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Does my description have misconception? (Not thinking the mistake of grammar)
Objectman 02:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, thanks for asking. If you look at our discussion below in NPOV, the regular soldiers weren't paid because Kojong was favoring the Special Skills Forces. Read over that.
By Independence Party do you mean "Enlightenment Party", with Philip Jaisohn? And what do you mean, she cooperated with them? Their coup was in 1884, after the soldiers' rebellion.
You should provide detail for statement "But, she wasted the national budget for herself."
Rice that should have been paid to soldiers didn't "stagnate", which means sit in storage somewhere, for 13 months - it wasn't paid. It's not clear unless you have citation that this was Queen Min's doing. The "rice" came from Cholla province, the richest agricultural area, esepcially around Kimjae - but since it was July, it was probably barley, not rice, unless it was rice left from last fall's harvest. Would people store rice that long? It seems unlikely - too many hungry people.
Taewongun had been in exile in China, right? And the soldiers' rebellion brought him back into power because he helped them with access to weapons and so forth. So I'm confused about when Taewongung was captured again.
We're making good progress, here, Objectman - let's keep at it. -- Dan 03:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Queen Min depended for all worries on superstition, and solved them. She requested to China to accept that her son, who is 2yo, shall be next king. China answer. "We can not accept, because Yi's son is older." So, she offered a bribe of 20,000 ryang silvers to China. Objectman 04:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Dan, can you use Japanese? I have not capability of enough to use English. Especially, it is difficult for me to translate a historical word. Objectman 04:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, most Koreans back then and often even today will use fortune-tellers and astrologers. Is that what you mean by 'superstition'? Many Westerners use astrology also even today, so Queen Min was not special in that respect. She was typical of her times. I didn't know about China's comment about Yi's son being older. Where did you find that? If by "Yi" you mean Kojong's second partner, she was styled "kwi-in", 3rd rank concubine, and not of high enough rank to produce first heir to throne. -- Dan 04:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Your two phrases:
-- Dan 17:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
and I recommend also the discussion on this blog: http://populargusts.blogspot.com/2006/03/badly-defended-apologist-views.html there's a good intial article, some very interesting links, some fascinating photos, and the article is followed by some fiery discussion on the Japanese imperialist position vs. the Korean independence position. It's very educational. -- Dan 18:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I've listed this article on Wikipedia:Cleanup. There are several things that should be fixed:
There is a clear anti-Japanese bias in the article.
Please identify what anti-Japanese bias is present, so it can be neutralised. -- Caffelice 17:19, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A picture would be nice.
There are pictures available - I believe two paintings and a controversial photo - see the citation at the end of the article, [1] -- Dan 16:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, I don't quite follow what you mean by anti-Japanese bias. The Japanese really did have her assasinated since she attempted to normalize and strengthen ties with Russia, western nations.
The 'samurai' who are said to have assassinated Queen Min were as a class abolished by Imperial Decree well before 1895. How was it 'brilliance' in foreign affairs for her to court Russia and China, two other foreign powers with their own designs on Korea? I also find it doubtful that the Meiji Emperor of Japan personally 'viewed her as an obstacle'. This does not fit with what we generally know about Meiji and his government: the tendency in Japan of leaders to 'reign not rule'. I would want to see some documentary evidence to support such a conclusion. The article is stylistically awkward. I would not say that the article shows an 'anti-Japanese bias' as much as a pro-Queen Min bias.
The samurai mentioned in the article are the ones who were specially hired to threaten the Korean court. Meiji was also directly involved in the empress's assassination since he was the one who also forced Emperor Gojong to abdicate later on. Historical records all back up the article's conclusions. You can't argue against it becuase it's based on solid proof, despite what Japanese nationalists claim.
My point was that no such thing as 'samurai' existed at the time in question. Perhaps you should say 'former samurai' if that is indeed what they were. Or, just say 'assassins' as the page says currently. I don't doubt that terrible things were done in the name of the Meiji Emperor (cf. 'at the command of'), but saying he was directly involved in these decisions or in giving these orders, saying he was the individual who 'forced' the later abdication, goes against the weight of established knowledge of not only Meiji but also the Japanese imperial system. See the Wikipedia article on Meiji or the works of Hane, Reischauer, and just about any other established name in modern Japanese history.
Meiji Emperor considered her an obstacle before going on a "Nationalist! Nationalist!" routine. As you probably know, Japan had a constitution and a whole set of laws that determined what the emperor can do. All records from that time are stored and can be viewed at Japan's National Library. Give the exact date, the exact name of law or order, the exact chain of command from Meiji Emperor to those who actually committed, and any proof beside those by "nationalists" from Korea. Revth 04:06, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's exactly at times like these that I feel shame as a Japanese. Not only does Revth up there try to dispute the factual truth of this article, he tries to make it less critical of Japan. I've checked many Internet sources (all Korean, of course, since Japanese records cover up any relations between the Queen Min incident and the Japanese government), and although they do not give "give the exact date, the exact name of law or order, the exact chain of command from Meiji Emperor to those who actually committed," it's quite obvious, except for dumb Japanese historians, that the whole incident was schemed by Japan's imperial court and Japanese officials in Tokyo. While Meiji may have not been directly involved in the incident, it is evidently undisputable that he desired the icorporation of Korea as part of Japan. That's why he later requested to the Governer-general of Korea in 1910, after the annexation of Korea as part of Imperial Japan, to have all royal family members of the Joseon Dynasty be married into the Japanese imperial line (Note: this fact is clearly recorded, so do not dispute 'less you want be humiliated). He even made Sunjong, last emperor of Korea, marry a Japanese princess who was barren.
Ooops - that wasn't Sunjong - Sunjong married first one of Min clan, who died young, then Queen Yun - [ [2]] and it was the crown prince who was infertile, because of the poisoning in the "coffee plot". Sunjong was succeeded by his nephew, Yi Eun, [ [3]] who was married to a member of the Japanese royalty who was thought to be infertile, Yi Pangja. Turns out she wasn't, and had two children. Her autobiographical book "The World is One", is a fascinating story. -- Dan 16:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
And by the way, it is impossible to "give the exact date, the exact name of law or order, the exact chain of command from Meiji Emperor to those who actually committed," because this incident was done in top secret. I'm sure that Japanese officials in charge of Japan's government at the time weren't stupid enough to leave evidence behind, eh?
---
I find this sentence near the end of the article to be a bit odd: "She is the only empress enshrined in Jongmyo; all other females are queens." It is not incorrect, of course, but it is odd because it would seem (at least to me) to imply that there may have been other Korean empresses, but they weren't enshrined in Jongmyo. In fact, Empress Myeongseong was the only Korean empress in history, making the quoted sentence not only unnecessary but also possibly misleading.
Also, it is probably misleading to say that Empress Myeongseong was enshrined in Jongmyo, especially for Western readers who are not familiar with Jongmyo. Is it possible that some readers might understand "enshrined" to mean "buried"? After all, it is only her spirit (or ancestral) tablet (위패) that is enshrined in Jongmyo. As the article mentions, her body was burned and was never entombed. - Suho1004
--- No, I don't think there's any problem with the word "enshrined", as it does not equate "buried", and I think it's clear enough that she is not physically buried in Jongmyo.
However, the article mentions that the name Myeongseong means "bright and shiny star". Does it? The "Seong" here is not the same word as "star" to my knowledge, or is there some hidden etymology at play? Uly 19:18, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
---
I just wonder about the obviously completely lacking security at the palace - weren't there any guards ? Is there more information to shed light on this ? Besides that i dont see anti-japanese bias in the article. The change to "empress of Korea" also makes IMHO sense.
Chris
---
I also think that this article is very pro-Queen Min and anti-Japanese. I think this article needs to have it said that Queen Min was appointed the position because her husband was too friendly with the Japanese. He was replaced by Queen Min because of her Neo-Confucian values and ultimately turned the country inwards at a time of change. She also caused the Sino-Japanese War by sending Qing troops to Korea in 1894 after the Tonghak Rebellion which was a violation of the Convention of Tientsin of 1885. She was a reactionary that ultimately help lead to the colonization of Korea. She was a patriot in some regards, but in truth Queen Min was a reactionary whos orthodox thinking led to her and her country's downfall.
Micah
To say she was a reactionary does not jibe with her bringing western technology, nor her willingness to expand relations with Russia and China. -- Dan 16:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Queen Min was not exactly a patriot. Quite frankly, the Koreans hated her at that time, and she cared more about her political power. The Japanese killed her because she was trying to create alliance with Russia. Although this could have prevented them from forcefully annexing Korea, she did this so she could have all the power. This article never mentions the obvious flaws of Queen Min, but there is no way to justify this gory assasination of Queen Min. And her husband was not friendly with the Japanese. He would have stopped Japan from annexing Korea if he actually had a choice! This article is a bit pro-Queen Min, but is it possible to justify the fact that the Japanese had murdered an empress of Korea? Iloveayu 00:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Saying "the Koreans hated her" is way too sweeping, and not something that would hold up under serious scrutiny. The view that the dynasty was corrupt and incompetent and unpopular was promoted heavily by the Japanese at the time to people such as Theodore Roosevelt as a rationale for taking over the country. The Japanese killed her because she stood in the way of their takeover. SHe did indeed play politics, but she was in rough company - the Taewongun in paritcular. While her husband was not friendly with the Japanease and stood against the takeover, he was by no means an absolute ruler. The clan that caused particular problems was the Andong Kim family, who were enemies of both the Min and Cho families, and did what they could to undermine them. -- Dan 16:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The date is October 8 in the gregorian calendar. "August 20" is in Chinese calendar. When writing the date in east asian history, you have to check that the calendar system. -- ChongDae 16:18, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Isn't it interesting to observe that the people who are claiming anti-Japanese bias here, who have presumably only learned from the heavily-edited Japanese history books, seem to speak with an air of denial that is probably not unlike that of people who have lived under a third-world dictatorship, like North Korea? It's surprising that for such a technologically advanced country like Japan, their education of history is about what you would expect would come from a Stalinist state that is concerned with hiding the truth and cleaning-up history. -- Atrahasis 02:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see how there is an "anti-Japanese" bias. The article is factually accurate. The unrefuted fact is that Japan's imperial government (either with or without the explicit instruction of the Japanese Emperor) did cause the assassination of a foreign head of state, cannot be in itself deemed to be "anti-Japanese". With respect to the suggestion that soliciting Chinese and Russian assistance was of no difference - let's get something straight - there is a BIG difference between being invited into Korea by the Empress, and seeking to annex the pennisula through underhanded methods like assassination. Example, the Kuwaiti's INVITED the Americans and the rest of the allies into Kuwait after they were threatened/invaded by the Iraqis in 1991, the Soviet Union INVADED Afganistan in 1978 without provocation... Perhaps a distinction which is lost on our Japanese friends... --UNSIGNED
Coming from outside either of the Koreas or Japan, I think that the first thing that must be done is for the article to be expanded. Of course she was killed, but at the moment there is a bias in as far as the page seems to focus so much on her death. If this really is a tribute then her accomplishments should be discussed in detail. I am sure that there is more than enough material available on this. However if the entire point of this article is to say that she was killed by the Japanese, then her memory is being just being used for nationalistic reasons - which is not fair on her. So I would like to ask historians on wiki with knowledge of this area to get to work on this. If we can tidy this up then perhaps we can remove the POV tag.
