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This page is being established with the first data entered 14 Feb 07. All additions and corrections gratefully received. dinghy 13:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I am really worried that there is a lot of cutting and pasting going on and therefore copyvio breaches may exist. The topic is worthwhile but ...-- Golden Wattle talk 20:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Edits (eg. to NSW by User:Vageesh) seem to be copied directly, formatting does not translate well. There are also inaccuracies in the article: Australia, as a signatory to the Kyoto Protocol. This needs to be written from scratch. RP Bravo 05:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Found copied text here and will remove content in accordance with WP:CP. RP Bravo 01:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Copied & pasted text from Victorian policy found here. Removing content in accordance with WP:CP. RP Bravo 01:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC). Found the rest of the Victorian part copied from here. RP Bravo 01:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Copied & pasted text from Queensland policy found here. Removing content in accordance with WP:CP. I'd also like to note that it is likely policy would have changed, as much of the copied content I am removing is over five to ten years old. RP Bravo 01:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Removing copied & pasted text from South Australia policy found here, here and here. RP Bravo 02:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Removing copied & pasted text from NT policy found here . RP Bravo 02:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the slow progress being made with this article. It's been in such a rudimentary state for so long. I've added some material on renewable energy but there is very little coverage of non-renewables. It seems rather one-sided so I'm adding a POV tag to alert readers. -- Johnfos 04:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Have brought in a bit more material from other articles, and hopefully there is more balance there now. Have removed POV tag. -- Johnfos 10:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
User:Vanshizzle has added a lot of unreferenced facts & figures, or text sourced from Greenpeace articles. The text contains emotive language such as "subsidies for fossil fuels are at an unbelievable 96%", "Sadly, the only subsidy allocated to aiding climate change was 'storage of GHG' with a subsidy of a mere $0.6 million." and "the colossal amounts of subsidies for fossil fuels" - making it inappropriate for an encyclopedia. I am thus replacing the POV tag. The english is also quite bad in places, such as "By reducing the energy costs of these household, they encourage people".... I am also concerned with possible copying and pasting of text. I intended to remove the text, but thought it best to put it up for discussion first. Note, User:Vanshizzle has only made contributions to this article. RP Bravo 08:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Before deleting material which has been cut and pasted, please carefully consider whether the material used falls within the "fair dealing" exemption dinghy 08:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)dinghy
The article got off to a slow start. It is now progressing reasonably rapidly, but it would be good to get more contributors to round the article out.
It would be good to see the language made more neutral and I am sure this will evolve over time. Hopefully the POV tag will then be able to be removed. There is nothing to stop other contributors from working on this aspect of the article to improve the neutrality.
The earlier contributions by some users in March were probably a bit naive and there were cuts and pastes of significant extracts from government pages, but there is a "fair dealing" exception to the copyright legislation and we should not ignore it. One way to ensure neutrality is to quote from the actual source and a quote, even a lengthy one, if properly acknowledged, is generally not a breach of copyright. I suggest that deleting for copyright violation ought not be done without discussion, preferably with the contributor or at least on the Talk page and only after consideration of the exemption for fair dealing.
As to the sources, yes there is an amount of material from "Energy and Transport Subsidies in Australia", but it is not from Greenpeace. It is from an independent institute associated with UTS, a federally funded University in Sydney and is merely work done for Greenpeace, in the same way that the CSIRO did work for the Business Round table on Climate Change, or Access Economics does work for the Federal Government. The more important question is are there errors or omissions in/from the independently researched published report. I have not seen any claims that the numbers used are wrong or contradicted in any material sense by other sources. I expect that over time further sources will added for various statements as that seems to be happening already.
As to policy, it seems the article as presently structured is evaluating government policy by looking at government interference with the market by subsidy or tax or by allowing externalities ("costs" of an enterprise to be passed on to others without charge by them for accepting those "costs"). Polluting the commons (eg public owned land air or sea) without charge is a common method of externalising costs. (Similarly allowing plundering or polluting of the commons without imposing a charge is a hidden subsidy). In my opinion, this is quite a good way to evaluate the real policy of government, as opposed to merely relying on quotes of politicians. If the money flows in a particular direction, that is probably the best evidence of the actual policy.
My hope is that more people will contribute to the article so that it continues to develop. If I find some time I will try to improve the article.
dinghy 08:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)dinghy
I believe this article has been significantly improved and expanded since it was rated Start class and it should now be re-rated to B class. dinghy 08:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I've been reading some more of Greenhouse Solutions with Sustainable Energy and notice that subsidies for fossil fuels are summarised in a Table on pages 290-291. This is the type of thing that would be useful here -- a summary Table, with a short discussion, rather than having the issue spread over many sections. -- Johnfos 21:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the POV tag (dated May 2007) presently near the top of the article. It was added without discussion on the talk page and by an anonymous user. The grounds for it being added are not cited. No evidence is offered to support the assertion of POV. dinghy 08:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the undated Cleanup-Rewrite tag added to the Fuels section of the article by an anonymous user and without any supporting discussion on this page dinghy 08:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I read an article recently which made me think of this page, and include a link to it here in case anyone is interested... Energy superpower – or sustainable energy leader Johnfos ( talk) 10:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
One thing I notice about this article is that is full of nonsense. Analyses by Greenpeace and Mark Diesendorf, widely criticised in mainstream sources as being logically and factually flawed, are referenced to provide much of the information. A common alternative view is that Fossil fuels are subject to heavy _net_ taxation in Australia, amounting to tens of billions of dollars annually, resulting in a cross-subsidy _from_ fossil fuels _to_ renewable energy forms.
