in this script would be the same. Only Azeri modern spelling should do it. -- Aynabend ( talk) 19:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC) It is a stupidity not to add name of khanete in Azerbaijani , give up your armenian stereo types and let us change some parts of article . Babak Khorramid —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaur heydarov ( talk • contribs) 07:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Please, no azeri hate welcome here. 194.186.188.249 ( talk) 16:50, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I added a lot of information and improved the format of the article. I would like some of the other users who previouslt editted to add more, maybe pictures. I think most important is to find more sources since Iranica is very limited and talks only about story from heavily Armenian context. More needs to be said of transformation of the territory from early administrative region to later khanate and it's history in context of caucasus history. I also fixed spelling.
I think there is no need to add the foreign Azerbaijani or Turkish spelling to this article. I do not understand why it needs to be added like spanish or chinese. Maybe armenian name can be added because it was like next to persian and self rule? I dont know, I think this article can be bigger. Regards. Shahin Giray ( talk) 03:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
1736-40 Tahmasp-qulu khan
1740-47 Nader Shah
1745-48 Mekhti-khan Qasımlı
1748-50 Hasan Ali-khan
1750-80 Huseyn Ali Khan
1752-55 Khalil Khan
1755-62 Hasan Ali Khan Qajar
1762-83 Huseyn Ali Khan
1783-84 Qulam Ali (son of Hasan Ali)
1784-1804 Muhammed Khan
1804-06 Mekhti-Qulu Khan
1806-07 Muhammed Khan Maragai
1807-27 Huseyn Qulu Khan Qajar
The word ...qulu in Azerbaijani (Turkic) means slave of.... The root of word is qul which means a slave in Azerbaijani (Turkic) which is followed by the suffix -u that has four forms -ı, - i, -u, -ü. This suffix expresses the idea of belonging to, being of the preceding subject.
Azerbaijani (Turkic) language as many other Turkic languages has the law called vowel harmony. According to this law relevant hard and soft vowels follow each other in harmony. This is why the noun qul is followed by the -u form of the suffix: qulu. Persian sources (nationalists) try to hide this truth spelling this word like qoli.
So, Huseyn Qulu means a slave of Huseyn. Huseyn is the name of the grandson of Islamic Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). Mainly Shias are proud to feel like the slaves of Huseyn, or his brother Hasan, or their father Ali, or imam Mekhti who is believed to return to the World once again, or other 11 imams.
Thus, the names Huseyn Qulu, Hasan Qulu, Mekhti Qulu, Abbas Qulu... are very common among Azerbaijani turks.
With Ali (the name of the fourth caliph, who had to be the first according to Shia thought) Azerbaijani people mostly use Qulam: Qulam Ali. -am is again an Azerbaijani (Turkic) suffix which has two forms: -am, -əm (or -yam, -yəm, after a vowel sound). This Suffix is again controlled by the law of vowel harmony: Qulam, where u and a follow each other, both of which are hard vowels in Azerbaijani language.
The suffix -am(-əm) means I am: Qulam = I am a slave. Thus Qulam Ali means: I am your slave, Ali in Azerbaijani (Turkic), not in Persian or any other language, but in Azerbaijani.
-lı, - li, -lu, lü, another vowel harmony-controlled Azerbaijani - turkic suffix which means from: Qasımlı = From Qasım.
Common-sense. Just think that one claims that Scottish are English, Tatars are Russians, Uyghurs are Chinese. These all sound illogical. All the cultural and art values that the Scottish, the Tatars and the Uyghurs have belong accordingly to the Scottish, the Tatars and the Uyghurs (not to the English, Russians or Chinese).
The same is About Azerbaijani Turks. Azerbaijani carpets, miniatures and other elements of Azerbaijani culture are propaganded as Persian. There are many reasons. The main reasons are the stereotype that "Turks cannot create" and the "nostalgia" that most Western authors have approaching to the history of the region. They try to see everything as it were thousands years ago. Once upon a time there were a Persian empire, although it does not mean that all nations living in Persian empire were the Persians. They started to call everything connected with the region using the adjective Persian -. For an American it is easier to call a carpet woven by Azerbaijani (Turkic) men of Tabriz, Ardebil etc."Persian - " or a miniature by an Azerbaijani artist "Persian - " to simplify his understanding and sometimes also to strengthen the stereotype "Turks cannot create". They sometimes overstep the line of madness and call Pazyrykh carpet Persian when neither Altay nor the Skits have any connections to the Persians.
Calling Azerbaijani (Turkic, Tatar) khans Persian is the same issue, the same stereotype, the same deceiving nostalgia, but not a fact, or history.
Teymur Shushali ( talk) 11:00, 7 September, 2009 (UTC)
Please explain how the Armenian spelling is relevant to this Turkic khanate? Armenian was not the language the khans and their administration spoke. Meliks were in charge of the Armenian population only, which made about 20% of the entire population. They were not the khans. If one creates a separate article about meliks, the Armenian spelling would be relevant there. But here it is not. Grand master 05:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Explained in my edit summary. It is not turkic but persian khanate with high degree of armenian self rule. for example, in safavids article we include georgian and azerbaijani version of dynasty name too but they made up what portion of population. please se meliks article to learn more, btu this is different topic. im not sure what is criteria in your mind for inclusion of name in articles, but I see more fantastic examples and no one seems to complain, would you like me to give examples? Kazanciyan ( talk) 21:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, so Armenian was used as administrative language as did Azerbaijani. Also, georgian spoken by a ruling elite, like meliks. I think it is clear. Kazanciyan ( talk) 01:14, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
But nevertheless minority of official administrative rulers, not to mention that Azerbaijanis and Georgians were likewise a minority in the safavid empire. Kazanciyan ( talk) 14:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Please read comments and try to come to constructive conclusion. Do not incite users and run in circles. Khanate was an administrative region that had a dual govermnment - a khan and melik, both had equal powers over their respective communities. Do not try to find excuses to remove Armenain name with your anti-Armenian hysteria. I have answered all your concerns, but continue to get meatpuppeted by your friends. Kazanciyan ( talk) 18:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Armenians were not the majority, they were only 20% of population, and therefore Armenian name is not appropriate in the lead of the article. Chippolona ( talk) 10:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Why, yes, yes they were. Therefore, through your logic it is not only appropriate but of the utmost importance to this article. Fazeri ( talk) 19:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't mind compromise, I just don't think that Iranica says anything about autonomy for Armenians, it just says that Armenians were subordinate to an Armenian melik, who in turn was subordinate to the khan. I think we should use the exact same wording as the source. -- Grand master 11:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Grandmaster removed the following from the lead section: that the khanate "had a high level of self-government together with internal autonomy for its Armenian inhabitants". The removal of the claim that the khanate had a high level of self government was done without explanation, and is contrary to one posting on this talk page which did seem to indicate there was a degree of independence from Persia. Also, that content has been there for a long time, and in thattime nobody has disputed the claim that it had a degree of independence. The "Armenians were just subordinate to a melik, who was in turn subordinate to the khan" explanation given for the removal of the "together with internal autonomy for its Armenian inhabitants" is flawed. We are not talking about an age were individual members of a population had votes and parliamentery representation - I think wording like "internal autonomy" seems an appropriate description for the state of affairs, just as self-government is (in the context of the time) an appropriate description of the relationship between the khanate (whose khan was subordinate to the Shah) and Persia. This "internal autonomy" content has also beeen there for a long time, and has not been disputed before. Meowy 15:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Although the khan of Erevan, also known as the sirdar (Pers. sardār, “chief”), governed the entire khanate, from the mid-17th century until the Russian occupation in 1828 the Armenian community was under the immediate jurisdiction of the melikʿ (Ar.-Pers. malek, “ruler”) of Erevan, of the house of Melikʿ-Ałamalean.