Also I checked the sources and couldn't find anything to suggest that the Emperor Meiji had it in for her. Thus I will re-word the allegation to make it more ambiguous, as I am sure that some people did see her as a "problem". Unless someone has the Emperor Meiji's diary that says "I wanted her gone", then perhaps it's best not to speculate so much.
On a side-note, I thought that the whole thing needs to be moved - the "Korea" bit is not necessary. How many Empress Myeongseongs were there?
please clarify what you mean by "the "Korea" bit is not necessary." It's kinda hard for me to understand what you mean. And there was only one Empress Myeongseong if you really wanted to know. 68.46.133.206 03:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Please can someone clarify the statements "Many Japanese found her and obstacle" and "The Japanese"? This suggests that the feelings towards her as representative of the the Japanese nation and is why this article appears biased. If the Japanese government found her an obstacle please state this.
Can we have a vote or some sort to decide whether this is really NPOV or not? That tag in front of the article can't stay there forever. mirageinred 21:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
She was a waster. It is a cause of the coup d'etat in 1882 that she did not pay pay. It is not neutrality that conceals these fact by intention. "Because Japan is bad, she is a good." This is wrong interpretations. The assassination is not vindicable. But, the assassination doesn't become a reason to praise her, too. This article beautifies her. I object to the neutrality of this article. 220.150.117.118 18 May 2006
Okay, I'm going to call both of you on those statements "she was a waster" and "it was really her power she cared about". I'd need to see citations to support her wastefulness for the first statement, and the second statement, mirageinred, is mind-reading. You cannot know what she really cared about. You're both trying to reduce a complex woman of mixed motives to something more simple.
Well, all the books I read about Korea and Queen Min never portrayed her as a patriot. The Korean TV drama based on her have been criticized by some (being Koreans) for allegedly making her look like a tragic martyr who really tried to go the distance to make Korea prosperous. And by the way if you lived in Korea when Park Chung-hee ruled, whoa. Didn't he become a dictator during the 60s to 70s? By "his daughter" do you mean that female politician in Korea? I don't know if she was his only child. mirageinred 01:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Chun Doo Hwan was way worse than Park Chung-hee, although I'm not too fond of him either. What do you mean by "despair"? Severe poverty in Korea maybe? Well going back to the original topic, I still wonder whether her portrayal of the Queen was accurate. She was a very complex figure after all. With historical documents' accuracy sometimes being questioned, it's really difficult to accurately portray her. mirageinred 01:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
regarding the title of this article, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean)#Names of monarchs would indicate this article should be called "Myeongseong of Korea." of course there can be exceptions for especially well-known individuals, but there's also a case to be made for consistency too. i don't feel strongly either way, just fyi. Appleby 08:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
i wish we could get the few korean editors to focus on this problem. it needs to be thought out much more than i've had time to do so far, but it's my understanding that "of korea" is not to distinguish the names from europeans, but to distinguish similar or same names among different kingdoms/periods of korea. "of korea" specifies that it is the korean empire period. being consistent helps editors link to articles habitually, without having to search for actual titles every time some monarch should be wikified. that's also the reason "king" "emperor" "maripgan" "queen" "empress" etc is left out. Appleby 17:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
gojong didn't investiture korea as "the great han empire" until after the sino-japanese war... also, maybe a more accurate title would be "myeongseong of joseon?" "myeongseong of yi joseon" would actually be more accurate to differentiate yi joseon from old joseon. Umetaro 22:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
haha 'yi' joseon is a title made up by the japanese during the WW2 its proper to call it just 'Joseon' and old Joseon as Go-Joseon man, i can see a lot of 'wapanese' on wikipedia! haha 202.37.68.150 16:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
it is true even in korea 'Joseon' is sometimes referred to as 'yi Joseon', but then again, it is influenced by japanese colonial rule period. it is proper to use 'Joseon', it is just like some older Koreans use japanese loan words such as tamanegi for onions (instead yangpa in korean), takuan for pickled radish (danmuji in korean), kopu for cup (just keop or cup in korean), toraku for truck (in korean Treok) etc and visviva, you say it was published in 1983? its VERY out of date, there has been several reforms in korea over spelling of names, proper definitions etc back in 80's, koreans used to call salad as sarada, now it is known as simply salad 139.80.123.40 15:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm protecting this briefly; I'd like to see some talking here rather than just going back and forth reversions. Is this vandalism or a dispute? -- Spangineer [es] (háblame) 18:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I wrote my opinion at "A neutral POV". It is clear that this article is not neutrality. 220.150.117.118 23 May 2006
I know she is thought heroines in Korea. But, it is a novel. If this item has treated the novel, I admit neutrality. I don't think the inclination to Japan about her bad side. 220.150.117.118 23 May 2006
The South Korean wrote the article based on the report of novelist Kim Jinmyeong. [4] Kim used Ishizuka-Report for the source in this report. http://www.kimsoft.com/2002/eijoh1.jpg]
Content of Ishizuka-Report.
入城シ実行ノ任ニ当シテ守備隊ノ将校兵卒ノ四門警衛止マタズ門内ニ侵入セリ殊ニ弥次馬達ハ深ク内部ニ入込ミ王妃ヲ引キ出シ二三ヶ処刃傷ニ及ヒ且ツ裸体トシ局部検査(可笑又可怒)ヲ為シ最後ニ油ヲ注キ焼失セル等誠ニ之ヲ筆ニスルニ忍ヒサルナリ其他宮内大臣ハ頗ル残酷ナル方法ヲ以テ殺害シタリト云フ右ハ士官モ(日本 国立 国会図書館憲政資料室蔵 憲政史編纂会収集文書 外交問題主要事件資料 546 朝鮮王妃事件 関係資料 546-1 標題)
The people in Korea enter the court, and made empress's corpse a stark-naked and jeered. Oil was poured and her corpse was burnt. It was a cruel scene.
A Japanese assassin raped. This is an episode of novel "Crown Princess kidnapping of Japan (2001)" that Kim wrote.-- Kamosuke 04:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
But I think Kim's is a famous homepage as anti-Japanese propaganda.
Hi. Mr.(Ms) Appleby! I read WP:V and The policy 1 'Articles should contain only material that has been published by' reputable sources. Are Kim's reputable sources? :-) Kamosuke showed more reputable and credibility sources. They are smoking-gun evidences. -- Lulusuke 08:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Lulusuke 08:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
See the newspaper. http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200501/200501130035.html
It's really difficult to determine what is genuine or fake. I can't and shouldn't make a statement about such matters. I came across File:Empress Myeongseong3.jpg also from a Japanese book 《朝鮮風俗風景写真帖》 though it was published in 1911 (明治44年). I thought the woman looked similar to the "court lady" photo but there might be a problem with both. In the KBS news clip, an expert on photography had guessed the "court lady" photo to have been taken around 1910 or 1920. This new photo was in the 1911 issue of the Japanese photobook. Both dates are at least a decade after Queen Min's death. If they are not the same person, then this new photo should have used a caption "明成皇后陛下" (Her majesty empress Myeongseong) and not "李王妃殿下" (Her highness Princess Yi). OK, Dan just mentioned this new photo looks like Queen Yun. I got the photo from this blog page which put this picture as Queen Min. — Nrtm81 20:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
There's certainly variety in their appearances, isn't there? I think the original source for the photos you saw on the blog, Nrtm81, is probably here [5]. I saw the news account - I wonder what made the expert think the photo dates from 1910 or later? This is a fun puzzle, I must admit. Maybe we should put up some photos of modern Min women who are descendants of Queen Min's father. My mother-in-law, who was such a person, claimed that Queen Min was "moot sengyesa" (unattractive). Since my mother-in-law wasn't born until 1914, I don't know how she knew this, but there it is ;-) -- Dan 20:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I've already asked Nrtm81, but anyone else who's reading this, see if you can interpret the date on
, most likely using the Japanese calendar but no guarantee. It's in the lower left corner and clipped off a bit. --
Dan 21:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Some things just can't be totally English and that is an online encyclopedia.
If everything has to be in English, then do you call Admiral Yi Sun-shin something of English translation of the Chinese characters?
What would you call Hangul? Would you call it "Han-people's writing"? (that is the Chinese characters' meaning) What about Sushi? It's an English word. Just because "Eul-mi Sa-byun" sounds foreign does not mean that it shouldn't be used. Additionally, this is an article about a Korean person. Why are Japanese Wikipedians here? A Korean biography should have Korean words unchanged. I don't want any interference. Therefore, I ask for permission (which I see no need of) to change the title of the section concerning her death to "Eul-mi Sa-byun". ( Wikimachine 14:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC))
This page is about the last Empress of Joseon, who in the eyes of many Koreans is a national heroine. She not only serves simply as a patriotic symbol of Korean independance and struggle against the atrocious Japanese colonoism, but she also serves a personal saint towards those that have struggled to find a voice in a world where people's leaderships are taken for granted. In the original text, it said she could be compared to Joan of Arc, a French national heroine that was savagely comdemned to death by the English. Empress Myeongseong is not any more different, having been brutally assinated and raped by Japanese assasins commissioned by the Japanese Imperial Government.
