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What is the problem with the addition of the genetics section? Athenean tries to remove it because of pure WP:IDONTLIKEIT. At first he tried to remove it by saying it is not reliable, then he said that the article is not about people but about region. The genetics article was refering to the area, not to people. On the European continent it has the highest concentration in north-west Greece, Albania and Kosovo [1]. It does not refer to people, but regions. -- Sarandioti ( talk) 10:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
The website is reliable, and not pov at any part.I really dont see WHY we shouldnt add the data. Our goal should be the correct expansion of the articles, without any reservations. I mean that, just because some may not like it, others may identify to obsolete racial theories, does not mean we should not expand the article. Conclusions are for readers, not for us. We should just present the data and let anyone who reads it make his own decisions. I really don't see anything wrong in the sentence On the European continent it has the highest concentration in north-west Greece, Albania and Kosovo, The extension of the sentence is: then fading around the Balkans, the rest of Greece and Western Turkey. According to the guidelines (that we should follow), there is no problem in the sentence, no pov-pushin, no synth etc. So again guys WHY shouldnt we add it? Just because 1 or 2 supporters of obsolete theories will be offended, or link to some ethnic heritage etc? That's not our problem to solve. -- Sarandioti ( talk) 12:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
And we also have a gen. map in wikipedia for the E1b1b [2] We could use some of the sources of E1b1b article if there's a reliability issue for you, although eupedia is totally reliable. -- Sarandioti ( talk) 12:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
WHy is it irrelevant?? None of you have told me WHY it is irrelevant. And this sudden influx of greek editors(invited by another greek editor) in an issue that is "irrelevant", shows that to them it is not irrelevant at all. Btw I wonder if this is meatpuppetry.-- Sarandioti ( talk) 14:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Do you think he came by himself? He was invited in the talkpage -- Sarandioti ( talk) 14:50, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
What do you guys think adding a section about the role of Epirus and Epirotes in Albanian nationalism. background# This is just a random link that I found on this issue. And maybe tell about the period during communism when Albanian historians tried to make a link between Epirotes and Illyrians. I think it would diversify information on this page, and make it more rich. What do you think? AnnaFabiano ( talk) 14:50, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I think that could be in
Albanian nationalism.--
Michael X the White (
talk)
14:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
This article is about a geographical region. Filling it with every national movement's theoretical claim is out of topic. I believe that theories and movements have their own articles, same with regions. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Theories that can't have a historical-scientific basis should be avoided. Imagine writing down in Shkubi and Durres articles an extremist pro-Greek approach section theory, just because it is mentioned in a number of books or it was mentioned in the past as areas of hellenism. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
explain yourself... 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 09:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
explain what you dont like here 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 09:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
dear i.p. user, in order to make your arguments stronger provide please a relevant source about Vagenetia (seems ok but still needs one). As per Chameria the term should be mentioned the time that was used (19th-20th cent.). It's simple, there was no reference to tsamouria in medieval times. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
i wrote 'much later, chameria', i removed it anyway but vagenetia is wellknown too many sources mention it for me to pick 1 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 10:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
You added this indescribably thing.Forget IIllyri it doesnt exist now and the double names are out
if you cant explain what you dont exactly like tough luck i clearly answered 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 11:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
i added a note about the vlachs i think its covered well. but again kekaumenos believes in that theory and its mentioned since its the earliest source documenting vlachs in macedonia, epirus and thessaly 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 11:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
winnifrith mentions how the region of epirus obtained its name and you quote him for the 'whole greek mainland'... 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 13:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC) and vagenetia was roughly thesprotia not the whole of epirus vetus (old epirus) you dont even understand what your sources say 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 13:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
this information is important here..when did the people who speak vlach in pindus got there? its important information plus you havent added anything 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 14:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
great the usual people who have no idea of the topic locked the article in the contentless version see when it says 'references removed' but the version is still bigger it might have useful content which you apparently cant evaluate otherwise you wouldnt have locked it so here use the talk page so i can talk to some other user than megistias who apparently cant understand jack 87.202.3.215 ( talk) 06:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
