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In the first paragraph, see: "irrespective of Christian religious traditions." Is this possible, given the nature of socialisation? Is this desirable, given the post-modern mosaic? Is this an accurate portrayal of the EC, therefore? The "clean sheet" idea is perhaps the most dangerous ecclesial idea, giving full reign to unacknowledged paradigms. Perhaps, this is a valid critique then... Hyper3 ( talk) 13:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
The current label of "Evangelical" is highly inaccurate, and does not reflect "generous orthodoxy." The point of much EC talk is moving beyond labels in current debates, yet interested parties want to know about theological boundaries. Hence, both 'label' and post-'label' is required to reflect the debate. This is the summary introduction to what is talked about in the following pages, does each word need a footnote? Which labels are to be argued with, and why? Hyper3 ( talk) 08:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Tb ( talk) 19:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I have no objection to including anabaptist (with a little A) in the lead as well. I think the question about reformed is different. The point isn't that there are people with a charismatic background, as much that some (and why the question about "critics"? it isn't "criticism" to observe that some emergent/-ing groups have a charismatic feel) groups seem charismatic in their ethos. What we could actually use is some citation for all of these. Tb ( talk) 00:11, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Especially in the "Definitions and terminology" section, there is an over-use of quotes. Basically, it strings together a list of quotes rather than synthesizing the information and presenting it in an encyclopedic fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.63.141 ( talk) 21:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
This entire section is a bit of a mess. I've merged and cleaned a few subsections, but lots remains to be done. The original author appears to have summarized and represented the arguments of a few sources to fill up space. It's buzzword heavy, unsubstantiated, and tendentious. For example, are there other Christians who desire to imitate the life of Jesus, transform secular society, live communally, welcome outsiders, and be generous and creative? If so, how can these values be specific to the emerging church?
What do y'all think can be done about this section? TrickyApron ( talk) 19:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Spotfixer ( talk) is disgruntled in an edit war over the Rick Warren and Saddleback pages, and is currently engaged in disruptive edits of this page. He is currently reverting consolidation, dead-link removal and link consolidation as undoing "whitewashing". Unless he takes an active part on the topic of the Emerging Church, one may assume his edits are part of his tantrum over the Rick Warren page.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 00:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Hepp! I littered the section "Criticism" with more {{who}}, {{huh}} and {{fact}} that I've done for a very long long time. Simply put: the section makes me depressed by it's fuzziness, and the weasely way that it tries to paint the picture of impending doom onto the Emerging Church trend. Let's say it this way: fundamentalism was a reaction against emerging modernism in the church, the emerging church is a reaction against fundamentalism. The reaction against the emerging church should be defined in such a way as to explain:
The current text in the Criticism should, as fast as possible, be replaced so that extremely bad sentences such as the absolutely horrid:
It's hard to imagine the way thinking of an author of such a statement. ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 10:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to add some input into the page about centered set membership. This is what I wrote, but I was told that it did not fit in so please feel free to edit or give details as to what would be an acceptable entry into the Emerging church page
The movement appropriates set theory as a means of understanding a basic change in the way the Christian church thinks about itself as a group. Set theory is a concept in mathematics that allows an understanding of what numbers belong to a group, or set. A bounded set would describe a group with clear "in" and "out" definitions of membership. The Christian church has largely organized itself as a bounded set, those who share the same beliefs and values are in the set and those who disagree are outside. [1]
The centered set does not limit membership to pre-conceived boundaries. Instead a centered set is conditioned on a centered point. Membership is contingent on those who are moving toward that point. The set is now dependent on relation to an extrinsic point. Elements moving toward that point are part of the set, elements moving away from that point are outside of the set. As a centered-set Christian membership would be dependent on moving toward the central point of Jesus. A Christian is then defined by their focus and movement toward Christ rather than a limited set of shared beliefs and values. [2]
John Wimber utilized the centered set understanding of membership in his Vineyard Churches. The centered set theory of Christian Churches came largely from missional anthropologist Paul Hiebert. The centered set understanding of membership allows for a clear vision of the focal point, the ability to move toward that point without being tied down to smaller diversions, a sense of total egalitarianism with respect for differing opinions, and an authority moved from individual members to the existing center. [3]
References
This section is odd to say the least... firstly, it is completely US-centric - Ian Mobsby and Stuart Murray are quoted in the article yet not listed as voices, nor are Alan Hirsch or Mike Frost from Australia, Steve Taylor from NZ, Dave Tomlinson, Kester Brewin or Pete Rollins from the UK etc. There was once a very good list of voices, not having been here for a while I was very surprised to see such an inadequate list. secondly, the final two "voices" are new to me and their wikipedia articles give little reason for them to be included here?