To even DARE saying that this article will be written based on information of Japanese textbooks is an insult, a slap in the face to any true historian/scholar/history lover.
Yes, our duty for Wiki is to have a fairly neutral viewpoint. And I will do my best to write a neutral viewpoint of the Empress but respect must be shown. Controversies about the accuracies and BIASED attitude of Japanese textbooks is infamously known throughout the world. Massive demonstrations and protests have been held in Japan, S. Korea, and China over the issue of the completely distortion of truth in Japanese history textbooks concerning the colonial period, the Rape of Nanjing, and the Empress Myeongseong. These textbooks do not even begin to acknowledge the atrocities the Japanese committed. The Asian Holocaust has been largely ignored due to the massive cover up of the Japanese. Don't you dare even think of writing this article based upon flimsy textbooks that have caused anger throughout the world. It's an issue that has been raised in international debates around the world.
This article, I repeat, will be NEUTRAL. However, how neutral can any article, even at Wiki, be? George Washington is a national hero of the U.S. but do you see the British trying to distort the truth on his military victories? Napoleon was a powerful Emperor and at times cruel but do you see the British trying to distort the truth on his strong capabilites and charm as a general in the battlefield? Do you see Germans trying to cover up the horror of Hitler?
It's time for the Japanese government to acknowledge their mistakes in the past. People MAKE mistakes. It's fine. It's called civilization. All nations committ a horror at one point in their history. I am in NO WAY justifying what ANY nation does that is at an international criminal offense level such as Germany and Japan during WWII, but I am saying that forgiveness must be shown by the victims and the afflicters must show remorse.
So be content and don't fear. Once again, this article will be AS neutral as it can be. But don't you dare write an article based upon Japanese textbooks. I will personally bring this up with the Wikipedia Adminastration if done so. If you think the previous article was biased and anti-Japanese, what makes you think you can write an article that is anti-Korean on a Korean figure from the notorious Japanese textbooks, internationally known to distort the truth?
Think again.
- the//powederoom//
This article is about Queen Min. We should not relate her appraisal with Japanese control. If one side is wrong, the other side is not necessarily right. We should not beautify Queen Min.
Appleby - while your efforts to clean up Objectman's submissions are well-intentioned, I really think Thepowderoom's submission is much better than what went before, and we should ask 1) Thepowderoom to put that version back up. 2) objectman to please not pull it but ask questions here about concerns. objectman, if that's your comment above about beatifying Queen Min, I really don't think that's what's going on. You people who are working from Japanese histories need to be aware of the distortions that are often included. Don't get defensive about it or claim to have sole possession of the truth; the distortions are a major problem with American history texts as well. --
Dan 17:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Seeing that this is an article on the life of Empress Myeongseong, I believe that anything important that occured in her reign should be included. Including her relations with the Japanese. It's not like some covered up mystery we're showing to the world all of a sudden. Her relations have been well documented by Korean and Western historians alike in recent years and just because history has shown that the relationship was indeed manipulative by the Japanese doesn't mean anyone is beautifing her. A comprehensive study on the relations between Korea and Japan was even published that I have read and am using currently to write this article. This article has numerous credible sources, from Korean historians (both, books written in English and books written in Korean) and Western historians. - the powderoom
Honestly objectman, don't try to piss me off. Secondly, don't want to be rude but you need to write better English. I could hardly understand your point other than the main theme of "It's wrong. It's biased." The truth is, she's a Korean historical figure. You saying Western history records of her day said her politics were wrong. Western history records back then considered Japan as a barbarous nation unfit for Western nations to do business with. They accused of the Chinese aristocracy of excessive incest, beastiality, etc. Western history records back then are almost as unreliable as you. What I wrote is not what I personally believe. If I was going to write about her based on my beliefs, I would have made her sound like a complete saint, no mistakes ever made and deny there's a controversy. The records I have used are incredibly reliable sources, all of them having been published in the last fifteen years. One of them was published by Harvard University Press as well. So please do your research first before criticizing. Also, please, share you sources on these mysterious Western history records you have mentioned... - the powederoom
Objectman, if you have a translated version of the trial records against the assassins of Myeongseong, share them. Please, go right ahead. The validility of those trial records, however, came under question, by the international community, not the Koreans originally. Look at it rationally. One day you have an Empress who walks, talks, and breaths. The next day, she's no where in sight and hundreds of Japanese legations troops are surrounding private quarters of Korean royalty. She doesn't show up for days and a palace normally has hundreds of staff members to run the place. Meaning there were defineatly people who saw the incident. Missing Empress? People saw people dragging people from the Empress' chambers? And killed them? Oh my.. no.. it can't be. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Why would you ever think the Empress was assassinated? Oh please. That's so biased. Just because there were eyewitness accounts, detailed reports by the assassins themselves that were given to the Japanese Minister to Seoul about the assassination, and just because the Empress has gone missing for like weeks doesn't mean at all she may have been killed. Not to mention the ravagd chambers of the Empress and burnt sections of her apartments. That's just out of the question. That's so anti-Japanese to admit a fact. Facts that are negative associated with the Japanese are all biased. Biased!
The trial was conducted and all assassins associated with the murder were tried in Japan. Not even in Joseon where the crime occurred but by the Japanese in a Japanese court. Yes, they are Japanese citizens but if the crim happened to be associated with a head of state of another country on their soul, normally it shouldn't be the responsibility of the home country of the assassins to try them. That in itself was biased, objectman. Modern international laws state that if you committ a crime in a foreign country, you are under the foreign country's laws and you are entitled to be tried in their court, not at your home country's. And yes objectman, especially if you kill the head of state.
Another thing is, there were non-Korean non-Japanese eyewitness acounts of the assassination. A Russian diplomat saw the whole thing and was so shocked, didn't know what to do. The next day, he rushed to the Russian embassy to inform his superiors but his superiors told him they had found out that morning. But confrontation between the Russians and the Japanese was not something they were looking for. They hushed him not to tell people of his version of events but in the end, he did. At the 1907 Hague Peace Conference. And ta-da! Soon afterwards, the international community demanded for a trial. A trial took place, but I've gone this over. It took place in Japan, etc.
Another problem with all of these assassins being innocent is that recently, descendants of some of the main assassins came to the tomb of Myeongseong in South Korea and publicly apologized for the assassination their ancestors had committed. Descendants themselves have admitted their crime. But the crime is a known fact throughout the world, but something that some Japanese just can't accept. Like also how they simply cannot accept the facts that they indeed committ genocide, they did indeed used comfort women, they did indeed use germ experimentation, and they did committ atrocoties. Those trial records you claim to have, show them.
One more thing. Miura Goro, the Japanese Minister to Seoul, published the official Japanese version of events fifteen years after the trial, of the assassination of Myeongseong. Even the man who ordered for the assassination admits they killed the Empress. So why can't you? It's like defending a rapist who admitted that they raped your relative. Why in the world would you do that? The evidence is there. Testimony from the supposed assasin says "We killed her." But yet you still turn a blind eye? That's not pride for one's country, that's simply stupidity.
Oh and by the way, some things can't be neutral objectman. Can you neutrally tell the events of WWII and Adolf Hitler? Can you in any shape and form tell the horror stories of the concentration camps "neutrally"? "Oh yes, and there were these homes for the Jews established in Eastern Europe. They killed them but it wasn't out of hate. But it wasn't out of love." When events in history show themselves as testimonys of evil, neutrality does not exist anymore. At that point, its a matter of morales and the sense of whats wrong and whats right. You can't neutrally discuss the genocide of Hitler and you can't neutrally discuss the genocide of the Japanese. You can't neutrally discuss the Rape of Nanjing and you can't neutrally discuss Southern slavery in the U.S. You can't neutrally discuss the burning of Joan of Arc and you can't neutrally discuss the assassination of Myeongseong. You can't neutrally discuss the brutal murders of the Romanovs. And if you're telling me right now that you can't admit historical facts about notorious events in world history, then be ashamed to even call yourself human. Because it's innate within all of us to sense whats right and whats wrong. Pride for one's country shouldn't overshadow the natural emotions and sense of judgement we are all born with in this world. After all, pride is an artificial emotion created by ourselves but to feel emotions of sad and happiness are gifts from something beyond understanding.
-- Thepowederoom 11:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
If my English is too difficult, you shouldn't be editing articles here. It's as simple as that. A certain fluency in the language should be achieved before attempting to write an entire article on someone's life history. Language is key in writing and you clearly do not have the basic capabilities in the English language to do so. And what are you talking about? Korean criminals? What are you referring too? I don't understand a thing you say and you always end every one of your not understandable arguments with Koreans distorting history or Koreans being biased. That seems to me the only thing you can properly communicate. And I simply love how you ignored my entire response to you and all you can supply with me is random rubbish about Korean criminals. Yes, ok. Korean criminals. Established that, now what? What are you trying to say? It's like I'm arguing with a wall. What's the use? I've already reported you, I just have to wait. The only thing I'm doing now is reverting the article back because you keep changing it.
This would be like me going to the Spanish wiki and trying to write an entire article about the Reconquista in Spanish, trying to justify the killings and extortion of thousands of Jews and Muslims. It just wouldn't work. -- Thepowederoom 12:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh and one more thing. I am NOT Korean. I'm a French political science student on an exchange program from the Science Po here in Los Angeles. I'm a completely non-Korean, non-Japanese person. You happen to be Japanese. I believe that in this case, I am the "neutral" aspect, no? The thing you've been arguing for, for a very long time? -- Thepowederoom 12:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are loading your own version. Your comment "the right knowledge" is revealing. It implies you have "the right knowledge" while myself and thepowderoom and others do not. Either work together with us or stop. --
Dan 16:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
...it is undeniable that his version is stylistically superior to the other.
I mean, things like
would disgrace a high-school essay. They have absolutely no place in an encyclopedia article. It doesn't even make sense: is the writer really intending to say that these people were only human "at one point in their lives"?
