This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Are you intending to undertake? There are problems to be sorted; mainly that the article tends to read like a lot of editorialising upon the boundaries of folk, courtly and ecclesiastical with large paragraphs that are not really about folk music at all from the article's POV, like;
"Renaissance influences made the acquisition of musical knowledge an almost essential attribute for the nobleman and woman, and the ability to play an instrument became a necessary social grace.[9] There was also an internationalisation of courtly music in terms of both instruments and content: the lute, dulcimer and early forms of the harpsichord were played; madrigals were sung; the pavane and galliard were danced."
Now no doubt there are many influences from courtly Elizabethan music into Victorian folk repertoire, but the article does not delineate these. It fails to report the importance of the Romantic movement - Wordsworth and the later nationalist romantic composers - in creating the whole idea of "folk". To the extent that the theories concern folk-music as such, the place for all this is at the general folk music page. And we need to dispense with sheer convolutions like;
"since, even after the invention of musical notation, until the late medieval period only ecclesiastical music, then later that of court musicians, tended to be recorded,"
- especially since this too is merely pursuing the same POV. The article improves a lot with the "second folk revival" but up till there it reads largely like a personal essay on the general nature of folk and a primer on ordinary music history. It needs to follow sources (such as Lloyd, V-W, Sharp, Scholes) in outline, not just adapt them to the details of an original synthesis. Redheylin ( talk) 21:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Electronics is a branch of science and technology that deals with the flow of electrons through nonmetallic conductors, mainly semiconductors such as silicon. It is distinct from electrical science and technology, which deal with the flow of electrons and other charge carriers through metal conductors such as copper. This distinction started around 1906 with the invention by Lee De Forest of the triode. Until 1950 this field was called "radio technology" because its principal application was the design and theory of radio transmitters, receivers and vacuum tubes.
The study of semiconductor devices and related technology is considered a branch of physics, whereas the design and construction of electronic circuits to solve practical problems come under electronics engineering. This article focuses on engineering aspects of electronics.
Because of the close cultural connections between England and the USA, from the late twentieth century, the term has also been used for forms of music based on American roots music, traditional and folk music. English folk music has been the subject of a number of 'revivals' and periods of resurgence, particularly since the late nineteenth century. It has been seen as an important element of English national and working-class identity.
Redheylin ( talk) 01:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I understand the difference between electronics and electricity, but I was suggesting it was a false analogy and not challenging the nature of electronics. This discussion is getting very complex and taking in many points, I do not have time to comment on every point at the moment, so I suggest we take each major point to a sub-heading so that it can be dealt with clearly and one by one. Just one thing to say first: I revert good faith edits like yours very reluctantly and I do not believe there is now and edit war, but I am saying that I want to avoid one. I am actually not offended, but want any major changes to be discussed and the outcome of consensus.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 08:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I take the point over music of/in England. What this was trying to get around is the problem that the term folk music is used to describe music that English artists create and perform which owes as much, or more to the American singer-songwriters than traditional English music (John Martyn and Ralph McTell would be examples). A useful definition that tries to deal with these and other problems is in Ronald D. Cohen Folk music: the basics (CRC Press, 2006), pp. 1-2 and includes the following: "...we have to include in our story not only the development and collection of old songs, with no known composers, but also labor songs of the nineteenth century broadsides ... singer song-writers, such as Donovan and Bob Dylan, who emerged in the 1960s and much more." (Bearing in mind the subject discussed in that book is not just folk music of England). I think what is in the article doesn't say this very clearly, so perhaps we can come up with a form of words that makes that clear and balanced.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 08:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I have had a little time to look into definitions of popular music. I was using it here in the technical sense of "of the people" (as in The English and Scottish Popular Ballads), but I can see that it does have many meanings and this might be confusing to some readers. Some of the references could simply be changed to "traditional", but there are instances cases where that doesn't quite make sense - I think we can work around those, finding something case by case. Changing the one in the opening sentence in this way would significantly change the scope of the article, but possibilities include "traditionally based" or we could just remove "popular" altogether, since that sentence goes on to define what it is not. You may have another suggestion.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 19:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Are you intending to undertake? There are problems to be sorted; mainly that the article tends to read like a lot of editorialising upon the boundaries of folk, courtly and ecclesiastical with large paragraphs that are not really about folk music at all from the article's POV, like;
"Renaissance influences made the acquisition of musical knowledge an almost essential attribute for the nobleman and woman, and the ability to play an instrument became a necessary social grace.[9] There was also an internationalisation of courtly music in terms of both instruments and content: the lute, dulcimer and early forms of the harpsichord were played; madrigals were sung; the pavane and galliard were danced."