Although there may be a place in an encyclopedia article for a mention of extreme minority views, the fact that Diesendorf's analysis is presented within the body of the article as though factual, without even a mention of the fact that his analysis is controversial or not widely accepted, is clearly a problem.
POV is too mild a tag for this material, frankly.
Ordinary Person ( talk) 02:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I have edited my contribution following a warning that it might be too heavily personal: I have not done this to be dishonest, but to avoid the removal of this contribution.
Ordinary Person ( talk) 02:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is in a bit of a mess, and it struck me that with the recent inclusion of the State Energy Templates at the end of the article, we could eliminate the Energy policy of Australia#State policies section. The Queensland sub-section could be split to a new article Energy in Queensland and the remaining State coverage (mainly dot points about subsidies) could be deleted. This would allow the article to flow a lot more and make it more readable, without losing much useful content. Johnfos ( talk) 05:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I see an editor has already started Energy in Queensland, which is fine. Given that the article is still 41k long, I will do some pruning of the State policies section but, in the light of Dingy's comment, won't go as far as I first intended... Johnfos ( talk) 00:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
"Energy policy of Australia is subject to regulation and fiscal influence of the three levels of Government in Australia" How much influence does the council level of government have on energy policy? Lumberjack Steve ( talk) 15:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Energy in Australia is currently a redirect to Energy policy of Australia. Energy is a different topic to Energy policy and they are both notable and therefore deserve their own articles. Some of the content on this page is more relevant to an Energy in Australia article. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 06:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Dont we need to create a page like Electricity sector in India for Australia? There is a page for Green Electricity in Australia and Wind Power in Australia, but what about Electricity in Australia? 116.240.160.188 ( talk) 14:26, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Australia will have carbon tax in 2012. In my opinion, the International Polluter pays principle would be justified method to control the climate change emissions and would be a fare solution to the disaster costs caused by the climate change. Has this been discussed in Australia? Watti Renew ( talk) 18:57, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Energy policy of Australia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page is being established with the first data entered 14 Feb 07. All additions and corrections gratefully received. dinghy 13:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I am really worried that there is a lot of cutting and pasting going on and therefore copyvio breaches may exist. The topic is worthwhile but ...-- Golden Wattle talk 20:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Edits (eg. to NSW by User:Vageesh) seem to be copied directly, formatting does not translate well. There are also inaccuracies in the article: Australia, as a signatory to the Kyoto Protocol. This needs to be written from scratch. RP Bravo 05:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Found copied text here and will remove content in accordance with WP:CP. RP Bravo 01:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Copied & pasted text from Victorian policy found here. Removing content in accordance with WP:CP. RP Bravo 01:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC). Found the rest of the Victorian part copied from here. RP Bravo 01:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Copied & pasted text from Queensland policy found here. Removing content in accordance with WP:CP. I'd also like to note that it is likely policy would have changed, as much of the copied content I am removing is over five to ten years old. RP Bravo 01:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Removing copied & pasted text from South Australia policy found here, here and here. RP Bravo 02:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Removing copied & pasted text from NT policy found here . RP Bravo 02:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the slow progress being made with this article. It's been in such a rudimentary state for so long. I've added some material on renewable energy but there is very little coverage of non-renewables. It seems rather one-sided so I'm adding a POV tag to alert readers. -- Johnfos 04:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Have brought in a bit more material from other articles, and hopefully there is more balance there now. Have removed POV tag. -- Johnfos 10:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
User:Vanshizzle has added a lot of unreferenced facts & figures, or text sourced from Greenpeace articles. The text contains emotive language such as "subsidies for fossil fuels are at an unbelievable 96%", "Sadly, the only subsidy allocated to aiding climate change was 'storage of GHG' with a subsidy of a mere $0.6 million." and "the colossal amounts of subsidies for fossil fuels" - making it inappropriate for an encyclopedia. I am thus replacing the POV tag. The english is also quite bad in places, such as "By reducing the energy costs of these household, they encourage people".... I am also concerned with possible copying and pasting of text. I intended to remove the text, but thought it best to put it up for discussion first. Note, User:Vanshizzle has only made contributions to this article. RP Bravo 08:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Before deleting material which has been cut and pasted, please carefully consider whether the material used falls within the "fair dealing" exemption dinghy 08:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)dinghy
The article got off to a slow start. It is now progressing reasonably rapidly, but it would be good to get more contributors to round the article out.
It would be good to see the language made more neutral and I am sure this will evolve over time. Hopefully the POV tag will then be able to be removed. There is nothing to stop other contributors from working on this aspect of the article to improve the neutrality.
The earlier contributions by some users in March were probably a bit naive and there were cuts and pastes of significant extracts from government pages, but there is a "fair dealing" exception to the copyright legislation and we should not ignore it. One way to ensure neutrality is to quote from the actual source and a quote, even a lengthy one, if properly acknowledged, is generally not a breach of copyright. I suggest that deleting for copyright violation ought not be done without discussion, preferably with the contributor or at least on the Talk page and only after consideration of the exemption for fair dealing.
As to the sources, yes there is an amount of material from "Energy and Transport Subsidies in Australia", but it is not from Greenpeace. It is from an independent institute associated with UTS, a federally funded University in Sydney and is merely work done for Greenpeace, in the same way that the CSIRO did work for the Business Round table on Climate Change, or Access Economics does work for the Federal Government. The more important question is are there errors or omissions in/from the independently researched published report. I have not seen any claims that the numbers used are wrong or contradicted in any material sense by other sources. I expect that over time further sources will added for various statements as that seems to be happening already.
As to policy, it seems the article as presently structured is evaluating government policy by looking at government interference with the market by subsidy or tax or by allowing externalities ("costs" of an enterprise to be passed on to others without charge by them for accepting those "costs"). Polluting the commons (eg public owned land air or sea) without charge is a common method of externalising costs. (Similarly allowing plundering or polluting of the commons without imposing a charge is a hidden subsidy). In my opinion, this is quite a good way to evaluate the real policy of government, as opposed to merely relying on quotes of politicians. If the money flows in a particular direction, that is probably the best evidence of the actual policy.
My hope is that more people will contribute to the article so that it continues to develop. If I find some time I will try to improve the article.
dinghy 08:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)dinghy
I believe this article has been significantly improved and expanded since it was rated Start class and it should now be re-rated to B class. dinghy 08:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I've been reading some more of Greenhouse Solutions with Sustainable Energy and notice that subsidies for fossil fuels are summarised in a Table on pages 290-291. This is the type of thing that would be useful here -- a summary Table, with a short discussion, rather than having the issue spread over many sections. -- Johnfos 21:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I am removing the POV tag (dated May 2007) presently near the top of the article. It was added without discussion on the talk page and by an anonymous user. The grounds for it being added are not cited. No evidence is offered to support the assertion of POV. dinghy 08:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the undated Cleanup-Rewrite tag added to the Fuels section of the article by an anonymous user and without any supporting discussion on this page dinghy 08:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I read an article recently which made me think of this page, and include a link to it here in case anyone is interested... Energy superpower – or sustainable energy leader Johnfos ( talk) 10:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
One thing I notice about this article is that is full of nonsense. Analyses by Greenpeace and Mark Diesendorf, widely criticised in mainstream sources as being logically and factually flawed, are referenced to provide much of the information. A common alternative view is that Fossil fuels are subject to heavy _net_ taxation in Australia, amounting to tens of billions of dollars annually, resulting in a cross-subsidy _from_ fossil fuels _to_ renewable energy forms.
Although there may be a place in an encyclopedia article for a mention of extreme minority views, the fact that Diesendorf's analysis is presented within the body of the article as though factual, without even a mention of the fact that his analysis is controversial or not widely accepted, is clearly a problem.
POV is too mild a tag for this material, frankly.
Ordinary Person ( talk) 02:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I have edited my contribution following a warning that it might be too heavily personal: I have not done this to be dishonest, but to avoid the removal of this contribution.
Ordinary Person ( talk) 02:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is in a bit of a mess, and it struck me that with the recent inclusion of the State Energy Templates at the end of the article, we could eliminate the Energy policy of Australia#State policies section. The Queensland sub-section could be split to a new article Energy in Queensland and the remaining State coverage (mainly dot points about subsidies) could be deleted. This would allow the article to flow a lot more and make it more readable, without losing much useful content. Johnfos ( talk) 05:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I see an editor has already started Energy in Queensland, which is fine. Given that the article is still 41k long, I will do some pruning of the State policies section but, in the light of Dingy's comment, won't go as far as I first intended... Johnfos ( talk) 00:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
"Energy policy of Australia is subject to regulation and fiscal influence of the three levels of Government in Australia" How much influence does the council level of government have on energy policy? Lumberjack Steve ( talk) 15:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Energy in Australia is currently a redirect to Energy policy of Australia. Energy is a different topic to Energy policy and they are both notable and therefore deserve their own articles. Some of the content on this page is more relevant to an Energy in Australia article. -- Alan Liefting ( talk) - 06:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Dont we need to create a page like Electricity sector in India for Australia? There is a page for Green Electricity in Australia and Wind Power in Australia, but what about Electricity in Australia? 116.240.160.188 ( talk) 14:26, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Australia will have carbon tax in 2012. In my opinion, the International Polluter pays principle would be justified method to control the climate change emissions and would be a fare solution to the disaster costs caused by the climate change. Has this been discussed in Australia? Watti Renew ( talk) 18:57, 8 November 2011 (UTC)