so now we learn that the whole of epirus vetus became known as vagenetia but we dont know when the albanians or vlachs started moving southwards great 87.202.3.215 ( talk) 07:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
the section needs some addition, I'll check soon. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
its a small sentence about when the vlachs...the third main group in epirus after greeks and albanains...appear 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 19:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
its important to mention when the MAJOR GROUPS IN EPIRUS FIRST APPEAR IN THE REGION 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 20:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC) and no refs were removed so show what was or stop rving 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 20:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
the only one im ignoring is you since you dont seem able to discuss 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 20:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC) mention here what your exact CONCRETE PROBLEMS with the additions are 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 20:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
youre talking bullshit as usual where did i do this for example? 'you used Illyria to described modern borders' huh?? and vagenetia was inaccurate the way you wrote it and the previous edits have nothing to do with this so mention whats your problem with this one 87.202.18.98 ( talk) 22:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC) 'your corellations of medieval populations with ancient tribes' can you read?? thats kekaumenos' opinion which i added because its the first source that mentions the vlachs in epirus not becasue its the final word...did you see my note at all?? 87.202.18.98 ( talk) 22:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
why did megistias revert the article again and why has it been protected has his edits being checked by someone and believed to be better?? 85.73.230.150 ( talk) 10:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
The Tribes of Epirus in antiquity Map is clearly original research. Maps like this should not be created with original research from cherry picked sources. The listing as Macedonians as Greek is clearly POV and instead various academic linguistic sources and sources from anthropology and history should be used. And since there is not likely to be a consensus from the various scholars, a map like this which is put out as somehow fact is very misleading. Azalea pomp ( talk) 21:23, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
There are 8 references for this map cited, all of them from well known scholars like Hammond. I'm sorry but in classical antiquity Macedonians were clearly part of the Greek word. I wonder if there exists any scholar that claims that Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom) was not part of the ancient Greek world. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The sources also claim that they spoke a Greek dialect on 4th c. B.C.. Where is that cherry picking stuff exactly? Can you point a specific article in wiki or else Alexikoua ( talk) 22:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
It is a typical map that shows the concentration of the the 3 major dialect groups in both sides of the Aegean. Off course it does not include specific dialects of ancient Greek, like Achaean Doric Greek, Northwestern Greek, Arcadocypriot. Alexikoua ( talk) 07:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
As far I see the problem concerns the 'border' regions. Byllis (town) as well as Bylliones (the tribe which in the map are considered Ilyrians) depending on the source are classified whether Greeks or Ilyrians or both (like here [ [3]] o. 5). I suggest a less detailed version 'avoiding', specific towns/tribes like the above. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:25, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
From what I notice from this page, is that often there are contradictions from sources. The page is written with one source yet another source such as the map will contradict what is written. What there needs to be done is when a source is used, it needs to be quoted directly. Don't just claim a source for some blanket statement. As well, if there are other sources which contradict what another source states, then perhaps more sources are needed. Also, please no POV from either Greek, Albanian, Turkish, or whatever point of view one is trying to push. There are obvious problems with many of these maps which many of them are original resource. It is against policy to create a map based on your own research. I have demonstrated that the one Epirus map is claiming to use sources in its creation, but the sources to not back up what the map is trying to demonstrate. So what should all of us do to improve this article. As well, why is there no where on the article a discussion of the languages and dialects spoken in the Epirus region today? A mention of Epirote Northern Greek, Northern Tosk Albanian, Lab Tosk Albanian, and Cham Tosk Albanian, and I assume others should be included. Azalea pomp ( talk) 20:42, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I had some problems with the snap preview, but found another version of Tandy's map [ [6]]. You are right. Actually some dots (4-5) in wiki map are placed in Thessalia. I'll have to do some 'dot play' the following hours. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
OK, this section will be a work in progress. I will be looking at the sources which are cited for the creation of the Wikipedia map and what the Wikipedia map has. I will divide this section into errors and what is fine. As well as some comments.
