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So I had always been under the impression that the pawn’s two-square move and the en passant capture were introduced at the same time, as that was what I had been told all this time. It made sense to me that whoever came up with the pawn’s two-square move would have spotted the problem quickly afterwards or at least while testing the new rule out first before implementing it into their actual games. However, I have now been informed that there is no conclusive evidence that this is the case. On the other hand, I have not been informed that there is conclusive evidence that it isn’t the case, which is a different thing entirely. If such evidence does exist, I would like to see it; if not, then maybe the article’s claims shouldn’t be so confident. ISaveNewspapers ( talk) 00:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
For what it's worth, from The Oxford History of Board Games (Parlett, 1999), p. 305:
The pawn's initial two-step, an obvious way of advancing engagement, appears in the Alfonso manuscript of 1283 and in the Spanish, Lombard, German and Anglo-French assizes, though with variations. In some cases the privilege was restricted to rook, queen, and king pawns, in others it ceased once a capture had been made. Capture en passant can be inferred from problems composed in accordance with the Anglo-French assize, which goes back to 1150.
-- IHTS ( talk) 04:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
I prefer to have the pronunciation and translation of "en passant" in a note. This article already has the potential to be super confusing; I want the first paragraph to read continuously so the reader isn't distracted. Also, I don't understand the purpose of locating the pronunciation and translation in a separate place from the term itself; it seems rather strange. ISaveNewspapers ( talk) 20:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
En passant (French: [ɑ̃ paˈsɑ̃], lit. "in passing") describes a capture move in chess. It occurs when [...]
Here's the deal ... Here is the edit (by ISaveNewspapers, back in April) that changed the use of en passant in the lede sentence as a noun ("En passant is a capture", also previously "En passant is a move") to an adjective ("The en passant capture is a move"): [1]. Since then if I'm not mistaken ISaveNewspapers has been changing occurrences of "En passant" being used as a subject noun, to "The en passant capture" or "An en passant capture", using it as an adjective modifier, all over creation. *My* change yesterday from "The en passant capture" to "En passant describes a capture move" was an effort to put the word first again so the foreign term parenthetical could immediately follow rather than the alternatives of sandwiching it between words "en passant" and "capture", or placing it at the end of phrase "en passant capture", which ISaveNewspapers has objected to in this thread, while appeasing her preference to retain use of en passant as an adjective. (I can't read ISaveNewspapers' mind, perhaps she saw en passant as adjective based on the translation "in passing", which is adjective or adverb modifier, and that explains all her other edits to en passant phrases too, and, I've always thought she is probably technically correct about that.) But today Quale has changed again to use as noun ("En passant is a special move"), which sits fine with me because in normal usage in chess, yeah, en passant is typically or traditionally often used as a noun, even ISaveNewspaper's magnifier on that usage as incorrect is probably technically true. So it seems (correct me if am wrong), the issue is between common but technically incorrect usage, versus technically correct grammatical usage. (I side w/ Quale on this. What say you, ISaveNewspapers?) -- IHTS ( talk) 13:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Actually, I think it might make sense to provide an English-language pronunciation as well, to reflect what approximations are used by chessplayers who don't speak French. There's some given at the Cambridge dictionary. Kwamikagami? Double sharp ( talk) 14:23, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Isn't it subjective to describe this move as "special"? ISaveNewspapers ( talk) 22:51, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Am also warm to the current "En passant is a special move in chess that occurs ...", even if less correct, since it has the virtue of stopping any potential confusion immediately. -- IHTS ( talk) 01:23, 15 December 2022 (UTC)"En passant (French: [ɑ̃ paˈsɑ̃], lit. "in passing") is a special method of capturing in chess that occurs when a pawn captures a horizontally adjacent enemy pawn ...".
not a method"?!? OCC, p. 124: "en passant, a special method of capturing, [...]" -- IHTS ( talk) 02:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
Why do we single this out for being "special"?The word in the OCC & WP sentences modifies "capturing method", and is justified in that capturing on a square where the captured piece is not, is a unique capturing method to all other pieces. Expanding the application of the word beyond that it's a modifier of phrase "capturing method" isn't a fair or logical comparison/argument. (Else we'd draw wild conclusions as you did, e.g. that the lede sentence in article Chess should say "a special board game", etc.) -- IHTS ( talk) 04:54, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
In chess, En passant (French: [ɑ̃ paˈsɑ̃], lit. "in passing") refers to a situational extension of a pawn’s standard capturing method. It permits the capture of an enemy pawn that has just made an initial two-square advance.[2][3] The capturing pawn moves to the square that the enemy pawn had passed over, capturing it as if the enemy pawn had advanced only one square. The rule ensures that a pawn cannot use its two-square move to safely skip past an enemy pawn.
