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i vote we just remove this page as there exists now an Enlightenment (religious) page which within links to Bodhi and other related concepts...
This article needs a lot of improvement. Gantuya eng ( talk) 10:55, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
I re-ordered the page into a logical sequence of:
As far as I know and can see, the word "enlightenment" is often used in a gross way, throwing together different meanings. This does definately not contribute to our western understanding. Careful disentanglement of the different words is necessary, just as the difference between initial insight and full buddhahood - if that exists anyway. Joshua Jonathan ( talk) 21:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
The article by Paul G. Joseph is speculative:
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help)Paul G. Joseph is quite careless in his assumptions, and pares knowledge of biochemistry to a lack of knowledge of Buddhism and the meaning of "enlightenment", and an utterly naive lack of knowledge of critical textual studies, as any theologists could have told him. This article can't be taken serious; it's mere speculation. The fact that it's published in a scientific journal does not change the fatc that it's speculation.
Joshua Jonathan
(
talk)
04:51, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
There is a difference between "is said to have achieved full awakening" and "has achieved full awakening". According to Buddhist tradition, Gautama achieved full awakening. If this is so, cannot be reliably determined; it's an article of faith of Buddhism. And even within Buddhism, there are different viewpoints: "The Buddha and Bodhiharma are still practising" (Harris, Ishwar C. (2004), The Laughing Buddha of Tofukuji: The Life of Zen Master Keidō Fukushima, Bloomington, Indiana: World Wisdom, ISBN 978-0-941-53262-4 p.103) Joshua Jonathan ( talk) 11:51, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: There are only 2 types of enlightenment in classic Indian Buddhism: nirvana ( arhatship) or Buddhahood. VictoriaGrayson ( talk) 18:31, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I know. It's a little bit undue to give those terms such prominence here. But it'the tradition i know, so I've explained them here. "Enlightenment" is an unpractical word; it denotes so many aspects of Buddhism. And it suggests an "it", instead of a process and an attitude. Or habit, as in Covey's "Seven habits." Compare: buddha as "the awakened one", or as "the awake one". Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Even within Indian Buddhist tradition, there are at least two types of Nirvana: Nirvana With Remainder, and Nirvana Without Remainder. Then there is the term Parinirvana, which may or may not be the same in the tradition as Nirvana Without Remainder. There are different interpretations about what these terms imply as well. In sravaka tradition, Nirvana With Remainder may refer to Nirvana in this life while still subject to the five skandhas, while Nirvana Without Remainder may refer to Nirvana after death when the skandhas have been cast off. The bodhisattva tradition gives a different interpretation at times: that Nirvana With Remainder is the incomplete Nirvana of arhatship, whereas Nirvana Without Remainder may be had in this lifetime and refers to complete buddhahood. So even within one tradition (Indian Buddhism) these concepts have a long and kind of complicated history. And even within the same Mahayana sutra, there may be evidence for both gradual and instant paths to enlightenment (buddhahood). So it's best not to make claims like "X is Y" without qualifications. Wikipedia needs to follow relevant scholarship on the matter with care rather than making absolute claims or dismissing entire concepts as invented by the Zen school. If I remember correctly, the Theravada / Sthavira group regards Bodhi as a sudden occurance, whereas the bulk of other Indian Buddhist traditions tended to view it as gradual. As always, proceed with caution. Tengu800 01:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it helps readers of an encyclopaedia to be greeted with an arrogant and high-handed sneer at the word they have just looked up. The whole tone of this article needs to change from the beginning.
-- 174.7.56.10 ( talk) 17:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
My apologis, I didn't take the time to read your comment thoroughly. See the section on "Bodhi"; Bronkhorst, Vetter and Norman have some interesting comments here. According to them, it is not clear what "bodhi" initially referred to. It may have been as simple as realizing that dhyana "works" in "cooling down" the mind. That's not as elevated as "unique state of mind", but it's also not pure skepticism: dhyana works indeed, as many practitioners can tell. But to present "enlightenment" as something unique creates over-expectations. See for example Robert Sharf's "The rhetorics of meditative experience". Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:55, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
The following sentence in the lead may give undue weight to the gradual path in Buddhist tradition: "It has the western connotation of a sudden insight into a transcendental truth, whereas the Buddhist tradition sees the attainment of bodhi as a gradual path of attaining understanding." JimRenge ( talk) 10:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
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Bodhi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.144.144.172 ( talk) 10:22, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Ogress and Ms Sarah Welch: if bodhi is an abstract noun, how can it mean "to awake, become aware, notice, know or understand"? Thse are all verbs, aren't they? Please also chack: *budh- is बुध or बुद्ध ? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:27, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
The Title needs to be changed to Awaking in Buddhism. Enlightenment is a Christian concept that has no place in Buddhism, the article even explains this idea in detal. This is an article on Buddhism, not Judea-Christian schools, so why is title is reference to religions apart from the religion the article is explaining? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asaunbound ( talk • contribs) 04:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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i vote we just remove this page as there exists now an Enlightenment (religious) page which within links to Bodhi and other related concepts...