First, here are some issues. The map needs to be dated with a date on map either an exact date or a circa date. Second, we need to distinguish "tribes" from cities clearly. Third, we need to precisely define ethnic groups this means Greek versus Macedonian. Do not conflate them. Hellenization does not mean Greek by ethnicity.
Here are some issues/errors so far: 1. Bryges listed as Thracians (Wilkes and SoO lists them as Phrygian). Thracian does not mean Phrgyian. 2. Byllis the city is said to be founded by Illyrians in Wilkes. 3. Why are regions outside Epirus shown? Shouldn't the map focus on Epirus? 4. Map is NOT dated. 5. Where does it state the Almopians are Thracians in any of the sources? Azalea pomp ( talk) 20:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Obviously Epirus has two main ethnic groups, Greeks and Albanians. As the Ottoman era map clearly demonstrates on this page. From the map, one can not make the claim that Epirus only has one principle or significant population. As this map does not even show Armenians, Slavs, or Turks in Epirus, they are clearly in the other category. Stop the POV pushing please. Azalea pomp ( talk) 19:31, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Actually, in the 'Boundaries and definitions' section it mentions that 'The historical region of Epirus is generally regarded as extending from the northern end of the Llogara mountains in present-day Albania (historically the Ceraunian mountains)', this means just above the coastal town of 'Himara' (Khimarra in this map). If you check the map carefully you will see that the light yellow regions begin just above this point, which geographically isn't Epirus.
If we exclude this northern part, it's easy to see that we have hardly any only Albanian light yeallow region. There might be a ca. 1:4 Albanians vs Greeks (&Vlachs) ratio. Off course there lived Albanians but in smaller numbers compared to Greek, according to the map. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
This is NOT the same as the Tandy map as we have already discussed. Do not take the original research tag off until it is fixed. Azalea pomp ( talk) 19:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
So here are the Updates listed now. We have Bryges marked as Phrygian; the Almopians, Stobi, Astibus, Agrianes, Doberes, Stropaiones, Laeeans as Paeonian; Serdi as Celtic; and the Bisaltal as Thracian.
Here is what is needed to be clarified and fixed. We need a date, better yet perhaps we should decide what would be a good date for a map like this. If the Serdi came later, then we can put a date after the Serdi name on the map. We need to clarify as well that this is a map of tribes, not languages. The languages are too little attested to make any detailed linguistic map. We don't know enough of Paeonian (if anything at all) to really make any meaningful statement. We need to include Macedonian tribes and they need to be distinguished in color from the Greek tribes and settlements. Perhaps the map's date should be set before Hellenization. Or we could add notes on when Hellenization took place for some of the tribes.
Azalea pomp ( talk) 20:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
I see that there is a disagreement among specific scholars, but according to wiki policy it would be better to base our conclusions on secondary sources (not tertiary). Moreover, the map in page 241 (Mallory, Adams), mistakenly excludes Epirus too from the areas that Northwestern Greek was spoken, without any explanation. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
"Why does language change? Why can we speak to and understand our parents but have trouble reading Shakespeare? Why is Chaucer's English of the fourteenth century so different from Modern English of the late twentieth century that the two are essentially different languages? Why are Americans and English 'one people divided by a common language'? And how can the language of Chaucer and Modern English - or Modern British and American English - still be called the same language? The present book provides answers to questions like these in a straightforward way, aimed at the non-specialist, with ample illustrations from both familiar and more exotic languages." Megistias ( talk) 23:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
In this [ [13]], the map in p. 363, concerns obviously the period before the Dorian invasion (before the 'western migration') since it shows Arcadocypriot dialect as spoken in all of Peloponnese. On the other hand there is no Doric dialect at all in the neighborhood. However it's focused (like the previous one) on the 'migration to Anatolia' (ca. 8th c. BC) and how it affected the 3 major dialect groups, which is really an interesting historical event among linguists.
