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71.137.192.221 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) has disputed the article's content, contending that there was no Duchy of Warmia, only the Bishopric of Warmia. Olessi ( talk) 22:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
71.137... stated, that there was a Prince-Bishopric of Warmia, but no Duchy of Warmia. There were no Dukes of Warmia, the rulers of Warmia were the Prince-Bishops. In its earliest years Ermland/Warmia was one of four bishoprics of Prussia), later an exempt Prince-Bishoric. 71.137. 2 August 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.192.221 ( talk) 08:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
You're right: "Duchy of Warmia" or "
episcopal duchy of Warmia" or "
bishopric duchy of Warmia" is nothing more or less than
Archbishopric of Warmia - (
Polish:
Warmińskie biskupstwo or
Archidiecezja warmińska). --
Termer (
talk) 03:14, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The article should be redirected to
Archbishopric of Warmia.
I'm just about to post about the subject in general to
Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board. There is it seems a very good source that should sort thing out hopefully.--
Termer (
talk) 03:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
PS. Księstwo Warmińskie on Polish WP doesn't have any sources either. Are you sure this is not just some kind of misinterpretation since
Herbarz polski Kaspra Niesieckiego, s. j By Kasper Niesiecki Published by Waif, 1846 seems to be very clear about the administrative divisions of the
Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth?--
Termer (
talk) 03:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
that's all fair enough that it has been also called a "Duchy". That's exactly what the sources in English do that I listed above. The bottom line of this is that what was it called officially as an administrative unit in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and if it was a different subdivision from the bishopric that existing from date x to y?. The book I mentioned that covers all subdivisions of the Polish-lithuanian state is pretty clear about it- it was a bishopric.-- Termer ( talk) 04:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
So, most of the content from Archbishopric of Warmia should go into Duchy of Warmia and the latter itself should be renamed into Episcopal Duchy of Warmia (Polish: Biskupie Księstwo Warmińskie) . The "Bishopric of Warmia" that was no duchy after 1772 should have it's own article (1772-1945) Bishopric of Ermland and from 1945 til current be part of Archbishopric of Warmia. Does that make sense?-- Termer ( talk) 16:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
More sources: the duchy-bishopric of Varmia or Ermland-- Termer ( talk) 17:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The continuity can be easily maintained with Former subdivision infoboxes. Since it seems general articles like
Warmia that have been part of many countries throughout history and have carried different names depending on POV, are never going to satisfy either sides. The solution would be to follow strictly formers subdivisions and call them with German and Polish names respectively. Since this is about Polish subdivision, it should be called
Episcopal Duchy of Warmia (1466-1772), for the period of 1772-1945 there should be a separate article called
Bishopric of Ermland. Since 1945
Bishopric of Warmia or
Archbishopric of Warmia again.
I Still need to figure out what to call the Bishopric-Duchy from 1243-1466. Since it was part of
Monastic state of the Teutonic Knights and
Prussian Confederation. it should be Ermland something. I'll check with Olessi, he should know.
In the end I'd get all useful facts from
Warmia and/or
Ermland into approperiate articles and make the names itself into disamb pages. That should solve also the problem, who is right, either calling it Warmia or Ermland.--
Termer (
talk) 18:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
PS. I'd keep the "merge" tags up there not to suggest the articles should be merged together but just to keep the discussion open in case anybody has more ideas. In case there are no objections within few days to a week or so, I'd just just clean it up and also put an end to Warmia/Ermland controversy at the same time.-- Termer ( talk) 18:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Comment on usually a bishopric has little influence on secular government - but the Duchy was an exception. Actually, having "prince-bishoprics" during the era in Baltic area was pretty common. For example in Old Livonia, Archbishopric of Riga, Bishopric of Courland, Bishopric of Dorpat, Bishopric of Ösel-Wiek were all "prince-bishoprics" or "Episcopal Duchy", meaning the Bishops ruled the church and the land ( theocracy). Bishopric of Reval (founded by Danish Valdemar II in 13 cen not like the aricle currenl says) again was just a Bishopric that only ruled the church and was not a Duke or a Prince ruling the lands.-- Termer ( talk) 18:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The most common name for period of 1243 - 1466 seems to be Bishopric of Ermeland (114 returns in google books) that exclusively speaks of the Bishopric passed into the possession of Poland, came to Poland only in 1466 etc. At the time when " Bishopric of Ermland" (59 returns) has already (ie Warmia) provided in brackets. So my suggestion is, in order to end the Polish/German Warmia/Ermeland controversy on WP, make the Warmia/ Ermeland article into a disamb page with following specifications:
Warmia/Ermeland may refer to:
-- Termer ( talk) 22:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The following is summarized from Georg Hermanowski's Ostpreußen: Wegweiser durch ein unvergessenes Land, Erich Weise's (editor) Handburch der historischen Stätten: Ost- und Westpreussen, and the Catholic Encyclopedia. Hermanowski summarizes it as an autonomous prince-bishopric from 1243-1772. At Anagni, Prussia was divided into four dioceses, and 1/3 of the Warmian diocese was promised to the direct control of the diocese bishop. The territory of the diocese was significantly larger than the Old Prussian region of Warmia. Since the seat of the bishops ultimately became Heilsberg, the bishopric also became known as the Bishopric of Heilsberg. The bishops gradually consolidated their power and successfully resisted the attempts of the Teutonic Knights to subjugate them, as had been done to the bishops of Pomesania, Culm, and Samland. Weise writes that the bishops were still ultimately subordinate to the grand masters, and that one cannot speak of Warmian 'independence' before 1464. He also writes that the actual designation of prince-bishop (Fürstbischof) was not used until 1800.
In 1464 the Polish king recognized the independence of the bishopric. Two years later this was reduced to confirmation of all rights that the bishops had previously received from the Teutonic grand masters. The king and the Warmian chapter disputed who had the power to choose the bishop, leading to the War of the Priests, which ended in the king's favor. Bishop Johannes Dantiscus resisted the Reformation and prevented the prince-bishopric's secularization, although much of its territory was lost to Protestantism. Succeeding bishops and their advisors steadfastly defended the bishopric's autonomy. From 1508-1569 the bishops chaired the Prussian diet.
Frederick II promised to respect the status quo upon the Prussian annexation of Warmia in 1772, but gradually schools were closed and episcopal land confiscated. ( [1]) Joseph von Hohenzollern-Hechingen (1808-1836) was the last to have the title of Prince-Bishop of Warmia, as his successors were simply bishops. A bull of 1820 expanded the diocese to include most of East Prussia and not simply the region of Warmia/Ermland. In 1945 the diocese was transferred from German to Polish control, although the office of Bishop of Warmia was left vacant until 1972. In 1992 it was raised to an archdiocese.
It's been a while since I've read Karin Friedrich's The Other Prussia, but on maps she differentiates between Warmia and Royal Prussia (Malbork, Chełmno, Pomeranian Voivodeships). I don't remember off-hand how she addresses the effect of the Union of Lublin on Warmia.
Archbishopric of Warmia and Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Warmia both exist right now; the latter is the standard titling for modern (arch)dioceses. The medieval bishopric did attempt to become an archbishopric during the rule of Lucas von Watzenrode, but this was successfully opposed by the Archbishopric of Riga. My recommendation would be to move Archbishopric of Warmia to Prince-Bishopric of Warmia covering 1243 to ca. 1772 (Teutonic and Polish sovereignty and worldly possessions). I'm not sure of the need to differentiate between 1243-1466 and 1466-1772. Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Warmia would then cover the solely spiritual bishopric from ca. 1772 to the modern day. I'm not sure of the exact year to start the latter article. Gradual suppression of the Roman Catholic Church began after the First Partition of Poland in 1772. I do not know when the temporal powers of the bishops were ended; I conjecture that the 1820 (or 1821?) bull "De salute animarum" ended that status, and Joseph von Hohenzollern-Hechingen was allowed to keep the title of Prince-Bishop until his death. The diocese's borders were expanded by the bull. I do not know how the diocese's borders were affected by WWII. In 1992 the diocese was raised to an archdiocese, with some of its territory going to the new dioceses of Elbląg and Ełk.
The Warmia article would focus on the wedge-shaped geographic region of Warmia/Ermland - first the small Old Prussian region, then its expansion by the medieval bishops. Olessi ( talk) 00:55, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the titling of prince-bishoprics, there does not seem to be a consistent method at Category:Prince-Bishoprics. Thus, I would also be fine with Bishopric of Warmia or Bishopric of Ermland for the pre-1772 era. Olessi ( talk) 00:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
etc.--
Termer (
talk) 02:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
PS.