The melikʿ of Erevan had full administrative, legislative and judicial authority over his people up to the sentence of the death penalty, which the sirdar alone was allowed to impose (Hewsen, 1973-74, pp. 297-98).
Meowy is correct, they also constituted a majoriyu for mosty of the life of the khanate. main issue is why to include azerbaijani without any connection to azerbaijanis in the text content. most of the khanates populations were nomadic tribes with names listable, not an ethnic group called "azerbaijanis." CaptainGio ( talk) 20:10, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Also, the armenian here is pre-reform spelling, so it would have been the contemporary spelling used my armenians and armenian administration of the khanate. CaptainGio ( talk) 20:16, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
The first item to address is the issue on demographics: first, such specific statistics should not be added to the lead, especially when they lack complete context; that section is merely to summarize basic information about the khanate, not to hammer away a point which obviously requires clarification to the unsuspecting reader. Second, the Muslim majority of 80% only represents the last decade, which obviously represents a fraction of the khanate's history which spanned from 1604–1828. Those figures are based on the figures the Russians carried out when they took control of the region and relate to the numbers just prior to their conquest. There are two events other than Shah Abbas' (1604) depopulation of Armenian, which caused the widespread emigration of Armenians.
The first one took place under Nadir Shah (starting in 1736), from An Historical Atlas of Islam by William Charles Brice, (Brill Academic Publishers, 1981 p. 276), we read:
In the [Muslim year] 12th/18th century under Nadir Shah, the Armenians suffered excessive taxation and other penalties, and many Armenians emigrated, particularly to India.
The second massive emigration started more than two decades prior to the Russian conquest. In The Cambridge History of Iran (eds. William Bayne Fisher, Peter Avery, Ilya Gershevitch, Gavin Hambly, Charles Melville, published by the Cambridge University Press, 1991 p. 339), it writes:
Griboedov not only extended protection to those Caucasian captives who sought to go home but actively promoted the return of even those who did not volunteer. Large numbers of Georgian and Armenian captives had lived in Iran since 1804 or as far back as 1795...
.
To this, we should add the 20,000 Armenians who left for Georgia. The statistic of 20% comes from Bournoutian who writes:
...prior to Russian conquest the Armenians accounted for some 20 percent of the total population of Eastern Armenian, and the Muslims 80 percent;
But Bournoutian recognizes that the Khanate only lost its Armenian character under Nadir Shah.
The quotation of 80% was unfortunately recycled and placed out of context by Azerbaijani scholars, and some scholars like Tadeusz Swietochowski, without any context and without mention of the mass migrations starting less than a century prior to the Russian conquest. Prior to those, in the Khanate, the Armenians had pluriality over the Persians and Turkic population, which at that time was significantly considerably Sunni and could not be distinguished from the Ottoman Turks.
Obviously the claims that Muslims formed 80% of the Khanate are misleading, because this represents the situation just prior to the Russian conquest and that the Armenians from 1604 to 1828 suffered three phases of massive emigration, up until the last years which they ended up representing a minority. But during most of the Khanate period Armenians constituted a pluriality. So that information in the introduction by the fact that it represents a fraction of the history of the Khanate is obviously misleading.
Justin McCarthy, who is known for his pro-Turk sympathies and the denial of the Armenian Genocide, writes on what you keep sustaining that:
...statistical analysis proves it to have been impossible.
As for the constant inclusion of the Azerbaijani spelling - we have been through this perhaps a thousand times. Provide any material which proves that during the period it was written this way. The justification of its use is based on the claim that they constituted majority and that it was the language. Both are wrong - even in Turkic manuscripts, the Persian word was used, the Azeri term written in Perso-Arabic script is derived from the modern Azeri orthography and pronounciation which has absolutely no historic basis to support it. It's just a way to contrevene the none existance of the modern Azeri alphabet. This is unacceptable and an outright violation of WP:SYNTHESIS and original research. On the other hand Armenian manuscripts abound naming the place in Armenian yet we reached a compromise to not even use it on this article.
