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@ WolfsCastle: Don’t edit war, you’ll just end up blocked. Per WP:BRD, as you have been reverted put forward your arguments here rather than reverting again. You need WP:CONSENSUS to change the article and you don’t have it. DeCausa ( talk) 14:54, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
The thing was seldom named a "long" bow at the time of its use, that's mainly a modern-period usage although a very widespread one. As Hardy and Strickland point out, (The Great Warbow: From Hastings to the Mary Rose, 2011), it was usually a "hand" or "lugg" bow when it needed to be differentiated from a crossbow, otherwise just a bow. And it wasn't limited by nationality, originating in South Wales, used by English armies and then by Scots and French. I feel that we would have a more accurate and more stable solution, also one free from patriotic irritation, if we retitle this article to, perhaps "Mediaeval War Bow". Does anyone have any thoughts or further suggestions? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:01, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
It has been traditional since the late 19th century to quote Gerald of Wales' comments on Welsh archery when talking about the longbow. As modern debates have shown, this identification is no longer considered so certain. Just dropping in Gerald's words without caveat seems to out of synch with the remainder of the article. To remove them would be one option but they are quoted in reputable sources as part of the history of the longbow and the identification in central to the Welsh origin theory, which does give them some notability. Any attempt to qualify the statements in line with the competing theories risks a backlash of POV edit warring. In line with policy, I'm therefore offering this for discussion to the editing community. As written, the article is contradictory at best, misleading at worst. How do we improve it? Monstrelet ( talk) 17:44, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
the references to and quotes from Gerald of Wales are innaccurate in at least two different ways. first:, the quotes are not actually the words of Gerald of Wales himself. he makes it quite clear that this is the testimony of a man he calls "William of Breusa" which is almost certainly William de Braose (1145-1211) 4th Lord of Bramber. second: there is nothing in what he says that would make you think he is referring specifically to a Longbow. he just calls it a bow, with no indication of size at all. all of his comments about bows and Welsh archery come from a single page of Itinerarium Cambriae (although he spelled it with a K) and he gives three anecdotal second-hand examples of a very powerful bow. but he neither calls it a Longbow nor gives you any reason to suppose that is what he means. I am at this point struggling to understand why he is even in the article at all. would, for example, an article on the Japanese tea ceremony just randomly mention that they also drink tea in France? no. so why does an article on the English longbow just randomly mention that they also have bows in Wales? it just seems a bit odd and off topic. unless you are trying to specifically make the connection that the English Longbow may have, possibly, been developed from or alongside a pre-existing Welsh longbow. but Gerald does not make that connection for you because he is not talking about a Longbow. it's just a bow. an impressively powerful bow, but not obviously a Longbow. Cottonshirt τ 13:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
We have a persistent issue with an IP (or group of IPs) wanting to remove mention of Welsh longbow use from the lead. As I've pointed out with my last reversion, the IP doesn't seem to have read the article and seems to connect the statement to the origins debate, whereas the removed phrase refers to usage (I could argue the case out but I don't think there is much doubt the English and Welsh were using the same weapon from the 14th century onwards). Is there anything we can do to tackle this nuisance editing? A change in wording? A hatnote saying this article doesn't take a position on the origins of the longbow (which it doesn't)? Thoughts? Monstrelet ( talk) 09:26, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
My point is the longbow is a universal weapon everyone had one. Otzi had what qualified as a longbow but was he welsh no. Everyone had variations the famous of them all the English longbow was the developed and adapted by the English and was similar in length to those found in Denmark and much of the germanic. The welsh had a smaller composite bow of 4ft drawn to the chest for ambush so there should be a seperate page for their bow as it was effective at what they wanted. Welshman k ( talk) 21:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
This page has developed extremely well over the years. As an archery historian/writer it is very pleasing to be able to read something about the bow which doesn't make me wince every few sentences. There are however a few things which need to be addressed. First of all this is not about the Longbow it is solely about the English warbow -and I feel the title should reflect that - as should the early sentence that the Longbow was 6 foot long etc. Only the massive war bow was all these dimensions. There have always been many long bows which do not reach those dimensions -but they're still long bows. Note the two Tudor children's longbows discovered in the moat of Acton court, in Gloucestershire. Beautiful examples, each a perfect reflection of the dimensions and shape of the grownup's bow. There is also – in my view - sufficient evidence to support the idea that these bows were called long to distinguish them from the crossbow. This can be seen in the many inventories, where they are only called long if other types of bows, such a crossbows, are also included. One of the most famous - and earliest - references, often quoted, is in the Paston letters, when Margaret writes to her husband in London asking him to acquire some crossbows and windlasses for her to defend the house, for “our houses here are so low that we cannot shoot out of them with a Longbow however much we might wish to.” Although in speech the bow was almost certainly referred to just as a bow, or bowe, some writers are known to have called it the English bow, the bend bow, the hand bow, or the noble bow. However, there is no evidence whatever that it was ever called a lugg; this is a whimsy of Hugh Soar - fuelled by the names of two rivers, rising in Wales as the Llugwy and the Arwy, anglicised to the Lugg and the Arrow as they pass through Herefordshire and beyond. Returning to the subject heading, in support of my contention regarding the title, this excellent piece refers solely to the war bow, and says nothing about the hunting bow or the recreational bow - and there is a great deal to say about both. If this amendment were made, then all discussion on the correct name would no longer be necessary – since one can have a long war bow or a short war bow. Bogacwen ( talk) 11:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