Hooper & Whyld (1996) uses "ep" not "e.p.". (Am no linguist, seems the periods don't make sense, but have seen it lots.) Will chg to "ep" everywhere found unless consensus says not!? Cheers, -- IHTS ( talk) 22:10, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
I always understood this move as, "You're capturing the enemy pawn while it's in the middle of its two-square move." Personally, I find that the most intuitive way to think about it. Do you think adding something like that into the article might make it easier for readers to wrap their heads around this move? ISaveNewspapers ( talk) 20:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
En passant (French: [ɑ̃ paˈsɑ̃], lit. "in passing") is a special method of capturing in chess that occurs when a pawn captures a horizontally adjacent enemy pawn that has just made an initial two-square advance. The capturing pawn moves to the square that the enemy pawn passed over, as if the enemy pawn was captured in the middle of its two-square move. The rule ensures that a pawn cannot use its two-square move to safely skip past an enemy pawn.
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I don't like this proposed rewording, because it can lead to the misunderstanding that the enemy pawn never finished its move. It is well-described by the problem to the right. White plays 1.Bg2+, black responds 1...d5#, and White plays 2.cxd6 e.p.+! Black objects that this is illegal (it doesn't get White out of check), to which White responds that Black's d-pawn was cut down by en passant before it got to d5 and so never blocked White's check. I think the counterfactual framing is really needed to make it clear that, no, the Black pawn really made it to d5, and White is checkmated. Double sharp ( talk) 09:13, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
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The statement given in the article appears to be unclear on a certain kind of technicality. Suppose the game proceeds in Diagram 1 1.e4+ Kg6 2.Kf3 Kh5 3.Kg2+ Kg6 4.Kf3 Kh5 5.Kg2+. Is this a threefold or not? Theoretically the right to capture e.p. existed as a "pseudo-legal" move after 1.e4+, in the sense that an enemy pawn just moved two squares forward; but it could never really be exercised because 1...fxe3 e.p. wouldn't have gotten Black out of check.
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Bewilderingly, the
FIDE laws of chess seem to be self-contradictory here (Article 9.2). It writes that Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of
all the pieces of both players are the same.
That means that this is a threefold, because Black's legal moves after 1.e4+, 3.Kg2+, and 5.Kg2+ are the same. On the other hand it is then written When a king or a rook is forced to move, it will lose its castling rights, if any, only after it is moved.
This is despite the fact that the legal moves in question would be the same, if you have such a metaphysical castling right that could never be exercised. So in Diagram 2, 1...Bg3+ 2.Kf1 Bf4 3.Ke1 Bg3+ 4.Kf1 Bf4 5.Ke1 Bg3+ is not a threefold, because White's castling right was only lost after 2.Kf1! This is confirmed by
Geurt Gijssen. I would guess that there are no metaphysical en passant rights (on the basis of them not being mentioned), but it hardly seems clear. (And what about if we added a wNg1 to Diagram 2 and play 1...Be3 2.Kf1 Bf4 3.Ke1 Be3 4.Kf1 Bf4 5.Ke1 Be3? Then the king was not forced to move, but castling was never a legal move to begin with, only a theoretical future possibility that 2.Kf1 ruled out!)
Double sharp (
talk)
12:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
9.2.2 Positions are considered the same if and only if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. Thus positions are not the same if:
9.2.2.1 at the start of the sequence a pawn could have been captured en passant
9.2.2.2 a king had castling rights with a rook that has not been moved, but forfeited these after moving. The castling rights are lost only after the king or rook is moved.