Similarly the listed Churches does not represent the Emerging Church well. Churches like Moot (London), Sanctus1 (Manchester), COTA (Seattle), Solomons Porch, Ikon (Belfast) are far better known within Emerging Church circles. Thanks Mark
There is no warrant to add Heresy as a category. EVERY religious movement within Christianity can be classified 'heresy' by another movement. Just because Google searches can link the two (particularly since most of the sources are Reformed blogs) is no justification.
By definition, "heresy" is based on the degree (or lack) of orthodoxy of a particular belief. The emerging church is a broad category that encompasses a number of beliefs (on which there is no agreed 'set'). Now - if you want to choose a specific belief and tag it as heresy (with ample documentation), feel free to go to the page for that specific belief (ex: antinomianism) and tag it as such. However, tagging a particular movement as heresy is contrary to the definition of the word, and - without ample documentation - inflammatory.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 21:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
No reversions necessary - you've NOT proven anything (except, perhaps, that it's time to remove the poorly-sourced section you've cited). You cannot say "this is the ECM's view of X..." by the very nature of the movement, so tagging "see also: Heresy" is just as unneeded in this article as it is in the Calvinism article.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 22:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
It does not seem so. If we get additional opinions, I'm willing to discuss, but I think Hyper3 summed up my thoughts. I think New religious movement could work, if you wanted to add it, though.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 19:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I removed the section about the Emerging movement being "syncrestistic", the only reference in that section was to a book about post-modern Christianity published in 1994 which does not deal with this movement. The criticism has certainly been made about many post-modern religious movements (and rightly so in my opinion) but I doubt that any source would make this claim, especially any credible source. Also, I think the word intended is "syncretic", but now I'm just splitting hairs. Paddingtonjbear ( talk) 08:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I wonder how possible it is to de-weasel this article. The Emerging church is by definition difficult to define and lacks consensus. I've added a couple of citations to support valid claims, but I'm not comfortable removing the weasel words and I'm not entirely sure they should be removed. Anyone else have an opinion on this? There are only a few missing citations left in the Definitions and Terminology section, one of which I think is really original research (although I do think it is a valid claim). Paddingtonjbear ( talk) 09:03, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This article has become a recent cite of edit warring. This is not ok. Anonymous IP editors and single use accounts have been churning it, by constantly deleting and re-adding text which either is designed to make McLaren look good, or bad. Problematic is that these edits are done without any edit history at all. I am deleting the controversy section, and it can be re-added only when there is agreement on what it should say. Please discuss it here, and not by back-and-forth on the article. Tb ( talk) 22:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Some principles:
Tb ( talk) 22:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
The grammar issues in this section make it nearly unreadable. Perhaps the worst example is "Emerging Churches, draw on this synthetic model or transcendent model of contextual theology, seek to have a high view towards the Bible and the Christian people, as well as having a high view of culture, humanity, and justice." Also confusing is the passage "The Emerging Church has charged many Conservative Evangelical Churches of withdrawal from involvement from contextual mission and seeking contextualisation of the gospel."
