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I have yet to find a source for the contents of the final bill, or even a halfway-detailed summary! This is very frustrating, and I would appreciate anyone finding such sources to at least add them to External Links. Simesa 13:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Viewing the Bill
I must say I am astounded at the quick response!
69.87.155.4's information is appreciated, but not sourced! I have requested a source.
Ben's link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8748924/ is already broken. Once the dust settles and this gets composed into an article, a different cite will be needed. Simesa 14:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it's not really appropriate to have a vote tally here. Maybe at Wikisource or somesuch. · Katefan0 (scribble) 17:17, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Can we please try to avoid demagoguing this one? Provides massive subsidies for oil companies which are already competative and profitable and support Republicans financially. Really. This statement, as it is, has no place in a neutral encyclopedia. · Katefan0 (scribble) 17:39, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. A least rephrase it. Anything going into the background of nay organization should be out, or else we would have to explain how the universe works in every article. Just limit it to "Provides subsisies for oil companies" and leave out the background on the oil companies. I'm tired and not making much sense, sorry. Dboyz-x.etown 07:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
There's absolutely no reason to include a random comment by Stabenow, who is a Democrat, and not a particularly prominent one at that (Harry Reid I could see), when no other lawmaker comments have been included in the article. She wasn't even a member of the conference committee. Voting on the bill doesn't make a lawmaker's comment relevant; most everybody voted on this thing at one point or another. Does that mean we should include comments by the 431 members of the House and Senate who voted on the conference report? Because I assure you, they all released statements. · Katefan0 (scribble) 18:14, August 9, 2005 (UTC))
"Provides massive subsidies for oil companies which are already competative and profitable and support Republicans financially."
Come on!
Cost estimates for each provision in the bill need to be included with the relevant provisions. Some provisions costs under $1 million, while others may cost over $1,000 million. Provisions should be ordered by cost, from most costly to least costly. Americanus 07:41, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I was going to move the comments by Wyden and Clinton to "Votes", only to find they were there already!
First, Wikipedia is not a political blog. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not.
Second, the remarks were not balanced by comments from any of the three-quarters of senators who voted for the Act.
While I hope to vote for Mrs. Clinton in 2008, that does not change Wikipedia's basis! Simesa 11:49, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The article
Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005_Vote has been recommended for Deletion. If interested, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005_Vote
Simesa
12:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
As it is written contains a LOT of weasel words. It needs to be rewritten with some more specifics. · Katefan0 (scribble) 13:39, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
Also as it is written, there are seven criticisms, 5 of which are democratic criticisms, 2 of which are republican criticisms. Of all the criticisms, one was rebuked - a Republican criticism. Aside from the fact that criticisms and opinion have NO place in an encyclopedia, why is the only rebuke in response to the Republican criticism? This article has no balance, and serves more as a piece of propaganda that it does a fact-based article.
