This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"Unnamed critics" are repeatedly referenced in this article. Any criticism should be specifically attributed and sourced. Cite your sources. - Willmcw 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude 02:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Can we please see some of these politicial conservatives? Thanks, - Willmcw 21:05, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
I search on "Foner un-american" and couldn't find any relevant citations. - Willmcw 21:47, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for finding those critics. You are good at research. I added a description of Horowitz's criticism and dropped the inaccurate generalization. Much better now. Cheers, - Willmcw 06:14, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
What do we mean when we call Foner a "Communist"? Is he a member of the Communist Party? It is n't mentioned in the article. His use of certain Marxist concepts in scholarship does not seem sufficient evidence, nor do his uncle's ties to the CP. Any explanation? Thanks. - Willmcw July 5, 2005 07:10 (UTC)
What are our sources for these assertions? Thakns, - Willmcw 04:51, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi Rangerdude. Thank you for your kind email. I tried to write you back directly, but I see you have blocked incoming messages. I am sorry about that. In any event, thank you for your helpful suggestions. I will learn to use the tags you suggested. In the meantime, I hope we can reach agreement on the few items on which we seem to disagree. These appear to be:
Neo-Marxist. The cited Radosh article does maintain that Foner is a neo-Marxist, but it seems a big stretch to leap from one person's characterization to an encyclopedia's definitive claim. As I wrote in my edit, the fact that Foner is past President of two of the country's leading historical trade associations and has done extensive work for Disney and the National Parks Service, not to mention his heaps of awards and textbook, suggests that his political views are mainstream. At a bare minimum, there is a substantial difference of opinion. Therefore, in interest of a neutral point of view, I suggest the characterization be removed.
Soviet Politics. Please provide specific verifiable evidence for this claim. Simply to say that a member of Foner's family was a communist, and therefore he was interested in Soviet politics does not constitute verifiability as defined by Wikipedia.
Gorbachev/Robson. Same comments. If you have a source, please cite it specifically, by URL if possible, so we can discuss it together and evaluate whether it meets Wikipedia standards. Even the piece on DiscoverTheNetworks, for example (which I would not consider a "credible source" as defined by Wikipedia) does not say that Foner was interested in Soviet politics in his youth, nor does it say that he was an "early admirer" of Gorbachev and Robson. All that is there is his quotation of Robson's definition of patriotism at the Columbia rally.
Eric the Red. Same observation, except that here I can't find any mention at all of the appellation in the links at the bottom.
Confederate flag. First, in the cited piece Foner does not '[write] approvingly of removing Confederate flags from public display." He takes no position on removing the flag. What he does do is put the debate in historical context. He says "One hopes that when the flag comes down ..." not that he hopes the flag will come down. Second, Foner is not a columnist for the Nation. He writes occasional articles for them and, as noted above, is on their Board.
In sum, with respect, I suggest that this first paragraph should be removed since the items it contains are not verifiable and are therefore out of place in an encyclopedia. We have not stinted in any way to describe the arguments of, and link to, Foner's critics.
Here are the sources for my additions to the Criticism section:
Mainstream opinion is effusive in its praise for Foner. "Eric Foner is one of the most prolific, creative, and influential American historians of the past 20 years," says the Washington Post. Review printed in The Story of American Freedom. 1998: W.W. Norton & Company. Review page.
His work is "brilliant, important" says the Los Angeles Times. Review of The Story of American Freedom. 1998: W.W. Norton & Company. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0393319628/ref=dp_proddesc_0/104-6639761-6788747?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=507846
Presidential advisor Karl Rove has described Foner as one of his favorite authors. http://bnfp.org/neighborhood/Lemann_Rove_NYM.htm
Journalist Nat Hentoff called his Story of American Freedom "an indispensable book that should be read in every school in the land." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3812/is_200003/ai_n8891943. Review also printed in The Story of American Freedom. 1998: W.W. Norton & Company. Review page.