Of lesser concern is the question of spelling of certain words, eg. criticised v criticized. A change to be consistent with the overall style of the English wikipedia would improve readability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.210.8 ( talk) 10:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
In the emerging church article, a statement in the intro describe the emerging movement that "transcends such "modernist" labels of "conservative" and "liberal," calling the movement, a "conversation" to emphasize its developing and decentralized nature, its vast range of standpoints and its commitment to dialogue."
Thus, in the intro paragraph, neither liberal nor conservative should be used as labels to describe the movement. These labels are broad, and under the emerging church movement are both "liberal" and "conservative" leaning voices with regards to theology and politics. Liberal Christianity has a more specific meaning within the 20th century.
What exactly is Emergent Village? Multiple external links to one website only, no article about it on wikipedia, and no description of it in this article. As a result, I have no clue what it is, how it does or does not relate to the emerging church, or why I might care. Which makes it seem like some petty grudge carried over to wikipedia, complete with shameless self-promotion. Clarify and source it or dump it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.252.52.125 ( talk) 02:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Under the section Definitions and Terminology, subsection Similar Labels, there is an issue with the last paragraph which begins "Marcus Borg defines..." The quotation marks in the paragraph leave it unclear which words Borg said and which words are not his. Will someone refer back to the cited source to determine where the quotations ought to go? Thank you. Ultimateteddy ( talk) 15:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)Ultimateteddy
Encountering this page, it seemed to me that it was essentially a long advertisement for the movement it described; so I looked at the Talk page. I see that there was once a Controversy section but that this had become a battleground, and so it was deleted until there could be some agreement on what to put in it.
This seems reasonable, but it doesn't seem to have been followed up. As I am not an expert on the topic, could I appeal to the supporters of "emerging" Christianity to propose a summary of criticisms? They probably know the range of things being said. Aardwolf ( talk) 18:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Having just read thru the article, it seems as tho argument and controversy is not in the lexicon of the emerging church. Humility and charity replace disagreement. Seems to me that the center cannot hold. Washi ( talk) 15:09, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
But this problem of 'non-agreement' or dispute is the profound problem of wikipedia. Wikipedia relies on consensus even if that is achieved via attrition and an editing war. Information only has meaning when it's organised via a critical argument - that is the difference between data/information and 'knowledge' which is what any Encyclopaedia claims to offer - not just data, but knowledge. The only material that is interesting and even important is that which is highly contested. Let us see the arguments about what this movement is - and know that the very presence of contestation means that it is meaningful: it is important, and therefore worthy of consideration. Wikipedia is full of meaningless sh*t. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.170.205.49 ( talk) 16:36, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Seem to be a heavy weighting of reviewers of the movement rather than source documents. There are often statements in this article that seem to be reactions to something. There are references to DA Carson in the terminology section who appears to be a critic of the movement (though a "fair and balanced" one per one Amazon reviewer). There is some theological goobledy-gook (at least this MDiv cannot understand it). Can we mark this as potentially biased? rchaswms 04:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
It seems this article is pretty one sided for an issue that is quite controversial in Christianity. There should be a section or perhaps another article addressing controversy with the idea of the emergent church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.222.95.59 ( talk) 23:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
These things flare up from time to time, but it appears there are some (one?) new editor(s) with the desire to insert Brian McLaren (who only speaks for a small subset of the American Emergent stream, not the Emerging Church Movement) and Rob Bell (who has always claimed to not be part of the ECM at all) and the topic of homosexuality into the article. These don't really belong in this article, let alone this section. The John MacArthur quote recently inserted here probably doesn't belong, either, since it is about Emergent Village and not the ECM, itself, which MacArthur's book almost completely ignores (though his language confusingly, for the causal reader, conflates the two at times).
