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While accepting that this may not be an area with a large depth of published academic debate, and with some trepedation that I'll start a distracting ("purist" V "evolutionary") debate on the use of cross-over terminology in Irish, I have flagged this article with a WP:OR tag.
For the OR tag to be removed (at the very least) the title itself (Béarlachas) would need some kind of reference to a secondary (ideally academic or published) source confirming meaning/usage of the term "Béarlachas" to refer to "Irish with English forms". (There probably is something if someone looked hard enough - I think I remember a Bord na Gaeilge discourse some time back.... :)
Beyond the OR issues, and as already tagged, the main body has no other citations, diversions to supporting texts, or any discussion on where/why/how this type of thing occurs. (Which might bear overlooking if the text did not read like a thinly veiled commentary on the correctness (or otherwise) of English/Irish crossover forms.)
A balanced article in this area should probably discuss how or why this "merge" occurs, with a nod towards the notion of Internationalism (linguistics), Loanwords, Semantic loans and how this can occur in living languages. Particularly those that share similar spoken community bases or with cultural overlaps. (EG: Perhaps a comment on how this type of thing might be expected when most speakers speak both languages?) The Sino-Japanese article as an example suffers from lack of citation also, but at least gives some background, and a slightly more balanced view. Guliolopez ( talk) 01:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the hints, Guliolopez. I think I know the Bord na nGaeilge discussion you're talking about. I'll try spend some time this weekend cleaning up the article and providing more evidence.
On a personal note, this is not original research - I grew up in "irish schools", where the main language was Irish. One of the biggest sins, apart from speaking in English itself, was the sin of Béarlachas. I'll try find evidence of that as well, as I think it is interesting. Kae_verens 13:16, 21 December 2007 (GMT)
Some notes:
Besides, the word "pidgin" is used in a non-specialist way. It could be justified to call the impoverished language of terminal speakers and bad second-language learners "pidgin" in some sense. But a kind of Irish riddled heavily with English words, but with an intelligent and intricate use of grammar, is scarcely "pidgin" in any sense. Panu Petteri Höglund ( talk) 16:18, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Most likely the reason that this article on "Béarlachas" was created is that Béarlachas has come to mean something more than Anglicism in Ireland, and has taken on an identity of it's own so to speak. To me and many others it refers to the dangerously liberal use of loan words which are endangering Irish as a language with it's own identity and integrity as opposed to a dialect of awkwardly written English words with the odd spattering of Latin. Béarlachas particularly refers to loan words for which a native Irish word already exists. Foras na Gaeilge as a national organisation have a lot to answer for as regards the words they have warped into "Irish". It is nonsensical to invent a new word in a language when a native word already exists or can be easily formed, scannán (film) is an example of their more informed work. It doesn't take much to look up the origin of a word in a dictionary and translate it, something which Foras na Gaeilge has failed and is failing to do, but Foras na Gaeilge "Sin scéal eile".
Car comes from Latin carrus meaning two wheeled vehicle, which may or may not come from a Celtic origin so let's presume it doesn't until otherwise proven.
As regards this statement: "No distinction is made between acceptable and unacceptable Anglicisms, or between Gaeltacht native anglicisms and English influence from non-native learners, or between established loanwords and new, unstable ones". How can you speak for all Irish speakers. From my own personal experience (something which I CAN account for), and many of my Irish speaking friends (many of whom are native speakers) have been reproached for using Béarlachas and do reproach others for doing so.
On the matter of Pidgin languages, going by what you say ISN'T pidgin, let us consider Engrish and Franglais standard English for all to use without a second thought, all in the name of English (it is a living growing language after all)...VEGERTABRES FOR EVELYBODY!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.147.139.74 ( talk) 23:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
"Some Béarlachas words use letters that are not traditionally in the Irish language..."
This is of course bonkers. Véarsa is attested in Peig, jab is an established loanword at least in Connemara. It might not be advisable to admit all colloquial loanwords into the written language, but it is entirely lunatic to allege that these words have been deliberately introduced by some sinister Foras na Gaeilge cabal. It would be more to the point to allege that modern, native writers of the language have introduced them. Panu Petteri Höglund ( talk) 13:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I can't see why this article should exist in the English Wikipedia at all. As Panu says above, it's really just the Irish word for Anglicism and it's not even a well judged survey of the topic. There's a big difference between long accepted loan words like praghas or dabht and some of the oddities that occur in some official Irish. Mere lexical items also pale into insignificance IMHO in comparison with the use of English grammar. There are also much more useful and informed sources on the internet on good Irish and I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason why it's Wikipedia's business anyway. Original research, not encyclopaedic and worst of all not interesting!