Luath - Thanks for your note. Regarding your points:
1. FrontPageMag/Discover the Networks - It is true that these sources are political in nature, but that does not necessarily make them non-credible by wikipedia standards. Indeed, Wikipedia's citation standards contain a specific caveat permitting political sources when they are used to represent a position taken by that political source, and in the paragraph above the information is clearly presented as a criticism of Foner's politics by those who disagree with him. Furthermore, if you actually check the links on these sites you will see that they include direct quotations of Foner himself praising Robeson etc. So even if the source is highly partisan, several things it includes are documented matters of fact.
2. Eric the Red - while not every google hit is going to provide a match that shows the name being used in this context, a simple glance at them reveals that some of them do indeed do just that. IIRC one of the first hits was to Freerepublic - a well known conservative site. That in mind, I will agree to changing the sentence to "His political views have given rise to his nickname "Eric the Red" among conservative critics of his politics" instead of Columbia students.
3. Marxist - the sentence as currently phrased does not define Foner as neo-Marxist but rather says he "is often criticized for being neo-Marxist" - something that is sourced by the links to conservative critics who take issue with his politics (remember this is all under the criticisms section as well). Rangerdude 23:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I cannot find anyone who misattributed de Genova's Mogadishu comment to Foner. Therefore, I am going to suggest that the entire "Misattributed" section be deleted. He presumably does not beat his wife either, but I don't think we need a "Misattributed Claim of Wife Beating" section.
Does anyone have a source supporting him being Namoi FG's brother. Some places are reporting him as her ex-husband. 16:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Naomi Foner Gyllenhaal is his first and ex wife, not his sister. I edited the article and provided a letter from Eric Foner correcting the Columbia Daily Spectator, which made the same error, as the source. Calindigo
A user recently reverted my changes to his new material saying they were "POV edits with an ax to grind." They were mostly a cleanup and adding internal links. I recommend that others look through the history and see which version is less POV, as the article currently stands, David Horowitz is called an "extreme rightwing critic" and the war in Iraq is specifically " George W. Bush's Iraq war". -- Cúchullain t/ c 05:29, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Horowitz is an extreme rightwinger who makes ad hominem attacks so frequently that anyone outside his band of acoylytes can not take him seriously.
If GW Bush did not start the war in Iraq, who did?
This is a biographical page that is supposed to be about Eric Foner, a contemporary historian and former head of the American Historical Association. This article is short on biographical details -- and deficient even in the area of his book titles-- and long on ad hominem attacks against him. skywriter 05:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that several anonymous users blanked the bio section and introduced puerile errors into the text. I have reverted all of it back to
20:27, September 11, 2006 LeoO3 (Talk | contribs) m (→Criticism)
While a few edits, including by me, are missed, it is better than what the little kids introduced. Skywriter 19:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Kevin C. Murphy, one of his graduate students, praises Foner: "Beloved by undergraduates and reviled by right-wing ideologues, Columbia University's Eric Foner is arguably the world's foremost authority on the tumultuous period of American Reconstruction (1865-1877). Foner placed newly freed Africans-Americans at the center of the post-Civil War story and, in so doing, illustrated the brief moments of political and social possibility available for Southern blacks before the racial and economic discrimination of Jim Crow was enthroned throughout the 'New South.'" [13]
First, what is the point of having just some random graduate student's praise of Foner in here? Does this Kevin Murphy have anything that makes him more significant than another student who might criticize him?
Second, are the parentheses for Reconstruction part of Murphy's text or was it added in, because either way, the dates are wrong. Reconstruction started at least in 1863 with Lincoln's 10% plan and 1864's subsequent Wade-Davis bill. One could even argue that Reconstruction started in 1861 with the Sea Isles experiments off South Carolina. At any rate, either (a) the dates should be corrected or (b) it should be made more clear whether or not these dates are part of this Murphy's quote or was included by the editors of wikipedia. 66.10.167.1 14:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear User:66.10.167.1, You may agree "on all accounts" but your history at Wikipedia is less than sterling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:66.10.167.1 Skywriter 06:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
One version of our text says:
Another version says:
The source says:
It appears to me that the subject is criticizing Ashcroft and Norton for praising Confederate issues, not for conducting interviews. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
A net search for rjensen or Richard Jensen, defender of, apologist for and writer of paean to Strom Thurmond [4], will turn up that he is both a Wiki editor and owner of a conservative list. On Wikipedia, rjensen often tries to hide that he is unabashedly right wing in political orientation under the guise of either "neutrality" or "scholarship". I believe his viewpoint should be included because Wikipedia is inclusive but that rjensen's actions in removing the work of other editors who represent opposing viewpoints should be firmly dealt with. Other Wiki editors need to bear in mind that when rjensen adds or edits copy, he adds the most conservative and often the most racially offensive references, text and photos he can find. This problem afflicts the entire discussion of Reconstruction after the Civil War and most articles that link to it where rjensen is very active. So there is an inbred bias in these articles that are fundamentally hostile to an honest assessment of the history of African American people and that are favorable to sources that have long been discredited by at least the last two generations of mainstream historians.