Before we go trying to insert these things in the article at random points, it would be best to discuss them here.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 23:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
It might be worthwhile just to create an Emergent Village article, separate from the Emerging Church article, since it seems to be the lightning rod for controversy within the Reformed Blogosphere and their favorite authors (MacArthur, Piper, etc.).-- Lyonscc ( talk) 23:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
According to many published sources, Emergent and Brian MacLaren are an important part of the emerging church movement (different to a denomination, I understand). According to Driscoll, MacLaren's position is one of three important theological locations within the movement. Therefore he must be in the article. You can nuance each insertion by adding context if you like, but I don't think you can revert referenced material base on your own original research and opinions, eloquent as they are. The article as it stands has very little reference to the debates, and is therefore very one-sided. Hyper3 ( talk) 20:29, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
I can request an arbitration, if you would prefer.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 02:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Hyper/Lyons - please suggest where EC leader's views on homosexuality - which differ markedly from those in traditional evangelical churches - could be inserted in this article Journalist492 ( talk) 20:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. I have put relevant comments on Rob Bell and Brian McLaren 22:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Journalist492 ( talk • contribs)
Apologizing in advance if I have not posted this in the correct manner or in the correct place.
This is a fascinating topic. The article is unreadable and boring. How can that be? It is as if someone tried to use the most vague, polysyllabic language to discourage any vibrancy of communication and make the whole topic uninteresting.
Yet what could be more interesting than a spontaneous regeneration of Christian ideas taking new forms and new shapes, outside the control of churches?
Oh, well. Not trying to be a troll here. Just saying. I am a lifelong devotee of these subjects and I have 2 graduate degrees and I gave up after reading a couple of paragraphs and scanning the rest. Not worth trying to find the nuggets of meaning buried in the bad writing. Allison14 ( talk) 17:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
This article is a lot of fulsome spam. It does not mention the bad logic and bad morals of the alleged church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.10.231 ( talk) 14:06, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
The "See Also" link to Narnia is irrelevant. Narnia is a set of fantasy writings from another historical period than the Emerging or Emergent church. There is no demonstration of significant influence one way or another. Recommendation: Delete the "See As" Narnia link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.30.82 ( talk) 22:28, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I think some section on WHY there IS such a thing as POST-Evangelicalism, where Christendom's histories have seen a broad array of operational uses of the word 'Evangelical' - and groups called 'The Evangelical Church' in Deutschland are broadly different from how most Americans reframe what is coming from what is called 'Evangelical' in America.
The late Dr. Francis Schaeffer had talked often of living in a post-Christian world. Is there a body of reflection on energetic efforts to salvage the word 'Evangelical' for current, contemporary usage? MaynardClark ( talk) 22:38, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Emerging church/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Article is often a series of antithetical statements by proponents and critics of the 'emerging church', whatever it is. Needs work to provide information rather than argumentation. Good set of headings. |
Last edited at 02:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 14:25, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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No. No no no. Post-modernism leaves no space for logos. You're all asleep, folks. Wake up! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:12C1:44F5:98AD:A0F2:DC8D:827E ( talk) 03:07, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Hi @ PlaidRadish:
I was editing this article a few days ago. It needed some disambiguation of links, and since I was there, I attended to some reformatting, fixing dead links, and so on. One thing I thought it was in dire need of was a more enlightening lead that summarised the article as a whole: I did a kind of rough-and-ready job on that, using existing material.
Today, when I was researching and thinking about how to improve the article a bit more, looking through past edits, I saw your July changes to the article. Before I bumble in and make more wholesale changes, I'm hoping you will help me understand some aspects of your edit. There are things I'm not really sure about.
For example, why remove a dead-linked citation that had an archive link, replacing it with to a bare-url citation to the same deadlink, as here?
See article written by Steve Collins at http://www.alternativeworship.org/definitions_awec.html"
or, again, this:
http://emergingchurch.info/reflection/ianmobsby/theology.htm"
Another example: Is there a purpose behind changing the preexisting {{ blockquote}}s formats to {{ quotation}}s?
And, most especially, it's not completely clear why some deletions of sourced material were made.
