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I strongly object to the negative remarks made by Camembert on the Eric Schiller biography. In the first place, Camembert is not a chess player, or at least this name is unknown to chess. In addition, it can seen by his remarks about Judit Polgar that he knows nothing about chess or about her. It is further objectional that somebody can use a fake name to attack somebody on Wikipedia.
What I am objecting to is the following remarks by Camembert, "Many of them have received scathing reviews: reviewing for the Chess Cafe, Carsten Hansen said Schiller's tome on the Frankenstein-Dracula Variation of the Vienna Game was "by far THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER SEEN" [1], while Tony Miles' famous review of Unorthodox Chess Openings for Kingpin consisted of two words: "Utter crap."
I revised Schiller's biography and within just a few minutes Camembert put this all back in. I feel that he should be banned and blacklisted from Wikipedia for this.
The fact is that Eric Schiller has written more than one hundred published books on chess and dozens of published articles in academic publications on Linguistics. If he were such a bad writer as Camembert claims, nobody would buy his books and no publisher would publish them. In addition, the authors of the two negative reviews which Camembert cites were political oponents of Schiller (one of whom is now dead), so it is simply wrong to cite them.
I request that Camembert who knows nothing of which he speaks be banned from Wikipedia. Sam Sloan
I would suggest that either your comments are in bad faith or you do not know what you are talking about. Anyone who has published at least one hundred books ( and from memory claimed on the back of one book to have published around two hundred) cannot be a good writer. As Winter has demonstrated his works are filled with numerous historical and literary bloopers
While it may be the case that too much space is given to these arguments to suggest that these arguments are totally unmerited, and more that the wikipedian who wrote them deserves to be banned is risible. One of the main reasons Schiller is a notable figure is the scathing attacks made on him by Winter, Miles et al.
"Anybody who has published at least one hundred books cannot be a good writer???" If that doesn't deserve the Wiki-dunce-cap award of the year I don't know what does. "One of the main reasons Schiller is a notable figure is the scathing attacks made on him by Winter, Miles et al." He wrote over 100 books and yet you claim he is famous because of his REVIEWS? Walk into any bookstore in the USA you can see his name on the shelves--several times over--and yet you think that this man would be unheard of if it wasn't for book reviews? This is just all so much nonsense, and moreover the biography reads like it was written by a grade school child with a vendetta. I haven't made any edits but in my opinion this is one of the worst biographies I have read in Wikipedia, and I've read hundreds of them.
Daniel Freeman 03:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:07:00 GMT, "Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>I appreciate you sticking up for Schiller, but the paragraph you obkect to: > >> What I am objecting to is the following remarks by Camembert, "Many of >> them have received scathing reviews: reviewing for the Chess Cafe, >> Carsten Hansen said Schiller's tome on the Frankenstein-Dracula >> Variation of the Vienna Game was "by far THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER >> SEEN" [1], while Tony Miles' famous review of Unorthodox Chess >> Openings for Kingpin consisted of two words: "Utter crap." > >...is in fact entirely correct. I suppose you are saying that there should >be no mention of those two reviews. But for many of us that is what Schiller >is most famous for.
On 30 Aug 2005 23:29:31 -0700, "politikalhack@gmail.com" <politikalhack@gmail.com> wrote:
>Schiller has written more good books than he is generally given credit >for, but Alan O'Brien's remark is rather fair. > >Ten years or so ago, I remember making some deprecating remark about a >Schiller book (don't remember which one) which IMO was not good at all. > The next time I ran in to Eric, I felt obliged to reference the remark >and apologize: he good-naturedly said, "Don't worry, I'm used to it." > >Schiller gave a scathing but just review of my recent play
Yes. I am saying that those two quotes from negative reviews should not be included in any encyclopedia article. It would be perfectly OK to add External Links to those negative reviews, However, if you read an article in Encyclopedia Britannica, would you expect to find the words "THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER SEEN" and "Utter crap"?
An encyclopedia article should deal in facts, not opinions. Calling a Schiller book "Utter crap" is clearly an opinion. This comment should be removed from Wikipedia.
If such a comment appears in a book review or in a newsgroup such as rec.games.chess.politics, that is a different matter altogether, because the expression of personal opinions is called for there. You will notice that I have not complained about the more than one hundred personal attacks Bill Brock has directed towards me on rec.games.chess.politics, but I did object when Bill Brock attacked me on Wikipedia encyclopedia.