One of the most shocking abuses of Wikipedia editing by rjensen has occurred in the bio article on James Shepherd Pike in which rjensen all but erased the contributions, which were added, of Robert Franklin Durden, former chairman of the department of history at Duke University.
Why is dishonest scholarship, such as this, on Wikipedia?
Durden wrote the definitive biography of James Shepherd Pike and yet rjensen removed all references to Durden's work from the biographical article except the footnote, and one article available only by subscription.
On the cover of his book, Durden wrote that he was prompted to write his book James Shepherd Pike: Republicanism and the American Negro, 1850-1882 to answer this question: "how did James S. Pike come to write The Prostrate State: South Carolina under Negro Government?" "The book, published in 1873, is a firey indictment of Radical Reconstruction and the Negro's role therein; indeed it is the verbal equivalent of Thomas Nast's bitterly satiric cartoons of the period." Why is this important? To understand the way the history of Reconstruction was written, one must go back to Pike's work of fiction (that paraded as history) which influenced an entire generation of historians who subsequently influeneced the writing of textbooks in the United States for the first half of the 20th century. Durden examined the original manuscripts and detailed how Pike had made up his version of Reconstruction.
Richard Jensen's deletions of Durden's work is serious because, in a full-length book, which the subject deserved, Durden compared Pike's fictionarl account to original manuscripts.
Pike's fictions are the linchpin of many of the racist textbooks written about Reconstruction in the early 20th century, all now firmly rejected by mainstream historians, yet thse are the texts that rjensen quotes extensively from on Wikipedia.
So while it disgusts me to see what Richard Jensen is trying to do to the article on Eric Foner, seen in the article history on the the contemporary historian known most widely for overturning the viciously racist accounts of Reconstruction history, it is not surprising that Jensen did this. It is the reason for the distortions in a wide range of articles that link to the Reconstruction, articles that are more than mildly repulsive because they falsify the history of African Americans and the struggle for Civil Rights. The articles that rjensen dominates are unfair to all readers because they distort history in non-benign ways.
Aside from Foner's contributions, there is too much solid work done by entire recent generations of scholars on the facets of the history of Reconstruction and the civil rights movement for rjensen's versions to be taken seriously by serious scholars. He pushes a viewpoint long ago discarded on the dust heap of falsified history. It is a shame rjensen has the time, in retirement, to work these articles nonstop day and night. Others have countered the narrow and racially biased viewpoint of this Energizer Bunny that champions the Dunning School which is based very much on the fictions written by James Shepherd Pike but few of us have the leisure of time to fight rjensen's history of bigotry on Wikipedia in a sustained manner.
I will add that when I saw Richard Jensen's erasure of the contributions of Robert Franklin Durden, biographer of James Shepherd Pike, from this article on Pike, I greatly cut down on my contributions to Wikipedia in disgust.
Here's one of several examples from the history of that article. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=James_Shepherd_Pike&diff=61529346&oldid=61220384
Do not take my word for this. Get a copy of Durden's book on Pike and decide for yourself.
Skywriter 20:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
To demonstrate that I am not 'whistling Dixie,' I will add that the dominant photo, the largest cartoon on Reconstruction is deeply offensive to African Americans and most everyone else. Now I can hear rjensen defending its use and its size (!) with the claim that Eric Foner found and used it first. My reply is that Foner put it in context. The Reconstruction article does not do that, and all things considered, this graphic is both hostile to, and does violence to the history of African American people and it is not reflective of the work of Eric Foner, Richard Nelson Current, Robert Durden, Leon Litwack or the many other giants of Reconstruction scholarship. This article and those that link to it are an embarrassment to Wikipedia and humiliating to African American people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Image:Free-bur.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Image:Free-bur.jpg&action=history
There were many graphics that Richard Jensen could have been chosen to be the centerpiece of the Reconstruction article. That Richard Jensen, owner and editor of the editor of Conservativenet, [5] chose and uploaded the most vile graphic he could find, tells volumes about the rjensen agenda.