There are several other queries I have. I can see that you edit fairly infrequently, so posting this on the article talk page, in case other editors have some ideas about improving the article. Hope to hear from you. Thanks, AukusRuckus ( talk) 08:20, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
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In the first paragraph, see: "irrespective of Christian religious traditions." Is this possible, given the nature of socialisation? Is this desirable, given the post-modern mosaic? Is this an accurate portrayal of the EC, therefore? The "clean sheet" idea is perhaps the most dangerous ecclesial idea, giving full reign to unacknowledged paradigms. Perhaps, this is a valid critique then... Hyper3 ( talk) 13:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
The current label of "Evangelical" is highly inaccurate, and does not reflect "generous orthodoxy." The point of much EC talk is moving beyond labels in current debates, yet interested parties want to know about theological boundaries. Hence, both 'label' and post-'label' is required to reflect the debate. This is the summary introduction to what is talked about in the following pages, does each word need a footnote? Which labels are to be argued with, and why? Hyper3 ( talk) 08:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Tb ( talk) 19:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I have no objection to including anabaptist (with a little A) in the lead as well. I think the question about reformed is different. The point isn't that there are people with a charismatic background, as much that some (and why the question about "critics"? it isn't "criticism" to observe that some emergent/-ing groups have a charismatic feel) groups seem charismatic in their ethos. What we could actually use is some citation for all of these. Tb ( talk) 00:11, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Especially in the "Definitions and terminology" section, there is an over-use of quotes. Basically, it strings together a list of quotes rather than synthesizing the information and presenting it in an encyclopedic fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.63.141 ( talk) 21:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
This entire section is a bit of a mess. I've merged and cleaned a few subsections, but lots remains to be done. The original author appears to have summarized and represented the arguments of a few sources to fill up space. It's buzzword heavy, unsubstantiated, and tendentious. For example, are there other Christians who desire to imitate the life of Jesus, transform secular society, live communally, welcome outsiders, and be generous and creative? If so, how can these values be specific to the emerging church?
What do y'all think can be done about this section? TrickyApron ( talk) 19:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Spotfixer ( talk) is disgruntled in an edit war over the Rick Warren and Saddleback pages, and is currently engaged in disruptive edits of this page. He is currently reverting consolidation, dead-link removal and link consolidation as undoing "whitewashing". Unless he takes an active part on the topic of the Emerging Church, one may assume his edits are part of his tantrum over the Rick Warren page.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 00:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Hepp! I littered the section "Criticism" with more {{who}}, {{huh}} and {{fact}} that I've done for a very long long time. Simply put: the section makes me depressed by it's fuzziness, and the weasely way that it tries to paint the picture of impending doom onto the Emerging Church trend. Let's say it this way: fundamentalism was a reaction against emerging modernism in the church, the emerging church is a reaction against fundamentalism. The reaction against the emerging church should be defined in such a way as to explain:
The current text in the Criticism should, as fast as possible, be replaced so that extremely bad sentences such as the absolutely horrid:
It's hard to imagine the way thinking of an author of such a statement. ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 10:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to add some input into the page about centered set membership. This is what I wrote, but I was told that it did not fit in so please feel free to edit or give details as to what would be an acceptable entry into the Emerging church page
The movement appropriates set theory as a means of understanding a basic change in the way the Christian church thinks about itself as a group. Set theory is a concept in mathematics that allows an understanding of what numbers belong to a group, or set. A bounded set would describe a group with clear "in" and "out" definitions of membership. The Christian church has largely organized itself as a bounded set, those who share the same beliefs and values are in the set and those who disagree are outside. [1]
The centered set does not limit membership to pre-conceived boundaries. Instead a centered set is conditioned on a centered point. Membership is contingent on those who are moving toward that point. The set is now dependent on relation to an extrinsic point. Elements moving toward that point are part of the set, elements moving away from that point are outside of the set. As a centered-set Christian membership would be dependent on moving toward the central point of Jesus. A Christian is then defined by their focus and movement toward Christ rather than a limited set of shared beliefs and values. [2]
John Wimber utilized the centered set understanding of membership in his Vineyard Churches. The centered set theory of Christian Churches came largely from missional anthropologist Paul Hiebert. The centered set understanding of membership allows for a clear vision of the focal point, the ability to move toward that point without being tied down to smaller diversions, a sense of total egalitarianism with respect for differing opinions, and an authority moved from individual members to the existing center. [3]
References
This section is odd to say the least... firstly, it is completely US-centric - Ian Mobsby and Stuart Murray are quoted in the article yet not listed as voices, nor are Alan Hirsch or Mike Frost from Australia, Steve Taylor from NZ, Dave Tomlinson, Kester Brewin or Pete Rollins from the UK etc. There was once a very good list of voices, not having been here for a while I was very surprised to see such an inadequate list. secondly, the final two "voices" are new to me and their wikipedia articles give little reason for them to be included here?