It seems to me that the editors need to stop this pointless revert war, stop the futile personal attacks, and work on actually writing a decent article here. And note that a "decent article" will be sourced from both Korean and Japanese histories. That's what NPOV means, isn't it? 81.178.65.121 15:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm working with Thepowderoom on the grammar, spelling, phrasing and the like. I think your critique of his style has some merit but is overstated, especially in comparison with Objectman's style, which needed much more editting to be comprehensible, let alone to be somewhat balanced. On the balance, I prefer working with thepowderoom's material. -- Dan 15:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Here are the various arguments presented, and I'll clarify who's winning on each argument.
( Wikimachine 18:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC))
To Dan.
You just have to prove.
I used not Japanese sources but Korean and American sources "in those days".
It is prejudice without a basis. Although it cannot explain in detail, the distortion of present South Korea is almost severe. However, we cannot argue, if you assert one-sided view. Your attitude is very ugly.
Where was the source? He does not show it.
The Russian eyewitnesses testified that Koreans had assassinated. For example, Karneyev(Russia General Staff Office lieutenant colonel) said, "Daewongun had related deeply to assassination of Min.
Please prove.
I have admitted Japanese participated. However, they only participated. it is not neutrality to hide intentionally the fact that Koreans participated in assassination, and to emphasize only that she was assassinated to Japanese. 218.248.20.20 07:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Minor point of clarification - most of the comments you're responding to are not mine, they're Wikimachine. I signed jsut that one line about needing good English skills to argue effectively. A point I believe you've just proven. --
Dan 20:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
ok, now that objectman has been blocked temporarily, editors interested in the topic can get serious about improving it. i'm no expert in this area, so i hope others take up the work.
but i just want to remind everyone, especially relatively new editors, that the article must be built from reliable sources, not personal knowledge or original research. for each potentially controversial sentence (think, would objectman dispute this wording?), try to provide a reputable, preferrably engligh-language, source of your information. this will help prevent later revert wars. a non-negotiable rule at wikipedia is WP:NPOV, which can be satisfied by sticking to reliable unbiased sources.
also, please note that this is not a general background article on korean history during the period. there are other specific articles that could really use some of the details now in this article. this article should be a biography of the subject, with a short pointers to the broader context.
i will be editing mainly for copyediting, flow, and brevity, but i hope others continue the work that was so rudely interrupted. Appleby 19:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, sir or madam - I'm happy to get back to work on this. --
Dan 20:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
There was some more detail on this insurrection from earlier revisions that some of our Japanese viewpoint editors thought important and that I'm willing to consider including since I can source it to Eckhardt. This includes the back pay, what Min Kyumho's position was, that sort of thing. Interest? -- Dan 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, Appleby, here's the older material. It's actually from the discussion page; I don't think it ever got into the actual article. Opinions, please, everyone:
i responded on that page, but wikipedia image policy has a steep learning curve, i've found. start with WP:IUP. Appleby 23:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
While it's good to see that the article has an extensive references section, it would be very helpful if the various claims within the body of the text could be backed up with individual citations specifically identifying the parts of those books which are being used as sources for each section. This would enable readers to verify facts for themselves more easily. — Haeleth Talk 20:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
This text has an important mistake.
This editor is writing his daydream without so much as consulting a source. 216.11.0.254 23:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph is not neutral, and it should be deleted.
This editor has written his conjecture without a reliable source. 216.11.0.254 00:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a too much modern viewpoint. Even Ann Jung-geun who killed Hitrobumi Ito was pleased with the victory of Japan in the Russo-Japanese War.
) 216.11.0.254 00:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to refute every single one of your claims. Hope you don't mind.
1) You're right, the Japanese government does not create their own textbooks. However, Japan's Ministry of Education must approve all textbooks used for all courses, including history. They create the standard curriculum from elementary to high school. On April 5, 2005, the Ministry of Education approved a revised version of their history textbooks directed towards junior high and high school that completely ignores huge segments of their history during WWII including comfort women, genocide, germ warfare, invasion of Joseon, invasion of China, etc. It has caused international controversy as it also whitewashes Japan's militaristic past. It has been vehemently condemned by people from all Asian countries that have been victimized by Japan.
2) Exactly, they don't mention Min whatsoever. Min had a major role in Asian history. And yes, she was the last hope against Japanese invasion to the Asian mainland. More details on this later but to also refute your argument that Korean textbooks do not mention Saigo Takamori is a complete lie. He is mentioned to have been one of the key figures in the Meiji Restoration and also the one who wanted to go to war with Joseon immediatly for not having recognized Meiji's new role as an Emperor with actual power. The Meiji Restoration completely gave the Emperor power he did not have before. Japan was not a unified nation before him. Shoguns ran the government and numerous people violently battled to become the shogun. The Emperor was weak and was simply a symbolic figurehead that did not play any role whatsoever in the politics of Japan. The Meiji Restoration completely changed that. So yes, Korean textbooks do mention him because he did play a role in Asian history. But nothing as big as Min who was indeed one of the last hopes before Japanese imperialistic invasion of Asia.
3) What do you mean? If masses of people are shocked and don't agree with something that is officially sanctioned by someone else, it's considered controversy. It's not a matter of opinion when it comes to correctly telling history. In the end, what needs to be said is that the textbooks are wrong, biased sources that are not reliable. If you don't think telling the truth is controversial, then you don't have a good sense of what's right and what's wrong.
1) COMPLETE lie. I recently finished writing the Myeongseong bio. Read the endings on the invasion of Joseon. The Emperor after the Meiji Restoration had considerable amounts of power. Yes, there were men who ran the government but they were sanctioned by him and all major orders were done by the Emperor, including issuing war. The other issue that Hirohito was not aware of Pearl Harbor is such complete B.S. made by the Japanese government. Please, think logically. Such large orders against independant nations cannot go by without official approval from the very top. Japan has also consitently tried to invade Korea. Korea is the gateway to Asia. Controlling the peninsula enables control over Asian mainland. Read history to find out all the numerous attempts. I'm not a history book thats going to recall every freaking event. There are simply too many that record Japan's imperialistic ambitions.
2) Queen Min was a threat from day one. She never was interested in securing Japan as the sole nation that would aid Joseon. She played Joseon off in a game of politics and Japanese intentions then were to invade Joseon. Without invading the Korean peninsula, it would be nearly impossible to invade the Asian mainland. Without a secure base that's other than the targeted nation, it would have been extremely difficult for Japant to invade the massive Chinese Empire. And with Min constantly blockading the Japanese, it became a frusteration for them. Min was also a skilled diplomat and secured Western powers. Japan was becoming furious at the prospect that they were losing in the war of securing Joseon and her death was simply the only way to achieve completely dominance over the kingdom. The Russians were just one of many incidents that Japan recognized were becoming problems.
3) Lee Wan-young is a controversial figure. One has to remember that he was one of the Progressives. The Progressives were supported by Min, up to a point. They were lated defeated with the aid of the Chinese by Min and the leaders of the Progressives fled to Japan. Japan protected them and used them to get connections within Joseon. The July 23rd invasion of the royal palaces by the Japanese forced the King under death to sign numerous documents ensuring Japan's right into running Joseon's government. By force, by military force, Japan was already in control of the government that day after threatning the King. Otori, the Japanese Minister to Seoul, replaced the current prime minister who was a relative of the Queen with Lee Wan-young, the disgraced Progressive who was banished from Joseon after causing war against the Chinese. He was a puppet used by the Japanese to gain independant proposal of annexation. So yes, technically, Joseon gave herself up. But under what circumstances? And by who? The legit King and Queen and by the legit Prime Minister or a puppet installed by the Japanese? The Japanese who invaded Joseon and paraded it as an independant nation when really it wasn't? Far as I'm concerned, the author who wrote that article said that Lee Wan-young was not born a Japanese sympathizer, but he defineatly became one at the prospect of control and power in his home nation that exiled him.
4) Ahn Jeun-geun was of course happy that Japan won! Most Koreans were, but that doesn't mean that the Koreans were supporting Japan. He supported neither countries but for him, either country getting beat was good for Joseon. He didn't believe Joseon needed either Japanese or Russian aid, but rather the U.S. So when the Japanese beat the Russians, eliminating Russian influence in Joseon, he was of course pleased. The Japanese then became a problem to be dealt with and the majority of Koreans hoped another Western power would take the Japanese on and defeat them. Also, it is true historical opinions change with time. Our modern perception of Marie Antoinette is quite different from the hate-filled perception during the French Revolution. Perceptions change, and normally for a better, non-biased, much clearer view.
So, please. Bring them on. Any more to refute? -- Thepowederoom 03:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
216.11.0.254 04:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
many Koreans believe that Emperor Meiji secretly ordered Miura Goro, the Japanese minister to Korea, to commission assassins to murder the Empress.
The Japanese Emperor did not participate in politics. Therefore, it can not think that Emperor gave a command. It is malignant impression operation to mention this text. This paragraph has to be deleted no matter how truly many Koreans think so. 216.11.0.254 04:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Umm you seriously don't read everything do you? I'm not going to waste my time refuting that one. That was already refuted in the answers I have you earlier. It's your laziness and your error not to read what someone writes you. If you're going to take the time to try to disprove something, read the other persons side thoroughly.
-- Thepowederoom 04:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I finished writing the biography today which took some time. It covered her Personal Life (Early and Late), International Rivalries, Donghak Uprising, Sino-Japanese War, the Kato Reforms, and her assassination. However, my computer decided to be just completely mean and shut down on me. I lost all of it except for a page of sources I wrote to citate everything in the bio so far which is a good thing. But I was still upset and fuming for awhile. It just took a lot of time to read all the sources and write it out.
It's going to take me awhile to finish this again and I can't spend a lot of time tommorow. I will get it done soon though.
-- Thepowederoom 04:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, thepowderoom. I'll watch for it. Bummer about the loss. Japanese kid from Oakland Schools ISPN, put a lid on it. -- Dan 15:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Empress Myeongseong/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Class B?