The last paragraph states
The bill did not include provisions for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) even though some Republicans claim "access to the abundant oil reserves in ANWR would strengthen America's energy independence without harming the environment."[10] This claim, however, has been rebuffed by scientific and oil industry experts.[11] [12]
Clicking on the links to References 11 and 12 indicate the articles do not support the claim that references them. The first is a general article from National Geogrpahic that discusses an arctic oil spill. The other is a Department of Energy annual report. There is no link to any article by the scientific community to suport the claim. There is no link to an oil industry article to support the claim. I would suggest that this paragraph be deleted. baronvon
I concur with baronvon's statement above. The two footnotes provided for the "rebuffed" statement are beneficial reads to be sure, but they don't seem to support the claim that references them. Elwood harvey ( talk) 21:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Since it appears that nobody has refuted the statements above by baronvon and myself, I've added a "failed verification" flag to these two footnotes. Elwood harvey ( talk) 16:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
I believe that as of 2010 the wording of the update to USC Title 42 changed. The details tying these together are at Halliburton Loophole. Is it worth updating this indicating there's new wording and is this the right place to do the updates? [1]-- Johnny ( talk) 20:36, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
References
The only thing worse in an encyclopedia than no information is Wrong information. Data from the failed 2003 bill should not be considered a priori to be the same as in the 2005 bill. Especially since [1] only adds up to a little over $4.25 billion for nuclear which, with a DOE reactor added in, closely matches the numbers in [2] - both references already in the article. Simesa 20:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Simesa, saw your question in the edit summary. This gets confusing real quick, but the 12.3b cost is what the Congressional Budget Office scored the bill through 2015, so just adding up accounts isn't necessarily going to get you that number. I think the straight total is $11.6 b in tax incentives over 11 years, which includes $2.8 b for fossil fuel production and $1.3 b for conservation and energy efficiency. But, of course, straight totals don't always account for the entire "cost" of something. Here's the CBO link: [3] · Katefan0 (scribble) 20:06, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
What is this stuff? Would any other encyclopedia include it? My opinion is that it should be deleted. Simesa 01:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Energy Policy Act of 2005 Vote should definitely be merged here. Most of the information, especially the parts the main contributor to the article thinks is most important, can be recorded in one, or possibly two external links (which is where information of this type should be). The analysis needs not be so long and should be on the main page, while the legislative process section in the main article is more record keeping that need not be in here.
Considering the vfd discussion had a consensus to either delete or merge, assuming the article hasn't been fixed up (which it obviously hasn't and probably can't), I'd nominate this for vfd again if there's no movement. The analysis can probably be rewritten better from scratch than salvaged from what is currently there. Telso 05:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
In it's currently form, it looks like the article is 25% what's in the bill (including what was part of the original house bill that wasn't in the final version); 65% arguments against the bill [general against + 2 summaries of Senate floor speaches against]; 10% legislative history summary. For balance, it desperately needs 2 summaries of speaches from Senate Supporters, (preferably chairmen of the commitees) and a general in favor. 168.166.196.40 19:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed this from the list of provisions, and replaced it with what seemed to me to be the two most damning bits of the Post article: the incentives for drilling in the Gulf and exemptions from water standards for oil and gas companies. I agree that the Act was not nearly as renewable-friendly as advertised, but to just say that it gives subsidies to oil companies is not NPOV. Kyle Cronan 08:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added a POV tag because most of the page is arguments against the bill and there's no coresponding arguments in favor of it. Jon 15:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The caption "tax breaks" is slanted because it implies that the government is "giving" someone a "break", with overtones of luck or favoritism. It sounds like a handout, and the media frequently uses this phrase with exactly that intended slanted effect. Tax opponents would prefer the term "tax relief". This slants the other way, suggesting taxes are a burden and tax reductions make that burden slightly less. An accurate term without either slant would be "tax reduction" so I am changing the caption accordingly. 129.219.55.204 15:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't see the importance of noting that the change to Daylight Saving Time is going to extend the amount of daylight on Halloween. There used to be a sentence following it noting how the Act would result in DST time change sometimes occurring 2 days before election day. This line was removed, although it seems to be quite a bit more relevant than Halloween. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.146.101.26 ( talk) 18:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC).
I removed the comment "you only listed 13 senators, not 14". I'm not convinced that the senators should be identified but the comment needed to be moved to here. Tiles ( talk) 03:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with recent edits that remove all references to Obama using the bill to direct criticism at McCain, especially since it has kept the criticism leveled by Hillary Clinton towards Obama. I also believe that it is not in conflict with WP:SYNTHESIS since the original writing of it summarizes the sources to make it readable since the original source is a voting record. According to Wikipedia, "Summarizing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis; it is good editing. " If you want to clean up some of the wording (changing attacks to criticizes) that is acceptable, but removing most of the information (and all the sources) then following that up with more editing because the section needs to be sourced seems odd to me. I believe the original section, with some word changes to make more neutral, was well referenced (1 AP article and 2 official senate voting records) and was an important addition to the criticisms directly caused by the Energy Policy Act of 2005. Cwagmire ( talk) 22:07, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
One might note that the legislation enacted that the change to the US rules would occur on March 1st 2007. It did not say at what time or times (presumably at 00:00 local winter time?). For clock change purposes, the instant of a rule change is immaterial, provided that it is safely within one season both before & after. But, for some purposes, there can be a requirement to use the now-current rules for all dates; JavaScript is an example (see ISO/IEC 16262 or ECMA-262). It could not, therefore, have been legally proper in the USA to run JavaScript in pre-Vista Windows across 2007-03-01 00:00:00 LCT. 82.163.24.100 ( talk) 10:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The Diesel Emissions Reduction Act (DERA), Title VII, Subtitle G (Sections 791 to 797), was included in the Energy Policy Act of 2005 (EPAct). [4] -- Nopetro ( talk) 14:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Energy Policy Act of 2005/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
==WP Tax Class==
Start class. Should go up to B class. However, this article needs more references. EECavazos 18:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC) ==WP Tax Priority== Mid priority because about a current national tax law scheme, high traffic(?). EECavazos 18:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 18:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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The states regulate fracking so that particular provision was inconsequential. The most significant aspect of this law was creating the modern ethanol industry after it was initially a small industry that grew as a replacement for MTBE and then due to the energy crisis from 2001-2008 it was seen as a way to reduce dependence on imported oil. Clam chowdah ( talk) 03:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
The most consequential aspect of this law was the expansion of the ethanol industry. Obama and his most important backer Tom Daschle were big supporters of ethanol and ethanol is very important in Illinois and SD and Iowa which was the state that jumpstarted his 2008 campaign. Ethanol is seen as a negative in New Hampshire and so it did make sense for Hillary to oppose this legislation from a political perspective. Clam chowdah ( talk) 21:21, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I have yet to find a source for the contents of the final bill, or even a halfway-detailed summary! This is very frustrating, and I would appreciate anyone finding such sources to at least add them to External Links. Simesa 13:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Viewing the Bill
I must say I am astounded at the quick response!
69.87.155.4's information is appreciated, but not sourced! I have requested a source.
Ben's link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8748924/ is already broken. Once the dust settles and this gets composed into an article, a different cite will be needed. Simesa 14:30, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it's not really appropriate to have a vote tally here. Maybe at Wikisource or somesuch. · Katefan0 (scribble) 17:17, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Can we please try to avoid demagoguing this one? Provides massive subsidies for oil companies which are already competative and profitable and support Republicans financially. Really. This statement, as it is, has no place in a neutral encyclopedia. · Katefan0 (scribble) 17:39, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. A least rephrase it. Anything going into the background of nay organization should be out, or else we would have to explain how the universe works in every article. Just limit it to "Provides subsisies for oil companies" and leave out the background on the oil companies. I'm tired and not making much sense, sorry. Dboyz-x.etown 07:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
There's absolutely no reason to include a random comment by Stabenow, who is a Democrat, and not a particularly prominent one at that (Harry Reid I could see), when no other lawmaker comments have been included in the article. She wasn't even a member of the conference committee. Voting on the bill doesn't make a lawmaker's comment relevant; most everybody voted on this thing at one point or another. Does that mean we should include comments by the 431 members of the House and Senate who voted on the conference report? Because I assure you, they all released statements. · Katefan0 (scribble) 18:14, August 9, 2005 (UTC))
"Provides massive subsidies for oil companies which are already competative and profitable and support Republicans financially."
Come on!
Cost estimates for each provision in the bill need to be included with the relevant provisions. Some provisions costs under $1 million, while others may cost over $1,000 million. Provisions should be ordered by cost, from most costly to least costly. Americanus 07:41, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
I was going to move the comments by Wyden and Clinton to "Votes", only to find they were there already!
First, Wikipedia is not a political blog. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not.
Second, the remarks were not balanced by comments from any of the three-quarters of senators who voted for the Act.
While I hope to vote for Mrs. Clinton in 2008, that does not change Wikipedia's basis! Simesa 11:49, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The article
Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005_Vote has been recommended for Deletion. If interested, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005_Vote
Simesa
12:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
As it is written contains a LOT of weasel words. It needs to be rewritten with some more specifics. · Katefan0 (scribble) 13:39, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
Also as it is written, there are seven criticisms, 5 of which are democratic criticisms, 2 of which are republican criticisms. Of all the criticisms, one was rebuked - a Republican criticism. Aside from the fact that criticisms and opinion have NO place in an encyclopedia, why is the only rebuke in response to the Republican criticism? This article has no balance, and serves more as a piece of propaganda that it does a fact-based article.
The last paragraph states
The bill did not include provisions for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) even though some Republicans claim "access to the abundant oil reserves in ANWR would strengthen America's energy independence without harming the environment."[10] This claim, however, has been rebuffed by scientific and oil industry experts.[11] [12]
Clicking on the links to References 11 and 12 indicate the articles do not support the claim that references them. The first is a general article from National Geogrpahic that discusses an arctic oil spill. The other is a Department of Energy annual report. There is no link to any article by the scientific community to suport the claim. There is no link to an oil industry article to support the claim. I would suggest that this paragraph be deleted. baronvon
I concur with baronvon's statement above. The two footnotes provided for the "rebuffed" statement are beneficial reads to be sure, but they don't seem to support the claim that references them. Elwood harvey ( talk) 21:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Since it appears that nobody has refuted the statements above by baronvon and myself, I've added a "failed verification" flag to these two footnotes. Elwood harvey ( talk) 16:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
I believe that as of 2010 the wording of the update to USC Title 42 changed. The details tying these together are at Halliburton Loophole. Is it worth updating this indicating there's new wording and is this the right place to do the updates? [1]-- Johnny ( talk) 20:36, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
References
The only thing worse in an encyclopedia than no information is Wrong information. Data from the failed 2003 bill should not be considered a priori to be the same as in the 2005 bill. Especially since [1] only adds up to a little over $4.25 billion for nuclear which, with a DOE reactor added in, closely matches the numbers in [2] - both references already in the article. Simesa 20:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Simesa, saw your question in the edit summary. This gets confusing real quick, but the 12.3b cost is what the Congressional Budget Office scored the bill through 2015, so just adding up accounts isn't necessarily going to get you that number. I think the straight total is $11.6 b in tax incentives over 11 years, which includes $2.8 b for fossil fuel production and $1.3 b for conservation and energy efficiency. But, of course, straight totals don't always account for the entire "cost" of something. Here's the CBO link: [3] · Katefan0 (scribble) 20:06, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
What is this stuff? Would any other encyclopedia include it? My opinion is that it should be deleted. Simesa 01:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
Energy Policy Act of 2005 Vote should definitely be merged here. Most of the information, especially the parts the main contributor to the article thinks is most important, can be recorded in one, or possibly two external links (which is where information of this type should be). The analysis needs not be so long and should be on the main page, while the legislative process section in the main article is more record keeping that need not be in here.