Similarly the listed Churches does not represent the Emerging Church well. Churches like Moot (London), Sanctus1 (Manchester), COTA (Seattle), Solomons Porch, Ikon (Belfast) are far better known within Emerging Church circles. Thanks Mark
There is no warrant to add Heresy as a category. EVERY religious movement within Christianity can be classified 'heresy' by another movement. Just because Google searches can link the two (particularly since most of the sources are Reformed blogs) is no justification.
By definition, "heresy" is based on the degree (or lack) of orthodoxy of a particular belief. The emerging church is a broad category that encompasses a number of beliefs (on which there is no agreed 'set'). Now - if you want to choose a specific belief and tag it as heresy (with ample documentation), feel free to go to the page for that specific belief (ex: antinomianism) and tag it as such. However, tagging a particular movement as heresy is contrary to the definition of the word, and - without ample documentation - inflammatory.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 21:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
No reversions necessary - you've NOT proven anything (except, perhaps, that it's time to remove the poorly-sourced section you've cited). You cannot say "this is the ECM's view of X..." by the very nature of the movement, so tagging "see also: Heresy" is just as unneeded in this article as it is in the Calvinism article.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 22:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
It does not seem so. If we get additional opinions, I'm willing to discuss, but I think Hyper3 summed up my thoughts. I think New religious movement could work, if you wanted to add it, though.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 19:23, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I removed the section about the Emerging movement being "syncrestistic", the only reference in that section was to a book about post-modern Christianity published in 1994 which does not deal with this movement. The criticism has certainly been made about many post-modern religious movements (and rightly so in my opinion) but I doubt that any source would make this claim, especially any credible source. Also, I think the word intended is "syncretic", but now I'm just splitting hairs. Paddingtonjbear ( talk) 08:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I wonder how possible it is to de-weasel this article. The Emerging church is by definition difficult to define and lacks consensus. I've added a couple of citations to support valid claims, but I'm not comfortable removing the weasel words and I'm not entirely sure they should be removed. Anyone else have an opinion on this? There are only a few missing citations left in the Definitions and Terminology section, one of which I think is really original research (although I do think it is a valid claim). Paddingtonjbear ( talk) 09:03, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This article has become a recent cite of edit warring. This is not ok. Anonymous IP editors and single use accounts have been churning it, by constantly deleting and re-adding text which either is designed to make McLaren look good, or bad. Problematic is that these edits are done without any edit history at all. I am deleting the controversy section, and it can be re-added only when there is agreement on what it should say. Please discuss it here, and not by back-and-forth on the article. Tb ( talk) 22:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Some principles:
Tb ( talk) 22:56, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
The grammar issues in this section make it nearly unreadable. Perhaps the worst example is "Emerging Churches, draw on this synthetic model or transcendent model of contextual theology, seek to have a high view towards the Bible and the Christian people, as well as having a high view of culture, humanity, and justice." Also confusing is the passage "The Emerging Church has charged many Conservative Evangelical Churches of withdrawal from involvement from contextual mission and seeking contextualisation of the gospel."
Of lesser concern is the question of spelling of certain words, eg. criticised v criticized. A change to be consistent with the overall style of the English wikipedia would improve readability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.210.8 ( talk) 10:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
In the emerging church article, a statement in the intro describe the emerging movement that "transcends such "modernist" labels of "conservative" and "liberal," calling the movement, a "conversation" to emphasize its developing and decentralized nature, its vast range of standpoints and its commitment to dialogue."
Thus, in the intro paragraph, neither liberal nor conservative should be used as labels to describe the movement. These labels are broad, and under the emerging church movement are both "liberal" and "conservative" leaning voices with regards to theology and politics. Liberal Christianity has a more specific meaning within the 20th century.
What exactly is Emergent Village? Multiple external links to one website only, no article about it on wikipedia, and no description of it in this article. As a result, I have no clue what it is, how it does or does not relate to the emerging church, or why I might care. Which makes it seem like some petty grudge carried over to wikipedia, complete with shameless self-promotion. Clarify and source it or dump it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.252.52.125 ( talk) 02:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Under the section Definitions and Terminology, subsection Similar Labels, there is an issue with the last paragraph which begins "Marcus Borg defines..." The quotation marks in the paragraph leave it unclear which words Borg said and which words are not his. Will someone refer back to the cited source to determine where the quotations ought to go? Thank you. Ultimateteddy ( talk) 15:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)Ultimateteddy
Encountering this page, it seemed to me that it was essentially a long advertisement for the movement it described; so I looked at the Talk page. I see that there was once a Controversy section but that this had become a battleground, and so it was deleted until there could be some agreement on what to put in it.
This seems reasonable, but it doesn't seem to have been followed up. As I am not an expert on the topic, could I appeal to the supporters of "emerging" Christianity to propose a summary of criticisms? They probably know the range of things being said. Aardwolf ( talk) 18:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
Having just read thru the article, it seems as tho argument and controversy is not in the lexicon of the emerging church. Humility and charity replace disagreement. Seems to me that the center cannot hold. Washi ( talk) 15:09, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
But this problem of 'non-agreement' or dispute is the profound problem of wikipedia. Wikipedia relies on consensus even if that is achieved via attrition and an editing war. Information only has meaning when it's organised via a critical argument - that is the difference between data/information and 'knowledge' which is what any Encyclopaedia claims to offer - not just data, but knowledge. The only material that is interesting and even important is that which is highly contested. Let us see the arguments about what this movement is - and know that the very presence of contestation means that it is meaningful: it is important, and therefore worthy of consideration. Wikipedia is full of meaningless sh*t. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.170.205.49 ( talk) 16:36, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Seem to be a heavy weighting of reviewers of the movement rather than source documents. There are often statements in this article that seem to be reactions to something. There are references to DA Carson in the terminology section who appears to be a critic of the movement (though a "fair and balanced" one per one Amazon reviewer). There is some theological goobledy-gook (at least this MDiv cannot understand it). Can we mark this as potentially biased? rchaswms 04:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
It seems this article is pretty one sided for an issue that is quite controversial in Christianity. There should be a section or perhaps another article addressing controversy with the idea of the emergent church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.222.95.59 ( talk) 23:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
These things flare up from time to time, but it appears there are some (one?) new editor(s) with the desire to insert Brian McLaren (who only speaks for a small subset of the American Emergent stream, not the Emerging Church Movement) and Rob Bell (who has always claimed to not be part of the ECM at all) and the topic of homosexuality into the article. These don't really belong in this article, let alone this section. The John MacArthur quote recently inserted here probably doesn't belong, either, since it is about Emergent Village and not the ECM, itself, which MacArthur's book almost completely ignores (though his language confusingly, for the causal reader, conflates the two at times).