Exaggerated praise. There is no evidence based on first resources.-- Lulusuke 04:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 04:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Does my description have misconception? (Not thinking the mistake of grammar)
Objectman 02:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, thanks for asking. If you look at our discussion below in NPOV, the regular soldiers weren't paid because Kojong was favoring the Special Skills Forces. Read over that.
By Independence Party do you mean "Enlightenment Party", with Philip Jaisohn? And what do you mean, she cooperated with them? Their coup was in 1884, after the soldiers' rebellion.
You should provide detail for statement "But, she wasted the national budget for herself."
Rice that should have been paid to soldiers didn't "stagnate", which means sit in storage somewhere, for 13 months - it wasn't paid. It's not clear unless you have citation that this was Queen Min's doing. The "rice" came from Cholla province, the richest agricultural area, esepcially around Kimjae - but since it was July, it was probably barley, not rice, unless it was rice left from last fall's harvest. Would people store rice that long? It seems unlikely - too many hungry people.
Taewongun had been in exile in China, right? And the soldiers' rebellion brought him back into power because he helped them with access to weapons and so forth. So I'm confused about when Taewongung was captured again.
We're making good progress, here, Objectman - let's keep at it. -- Dan 03:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Queen Min depended for all worries on superstition, and solved them. She requested to China to accept that her son, who is 2yo, shall be next king. China answer. "We can not accept, because Yi's son is older." So, she offered a bribe of 20,000 ryang silvers to China. Objectman 04:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Dan, can you use Japanese? I have not capability of enough to use English. Especially, it is difficult for me to translate a historical word. Objectman 04:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, most Koreans back then and often even today will use fortune-tellers and astrologers. Is that what you mean by 'superstition'? Many Westerners use astrology also even today, so Queen Min was not special in that respect. She was typical of her times. I didn't know about China's comment about Yi's son being older. Where did you find that? If by "Yi" you mean Kojong's second partner, she was styled "kwi-in", 3rd rank concubine, and not of high enough rank to produce first heir to throne. -- Dan 04:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Your two phrases:
-- Dan 17:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
and I recommend also the discussion on this blog: http://populargusts.blogspot.com/2006/03/badly-defended-apologist-views.html there's a good intial article, some very interesting links, some fascinating photos, and the article is followed by some fiery discussion on the Japanese imperialist position vs. the Korean independence position. It's very educational. -- Dan 18:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I've listed this article on Wikipedia:Cleanup. There are several things that should be fixed:
There is a clear anti-Japanese bias in the article.
Please identify what anti-Japanese bias is present, so it can be neutralised. -- Caffelice 17:19, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
A picture would be nice.
There are pictures available - I believe two paintings and a controversial photo - see the citation at the end of the article, [1] -- Dan 16:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, I don't quite follow what you mean by anti-Japanese bias. The Japanese really did have her assasinated since she attempted to normalize and strengthen ties with Russia, western nations.
The 'samurai' who are said to have assassinated Queen Min were as a class abolished by Imperial Decree well before 1895. How was it 'brilliance' in foreign affairs for her to court Russia and China, two other foreign powers with their own designs on Korea? I also find it doubtful that the Meiji Emperor of Japan personally 'viewed her as an obstacle'. This does not fit with what we generally know about Meiji and his government: the tendency in Japan of leaders to 'reign not rule'. I would want to see some documentary evidence to support such a conclusion. The article is stylistically awkward. I would not say that the article shows an 'anti-Japanese bias' as much as a pro-Queen Min bias.
The samurai mentioned in the article are the ones who were specially hired to threaten the Korean court. Meiji was also directly involved in the empress's assassination since he was the one who also forced Emperor Gojong to abdicate later on. Historical records all back up the article's conclusions. You can't argue against it becuase it's based on solid proof, despite what Japanese nationalists claim.
My point was that no such thing as 'samurai' existed at the time in question. Perhaps you should say 'former samurai' if that is indeed what they were. Or, just say 'assassins' as the page says currently. I don't doubt that terrible things were done in the name of the Meiji Emperor (cf. 'at the command of'), but saying he was directly involved in these decisions or in giving these orders, saying he was the individual who 'forced' the later abdication, goes against the weight of established knowledge of not only Meiji but also the Japanese imperial system. See the Wikipedia article on Meiji or the works of Hane, Reischauer, and just about any other established name in modern Japanese history.
Meiji Emperor considered her an obstacle before going on a "Nationalist! Nationalist!" routine. As you probably know, Japan had a constitution and a whole set of laws that determined what the emperor can do. All records from that time are stored and can be viewed at Japan's National Library. Give the exact date, the exact name of law or order, the exact chain of command from Meiji Emperor to those who actually committed, and any proof beside those by "nationalists" from Korea. Revth 04:06, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's exactly at times like these that I feel shame as a Japanese. Not only does Revth up there try to dispute the factual truth of this article, he tries to make it less critical of Japan. I've checked many Internet sources (all Korean, of course, since Japanese records cover up any relations between the Queen Min incident and the Japanese government), and although they do not give "give the exact date, the exact name of law or order, the exact chain of command from Meiji Emperor to those who actually committed," it's quite obvious, except for dumb Japanese historians, that the whole incident was schemed by Japan's imperial court and Japanese officials in Tokyo. While Meiji may have not been directly involved in the incident, it is evidently undisputable that he desired the icorporation of Korea as part of Japan. That's why he later requested to the Governer-general of Korea in 1910, after the annexation of Korea as part of Imperial Japan, to have all royal family members of the Joseon Dynasty be married into the Japanese imperial line (Note: this fact is clearly recorded, so do not dispute 'less you want be humiliated). He even made Sunjong, last emperor of Korea, marry a Japanese princess who was barren.
Ooops - that wasn't Sunjong - Sunjong married first one of Min clan, who died young, then Queen Yun - [ [2]] and it was the crown prince who was infertile, because of the poisoning in the "coffee plot". Sunjong was succeeded by his nephew, Yi Eun, [ [3]] who was married to a member of the Japanese royalty who was thought to be infertile, Yi Pangja. Turns out she wasn't, and had two children. Her autobiographical book "The World is One", is a fascinating story. -- Dan 16:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
And by the way, it is impossible to "give the exact date, the exact name of law or order, the exact chain of command from Meiji Emperor to those who actually committed," because this incident was done in top secret. I'm sure that Japanese officials in charge of Japan's government at the time weren't stupid enough to leave evidence behind, eh?
---
I find this sentence near the end of the article to be a bit odd: "She is the only empress enshrined in Jongmyo; all other females are queens." It is not incorrect, of course, but it is odd because it would seem (at least to me) to imply that there may have been other Korean empresses, but they weren't enshrined in Jongmyo. In fact, Empress Myeongseong was the only Korean empress in history, making the quoted sentence not only unnecessary but also possibly misleading.
Also, it is probably misleading to say that Empress Myeongseong was enshrined in Jongmyo, especially for Western readers who are not familiar with Jongmyo. Is it possible that some readers might understand "enshrined" to mean "buried"? After all, it is only her spirit (or ancestral) tablet (위패) that is enshrined in Jongmyo. As the article mentions, her body was burned and was never entombed. - Suho1004
--- No, I don't think there's any problem with the word "enshrined", as it does not equate "buried", and I think it's clear enough that she is not physically buried in Jongmyo.
However, the article mentions that the name Myeongseong means "bright and shiny star". Does it? The "Seong" here is not the same word as "star" to my knowledge, or is there some hidden etymology at play? Uly 19:18, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
---
I just wonder about the obviously completely lacking security at the palace - weren't there any guards ? Is there more information to shed light on this ? Besides that i dont see anti-japanese bias in the article. The change to "empress of Korea" also makes IMHO sense.
Chris
---
I also think that this article is very pro-Queen Min and anti-Japanese. I think this article needs to have it said that Queen Min was appointed the position because her husband was too friendly with the Japanese. He was replaced by Queen Min because of her Neo-Confucian values and ultimately turned the country inwards at a time of change. She also caused the Sino-Japanese War by sending Qing troops to Korea in 1894 after the Tonghak Rebellion which was a violation of the Convention of Tientsin of 1885. She was a reactionary that ultimately help lead to the colonization of Korea. She was a patriot in some regards, but in truth Queen Min was a reactionary whos orthodox thinking led to her and her country's downfall.
Micah
To say she was a reactionary does not jibe with her bringing western technology, nor her willingness to expand relations with Russia and China. -- Dan 16:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
Queen Min was not exactly a patriot. Quite frankly, the Koreans hated her at that time, and she cared more about her political power. The Japanese killed her because she was trying to create alliance with Russia. Although this could have prevented them from forcefully annexing Korea, she did this so she could have all the power. This article never mentions the obvious flaws of Queen Min, but there is no way to justify this gory assasination of Queen Min. And her husband was not friendly with the Japanese. He would have stopped Japan from annexing Korea if he actually had a choice! This article is a bit pro-Queen Min, but is it possible to justify the fact that the Japanese had murdered an empress of Korea? Iloveayu 00:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Saying "the Koreans hated her" is way too sweeping, and not something that would hold up under serious scrutiny. The view that the dynasty was corrupt and incompetent and unpopular was promoted heavily by the Japanese at the time to people such as Theodore Roosevelt as a rationale for taking over the country. The Japanese killed her because she stood in the way of their takeover. SHe did indeed play politics, but she was in rough company - the Taewongun in paritcular. While her husband was not friendly with the Japanease and stood against the takeover, he was by no means an absolute ruler. The clan that caused particular problems was the Andong Kim family, who were enemies of both the Min and Cho families, and did what they could to undermine them. -- Dan 16:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
The date is October 8 in the gregorian calendar. "August 20" is in Chinese calendar. When writing the date in east asian history, you have to check that the calendar system. -- ChongDae 16:18, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Isn't it interesting to observe that the people who are claiming anti-Japanese bias here, who have presumably only learned from the heavily-edited Japanese history books, seem to speak with an air of denial that is probably not unlike that of people who have lived under a third-world dictatorship, like North Korea? It's surprising that for such a technologically advanced country like Japan, their education of history is about what you would expect would come from a Stalinist state that is concerned with hiding the truth and cleaning-up history. -- Atrahasis 02:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see how there is an "anti-Japanese" bias. The article is factually accurate. The unrefuted fact is that Japan's imperial government (either with or without the explicit instruction of the Japanese Emperor) did cause the assassination of a foreign head of state, cannot be in itself deemed to be "anti-Japanese". With respect to the suggestion that soliciting Chinese and Russian assistance was of no difference - let's get something straight - there is a BIG difference between being invited into Korea by the Empress, and seeking to annex the pennisula through underhanded methods like assassination. Example, the Kuwaiti's INVITED the Americans and the rest of the allies into Kuwait after they were threatened/invaded by the Iraqis in 1991, the Soviet Union INVADED Afganistan in 1978 without provocation... Perhaps a distinction which is lost on our Japanese friends... --UNSIGNED
Coming from outside either of the Koreas or Japan, I think that the first thing that must be done is for the article to be expanded. Of course she was killed, but at the moment there is a bias in as far as the page seems to focus so much on her death. If this really is a tribute then her accomplishments should be discussed in detail. I am sure that there is more than enough material available on this. However if the entire point of this article is to say that she was killed by the Japanese, then her memory is being just being used for nationalistic reasons - which is not fair on her. So I would like to ask historians on wiki with knowledge of this area to get to work on this. If we can tidy this up then perhaps we can remove the POV tag.