Richard Jensen actually uploaded this piece of filth to a second article that linked to Reconstruction and I took it down.
Skywriter 20:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
If people want to include a section on criticism that is fine. I think we might want to expand it to include more important criticism (both Foner's and others). This gives people a better understanding/sense of Mr. Foner's beliefs (political and scholastic). I don't want to change the article without testing the waters because I know a lot of people have been working on and discussing this to try and make improvements. Also, his views are somewhat polarizing politically and I don't want to be accused of partisanship and bias. Some suggested criticism to add include: Foner's criticism of Ronald Radosh's book about Julius and Ethel Rosenberg upheld the standards of historical scholarship (it was a significant critique and drew the attention of Ann Coulter years later). Also, Foner has been criticized sharply for writing in the London Review of Books days after the 9/11 attacks, "I'm not sure which is more frightening: the horror that engulfed New York City or the apocalyptic rhetoric emanating daily from the White House." [6]Just some suggestions because I know that these are some of the more significant critiques by Foner and of Foner. Jefflerm 05:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Jefflerm offers no evidence (citation) to support that "Foner has been criticized sharply for writing in the London Review of Books..." and so that can be safely ignored. Whatever spews from Coulter's mouth is designed to bring publicity to herself. She is not a historian or an academic and is herself grossly controversial, particularly when she calls for the assassination of people with whom she disagrees. Skywriter 17:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is a link for the criticism. [7] Sorry I didn't include that, I linked in the wrong link. As for the thing about Coulter, the point was that Foner had made a critique that shot down a controversial, anti-communist book written by Radosh. Coulter later went on a ridiculous diatribe about it. I included the Coulter reference because I thought some of you might have remebered when she talked about it and it would refresh your memory. It has nothing to do with Coulter and I regret bringing her name up because nobody remembered her comments anyway. Sorry. His critique on Radosh's book is significant and I'm searching for the exact article right now. I can find snippets of it, but I will link it in when I find all of it because it really is some of Foner's best work. Jefflerm 03:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
My intention was not to stir the pot here, but I found it odd that the criticism section included a lot of stuff that had nothing to do with, as Tom said, "his historical works". In particular, I am talking about the critiques of David Horowitz, Daniel Pipes and Bernard Goldberg. These are completely unrelated to his historical/academic works. Also, the part about Ashcroft and Norton is unrelated to his historical works. That is why I thought we should change the section. Either add more or delete anything that isn't directly related to his academic work. Some of Foner's articles after 9/11 gained him some attention, and that is when I began to read him. However, some of these articles came under sharp criticism from right-wingers and families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks. We don't necessarily have to use the one in the London Review of Books but I thought we should include something on that since he was an important voice during that time. Just a suggestion because the current criticism page does not all pretain to his books and other academic/scholarly work. Jefflerm 04:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just making an observation; why is "Secession and the Soviet Union" at the bottom of the article under "Works by Eric Foner"? It seems a bit silly. Could someone please move it? Sorry I don't know how to.
N -- 78.150.213.131 ( talk) 12:13, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Foner and other historians have published articles in journalism magazines, but it does not seem appropriate to list so many here. Usually articles to be listed would be those in professional journals of the academic discipline; the ones here relate to Foner as a public intellectual, drawing from his discipline as a historian to comment on US society. But these are not his main work. Maybe they should be listed in a separate category. Parkwells ( talk) 14:31, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 21:13, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 23:01, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://columbialawreview.org/the-supreme-court-and-the-history-of-reconstruction-and-vice-versa/When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:17, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:08, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:59, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://newswire.ascribe.org/cgi-bin/behold.pl?ascribeid=20110210.071303&time=02%2000%20PST&year=2011&public=0When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:35, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
"Unnamed critics" are repeatedly referenced in this article. Any criticism should be specifically attributed and sourced. Cite your sources. - Willmcw 02:13, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Rangerdude 02:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Can we please see some of these politicial conservatives? Thanks, - Willmcw 21:05, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
I search on "Foner un-american" and couldn't find any relevant citations. - Willmcw 21:47, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for finding those critics. You are good at research. I added a description of Horowitz's criticism and dropped the inaccurate generalization. Much better now. Cheers, - Willmcw 06:14, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
What do we mean when we call Foner a "Communist"? Is he a member of the Communist Party? It is n't mentioned in the article. His use of certain Marxist concepts in scholarship does not seem sufficient evidence, nor do his uncle's ties to the CP. Any explanation? Thanks. - Willmcw July 5, 2005 07:10 (UTC)
What are our sources for these assertions? Thakns, - Willmcw 04:51, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi Rangerdude. Thank you for your kind email. I tried to write you back directly, but I see you have blocked incoming messages. I am sorry about that. In any event, thank you for your helpful suggestions. I will learn to use the tags you suggested. In the meantime, I hope we can reach agreement on the few items on which we seem to disagree. These appear to be:
Neo-Marxist. The cited Radosh article does maintain that Foner is a neo-Marxist, but it seems a big stretch to leap from one person's characterization to an encyclopedia's definitive claim. As I wrote in my edit, the fact that Foner is past President of two of the country's leading historical trade associations and has done extensive work for Disney and the National Parks Service, not to mention his heaps of awards and textbook, suggests that his political views are mainstream. At a bare minimum, there is a substantial difference of opinion. Therefore, in interest of a neutral point of view, I suggest the characterization be removed.
Soviet Politics. Please provide specific verifiable evidence for this claim. Simply to say that a member of Foner's family was a communist, and therefore he was interested in Soviet politics does not constitute verifiability as defined by Wikipedia.
Gorbachev/Robson. Same comments. If you have a source, please cite it specifically, by URL if possible, so we can discuss it together and evaluate whether it meets Wikipedia standards. Even the piece on DiscoverTheNetworks, for example (which I would not consider a "credible source" as defined by Wikipedia) does not say that Foner was interested in Soviet politics in his youth, nor does it say that he was an "early admirer" of Gorbachev and Robson. All that is there is his quotation of Robson's definition of patriotism at the Columbia rally.
Eric the Red. Same observation, except that here I can't find any mention at all of the appellation in the links at the bottom.
Confederate flag. First, in the cited piece Foner does not '[write] approvingly of removing Confederate flags from public display." He takes no position on removing the flag. What he does do is put the debate in historical context. He says "One hopes that when the flag comes down ..." not that he hopes the flag will come down. Second, Foner is not a columnist for the Nation. He writes occasional articles for them and, as noted above, is on their Board.
In sum, with respect, I suggest that this first paragraph should be removed since the items it contains are not verifiable and are therefore out of place in an encyclopedia. We have not stinted in any way to describe the arguments of, and link to, Foner's critics.
Here are the sources for my additions to the Criticism section:
Mainstream opinion is effusive in its praise for Foner. "Eric Foner is one of the most prolific, creative, and influential American historians of the past 20 years," says the Washington Post. Review printed in The Story of American Freedom. 1998: W.W. Norton & Company. Review page.
His work is "brilliant, important" says the Los Angeles Times. Review of The Story of American Freedom. 1998: W.W. Norton & Company. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0393319628/ref=dp_proddesc_0/104-6639761-6788747?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=507846
Presidential advisor Karl Rove has described Foner as one of his favorite authors. http://bnfp.org/neighborhood/Lemann_Rove_NYM.htm
Journalist Nat Hentoff called his Story of American Freedom "an indispensable book that should be read in every school in the land." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3812/is_200003/ai_n8891943. Review also printed in The Story of American Freedom. 1998: W.W. Norton & Company. Review page.
Luath - Thanks for your note. Regarding your points:
1. FrontPageMag/Discover the Networks - It is true that these sources are political in nature, but that does not necessarily make them non-credible by wikipedia standards. Indeed, Wikipedia's citation standards contain a specific caveat permitting political sources when they are used to represent a position taken by that political source, and in the paragraph above the information is clearly presented as a criticism of Foner's politics by those who disagree with him. Furthermore, if you actually check the links on these sites you will see that they include direct quotations of Foner himself praising Robeson etc. So even if the source is highly partisan, several things it includes are documented matters of fact.