Another pont is that Eric Schiller writes his books to be read by 1500 players. His purpose is to entertain and to teach a little about chess while doing so. His book about the Frankenstein-Dracula Variation of the Vienna Game is a perfect example. It is filled with quotes and spoofs from Bram Stoker's Dracula and Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Naturally, a grandmaster like Miles or a FIDE Master like Hansen will not like such a book, but Schiller knows that they were not going to buy his book anyway. Schiller books are popular with lower-level players, and that is his intended audience.
I am also annoyed at the name "Frankenstein-Dracula Variation" of the Vienna Game. I looked this up and discovered that this is an opening I have been playing for Black since the early 1960s. I played the black side of this opening to defeat master Don Sutherland in the 1964 Northern California Championship at the Mechanics Institute in San Francisco. Who gave anybody the right to rename this old opening the Frankenstein-Dracula Variation of the Vienna Game?
By the way, is "Alan OBrien" the same person as Camembert?
Sam Sloan
Alan - here and No I am not!
There are several problems with your point. Perhaps most important is that Miles himself had a reputation. Miles was constantly attacking chess personalities in print. Among his many victims were Anatoly Karpov, Raymond Keene, Woman's Grandmaster Martha Fierro, Indian Chess Organizer Umar Koya, Nigel Short, and many others. The list is long. Any time you read a Miles article you could be almost certain that it would contain an attack on somebody.
It is well known that Miles even got into fistfights in chess tournaments. He even punched me out during the 1986 World Chess Olympiad in Dubai because of his mistaken belief that I had written something derogatory about him.
Miles was known to be mentally ill. He served time in both jails and mental hospitals.
The negative review by Miles of an Eric Schiller book must be taken in this context. Unfortunately, the original author of the article about Schiller appears not to be a chess player. His biography of himself describes himself as a "music student" and says nothing about chess. He probably did not even know that Miles was mentally ill and prone to attacks on people and he probably did not know that Schiller has written more than one hundred chess books and the fact that he has received two negative reviews means little.
Again it must be emphasized that Schiller states that he writes his books for Class C chess players. His point is a very good one, which is that there are only a few thousand chess masters in the world whereas there are millions of Class C players. Is it better to write a book for a few thousand potential readers, or for the millions? Schiller knows that chess masters rarely buy chess books. They have their own computer databases and do their own home analysis to prepare for tournaments. Class C players on the other hand will appreciate and buy a chess book with some tricky lines that their rival Class C players might fall into, even though the masters might consider the same lines to be unsound and unplayable at the top levels.
Sam Sloan
OK. I am satisfied with Camembert's balancing. The article is okay now.
Sam Sloan 19:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC) Sam Sloan Sam Sloan 19:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Camembert added quotes from a positive review of two of Schiller's books by John Watson, Schiller's sometime co-author. I think this is a good effort at providing balance -- ironic that Camembert rather than one of Schiller's defenders did this. Krakatoa 17:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
"I think any strong chessplayer will tell you that Eric Schiller is a complete hack of a writer." This gets a big loud resounding "so what??" Wikipedia indexes musical bands, does it not? Does it tell us which bands produce good music and which produce poor music? Wikipedia indexes painters, right? Does it say which ones are hacks and which ones are eminently talented? Wikipedia indexes actors? Does it mention which actors are talentless hacks and which ones are geniuses? The answers to all of this are, of course, "no", "no", "no", and "no". So why are authors treated differently? Daniel Freeman 10:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
What do you say we prune the list a little and include several of the more notable or better selling - the article is in danger of looking like an infomercial otherwise... -- SpinyNorman 06:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
What source is there for the claim that "Schiller was for many years the right-hand man of World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov."? What source is there for the claim that "Barnes & Noble bookstores have sold more than one hundred thousand books written by Eric Schiller"? (I agree with the "infomercial" comment of SpinyNorman.) - Louis Blair (6 March 2006)
...sounds like another infomercial. It would be a favor to Eric to shorten this.... Billbrock 04:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that he is not regarded as a good chess author because [1] gives example, can anyone put this in Controversies. Also please do this with Raymond Keene because he is involved. [ [2]] is a good place to start for info on chess please kindly search info about Schiller here as well.
This article has no balance on Eric Schillers ability. The quote "by far THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER SEEN" is a minor reference overplaying the issue. In my view that line should be removed. There are alternative opinions [3]. For a sense of balance read the article on George_W._Bush, here you have someone who has received widespread criticism yet you don't find the Wikipedia article focused on them or quoting the most explicit of them. SunCreator ( talk) 01:19, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't know that Carsten Hansen is little-known, but the relevant question is whether he is a "reliable source". He has been rated as high as 2560, written four well-reviewed chess books, and drawn 3 out of 3 games against Kasparov. As for the capitalization, it is as in the original. He wrote, "I have seen thousands of chess books over the years, but this book is by far THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER SEEN." I have no problem with the omission of the Bücker/Myers quote, even though I am the one who put it in. Krakatoa ( talk) 17:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I have re-added the Carsten Hansen quote, this time giving the full quote for context. If, as in Schiller's case, an author gets mostly horrible reviewers and an occasional decent review, the horrible reviews should get more coverage than the decent ones. As WP:NPOV explains, "Neutrality weights viewpoints in proportion to their prominence."