Prince-Bishopric of Ermland can't be sourced it seems
[2]? Unlike
Prince-Bishopric of Warmia or more precisely
Prince-Bishopric of Warmia (Ermland) that has
2 returns on google books.--
Termer (
talk) 03:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
PPS. however' there would be no problem for sourcing the
Bishopric of Ermeland that would cover the Teutonic period. It has 195 returns on google books.--
Termer (
talk) 03:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't denying that Polish sovereignty passed over Warmia in 1466, only questioning its level of autonomy compared to other parts of western Prussia. When conducting Google Books searches, I usually restrict the results to 100 hits per page (shows a more accurate hit count) and publications since 1950 (to avoid more archaic usage and avoid duplicate publications).
For instance:
Interestingly, in his The Teutonic Knights: A Military History, William Urban differentiates between the Old Prussian region as Warmia and the German-led bishopric as Ermland. Olessi ( talk) 03:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
RE: Malbork Voivodeship: if we were to trust our maps, Duchy of Warmia was not part of it: compare Image:KsięstwoWarmińskieIRP.png to Image:MalborskieIRP.png. Pl wiki notes that voivodes of Malbork had some control over armed forces in the Duchy, but the bishops had their own military, too, and were the secular lords of the Duchy. It is a bit confusing, but I do recall (from some old readings) that the bishops of Warmia had a very large autonomy and rivaled the neighboring voivodes. According to some old Polish books on Google Print ( [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]), it was ranked as a separate entity (they don't address the miltiary competences). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:24, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
So far I haven't seen any strong need to differentiate between pre- and post-1466. While subordinate to the Teutonic Knights, the bishops administered a substantial diocese and had temporal powers. In 1464 they were recognized as independent. In 1466 they were subordinated to the Polish crown, but had the same privileges confirmed as they had during the Teutonic period. The bishops sought greater independence from the grand masters, and they sought greater independence from the Polish kings. If anything, equally important changes occurred during the 1520s (loss of territory due to the Reformation) and possibly in 1569 (Union of Lublin) as happened in 1466. The books I mentioned before do not indicate a separate entity after 1466. Barring further input, the only major issues to differentiate that I see are the medieval prince-bishopric (pre-1772) and the modern (arch)diocese (post-1772).
Also, I wasn't questioning Urban's differentiation between Warmia/Ermland, merely providing another source for naming variations. The numerous options (bishopric, duchy, episcopal, etc.) are just different descriptions used by different authors for the same entity. Olessi ( talk) 15:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Most of content from Archbishopric of Warmia should be merged here; the modern entity is actually the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Warmia (our naming conventions support Roman Catholic Archdiocese, not Archbishopric). Archbishopric of Warmia should be either a redirect, or a disambig.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
-Or, we could keep both articles and keep this as Main article for the Polish period. The only question remains what exactly should the Root article be called? The current Archbishopric of Warmia is obviously simply factually incorrect. If it was up to me, I'd call the Root article Bishopric of Ermland that was the original name of the Bishopric founded in the 13 cen, and then it would have a section in it Bishopric of Ermland#Episcopal Duchy of Warmia that would have
note attached to it that directs to this one? How about that?-- Termer ( talk) 17:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The entity founded in 1243 is most commonly known in English simply as the "Bishopric of Warmia" or the "Bishopric of Erm(e)land". "Episcopal Duchy of Warmia" is a rarely used designation for it. I don't think there is a pressing need to add qualifiers to the title - "Bishopric of Foo" can be differentiated from "Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Foo" with a hatnote (compare Archbishopric of Mainz and Roman Catholic Diocese of Mainz). I'm not sure why the "Administrative division of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth" connection is being emphasized to necessitate a separate article. IMO, the Polish/P-L era would be fine as a section of the larger article. Archbishopric of Warmia only refers to the modern diocese and should simply be a redirect to RCAoW.