2. Eric the Red - while not every google hit is going to provide a match that shows the name being used in this context, a simple glance at them reveals that some of them do indeed do just that. IIRC one of the first hits was to Freerepublic - a well known conservative site. That in mind, I will agree to changing the sentence to "His political views have given rise to his nickname "Eric the Red" among conservative critics of his politics" instead of Columbia students.
3. Marxist - the sentence as currently phrased does not define Foner as neo-Marxist but rather says he "is often criticized for being neo-Marxist" - something that is sourced by the links to conservative critics who take issue with his politics (remember this is all under the criticisms section as well). Rangerdude 23:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I cannot find anyone who misattributed de Genova's Mogadishu comment to Foner. Therefore, I am going to suggest that the entire "Misattributed" section be deleted. He presumably does not beat his wife either, but I don't think we need a "Misattributed Claim of Wife Beating" section.
Does anyone have a source supporting him being Namoi FG's brother. Some places are reporting him as her ex-husband. 16:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Naomi Foner Gyllenhaal is his first and ex wife, not his sister. I edited the article and provided a letter from Eric Foner correcting the Columbia Daily Spectator, which made the same error, as the source. Calindigo
A user recently reverted my changes to his new material saying they were "POV edits with an ax to grind." They were mostly a cleanup and adding internal links. I recommend that others look through the history and see which version is less POV, as the article currently stands, David Horowitz is called an "extreme rightwing critic" and the war in Iraq is specifically " George W. Bush's Iraq war". -- Cúchullain t/ c 05:29, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Horowitz is an extreme rightwinger who makes ad hominem attacks so frequently that anyone outside his band of acoylytes can not take him seriously.
If GW Bush did not start the war in Iraq, who did?
This is a biographical page that is supposed to be about Eric Foner, a contemporary historian and former head of the American Historical Association. This article is short on biographical details -- and deficient even in the area of his book titles-- and long on ad hominem attacks against him. skywriter 05:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that several anonymous users blanked the bio section and introduced puerile errors into the text. I have reverted all of it back to
20:27, September 11, 2006 LeoO3 (Talk | contribs) m (→Criticism)
While a few edits, including by me, are missed, it is better than what the little kids introduced. Skywriter 19:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Kevin C. Murphy, one of his graduate students, praises Foner: "Beloved by undergraduates and reviled by right-wing ideologues, Columbia University's Eric Foner is arguably the world's foremost authority on the tumultuous period of American Reconstruction (1865-1877). Foner placed newly freed Africans-Americans at the center of the post-Civil War story and, in so doing, illustrated the brief moments of political and social possibility available for Southern blacks before the racial and economic discrimination of Jim Crow was enthroned throughout the 'New South.'" [13]
First, what is the point of having just some random graduate student's praise of Foner in here? Does this Kevin Murphy have anything that makes him more significant than another student who might criticize him?
Second, are the parentheses for Reconstruction part of Murphy's text or was it added in, because either way, the dates are wrong. Reconstruction started at least in 1863 with Lincoln's 10% plan and 1864's subsequent Wade-Davis bill. One could even argue that Reconstruction started in 1861 with the Sea Isles experiments off South Carolina. At any rate, either (a) the dates should be corrected or (b) it should be made more clear whether or not these dates are part of this Murphy's quote or was included by the editors of wikipedia. 66.10.167.1 14:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear User:66.10.167.1, You may agree "on all accounts" but your history at Wikipedia is less than sterling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:66.10.167.1 Skywriter 06:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
One version of our text says:
Another version says:
The source says:
It appears to me that the subject is criticizing Ashcroft and Norton for praising Confederate issues, not for conducting interviews. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
A net search for rjensen or Richard Jensen, defender of, apologist for and writer of paean to Strom Thurmond [4], will turn up that he is both a Wiki editor and owner of a conservative list. On Wikipedia, rjensen often tries to hide that he is unabashedly right wing in political orientation under the guise of either "neutrality" or "scholarship". I believe his viewpoint should be included because Wikipedia is inclusive but that rjensen's actions in removing the work of other editors who represent opposing viewpoints should be firmly dealt with. Other Wiki editors need to bear in mind that when rjensen adds or edits copy, he adds the most conservative and often the most racially offensive references, text and photos he can find. This problem afflicts the entire discussion of Reconstruction after the Civil War and most articles that link to it where rjensen is very active. So there is an inbred bias in these articles that are fundamentally hostile to an honest assessment of the history of African American people and that are favorable to sources that have long been discredited by at least the last two generations of mainstream historians.