Don't get me wrong...I cringe at expressions like "ag fáil dorcha" but if you're going to tackle such a subjective and contentious issue, at least do it rigorously and in an appropriate article. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:13, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
The tone of this article is at times informal and slightly opinionated. I've picked out a few quotes as examples:
"Calquing also occurs: an English phrase is literally translated into Irish, even though an equivalent Irish phrase already exists."
The use of the term "literally" is what creates the informal tone in this case. A good way of knowing if a sentence is informal or not is to remove the word in question and see if the sentence still says what it wants to say, i.e.
"Calquing also occurs: an English phrase is translated into Irish, even though an equivalent Irish phrase already exists."
Note: without the term "literally" the sentence gives the same information but in a less opinionated tone.
"Many words are commonly thought by “purists” to be béarlachas"
-Unnecessary use of quotation marks on "purists".
"superstrate language and a minority language with few or no monolingual speakers and a perceived “lesser” status."
-Once again the use of quotation marks on "lesser" indicates the writer's opinion: re-phrasing needs to be done here. Also "superstate" is misspelled.
Also: The titles need to all have capital letters, i.e. these titles:
Modern concepts Old borrowings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.42.242 ( talk • contribs) 22:05, 15 March 2012
This para. appears to be from something completely different: muyembo nsoh evaris' m [[]] uyembo nsoh eavris, né le 8 may 1986 à bamenda au cameroon , est un homme d'État camerounias. Il est l'actuel un handballeur internationel, professional et etudent en france, Naissance : 8 may 1986 (27 ans), bamenda, nord ouest, cameroun Taille : 1,85 m –
If speakers of Irish think this article is rubbish (see above) who am I to argue? The distinction between Bearlachas and loan-words seems specious to me.
Chrismorey ( talk) 08:39, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
While accepting that this may not be an area with a large depth of published academic debate, and with some trepedation that I'll start a distracting ("purist" V "evolutionary") debate on the use of cross-over terminology in Irish, I have flagged this article with a WP:OR tag.
For the OR tag to be removed (at the very least) the title itself (Béarlachas) would need some kind of reference to a secondary (ideally academic or published) source confirming meaning/usage of the term "Béarlachas" to refer to "Irish with English forms". (There probably is something if someone looked hard enough - I think I remember a Bord na Gaeilge discourse some time back.... :)
Beyond the OR issues, and as already tagged, the main body has no other citations, diversions to supporting texts, or any discussion on where/why/how this type of thing occurs. (Which might bear overlooking if the text did not read like a thinly veiled commentary on the correctness (or otherwise) of English/Irish crossover forms.)
A balanced article in this area should probably discuss how or why this "merge" occurs, with a nod towards the notion of Internationalism (linguistics), Loanwords, Semantic loans and how this can occur in living languages. Particularly those that share similar spoken community bases or with cultural overlaps. (EG: Perhaps a comment on how this type of thing might be expected when most speakers speak both languages?) The Sino-Japanese article as an example suffers from lack of citation also, but at least gives some background, and a slightly more balanced view. Guliolopez ( talk) 01:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the hints, Guliolopez. I think I know the Bord na nGaeilge discussion you're talking about. I'll try spend some time this weekend cleaning up the article and providing more evidence.