As for whether Hansen is a reliable source, he is a strong player, has written four well-received books himself, has done multiple book reviews, and by his own account has seen thousands of chess books. He explains in detail why he has such a low opinion of Schiller's book. I certainly consider him a reliable source on this issue. Indeed, his account is much better explained than Watson's. It can in fact be questioned whether the sort-of-favorable Watson quote should even be in the article, since as Schiller's co-author he has a pecuniary interest in having Schiller portrayed in a favorable light. Moreover, Watson's semi-admission that Schiller "probably deserves some of the criticism he gets" is deliberately weaselly. Watson is himself a very conscientious author, and in general a very conscientious reviewer; he is quite capable of looking at Schiller's books and the criticism of them and determining whether it is warranted. He has instead chosen in this one instance not to examine the evidence. I wonder why? Krakatoa ( talk) 21:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Incidentally, if your concern is that HANSEN IS SCREAMING AT THE READERS BY USING CAPS, and you don't think the readers' eyeballs should be assaulted this way, or that the use of caps gives undue emphasis to Hansen's opinion, I have no problem with changing it to lower-case and adding a parenthetical (Emphasis deleted) or some such to the reference. Krakatoa ( talk) 21:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I would agree that when this section first started, the coverage of Schiller's books was biased towards the negative, but I think it's now gone too far the other way. I think John Watson's quote on Schiller's work was fair (he has indeed written a number of quite good books, particularly the ones co-authored with Watson himself) but to say that "Amongst Schiller's large output, some of his books have received poor reviews related to the level expertise that the author was expected to be writing for" is POV. A sizeable percentage of his books have received poor reviews due to lack of substance and feeling 'rushed', i.e. nothing to do with the audience that they're intended for. Tws45 ( talk) 21:40, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
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I strongly object to the negative remarks made by Camembert on the Eric Schiller biography. In the first place, Camembert is not a chess player, or at least this name is unknown to chess. In addition, it can seen by his remarks about Judit Polgar that he knows nothing about chess or about her. It is further objectional that somebody can use a fake name to attack somebody on Wikipedia.
What I am objecting to is the following remarks by Camembert, "Many of them have received scathing reviews: reviewing for the Chess Cafe, Carsten Hansen said Schiller's tome on the Frankenstein-Dracula Variation of the Vienna Game was "by far THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER SEEN" [1], while Tony Miles' famous review of Unorthodox Chess Openings for Kingpin consisted of two words: "Utter crap."
I revised Schiller's biography and within just a few minutes Camembert put this all back in. I feel that he should be banned and blacklisted from Wikipedia for this.
The fact is that Eric Schiller has written more than one hundred published books on chess and dozens of published articles in academic publications on Linguistics. If he were such a bad writer as Camembert claims, nobody would buy his books and no publisher would publish them. In addition, the authors of the two negative reviews which Camembert cites were political oponents of Schiller (one of whom is now dead), so it is simply wrong to cite them.
I request that Camembert who knows nothing of which he speaks be banned from Wikipedia. Sam Sloan
I would suggest that either your comments are in bad faith or you do not know what you are talking about. Anyone who has published at least one hundred books ( and from memory claimed on the back of one book to have published around two hundred) cannot be a good writer. As Winter has demonstrated his works are filled with numerous historical and literary bloopers
While it may be the case that too much space is given to these arguments to suggest that these arguments are totally unmerited, and more that the wikipedian who wrote them deserves to be banned is risible. One of the main reasons Schiller is a notable figure is the scathing attacks made on him by Winter, Miles et al.
"Anybody who has published at least one hundred books cannot be a good writer???" If that doesn't deserve the Wiki-dunce-cap award of the year I don't know what does. "One of the main reasons Schiller is a notable figure is the scathing attacks made on him by Winter, Miles et al." He wrote over 100 books and yet you claim he is famous because of his REVIEWS? Walk into any bookstore in the USA you can see his name on the shelves--several times over--and yet you think that this man would be unheard of if it wasn't for book reviews? This is just all so much nonsense, and moreover the biography reads like it was written by a grade school child with a vendetta. I haven't made any edits but in my opinion this is one of the worst biographies I have read in Wikipedia, and I've read hundreds of them.