Also I checked the sources and couldn't find anything to suggest that the Emperor Meiji had it in for her. Thus I will re-word the allegation to make it more ambiguous, as I am sure that some people did see her as a "problem". Unless someone has the Emperor Meiji's diary that says "I wanted her gone", then perhaps it's best not to speculate so much.
On a side-note, I thought that the whole thing needs to be moved - the "Korea" bit is not necessary. How many Empress Myeongseongs were there?
please clarify what you mean by "the "Korea" bit is not necessary." It's kinda hard for me to understand what you mean. And there was only one Empress Myeongseong if you really wanted to know. 68.46.133.206 03:41, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Please can someone clarify the statements "Many Japanese found her and obstacle" and "The Japanese"? This suggests that the feelings towards her as representative of the the Japanese nation and is why this article appears biased. If the Japanese government found her an obstacle please state this.
Can we have a vote or some sort to decide whether this is really NPOV or not? That tag in front of the article can't stay there forever. mirageinred 21:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
She was a waster. It is a cause of the coup d'etat in 1882 that she did not pay pay. It is not neutrality that conceals these fact by intention. "Because Japan is bad, she is a good." This is wrong interpretations. The assassination is not vindicable. But, the assassination doesn't become a reason to praise her, too. This article beautifies her. I object to the neutrality of this article. 220.150.117.118 18 May 2006
Okay, I'm going to call both of you on those statements "she was a waster" and "it was really her power she cared about". I'd need to see citations to support her wastefulness for the first statement, and the second statement, mirageinred, is mind-reading. You cannot know what she really cared about. You're both trying to reduce a complex woman of mixed motives to something more simple.
Well, all the books I read about Korea and Queen Min never portrayed her as a patriot. The Korean TV drama based on her have been criticized by some (being Koreans) for allegedly making her look like a tragic martyr who really tried to go the distance to make Korea prosperous. And by the way if you lived in Korea when Park Chung-hee ruled, whoa. Didn't he become a dictator during the 60s to 70s? By "his daughter" do you mean that female politician in Korea? I don't know if she was his only child. mirageinred 01:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Chun Doo Hwan was way worse than Park Chung-hee, although I'm not too fond of him either. What do you mean by "despair"? Severe poverty in Korea maybe? Well going back to the original topic, I still wonder whether her portrayal of the Queen was accurate. She was a very complex figure after all. With historical documents' accuracy sometimes being questioned, it's really difficult to accurately portray her. mirageinred 01:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
regarding the title of this article, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean)#Names of monarchs would indicate this article should be called "Myeongseong of Korea." of course there can be exceptions for especially well-known individuals, but there's also a case to be made for consistency too. i don't feel strongly either way, just fyi. Appleby 08:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
i wish we could get the few korean editors to focus on this problem. it needs to be thought out much more than i've had time to do so far, but it's my understanding that "of korea" is not to distinguish the names from europeans, but to distinguish similar or same names among different kingdoms/periods of korea. "of korea" specifies that it is the korean empire period. being consistent helps editors link to articles habitually, without having to search for actual titles every time some monarch should be wikified. that's also the reason "king" "emperor" "maripgan" "queen" "empress" etc is left out. Appleby 17:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
gojong didn't investiture korea as "the great han empire" until after the sino-japanese war... also, maybe a more accurate title would be "myeongseong of joseon?" "myeongseong of yi joseon" would actually be more accurate to differentiate yi joseon from old joseon. Umetaro 22:31, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
haha 'yi' joseon is a title made up by the japanese during the WW2 its proper to call it just 'Joseon' and old Joseon as Go-Joseon man, i can see a lot of 'wapanese' on wikipedia! haha 202.37.68.150 16:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
it is true even in korea 'Joseon' is sometimes referred to as 'yi Joseon', but then again, it is influenced by japanese colonial rule period. it is proper to use 'Joseon', it is just like some older Koreans use japanese loan words such as tamanegi for onions (instead yangpa in korean), takuan for pickled radish (danmuji in korean), kopu for cup (just keop or cup in korean), toraku for truck (in korean Treok) etc and visviva, you say it was published in 1983? its VERY out of date, there has been several reforms in korea over spelling of names, proper definitions etc back in 80's, koreans used to call salad as sarada, now it is known as simply salad 139.80.123.40 15:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm protecting this briefly; I'd like to see some talking here rather than just going back and forth reversions. Is this vandalism or a dispute? -- Spangineer [es] (háblame) 18:44, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I wrote my opinion at "A neutral POV". It is clear that this article is not neutrality. 220.150.117.118 23 May 2006
I know she is thought heroines in Korea. But, it is a novel. If this item has treated the novel, I admit neutrality. I don't think the inclination to Japan about her bad side. 220.150.117.118 23 May 2006
The South Korean wrote the article based on the report of novelist Kim Jinmyeong. [4] Kim used Ishizuka-Report for the source in this report. http://www.kimsoft.com/2002/eijoh1.jpg]
Content of Ishizuka-Report.
入城シ実行ノ任ニ当シテ守備隊ノ将校兵卒ノ四門警衛止マタズ門内ニ侵入セリ殊ニ弥次馬達ハ深ク内部ニ入込ミ王妃ヲ引キ出シ二三ヶ処刃傷ニ及ヒ且ツ裸体トシ局部検査(可笑又可怒)ヲ為シ最後ニ油ヲ注キ焼失セル等誠ニ之ヲ筆ニスルニ忍ヒサルナリ其他宮内大臣ハ頗ル残酷ナル方法ヲ以テ殺害シタリト云フ右ハ士官モ(日本 国立 国会図書館憲政資料室蔵 憲政史編纂会収集文書 外交問題主要事件資料 546 朝鮮王妃事件 関係資料 546-1 標題)
The people in Korea enter the court, and made empress's corpse a stark-naked and jeered. Oil was poured and her corpse was burnt. It was a cruel scene.
A Japanese assassin raped. This is an episode of novel "Crown Princess kidnapping of Japan (2001)" that Kim wrote.-- Kamosuke 04:16, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
But I think Kim's is a famous homepage as anti-Japanese propaganda.
Hi. Mr.(Ms) Appleby! I read WP:V and The policy 1 'Articles should contain only material that has been published by' reputable sources. Are Kim's reputable sources? :-) Kamosuke showed more reputable and credibility sources. They are smoking-gun evidences. -- Lulusuke 08:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Lulusuke 08:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
See the newspaper. http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200501/200501130035.html
It's really difficult to determine what is genuine or fake. I can't and shouldn't make a statement about such matters. I came across File:Empress Myeongseong3.jpg also from a Japanese book 《朝鮮風俗風景写真帖》 though it was published in 1911 (明治44年). I thought the woman looked similar to the "court lady" photo but there might be a problem with both. In the KBS news clip, an expert on photography had guessed the "court lady" photo to have been taken around 1910 or 1920. This new photo was in the 1911 issue of the Japanese photobook. Both dates are at least a decade after Queen Min's death. If they are not the same person, then this new photo should have used a caption "明成皇后陛下" (Her majesty empress Myeongseong) and not "李王妃殿下" (Her highness Princess Yi). OK, Dan just mentioned this new photo looks like Queen Yun. I got the photo from this blog page which put this picture as Queen Min. — Nrtm81 20:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
There's certainly variety in their appearances, isn't there? I think the original source for the photos you saw on the blog, Nrtm81, is probably here [5]. I saw the news account - I wonder what made the expert think the photo dates from 1910 or later? This is a fun puzzle, I must admit. Maybe we should put up some photos of modern Min women who are descendants of Queen Min's father. My mother-in-law, who was such a person, claimed that Queen Min was "moot sengyesa" (unattractive). Since my mother-in-law wasn't born until 1914, I don't know how she knew this, but there it is ;-) -- Dan 20:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I've already asked Nrtm81, but anyone else who's reading this, see if you can interpret the date on
, most likely using the Japanese calendar but no guarantee. It's in the lower left corner and clipped off a bit. --
Dan 21:11, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Some things just can't be totally English and that is an online encyclopedia.
If everything has to be in English, then do you call Admiral Yi Sun-shin something of English translation of the Chinese characters?
What would you call Hangul? Would you call it "Han-people's writing"? (that is the Chinese characters' meaning) What about Sushi? It's an English word. Just because "Eul-mi Sa-byun" sounds foreign does not mean that it shouldn't be used. Additionally, this is an article about a Korean person. Why are Japanese Wikipedians here? A Korean biography should have Korean words unchanged. I don't want any interference. Therefore, I ask for permission (which I see no need of) to change the title of the section concerning her death to "Eul-mi Sa-byun". ( Wikimachine 14:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC))
This page is about the last Empress of Joseon, who in the eyes of many Koreans is a national heroine. She not only serves simply as a patriotic symbol of Korean independance and struggle against the atrocious Japanese colonoism, but she also serves a personal saint towards those that have struggled to find a voice in a world where people's leaderships are taken for granted. In the original text, it said she could be compared to Joan of Arc, a French national heroine that was savagely comdemned to death by the English. Empress Myeongseong is not any more different, having been brutally assinated and raped by Japanese assasins commissioned by the Japanese Imperial Government.