I've found several books that describe what was spoken in Epirus in classical antiquity, some of them are: [ The Cambridge ancient history] (p. 284-285), [ The Illyrians] p. 12 "a widespread view that they spoke a form of Greek...", [ [14]] p. 25, [ History of the language sciences: an international handbook] p. 439.. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Something irrelevant but unique in universal bibliography: I wonder how can someone claim that there was an Albanian speaking region in 1,000 B.C. [ [15]](p. 43), however in the relevant section it states that the same language was first attested in 1500 AD... Alexikoua ( talk) 23:56, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Should the famous Pindus river not be the Pindus mountains? If there exists a Pindus rivier, it is not as famous as the mountains, which are an impressive border indeed. Fransvannes 14:58 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62
Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78
Quote: "When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98
Quote: "As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994
Quote: "Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks." Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin Publ., 1996
EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)
North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.
Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.
Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia. Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.
Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.
A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.
Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.
The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.
His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.
An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.
It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.
Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.
Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.
Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times. N.G.L.Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547
The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press, 1990.
Quote: The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia.... Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997
Quote: Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.
David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995
Quote: Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994
the Satyres by Juvenal
Quote: The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles.. Page 225
"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew
Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; Quote: Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking Page 284
"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman
Quote: however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization. Quote: In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland. Page 443
Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423
A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith
Quote: Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.
That they [Dorians] were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients
History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations By Sylvain Auroux, page 439
Quote: the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia; "In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74
Quote: Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles Quote: He [Pyrrhus] has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.
Quote: he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. Quote: this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; Quote: But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside. Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus
Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;
Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking. "The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.
Quote: The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war. A Manual of Greek Antiquities Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8
It seems that the following recently created sentence makes a detailed description on what happened in only two years, while the entire paragraph which belongs (4 sentences in total) makes just a brief mention of one century long history (1348-1440). So, I've changed this:
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What is the problem with the addition of the genetics section? Athenean tries to remove it because of pure WP:IDONTLIKEIT. At first he tried to remove it by saying it is not reliable, then he said that the article is not about people but about region. The genetics article was refering to the area, not to people. On the European continent it has the highest concentration in north-west Greece, Albania and Kosovo [1]. It does not refer to people, but regions. -- Sarandioti ( talk) 10:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
The website is reliable, and not pov at any part.I really dont see WHY we shouldnt add the data. Our goal should be the correct expansion of the articles, without any reservations. I mean that, just because some may not like it, others may identify to obsolete racial theories, does not mean we should not expand the article. Conclusions are for readers, not for us. We should just present the data and let anyone who reads it make his own decisions. I really don't see anything wrong in the sentence On the European continent it has the highest concentration in north-west Greece, Albania and Kosovo, The extension of the sentence is: then fading around the Balkans, the rest of Greece and Western Turkey. According to the guidelines (that we should follow), there is no problem in the sentence, no pov-pushin, no synth etc. So again guys WHY shouldnt we add it? Just because 1 or 2 supporters of obsolete theories will be offended, or link to some ethnic heritage etc? That's not our problem to solve. -- Sarandioti ( talk) 12:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