One of the most shocking abuses of Wikipedia editing by rjensen has occurred in the bio article on James Shepherd Pike in which rjensen all but erased the contributions, which were added, of Robert Franklin Durden, former chairman of the department of history at Duke University.
Why is dishonest scholarship, such as this, on Wikipedia?
Durden wrote the definitive biography of James Shepherd Pike and yet rjensen removed all references to Durden's work from the biographical article except the footnote, and one article available only by subscription.
On the cover of his book, Durden wrote that he was prompted to write his book James Shepherd Pike: Republicanism and the American Negro, 1850-1882 to answer this question: "how did James S. Pike come to write The Prostrate State: South Carolina under Negro Government?" "The book, published in 1873, is a firey indictment of Radical Reconstruction and the Negro's role therein; indeed it is the verbal equivalent of Thomas Nast's bitterly satiric cartoons of the period." Why is this important? To understand the way the history of Reconstruction was written, one must go back to Pike's work of fiction (that paraded as history) which influenced an entire generation of historians who subsequently influeneced the writing of textbooks in the United States for the first half of the 20th century. Durden examined the original manuscripts and detailed how Pike had made up his version of Reconstruction.
Richard Jensen's deletions of Durden's work is serious because, in a full-length book, which the subject deserved, Durden compared Pike's fictionarl account to original manuscripts.
Pike's fictions are the linchpin of many of the racist textbooks written about Reconstruction in the early 20th century, all now firmly rejected by mainstream historians, yet thse are the texts that rjensen quotes extensively from on Wikipedia.
So while it disgusts me to see what Richard Jensen is trying to do to the article on Eric Foner, seen in the article history on the the contemporary historian known most widely for overturning the viciously racist accounts of Reconstruction history, it is not surprising that Jensen did this. It is the reason for the distortions in a wide range of articles that link to the Reconstruction, articles that are more than mildly repulsive because they falsify the history of African Americans and the struggle for Civil Rights. The articles that rjensen dominates are unfair to all readers because they distort history in non-benign ways.
Aside from Foner's contributions, there is too much solid work done by entire recent generations of scholars on the facets of the history of Reconstruction and the civil rights movement for rjensen's versions to be taken seriously by serious scholars. He pushes a viewpoint long ago discarded on the dust heap of falsified history. It is a shame rjensen has the time, in retirement, to work these articles nonstop day and night. Others have countered the narrow and racially biased viewpoint of this Energizer Bunny that champions the Dunning School which is based very much on the fictions written by James Shepherd Pike but few of us have the leisure of time to fight rjensen's history of bigotry on Wikipedia in a sustained manner.
I will add that when I saw Richard Jensen's erasure of the contributions of Robert Franklin Durden, biographer of James Shepherd Pike, from this article on Pike, I greatly cut down on my contributions to Wikipedia in disgust.
Here's one of several examples from the history of that article. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=James_Shepherd_Pike&diff=61529346&oldid=61220384
Do not take my word for this. Get a copy of Durden's book on Pike and decide for yourself.
Skywriter 20:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
To demonstrate that I am not 'whistling Dixie,' I will add that the dominant photo, the largest cartoon on Reconstruction is deeply offensive to African Americans and most everyone else. Now I can hear rjensen defending its use and its size (!) with the claim that Eric Foner found and used it first. My reply is that Foner put it in context. The Reconstruction article does not do that, and all things considered, this graphic is both hostile to, and does violence to the history of African American people and it is not reflective of the work of Eric Foner, Richard Nelson Current, Robert Durden, Leon Litwack or the many other giants of Reconstruction scholarship. This article and those that link to it are an embarrassment to Wikipedia and humiliating to African American people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Image:Free-bur.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Image:Free-bur.jpg&action=history
There were many graphics that Richard Jensen could have been chosen to be the centerpiece of the Reconstruction article. That Richard Jensen, owner and editor of the editor of Conservativenet, [5] chose and uploaded the most vile graphic he could find, tells volumes about the rjensen agenda.