To even DARE saying that this article will be written based on information of Japanese textbooks is an insult, a slap in the face to any true historian/scholar/history lover.
Yes, our duty for Wiki is to have a fairly neutral viewpoint. And I will do my best to write a neutral viewpoint of the Empress but respect must be shown. Controversies about the accuracies and BIASED attitude of Japanese textbooks is infamously known throughout the world. Massive demonstrations and protests have been held in Japan, S. Korea, and China over the issue of the completely distortion of truth in Japanese history textbooks concerning the colonial period, the Rape of Nanjing, and the Empress Myeongseong. These textbooks do not even begin to acknowledge the atrocities the Japanese committed. The Asian Holocaust has been largely ignored due to the massive cover up of the Japanese. Don't you dare even think of writing this article based upon flimsy textbooks that have caused anger throughout the world. It's an issue that has been raised in international debates around the world.
This article, I repeat, will be NEUTRAL. However, how neutral can any article, even at Wiki, be? George Washington is a national hero of the U.S. but do you see the British trying to distort the truth on his military victories? Napoleon was a powerful Emperor and at times cruel but do you see the British trying to distort the truth on his strong capabilites and charm as a general in the battlefield? Do you see Germans trying to cover up the horror of Hitler?
It's time for the Japanese government to acknowledge their mistakes in the past. People MAKE mistakes. It's fine. It's called civilization. All nations committ a horror at one point in their history. I am in NO WAY justifying what ANY nation does that is at an international criminal offense level such as Germany and Japan during WWII, but I am saying that forgiveness must be shown by the victims and the afflicters must show remorse.
So be content and don't fear. Once again, this article will be AS neutral as it can be. But don't you dare write an article based upon Japanese textbooks. I will personally bring this up with the Wikipedia Adminastration if done so. If you think the previous article was biased and anti-Japanese, what makes you think you can write an article that is anti-Korean on a Korean figure from the notorious Japanese textbooks, internationally known to distort the truth?
Think again.
- the//powederoom//
This article is about Queen Min. We should not relate her appraisal with Japanese control. If one side is wrong, the other side is not necessarily right. We should not beautify Queen Min.
Appleby - while your efforts to clean up Objectman's submissions are well-intentioned, I really think Thepowderoom's submission is much better than what went before, and we should ask 1) Thepowderoom to put that version back up. 2) objectman to please not pull it but ask questions here about concerns. objectman, if that's your comment above about beatifying Queen Min, I really don't think that's what's going on. You people who are working from Japanese histories need to be aware of the distortions that are often included. Don't get defensive about it or claim to have sole possession of the truth; the distortions are a major problem with American history texts as well. --
Dan 17:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Seeing that this is an article on the life of Empress Myeongseong, I believe that anything important that occured in her reign should be included. Including her relations with the Japanese. It's not like some covered up mystery we're showing to the world all of a sudden. Her relations have been well documented by Korean and Western historians alike in recent years and just because history has shown that the relationship was indeed manipulative by the Japanese doesn't mean anyone is beautifing her. A comprehensive study on the relations between Korea and Japan was even published that I have read and am using currently to write this article. This article has numerous credible sources, from Korean historians (both, books written in English and books written in Korean) and Western historians. - the powderoom
Honestly objectman, don't try to piss me off. Secondly, don't want to be rude but you need to write better English. I could hardly understand your point other than the main theme of "It's wrong. It's biased." The truth is, she's a Korean historical figure. You saying Western history records of her day said her politics were wrong. Western history records back then considered Japan as a barbarous nation unfit for Western nations to do business with. They accused of the Chinese aristocracy of excessive incest, beastiality, etc. Western history records back then are almost as unreliable as you. What I wrote is not what I personally believe. If I was going to write about her based on my beliefs, I would have made her sound like a complete saint, no mistakes ever made and deny there's a controversy. The records I have used are incredibly reliable sources, all of them having been published in the last fifteen years. One of them was published by Harvard University Press as well. So please do your research first before criticizing. Also, please, share you sources on these mysterious Western history records you have mentioned... - the powederoom
Objectman, if you have a translated version of the trial records against the assassins of Myeongseong, share them. Please, go right ahead. The validility of those trial records, however, came under question, by the international community, not the Koreans originally. Look at it rationally. One day you have an Empress who walks, talks, and breaths. The next day, she's no where in sight and hundreds of Japanese legations troops are surrounding private quarters of Korean royalty. She doesn't show up for days and a palace normally has hundreds of staff members to run the place. Meaning there were defineatly people who saw the incident. Missing Empress? People saw people dragging people from the Empress' chambers? And killed them? Oh my.. no.. it can't be. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Why would you ever think the Empress was assassinated? Oh please. That's so biased. Just because there were eyewitness accounts, detailed reports by the assassins themselves that were given to the Japanese Minister to Seoul about the assassination, and just because the Empress has gone missing for like weeks doesn't mean at all she may have been killed. Not to mention the ravagd chambers of the Empress and burnt sections of her apartments. That's just out of the question. That's so anti-Japanese to admit a fact. Facts that are negative associated with the Japanese are all biased. Biased!
The trial was conducted and all assassins associated with the murder were tried in Japan. Not even in Joseon where the crime occurred but by the Japanese in a Japanese court. Yes, they are Japanese citizens but if the crim happened to be associated with a head of state of another country on their soul, normally it shouldn't be the responsibility of the home country of the assassins to try them. That in itself was biased, objectman. Modern international laws state that if you committ a crime in a foreign country, you are under the foreign country's laws and you are entitled to be tried in their court, not at your home country's. And yes objectman, especially if you kill the head of state.
Another thing is, there were non-Korean non-Japanese eyewitness acounts of the assassination. A Russian diplomat saw the whole thing and was so shocked, didn't know what to do. The next day, he rushed to the Russian embassy to inform his superiors but his superiors told him they had found out that morning. But confrontation between the Russians and the Japanese was not something they were looking for. They hushed him not to tell people of his version of events but in the end, he did. At the 1907 Hague Peace Conference. And ta-da! Soon afterwards, the international community demanded for a trial. A trial took place, but I've gone this over. It took place in Japan, etc.
Another problem with all of these assassins being innocent is that recently, descendants of some of the main assassins came to the tomb of Myeongseong in South Korea and publicly apologized for the assassination their ancestors had committed. Descendants themselves have admitted their crime. But the crime is a known fact throughout the world, but something that some Japanese just can't accept. Like also how they simply cannot accept the facts that they indeed committ genocide, they did indeed used comfort women, they did indeed use germ experimentation, and they did committ atrocoties. Those trial records you claim to have, show them.
One more thing. Miura Goro, the Japanese Minister to Seoul, published the official Japanese version of events fifteen years after the trial, of the assassination of Myeongseong. Even the man who ordered for the assassination admits they killed the Empress. So why can't you? It's like defending a rapist who admitted that they raped your relative. Why in the world would you do that? The evidence is there. Testimony from the supposed assasin says "We killed her." But yet you still turn a blind eye? That's not pride for one's country, that's simply stupidity.
Oh and by the way, some things can't be neutral objectman. Can you neutrally tell the events of WWII and Adolf Hitler? Can you in any shape and form tell the horror stories of the concentration camps "neutrally"? "Oh yes, and there were these homes for the Jews established in Eastern Europe. They killed them but it wasn't out of hate. But it wasn't out of love." When events in history show themselves as testimonys of evil, neutrality does not exist anymore. At that point, its a matter of morales and the sense of whats wrong and whats right. You can't neutrally discuss the genocide of Hitler and you can't neutrally discuss the genocide of the Japanese. You can't neutrally discuss the Rape of Nanjing and you can't neutrally discuss Southern slavery in the U.S. You can't neutrally discuss the burning of Joan of Arc and you can't neutrally discuss the assassination of Myeongseong. You can't neutrally discuss the brutal murders of the Romanovs. And if you're telling me right now that you can't admit historical facts about notorious events in world history, then be ashamed to even call yourself human. Because it's innate within all of us to sense whats right and whats wrong. Pride for one's country shouldn't overshadow the natural emotions and sense of judgement we are all born with in this world. After all, pride is an artificial emotion created by ourselves but to feel emotions of sad and happiness are gifts from something beyond understanding.
-- Thepowederoom 11:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
If my English is too difficult, you shouldn't be editing articles here. It's as simple as that. A certain fluency in the language should be achieved before attempting to write an entire article on someone's life history. Language is key in writing and you clearly do not have the basic capabilities in the English language to do so. And what are you talking about? Korean criminals? What are you referring too? I don't understand a thing you say and you always end every one of your not understandable arguments with Koreans distorting history or Koreans being biased. That seems to me the only thing you can properly communicate. And I simply love how you ignored my entire response to you and all you can supply with me is random rubbish about Korean criminals. Yes, ok. Korean criminals. Established that, now what? What are you trying to say? It's like I'm arguing with a wall. What's the use? I've already reported you, I just have to wait. The only thing I'm doing now is reverting the article back because you keep changing it.
This would be like me going to the Spanish wiki and trying to write an entire article about the Reconquista in Spanish, trying to justify the killings and extortion of thousands of Jews and Muslims. It just wouldn't work. -- Thepowederoom 12:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh and one more thing. I am NOT Korean. I'm a French political science student on an exchange program from the Science Po here in Los Angeles. I'm a completely non-Korean, non-Japanese person. You happen to be Japanese. I believe that in this case, I am the "neutral" aspect, no? The thing you've been arguing for, for a very long time? -- Thepowederoom 12:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are loading your own version. Your comment "the right knowledge" is revealing. It implies you have "the right knowledge" while myself and thepowderoom and others do not. Either work together with us or stop. --
Dan 16:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
...it is undeniable that his version is stylistically superior to the other.
I mean, things like
would disgrace a high-school essay. They have absolutely no place in an encyclopedia article. It doesn't even make sense: is the writer really intending to say that these people were only human "at one point in their lives"?