Daniel Freeman 03:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 06:07:00 GMT, "Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>I appreciate you sticking up for Schiller, but the paragraph you obkect to: > >> What I am objecting to is the following remarks by Camembert, "Many of >> them have received scathing reviews: reviewing for the Chess Cafe, >> Carsten Hansen said Schiller's tome on the Frankenstein-Dracula >> Variation of the Vienna Game was "by far THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER >> SEEN" [1], while Tony Miles' famous review of Unorthodox Chess >> Openings for Kingpin consisted of two words: "Utter crap." > >...is in fact entirely correct. I suppose you are saying that there should >be no mention of those two reviews. But for many of us that is what Schiller >is most famous for.
On 30 Aug 2005 23:29:31 -0700, "politikalhack@gmail.com" <politikalhack@gmail.com> wrote:
>Schiller has written more good books than he is generally given credit >for, but Alan O'Brien's remark is rather fair. > >Ten years or so ago, I remember making some deprecating remark about a >Schiller book (don't remember which one) which IMO was not good at all. > The next time I ran in to Eric, I felt obliged to reference the remark >and apologize: he good-naturedly said, "Don't worry, I'm used to it." > >Schiller gave a scathing but just review of my recent play
Yes. I am saying that those two quotes from negative reviews should not be included in any encyclopedia article. It would be perfectly OK to add External Links to those negative reviews, However, if you read an article in Encyclopedia Britannica, would you expect to find the words "THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER SEEN" and "Utter crap"?
An encyclopedia article should deal in facts, not opinions. Calling a Schiller book "Utter crap" is clearly an opinion. This comment should be removed from Wikipedia.
If such a comment appears in a book review or in a newsgroup such as rec.games.chess.politics, that is a different matter altogether, because the expression of personal opinions is called for there. You will notice that I have not complained about the more than one hundred personal attacks Bill Brock has directed towards me on rec.games.chess.politics, but I did object when Bill Brock attacked me on Wikipedia encyclopedia.
Another pont is that Eric Schiller writes his books to be read by 1500 players. His purpose is to entertain and to teach a little about chess while doing so. His book about the Frankenstein-Dracula Variation of the Vienna Game is a perfect example. It is filled with quotes and spoofs from Bram Stoker's Dracula and Mary Shelly's Frankenstein. Naturally, a grandmaster like Miles or a FIDE Master like Hansen will not like such a book, but Schiller knows that they were not going to buy his book anyway. Schiller books are popular with lower-level players, and that is his intended audience.
I am also annoyed at the name "Frankenstein-Dracula Variation" of the Vienna Game. I looked this up and discovered that this is an opening I have been playing for Black since the early 1960s. I played the black side of this opening to defeat master Don Sutherland in the 1964 Northern California Championship at the Mechanics Institute in San Francisco. Who gave anybody the right to rename this old opening the Frankenstein-Dracula Variation of the Vienna Game?
By the way, is "Alan OBrien" the same person as Camembert?
Sam Sloan
Alan - here and No I am not!
There are several problems with your point. Perhaps most important is that Miles himself had a reputation. Miles was constantly attacking chess personalities in print. Among his many victims were Anatoly Karpov, Raymond Keene, Woman's Grandmaster Martha Fierro, Indian Chess Organizer Umar Koya, Nigel Short, and many others. The list is long. Any time you read a Miles article you could be almost certain that it would contain an attack on somebody.
It is well known that Miles even got into fistfights in chess tournaments. He even punched me out during the 1986 World Chess Olympiad in Dubai because of his mistaken belief that I had written something derogatory about him.
Miles was known to be mentally ill. He served time in both jails and mental hospitals.
The negative review by Miles of an Eric Schiller book must be taken in this context. Unfortunately, the original author of the article about Schiller appears not to be a chess player. His biography of himself describes himself as a "music student" and says nothing about chess. He probably did not even know that Miles was mentally ill and prone to attacks on people and he probably did not know that Schiller has written more than one hundred chess books and the fact that he has received two negative reviews means little.
Again it must be emphasized that Schiller states that he writes his books for Class C chess players. His point is a very good one, which is that there are only a few thousand chess masters in the world whereas there are millions of Class C players. Is it better to write a book for a few thousand potential readers, or for the millions? Schiller knows that chess masters rarely buy chess books. They have their own computer databases and do their own home analysis to prepare for tournaments. Class C players on the other hand will appreciate and buy a chess book with some tricky lines that their rival Class C players might fall into, even though the masters might consider the same lines to be unsound and unplayable at the top levels.
Sam Sloan
OK. I am satisfied with Camembert's balancing. The article is okay now.
Sam Sloan 19:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC) Sam Sloan Sam Sloan 19:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Camembert added quotes from a positive review of two of Schiller's books by John Watson, Schiller's sometime co-author. I think this is a good effort at providing balance -- ironic that Camembert rather than one of Schiller's defenders did this. Krakatoa 17:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
"I think any strong chessplayer will tell you that Eric Schiller is a complete hack of a writer." This gets a big loud resounding "so what??" Wikipedia indexes musical bands, does it not? Does it tell us which bands produce good music and which produce poor music? Wikipedia indexes painters, right? Does it say which ones are hacks and which ones are eminently talented? Wikipedia indexes actors? Does it mention which actors are talentless hacks and which ones are geniuses? The answers to all of this are, of course, "no", "no", "no", and "no". So why are authors treated differently? Daniel Freeman 10:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
What do you say we prune the list a little and include several of the more notable or better selling - the article is in danger of looking like an infomercial otherwise... -- SpinyNorman 06:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
What source is there for the claim that "Schiller was for many years the right-hand man of World Chess Champion Garry Kasparov."? What source is there for the claim that "Barnes & Noble bookstores have sold more than one hundred thousand books written by Eric Schiller"? (I agree with the "infomercial" comment of SpinyNorman.) - Louis Blair (6 March 2006)
...sounds like another infomercial. It would be a favor to Eric to shorten this.... Billbrock 04:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that he is not regarded as a good chess author because [1] gives example, can anyone put this in Controversies. Also please do this with Raymond Keene because he is involved. [ [2]] is a good place to start for info on chess please kindly search info about Schiller here as well.
This article has no balance on Eric Schillers ability. The quote "by far THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER SEEN" is a minor reference overplaying the issue. In my view that line should be removed. There are alternative opinions [3]. For a sense of balance read the article on George_W._Bush, here you have someone who has received widespread criticism yet you don't find the Wikipedia article focused on them or quoting the most explicit of them. SunCreator ( talk) 01:19, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't know that Carsten Hansen is little-known, but the relevant question is whether he is a "reliable source". He has been rated as high as 2560, written four well-reviewed chess books, and drawn 3 out of 3 games against Kasparov. As for the capitalization, it is as in the original. He wrote, "I have seen thousands of chess books over the years, but this book is by far THE WORST BOOK I HAVE EVER SEEN." I have no problem with the omission of the Bücker/Myers quote, even though I am the one who put it in. Krakatoa ( talk) 17:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I have re-added the Carsten Hansen quote, this time giving the full quote for context. If, as in Schiller's case, an author gets mostly horrible reviewers and an occasional decent review, the horrible reviews should get more coverage than the decent ones. As WP:NPOV explains, "Neutrality weights viewpoints in proportion to their prominence."
As for whether Hansen is a reliable source, he is a strong player, has written four well-received books himself, has done multiple book reviews, and by his own account has seen thousands of chess books. He explains in detail why he has such a low opinion of Schiller's book. I certainly consider him a reliable source on this issue. Indeed, his account is much better explained than Watson's. It can in fact be questioned whether the sort-of-favorable Watson quote should even be in the article, since as Schiller's co-author he has a pecuniary interest in having Schiller portrayed in a favorable light. Moreover, Watson's semi-admission that Schiller "probably deserves some of the criticism he gets" is deliberately weaselly. Watson is himself a very conscientious author, and in general a very conscientious reviewer; he is quite capable of looking at Schiller's books and the criticism of them and determining whether it is warranted. He has instead chosen in this one instance not to examine the evidence. I wonder why? Krakatoa ( talk) 21:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Incidentally, if your concern is that HANSEN IS SCREAMING AT THE READERS BY USING CAPS, and you don't think the readers' eyeballs should be assaulted this way, or that the use of caps gives undue emphasis to Hansen's opinion, I have no problem with changing it to lower-case and adding a parenthetical (Emphasis deleted) or some such to the reference. Krakatoa ( talk) 21:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I would agree that when this section first started, the coverage of Schiller's books was biased towards the negative, but I think it's now gone too far the other way. I think John Watson's quote on Schiller's work was fair (he has indeed written a number of quite good books, particularly the ones co-authored with Watson himself) but to say that "Amongst Schiller's large output, some of his books have received poor reviews related to the level expertise that the author was expected to be writing for" is POV. A sizeable percentage of his books have received poor reviews due to lack of substance and feeling 'rushed', i.e. nothing to do with the audience that they're intended for. Tws45 ( talk) 21:40, 16 March 2012 (UTC)