And we also have a gen. map in wikipedia for the E1b1b [2] We could use some of the sources of E1b1b article if there's a reliability issue for you, although eupedia is totally reliable. -- Sarandioti ( talk) 12:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
WHy is it irrelevant?? None of you have told me WHY it is irrelevant. And this sudden influx of greek editors(invited by another greek editor) in an issue that is "irrelevant", shows that to them it is not irrelevant at all. Btw I wonder if this is meatpuppetry.-- Sarandioti ( talk) 14:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Do you think he came by himself? He was invited in the talkpage -- Sarandioti ( talk) 14:50, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
What do you guys think adding a section about the role of Epirus and Epirotes in Albanian nationalism. background# This is just a random link that I found on this issue. And maybe tell about the period during communism when Albanian historians tried to make a link between Epirotes and Illyrians. I think it would diversify information on this page, and make it more rich. What do you think? AnnaFabiano ( talk) 14:50, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I think that could be in
Albanian nationalism.--
Michael X the White (
talk)
14:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
This article is about a geographical region. Filling it with every national movement's theoretical claim is out of topic. I believe that theories and movements have their own articles, same with regions. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Theories that can't have a historical-scientific basis should be avoided. Imagine writing down in Shkubi and Durres articles an extremist pro-Greek approach section theory, just because it is mentioned in a number of books or it was mentioned in the past as areas of hellenism. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
explain yourself... 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 09:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
explain what you dont like here 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 09:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
dear i.p. user, in order to make your arguments stronger provide please a relevant source about Vagenetia (seems ok but still needs one). As per Chameria the term should be mentioned the time that was used (19th-20th cent.). It's simple, there was no reference to tsamouria in medieval times. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
i wrote 'much later, chameria', i removed it anyway but vagenetia is wellknown too many sources mention it for me to pick 1 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 10:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
You added this indescribably thing.Forget IIllyri it doesnt exist now and the double names are out
if you cant explain what you dont exactly like tough luck i clearly answered 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 11:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
i added a note about the vlachs i think its covered well. but again kekaumenos believes in that theory and its mentioned since its the earliest source documenting vlachs in macedonia, epirus and thessaly 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 11:44, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
winnifrith mentions how the region of epirus obtained its name and you quote him for the 'whole greek mainland'... 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 13:34, 8 September 2009 (UTC) and vagenetia was roughly thesprotia not the whole of epirus vetus (old epirus) you dont even understand what your sources say 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 13:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
this information is important here..when did the people who speak vlach in pindus got there? its important information plus you havent added anything 87.202.43.218 ( talk) 14:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
great the usual people who have no idea of the topic locked the article in the contentless version see when it says 'references removed' but the version is still bigger it might have useful content which you apparently cant evaluate otherwise you wouldnt have locked it so here use the talk page so i can talk to some other user than megistias who apparently cant understand jack 87.202.3.215 ( talk) 06:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
so now we learn that the whole of epirus vetus became known as vagenetia but we dont know when the albanians or vlachs started moving southwards great 87.202.3.215 ( talk) 07:00, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
the section needs some addition, I'll check soon. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
its a small sentence about when the vlachs...the third main group in epirus after greeks and albanains...appear 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 19:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
its important to mention when the MAJOR GROUPS IN EPIRUS FIRST APPEAR IN THE REGION 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 20:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC) and no refs were removed so show what was or stop rving 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 20:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
the only one im ignoring is you since you dont seem able to discuss 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 20:16, 12 September 2009 (UTC) mention here what your exact CONCRETE PROBLEMS with the additions are 87.202.16.81 ( talk) 20:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
youre talking bullshit as usual where did i do this for example? 'you used Illyria to described modern borders' huh?? and vagenetia was inaccurate the way you wrote it and the previous edits have nothing to do with this so mention whats your problem with this one 87.202.18.98 ( talk) 22:47, 12 September 2009 (UTC) 'your corellations of medieval populations with ancient tribes' can you read?? thats kekaumenos' opinion which i added because its the first source that mentions the vlachs in epirus not becasue its the final word...did you see my note at all?? 87.202.18.98 ( talk) 22:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