One more thing - do not undo reverts by suspected or confirmed socks if their reverts are otherwise legitimate. You have no basis to do such a thing and this I and others have repeated for you to not do this.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 22:13, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
The Azeri spelling is not an adaptation of modern orthography. The present-day use of it by Iranian Azeri websites proves this. Whatever orthography reforms took place with regards to Azeri in the twentieth century only concerned the Roman and Cyrillic-written literary standard of Azerbaijan, which Iranian Azeris do not abide by, having continued to write in the fossilised Perso-Arabic script. It certainly existed and was widely used at the time of the khanate (Azeri literary tradition has been around since the fourteenth century) and has seen no spelling reforms because it was never regulated by an official body. As for the pronunciation, it is irrelevant to spelling, and it is a scientific fact that every generation pronounces words slightly differently than the previous one. I am sure that 200 years ago, Armenian phonemes were not realised in their modern way either. This cannot serve as an argument. Just as the claim that Azeris, or Turkic-speaking Muslims, did not constitute majority in the khanate, which they certainly did. Parishan ( talk) 07:57, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Why is it that we include the Azerbaijani spelling for the Khanate of Erevan, what exactly the point of this? The khanate as a whole was never part of Azerbaijan, it was only a district created by the Safavids, and the khans themselves were Qajar. The only language I see plausible for inclusion is Armenian, because the Khanate of Erevan as a whole was located in historic Armenia (as accepted by cartographers of the day), and most of its territories were included both in the First Republic of Armenia, and also in the present-day Republic. This is simply an expression of Azerbaijani irredentism over Armenia. -- Davo88 ( talk) 16:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Parishan, you are abusing your privileges of editing by continuing to edit war. Numerous editors have voiced their objections to these edits and yet you still insist on railroading them in instead of respecting the fact that no one but yourself supports their inclusion. You have been overruled three times over the past two years and waiting six months to return and re-insert them are tantamount to disruption and gaming with the system and I will report you if you persist in shoehorning in your views which are not even supported by sources. Like Davo has stated above, whatever they referred the khanate to, it was not something which someone in the 20th century comes and artificially calls Azerbaijani. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:38, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
I disagree with both Alborz Fallah and MarshallBagramyan. I will not bother commenting on the ignorant statement about 'artificial origins' of a language that has been a linguistic unit since at least the 16th century. What the language was called at the time is not an issue here. The German language was not a uniform entity (let alone having a written standard) until the times of Bismark and did not even have a universal name, yet we see modern German headings in articles such as Henry the Lion, Holy Roman Empire, German Peasants' War, etc. The point is that this was the name the majority of the population referred to their lands as, and so did their descendants until their total expulsion in 1991. What a language came to be called later is irrelevant. There are dozens of examples of languages whose names have been changed by the academia. This makes them neither 'artificial', nor 'historially non-valuable.' Parishan ( talk) 17:23, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian ( talk) 21:08, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Erivan khanate → Erivan Khanate – Same format as for the others in Category:Khanates. Aleksandr Krymsky ( talk) 21:55, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
This material, [10]- [11] that has been added on two occassions right now, is hoax. The source (in Russian) doesn't back up the added content in any way. - LouisAragon ( talk) 23:39, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
The Erivan Khanate was disputed between several states. According to Stepan Burnashov, russian representative in Georgia, Ottoman Empire in its friman, that was sent to Azerbaijan, "didn't recognized Erivan, as Azerbaijani city, as belonging to Georgian king"
Обстоятельные онаго донесения доставлены мне письменно после отправления рапорта, в коих, между протчим, означаетца, что Порта присланным в Адребежень ферманом объявляет себя защитницою Персии, что Еривань, яко город Адребеженски, не признает принадлежащым грузинскому царю
Ok, where do you see discrepancy? (Apologize for mistakes, my İELTS lvl is 6.5-7.0) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.117.135.17 ( talk) 19:43, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that this is the flag of the Yerevan Khanate? A reverse image search only brings up a handful of Azerbaijani articles. Ninetoyadome ( talk) 02:28, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
@ Ninetoyadome:, @ 92slim:, yes, I had found that PDF file myself as well. I initially thought you meant that there was some kind of online gallery where you could see it. I'm virtually entirely sure that its completely violating WP:RS however. I won't go into detail regarding the rather internationally reputable and "renowned" efforts of the government of the Azerbaijan Republic to falsify history, but this PDF seems to be another live attestment to that. What do you gentlemen think? I mean, seriously?.....;
....and so forth. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
The sources cited at its "bibliography" section, p. 25, are tourist websites, Wikipedia, and a few other state-owned websites. I believe we can safely conclude that this is an absolutely non- WP:RS source. - LouisAragon ( talk) 00:16, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
A user is pushing the view that just because the Erivan Khanate was part of the Persian Empire that the alternative names must have Persian first. Thankfully, WP:NCGN solves disputes like this by simply suggesting that we place these alternative names in alphabetical order. Under #2 of NCGN, we read:
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken).
Armenian and Azerbaijani, just like Persian, are relevant foreign languages. The Erivan Khanate is important for Armenians and Azerbaijanis as it is for Persians. To prioritize one language's importance over the other is not in the best interest of keeping neutrality within the first sentence of the lead. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 04:36, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Since Persian was the official language, then it has to come first. -- 92slim ( talk) 10:02, 22 November 2016 (UTC)Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken).
@ LouisAragon: if you are quoting Bourtnoutian 1982 to insist that khanates were provinces, then please quote him all the way, including the passage where he says that these provinces were under nominal Persian control: "By the nineteenth century there were nine khanates in Transcaucasia under nominal Persian control", otherwise this is WP:Cherry-picking.
While Chopin does not say "Azerbaijanis", he says "Tatars" which was the term for Azerbaijanis at the time. Since the term is not mentioned overtly, I added it only as a link, not in the actual text as a form of compromise. You calling this "blatant (sic!) misrepresentation" (as if I linked the article Mayans or the Maori) was a bad faith remark. You have edited dozens on articles on the Caucasus and you are a member of WikiProject Caucasia; it cannot be news to you that "Tatar" in the context of the South Caucasus refers to Azeris (even ru:wiki with its continuous Armenian-Azeri clashes on controversial topics has long accepted this). Are you sure "blatant" is the word you are looking for? Do you in all honesty think that the article Turkic peoples that mentions Yakuts and the Kyrghyz is an appropriate link when talking about Turkic population of Erivan? In any case, linking it to Turkic peoples is just as "blatant" because not all Turkic peoples were called Tatar at the time. Parishan ( talk) 21:03, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
@ LouisAragon:, you seem to be active in the article, but I am still waiting for your reply. Parishan ( talk) 14:44, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Not sure where you're getting the "1982" from. Bournoutian has asserted in many of his works, a significant amount of whom are cited in the article, that these "khanates" were "provinces", whether under "nominal Persian control" or not.
"During the eighteenth century, Persian Armenia was composed of the provincial boundaries or Khanates (subdivided into Mahals) of Erevan and Nakhchivan (...)" -- Bournoutian, George A. (1980). "The Population of Persian Armenia Prior to and Immediately Following its Annexation to the Russian Empire: 1826-1832". The Wilson Center, Kennan Institute for Advanced Russian Studies: 1–2.
"A capable administrator, Ḥosaynqolī Khan managed, during his twenty-year tenure, to restore Armenian confidence in the Persian administration and made the khanate a model province." -- Kettenhofen, Erich; Bournoutian, George A.; Hewsen, Robert H. (1998). "EREVAN". Encyclopaedia Iranica, Vol. VIII, Fasc. 5. pp. 542–551
"Bournoutian, George A. (2016). The 1819 Russian Survey of the Khanate of Sheki: A Primary Source on the Demography and Economy of an Iranian Province Prior to its Annexation by Russia. Costa Mesa, California: Mazda Publishers. ISBN 978-1568593159."
So you are not here to build the article per the reliable sources, you are here to right great wrongs. Thank you. Your own words. Chopin makes no word of "Azerbaijanis", yet you made "Tatars" link to "Azerbaijanis". [14] These Tatars of the area were dubbed in later times as "Azerbaijanis", thats correct, but its still not what Chopin states, the author whom you cited. Whats also pretty endearing is that you additionally added a specialist in law / a prof in international law, a non-RS source, in order to back up the same thing. [15]
Oh, and btw, next time you want to "wait for a reply" on your self-formulated "essays", you should consider replying first to users who are waiting for about 6 months for you to give a source for your "claims"; [16]. Another beautiful, similar, and recent case where you have disregarded the reliable sources, and simply did what you wanted to do. - LouisAragon ( talk) 15:22, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
In the 1930s a number of Soviet historians, including the prominent Russian Orientalist, Ilya Petrushevskii, were instructed by the Kremlin to accept the totally unsubstantiated notion that the territory of the former Iranian khanates (except Yerevan, which had become Soviet Armenia) was part of an Azerbaijani nation. Petrushevskii's two important studies dealing with the South Caucasus, therefore, use the term Azerbaijan and Azerbaijani in his works on the history of the region from the sixteenth to the nineteenth centuries. Other Russian academics went even further and claimed that an Azeri nation had existed from ancient times and had continued to the present. Since all the Russian surveys and almost all nineteenth-century Russian primary sources referred to the Muslims who resided in the South Caucasus as "Tatars" and not "Azerbaijanis", Soviet historians simply substituted Azerbaijani for Tatars. Azeri historians and writers, starting in 1937, followed suit and began to view the three-thousand-year history of the region as that of Azerbaijan. The pre-Iranian, Iranian, and Arab eras were expunged. Anyone who lived in the territory of Soviet Azerbaijan was classified as Azeri; hence the great Iranian poet Nezami, who had written only in Persian, became the national poet of Azerbaijan.
Revert Seymur06 ( talk) 08:58, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Why is this antique map of the Erivan Khanate brings such a problem and an unfriendly reaction from the user LouisAragon, who is so much against this.map. Culminatio ( talk) 09:32, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
"Erevan Shah" is the oriental title of the Persian style ruler of "Greater Armenia".
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The Erivan Khanate did not include the Kagizman district. Ricardolindo2 ( talk) 04:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
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Why Iravan and not Erivan? What is the official transliteration from Persian?-- Eupator 15:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Uggh! I don't visit too often and there is already a discussion! As far as I know the Irevan, Erivan, Yerevan Iravan was written as آرون which allows any connotation. Turkish rulers of the khanate were pronouncing it as Iravan... Before Qajars reassembled Persia, khanate was pretty much independent and ottoman leaning ... Now I don't care really its the same name Abdulnr 01:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is some contemporary spelling on the coin from 1730
http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=12186&si=Yerevan&what=allfields
or: http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=23860&si=Yerevan&what=allfields Abdulnr 01:24, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting that the second coin (ottoman) is spelled without Alef (althought it is hard to read)which makes it Revan. Abdulnr 12:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
This is what you have when someone does not want to acknowledge a simple fact that the khanate was ruled by ethnic Azeri Turks. Grandmaster 05:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Look, we are not even saying that population was Turkish or Persian or Armenian (this is a different debate) , we are saying that rulers were turkic and not Persian (Farsi) In most of Persia the dynasties were of turkish (ic) beys with such names as Ustajlu, Bayat, Rumlu, Kengerli. I doubt there were a lot of Persians (I mean ethnically) bar civil admninistrators in Armenia in 18 century. Abdulnr 08:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Strange aversion to Turks here. They identified themselves first and foremost as Shia Muslims and then Turks, very unlikely Persian. For example Alevi turks (Shias on Anadolu, as Turkish as you can get) supported Persia and were persecuted. As for khanates, they in many case supplanted beglerbeys and were even more Turkic than governors before. But it depends on the khanate. Between 1747- 95 however, Persia did not exist, and some of the khanates were even under Ottomans. Abdulnr 16:43, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Well I proposed as you see - Azeri Kizilbash (which means Shia) Turks as opposed to Ottomans so it becomes clear for you. The Problem with saying Persian or Azerbaijani is that this places it out of historic context. nesimi 21:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Bakikhanov is quite objective - he is writing from 18century prospective not from modern point of view and wrote extensively in Persian.
What do you mean - sounds pretty harsh, Grandmaster supplied a good source abdulnr 18:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
During the existence of the Erivan khanate, its population consisted primarily of Persians (settled largely around the capital), Azerbaijanis (both settled and seminomadic), and Kurds (largely nomadic).[1] it is very "interesting" information. because the closest region to Erevan with Persian population it was and is now - Tehran and Gazvin - several hundreds km's distance. so from where Erevan khanate had Persian population? may be they were transported with helicopters? it's an absurde. Somebody didn't want say: ok, guys, sorry but Erivan Khanate was Azeri feudal stat as many other like Nakhichevan, Maku, Gandja etc... It is just politic, but not science...sorry.
Can anyone cite documents related to deportation of Armenians in 1605? A massive scale, small scale. PLease provide a source to satisfy my curiosity. Regards abdulnr 14:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. abdulnr 23:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Here are some good quotes from a military historian John Baddeley, which clarifies and reinforces the usage/translation of the word "khanate" as a "state" and not mere principality, as well as on the fact that at times (indeed, until 1804), Erivan khanate was independent from Iran. There are several more detailed quotes on how Eirvan was conquered, how brave and energetic the Khan of Erivan was, how he was sometimes victorious in his battles against Russia, etc.