Richard Jensen actually uploaded this piece of filth to a second article that linked to Reconstruction and I took it down.
Skywriter 20:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
If people want to include a section on criticism that is fine. I think we might want to expand it to include more important criticism (both Foner's and others). This gives people a better understanding/sense of Mr. Foner's beliefs (political and scholastic). I don't want to change the article without testing the waters because I know a lot of people have been working on and discussing this to try and make improvements. Also, his views are somewhat polarizing politically and I don't want to be accused of partisanship and bias. Some suggested criticism to add include: Foner's criticism of Ronald Radosh's book about Julius and Ethel Rosenberg upheld the standards of historical scholarship (it was a significant critique and drew the attention of Ann Coulter years later). Also, Foner has been criticized sharply for writing in the London Review of Books days after the 9/11 attacks, "I'm not sure which is more frightening: the horror that engulfed New York City or the apocalyptic rhetoric emanating daily from the White House." [6]Just some suggestions because I know that these are some of the more significant critiques by Foner and of Foner. Jefflerm 05:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Jefflerm offers no evidence (citation) to support that "Foner has been criticized sharply for writing in the London Review of Books..." and so that can be safely ignored. Whatever spews from Coulter's mouth is designed to bring publicity to herself. She is not a historian or an academic and is herself grossly controversial, particularly when she calls for the assassination of people with whom she disagrees. Skywriter 17:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is a link for the criticism. [7] Sorry I didn't include that, I linked in the wrong link. As for the thing about Coulter, the point was that Foner had made a critique that shot down a controversial, anti-communist book written by Radosh. Coulter later went on a ridiculous diatribe about it. I included the Coulter reference because I thought some of you might have remebered when she talked about it and it would refresh your memory. It has nothing to do with Coulter and I regret bringing her name up because nobody remembered her comments anyway. Sorry. His critique on Radosh's book is significant and I'm searching for the exact article right now. I can find snippets of it, but I will link it in when I find all of it because it really is some of Foner's best work. Jefflerm 03:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
My intention was not to stir the pot here, but I found it odd that the criticism section included a lot of stuff that had nothing to do with, as Tom said, "his historical works". In particular, I am talking about the critiques of David Horowitz, Daniel Pipes and Bernard Goldberg. These are completely unrelated to his historical/academic works. Also, the part about Ashcroft and Norton is unrelated to his historical works. That is why I thought we should change the section. Either add more or delete anything that isn't directly related to his academic work. Some of Foner's articles after 9/11 gained him some attention, and that is when I began to read him. However, some of these articles came under sharp criticism from right-wingers and families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks. We don't necessarily have to use the one in the London Review of Books but I thought we should include something on that since he was an important voice during that time. Just a suggestion because the current criticism page does not all pretain to his books and other academic/scholarly work. Jefflerm 04:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi, just making an observation; why is "Secession and the Soviet Union" at the bottom of the article under "Works by Eric Foner"? It seems a bit silly. Could someone please move it? Sorry I don't know how to.
N -- 78.150.213.131 ( talk) 12:13, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Foner and other historians have published articles in journalism magazines, but it does not seem appropriate to list so many here. Usually articles to be listed would be those in professional journals of the academic discipline; the ones here relate to Foner as a public intellectual, drawing from his discipline as a historian to comment on US society. But these are not his main work. Maybe they should be listed in a separate category. Parkwells ( talk) 14:31, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 21:13, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 23:01, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://columbialawreview.org/the-supreme-court-and-the-history-of-reconstruction-and-vice-versa/When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:17, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:08, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:59, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Eric Foner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://newswire.ascribe.org/cgi-bin/behold.pl?ascribeid=20110210.071303&time=02%2000%20PST&year=2011&public=0When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:35, 25 December 2017 (UTC)