This article needs a lot of improvement. Gantuya eng ( talk) 10:55, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
I re-ordered the page into a logical sequence of:
As far as I know and can see, the word "enlightenment" is often used in a gross way, throwing together different meanings. This does definately not contribute to our western understanding. Careful disentanglement of the different words is necessary, just as the difference between initial insight and full buddhahood - if that exists anyway. Joshua Jonathan ( talk) 21:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
The article by Paul G. Joseph is speculative:
{{
citation}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help)Paul G. Joseph is quite careless in his assumptions, and pares knowledge of biochemistry to a lack of knowledge of Buddhism and the meaning of "enlightenment", and an utterly naive lack of knowledge of critical textual studies, as any theologists could have told him. This article can't be taken serious; it's mere speculation. The fact that it's published in a scientific journal does not change the fatc that it's speculation.
Joshua Jonathan
(
talk)
04:51, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
There is a difference between "is said to have achieved full awakening" and "has achieved full awakening". According to Buddhist tradition, Gautama achieved full awakening. If this is so, cannot be reliably determined; it's an article of faith of Buddhism. And even within Buddhism, there are different viewpoints: "The Buddha and Bodhiharma are still practising" (Harris, Ishwar C. (2004), The Laughing Buddha of Tofukuji: The Life of Zen Master Keidō Fukushima, Bloomington, Indiana: World Wisdom, ISBN 978-0-941-53262-4 p.103) Joshua Jonathan ( talk) 11:51, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
@ Joshua Jonathan: There are only 2 types of enlightenment in classic Indian Buddhism: nirvana ( arhatship) or Buddhahood. VictoriaGrayson ( talk) 18:31, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I know. It's a little bit undue to give those terms such prominence here. But it'the tradition i know, so I've explained them here. "Enlightenment" is an unpractical word; it denotes so many aspects of Buddhism. And it suggests an "it", instead of a process and an attitude. Or habit, as in Covey's "Seven habits." Compare: buddha as "the awakened one", or as "the awake one". Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Even within Indian Buddhist tradition, there are at least two types of Nirvana: Nirvana With Remainder, and Nirvana Without Remainder. Then there is the term Parinirvana, which may or may not be the same in the tradition as Nirvana Without Remainder. There are different interpretations about what these terms imply as well. In sravaka tradition, Nirvana With Remainder may refer to Nirvana in this life while still subject to the five skandhas, while Nirvana Without Remainder may refer to Nirvana after death when the skandhas have been cast off. The bodhisattva tradition gives a different interpretation at times: that Nirvana With Remainder is the incomplete Nirvana of arhatship, whereas Nirvana Without Remainder may be had in this lifetime and refers to complete buddhahood. So even within one tradition (Indian Buddhism) these concepts have a long and kind of complicated history. And even within the same Mahayana sutra, there may be evidence for both gradual and instant paths to enlightenment (buddhahood). So it's best not to make claims like "X is Y" without qualifications. Wikipedia needs to follow relevant scholarship on the matter with care rather than making absolute claims or dismissing entire concepts as invented by the Zen school. If I remember correctly, the Theravada / Sthavira group regards Bodhi as a sudden occurance, whereas the bulk of other Indian Buddhist traditions tended to view it as gradual. As always, proceed with caution. Tengu800 01:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it helps readers of an encyclopaedia to be greeted with an arrogant and high-handed sneer at the word they have just looked up. The whole tone of this article needs to change from the beginning.
-- 174.7.56.10 ( talk) 17:26, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
My apologis, I didn't take the time to read your comment thoroughly. See the section on "Bodhi"; Bronkhorst, Vetter and Norman have some interesting comments here. According to them, it is not clear what "bodhi" initially referred to. It may have been as simple as realizing that dhyana "works" in "cooling down" the mind. That's not as elevated as "unique state of mind", but it's also not pure skepticism: dhyana works indeed, as many practitioners can tell. But to present "enlightenment" as something unique creates over-expectations. See for example Robert Sharf's "The rhetorics of meditative experience". Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:55, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
The following sentence in the lead may give undue weight to the gradual path in Buddhist tradition: "It has the western connotation of a sudden insight into a transcendental truth, whereas the Buddhist tradition sees the attainment of bodhi as a gradual path of attaining understanding." JimRenge ( talk) 10:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Enlightenment in Buddhism. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 05:12, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Bodhi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.144.144.172 ( talk) 10:22, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Ogress and Ms Sarah Welch: if bodhi is an abstract noun, how can it mean "to awake, become aware, notice, know or understand"? Thse are all verbs, aren't they? Please also chack: *budh- is बुध or बुद्ध ? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:27, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
The Title needs to be changed to Awaking in Buddhism. Enlightenment is a Christian concept that has no place in Buddhism, the article even explains this idea in detal. This is an article on Buddhism, not Judea-Christian schools, so why is title is reference to religions apart from the religion the article is explaining? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asaunbound ( talk • contribs) 04:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)