why did megistias revert the article again and why has it been protected has his edits being checked by someone and believed to be better?? 85.73.230.150 ( talk) 10:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
The Tribes of Epirus in antiquity Map is clearly original research. Maps like this should not be created with original research from cherry picked sources. The listing as Macedonians as Greek is clearly POV and instead various academic linguistic sources and sources from anthropology and history should be used. And since there is not likely to be a consensus from the various scholars, a map like this which is put out as somehow fact is very misleading. Azalea pomp ( talk) 21:23, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
There are 8 references for this map cited, all of them from well known scholars like Hammond. I'm sorry but in classical antiquity Macedonians were clearly part of the Greek word. I wonder if there exists any scholar that claims that Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom) was not part of the ancient Greek world. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:55, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The sources also claim that they spoke a Greek dialect on 4th c. B.C.. Where is that cherry picking stuff exactly? Can you point a specific article in wiki or else Alexikoua ( talk) 22:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
It is a typical map that shows the concentration of the the 3 major dialect groups in both sides of the Aegean. Off course it does not include specific dialects of ancient Greek, like Achaean Doric Greek, Northwestern Greek, Arcadocypriot. Alexikoua ( talk) 07:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
As far I see the problem concerns the 'border' regions. Byllis (town) as well as Bylliones (the tribe which in the map are considered Ilyrians) depending on the source are classified whether Greeks or Ilyrians or both (like here [ [3]] o. 5). I suggest a less detailed version 'avoiding', specific towns/tribes like the above. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:25, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
From what I notice from this page, is that often there are contradictions from sources. The page is written with one source yet another source such as the map will contradict what is written. What there needs to be done is when a source is used, it needs to be quoted directly. Don't just claim a source for some blanket statement. As well, if there are other sources which contradict what another source states, then perhaps more sources are needed. Also, please no POV from either Greek, Albanian, Turkish, or whatever point of view one is trying to push. There are obvious problems with many of these maps which many of them are original resource. It is against policy to create a map based on your own research. I have demonstrated that the one Epirus map is claiming to use sources in its creation, but the sources to not back up what the map is trying to demonstrate. So what should all of us do to improve this article. As well, why is there no where on the article a discussion of the languages and dialects spoken in the Epirus region today? A mention of Epirote Northern Greek, Northern Tosk Albanian, Lab Tosk Albanian, and Cham Tosk Albanian, and I assume others should be included. Azalea pomp ( talk) 20:42, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I had some problems with the snap preview, but found another version of Tandy's map [ [6]]. You are right. Actually some dots (4-5) in wiki map are placed in Thessalia. I'll have to do some 'dot play' the following hours. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
OK, this section will be a work in progress. I will be looking at the sources which are cited for the creation of the Wikipedia map and what the Wikipedia map has. I will divide this section into errors and what is fine. As well as some comments.
First, here are some issues. The map needs to be dated with a date on map either an exact date or a circa date. Second, we need to distinguish "tribes" from cities clearly. Third, we need to precisely define ethnic groups this means Greek versus Macedonian. Do not conflate them. Hellenization does not mean Greek by ethnicity.
Here are some issues/errors so far: 1. Bryges listed as Thracians (Wilkes and SoO lists them as Phrygian). Thracian does not mean Phrgyian. 2. Byllis the city is said to be founded by Illyrians in Wilkes. 3. Why are regions outside Epirus shown? Shouldn't the map focus on Epirus? 4. Map is NOT dated. 5. Where does it state the Almopians are Thracians in any of the sources? Azalea pomp ( talk) 20:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Obviously Epirus has two main ethnic groups, Greeks and Albanians. As the Ottoman era map clearly demonstrates on this page. From the map, one can not make the claim that Epirus only has one principle or significant population. As this map does not even show Armenians, Slavs, or Turks in Epirus, they are clearly in the other category. Stop the POV pushing please. Azalea pomp ( talk) 19:31, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Actually, in the 'Boundaries and definitions' section it mentions that 'The historical region of Epirus is generally regarded as extending from the northern end of the Llogara mountains in present-day Albania (historically the Ceraunian mountains)', this means just above the coastal town of 'Himara' (Khimarra in this map). If you check the map carefully you will see that the light yellow regions begin just above this point, which geographically isn't Epirus.
If we exclude this northern part, it's easy to see that we have hardly any only Albanian light yeallow region. There might be a ca. 1:4 Albanians vs Greeks (&Vlachs) ratio. Off course there lived Albanians but in smaller numbers compared to Greek, according to the map. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
This is NOT the same as the Tandy map as we have already discussed. Do not take the original research tag off until it is fixed. Azalea pomp ( talk) 19:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
So here are the Updates listed now. We have Bryges marked as Phrygian; the Almopians, Stobi, Astibus, Agrianes, Doberes, Stropaiones, Laeeans as Paeonian; Serdi as Celtic; and the Bisaltal as Thracian.
