This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Close helm was copied or moved into Close helmet on Andy Dingley ( talk). The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Close_helmet was copied or moved into close helm on Andy Dingley ( talk). The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
See Talk:Close_helmet#This_page_should_be_deleted Andy Dingley ( talk) 12:05, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Close helmet which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:28, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
The basic difficulty is that "close helm" is used in the available literature as an alternative to "close helmet" to describe the same 16-17th century helmet with a bevor attached to the same pivot as the visor(s).
To appropriate "close helm" to describe early fore-runners of the "great helm" dating to c. 1170-1220 is a neologism and as such cannot be countenanced in any form of encyclopedia.
The present article "Close helm" has to be renamed, there is no alternative. Urselius ( talk) 08:53, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I have just searched Google Books and JSTOR, there is no usage of the term "close helm" for the transitional forms of helmet dating to c. 1170-1220. The majority of works call these "great helms" or describe a transition between helmets with nasals and great helms without giving any name to the intermediate forms. I found a single reputable source which called the intermediate form a "barrel helm." I would suggest that if you want to keep a separate article for these helmets that you call the article "Barrel helm". Urselius ( talk) 09:12, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I have discovered one reference to this helmet type being called an "Enclosed helmet" or "completely enclosing helm". Norman Knight 950-1204 AD, Christopher Gravett, 1993, Osprey, plate D and p. 54. Although an Osprey, the author was a curator of Armour at the Royal Armouries and so his usage and opinion carries some weight. I imagine that this is where the writer of this article got his nomenclature. To distance this article from close helmet I will rename it in line with Gravett's usage. I intend at some stage to revamp Nasal helmet and create an article called "Early helms" so that the evolution from nasal helmet to great helm can be followed by any interested reader. I hope that this will be a major improvement in clarity, though I would still rather delete this article altogether. Urselius ( talk) 11:42, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Close helm was copied or moved into Close helmet on Andy Dingley ( talk). The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Close_helmet was copied or moved into close helm on Andy Dingley ( talk). The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
See Talk:Close_helmet#This_page_should_be_deleted Andy Dingley ( talk) 12:05, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Close helmet which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 20:28, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
The basic difficulty is that "close helm" is used in the available literature as an alternative to "close helmet" to describe the same 16-17th century helmet with a bevor attached to the same pivot as the visor(s).
To appropriate "close helm" to describe early fore-runners of the "great helm" dating to c. 1170-1220 is a neologism and as such cannot be countenanced in any form of encyclopedia.
The present article "Close helm" has to be renamed, there is no alternative. Urselius ( talk) 08:53, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I have just searched Google Books and JSTOR, there is no usage of the term "close helm" for the transitional forms of helmet dating to c. 1170-1220. The majority of works call these "great helms" or describe a transition between helmets with nasals and great helms without giving any name to the intermediate forms. I found a single reputable source which called the intermediate form a "barrel helm." I would suggest that if you want to keep a separate article for these helmets that you call the article "Barrel helm". Urselius ( talk) 09:12, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I have discovered one reference to this helmet type being called an "Enclosed helmet" or "completely enclosing helm". Norman Knight 950-1204 AD, Christopher Gravett, 1993, Osprey, plate D and p. 54. Although an Osprey, the author was a curator of Armour at the Royal Armouries and so his usage and opinion carries some weight. I imagine that this is where the writer of this article got his nomenclature. To distance this article from close helmet I will rename it in line with Gravett's usage. I intend at some stage to revamp Nasal helmet and create an article called "Early helms" so that the evolution from nasal helmet to great helm can be followed by any interested reader. I hope that this will be a major improvement in clarity, though I would still rather delete this article altogether. Urselius ( talk) 11:42, 29 December 2012 (UTC)