As I now discover, this was heavily discussed on MatPlus a decade ago. It seems that metaphysical castling rights exist, but metaphysical en passant rights do not. Nonetheless I agree with Joost de Heer, Valery Liskovets, and Stewart Reuben that this is illogical. :) Double sharp ( talk) 17:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Should we address the misconception that en passant is forced? Not sure how common this misconception is, but I do see it arising from time to time. ComeAndHear ( talk) 03:02, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Failed verification tags- whole section is uncited. Some sources may be unreliable. A bit many primary sources to my likings. If this is not fixed by 29 May 2024, then this article shall be demoted to C class. 48JCL ( talk) 19:36, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
The section with no citations is En passant#Chess variants. It was added largely in a couple of edits in January and March 2021. The question of which variants have en passant and which do not is not one that I have seen discussed in my reading, and I would be happy to remove the whole section, if there were consensus to do so. Bruce leverett ( talk) 02:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
The "failed verification" tag is on the citation of McCrary's article in Chess Life. The article is interesting, and discusses en passant, but it does not support the claim that the earliest references were from the 16th century.
That citation was added last November, by an editor who has since been indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing! Before it was added, we weren't any better off, because the claim that the earliest references were from the 16th century wasn't supported by any cited source at all.
I would have guessed that Murray's A History of Chess would at least discuss the question of when en passant was introduced, but I don't see it. On page 812, he mentions en passant in listing the differences in the rules used in Spain versus in Italy, and on page 815, he mentions it in connection with Ruy Lopez's book. One can infer from this that the rule was referenced in the 16th century, but not that this was the "earliest" century. Bruce leverett ( talk) 03:21, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
"This article is written like a personal reflection, personal essay, or argumentative essay that states a Wikipedia editor's personal feelings or presents an original argument about a topic. (May 2024)"
I don't see how this is any of those types of essays. It clearly states the rule and gives examples. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
He also acknowledges that the rule was not universal at the time. I have a copy of the recent English translation. It's very wordy but I can quote chapter and verse if you like. MaxBrowne2 ( talk) 03:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
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So I had always been under the impression that the pawn’s two-square move and the en passant capture were introduced at the same time, as that was what I had been told all this time. It made sense to me that whoever came up with the pawn’s two-square move would have spotted the problem quickly afterwards or at least while testing the new rule out first before implementing it into their actual games. However, I have now been informed that there is no conclusive evidence that this is the case. On the other hand, I have not been informed that there is conclusive evidence that it isn’t the case, which is a different thing entirely. If such evidence does exist, I would like to see it; if not, then maybe the article’s claims shouldn’t be so confident. ISaveNewspapers ( talk) 00:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
For what it's worth, from The Oxford History of Board Games (Parlett, 1999), p. 305:
The pawn's initial two-step, an obvious way of advancing engagement, appears in the Alfonso manuscript of 1283 and in the Spanish, Lombard, German and Anglo-French assizes, though with variations. In some cases the privilege was restricted to rook, queen, and king pawns, in others it ceased once a capture had been made. Capture en passant can be inferred from problems composed in accordance with the Anglo-French assize, which goes back to 1150.
-- IHTS ( talk) 04:03, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
I prefer to have the pronunciation and translation of "en passant" in a note. This article already has the potential to be super confusing; I want the first paragraph to read continuously so the reader isn't distracted. Also, I don't understand the purpose of locating the pronunciation and translation in a separate place from the term itself; it seems rather strange. ISaveNewspapers ( talk) 20:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
En passant (French: [ɑ̃ paˈsɑ̃], lit. "in passing") describes a capture move in chess. It occurs when [...]