It seems to me that the editors need to stop this pointless revert war, stop the futile personal attacks, and work on actually writing a decent article here. And note that a "decent article" will be sourced from both Korean and Japanese histories. That's what NPOV means, isn't it? 81.178.65.121 15:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm working with Thepowderoom on the grammar, spelling, phrasing and the like. I think your critique of his style has some merit but is overstated, especially in comparison with Objectman's style, which needed much more editting to be comprehensible, let alone to be somewhat balanced. On the balance, I prefer working with thepowderoom's material. -- Dan 15:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Here are the various arguments presented, and I'll clarify who's winning on each argument.
( Wikimachine 18:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC))
To Dan.
You just have to prove.
I used not Japanese sources but Korean and American sources "in those days".
It is prejudice without a basis. Although it cannot explain in detail, the distortion of present South Korea is almost severe. However, we cannot argue, if you assert one-sided view. Your attitude is very ugly.
Where was the source? He does not show it.
The Russian eyewitnesses testified that Koreans had assassinated. For example, Karneyev(Russia General Staff Office lieutenant colonel) said, "Daewongun had related deeply to assassination of Min.
Please prove.
I have admitted Japanese participated. However, they only participated. it is not neutrality to hide intentionally the fact that Koreans participated in assassination, and to emphasize only that she was assassinated to Japanese. 218.248.20.20 07:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Minor point of clarification - most of the comments you're responding to are not mine, they're Wikimachine. I signed jsut that one line about needing good English skills to argue effectively. A point I believe you've just proven. --
Dan 20:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
ok, now that objectman has been blocked temporarily, editors interested in the topic can get serious about improving it. i'm no expert in this area, so i hope others take up the work.
but i just want to remind everyone, especially relatively new editors, that the article must be built from reliable sources, not personal knowledge or original research. for each potentially controversial sentence (think, would objectman dispute this wording?), try to provide a reputable, preferrably engligh-language, source of your information. this will help prevent later revert wars. a non-negotiable rule at wikipedia is WP:NPOV, which can be satisfied by sticking to reliable unbiased sources.
also, please note that this is not a general background article on korean history during the period. there are other specific articles that could really use some of the details now in this article. this article should be a biography of the subject, with a short pointers to the broader context.
i will be editing mainly for copyediting, flow, and brevity, but i hope others continue the work that was so rudely interrupted. Appleby 19:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, sir or madam - I'm happy to get back to work on this. --
Dan 20:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
There was some more detail on this insurrection from earlier revisions that some of our Japanese viewpoint editors thought important and that I'm willing to consider including since I can source it to Eckhardt. This includes the back pay, what Min Kyumho's position was, that sort of thing. Interest? -- Dan 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, Appleby, here's the older material. It's actually from the discussion page; I don't think it ever got into the actual article. Opinions, please, everyone:
i responded on that page, but wikipedia image policy has a steep learning curve, i've found. start with WP:IUP. Appleby 23:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
While it's good to see that the article has an extensive references section, it would be very helpful if the various claims within the body of the text could be backed up with individual citations specifically identifying the parts of those books which are being used as sources for each section. This would enable readers to verify facts for themselves more easily. — Haeleth Talk 20:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
This text has an important mistake.
This editor is writing his daydream without so much as consulting a source. 216.11.0.254 23:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph is not neutral, and it should be deleted.
This editor has written his conjecture without a reliable source. 216.11.0.254 00:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a too much modern viewpoint. Even Ann Jung-geun who killed Hitrobumi Ito was pleased with the victory of Japan in the Russo-Japanese War.
) 216.11.0.254 00:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to refute every single one of your claims. Hope you don't mind.
1) You're right, the Japanese government does not create their own textbooks. However, Japan's Ministry of Education must approve all textbooks used for all courses, including history. They create the standard curriculum from elementary to high school. On April 5, 2005, the Ministry of Education approved a revised version of their history textbooks directed towards junior high and high school that completely ignores huge segments of their history during WWII including comfort women, genocide, germ warfare, invasion of Joseon, invasion of China, etc. It has caused international controversy as it also whitewashes Japan's militaristic past. It has been vehemently condemned by people from all Asian countries that have been victimized by Japan.
2) Exactly, they don't mention Min whatsoever. Min had a major role in Asian history. And yes, she was the last hope against Japanese invasion to the Asian mainland. More details on this later but to also refute your argument that Korean textbooks do not mention Saigo Takamori is a complete lie. He is mentioned to have been one of the key figures in the Meiji Restoration and also the one who wanted to go to war with Joseon immediatly for not having recognized Meiji's new role as an Emperor with actual power. The Meiji Restoration completely gave the Emperor power he did not have before. Japan was not a unified nation before him. Shoguns ran the government and numerous people violently battled to become the shogun. The Emperor was weak and was simply a symbolic figurehead that did not play any role whatsoever in the politics of Japan. The Meiji Restoration completely changed that. So yes, Korean textbooks do mention him because he did play a role in Asian history. But nothing as big as Min who was indeed one of the last hopes before Japanese imperialistic invasion of Asia.
3) What do you mean? If masses of people are shocked and don't agree with something that is officially sanctioned by someone else, it's considered controversy. It's not a matter of opinion when it comes to correctly telling history. In the end, what needs to be said is that the textbooks are wrong, biased sources that are not reliable. If you don't think telling the truth is controversial, then you don't have a good sense of what's right and what's wrong.
1) COMPLETE lie. I recently finished writing the Myeongseong bio. Read the endings on the invasion of Joseon. The Emperor after the Meiji Restoration had considerable amounts of power. Yes, there were men who ran the government but they were sanctioned by him and all major orders were done by the Emperor, including issuing war. The other issue that Hirohito was not aware of Pearl Harbor is such complete B.S. made by the Japanese government. Please, think logically. Such large orders against independant nations cannot go by without official approval from the very top. Japan has also consitently tried to invade Korea. Korea is the gateway to Asia. Controlling the peninsula enables control over Asian mainland. Read history to find out all the numerous attempts. I'm not a history book thats going to recall every freaking event. There are simply too many that record Japan's imperialistic ambitions.
2) Queen Min was a threat from day one. She never was interested in securing Japan as the sole nation that would aid Joseon. She played Joseon off in a game of politics and Japanese intentions then were to invade Joseon. Without invading the Korean peninsula, it would be nearly impossible to invade the Asian mainland. Without a secure base that's other than the targeted nation, it would have been extremely difficult for Japant to invade the massive Chinese Empire. And with Min constantly blockading the Japanese, it became a frusteration for them. Min was also a skilled diplomat and secured Western powers. Japan was becoming furious at the prospect that they were losing in the war of securing Joseon and her death was simply the only way to achieve completely dominance over the kingdom. The Russians were just one of many incidents that Japan recognized were becoming problems.
3) Lee Wan-young is a controversial figure. One has to remember that he was one of the Progressives. The Progressives were supported by Min, up to a point. They were lated defeated with the aid of the Chinese by Min and the leaders of the Progressives fled to Japan. Japan protected them and used them to get connections within Joseon. The July 23rd invasion of the royal palaces by the Japanese forced the King under death to sign numerous documents ensuring Japan's right into running Joseon's government. By force, by military force, Japan was already in control of the government that day after threatning the King. Otori, the Japanese Minister to Seoul, replaced the current prime minister who was a relative of the Queen with Lee Wan-young, the disgraced Progressive who was banished from Joseon after causing war against the Chinese. He was a puppet used by the Japanese to gain independant proposal of annexation. So yes, technically, Joseon gave herself up. But under what circumstances? And by who? The legit King and Queen and by the legit Prime Minister or a puppet installed by the Japanese? The Japanese who invaded Joseon and paraded it as an independant nation when really it wasn't? Far as I'm concerned, the author who wrote that article said that Lee Wan-young was not born a Japanese sympathizer, but he defineatly became one at the prospect of control and power in his home nation that exiled him.
4) Ahn Jeun-geun was of course happy that Japan won! Most Koreans were, but that doesn't mean that the Koreans were supporting Japan. He supported neither countries but for him, either country getting beat was good for Joseon. He didn't believe Joseon needed either Japanese or Russian aid, but rather the U.S. So when the Japanese beat the Russians, eliminating Russian influence in Joseon, he was of course pleased. The Japanese then became a problem to be dealt with and the majority of Koreans hoped another Western power would take the Japanese on and defeat them. Also, it is true historical opinions change with time. Our modern perception of Marie Antoinette is quite different from the hate-filled perception during the French Revolution. Perceptions change, and normally for a better, non-biased, much clearer view.
So, please. Bring them on. Any more to refute? -- Thepowederoom 03:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
216.11.0.254 04:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
many Koreans believe that Emperor Meiji secretly ordered Miura Goro, the Japanese minister to Korea, to commission assassins to murder the Empress.
The Japanese Emperor did not participate in politics. Therefore, it can not think that Emperor gave a command. It is malignant impression operation to mention this text. This paragraph has to be deleted no matter how truly many Koreans think so. 216.11.0.254 04:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Umm you seriously don't read everything do you? I'm not going to waste my time refuting that one. That was already refuted in the answers I have you earlier. It's your laziness and your error not to read what someone writes you. If you're going to take the time to try to disprove something, read the other persons side thoroughly.
-- Thepowederoom 04:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I finished writing the biography today which took some time. It covered her Personal Life (Early and Late), International Rivalries, Donghak Uprising, Sino-Japanese War, the Kato Reforms, and her assassination. However, my computer decided to be just completely mean and shut down on me. I lost all of it except for a page of sources I wrote to citate everything in the bio so far which is a good thing. But I was still upset and fuming for awhile. It just took a lot of time to read all the sources and write it out.
It's going to take me awhile to finish this again and I can't spend a lot of time tommorow. I will get it done soon though.
-- Thepowederoom 04:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, thepowderoom. I'll watch for it. Bummer about the loss. Japanese kid from Oakland Schools ISPN, put a lid on it. -- Dan 15:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Empress Myeongseong/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Class B?
Exaggerated praise. There is no evidence based on first resources.-- Lulusuke 04:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC) |
Last edited at 04:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)