The bishopric was not an administrative subdivision of East Prussia after 1772. Its temporal territory was integrated into the Kriegs- und Domänenkammer Königsberg and then into Kreise (Max Töppen's Historisch-comparative Geographie von Preussen). The diocese then consisted of ten deaneries, which was expanded in 1821. Olessi ( talk) 20:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
So you agreeing with Piotrus' Merge 2
[11] proposal that Most of content from
Archbishopric of Warmia should be merged here? If yes then we should make it happen afterwards killing
Archbishopric of Warmia by redirecting the title to
Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Warmia. Please confirm--
Termer (
talk) 21:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
PS. You prefer "Bishopric of Foo"??--
Termer (
talk) 21:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
That's basically the original proposal in the beginning of this talk page. Since Piotrus' current suggestion is another way around, moving content over here instead of redirecting this one to Archbishopric of Warmia like suggested in the beginning, it remains to be seen if everybody is on the same page with this yet. The difference between the 2 ways that you have advocated and that was the idea in the beginning. Versus Piotrus who has seen it the other way around has been also a reason why the "Administrative division of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth" connection is being emphasized to necessitate a separate article. It just felt that it would be easier to keep the German period in the first article and the Polish in this one instead of getting an agreement on either this one or another one should be redirected. But in case I'm wrong and Piotrus can agree with having this article redirected to current Archbishopric of Warmia, and then have it renamed by using a title that everybody can agree on... we might get out of this loop and still maintain one article about the subject.-- Termer ( talk) 22:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Nice! The new title could be Prince-Bishopric of Warmia (Ermland) Polish: Biskupie Księstwo Warmińskie German: Fürstbistum Ermland that would include both names an can be sourced to 2 returns on google books?-- Termer ( talk) 00:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Short titles are nice as long as we can get everybody agree on either it should be a Bishopric or a Ducy of Warmia or Ermland etc.:-)-- Termer ( talk) 02:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 16:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
WP:NCGN suggests looking at six classes of source:
There are also extensive comments on false positives. We want usage in English, not German or Polish. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
"Warmia" 925 at google books 4,580 @ google scholar
"Bishopric of Warmia" has 196 returns at google books and 7 @ google scholar
"Duchy of Warmia" 19 at google books 1 @ google scholar
"Ermland" 869 at google books 660 google scholar
"Ermeland" 732 at google books 128 google scholar
"Bishopric of Ermland" 117 at google books 14 @ google scholar
"Bishopric of Ermeland" 192 at google books and 6 @ google scholar
After first look at this, it seems that for the land itself name Warmia (according to google scholar at least) is most often used and for the Bishopic the name Ermland or Ermeleand has the majority? and it makes sense too in a way since it was a German Bishopic even though part of Poland once. So does it mean that the article should be called
Bishopric of Ermeland as more common name compared to the version "Bishopric of Ermeland" that together have 117+192=309 returns vs.
Bishopric of Warmia that alone has 196 returns at google books + 7 @ google scholar?--
Termer (
talk) 18:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 17:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
"How many English books will you find using Warschau or Krakau?" Actually the name Cracow comes from Germanised Krakau and is found in more books then Krakow. So my point stands. -- Molobo ( talk) 16:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The Old Prussian, who that part of Prussia was named for was Warmo. However he soon died and the name of the land was named for his widow Erma. Since Prussia was divided into four bishoprics in 1243 by Papal Legate William of Modena, the Old Prussian name was used by the Catholic church, therefore the Latin name is Warmia. The territorial name is Ermland, earlier outdated version also Ermeland. The four bishoprics of Prussia, incl. Warmia stood under the archbishop of Riga. When the civil wars in Prussia for and against the rule by the Teutonic Order erupted ( Thirteen Years War and in the aftermath the bishopric of Warmia/Ermland, under ( Lucas Watzenrode received exempt status in 1512 and was directly put under the pope. The bishops became Reichsfuersten, Imperial Prince-Bishops in 1356 under emperor Charles IV and remained so until (end of Holy Roman Empire 1806) or in the 20th century, Exempt Status remain till 20th c.
When the bishopric of Ermland along with all people from East Prussia etc were ethnically cleansed-expelled- chased out by the Communists, the Ermland bishop was expelled by Polish bishop August Hlond. The popes kept the Bishopseat vacant and gave the Ermland Bishop the rank as Special Bishop of the refugees/expellees.
After 1972 a new Polish bishopric/diocese was installed, which it never has been before and in 1992 it was made a new archbishopric or archdiocese.
The Prussian bishopric of Warmia or Ermland existed from 1243 - 1945, only then a break came.
An Observer 27 September 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.197.97 ( talk) 05:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
All good other than you're missing the fact that after 1772 it was no longer a state but just a bishopric.-- Termer ( talk) 18:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
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talk page for discussing improvements to the
Episcopal Duchy of Warmia redirect. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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71.137.192.221 ( talk · contribs · WHOIS) has disputed the article's content, contending that there was no Duchy of Warmia, only the Bishopric of Warmia. Olessi ( talk) 22:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
71.137... stated, that there was a Prince-Bishopric of Warmia, but no Duchy of Warmia. There were no Dukes of Warmia, the rulers of Warmia were the Prince-Bishops. In its earliest years Ermland/Warmia was one of four bishoprics of Prussia), later an exempt Prince-Bishoric. 71.137. 2 August 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.192.221 ( talk) 08:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
You're right: "Duchy of Warmia" or "
episcopal duchy of Warmia" or "
bishopric duchy of Warmia" is nothing more or less than
Archbishopric of Warmia - (
Polish:
Warmińskie biskupstwo or
Archidiecezja warmińska). --
Termer (
talk) 03:14, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The article should be redirected to
Archbishopric of Warmia.
I'm just about to post about the subject in general to
Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board. There is it seems a very good source that should sort thing out hopefully.--
Termer (
talk) 03:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
PS. Księstwo Warmińskie on Polish WP doesn't have any sources either. Are you sure this is not just some kind of misinterpretation since
Herbarz polski Kaspra Niesieckiego, s. j By Kasper Niesiecki Published by Waif, 1846 seems to be very clear about the administrative divisions of the
Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth?--
Termer (
talk) 03:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
that's all fair enough that it has been also called a "Duchy". That's exactly what the sources in English do that I listed above. The bottom line of this is that what was it called officially as an administrative unit in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and if it was a different subdivision from the bishopric that existing from date x to y?. The book I mentioned that covers all subdivisions of the Polish-lithuanian state is pretty clear about it- it was a bishopric.-- Termer ( talk) 04:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
So, most of the content from Archbishopric of Warmia should go into Duchy of Warmia and the latter itself should be renamed into Episcopal Duchy of Warmia (Polish: Biskupie Księstwo Warmińskie) . The "Bishopric of Warmia" that was no duchy after 1772 should have it's own article (1772-1945) Bishopric of Ermland and from 1945 til current be part of Archbishopric of Warmia. Does that make sense?-- Termer ( talk) 16:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
More sources: the duchy-bishopric of Varmia or Ermland-- Termer ( talk) 17:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The continuity can be easily maintained with Former subdivision infoboxes. Since it seems general articles like
Warmia that have been part of many countries throughout history and have carried different names depending on POV, are never going to satisfy either sides. The solution would be to follow strictly formers subdivisions and call them with German and Polish names respectively. Since this is about Polish subdivision, it should be called
Episcopal Duchy of Warmia (1466-1772), for the period of 1772-1945 there should be a separate article called
Bishopric of Ermland. Since 1945
Bishopric of Warmia or
Archbishopric of Warmia again.
I Still need to figure out what to call the Bishopric-Duchy from 1243-1466. Since it was part of
Monastic state of the Teutonic Knights and
Prussian Confederation. it should be Ermland something. I'll check with Olessi, he should know.
In the end I'd get all useful facts from
Warmia and/or
Ermland into approperiate articles and make the names itself into disamb pages. That should solve also the problem, who is right, either calling it Warmia or Ermland.--
Termer (
talk) 18:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
PS. I'd keep the "merge" tags up there not to suggest the articles should be merged together but just to keep the discussion open in case anybody has more ideas. In case there are no objections within few days to a week or so, I'd just just clean it up and also put an end to Warmia/Ermland controversy at the same time.-- Termer ( talk) 18:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Comment on usually a bishopric has little influence on secular government - but the Duchy was an exception. Actually, having "prince-bishoprics" during the era in Baltic area was pretty common. For example in Old Livonia, Archbishopric of Riga, Bishopric of Courland, Bishopric of Dorpat, Bishopric of Ösel-Wiek were all "prince-bishoprics" or "Episcopal Duchy", meaning the Bishops ruled the church and the land ( theocracy). Bishopric of Reval (founded by Danish Valdemar II in 13 cen not like the aricle currenl says) again was just a Bishopric that only ruled the church and was not a Duke or a Prince ruling the lands.-- Termer ( talk) 18:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The most common name for period of 1243 - 1466 seems to be Bishopric of Ermeland (114 returns in google books) that exclusively speaks of the Bishopric passed into the possession of Poland, came to Poland only in 1466 etc. At the time when " Bishopric of Ermland" (59 returns) has already (ie Warmia) provided in brackets. So my suggestion is, in order to end the Polish/German Warmia/Ermeland controversy on WP, make the Warmia/ Ermeland article into a disamb page with following specifications:
Warmia/Ermeland may refer to:
-- Termer ( talk) 22:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The following is summarized from Georg Hermanowski's Ostpreußen: Wegweiser durch ein unvergessenes Land, Erich Weise's (editor) Handburch der historischen Stätten: Ost- und Westpreussen, and the Catholic Encyclopedia. Hermanowski summarizes it as an autonomous prince-bishopric from 1243-1772. At Anagni, Prussia was divided into four dioceses, and 1/3 of the Warmian diocese was promised to the direct control of the diocese bishop. The territory of the diocese was significantly larger than the Old Prussian region of Warmia. Since the seat of the bishops ultimately became Heilsberg, the bishopric also became known as the Bishopric of Heilsberg. The bishops gradually consolidated their power and successfully resisted the attempts of the Teutonic Knights to subjugate them, as had been done to the bishops of Pomesania, Culm, and Samland. Weise writes that the bishops were still ultimately subordinate to the grand masters, and that one cannot speak of Warmian 'independence' before 1464. He also writes that the actual designation of prince-bishop (Fürstbischof) was not used until 1800.
In 1464 the Polish king recognized the independence of the bishopric. Two years later this was reduced to confirmation of all rights that the bishops had previously received from the Teutonic grand masters. The king and the Warmian chapter disputed who had the power to choose the bishop, leading to the War of the Priests, which ended in the king's favor. Bishop Johannes Dantiscus resisted the Reformation and prevented the prince-bishopric's secularization, although much of its territory was lost to Protestantism. Succeeding bishops and their advisors steadfastly defended the bishopric's autonomy. From 1508-1569 the bishops chaired the Prussian diet.
Frederick II promised to respect the status quo upon the Prussian annexation of Warmia in 1772, but gradually schools were closed and episcopal land confiscated. ( [1]) Joseph von Hohenzollern-Hechingen (1808-1836) was the last to have the title of Prince-Bishop of Warmia, as his successors were simply bishops. A bull of 1820 expanded the diocese to include most of East Prussia and not simply the region of Warmia/Ermland. In 1945 the diocese was transferred from German to Polish control, although the office of Bishop of Warmia was left vacant until 1972. In 1992 it was raised to an archdiocese.
It's been a while since I've read Karin Friedrich's The Other Prussia, but on maps she differentiates between Warmia and Royal Prussia (Malbork, Chełmno, Pomeranian Voivodeships). I don't remember off-hand how she addresses the effect of the Union of Lublin on Warmia.
Archbishopric of Warmia and Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Warmia both exist right now; the latter is the standard titling for modern (arch)dioceses. The medieval bishopric did attempt to become an archbishopric during the rule of Lucas von Watzenrode, but this was successfully opposed by the Archbishopric of Riga. My recommendation would be to move Archbishopric of Warmia to Prince-Bishopric of Warmia covering 1243 to ca. 1772 (Teutonic and Polish sovereignty and worldly possessions). I'm not sure of the need to differentiate between 1243-1466 and 1466-1772. Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Warmia would then cover the solely spiritual bishopric from ca. 1772 to the modern day. I'm not sure of the exact year to start the latter article. Gradual suppression of the Roman Catholic Church began after the First Partition of Poland in 1772. I do not know when the temporal powers of the bishops were ended; I conjecture that the 1820 (or 1821?) bull "De salute animarum" ended that status, and Joseph von Hohenzollern-Hechingen was allowed to keep the title of Prince-Bishop until his death. The diocese's borders were expanded by the bull. I do not know how the diocese's borders were affected by WWII. In 1992 the diocese was raised to an archdiocese, with some of its territory going to the new dioceses of Elbląg and Ełk.
The Warmia article would focus on the wedge-shaped geographic region of Warmia/Ermland - first the small Old Prussian region, then its expansion by the medieval bishops. Olessi ( talk) 00:55, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the titling of prince-bishoprics, there does not seem to be a consistent method at Category:Prince-Bishoprics. Thus, I would also be fine with Bishopric of Warmia or Bishopric of Ermland for the pre-1772 era. Olessi ( talk) 00:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
etc.--
Termer (
talk) 02:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
PS.