"In 1804 Tsitsianoff, with about 10,000 men and 20 guns, marched on Erivan, another nominally independent khanate at that time actually threatened by a Persian army, but, for once, failed." (John F. Baddeley, "The Russian Conquest of the Caucasus", London: Longmans, Green and Co., 1908, p. 68)
"Potto sums up Tsitsianoff's achievements and character as follows: "In the short time he passed there (in Transcaucasia) he managed to completely alter the map of the country. He found it composed of minutely divided, independent Muhammadan States leaning upon Persia, namely, the khanates of Baku, Shirvan, Shekeen, Karabagh, Gandja, and Erivan, to which must also be added the territory of the Djaro-Bielokani Lesghians, the pashalik of Akhaltsikh, and the Turkish fortresses situated on the shores of the Black Sea." (ibid., pp. 71-72)
"Russia by this instrument [Gulistan Treaty of 1813 - ed.] was confirmed in possession of all the khanates -- Karabagh, Gandja, Shekeen, Shirvan, Derbend, Kouba, and Baku, together with parts of Talish and the fortress of Lenkoran. Persia further abandoned all pretensions to Daghestan, Georgia, Mingrelia, Imeretia, and Abkhasia." (ibid., p. 90) -- AdilBaguirov 07:17, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Adil you really need to stop and think for a little. Don't you think adding that kind of information to the article without discusson, without references would be reverted back???? Next time don't tell me that I don't use the discussion page when your doing it the same thing. ROOB323 09:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
User:Artaxiad has been frequently found to purging damaging references, including the above one by ROOB323, today. I have restored it, for at least as long as ArbCom is going. After that, only myself, ROOB323 or admins have the moral authority to remove this disparaging attack. If you are so disturbed by this personal attack, you should express that to ROOB, and not try to quietly remove it. -- AdilBaguirov 06:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I added a quote, seems informative. Artaxiad 09:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
There are many references to "Erivan" khanate, including the one from Armenian scholar Bournoutian, not a single one calling it "Yerevan khanate" though. Please, provide justification for the edit removing the historical spellings and discuss them on the page. Thanks. Atabek ( talk) 05:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I corrected the article to reflect the fact that Azerbaijanis did not exist before the 20th c. I don't think the alternate spellings are notable, or even verifiable.-- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 05:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I see what I did became reverted. Yes, there is several ways to spell modern name for Yerevan. Problem is that Yerevan is in Armenian. The persian spelling is originally from Ilkhanid times and we see diverse spelling like Airavan, Irevan, Erevan and much more. The spelling used by EI is one I adopted. I thought it would be easy just to say Yerevan, but seems people are upset. I know Encyclopedia of Islam (English and Turkish version) will have articles about this and also the book by the American scholar Bournotian as someone above mentioned. His work is considered the most important work and most authorative on the topic and is a big book opposed to several page article in iranian encyclopedia. Also, anyone who studies this state will affeliate it with nothing but Persian empire of Safavids and Qajars and anyone between,. I studied bournoutian book beofre and he spends a lot to explain about ethnic groups of persians, kurds, armenians, and Turkic tribes (dozens!) with specific names and islaimc denominations, I think Qizil Bash, Qara Qoyunli (tribe name, not to be confused with famous states and organization associated with names), these Turkic people were not referred to as Azeris, but muslim tribesmen. I will get book soon and cite explanation for this. I understand and I share your sincere love to own people, its history and culture, but this has no any relation to modern republic of azerbaijan. 24.24.200.113 ( talk) 05:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC) also, if I am wrong, I ask for contributors to cite sources when they think to change me and revert me. 24.24.200.113 ( talk) 05:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually they were not even called Tartars back then. They were Turkic speaking Muslims.-- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 12:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Since the article is not about today, it needs to reflect contemporary terms. No need to use fictional names.-- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 07:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Replacing Azeris with Tatars is not a revert--in fact I had not done it in this article. At any rate, I removed both terms, so the point is moot.
The whole new segment added by the anon user describes the liberation of Armenia from the Turkic element after the Erivan khanate had been abolished. This process of cleansing was finally completed in 1989-90 (1992 in NK, with the capture of Shushi). It has nothing to do with the period of the Erivan khanate. -- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 10:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Your comment is of political nature. New segment is relevant to Erivan khanate and his subsequent history.-- Dacy69 ( talk) 19:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
An anon has been edit warring over the inclusion of Turkish spelling Revan Hanlığı on this article (and edit warring elsewhere), so I have semi-protected this article. I have reverted because there is a lot of talk discussion here that mentions Turkish history, and I dont think it hurts to include too many spellings. It might be useless information (most Wikipedia articles have snippets of useless information), but I fail to see why someone is getting so upset about it, which makes me suspicious it is nationalist editing. Any thoughts about the Turkish spelling? John Vandenberg ( chat) 12:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
In 2008, president
Ilham Aliyev, talking about Nagorno Karabakh, said: In 1918, Erivan was granted to the Armenians. It was a great mistake. The Erivan khanate was an Azeri territory, the Armenians were guests there
[6].
What's the opinion of the editors about adding this sentence to the article?--
Alborz Fallah (
talk) 21:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Why is the term Yerevan Province being used here..?!? The article which its redirected to is called Erivan Governorate, thus it should be named like that. I corrected this. Baku87 ( talk) 10:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Turkish was not written in Latin letters at the time. Any Turkish speakers in the region would be speaking the Azeri dialect (in addition to Persian and perhaps Kurdish), so khanate would be Romanized as khanlighi and not hanlığı, which is the reformed Turkish spelling that was introduced during the Kemalist reforms. If someone can find the actual Turkish name for the khanate in the original Arabic script, then please insert it. Thanks. Hakob ( talk) 01:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not think there is a need to add the town's name in Perso-Arabic script, when the Persian[Gajar] writing of the town is already there. It would only be duplication, since both spelling (Azeri and Farsi) of the town/province in this script would be the same. Only Azeri modern spelling should do it. -- Aynabend ( talk) 19:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC) It is a stupidity not to add name of khanete in Azerbaijani , give up your armenian stereo types and let us change some parts of article . Babak Khorramid —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaur heydarov ( talk • contribs) 07:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Please, no azeri hate welcome here. 194.186.188.249 ( talk) 16:50, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I added a lot of information and improved the format of the article. I would like some of the other users who previouslt editted to add more, maybe pictures. I think most important is to find more sources since Iranica is very limited and talks only about story from heavily Armenian context. More needs to be said of transformation of the territory from early administrative region to later khanate and it's history in context of caucasus history. I also fixed spelling.
I think there is no need to add the foreign Azerbaijani or Turkish spelling to this article. I do not understand why it needs to be added like spanish or chinese. Maybe armenian name can be added because it was like next to persian and self rule? I dont know, I think this article can be bigger. Regards. Shahin Giray ( talk) 03:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
1736-40 Tahmasp-qulu khan
1740-47 Nader Shah
1745-48 Mekhti-khan Qasımlı
1748-50 Hasan Ali-khan
1750-80 Huseyn Ali Khan
1752-55 Khalil Khan
1755-62 Hasan Ali Khan Qajar
1762-83 Huseyn Ali Khan
1783-84 Qulam Ali (son of Hasan Ali)
1784-1804 Muhammed Khan
1804-06 Mekhti-Qulu Khan
1806-07 Muhammed Khan Maragai
1807-27 Huseyn Qulu Khan Qajar
The word ...qulu in Azerbaijani (Turkic) means slave of.... The root of word is qul which means a slave in Azerbaijani (Turkic) which is followed by the suffix -u that has four forms -ı, - i, -u, -ü. This suffix expresses the idea of belonging to, being of the preceding subject.
Azerbaijani (Turkic) language as many other Turkic languages has the law called vowel harmony. According to this law relevant hard and soft vowels follow each other in harmony. This is why the noun qul is followed by the -u form of the suffix: qulu. Persian sources (nationalists) try to hide this truth spelling this word like qoli.
So, Huseyn Qulu means a slave of Huseyn. Huseyn is the name of the grandson of Islamic Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). Mainly Shias are proud to feel like the slaves of Huseyn, or his brother Hasan, or their father Ali, or imam Mekhti who is believed to return to the World once again, or other 11 imams.
Thus, the names Huseyn Qulu, Hasan Qulu, Mekhti Qulu, Abbas Qulu... are very common among Azerbaijani turks.
With Ali (the name of the fourth caliph, who had to be the first according to Shia thought) Azerbaijani people mostly use Qulam: Qulam Ali. -am is again an Azerbaijani (Turkic) suffix which has two forms: -am, -əm (or -yam, -yəm, after a vowel sound). This Suffix is again controlled by the law of vowel harmony: Qulam, where u and a follow each other, both of which are hard vowels in Azerbaijani language.
The suffix -am(-əm) means I am: Qulam = I am a slave. Thus Qulam Ali means: I am your slave, Ali in Azerbaijani (Turkic), not in Persian or any other language, but in Azerbaijani.
-lı, - li, -lu, lü, another vowel harmony-controlled Azerbaijani - turkic suffix which means from: Qasımlı = From Qasım.
Common-sense. Just think that one claims that Scottish are English, Tatars are Russians, Uyghurs are Chinese. These all sound illogical. All the cultural and art values that the Scottish, the Tatars and the Uyghurs have belong accordingly to the Scottish, the Tatars and the Uyghurs (not to the English, Russians or Chinese).
The same is About Azerbaijani Turks. Azerbaijani carpets, miniatures and other elements of Azerbaijani culture are propaganded as Persian. There are many reasons. The main reasons are the stereotype that "Turks cannot create" and the "nostalgia" that most Western authors have approaching to the history of the region. They try to see everything as it were thousands years ago. Once upon a time there were a Persian empire, although it does not mean that all nations living in Persian empire were the Persians. They started to call everything connected with the region using the adjective Persian -. For an American it is easier to call a carpet woven by Azerbaijani (Turkic) men of Tabriz, Ardebil etc."Persian - " or a miniature by an Azerbaijani artist "Persian - " to simplify his understanding and sometimes also to strengthen the stereotype "Turks cannot create". They sometimes overstep the line of madness and call Pazyrykh carpet Persian when neither Altay nor the Skits have any connections to the Persians.
Calling Azerbaijani (Turkic, Tatar) khans Persian is the same issue, the same stereotype, the same deceiving nostalgia, but not a fact, or history.
Teymur Shushali ( talk) 11:00, 7 September, 2009 (UTC)
Please explain how the Armenian spelling is relevant to this Turkic khanate? Armenian was not the language the khans and their administration spoke. Meliks were in charge of the Armenian population only, which made about 20% of the entire population. They were not the khans. If one creates a separate article about meliks, the Armenian spelling would be relevant there. But here it is not. Grand master 05:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Explained in my edit summary. It is not turkic but persian khanate with high degree of armenian self rule. for example, in safavids article we include georgian and azerbaijani version of dynasty name too but they made up what portion of population. please se meliks article to learn more, btu this is different topic. im not sure what is criteria in your mind for inclusion of name in articles, but I see more fantastic examples and no one seems to complain, would you like me to give examples? Kazanciyan ( talk) 21:33, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, so Armenian was used as administrative language as did Azerbaijani. Also, georgian spoken by a ruling elite, like meliks. I think it is clear. Kazanciyan ( talk) 01:14, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
But nevertheless minority of official administrative rulers, not to mention that Azerbaijanis and Georgians were likewise a minority in the safavid empire. Kazanciyan ( talk) 14:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Please read comments and try to come to constructive conclusion. Do not incite users and run in circles. Khanate was an administrative region that had a dual govermnment - a khan and melik, both had equal powers over their respective communities. Do not try to find excuses to remove Armenain name with your anti-Armenian hysteria. I have answered all your concerns, but continue to get meatpuppeted by your friends. Kazanciyan ( talk) 18:09, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Armenians were not the majority, they were only 20% of population, and therefore Armenian name is not appropriate in the lead of the article. Chippolona ( talk) 10:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Why, yes, yes they were. Therefore, through your logic it is not only appropriate but of the utmost importance to this article. Fazeri ( talk) 19:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't mind compromise, I just don't think that Iranica says anything about autonomy for Armenians, it just says that Armenians were subordinate to an Armenian melik, who in turn was subordinate to the khan. I think we should use the exact same wording as the source. -- Grand master 11:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Grandmaster removed the following from the lead section: that the khanate "had a high level of self-government together with internal autonomy for its Armenian inhabitants". The removal of the claim that the khanate had a high level of self government was done without explanation, and is contrary to one posting on this talk page which did seem to indicate there was a degree of independence from Persia. Also, that content has been there for a long time, and in thattime nobody has disputed the claim that it had a degree of independence. The "Armenians were just subordinate to a melik, who was in turn subordinate to the khan" explanation given for the removal of the "together with internal autonomy for its Armenian inhabitants" is flawed. We are not talking about an age were individual members of a population had votes and parliamentery representation - I think wording like "internal autonomy" seems an appropriate description for the state of affairs, just as self-government is (in the context of the time) an appropriate description of the relationship between the khanate (whose khan was subordinate to the Shah) and Persia. This "internal autonomy" content has also beeen there for a long time, and has not been disputed before. Meowy 15:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Although the khan of Erevan, also known as the sirdar (Pers. sardār, “chief”), governed the entire khanate, from the mid-17th century until the Russian occupation in 1828 the Armenian community was under the immediate jurisdiction of the melikʿ (Ar.-Pers. malek, “ruler”) of Erevan, of the house of Melikʿ-Ałamalean.
The melikʿ of Erevan had full administrative, legislative and judicial authority over his people up to the sentence of the death penalty, which the sirdar alone was allowed to impose (Hewsen, 1973-74, pp. 297-98).
Meowy is correct, they also constituted a majoriyu for mosty of the life of the khanate. main issue is why to include azerbaijani without any connection to azerbaijanis in the text content. most of the khanates populations were nomadic tribes with names listable, not an ethnic group called "azerbaijanis." CaptainGio ( talk) 20:10, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Also, the armenian here is pre-reform spelling, so it would have been the contemporary spelling used my armenians and armenian administration of the khanate. CaptainGio ( talk) 20:16, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
The first item to address is the issue on demographics: first, such specific statistics should not be added to the lead, especially when they lack complete context; that section is merely to summarize basic information about the khanate, not to hammer away a point which obviously requires clarification to the unsuspecting reader. Second, the Muslim majority of 80% only represents the last decade, which obviously represents a fraction of the khanate's history which spanned from 1604–1828. Those figures are based on the figures the Russians carried out when they took control of the region and relate to the numbers just prior to their conquest. There are two events other than Shah Abbas' (1604) depopulation of Armenian, which caused the widespread emigration of Armenians.
The first one took place under Nadir Shah (starting in 1736), from An Historical Atlas of Islam by William Charles Brice, (Brill Academic Publishers, 1981 p. 276), we read:
In the [Muslim year] 12th/18th century under Nadir Shah, the Armenians suffered excessive taxation and other penalties, and many Armenians emigrated, particularly to India.
The second massive emigration started more than two decades prior to the Russian conquest. In The Cambridge History of Iran (eds. William Bayne Fisher, Peter Avery, Ilya Gershevitch, Gavin Hambly, Charles Melville, published by the Cambridge University Press, 1991 p. 339), it writes:
Griboedov not only extended protection to those Caucasian captives who sought to go home but actively promoted the return of even those who did not volunteer. Large numbers of Georgian and Armenian captives had lived in Iran since 1804 or as far back as 1795...
.
To this, we should add the 20,000 Armenians who left for Georgia. The statistic of 20% comes from Bournoutian who writes:
...prior to Russian conquest the Armenians accounted for some 20 percent of the total population of Eastern Armenian, and the Muslims 80 percent;
But Bournoutian recognizes that the Khanate only lost its Armenian character under Nadir Shah.
The quotation of 80% was unfortunately recycled and placed out of context by Azerbaijani scholars, and some scholars like Tadeusz Swietochowski, without any context and without mention of the mass migrations starting less than a century prior to the Russian conquest. Prior to those, in the Khanate, the Armenians had pluriality over the Persians and Turkic population, which at that time was significantly considerably Sunni and could not be distinguished from the Ottoman Turks.
Obviously the claims that Muslims formed 80% of the Khanate are misleading, because this represents the situation just prior to the Russian conquest and that the Armenians from 1604 to 1828 suffered three phases of massive emigration, up until the last years which they ended up representing a minority. But during most of the Khanate period Armenians constituted a pluriality. So that information in the introduction by the fact that it represents a fraction of the history of the Khanate is obviously misleading.
Justin McCarthy, who is known for his pro-Turk sympathies and the denial of the Armenian Genocide, writes on what you keep sustaining that:
...statistical analysis proves it to have been impossible.
As for the constant inclusion of the Azerbaijani spelling - we have been through this perhaps a thousand times. Provide any material which proves that during the period it was written this way. The justification of its use is based on the claim that they constituted majority and that it was the language. Both are wrong - even in Turkic manuscripts, the Persian word was used, the Azeri term written in Perso-Arabic script is derived from the modern Azeri orthography and pronounciation which has absolutely no historic basis to support it. It's just a way to contrevene the none existance of the modern Azeri alphabet. This is unacceptable and an outright violation of WP:SYNTHESIS and original research. On the other hand Armenian manuscripts abound naming the place in Armenian yet we reached a compromise to not even use it on this article.
One more thing - do not undo reverts by suspected or confirmed socks if their reverts are otherwise legitimate. You have no basis to do such a thing and this I and others have repeated for you to not do this.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 22:13, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
The Azeri spelling is not an adaptation of modern orthography. The present-day use of it by Iranian Azeri websites proves this. Whatever orthography reforms took place with regards to Azeri in the twentieth century only concerned the Roman and Cyrillic-written literary standard of Azerbaijan, which Iranian Azeris do not abide by, having continued to write in the fossilised Perso-Arabic script. It certainly existed and was widely used at the time of the khanate (Azeri literary tradition has been around since the fourteenth century) and has seen no spelling reforms because it was never regulated by an official body. As for the pronunciation, it is irrelevant to spelling, and it is a scientific fact that every generation pronounces words slightly differently than the previous one. I am sure that 200 years ago, Armenian phonemes were not realised in their modern way either. This cannot serve as an argument. Just as the claim that Azeris, or Turkic-speaking Muslims, did not constitute majority in the khanate, which they certainly did. Parishan ( talk) 07:57, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Why is it that we include the Azerbaijani spelling for the Khanate of Erevan, what exactly the point of this? The khanate as a whole was never part of Azerbaijan, it was only a district created by the Safavids, and the khans themselves were Qajar. The only language I see plausible for inclusion is Armenian, because the Khanate of Erevan as a whole was located in historic Armenia (as accepted by cartographers of the day), and most of its territories were included both in the First Republic of Armenia, and also in the present-day Republic. This is simply an expression of Azerbaijani irredentism over Armenia. -- Davo88 ( talk) 16:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Parishan, you are abusing your privileges of editing by continuing to edit war. Numerous editors have voiced their objections to these edits and yet you still insist on railroading them in instead of respecting the fact that no one but yourself supports their inclusion. You have been overruled three times over the past two years and waiting six months to return and re-insert them are tantamount to disruption and gaming with the system and I will report you if you persist in shoehorning in your views which are not even supported by sources. Like Davo has stated above, whatever they referred the khanate to, it was not something which someone in the 20th century comes and artificially calls Azerbaijani. -- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 16:38, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
I disagree with both Alborz Fallah and MarshallBagramyan. I will not bother commenting on the ignorant statement about 'artificial origins' of a language that has been a linguistic unit since at least the 16th century. What the language was called at the time is not an issue here. The German language was not a uniform entity (let alone having a written standard) until the times of Bismark and did not even have a universal name, yet we see modern German headings in articles such as Henry the Lion, Holy Roman Empire, German Peasants' War, etc. The point is that this was the name the majority of the population referred to their lands as, and so did their descendants until their total expulsion in 1991. What a language came to be called later is irrelevant. There are dozens of examples of languages whose names have been changed by the academia. This makes them neither 'artificial', nor 'historially non-valuable.' Parishan ( talk) 17:23, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian ( talk) 21:08, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Erivan khanate → Erivan Khanate – Same format as for the others in Category:Khanates. Aleksandr Krymsky ( talk) 21:55, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
This material, [10]- [11] that has been added on two occassions right now, is hoax. The source (in Russian) doesn't back up the added content in any way. - LouisAragon ( talk) 23:39, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
The Erivan Khanate was disputed between several states. According to Stepan Burnashov, russian representative in Georgia, Ottoman Empire in its friman, that was sent to Azerbaijan, "didn't recognized Erivan, as Azerbaijani city, as belonging to Georgian king"
Обстоятельные онаго донесения доставлены мне письменно после отправления рапорта, в коих, между протчим, означаетца, что Порта присланным в Адребежень ферманом объявляет себя защитницою Персии, что Еривань, яко город Адребеженски, не признает принадлежащым грузинскому царю
Ok, where do you see discrepancy? (Apologize for mistakes, my İELTS lvl is 6.5-7.0) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.117.135.17 ( talk) 19:43, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that this is the flag of the Yerevan Khanate? A reverse image search only brings up a handful of Azerbaijani articles. Ninetoyadome ( talk) 02:28, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
@ Ninetoyadome:, @ 92slim:, yes, I had found that PDF file myself as well. I initially thought you meant that there was some kind of online gallery where you could see it. I'm virtually entirely sure that its completely violating WP:RS however. I won't go into detail regarding the rather internationally reputable and "renowned" efforts of the government of the Azerbaijan Republic to falsify history, but this PDF seems to be another live attestment to that. What do you gentlemen think? I mean, seriously?.....;
....and so forth. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
The sources cited at its "bibliography" section, p. 25, are tourist websites, Wikipedia, and a few other state-owned websites. I believe we can safely conclude that this is an absolutely non- WP:RS source. - LouisAragon ( talk) 00:16, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
A user is pushing the view that just because the Erivan Khanate was part of the Persian Empire that the alternative names must have Persian first. Thankfully, WP:NCGN solves disputes like this by simply suggesting that we place these alternative names in alphabetical order. Under #2 of NCGN, we read:
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken).
Armenian and Azerbaijani, just like Persian, are relevant foreign languages. The Erivan Khanate is important for Armenians and Azerbaijanis as it is for Persians. To prioritize one language's importance over the other is not in the best interest of keeping neutrality within the first sentence of the lead. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 04:36, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Since Persian was the official language, then it has to come first. -- 92slim ( talk) 10:02, 22 November 2016 (UTC)Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages — i.e., (Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken).
@ LouisAragon: if you are quoting Bourtnoutian 1982 to insist that khanates were provinces, then please quote him all the way, including the passage where he says that these provinces were under nominal Persian control: "By the nineteenth century there were nine khanates in Transcaucasia under nominal Persian control", otherwise this is WP:Cherry-picking.
While Chopin does not say "Azerbaijanis", he says "Tatars" which was the term for Azerbaijanis at the time. Since the term is not mentioned overtly, I added it only as a link, not in the actual text as a form of compromise. You calling this "blatant (sic!) misrepresentation" (as if I linked the article Mayans or the Maori) was a bad faith remark. You have edited dozens on articles on the Caucasus and you are a member of WikiProject Caucasia; it cannot be news to you that "Tatar" in the context of the South Caucasus refers to Azeris (even ru:wiki with its continuous Armenian-Azeri clashes on controversial topics has long accepted this). Are you sure "blatant" is the word you are looking for? Do you in all honesty think that the article Turkic peoples that mentions Yakuts and the Kyrghyz is an appropriate link when talking about Turkic population of Erivan? In any case, linking it to Turkic peoples is just as "blatant" because not all Turkic peoples were called Tatar at the time. Parishan ( talk) 21:03, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
@ LouisAragon:, you seem to be active in the article, but I am still waiting for your reply. Parishan ( talk) 14:44, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Not sure where you're getting the "1982" from. Bournoutian has asserted in many of his works, a significant amount of whom are cited in the article, that these "khanates" were "provinces", whether under "nominal Persian control" or not.
"During the eighteenth century, Persian Armenia was composed of the provincial boundaries or Khanates (subdivided into Mahals) of Erevan and Nakhchivan (...)" -- Bournoutian, George A. (1980). "The Population of Persian Armenia Prior to and Immediately Following its Annexation to the Russian Empire: 1826-1832". The Wilson Center, Kennan Institute for Advanced Russian Studies: 1–2.
"A capable administrator, Ḥosaynqolī Khan managed, during his twenty-year tenure, to restore Armenian confidence in the Persian administration and made the khanate a model province." -- Kettenhofen, Erich; Bournoutian, George A.; Hewsen, Robert H. (1998). "EREVAN". Encyclopaedia Iranica, Vol. VIII, Fasc. 5. pp. 542–551
"Bournoutian, George A. (2016). The 1819 Russian Survey of the Khanate of Sheki: A Primary Source on the Demography and Economy of an Iranian Province Prior to its Annexation by Russia. Costa Mesa, California: Mazda Publishers. ISBN 978-1568593159."
So you are not here to build the article per the reliable sources, you are here to right great wrongs. Thank you. Your own words. Chopin makes no word of "Azerbaijanis", yet you made "Tatars" link to "Azerbaijanis". [14] These Tatars of the area were dubbed in later times as "Azerbaijanis", thats correct, but its still not what Chopin states, the author whom you cited. Whats also pretty endearing is that you additionally added a specialist in law / a prof in international law, a non-RS source, in order to back up the same thing. [15]
Oh, and btw, next time you want to "wait for a reply" on your self-formulated "essays", you should consider replying first to users who are waiting for about 6 months for you to give a source for your "claims"; [16]. Another beautiful, similar, and recent case where you have disregarded the reliable sources, and simply did what you wanted to do. - LouisAragon ( talk) 15:22, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
In the 1930s a number of Soviet historians, including the prominent Russian Orientalist, Ilya Petrushevskii, were instructed by the Kremlin to accept the totally unsubstantiated notion that the territory of the former Iranian khanates (except Yerevan, which had become Soviet Armenia) was part of an Azerbaijani nation. Petrushevskii's two important studies dealing with the South Caucasus, therefore, use the term Azerbaijan and Azerbaijani in his works on the history of the region from the sixteenth to the nineteenth centuries. Other Russian academics went even further and claimed that an Azeri nation had existed from ancient times and had continued to the present. Since all the Russian surveys and almost all nineteenth-century Russian primary sources referred to the Muslims who resided in the South Caucasus as "Tatars" and not "Azerbaijanis", Soviet historians simply substituted Azerbaijani for Tatars. Azeri historians and writers, starting in 1937, followed suit and began to view the three-thousand-year history of the region as that of Azerbaijan. The pre-Iranian, Iranian, and Arab eras were expunged. Anyone who lived in the territory of Soviet Azerbaijan was classified as Azeri; hence the great Iranian poet Nezami, who had written only in Persian, became the national poet of Azerbaijan.
Revert Seymur06 ( talk) 08:58, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Why is this antique map of the Erivan Khanate brings such a problem and an unfriendly reaction from the user LouisAragon, who is so much against this.map. Culminatio ( talk) 09:32, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
"Erevan Shah" is the oriental title of the Persian style ruler of "Greater Armenia".
10:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)10:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC) 43.242.178.227 ( talk) 10:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)\\\\\\\\\\10:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)10:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)10:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)10:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC) 43.242.178.227 ( talk) 10:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
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The Erivan Khanate did not include the Kagizman district. Ricardolindo2 ( talk) 04:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)