English longbow article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
@ WolfsCastle: Don’t edit war, you’ll just end up blocked. Per WP:BRD, as you have been reverted put forward your arguments here rather than reverting again. You need WP:CONSENSUS to change the article and you don’t have it. DeCausa ( talk) 14:54, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
The thing was seldom named a "long" bow at the time of its use, that's mainly a modern-period usage although a very widespread one. As Hardy and Strickland point out, (The Great Warbow: From Hastings to the Mary Rose, 2011), it was usually a "hand" or "lugg" bow when it needed to be differentiated from a crossbow, otherwise just a bow. And it wasn't limited by nationality, originating in South Wales, used by English armies and then by Scots and French. I feel that we would have a more accurate and more stable solution, also one free from patriotic irritation, if we retitle this article to, perhaps "Mediaeval War Bow". Does anyone have any thoughts or further suggestions? Richard Keatinge ( talk) 21:01, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
It has been traditional since the late 19th century to quote Gerald of Wales' comments on Welsh archery when talking about the longbow. As modern debates have shown, this identification is no longer considered so certain. Just dropping in Gerald's words without caveat seems to out of synch with the remainder of the article. To remove them would be one option but they are quoted in reputable sources as part of the history of the longbow and the identification in central to the Welsh origin theory, which does give them some notability. Any attempt to qualify the statements in line with the competing theories risks a backlash of POV edit warring. In line with policy, I'm therefore offering this for discussion to the editing community. As written, the article is contradictory at best, misleading at worst. How do we improve it? Monstrelet ( talk) 17:44, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
the references to and quotes from Gerald of Wales are innaccurate in at least two different ways. first:, the quotes are not actually the words of Gerald of Wales himself. he makes it quite clear that this is the testimony of a man he calls "William of Breusa" which is almost certainly William de Braose (1145-1211) 4th Lord of Bramber. second: there is nothing in what he says that would make you think he is referring specifically to a Longbow. he just calls it a bow, with no indication of size at all. all of his comments about bows and Welsh archery come from a single page of Itinerarium Cambriae (although he spelled it with a K) and he gives three anecdotal second-hand examples of a very powerful bow. but he neither calls it a Longbow nor gives you any reason to suppose that is what he means. I am at this point struggling to understand why he is even in the article at all. would, for example, an article on the Japanese tea ceremony just randomly mention that they also drink tea in France? no. so why does an article on the English longbow just randomly mention that they also have bows in Wales? it just seems a bit odd and off topic. unless you are trying to specifically make the connection that the English Longbow may have, possibly, been developed from or alongside a pre-existing Welsh longbow. but Gerald does not make that connection for you because he is not talking about a Longbow. it's just a bow. an impressively powerful bow, but not obviously a Longbow. Cottonshirt τ 13:27, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
We have a persistent issue with an IP (or group of IPs) wanting to remove mention of Welsh longbow use from the lead. As I've pointed out with my last reversion, the IP doesn't seem to have read the article and seems to connect the statement to the origins debate, whereas the removed phrase refers to usage (I could argue the case out but I don't think there is much doubt the English and Welsh were using the same weapon from the 14th century onwards). Is there anything we can do to tackle this nuisance editing? A change in wording? A hatnote saying this article doesn't take a position on the origins of the longbow (which it doesn't)? Thoughts? Monstrelet ( talk) 09:26, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
My point is the longbow is a universal weapon everyone had one. Otzi had what qualified as a longbow but was he welsh no. Everyone had variations the famous of them all the English longbow was the developed and adapted by the English and was similar in length to those found in Denmark and much of the germanic. The welsh had a smaller composite bow of 4ft drawn to the chest for ambush so there should be a seperate page for their bow as it was effective at what they wanted. Welshman k ( talk) 21:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
This page has developed extremely well over the years. As an archery historian/writer it is very pleasing to be able to read something about the bow which doesn't make me wince every few sentences. There are however a few things which need to be addressed. First of all this is not about the Longbow it is solely about the English warbow -and I feel the title should reflect that - as should the early sentence that the Longbow was 6 foot long etc. Only the massive war bow was all these dimensions. There have always been many long bows which do not reach those dimensions -but they're still long bows. Note the two Tudor children's longbows discovered in the moat of Acton court, in Gloucestershire. Beautiful examples, each a perfect reflection of the dimensions and shape of the grownup's bow. There is also – in my view - sufficient evidence to support the idea that these bows were called long to distinguish them from the crossbow. This can be seen in the many inventories, where they are only called long if other types of bows, such a crossbows, are also included. One of the most famous - and earliest - references, often quoted, is in the Paston letters, when Margaret writes to her husband in London asking him to acquire some crossbows and windlasses for her to defend the house, for “our houses here are so low that we cannot shoot out of them with a Longbow however much we might wish to.” Although in speech the bow was almost certainly referred to just as a bow, or bowe, some writers are known to have called it the English bow, the bend bow, the hand bow, or the noble bow. However, there is no evidence whatever that it was ever called a lugg; this is a whimsy of Hugh Soar - fuelled by the names of two rivers, rising in Wales as the Llugwy and the Arwy, anglicised to the Lugg and the Arrow as they pass through Herefordshire and beyond. Returning to the subject heading, in support of my contention regarding the title, this excellent piece refers solely to the war bow, and says nothing about the hunting bow or the recreational bow - and there is a great deal to say about both. If this amendment were made, then all discussion on the correct name would no longer be necessary – since one can have a long war bow or a short war bow. Bogacwen ( talk) 11:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)