This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Engagements on Lake Ontario article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The anonymous IP 82.28.237.200 ( talk) has made repeated assertions to the effect that the entire contest was a "Decisive British Victory", on the grounds that
The engagements were a decisive strategic victory for the British, due to their far more powerful vessels on the lake, deterred the American fleet from setting sail. The result of this was that the lake remained in the hands of the British, so the Americans could not launch an invasion of Canada.
.
In addition to being inaccurate (and apparently written without reading the article), this view of US War Aims belongs in the main article on the War of 1812, where this IP has already made assertions that because the US did not win decisively, they were therefore defeated decisively. No serious history of the War makes any claim that the overall result of the War on Ontario was anything but an expensive draw. Assertions of decisive victories by either side therefore are Original Research and also violate NPOV HLGallon ( talk) 00:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It was a strategic victory for the British, because the Americans could not set sail, and thus control the lake so no force could launch an invasion of Canada. It appears you base the assumption that because the US history departments say it was indecisive, it makes it so. And NOWHERE did I claim that because the Americans did not win decisively they lost decisively. The fact that the British controlled the lake because the Americans did not set sail, the Americans could not launch an invasion of Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.237.200 ( talk) 16:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the Americans could not and did not launch an invasion up the Lake Superior route. With the British in effective control of the lake, and with no threat of an invasion, I'd call that a strategic victory at any price. And nowhere did I say you were American. Practice what you preach in terms of making statements without evidence. Also how is it an empty victory? Whether the war was nearly over or not is irrelevant, they did not know that at the time did they? The Americans could not launch an invasion of Canada, and thus a strategic victory had been won. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.237.200 ( talk) 16:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe the result of these engagements should be changed to "Tactically Indecisive, Decisive British strategic victory". The strategic victory is on the grounds that, even in the article, it states that since the British were effectively in control of the lake after they launched HMS St Lawrence, the American troops could not invade Canada through the Lake Ontario route because they did not have superiority on the lake. Sources claiming it a strategic victory are slim, due to the fact this engagement is rarely even heard of, but I believe it should be changed to a strategic victory at the least, if not a decisive one. ( Trip Johnson ( talk) 10:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC))
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:36, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Engagements on Lake Ontario article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The anonymous IP 82.28.237.200 ( talk) has made repeated assertions to the effect that the entire contest was a "Decisive British Victory", on the grounds that
The engagements were a decisive strategic victory for the British, due to their far more powerful vessels on the lake, deterred the American fleet from setting sail. The result of this was that the lake remained in the hands of the British, so the Americans could not launch an invasion of Canada.
.
In addition to being inaccurate (and apparently written without reading the article), this view of US War Aims belongs in the main article on the War of 1812, where this IP has already made assertions that because the US did not win decisively, they were therefore defeated decisively. No serious history of the War makes any claim that the overall result of the War on Ontario was anything but an expensive draw. Assertions of decisive victories by either side therefore are Original Research and also violate NPOV HLGallon ( talk) 00:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It was a strategic victory for the British, because the Americans could not set sail, and thus control the lake so no force could launch an invasion of Canada. It appears you base the assumption that because the US history departments say it was indecisive, it makes it so. And NOWHERE did I claim that because the Americans did not win decisively they lost decisively. The fact that the British controlled the lake because the Americans did not set sail, the Americans could not launch an invasion of Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.237.200 ( talk) 16:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the Americans could not and did not launch an invasion up the Lake Superior route. With the British in effective control of the lake, and with no threat of an invasion, I'd call that a strategic victory at any price. And nowhere did I say you were American. Practice what you preach in terms of making statements without evidence. Also how is it an empty victory? Whether the war was nearly over or not is irrelevant, they did not know that at the time did they? The Americans could not launch an invasion of Canada, and thus a strategic victory had been won. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.237.200 ( talk) 16:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe the result of these engagements should be changed to "Tactically Indecisive, Decisive British strategic victory". The strategic victory is on the grounds that, even in the article, it states that since the British were effectively in control of the lake after they launched HMS St Lawrence, the American troops could not invade Canada through the Lake Ontario route because they did not have superiority on the lake. Sources claiming it a strategic victory are slim, due to the fact this engagement is rarely even heard of, but I believe it should be changed to a strategic victory at the least, if not a decisive one. ( Trip Johnson ( talk) 10:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC))
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:36, 28 November 2022 (UTC)