Considering the vfd discussion had a consensus to either delete or merge, assuming the article hasn't been fixed up (which it obviously hasn't and probably can't), I'd nominate this for vfd again if there's no movement. The analysis can probably be rewritten better from scratch than salvaged from what is currently there. Telso 05:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
In it's currently form, it looks like the article is 25% what's in the bill (including what was part of the original house bill that wasn't in the final version); 65% arguments against the bill [general against + 2 summaries of Senate floor speaches against]; 10% legislative history summary. For balance, it desperately needs 2 summaries of speaches from Senate Supporters, (preferably chairmen of the commitees) and a general in favor. 168.166.196.40 19:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed this from the list of provisions, and replaced it with what seemed to me to be the two most damning bits of the Post article: the incentives for drilling in the Gulf and exemptions from water standards for oil and gas companies. I agree that the Act was not nearly as renewable-friendly as advertised, but to just say that it gives subsidies to oil companies is not NPOV. Kyle Cronan 08:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added a POV tag because most of the page is arguments against the bill and there's no coresponding arguments in favor of it. Jon 15:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The caption "tax breaks" is slanted because it implies that the government is "giving" someone a "break", with overtones of luck or favoritism. It sounds like a handout, and the media frequently uses this phrase with exactly that intended slanted effect. Tax opponents would prefer the term "tax relief". This slants the other way, suggesting taxes are a burden and tax reductions make that burden slightly less. An accurate term without either slant would be "tax reduction" so I am changing the caption accordingly. 129.219.55.204 15:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't see the importance of noting that the change to Daylight Saving Time is going to extend the amount of daylight on Halloween. There used to be a sentence following it noting how the Act would result in DST time change sometimes occurring 2 days before election day. This line was removed, although it seems to be quite a bit more relevant than Halloween. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.146.101.26 ( talk) 18:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC).
I removed the comment "you only listed 13 senators, not 14". I'm not convinced that the senators should be identified but the comment needed to be moved to here. Tiles ( talk) 03:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with recent edits that remove all references to Obama using the bill to direct criticism at McCain, especially since it has kept the criticism leveled by Hillary Clinton towards Obama. I also believe that it is not in conflict with WP:SYNTHESIS since the original writing of it summarizes the sources to make it readable since the original source is a voting record. According to Wikipedia, "Summarizing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis; it is good editing. " If you want to clean up some of the wording (changing attacks to criticizes) that is acceptable, but removing most of the information (and all the sources) then following that up with more editing because the section needs to be sourced seems odd to me. I believe the original section, with some word changes to make more neutral, was well referenced (1 AP article and 2 official senate voting records) and was an important addition to the criticisms directly caused by the Energy Policy Act of 2005. Cwagmire ( talk) 22:07, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
One might note that the legislation enacted that the change to the US rules would occur on March 1st 2007. It did not say at what time or times (presumably at 00:00 local winter time?). For clock change purposes, the instant of a rule change is immaterial, provided that it is safely within one season both before & after. But, for some purposes, there can be a requirement to use the now-current rules for all dates; JavaScript is an example (see ISO/IEC 16262 or ECMA-262). It could not, therefore, have been legally proper in the USA to run JavaScript in pre-Vista Windows across 2007-03-01 00:00:00 LCT. 82.163.24.100 ( talk) 10:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The Diesel Emissions Reduction Act (DERA), Title VII, Subtitle G (Sections 791 to 797), was included in the Energy Policy Act of 2005 (EPAct). [4] -- Nopetro ( talk) 14:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Energy Policy Act of 2005/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
==WP Tax Class==
Start class. Should go up to B class. However, this article needs more references. EECavazos 18:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC) ==WP Tax Priority== Mid priority because about a current national tax law scheme, high traffic(?). EECavazos 18:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 18:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 14:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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The states regulate fracking so that particular provision was inconsequential. The most significant aspect of this law was creating the modern ethanol industry after it was initially a small industry that grew as a replacement for MTBE and then due to the energy crisis from 2001-2008 it was seen as a way to reduce dependence on imported oil. Clam chowdah ( talk) 03:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
The most consequential aspect of this law was the expansion of the ethanol industry. Obama and his most important backer Tom Daschle were big supporters of ethanol and ethanol is very important in Illinois and SD and Iowa which was the state that jumpstarted his 2008 campaign. Ethanol is seen as a negative in New Hampshire and so it did make sense for Hillary to oppose this legislation from a political perspective. Clam chowdah ( talk) 21:21, 7 January 2022 (UTC)