Here's the deal ... Here is the edit (by ISaveNewspapers, back in April) that changed the use of en passant in the lede sentence as a noun ("En passant is a capture", also previously "En passant is a move") to an adjective ("The en passant capture is a move"): [1]. Since then if I'm not mistaken ISaveNewspapers has been changing occurrences of "En passant" being used as a subject noun, to "The en passant capture" or "An en passant capture", using it as an adjective modifier, all over creation. *My* change yesterday from "The en passant capture" to "En passant describes a capture move" was an effort to put the word first again so the foreign term parenthetical could immediately follow rather than the alternatives of sandwiching it between words "en passant" and "capture", or placing it at the end of phrase "en passant capture", which ISaveNewspapers has objected to in this thread, while appeasing her preference to retain use of en passant as an adjective. (I can't read ISaveNewspapers' mind, perhaps she saw en passant as adjective based on the translation "in passing", which is adjective or adverb modifier, and that explains all her other edits to en passant phrases too, and, I've always thought she is probably technically correct about that.) But today Quale has changed again to use as noun ("En passant is a special move"), which sits fine with me because in normal usage in chess, yeah, en passant is typically or traditionally often used as a noun, even ISaveNewspaper's magnifier on that usage as incorrect is probably technically true. So it seems (correct me if am wrong), the issue is between common but technically incorrect usage, versus technically correct grammatical usage. (I side w/ Quale on this. What say you, ISaveNewspapers?) -- IHTS ( talk) 13:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Actually, I think it might make sense to provide an English-language pronunciation as well, to reflect what approximations are used by chessplayers who don't speak French. There's some given at the Cambridge dictionary. Kwamikagami? Double sharp ( talk) 14:23, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Isn't it subjective to describe this move as "special"? ISaveNewspapers ( talk) 22:51, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Am also warm to the current "En passant is a special move in chess that occurs ...", even if less correct, since it has the virtue of stopping any potential confusion immediately. -- IHTS ( talk) 01:23, 15 December 2022 (UTC)"En passant (French: [ɑ̃ paˈsɑ̃], lit. "in passing") is a special method of capturing in chess that occurs when a pawn captures a horizontally adjacent enemy pawn ...".
not a method"?!? OCC, p. 124: "en passant, a special method of capturing, [...]" -- IHTS ( talk) 02:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
Why do we single this out for being "special"?The word in the OCC & WP sentences modifies "capturing method", and is justified in that capturing on a square where the captured piece is not, is a unique capturing method to all other pieces. Expanding the application of the word beyond that it's a modifier of phrase "capturing method" isn't a fair or logical comparison/argument. (Else we'd draw wild conclusions as you did, e.g. that the lede sentence in article Chess should say "a special board game", etc.) -- IHTS ( talk) 04:54, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
In chess, En passant (French: [ɑ̃ paˈsɑ̃], lit. "in passing") refers to a situational extension of a pawn’s standard capturing method. It permits the capture of an enemy pawn that has just made an initial two-square advance.[2][3] The capturing pawn moves to the square that the enemy pawn had passed over, capturing it as if the enemy pawn had advanced only one square. The rule ensures that a pawn cannot use its two-square move to safely skip past an enemy pawn.
Hooper & Whyld (1996) uses "ep" not "e.p.". (Am no linguist, seems the periods don't make sense, but have seen it lots.) Will chg to "ep" everywhere found unless consensus says not!? Cheers, -- IHTS ( talk) 22:10, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
I always understood this move as, "You're capturing the enemy pawn while it's in the middle of its two-square move." Personally, I find that the most intuitive way to think about it. Do you think adding something like that into the article might make it easier for readers to wrap their heads around this move? ISaveNewspapers ( talk) 20:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
En passant (French: [ɑ̃ paˈsɑ̃], lit. "in passing") is a special method of capturing in chess that occurs when a pawn captures a horizontally adjacent enemy pawn that has just made an initial two-square advance. The capturing pawn moves to the square that the enemy pawn passed over, as if the enemy pawn was captured in the middle of its two-square move. The rule ensures that a pawn cannot use its two-square move to safely skip past an enemy pawn.
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I don't like this proposed rewording, because it can lead to the misunderstanding that the enemy pawn never finished its move. It is well-described by the problem to the right. White plays 1.Bg2+, black responds 1...d5#, and White plays 2.cxd6 e.p.+! Black objects that this is illegal (it doesn't get White out of check), to which White responds that Black's d-pawn was cut down by en passant before it got to d5 and so never blocked White's check. I think the counterfactual framing is really needed to make it clear that, no, the Black pawn really made it to d5, and White is checkmated. Double sharp ( talk) 09:13, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
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The statement given in the article appears to be unclear on a certain kind of technicality. Suppose the game proceeds in Diagram 1 1.e4+ Kg6 2.Kf3 Kh5 3.Kg2+ Kg6 4.Kf3 Kh5 5.Kg2+. Is this a threefold or not? Theoretically the right to capture e.p. existed as a "pseudo-legal" move after 1.e4+, in the sense that an enemy pawn just moved two squares forward; but it could never really be exercised because 1...fxe3 e.p. wouldn't have gotten Black out of check.