Now no doubt there are many influences from courtly Elizabethan music into Victorian folk repertoire, but the article does not delineate these. It fails to report the importance of the Romantic movement - Wordsworth and the later nationalist romantic composers - in creating the whole idea of "folk". To the extent that the theories concern folk-music as such, the place for all this is at the general folk music page. And we need to dispense with sheer convolutions like;
"since, even after the invention of musical notation, until the late medieval period only ecclesiastical music, then later that of court musicians, tended to be recorded,"
- especially since this too is merely pursuing the same POV. The article improves a lot with the "second folk revival" but up till there it reads largely like a personal essay on the general nature of folk and a primer on ordinary music history. It needs to follow sources (such as Lloyd, V-W, Sharp, Scholes) in outline, not just adapt them to the details of an original synthesis. Redheylin ( talk) 21:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Electronics is a branch of science and technology that deals with the flow of electrons through nonmetallic conductors, mainly semiconductors such as silicon. It is distinct from electrical science and technology, which deal with the flow of electrons and other charge carriers through metal conductors such as copper. This distinction started around 1906 with the invention by Lee De Forest of the triode. Until 1950 this field was called "radio technology" because its principal application was the design and theory of radio transmitters, receivers and vacuum tubes.
The study of semiconductor devices and related technology is considered a branch of physics, whereas the design and construction of electronic circuits to solve practical problems come under electronics engineering. This article focuses on engineering aspects of electronics.
Because of the close cultural connections between England and the USA, from the late twentieth century, the term has also been used for forms of music based on American roots music, traditional and folk music. English folk music has been the subject of a number of 'revivals' and periods of resurgence, particularly since the late nineteenth century. It has been seen as an important element of English national and working-class identity.
Redheylin ( talk) 01:11, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I understand the difference between electronics and electricity, but I was suggesting it was a false analogy and not challenging the nature of electronics. This discussion is getting very complex and taking in many points, I do not have time to comment on every point at the moment, so I suggest we take each major point to a sub-heading so that it can be dealt with clearly and one by one. Just one thing to say first: I revert good faith edits like yours very reluctantly and I do not believe there is now and edit war, but I am saying that I want to avoid one. I am actually not offended, but want any major changes to be discussed and the outcome of consensus.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 08:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I take the point over music of/in England. What this was trying to get around is the problem that the term folk music is used to describe music that English artists create and perform which owes as much, or more to the American singer-songwriters than traditional English music (John Martyn and Ralph McTell would be examples). A useful definition that tries to deal with these and other problems is in Ronald D. Cohen Folk music: the basics (CRC Press, 2006), pp. 1-2 and includes the following: "...we have to include in our story not only the development and collection of old songs, with no known composers, but also labor songs of the nineteenth century broadsides ... singer song-writers, such as Donovan and Bob Dylan, who emerged in the 1960s and much more." (Bearing in mind the subject discussed in that book is not just folk music of England). I think what is in the article doesn't say this very clearly, so perhaps we can come up with a form of words that makes that clear and balanced.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 08:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I have had a little time to look into definitions of popular music. I was using it here in the technical sense of "of the people" (as in The English and Scottish Popular Ballads), but I can see that it does have many meanings and this might be confusing to some readers. Some of the references could simply be changed to "traditional", but there are instances cases where that doesn't quite make sense - I think we can work around those, finding something case by case. Changing the one in the opening sentence in this way would significantly change the scope of the article, but possibilities include "traditionally based" or we could just remove "popular" altogether, since that sentence goes on to define what it is not. You may have another suggestion.-- Sabrebd ( talk) 19:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)