Prince-Bishopric of Ermland can't be sourced it seems
[2]? Unlike
Prince-Bishopric of Warmia or more precisely
Prince-Bishopric of Warmia (Ermland) that has
2 returns on google books.--
Termer (
talk) 03:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
PPS. however' there would be no problem for sourcing the
Bishopric of Ermeland that would cover the Teutonic period. It has 195 returns on google books.--
Termer (
talk) 03:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't denying that Polish sovereignty passed over Warmia in 1466, only questioning its level of autonomy compared to other parts of western Prussia. When conducting Google Books searches, I usually restrict the results to 100 hits per page (shows a more accurate hit count) and publications since 1950 (to avoid more archaic usage and avoid duplicate publications).
For instance:
Interestingly, in his The Teutonic Knights: A Military History, William Urban differentiates between the Old Prussian region as Warmia and the German-led bishopric as Ermland. Olessi ( talk) 03:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
RE: Malbork Voivodeship: if we were to trust our maps, Duchy of Warmia was not part of it: compare Image:KsięstwoWarmińskieIRP.png to Image:MalborskieIRP.png. Pl wiki notes that voivodes of Malbork had some control over armed forces in the Duchy, but the bishops had their own military, too, and were the secular lords of the Duchy. It is a bit confusing, but I do recall (from some old readings) that the bishops of Warmia had a very large autonomy and rivaled the neighboring voivodes. According to some old Polish books on Google Print ( [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]), it was ranked as a separate entity (they don't address the miltiary competences). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:24, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
So far I haven't seen any strong need to differentiate between pre- and post-1466. While subordinate to the Teutonic Knights, the bishops administered a substantial diocese and had temporal powers. In 1464 they were recognized as independent. In 1466 they were subordinated to the Polish crown, but had the same privileges confirmed as they had during the Teutonic period. The bishops sought greater independence from the grand masters, and they sought greater independence from the Polish kings. If anything, equally important changes occurred during the 1520s (loss of territory due to the Reformation) and possibly in 1569 (Union of Lublin) as happened in 1466. The books I mentioned before do not indicate a separate entity after 1466. Barring further input, the only major issues to differentiate that I see are the medieval prince-bishopric (pre-1772) and the modern (arch)diocese (post-1772).
Also, I wasn't questioning Urban's differentiation between Warmia/Ermland, merely providing another source for naming variations. The numerous options (bishopric, duchy, episcopal, etc.) are just different descriptions used by different authors for the same entity. Olessi ( talk) 15:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Most of content from Archbishopric of Warmia should be merged here; the modern entity is actually the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Warmia (our naming conventions support Roman Catholic Archdiocese, not Archbishopric). Archbishopric of Warmia should be either a redirect, or a disambig.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
-Or, we could keep both articles and keep this as Main article for the Polish period. The only question remains what exactly should the Root article be called? The current Archbishopric of Warmia is obviously simply factually incorrect. If it was up to me, I'd call the Root article Bishopric of Ermland that was the original name of the Bishopric founded in the 13 cen, and then it would have a section in it Bishopric of Ermland#Episcopal Duchy of Warmia that would have
note attached to it that directs to this one? How about that?-- Termer ( talk) 17:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The entity founded in 1243 is most commonly known in English simply as the "Bishopric of Warmia" or the "Bishopric of Erm(e)land". "Episcopal Duchy of Warmia" is a rarely used designation for it. I don't think there is a pressing need to add qualifiers to the title - "Bishopric of Foo" can be differentiated from "Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Foo" with a hatnote (compare Archbishopric of Mainz and Roman Catholic Diocese of Mainz). I'm not sure why the "Administrative division of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth" connection is being emphasized to necessitate a separate article. IMO, the Polish/P-L era would be fine as a section of the larger article. Archbishopric of Warmia only refers to the modern diocese and should simply be a redirect to RCAoW.
The bishopric was not an administrative subdivision of East Prussia after 1772. Its temporal territory was integrated into the Kriegs- und Domänenkammer Königsberg and then into Kreise (Max Töppen's Historisch-comparative Geographie von Preussen). The diocese then consisted of ten deaneries, which was expanded in 1821. Olessi ( talk) 20:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
So you agreeing with Piotrus' Merge 2
[11] proposal that Most of content from
Archbishopric of Warmia should be merged here? If yes then we should make it happen afterwards killing
Archbishopric of Warmia by redirecting the title to
Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Warmia. Please confirm--
Termer (
talk) 21:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
PS. You prefer "Bishopric of Foo"??--
Termer (
talk) 21:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
That's basically the original proposal in the beginning of this talk page. Since Piotrus' current suggestion is another way around, moving content over here instead of redirecting this one to Archbishopric of Warmia like suggested in the beginning, it remains to be seen if everybody is on the same page with this yet. The difference between the 2 ways that you have advocated and that was the idea in the beginning. Versus Piotrus who has seen it the other way around has been also a reason why the "Administrative division of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth" connection is being emphasized to necessitate a separate article. It just felt that it would be easier to keep the German period in the first article and the Polish in this one instead of getting an agreement on either this one or another one should be redirected. But in case I'm wrong and Piotrus can agree with having this article redirected to current Archbishopric of Warmia, and then have it renamed by using a title that everybody can agree on... we might get out of this loop and still maintain one article about the subject.-- Termer ( talk) 22:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Nice! The new title could be Prince-Bishopric of Warmia (Ermland) Polish: Biskupie Księstwo Warmińskie German: Fürstbistum Ermland that would include both names an can be sourced to 2 returns on google books?-- Termer ( talk) 00:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Short titles are nice as long as we can get everybody agree on either it should be a Bishopric or a Ducy of Warmia or Ermland etc.:-)-- Termer ( talk) 02:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 16:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
WP:NCGN suggests looking at six classes of source:
There are also extensive comments on false positives. We want usage in English, not German or Polish. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
"Warmia" 925 at google books 4,580 @ google scholar
"Bishopric of Warmia" has 196 returns at google books and 7 @ google scholar
"Duchy of Warmia" 19 at google books 1 @ google scholar
"Ermland" 869 at google books 660 google scholar
"Ermeland" 732 at google books 128 google scholar
"Bishopric of Ermland" 117 at google books 14 @ google scholar
"Bishopric of Ermeland" 192 at google books and 6 @ google scholar
After first look at this, it seems that for the land itself name Warmia (according to google scholar at least) is most often used and for the Bishopic the name Ermland or Ermeleand has the majority? and it makes sense too in a way since it was a German Bishopic even though part of Poland once. So does it mean that the article should be called
Bishopric of Ermeland as more common name compared to the version "Bishopric of Ermeland" that together have 117+192=309 returns vs.
Bishopric of Warmia that alone has 196 returns at google books + 7 @ google scholar?--
Termer (
talk) 18:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
-- Molobo ( talk) 17:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
"How many English books will you find using Warschau or Krakau?" Actually the name Cracow comes from Germanised Krakau and is found in more books then Krakow. So my point stands. -- Molobo ( talk) 16:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The Old Prussian, who that part of Prussia was named for was Warmo. However he soon died and the name of the land was named for his widow Erma. Since Prussia was divided into four bishoprics in 1243 by Papal Legate William of Modena, the Old Prussian name was used by the Catholic church, therefore the Latin name is Warmia. The territorial name is Ermland, earlier outdated version also Ermeland. The four bishoprics of Prussia, incl. Warmia stood under the archbishop of Riga. When the civil wars in Prussia for and against the rule by the Teutonic Order erupted ( Thirteen Years War and in the aftermath the bishopric of Warmia/Ermland, under ( Lucas Watzenrode received exempt status in 1512 and was directly put under the pope. The bishops became Reichsfuersten, Imperial Prince-Bishops in 1356 under emperor Charles IV and remained so until (end of Holy Roman Empire 1806) or in the 20th century, Exempt Status remain till 20th c.
When the bishopric of Ermland along with all people from East Prussia etc were ethnically cleansed-expelled- chased out by the Communists, the Ermland bishop was expelled by Polish bishop August Hlond. The popes kept the Bishopseat vacant and gave the Ermland Bishop the rank as Special Bishop of the refugees/expellees.
After 1972 a new Polish bishopric/diocese was installed, which it never has been before and in 1992 it was made a new archbishopric or archdiocese.
The Prussian bishopric of Warmia or Ermland existed from 1243 - 1945, only then a break came.
An Observer 27 September 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.197.97 ( talk) 05:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
All good other than you're missing the fact that after 1772 it was no longer a state but just a bishopric.-- Termer ( talk) 18:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)