On a personal note, this is not original research - I grew up in "irish schools", where the main language was Irish. One of the biggest sins, apart from speaking in English itself, was the sin of Béarlachas. I'll try find evidence of that as well, as I think it is interesting. Kae_verens 13:16, 21 December 2007 (GMT)
Some notes:
Besides, the word "pidgin" is used in a non-specialist way. It could be justified to call the impoverished language of terminal speakers and bad second-language learners "pidgin" in some sense. But a kind of Irish riddled heavily with English words, but with an intelligent and intricate use of grammar, is scarcely "pidgin" in any sense. Panu Petteri Höglund ( talk) 16:18, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Most likely the reason that this article on "Béarlachas" was created is that Béarlachas has come to mean something more than Anglicism in Ireland, and has taken on an identity of it's own so to speak. To me and many others it refers to the dangerously liberal use of loan words which are endangering Irish as a language with it's own identity and integrity as opposed to a dialect of awkwardly written English words with the odd spattering of Latin. Béarlachas particularly refers to loan words for which a native Irish word already exists. Foras na Gaeilge as a national organisation have a lot to answer for as regards the words they have warped into "Irish". It is nonsensical to invent a new word in a language when a native word already exists or can be easily formed, scannán (film) is an example of their more informed work. It doesn't take much to look up the origin of a word in a dictionary and translate it, something which Foras na Gaeilge has failed and is failing to do, but Foras na Gaeilge "Sin scéal eile".
Car comes from Latin carrus meaning two wheeled vehicle, which may or may not come from a Celtic origin so let's presume it doesn't until otherwise proven.
As regards this statement: "No distinction is made between acceptable and unacceptable Anglicisms, or between Gaeltacht native anglicisms and English influence from non-native learners, or between established loanwords and new, unstable ones". How can you speak for all Irish speakers. From my own personal experience (something which I CAN account for), and many of my Irish speaking friends (many of whom are native speakers) have been reproached for using Béarlachas and do reproach others for doing so.
On the matter of Pidgin languages, going by what you say ISN'T pidgin, let us consider Engrish and Franglais standard English for all to use without a second thought, all in the name of English (it is a living growing language after all)...VEGERTABRES FOR EVELYBODY!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.147.139.74 ( talk) 23:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
"Some Béarlachas words use letters that are not traditionally in the Irish language..."
This is of course bonkers. Véarsa is attested in Peig, jab is an established loanword at least in Connemara. It might not be advisable to admit all colloquial loanwords into the written language, but it is entirely lunatic to allege that these words have been deliberately introduced by some sinister Foras na Gaeilge cabal. It would be more to the point to allege that modern, native writers of the language have introduced them. Panu Petteri Höglund ( talk) 13:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I can't see why this article should exist in the English Wikipedia at all. As Panu says above, it's really just the Irish word for Anglicism and it's not even a well judged survey of the topic. There's a big difference between long accepted loan words like praghas or dabht and some of the oddities that occur in some official Irish. Mere lexical items also pale into insignificance IMHO in comparison with the use of English grammar. There are also much more useful and informed sources on the internet on good Irish and I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason why it's Wikipedia's business anyway. Original research, not encyclopaedic and worst of all not interesting!
Don't get me wrong...I cringe at expressions like "ag fáil dorcha" but if you're going to tackle such a subjective and contentious issue, at least do it rigorously and in an appropriate article. ☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 09:13, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
The tone of this article is at times informal and slightly opinionated. I've picked out a few quotes as examples:
"Calquing also occurs: an English phrase is literally translated into Irish, even though an equivalent Irish phrase already exists."
The use of the term "literally" is what creates the informal tone in this case. A good way of knowing if a sentence is informal or not is to remove the word in question and see if the sentence still says what it wants to say, i.e.
"Calquing also occurs: an English phrase is translated into Irish, even though an equivalent Irish phrase already exists."
Note: without the term "literally" the sentence gives the same information but in a less opinionated tone.
"Many words are commonly thought by “purists” to be béarlachas"
-Unnecessary use of quotation marks on "purists".
"superstrate language and a minority language with few or no monolingual speakers and a perceived “lesser” status."
-Once again the use of quotation marks on "lesser" indicates the writer's opinion: re-phrasing needs to be done here. Also "superstate" is misspelled.
Also: The titles need to all have capital letters, i.e. these titles:
Modern concepts Old borrowings — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.42.242 ( talk • contribs) 22:05, 15 March 2012
This para. appears to be from something completely different: muyembo nsoh evaris' m [[]] uyembo nsoh eavris, né le 8 may 1986 à bamenda au cameroon , est un homme d'État camerounias. Il est l'actuel un handballeur internationel, professional et etudent en france, Naissance : 8 may 1986 (27 ans), bamenda, nord ouest, cameroun Taille : 1,85 m –
If speakers of Irish think this article is rubbish (see above) who am I to argue? The distinction between Bearlachas and loan-words seems specious to me.
Chrismorey ( talk) 08:39, 11 August 2013 (UTC)