Before we go trying to insert these things in the article at random points, it would be best to discuss them here.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 23:40, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
It might be worthwhile just to create an Emergent Village article, separate from the Emerging Church article, since it seems to be the lightning rod for controversy within the Reformed Blogosphere and their favorite authors (MacArthur, Piper, etc.).-- Lyonscc ( talk) 23:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
According to many published sources, Emergent and Brian MacLaren are an important part of the emerging church movement (different to a denomination, I understand). According to Driscoll, MacLaren's position is one of three important theological locations within the movement. Therefore he must be in the article. You can nuance each insertion by adding context if you like, but I don't think you can revert referenced material base on your own original research and opinions, eloquent as they are. The article as it stands has very little reference to the debates, and is therefore very one-sided. Hyper3 ( talk) 20:29, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
I can request an arbitration, if you would prefer.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 02:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Hyper/Lyons - please suggest where EC leader's views on homosexuality - which differ markedly from those in traditional evangelical churches - could be inserted in this article Journalist492 ( talk) 20:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. I have put relevant comments on Rob Bell and Brian McLaren 22:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Journalist492 ( talk • contribs)
Apologizing in advance if I have not posted this in the correct manner or in the correct place.
This is a fascinating topic. The article is unreadable and boring. How can that be? It is as if someone tried to use the most vague, polysyllabic language to discourage any vibrancy of communication and make the whole topic uninteresting.
Yet what could be more interesting than a spontaneous regeneration of Christian ideas taking new forms and new shapes, outside the control of churches?
Oh, well. Not trying to be a troll here. Just saying. I am a lifelong devotee of these subjects and I have 2 graduate degrees and I gave up after reading a couple of paragraphs and scanning the rest. Not worth trying to find the nuggets of meaning buried in the bad writing. Allison14 ( talk) 17:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
This article is a lot of fulsome spam. It does not mention the bad logic and bad morals of the alleged church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.10.231 ( talk) 14:06, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
The "See Also" link to Narnia is irrelevant. Narnia is a set of fantasy writings from another historical period than the Emerging or Emergent church. There is no demonstration of significant influence one way or another. Recommendation: Delete the "See As" Narnia link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.30.82 ( talk) 22:28, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I think some section on WHY there IS such a thing as POST-Evangelicalism, where Christendom's histories have seen a broad array of operational uses of the word 'Evangelical' - and groups called 'The Evangelical Church' in Deutschland are broadly different from how most Americans reframe what is coming from what is called 'Evangelical' in America.
The late Dr. Francis Schaeffer had talked often of living in a post-Christian world. Is there a body of reflection on energetic efforts to salvage the word 'Evangelical' for current, contemporary usage? MaynardClark ( talk) 22:38, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Emerging church/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Article is often a series of antithetical statements by proponents and critics of the 'emerging church', whatever it is. Needs work to provide information rather than argumentation. Good set of headings. |
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No. No no no. Post-modernism leaves no space for logos. You're all asleep, folks. Wake up! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:12C1:44F5:98AD:A0F2:DC8D:827E ( talk) 03:07, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Hi @ PlaidRadish:
I was editing this article a few days ago. It needed some disambiguation of links, and since I was there, I attended to some reformatting, fixing dead links, and so on. One thing I thought it was in dire need of was a more enlightening lead that summarised the article as a whole: I did a kind of rough-and-ready job on that, using existing material.
Today, when I was researching and thinking about how to improve the article a bit more, looking through past edits, I saw your July changes to the article. Before I bumble in and make more wholesale changes, I'm hoping you will help me understand some aspects of your edit. There are things I'm not really sure about.
For example, why remove a dead-linked citation that had an archive link, replacing it with to a bare-url citation to the same deadlink, as here?
See article written by Steve Collins at http://www.alternativeworship.org/definitions_awec.html"
or, again, this:
http://emergingchurch.info/reflection/ianmobsby/theology.htm"
Another example: Is there a purpose behind changing the preexisting {{ blockquote}}s formats to {{ quotation}}s?
And, most especially, it's not completely clear why some deletions of sourced material were made.
There are several other queries I have. I can see that you edit fairly infrequently, so posting this on the article talk page, in case other editors have some ideas about improving the article. Hope to hear from you. Thanks, AukusRuckus ( talk) 08:20, 18 August 2023 (UTC)