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Bewilderingly, the
FIDE laws of chess seem to be self-contradictory here (Article 9.2). It writes that Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of
all the pieces of both players are the same.
That means that this is a threefold, because Black's legal moves after 1.e4+, 3.Kg2+, and 5.Kg2+ are the same. On the other hand it is then written When a king or a rook is forced to move, it will lose its castling rights, if any, only after it is moved.
This is despite the fact that the legal moves in question would be the same, if you have such a metaphysical castling right that could never be exercised. So in Diagram 2, 1...Bg3+ 2.Kf1 Bf4 3.Ke1 Bg3+ 4.Kf1 Bf4 5.Ke1 Bg3+ is not a threefold, because White's castling right was only lost after 2.Kf1! This is confirmed by
Geurt Gijssen. I would guess that there are no metaphysical en passant rights (on the basis of them not being mentioned), but it hardly seems clear. (And what about if we added a wNg1 to Diagram 2 and play 1...Be3 2.Kf1 Bf4 3.Ke1 Be3 4.Kf1 Bf4 5.Ke1 Be3? Then the king was not forced to move, but castling was never a legal move to begin with, only a theoretical future possibility that 2.Kf1 ruled out!)
Double sharp (
talk)
12:31, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
9.2.2 Positions are considered the same if and only if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. Thus positions are not the same if:
9.2.2.1 at the start of the sequence a pawn could have been captured en passant
9.2.2.2 a king had castling rights with a rook that has not been moved, but forfeited these after moving. The castling rights are lost only after the king or rook is moved.
As I now discover, this was heavily discussed on MatPlus a decade ago. It seems that metaphysical castling rights exist, but metaphysical en passant rights do not. Nonetheless I agree with Joost de Heer, Valery Liskovets, and Stewart Reuben that this is illogical. :) Double sharp ( talk) 17:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Should we address the misconception that en passant is forced? Not sure how common this misconception is, but I do see it arising from time to time. ComeAndHear ( talk) 03:02, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Failed verification tags- whole section is uncited. Some sources may be unreliable. A bit many primary sources to my likings. If this is not fixed by 29 May 2024, then this article shall be demoted to C class. 48JCL ( talk) 19:36, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
The section with no citations is En passant#Chess variants. It was added largely in a couple of edits in January and March 2021. The question of which variants have en passant and which do not is not one that I have seen discussed in my reading, and I would be happy to remove the whole section, if there were consensus to do so. Bruce leverett ( talk) 02:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
The "failed verification" tag is on the citation of McCrary's article in Chess Life. The article is interesting, and discusses en passant, but it does not support the claim that the earliest references were from the 16th century.
That citation was added last November, by an editor who has since been indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing! Before it was added, we weren't any better off, because the claim that the earliest references were from the 16th century wasn't supported by any cited source at all.
I would have guessed that Murray's A History of Chess would at least discuss the question of when en passant was introduced, but I don't see it. On page 812, he mentions en passant in listing the differences in the rules used in Spain versus in Italy, and on page 815, he mentions it in connection with Ruy Lopez's book. One can infer from this that the rule was referenced in the 16th century, but not that this was the "earliest" century. Bruce leverett ( talk) 03:21, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
"This article is written like a personal reflection, personal essay, or argumentative essay that states a Wikipedia editor's personal feelings or presents an original argument about a topic. (May 2024)"
I don't see how this is any of those types of essays. It clearly states the rule and gives examples. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 02:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
He also acknowledges that the rule was not universal at the time. I have a copy of the recent English translation. It's very wordy but I can quote chapter and verse if you like. MaxBrowne2 ( talk) 03:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)