Here is what is needed to be clarified and fixed. We need a date, better yet perhaps we should decide what would be a good date for a map like this. If the Serdi came later, then we can put a date after the Serdi name on the map. We need to clarify as well that this is a map of tribes, not languages. The languages are too little attested to make any detailed linguistic map. We don't know enough of Paeonian (if anything at all) to really make any meaningful statement. We need to include Macedonian tribes and they need to be distinguished in color from the Greek tribes and settlements. Perhaps the map's date should be set before Hellenization. Or we could add notes on when Hellenization took place for some of the tribes.
Azalea pomp ( talk) 20:02, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
I see that there is a disagreement among specific scholars, but according to wiki policy it would be better to base our conclusions on secondary sources (not tertiary). Moreover, the map in page 241 (Mallory, Adams), mistakenly excludes Epirus too from the areas that Northwestern Greek was spoken, without any explanation. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:42, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
"Why does language change? Why can we speak to and understand our parents but have trouble reading Shakespeare? Why is Chaucer's English of the fourteenth century so different from Modern English of the late twentieth century that the two are essentially different languages? Why are Americans and English 'one people divided by a common language'? And how can the language of Chaucer and Modern English - or Modern British and American English - still be called the same language? The present book provides answers to questions like these in a straightforward way, aimed at the non-specialist, with ample illustrations from both familiar and more exotic languages." Megistias ( talk) 23:47, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
In this [ [13]], the map in p. 363, concerns obviously the period before the Dorian invasion (before the 'western migration') since it shows Arcadocypriot dialect as spoken in all of Peloponnese. On the other hand there is no Doric dialect at all in the neighborhood. However it's focused (like the previous one) on the 'migration to Anatolia' (ca. 8th c. BC) and how it affected the 3 major dialect groups, which is really an interesting historical event among linguists.
I've found several books that describe what was spoken in Epirus in classical antiquity, some of them are: [ The Cambridge ancient history] (p. 284-285), [ The Illyrians] p. 12 "a widespread view that they spoke a form of Greek...", [ [14]] p. 25, [ History of the language sciences: an international handbook] p. 439.. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Something irrelevant but unique in universal bibliography: I wonder how can someone claim that there was an Albanian speaking region in 1,000 B.C. [ [15]](p. 43), however in the relevant section it states that the same language was first attested in 1500 AD... Alexikoua ( talk) 23:56, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Should the famous Pindus river not be the Pindus mountains? If there exists a Pindus rivier, it is not as famous as the mountains, which are an impressive border indeed. Fransvannes 14:58 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62
Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78
Quote: "When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98
Quote: "As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994
Quote: "Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks." Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin Publ., 1996
EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)
North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.
Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.
Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia. Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.
Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.
A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.
Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.
The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.
His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.
An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.
It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.
Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.
Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.
Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times. N.G.L.Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547
The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press, 1990.
Quote: The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia.... Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge University Press, 1997
Quote: Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.
David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995
Quote: Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994
the Satyres by Juvenal
Quote: The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles.. Page 225
"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew
Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; Quote: Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking Page 284
"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman
Quote: however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization. Quote: In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland. Page 443
Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423
A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith
Quote: Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.
That they [Dorians] were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients
History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations By Sylvain Auroux, page 439
Quote: the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia; "In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74
Quote: Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles Quote: He [Pyrrhus] has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.
Quote: he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. Quote: this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; Quote: But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside. Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus
Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;
Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking. "The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.
Quote: The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war. A Manual of Greek Antiquities Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8
It seems that the following recently created sentence makes a detailed description on what happened in only two years, while the entire paragraph which belongs (4 sentences in total) makes just a brief mention of one century long history (1348-1440). So, I've changed this: